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    Eighth Chevron: Specifics

    This is a thread to discuss speculation on the function of the eighth chevron: it is well established that the eighth chevron is used to connect to Stargates in other galaxies, but the specifics are quite vague.

    For example, is the eighth chevron a "galaxy code" that transcribes a local address to another galaxy? Is each eight-chevron address a whole galaxy or a galaxy-sized region? Nothing conclusive has been said on the issue.



    Anyway, here are some of my thoughts on the issue:
    Originally posted by Quadhelix View Post
    Let us consider the following possibility:

    A. Seven-chevron addresses code for "planets."
    B. Eight-chevron addresses code for "galaxies."
    C. Nine-chevron addresses code for "superclusters." (not relevant)

    The Milky Way galaxy has a volume of about 78.5 trillion cubic light-years; since there are 1,987,690,320 seven-chevron addresses, each one codes for a region with a volume of about 40,000 cubic light-years.

    If we take a region with roughly the same volume as the Milky Way and call that region an eight chevron address, we find that the set of all 6,3606,090,240 eight-chevron address covers a volume of about five septillion cubic light-years; if this region were a sphere, it would have a radius of roughly 100 million light-years.
    This is interesting because the Local Supercluster is just about 110 million light-years in diameter.


    In another thread related to this issue (here), the objection was raised that, in "The Pegasus Project," they used the eighth chevron to connect to a Stargate near the "Supergate," rather than to Earth. They raise a valid point that it might be possible to dial specific 'Gates in a galaxy.

    However, a counterpoint is present in the numbers that I presented above. If we take each address as a cube, then the Milky Way would have to contain several eight-chevron addresses: a cube with 78.5 trillion cubic light-years (the volume used in the above calculations) would have a length/width/height of about 43,000 light-years, which is a little less than half the diameter of the Milky Way. This means that the Milky Way would have at least four eight-chevron addresses within it, even if each eight-chevron address stood for a single "galaxy."

    Thus, even if we take eight-chevron addresses to be roughly galaxy-sized, it is still quite possible to dial different regions in a large galaxy like the Milky Way.



    Another objection raised to the eight-chevron address="galaxy" idea is the Priors, namely that they were able to reach specific planets. However, such an objection is so heavily steeped in assumption and self-contradiction as to be absurd.

    Firstly, it assumes that Ori Stargates use anything even remotely similar to chevrons. This assumption is rather unfounded: we have never even seen an Ori Stargate, so we have no way of knowing whether it uses chevrons or not. The Supergate certainly did not use chevrons.

    Second, it assumes that if an Ori Stargate uses chevrons, that those chevrons must work the same way as the chevrons used by the Ancients' Stargates. This assumption is a bit more reasonable, but still not guaranteed.

    Third, and probably most importantly, it is self-contradictory. If you make the assumption that the chevrons on an Ori Stargate work the same way as on an Ancient Stargate, then there is absolutely no way that a "galaxy code" eighth chevron could be used to reach the Milky Way. The Local Group is the ~40 galaxies closest to the Milky Way. A BC-304 powered a ZPM (like the Odyssey) could reach any of those galaxies in a matter of days, as the Local Group is only about 10 million light-years across and the Milky Way is fairly close to the center of it.

    Thus, if the Ori Galaxy were in the Local Group, there would have been no need for a Supergate: it would have taken them only a few days to get here. If the Ori Galaxy were in a nearby group or cluster, the same argument holds: it would have taken them only a few weeks at most to reach the Milky Way. However, unless Ori Stargates have hundreds of symbols, the Ori Galaxy would have to be in one of the nearby groups of galaxies in order for their eighth chevron to be a "galaxy code."



    I am not, of course, saying that any of this disproves, per se, the idea that the eighth chevron is not a "galaxy code." Indeed, most of what I just wrote was a refutation of arguments "proving" that the eighth chevron is a "galaxy code," rather than an actual argument that it should be something else.
    "From East Middle School. Suzumiya Haruhi. I have no interest in ordinary humans. If there are any aliens, time travelers, sliders, or espers here, come join me."
    - The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya; Best Character Introduction Ever.

    "And can we lose the ten thousand year old dead plants?!"
    - Stargate: Atlantis (1x03) "Hide and Seek"

    "Hammerheads do not load/unload units immediately – they must descend to ground level first. Initial experiments involving jump-jetting infantry into the Hammerhead’s cargo compartment met with unfortunate results."
    - Command&Conquer 3: Kane's Wrath Hammerhead Unit Spotlight

    #2
    Originally posted by Quadhelix View Post
    Another objection raised to the eight-chevron address="galaxy" idea is the Priors, namely that they were able to reach specific planets. However, such an objection is so heavily steeped in assumption and self-contradiction as to be absurd.

    Firstly, it assumes that Ori Stargates use anything even remotely similar to chevrons. This assumption is rather unfounded: we have never even seen an Ori Stargate, so we have no way of knowing whether it uses chevrons or not. The Supergate certainly did not use chevrons.

    Second, it assumes that if an Ori Stargate uses chevrons, that those chevrons must work the same way as the chevrons used by the Ancients' Stargates. This assumption is a bit more reasonable, but still not guaranteed.

    Third, and probably most importantly, it is self-contradictory. If you make the assumption that the chevrons on an Ori Stargate work the same way as on an Ancient Stargate, then there is absolutely no way that a "galaxy code" eighth chevron could be used to reach the Milky Way. The Local Group is the ~40 galaxies closest to the Milky Way. A BC-304 powered a ZPM (like the Odyssey) could reach any of those galaxies in a matter of days, as the Local Group is only about 10 million light-years across and the Milky Way is fairly close to the center of it.
    Well, I'd say the first two assumptions are pretty good assumptions based on the fact that we know the Alterans were designing the stargates before they fled their home galaxy. Orlin said that the Alterans believed in science and the Ori we religious nuts so if the Ori already had the Alteran stargate schematics why would they go ahead and build a completely new system? We know that the Ori home galaxy still relied on ring transporters for short range transportation whereas the Ancients eventually developed beam transporters which seems to suggest that the Ori stop developing new technology to pursue their religious beliefs after the Alterans left. Even though the ascended Ori used their knowledge to develop the supergate, I think it's very likely that the heart of the normal stargate design would have been very similar to the Milky Way stargates although it would have been possible for the Ori to modify their stargates to be able to bypass the normal dialing system to connect to specific stargates in the Milky Way.

    As far as the third point, I'd put my money on Ori ascended knowledge but for your argument, we don't even know for sure that the Ancients even visited any of the other Local Group galaxies let alone seeded them with stargates. This is one of those things we can't know for sure cuz it's never been stated in the show. I have a feeling that things are going to become alot clearer after SGU premieres or if the SGA movie is ever released but for now it's all just guessing.

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by tinerin View Post
      Well, I'd say the first two assumptions are pretty good assumptions based on the fact that we know the Alterans were designing the stargates before they fled their home galaxy.
      We don't really know that.

      We know that Amelius came up with the design/idea for a "modern" Stargate just hours before the Alterans departed, but we have no idea how much development had gone into Stargates before that: for all we know, he could have been the first to have the idea.



      Originally posted by tinerin View Post
      Orlin said that the Alterans believed in science and the Ori we religious nuts so if the Ori already had the Alteran stargate schematics why would they go ahead and build a completely new system?
      The problem is that we have no reason to believe that the Ori had the Alteran schematics-indeed, there is reason to believe that they did not. Without Amelius's design, there is nothing to connect Ori Stargates to Alteran Stargates.



      Originally posted by tinerin View Post
      As far as the third point, I'd put my money on Ori ascended knowledge but for your argument, we don't even know for sure that the Ancients even visited any of the other Local Group galaxies let alone seeded them with stargates.
      I'm not sure what your point here is.

      My point is that the Ori galaxy couldn't have been in the Local Group, or in any of the nearby groups, because then there would be little to no need for the Ori to make a Supergate: they could fly here directly in less than a month. The main gist of this argument was that there must be literally hundreds of galaxies closer to the Ori Galaxy than Milky Way, and thus Ori Stargates would have to have hundreds of symbols to allow them to reach Milky Way using a "galaxy code" eighth chevron.
      "From East Middle School. Suzumiya Haruhi. I have no interest in ordinary humans. If there are any aliens, time travelers, sliders, or espers here, come join me."
      - The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya; Best Character Introduction Ever.

      "And can we lose the ten thousand year old dead plants?!"
      - Stargate: Atlantis (1x03) "Hide and Seek"

      "Hammerheads do not load/unload units immediately – they must descend to ground level first. Initial experiments involving jump-jetting infantry into the Hammerhead’s cargo compartment met with unfortunate results."
      - Command&Conquer 3: Kane's Wrath Hammerhead Unit Spotlight

      Comment


        #4
        There are only two 8 symbol address that we can be sure of

        The 8 symbol address for Atlantis goes:-

        Glyph 19 – Pegasus
        Glyph 21 – Pisces
        Glyph 2 – Carter
        Glyph 16 – Pisces Austrinus
        Glyph 15 – Capricorn
        Glyph 8 – Norma
        Glyph 20 – Sculptor
        Glyph 1 – Earth PoO

        Now if you are going to have a galaxy code for the Pegasus galaxy it seems logical that it would be the Pegasus glyph, but as that glyph is the first one in the address that would imply that the "area code / distance calculator" is the 1st glyph to be dialled, not the 7th.
        So this leads me to two possible theories as to how 8 chevron addresses work.

        Theory 1 - The 1st glyph indicates the direction in which to send the wormhole and the other six code for the whole galaxy), however how do you connect to a specific stargate in that network, e.g. Lantea?

        Theory 2 - The 1st glyph again indicates the direction in which to send the wormhole and the other six code for a specific point within that galaxy i.e. Lantea.
        However the address for the Asgard home world Othala in the Ida galaxy goes:-

        Glyph 11 – Scutum
        Glyph 27 – Taurus
        Glyph 23 – Triangulum
        Glyph 16 – Pisces Austrinus
        Glyph 33 – Gemini
        Glyph 3 – Virgo
        Glyph 9 – Scorpio
        Glyph 1 – Earth PoO

        This raises a problem because neither the 1st glyph Scutum, nor the 7th glyph Scorpio contain any galaxies that are part of the local group, so how an 8 chevron address works in that respect I do not know (maybe in the fifth race they gust made up a random address and didn’t bother checking if it actually specified a galaxy).
        "So, what's your impression of Alar?"
        "That he is concealing something."
        "Like what?"
        "I am unsure. He is concealing it."

        "Well, according to Einstein’s General Theory of Relativity, there’s nothing in the laws of physics to prevent it. Extremely difficult to achieve, mind you – you need the technology to manipulate black holes to create wormholes not only through points in space but time."
        "Not to mention a really nice DeLorean."
        "Don’t even get me started on that movie!"
        "I liked that movie!"

        Comment


          #5
          I expressed this opinion in another thread some months back and I'll just quote myself from it here.

          1. The eight chevron is a distance (and possibly a directional) calculation, not an area code to another network. When you dial, say from Earth to Atlantis in Pegasus (assuming you have sufficient power) the eighth directs you the correct distance and direction to a seven-symbol address in that distant region of space, in this case the Pegasus galaxy.

          2. Extra distance requires extra power, lots of it, equal to that of a ZPM. I guess we all know that. The distance that determines whether an eighth symbol is required to access another stargate is unknown, but its probably somewhere in the void of intergalactic space.

          3. What we call gate networks aren't really 'networks' in the sense that each one is a closed system with a unique technology. They're distinguished as individual networks only because they're grouped together inside galaxies and are accessible to each other via 7-symbol addresses. Read on:

          4. Gate networks do not have to consist of one gate type. If, for example, the Milky Way contained a mix of both MW and Pegasus gates they could all function together as one network, just as different types of telephones can easily access each other all around the world. Dialing might be a bit confusing because of the different gate symbols, but that's all. (Also it might be necessary to reinstall control crystals to all of the Pegasus gates.)
          Again, my opinion, but it's based on Carter's explanation to Hammond in The Fifth Race that the eighth is probably a 'distance' calculation.

          My timeline of the Ancients here.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Control_Chair View Post
            So this leads me to two possible theories as to how 8 chevron addresses work.

            Theory 1 - The 1st glyph indicates the direction in which to send the wormhole and the other six code for the whole galaxy), however how do you connect to a specific stargate in that network, e.g. Lantea?

            Theory 2 - The 1st glyph again indicates the direction in which to send the wormhole and the other six code for a specific point within that galaxy i.e. Lantea.
            I cannot help but think that the "truth" is more complicated than that, especially given what I note below.



            Originally posted by Control_Chair View Post
            This raises a problem because neither the 1st glyph Scutum, nor the 7th glyph Scorpio contain any galaxies that are part of the local group, so how an 8 chevron address works in that respect I do not know (maybe in the fifth race they gust made up a random address and didn’t bother checking if it actually specified a galaxy).
            Well, Scutum might not have any Local Group galaxies, but its neighbor, Sagittarius, has the Sagittarius Dwarf Elliptical Galaxy, the Sagittarius Dwarf Irregular Galaxy, and NGC 6822.



            Originally posted by Professor D.H.D. Puddlejumper View Post
            Again, my opinion, but it's based on Carter's explanation to Hammond in The Fifth Race that the eighth is probably a 'distance' calculation.
            The problem is that, unless I am severly misunderstanding you, your explanation still reduces to a "galaxy code."

            Worse, if the eighth chevron worked the way that you explain (an eight-chevron address is just a seven-chevron address displaced by some coordinate), then there is no way that the eighth chevron could be used to reach Pegasus. Let assume that, for the purposes of defining 'Gate addresses, the Milky Way is a sphere. This, of course, would mean that only 1.5% of all 'Gate addresses would fall within the Galactic disk, but I digress.

            In any case, taking the Milky Way as sphere with radius of 50,000 light-years, we find its total volume to be about 500 trillion cubic light-years. Since there are 32 times as many eight-chevron addresses as there are seven-chevron addresses, we multiply this volume by 33 (32 for the eight-chevron addresses plus 1 for the seven-chevron addresses). This gives a volume of rougly 17 quadrillion cubic light-years.

            If we take this region to be a sphere and work back, we find that this sphere would have a radius of 160,000 light-years, which is barely larger than the Milky Way itself. It doesn't even come close to providing the range needed to reach Pegasus, which is roughly 3,000,000 light-years distant.


            Of course, you could make the argument that eight-chevron addresses are not contiguous, but that pretty much translates to "galaxy code."
            "From East Middle School. Suzumiya Haruhi. I have no interest in ordinary humans. If there are any aliens, time travelers, sliders, or espers here, come join me."
            - The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya; Best Character Introduction Ever.

            "And can we lose the ten thousand year old dead plants?!"
            - Stargate: Atlantis (1x03) "Hide and Seek"

            "Hammerheads do not load/unload units immediately – they must descend to ground level first. Initial experiments involving jump-jetting infantry into the Hammerhead’s cargo compartment met with unfortunate results."
            - Command&Conquer 3: Kane's Wrath Hammerhead Unit Spotlight

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Quadhelix View Post
              I cannot help but think that the "truth" is more complicated than that, especially given what I note below.



              Well, Scutum might not have any Local Group galaxies, but its neighbor, Sagittarius, has the Sagittarius Dwarf Elliptical Galaxy, the Sagittarius Dwarf Irregular Galaxy, and NGC 6822.
              Does anybody actually know which galaxy in the local group is supposed to be Ida anyway? I mean how far away is it supposed to be, is it a satellite galaxy of the MW? I know that the modified cargo ship travelled to Halla in about 10 days in New Order – Part 1 (assuming that Halla and Orilla are actually in Ida and the whole Othalla galaxy thing is just a huge mistake by TPTB).
              "So, what's your impression of Alar?"
              "That he is concealing something."
              "Like what?"
              "I am unsure. He is concealing it."

              "Well, according to Einstein’s General Theory of Relativity, there’s nothing in the laws of physics to prevent it. Extremely difficult to achieve, mind you – you need the technology to manipulate black holes to create wormholes not only through points in space but time."
              "Not to mention a really nice DeLorean."
              "Don’t even get me started on that movie!"
              "I liked that movie!"

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Control_Chair View Post
                Does anybody actually know which galaxy in the local group is supposed to be Ida anyway? I mean how far away is it supposed to be, is it a satellite galaxy of the MW?
                I don't think that it was ever firmly established.

                In "Enemies," they encounter a Replicator ship in a galaxy roughly 4 million light-years away. This would imply that Ida/Othalla is very distant, unless the replicators were specifically avoiding the Milky Way for some reason.

                However, in "Revelations," the was mention of an Asgard sleeper ship that, due to some sort of malfunction, spent the last 30,000 years drifting between our galaxy and theirs. This would seem to imply that Ida/Othalla is very close.



                Originally posted by Control_Chair View Post
                I know that the modified cargo ship travelled to Halla in about 10 days in New Order – Part 1 (assuming that Halla and Orilla are actually in Ida and the whole Othalla galaxy thing is just a huge mistake by TPTB).
                Well, unless we assume that the upgraded Tel'Tac is much faster than a BC-304, this would imply that Halla is much closer than Pegasus.

                There are several reasons for which I would guess that a BC-304 would be faster. Firstly, it is a larger vessel, allowing it a larger power supply and all that jazz. Second, while the Cargo Ship's hyperdrive was upgraded with Ancient knowledge, it was just an upgrade; the BC-304's hyperdrive was designed for intergalactic travel. Third, there is no reason to think that Ancient intergalactic hyperdrives are significantly faster than Asgard intergalactic hyperdrives.
                "From East Middle School. Suzumiya Haruhi. I have no interest in ordinary humans. If there are any aliens, time travelers, sliders, or espers here, come join me."
                - The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya; Best Character Introduction Ever.

                "And can we lose the ten thousand year old dead plants?!"
                - Stargate: Atlantis (1x03) "Hide and Seek"

                "Hammerheads do not load/unload units immediately – they must descend to ground level first. Initial experiments involving jump-jetting infantry into the Hammerhead’s cargo compartment met with unfortunate results."
                - Command&Conquer 3: Kane's Wrath Hammerhead Unit Spotlight

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Quadhelix View Post
                  I don't think that it was ever firmly established.

                  In "Enemies," they encounter a Replicator ship in a galaxy roughly 4 million light-years away. This would imply that Ida/Othalla is very distant, unless the replicators were specifically avoiding the Milky Way for some reason.
                  Well we don't know if that was Ida, only that that galaxy had replicatios in it, and the replicator ship didn't seem to look like an Asgard ship. Also it would have taken the 125 years to travel back to the MW using "normal" maximum hyperdrive speed of an Hatak (before replicator modifications).

                  Originally posted by Quadhelix View Post
                  However, in "Revelations," the was mention of an Asgard sleeper ship that, due to some sort of malfunction, spent the last 30,000 years drifting between our galaxy and theirs. This would seem to imply that Ida/Othalla is very close.

                  Well, unless we assume that the upgraded Tel'Tac is much faster than a BC-304, this would imply that Halla is much closer than Pegasus.

                  There are several reasons for which I would guess that a BC-304 would be faster. Firstly, it is a larger vessel, allowing it a larger power supply and all that jazz. Second, while the Cargo Ship's hyperdrive was upgraded with Ancient knowledge, it was just an upgrade; the BC-304's hyperdrive was designed for intergalactic travel. Third, there is no reason to think that Ancient intergalactic hyperdrives are significantly faster than Asgard intergalactic hyperdrives.
                  I agree that the modified cargo ship wouldn't be able to travel as fast as a 304 so Ida must be much closer than Pegsus.
                  "So, what's your impression of Alar?"
                  "That he is concealing something."
                  "Like what?"
                  "I am unsure. He is concealing it."

                  "Well, according to Einstein’s General Theory of Relativity, there’s nothing in the laws of physics to prevent it. Extremely difficult to achieve, mind you – you need the technology to manipulate black holes to create wormholes not only through points in space but time."
                  "Not to mention a really nice DeLorean."
                  "Don’t even get me started on that movie!"
                  "I liked that movie!"

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Another contradictory idea of the "eight chevron"="galaxy code" idea is that there are 38 symbols on the gate without the PoO.So does that mean that you can acces only 38 galaxies?

                    Indeed(quoting Teal'c), it's better to asume that the other symbols in a 8 symbol address help the gate to "point" the wormhole in the right way.
                    I find beer a refreshing substitute for ... food

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Quadhelix View Post
                      However, in "Revelations," the was mention of an Asgard sleeper ship that, due to some sort of malfunction, spent the last 30,000 years drifting between our galaxy and theirs. This would seem to imply that Ida/Othalla is very close.
                      The ship most likely had hyperdrive, othervise it couldnt reach even the closest galaxy in 30k years, so i dont think it implies Ida is close.

                      Anyway, my thought is that in the 8 chevron address, the 7 are a sort of direction (a vector?), possibly with some distance offset for short distances (in galaxy?), and the 8th chevron serves as a long distance offset (alot like carter explained), so one symbol could mean something like 1-2 million LY from POO for first symbol 2-3M for the second and so on.


                      Covering up scandals and keeping secrets is almost a racial trait.

                      Isn't it funny how the word 'politics' is made up of the words 'poli' meaning 'many' in Latin, and 'tics' as in 'bloodsucking creatures’?

                      Comment

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