Incoming wormhole anomaly

[Phenom]

Righto,

When off world and the SG teams dial home, prety much instantly as soon as they push the big red button, the wormhole is formed and off they go through the gate. So it stands to reason that as soon as it is formed on their end, that the receiving gate has also 'kawooshed' in its preperation to receive them.

However quite often in the SGC they get an 'unauthorised incoming wormhole' warning, which tends to be several seconds before the 'kawoosh' and often shows the chevrons lighting up and locking over the course of several seconds before the wormhole is established.

Now I am curious as to how the receiving gate knows it is going to get called, seemingly before the sending gate has finished being dialled??

Simple analogy would be you pick up the phone to dial your mum and after you have completed dialling all her numbers, her phone rings.

[Flibby]

Hello. I've recently been watching SG-1 from the beginning with my girlfriend and have been making it a point to point out all of the inconsistencies and continuity errors.

There are two things that really bug me that I'd like to clear up:

In at least some of the earlier seasons, when a gate is being dialed in to, it spins and the chevrons lock and such.
This seems to not make sense. How can that Gate know if it's being dialed in to until it already has been.
The time it takes for something to go from the outgoing stargate is not nearly enough to account for the amount of time it takes spinning and locking.

I assume this is just a continuity error that they didn't notice for a while and fixed later. Am I right about that?
If so, how did they fix it later?
Does a receiving stargate just simply activate and light up immediately?
That seems to make the most sense to me, and that's how I best remember it.

The other thing is that the SGC somehow receives iris codes AS the gate is being dialed into. (before there is a visible wormhole connection)
I think I remember them not receiving iris codes until after a wormhole has formed later on in the show.
Is this just another thing they messed up to begin with and fixed later?


I'm sorry if these things have been discussed before, but I couldn't find info about this.

[thekillman]

gates seem to communicate before the actual lock has been made. later they might have used this to send the communique before the lock

[Flibby]

That is just absolutely bizarre. I made a new thread asking about the same problem exactly 1 minute after you made your post. >_<

As I said in my thread. I'm pretty sure it's just a silly mistake they made at the beginning of the show, and they corrected it later.
I think the way it works now is that as soon as the sending gate is activated, the one of the other side is too. (or at least very shortly afterward)

[Flibby]

If they can send iris codes, then why can't they use it to send radio transmissions?

[thekillman]

because they probably can only let their signal tack along that communique, and not create it themselves? or the radiation is allowed through before the EH is created and thus while the EH/blue puddle isnt there yet, the wormhole already is.

[Phenom]

Great minds!!!

I put it down to a dramatic thing. They can't have the suspense of an 'incoming wormhole' if the thing just activates without warning.

[Quadhelix]

In at least some of the earlier seasons, when a gate is being dialed in to, it spins and the chevrons lock and such.
This seems to not make sense. How can that Gate know if it's being dialed in to until it already has been.
The time it takes for something to go from the outgoing stargate is not nearly enough to account for the amount of time it takes spinning and locking.

The problem with this is that, in Special Relativity, "now" is a very complicated concept. On a planet 10 light-years away, the "present" consists not only of what you would say is happening right now, but also what you would say has happened within the last ten years and what will happen within the next ten years.

Therefore, it is possible for one Stargate to receive a signal from another Stargate "before" the other Stargate finishes dialing, simply because the concepts of "before" and "after" are such fuzzy terms in the real world.



But, yeah, it was probably a production error.

The other thing is that the SGC somehow receives iris codes AS the gate is being dialed into. (before there is a visible wormhole connection)
I think I remember them not receiving iris codes until after a wormhole has formed later on in the show.
Is this just another thing they messed up to begin with and fixed later?

This is almost certainly a production error: without a wormhole, there is no way to transmit the IDC, unless the Stargate itself acts as a relay.

[Steelbox]

Great minds!!!

I put it down to a dramatic thing. They can't have the suspense of an 'incoming wormhole' if the thing just activates without warning.

With a DHD you can dial in in 3 seconds, plus 4 for the puddle to stabilize and more 3 to reach the gate and enter, so 10 seconds from the begining of dial to enter the event horizon. As with offworld gate they only light up and don't spin even with out dhd. Would it also happen with ours? As far as i know our gate spin because we lack a DHD, but that only on outgoing connections not incoming. Right?

[Phenom]

With a DHD you can dial in in 3 seconds, plus 4 for the puddle to stabilize and more 3 to reach the gate and enter, so 10 seconds from the begining of dial to enter the event horizon. As with offworld gate they only light up and don't spin even with out dhd. Would it also happen with ours? As far as i know our gate spin because we lack a DHD, but that only on outgoing connections not incoming. Right?

Yeah I dunno.. There was a real smart sciency answer about 2 posts up. Something about gates being dialled before they were dialled due to the Chewbacca effect or something. That sounded smart enough to be plausible. Should be enough to let me sleep tonight without worrying too much more about this one

[Dr_Wesley]

That's something that's always bothered me. There are some scenes where, upon completion of the dialling sequence on the sending gate, the receiving gate immediately lights up and activates. That is the way it should be. The gate cannot know that a connection is being made to it until the dialling sequence is complete, and therefore cannot begin to "light up" or spin beforehand.

Also, an IDC cannot be received until the wormhole is activated. This is, however, probably just something we should pretend doesn't happen. I believe in The Tok'ra Part II there's a scene where the team are waiting for Carter, Martouf and Jacob/Selmak. The gate is inactive while Carter and Martouf wait for Jacob/Selmak to recover enough from blending so that they can be moved. Despite this, the technicians at Earth state that there is still no IDC. This is obviously just a lapse in attention to the details of the script that we sadly must live with.

~Wes

[Quadhelix]

That's something that's always bothered me. There are some scenes where, upon completion of the dialling sequence on the sending gate, the receiving gate immediately lights up and activates. That is the way it should be. The gate cannot know that a connection is being made to it until the dialling sequence is complete, and therefore cannot begin to "light up" or spin beforehand.

Well, it probably is a production error, but it is not impossible, as I already pointed out: once you get into Special Relativity, concepts like "now" get a little blurred. Indeed, it is quite easy to show on Minkowski spacetime diagram that travel faster than light (including via wormhole, like a Stargate uses) is the exact same thing as time travel.

Thus, it is quite possible that the wormhole starts forming at the destination 'Gate before the other 'Gate finishes dialing.

[Splitsecond]

The problem with this is that, in Special Relativity, "now" is a very complicated concept. On a planet 10 light-years away, the "present" consists not only of what you would say is happening right now, but also what you would say has happened within the last ten years and what will happen within the next ten years.

Therefore, it is possible for one Stargate to receive a signal from another Stargate "before" the other Stargate finishes dialing, simply because the concepts of "before" and "after" are such fuzzy terms in the real world.

That Special Relativity stuff is not correct. I have no idea where you got that from. Special Relativity details the consequences of the speed of light in a vacuum always being constant for all observers no matter the speed of the observer. The fact that light has a speed means that any light reaching us from an object 10 light-years away is 10 years old. You have never seen the sun as it is now, you always see it roughly 8 minutes ago. One interesting concept from Special Relativity is that simultaneous events are not simultaneous to everyone (simultaneity is relative). The events of the last 10 years of a star 10 light-years away are currently the next 10 years of our future.

This still doesn't explain why a gate can determine it will be dialed in the future. What is the cannon travel time between the event horizons?

Another Thought: In 'there but for the grace of god' the enemy gate had to complete the dialing to get an incoming wormhole. Also the length of time between the team sending the IDC and going through the gate should be the time it takes for the signal to get to Earth be recognised by the computer, have the technician call the commanding officer and ask for permission to open the iris, have the computer broadcast the 'all clear', get the signal back to the team and have the team recognise the 'all clear'. That's far longer than the average embarkation time.

[Quadhelix]

That Special Relativity stuff is not correct. I have no idea where you got that from.

My (undergraduate) physics teacher. In the course "Special Relativity and Waves."

Maybe I'm not phrasing it well, but an event whose light has not reached us in not in the "absolute" past, and a symmetrical idea exists for future events.

Special Relativity details the consequences of the speed of light in a vacuum always being constant for all observers no matter the speed of the observer. The fact that light has a speed means that any light reaching us from an object 10 light-years away is 10 years old.

Yes, except not all observers will agree that the distance is ten light-years. For example, an entity riding on the beam of light would say that the distance is zero.

This still doesn't explain why a gate can determine it will be dialed in the future.

Because, as I mentioned, the idea of "past" and "future" is a little fuzzy once you start getting faster than light signals. For example, it's possible that the initial activation signal, while emitted simultaneously with the actual wormhole from the dialing 'Gate, can sometime "arrive" before the Wormhole at the destination 'Gate.

Another Thought: In 'there but for the grace of god' the enemy gate had to complete the dialing to get an incoming wormhole.

This can mean one of two things:

A. 'Gates detecting an incoming wormhole before one engages is an error.

B. 'Gates detecting an incoming wormhole before one engages is an error.



On the other hand, following the "two signals" conjecture that I mention above, it could mean on of two things:

A. An activation signal does not preclude a 'Gate from dialing out (supported by "The Tok'Ra, Part 2" where they race to dial out even as the Goa'uld are dialing in)

B. Conditions in "There but for the Grace of God" were such that the activation signal did not arrive before the wormhole.

[Splitsecond]

My (undergraduate) physics teacher. In the course "Special Relativity and Waves."

Maybe I'm not phrasing it well, but an event whose light has not reached us in not in the "absolute" past, and a symmetrical idea exists for future events.

That's the old 'elsewhere in time'/'undefinable time' situation. Using the 10 light-year situation I raised earlier you can get a better picture of the time problem. Everything that fits into the 'speed of light cone' we extend back in space-time has affected us and happened in our causal past. An event that happened over 10 years ago at the other star is in our causal past. Conversely everything that fits into the 'speed of light cone' we extend forwards in time is affected by our actions and is considered our causal future. In 10 years time the other star is our causal future. Events that are less than 10 years old at the other star are not yet our causal past and are not any more our causal future. Our present is causally unrelated to all events at the other star for the last 10 years and also the next 10 years. They are our future past and past future respectively. We have no name for these events yet because we can't know that they have happened and can no longer affect them. It takes 20 years for an event at the other star to pass from the future to the past assuming the positions of Earth and the other star don't move relative to their starting points. It's one of the most confusing aspects of causality and invariant light speed. Mainly because there isn't a good way of explaining it because we never invented a way of talking about it.