Bad writing? Carter and McKay

[Puddle-Jumper]

Both have made some incredible achievements, and I always thought that Carter was smarter, purely cos shes not a spazz most the time like Mckay is, and she originally cracked the stargate, blew up a sun not to mention she was the one on SG1 and the one that the SGC always relied upon and not McKay, before atlantis obviously.

Yet some of the things that Mckay has done seem to be even beyond what the ancients did, like making a hyperdrive for a Jumper for example something the ancients didn't do and so probably couldn't and countless other things too.

Sure I love a sun or a solar system exploding and the smart guy solving things at the last minute with some really great explaination but things seem to have gotten entirely out of hand with the writers just throwing things into the show that really has no place in it just to make things easier to wrap up? Really like McKay and Zelenka being able to use the wormhole drive, a piece of technology that the ancients couldn't get working, nor could the asgard...

Do you agree or am I insane, don't get me wrong I love the show but sometimes things happen that just annoy me.

Is this going to be a problem for universe with seemingly two genius's on the crew (David Blue and Robert Carlyle), both being main characters?

[Rac80]

Both have made some incredible achievements, and I always thought that Carter was smarter, purely cos shes not a spazz most the time like Mckay is, and she originally cracked the stargate, blew up a sun not to mention she was the one on SG1 and the one that the SGC always relied upon and not McKay, before atlantis obviously.

Yet some of the things that Mckay has done seem to be even beyond what the ancients did, like making a hyperdrive for a Jumper for example something the ancients didn't do and so probably couldn't and countless other things too.

Sure I love a sun or a solar system exploding and the smart guy solving things at the last minute with some really great explaination but things seem to have gotten entirely out of hand with the writers just throwing things into the show that really has no place in it just to make things easier to wrap up? Really like McKay and Zelenka being able to use the wormhole drive, a piece of technology that the ancients couldn't get working, nor could the asgard...

Do you agree or am I insane, don't get me wrong I love the show but sometimes things happen that just annoy me.

Is this going to be a problem for universe with seemingly two genius's on the crew (David Blue and Robert Carlyle), both being main characters?

I agree it was all part of tptb's love affair with mckay. when he was on SG1, he was shown to be a self-important windbag who didn't know nearly as much as sam, just thought he did. But those in charge of SGA decided he had to be "the man" and all knowing etc... Just made me dislike the character more. :S

[Coronach]

Yet some of the things that Mckay has done seem to be even beyond what the ancients did, like making a hyperdrive for a Jumper for example something the ancients didn't do and so probably couldn't and countless other things too.

This doesn't really follow. I don't think the Ancients couldn't have. Maybe jumpers just didn't need such technology, as they had other ships that could serve that purpose?


Sure I love a sun or a solar system exploding and the smart guy solving things at the last minute with some really great explaination but things seem to have gotten entirely out of hand with the writers just throwing things into the show that really has no place in it just to make things easier to wrap up? Really like McKay and Zelenka being able to use the wormhole drive, a piece of technology that the ancients couldn't get working, nor could the asgard...

Again, I don't think it was stated that the Ancient's couldn't get it working, and I don't remember the Asgard even being mentioned in EatG. They just said the project was abandoned.

Granted, I agree that I didn't love the wormhole drive concept, but they did try to put limitations on it (i.e. unstable, massive energy requirements). I also agree with the general point you're trying to make.

I do think that, at times, it seems like Carter and McKay (especially McKay though) were just too good. I don't think it's bad writing, but I think it got to be lazy writing when too much of the stories relied on those characters solving the problems.


Do you agree or am I insane, don't get me wrong I love the show but sometimes things happen that just annoy me.

I agree with you, in the ways stated above.


Is this going to be a problem for universe with seemingly two genius's on the crew (David Blue and Robert Carlyle), both being main characters?

No. If anything, I expect the exact opposite. If they can't figure out how to get control of the Destiny, I don't imagine they'll be pulling anything out of left field too often in SGU. I could be wrong though, and we'll have to wait and see of course.

[Bareassedmunky]

I don't agree about carter, I think she was ok for this, but McKay took the piss. Atlantis had more in common with Star Trek than SG-1. Too many of the stories were solved by some sort of technobabble solution, which the audience cannot relate to because technobabble, by definition, does not make sense. Carter taking the sun out wasn't actually as difficult as it seems, and the science behind it makes sense, so the audience can relate to that sort of solution. McKay became a parody of himself by the end, his genius seemed to grow and grow, and his personal issues, which were over the top to begin with, just got worse and worse.

I think that was the main reason why SGA declined in quality in the later years, contributing to it's downfall, I've watch SGA through twice (except S5), and to be honest, I can't remember too many stories. Some of the early ones were good, but the later ones have melted together in my mind into one blur of mediocracy. SG-1 on the other hand, I remember pretty much every story, and there were twice as many.

[PG15]

Yet some of the things that Mckay has done seem to be even beyond what the ancients did, like making a hyperdrive for a Jumper for example something the ancients didn't do and so probably couldn't and countless other things too.

Sure I love a sun or a solar system exploding and the smart guy solving things at the last minute with some really great explaination but things seem to have gotten entirely out of hand with the writers just throwing things into the show that really has no place in it just to make things easier to wrap up? Really like McKay and Zelenka being able to use the wormhole drive, a piece of technology that the ancients couldn't get working, nor could the asgard...

You know what happens when you assume...

[Coronach]

You know what happens when you assume...

You make an....

Oh! Rhetorical...;)

[Puddle-Jumper]

You know what happens when you assume...

Ancients built wormhole drive, they would have used it on all of their ships if they could get it working, asgard studied the ancient database not to mention were pretty buddy buddy with them, if they could have gotten it working they would have used it too. Also from everything we know from the asgard that their greatest strenght was their advanced tech, to make things bigger and more advanced then their enemies (as evident by them building the O'neil class ships and the first ep that we saw with with carter ), this was also a great weakness (the cloning)

Yeah I assume some things, but I follow pure logic when doing so.

If a guy falls off a building its pretty logical to assume that he his going to hit the ground no? If the ancients couldn't get something working and if the asgard couldn't invent/perfect it then Rodney Mckay should not be able to.

[Coronach]

Ancients built wormhole drive, they would have used it on all of their ships if they could get it working, asgard studied the ancient database not to mention were pretty buddy buddy with them, if they could have gotten it working they would have used it too.


These are the assumptions he was talking about though. And, really, I don't think they're logical ones.

Enemy at the Gate had this to say on the subject:


ZELENKA

(referring to the computer he's holding)
This is something that Rodney's been working on for quite some time. It's an adaptation of an Ancient technology which was abandoned because of instability and…enormous power requirements.

WOOLSEY

What is it?

ZELENKA

Wormhole drive. It-it's nearly instantaneous travel across enormous distances. It's not unlike gate travel itself. If it works, it could have us at Earth in a matter of seconds. Now, the calculations are incredibly complex. If we're off even by a fraction…it could be very bad.


It doesn't say that the Ancients didn't get it to work, or that they didn't ever use it. The fact that Atlantis had the capability to do so speaks to this fact (at least for me). However, it doesn't negate the fact that it may just be too impractical to use, so they abandoned it.


If a guy falls off a building its pretty logical to assume that he his going to hit the ground no? If the ancients couldn't get something working and if the asgard couldn't invent/perfect it then Rodney Mckay should not be able to.

We can infer that the Ancients probably did get it to work, then they abandoned it for the reasons listed above. Perhaps the Asgard realized this in their interactions with the Ancients and decided to leave it alone as well?

And McKay certainly didn't perfect it. Really, from the way Zelenka described it, they got lucky that it worked. I have more problems with the sheer luck of it than them knowing how to use the technology.

[Bodmanbod]

If a guy falls off a building its pretty logical to assume that he his going to hit the ground no?

In atlantis there's a good chance he'll hit the ocean :p



Seriously though:

I do agree that often Rodney was too good. In SG1 Carter often needed help from a gould or tokra etc Though you can say the same was done in SGA with todd i dont think it was done to the same degree. Carter's solutions were mostly believable whereas most of Rodney's weren't. In any case i much prefer to see the humans win through a better strategy rather than a new or better tech.

Not sure if this will be a problem on SGU or not, no way to tell, i just hope it wont. Do we know these guys' fields of study, they could be musical genius' :p

[Reci]

Science Fiction shows like Stargate tend to be more enjoyable when you suspend rational thought and just enjoy the show, Stop thinking so much and trying to analyze everything. You can't hear the show if your inside voice is talking over everything.

[Puddle-Jumper]

We can infer that the Ancients probably did get it to work, then they abandoned it for the reasons listed above. Perhaps the Asgard realized this in their interactions with the Ancients and decided to leave it alone as well?

And McKay certainly didn't perfect it. Really, from the way Zelenka described it, they got lucky that it worked. I have more problems with the sheer luck of it than them knowing how to use the technology.

I still disagree, the ancients got it working sure but they probably rarely if ever used it, as the hyperdrive is clearly the primary method of transport, but we are going off point, this isn't about the wormhole drive, its about Rodneys infinite ability to solve any problem and defy any if not all of the laws of physics at a moments notice

[Coronach]

I still disagree, the ancients got it working sure but they probably rarely if ever used it, as the hyperdrive is clearly the primary method of transport

Actually, if this is what you're saying then we don't disagree. :)


but we are going off point, this isn't about the wormhole drive, its about Rodneys infinite ability to solve any problem and defy any if not all of the laws of physics at a moments notice

I agreed in my first post here that Rodney did seem a bit too good at solving these problems. I still think it was a little bit of both lazy writing as well as over-reliance on the character. I also agree with you, in that I hope we don't see this in SGU. Personally, I don't think we will.

[Skydiver]

both carter and mckay have fallen victim to 'fix it' syndrome.

the show is scifi, they need someone to make the science work, explain the science and have it not seem tooo fictiony

so sam and mckay both fall in that 'fix it' pattern.

they are as brilliant as they need to be.

and yes, mckay's character, when he was 'promoted' from 'episode necessary annoyance' to 'name in the credits' went an attitude over haul. Kinda like Kinsey went from bumbling bureaucratic buffoon to competent administrator

[Octrackiepacsg1]

A poll on the MGM site said, who's smarter carter or mckay. the winner was mckay. I don't have the exact results because they don't show the poll archives...just throwing that out there

[sramir2]

I like Rodney but also I hated him at the same time, just for the reasons stated above, same thing with Sam but not so far out of left field like Rodney is somethimes. Sometimes I watch SG:A and it just seems that Rodney pulls stuff out of his....y'know;). While I watch the character of Sam and it seems that she actually know her limit, she is brilliant but actually to the point she seems, what's the word...human. As Rodney just seems bigger than he actually is.

As the all mighty lord of the board;) Skydiver said:


both carter and mckay have fallen victim to 'fix it' syndrome.

the show is scifi, they need someone to make the science work, explain the science and have it not seem tooo fictiony

so sam and mckay both fall in that 'fix it' pattern.

they are as brilliant as they need to be.

and yes, mckay's character, when he was 'promoted' from 'episode necessary annoyance' to 'name in the credits' went an attitude over haul. Kinda like Kinsey went from bumbling bureaucratic buffoon to competent administrator

I know that Sam is the 'fix it character for SG-1 but, she seemed more human, as for Rodney he go annoying

'Is there a problem?'
'Yes, and we don't know how to fix it, we can't do it, it's impossible'
'Get Rodney he can do anything'

That to me sums up almost every techno-problem in Altanits, then five minutes later, Rodney has designed a whole warp-drive with his magical notebook that can solve any problem in the galaxy with a few presses(which actually I want a magical notebook too;)), and to me it almost got predictable and kind of boring(is not the right word but something like that)

[Skydiver]

i've found that both sam and mckay are capable of fixing...well whatever the story needs them to fix

sam just does it calmer and much quieter than mckay :)

[PG15]

I still disagree, the ancients got it working sure but they probably rarely if ever used it, as the hyperdrive is clearly the primary method of transport, but we are going off point, this isn't about the wormhole drive, its about Rodneys infinite ability to solve any problem and defy any if not all of the laws of physics at a moments notice

Except you used an example to support your assertion, and Coronach just proved that your example is useless.

So keep the examples coming if you want to prove your point.

And, of course, if we can explain all of your examples, then you have no case. ;)

[mateodh]

I don't think it's fair to say either Carter or McKay is smarter. McKay wasn't on the front line like Carter was or exposed to the scientific advancements Carter was. I loved the writing surrounding McKay's character, they were able to carry over his arrogance and make him into a likable character despite his personality issues. If he changed at all with being inserted into the main cast, it was likely the result of having to put his life into the hands of others repeatedly, having to learn to trust people he deemed less competent when his intelligence couldn't save him.

Also, Rodney and the expedition had some advantages over the Ancients. Rodney mostly had ree reign over all the data available to him as long as he could make it work to his advantage. The Ancients usually handled everything by committee, making things harder to get done in much the same way the government held back the SGC on occasion. Some of the most important advances in Earth's technology came from Janus, simply because he didn't allow the rest to hold him back. The Ancients often played it safe, rejecting risk, confident in their strength and comfortable with their technology. Rodney had the pressure of saving the Galaxy from superior Wraith. The way it was presented in EatG, it seems wormhole drive is something of a coin flip, 50/50 you make it or you're vaporized. One last-ditch attempt to save your home planet is worth it, but mass application is utterly impractical, especially when your other technologies allow you to do extraordinary things.

[thekillman]

carter's intellect is explainable. she was host to a tok'ra, giving her the tok'ra knowledge. so that's not that strange. but mckay simply has to be the smartest person on the planet.

the jumperdrive was invented when he was near ascension.

Mckay is more unbelievable than carter when it comes to intellect, but is more believable when it comes to social interaction. untill he and keller, naturally. thats plain stupid. she has to be blind.

[Crazedwraith]

Mckay is more unbelievable than carter when it comes to intellect, but is more believable when it comes to social interaction. untill he and keller, naturally. thats plain stupid. she has to be blind.

Say what? Because brilliant scientists can only be maladjusted dorks?

Keller doesn't have to be blind, just not incredibly shallow.

[Bareassedmunky]

Science Fiction shows like Stargate tend to be more enjoyable when you suspend rational thought and just enjoy the show, Stop thinking so much and trying to analyze everything. You can't hear the show if your inside voice is talking over everything.

I couldn't disagree with you more, and my signature explains why


carter's intellect is explainable. she was host to a tok'ra, giving her the tok'ra knowledge. so that's not that strange.

That would be a good point if they ever showed her using tok'ra knowledge, but they didn't, so there is no reason to think that helped her at all.

[thekillman]

That would be a good point if they ever showed her using tok'ra knowledge, but they didn't, so there is no reason to think that helped her at all.

no need to show just knowledge. its intellect and understanding aswell.

intelligent people, the really smart like Mckay's supposed to be, are socially impotent. its cause there are barely any similar people to them. the smarter you are, the less equally smart people there are. high IQ, low EQ. its true. mckay showing his incompetence at love was fun. now he's succeeded at that, where are his flaws? humans have flaws. Carter had flaws, as she couldnt always understand everything. she loved someone but could not outright show it. a forbidden love. and that was great.

[EvilSpaceAlien]

Both have made some incredible achievements, and I always thought that Carter was smarter, purely cos shes not a spazz most the time like Mckay is, and she originally cracked the stargate, blew up a sun not to mention she was the one on SG1 and the one that the SGC always relied upon and not McKay, before atlantis obviously.

Yet some of the things that Mckay has done seem to be even beyond what the ancients did, like making a hyperdrive for a Jumper for example something the ancients didn't do and so probably couldn't and countless other things too.

Sure I love a sun or a solar system exploding and the smart guy solving things at the last minute with some really great explaination but things seem to have gotten entirely out of hand with the writers just throwing things into the show that really has no place in it just to make things easier to wrap up? Really like McKay and Zelenka being able to use the wormhole drive, a piece of technology that the ancients couldn't get working, nor could the asgard...

Do you agree or am I insane, don't get me wrong I love the show but sometimes things happen that just annoy me.

Is this going to be a problem for universe with seemingly two genius's on the crew (David Blue and Robert Carlyle), both being main characters?

He designed the hyperdrive during Tao of Rodney when he was super-smart and had those funky powers

[Bareassedmunky]

no need to show just knowledge. its intellect and understanding aswell.


But if she had a better understanding of goa'uld tech because of the tok'ra, then they would have stated that much on the show. Otherwise, it's just speculation on your part.


intelligent people, the really smart like Mckay's supposed to be, are socially impotent. its cause there are barely any similar people to them. the smarter you are, the less equally smart people there are. high IQ, low EQ. its true. mckay showing his incompetence at love was fun. now he's succeeded at that, where are his flaws? humans have flaws. Carter had flaws, as she couldnt always understand everything. she loved someone but could not outright show it. a forbidden love. and that was great.

McKay's flaws didn't disappear because he got the girl, they got worse as seasons went on, which is why he became a cartoon character.

And are you saying all intelligent people are socially impotent...bit of a sweeping statement. Thats a stereotype, and characters based on stereotypes are always awful...just like McKay was

[thekillman]

And are you saying all intelligent people are socially impotent...bit of a sweeping statement. Thats a stereotype, and characters based on stereotypes are always awful...just like McKay was

not completely impotent. but the smarter you get, the harder it becomes to find "similars"

mckay's ubersmartness would only leave a few people with similar intellext

[Skydiver]

Say what? Because brilliant scientists can only be maladjusted dorks?

Keller doesn't have to be blind, just not incredibly shallow.
no, they're not. but i also work with alot of very intelligent men that build roads and bridges but have the social skills of a 10 year old :)

[Skydiver]

not completely impotent. but the smarter you get, the harder it becomes to find "similars"

mckay's ubersmartness would only leave a few people with similar intellext
add to that his inherent arrogance, and you get someone distinctly anti social :)

[The Dark Destroyer]

Mckay was only able to get the puddle jumpers equipped with hyperdrive capabilities because he started doing it when he was genetically altered in Tao of Rodney. During Adrift he only needed to finish what he already started. He already had the majority of the work done.

And I'm pretty sure blowing up a sun was Jacob/Selmac's idea and he probably told Carter how too do it. Sam is always getting help from aliens in order to get the job done.

[thekillman]

blowing up that sun was easy.

[The Dark Destroyer]

Also, Rodney and the expedition had some advantages over the Ancients. Rodney mostly had ree reign over all the data available to him as long as he could make it work to his advantage. The Ancients usually handled everything by committee, making things harder to get done in much the same way the government held back the SGC on occasion. Some of the most important advances in Earth's technology came from Janus, simply because he didn't allow the rest to hold him back. The Ancients often played it safe, rejecting risk, confident in their strength and comfortable with their technology. Rodney had the pressure of saving the Galaxy from superior Wraith. The way it was presented in EatG, it seems wormhole drive is something of a coin flip, 50/50 you make it or you're vaporized. One last-ditch attempt to save your home planet is worth it, but mass application is utterly impractical, especially when your other technologies allow you to do extraordinary things.

Very well put.

[Mclean]

The jumper hyperdrive was created when Rodney had the knowledge of the Ancients. I assume they could have built one if the wanted but they Aurora ships with hyperdrives and it's possible that the science ships mentioned in Echoes had hyperdrives, so there was no real need for PJ's to have them.

As for the wormhole drive, I'm guessing that it may have been completed around the time the Wraith were laying siege to the Lantean homeworld, so they may never have got the chance to use it (due to the fact the Wraith would have annihilated Atlantis if had tried to take off).

[Skydiver]

at the end of the day, these guys are as smart as the plot needs them to be.

and if something bad had happened and david hewlett had to miss an episode, zelenka woulda miraculously figured it out :)

[thekillman]

true

[Aewon]

Ancients built wormhole drive, they would have used it on all of their ships if they could get it working, asgard studied the ancient database not to mention were pretty buddy buddy with them, if they could have gotten it working they would have used it too.

You must have been drowzing or something when that Asgard mentioned that the Asgard had the Ancient database, because he said that even they had only scratched the surface. Besides, they might be advanced, but the Ancients were so much more advanced that it would kind of be like us (the real-life us) trying to figure out how Asgard technology works.

[thekillman]

i doubt that last part. and judging from dialogue, its a gambling machine, and you gamble with your life. win, and you live and are instantly transported. loose, and you die and the ship you're in is destroyed

[Phenom]

i doubt that last part. and judging from dialogue, its a gambling machine, and you gamble with your life. win, and you live and are instantly transported. loose, and you die and the ship you're in is destroyed

Exactly right. Sure they made it in the end and saved the day, but if they tried it again tomorrow it would probably end in tears. Flukes do happen, the ancients probably realised that there was no point blowing up a cityship just to see if it worked. Better wait til it was perfected before giving it a crack, given there was really no rush for them (like a season finale!)

[Lucylee]

Originally Posted by thekillman
Mckay is more unbelievable than carter when it comes to intellect, but is more believable when it comes to social interaction. untill he and keller, naturally. thats plain stupid. she has to be blind.

Say what? Because brilliant scientists can only be maladjusted dorks?

Keller doesn't have to be blind, just not incredibly shallow.

Or someone with serious daddy-issues....;)

[thekillman]

or she's desperate for a friend and love, just as Mckay.


also, the ancients are old, very old. to them time must be nothing. besides, they probably wanted to reduce the chance of annihilation by the device first.

[sramir2]

at the end of the day, these guys are as smart as the plot needs them to be.

and if something bad had happened and david hewlett had to miss an episode, zelenka woulda miraculously figured it out :)

True that's where the writing comes in to play(or should I say lack there of)

[PG15]

Mckay is more unbelievable than carter when it comes to intellect, but is more believable when it comes to social interaction. untill he and keller, naturally. thats plain stupid. she has to be blind.

There is a McKay Thunk thread.

Your argument is invalid.

[Pandora's_Box]

Yet some of the things that Mckay has done seem to be even beyond what the ancients did, like making a hyperdrive for a Jumper for example something the ancients didn't do and so probably couldn't and countless other things too.

It's a lot easier to make something work when someone else has done 90% of the work for you.


Say what? Because brilliant scientists can only be maladjusted dorks?

Well, not. But more often than not brilliant scientists are less socially adjusted than the general population. It comes with the territory for two reasons - 1. more time is spent in a lab or doing research than out in social situations and 2. different priorities. Whereas most people would discuss pop culture or the latest gossip, most scientifically-oriented people find other things amusing.

It's not a bad thing or anything. It just is. It's like comparing the interests of someone who's studied her whole life to become a ballet dancer and someone who plays MMO's all day along, and then wondering why they have so little to talk about.


Or someone with serious daddy-issues....;)

Say what now? Because she's attracted to an older man, she has daddy issues?

[Bareassedmunky]

But more often than not brilliant scientists are less socially adjusted than the general population.

'More often than not' is usually a statement that should be accompanied by a statistic backing it up.

It's a stereotype rather than an actual representation of the social skills of geniuses. Characters based on stereotype are never good. Characters that contradict stereotypes are a thousand times better than characters that are written to suit a template

[Puddle-Jumper]

Except you used an example to support your assertion, and Coronach just proved that your example is useless.

So keep the examples coming if you want to prove your point.

And, of course, if we can explain all of your examples, then you have no case. ;)

Guys your ignoring my original point here, and that is about the writing of the show and not the wormhole drive or anything else, we could argue all day about them but the point is that McKay should not able to use ancient technology with the competancy that he does (even after 5 years.. how long did the asgard say they were studying the ancient database for again????), he basically clicks his fingers and solves problems by doing things the ancients either couldn't or never thought of doing and the writers just pulling solutions out of the sky, again I point toward the wormhole drive here because that literally was pulled out of nowhere, (can you deny that? no) and my point was, if the calculations were complex and it was unstable for the ancients, no human however intelligent should be able do it in a few hours, or are the tauri better then the ancients and the asgard now?????????

I say asgard cos by the end of SG1 were probably pretty close to where the ancients were in terms of technological advancement in pegasus

Plenty of other people posted here agreeing with me about the bad writing of McKay, and carter to a certain extent.. maybe not as bad cos shes awesome hot.. but still..

[Puddle-Jumper]

It's a lot easier to make something work when someone else has done 90% of the work for you.


If I 90% completed a car could a cave man finish it? Thats the comparison your making cos the ancients are a good 15,000 years more advanced then us minimum, all of earths advanced technology is just borrowed, there really isn't anything at all that we have made for ourself, and fair enough McKay understands those technologies to a certain extent, but then again knowing how a fridge works doesn't help you use a microwave does it? and knowing how a gun works doesn't help you build a tv, the technologies are based on countless difference principles , understanding one doesn't neccesarily help you with another, and from our first meeting with the tollan its fairly obvious that the tauris understanding of science is a long way off that of the ancients and other space faring civilisations.

[PG15]

Guys your ignoring my original point here, and that is about the writing of the show and not the wormhole drive or anything else, we could argue all day about them but the point is that McKay should not able to use ancient technology with the competancy that he does (even after 5 years.. how long did the asgard say they were studying the ancient database for again????), he basically clicks his fingers and solves problems by doing things the ancients either couldn't or never thought of doing and the writers just pulling solutions out of the sky, again I point toward the wormhole drive here because that literally was pulled out of nowhere, (can you deny that? no) and my point was, if the calculations were complex and it was unstable for the ancients, no human however intelligent should be able do it in a few hours, or are the tauri better then the ancients and the asgard now?????????

Did you not read Coronach's post at all? Regarding the wormhole drive, it is again your assumption that the Ancients never got it to work; they very well could have made it work, but it would still be unstable and power-taxing. There was no evidence that Zelenka and McKay solved any of the problems; what was apparent is that it worked this once, with Woolsey warning people beforehand that they could be vaporized - thus it seems like they didn't fix much of anything. Heck, it looked like they just "turned it on".

I'm aware that I'm putting my own assumptions in here but...it negates the problem. :D

You say that McKay and/or Carter were written badly because they often do things the Ancients and the Asgard couldn't (though the word "wouldn't" doesn't seem to enter into the discussion, even though motivation to do something is as important as the ability to do that thing). You used an example to support your claims. Your example is explained away and no longer supports your claims, thus your claims are baseless. If you want to prove your point, then you need to offer other examples. What part of this logical sequence of events do you not get?

By all means rant about the unrealisticness, but that's all it'll be, a rant. If you want to offer an actual argument, then you need EXAMPLES.

[Skydiver]

rant or no rant, the topic is the writing of mckay and carter, not an argument about whether or not a wormhole drive can be done and by whom

And folks, before you get your knickers in a knot over believability, let's remember, this is a tv show where artistic license is taken as a matter of course

[Pandora's_Box]

'More often than not' is usually a statement that should be accompanied by a statistic backing it up.

I'm taking this from my own personal experience then seeing as how I lack the time and the inclination to actually search for a research paper on the topic.

Go to the physics or chemistry or even biology departments of any university and you'll see what I mean.



It's a stereotype rather than an actual representation of the social skills of geniuses. Characters based on stereotype are never good. Characters that contradict stereotypes are a thousand times better than characters that are written to suit a template

Just because it's a stereotype, doesn't mean it's not true.

Every character has nuances and layers (or should anyway) so regardless of whether or not their basic character type suits a "template", it's the little things that set them apart from every other genius out there.

The fact of the matter is that people go into certain professions or follow certain lifepaths because it both suits their personalities and suits their interests. So if someone is naturally an introvert, they will have careers that suit that tendency and vice versa. This obviously serves to propagate stereotypes, but it's an inescapable fact of life.

So could Rodney have been a super cool, extrovert like Rod (from the alternate reality)? Sure. But the chances are still higher that he wouldn't have been. Now obviously Rodney is an extreme version of the character type.

As for characters who contradict these stereotypes being better....

Eh, again, it depends on the writing because being contradictory purely for it's own sake is a trap many writers fall into often.

And if you think about it, Rodney does contradict the stereotype too; after all, while many scientists may be dismissive and socially maladjusted, they are essentially harmless and do not mean ill. Rodney, on the other hand, knows full well that he's being an ass and does it on purpose.


If I 90% completed a car could a cave man finish it? Thats the comparison your making cos the ancients are a good 15,000 years more advanced then us minimum, all of earths advanced technology is just borrowed, there really isn't anything at all that we have made for ourself, and fair enough McKay understands those technologies to a certain extent, but then again knowing how a fridge works doesn't help you use a microwave does it? and knowing how a gun works doesn't help you build a tv, the technologies are based on countless difference principles , understanding one doesn't neccesarily help you with another, and from our first meeting with the tollan its fairly obvious that the tauris understanding of science is a long way off that of the ancients and other space faring civilisations.

Dude, Rodney is a genius. TPTB have established that he is in fact one of the most brilliant minds on the planet. He grasps concepts like we breathe.

He devised a way to save an entire galaxy of people in The Last Man by bringing Sheppard back through time and preserving his own consciousness for as an AI for tens of thousands of years. That's insanely complicated. That's like incomprehensibly complicated.

Maybe it's too unbelievable. Maybe no one is that smart. But I say why not. Maybe it just seems that way because no one has done it yet.

I bet 100 years ago no one would have believed a person could do what Einstein did or what Hawking did.

[sbz]

Dude, Rodney is a genius. TPTB have established that he is in fact one of the most brilliant minds on the planet. He grasps concepts like we breathe.

But one of the smartest humans alive isn't automatically equal to or even comparable to even the dumbest of Ancients (or Asgard, or any other civilization that was esatblished as being tens of thousands of years ahead of humans).



He devised a way to save an entire galaxy of people in The Last Man by bringing Sheppard back through time and preserving his own consciousness for as an AI for tens of thousands of years. That's insanely complicated. That's like incomprehensibly complicated.

None of this was exactly/strictly an original idea though. How many times have characters time traveled on Stargate? Many. How many VR, AI, and holographic programs, etc have they encountered - many. So, I think that speaks to his ability/feasability to come up with the plan becasue all he had to do was pull together ideas of things he already knew were possible, and he already had a lot of the tech for (like the holographic system on Atlantis).

I find the wormhole drive way more implausible because it literally materialized out of thin air.

So, to answer the original question, yes I think that was bad/weak writing. It was, quite literally, deus ex machina. The writers wrote themselves into a corner and pulled out this fantastic piece of tech to fix it while disregarding that it created a gigantic plot hole.

I can't think of any instance of this on SG-1. Did Carter or any SG-1 character pull out a previously totally unknown piece of tech in the eleventh hour to save the day?

Heh, it reminds me of the old Batman TV show. Batman always had exactly the item he needed on his utility belt to get out of any situation, even if it had never been used before and indeed was only useful in the predicament of the week. I often wondered why the villians never just took his utility belt away from him.

It seems much the same could be said for Stargate - kidnap Rodney McKay and Atlantis would apparently be paralyzed (or in his absence, every other scientist would experience a sudden and dramatic inflation of their intellect).

Anyway, back on topic. I think there was a lot of bad/weak writing in general and it just looks like bad writing for McKay and Carter (but more McKay, I agree) becasue, as Sky said, they were the "fix it" characters who had to deliver the deus ex machina without it looking or sounding like such.

[Puddle-Jumper]

He designed the hyperdrive during Tao of Rodney when he was super-smart and had those funky powers

I know, in terms of fanness Im pretty awesome, I have the earth point of origin tattood on my back so you can assume I know all those details already.

It was said in that episode if I remember correctly and I think I am, he said it wasn't finished and then he got it working, but without the crazy powers he really shouldn't have been able to make it, I mean the level of science required to make it work, even if it was 90% complete thats still 10% of science that should have taken him months if not years to make work, just another example of McKay being able to pull ancient level genius level out of where the sun don't shine

eg the second time O'Neill got headsucked he improved the hyperdrive on the alkesh, carter was never able to work that out, yet McKay in Atlantis with a similar situation, one could argue the exact same, both extremely advanced ancient science, yet he was able to finish it with ease almost
Bad writing!

Again don't get me wrong I love SG1 and I really like Atlantis yet the leap in the tauris intelligence between them seems to be huge

[Pandora's_Box]

But one of the smartest humans alive isn't automatically equal to or even comparable to even the dumbest of Ancients (or Asgard, or any other civilization that was esatblished as being tens of thousands of years ahead of humans).

You don't know that.

Look, one person being as smart as an Ancient isn't going to achieve a hell of a lot in terms of world-altering developments, but a million people? Or everyone being that smart? Now there's an altered human civilisation.

My point is that it has to start somewhere and with someone. It's evolutionary law. The mutation occurs, uber brilliance is born, and from that point the strong survive and the weak don't. It takes years and years and years, yes, but at some point it'll so happen that the human population as a whole will be comparable on an intellectual level with the Ancients.

To clarify, the Ancients were smarter than the human civilisation yes, but that doesn't necessarily make them that much smarter than McKay.



None of this was exactly/strictly an original idea though. How many times have characters time traveled on Stargate? Many. How many VR, AI, and holographic programs, etc have they encountered - many. So, I think that speaks to his ability/feasability to come up with the plan becasue all he had to do was pull together ideas of things he already knew were possible, and he already had a lot of the tech for (like the holographic system on Atlantis).

'Cause calculating and predicting a solar flare with the right properties for the right time travel is supposed to be easy?

When was that done?



Anyway, back on topic. I think there was a lot of bad/weak writing in general and it just looks like bad writing for McKay and Carter (but more McKay, I agree) becasue, as Sky said, they were the "fix it" characters who had to deliver the deus ex machina without it looking or sounding like such.

I don't think it's so much weak writing for either McKay or Carter as it is bad science.

[PG15]

Actually, all he said was that he was "very close to giving one of [their] Puddle Jumpers a hyperdrive".

So, who knows what that means? 90%? 99% 99.9999%? 50%?

Anyways, since us humans have been making and using hyperdrives ever since Redemption (and fiddling around with them ever since...well, before that), I don't think it's as hard as you think it is.

Gotta give it up for the writers; they make things just vague enough so that things can be explained like this. :D

[Aragon101/Loneranger-1]

I think there's alot more to it than bad or inconsistent writing.

SBZ said it best, They wrote themselves into a corner.

There's a little phrase i like to use, "Technology Pollution" Stargate has become a serious offender in creating it.

in what amounts to 12 years, Earth has gone from barely understanding Stargate Travel, to building ships capable of going to another galaxy. (Pegasus is like 3 million light years away)

I recall in SG1 Carter often complaining that the technology they were being exposed to (I remember specifically the Tollan) was just too advanced and she couldn't even begin to reverse engineer it. Of course the Asgard helped, but SG1 usually tried to veer away from giving them way too much pretty light shows... uhh i mean... Intergalactic battle carriers :D

The more advanced the science, the less we the common people can hope to understand it, the more it seems they're becoming UberGeeks on par with the Ancients (Rodney especially).

I sorta understand why people love Rodney so much. He's a bit of a bumbling genius, but his heart's usually in the right place. Alot of people might be able to identify with this for various reasons.

But in my own personal opinion i believed him more in season 1 and the first half of season 2 than in the rest of the show where he becomes this reluctant hero that saves the day with his tablet. I haven't even bothered watching Season 5 with any real zeal simply because it becomes tedious, and McKeller is about as appealing to me as a phrase George Carlin once said about a certain appendage and infection.

Same goes with SG1, i LOVED seasons 1-7 (A few episodes in 8 were golden) but most of 8 to 10 were bleh IMO. Neither of the two movies so far have piqued my interest beyond a viewing or two as it just gets too unbelievable.

In closing, i think it's less a matter of bad writing, and more a matter of lack of good writing due to the creative muse being depleted, and having to fall back on subpar plots that are driven by some... peculiar motives. (I'd mention specifics but meh)

[Puddle-Jumper]

Did you not read Coronach's post at all? Regarding the wormhole drive, it is again your assumption that the Ancients never got it to work; they very well could have made it work, but it would still be unstable and power-taxing. There was no evidence that Zelenka and McKay solved any of the problems; what was apparent is that it worked this once, with Woolsey warning people beforehand that they could be vaporized - thus it seems like they didn't fix much of anything. Heck, it looked like they just "turned it on".

I'm aware that I'm putting my own assumptions in here but...it negates the problem. :D

You say that McKay and/or Carter were written badly because they often do things the Ancients and the Asgard couldn't (though the word "wouldn't" doesn't seem to enter into the discussion, even though motivation to do something is as important as the ability to do that thing). You used an example to support your claims. Your example is explained away and no longer supports your claims, thus your claims are baseless. If you want to prove your point, then you need to offer other examples. What part of this logical sequence of events do you not get?

By all means rant about the unrealisticness, but that's all it'll be, a rant. If you want to offer an actual argument, then you need EXAMPLES.

I ask are you not reading my posts?.... Fine forget all the examples, my basic point that I wanted to get across in this thread is that of the bad writing where Rodney could do and understand things that to the ancients is pretty cutting edge technology or at least pretty modern by their standards (as evident by its what they were currently using and experimenting with (Thats a fact) FOR EXAMPLE the wormhold drive, drones, chair interface, the trinity device that rodney was confident he could get that to work... (more facts) he shouldn't have even been able to even grasp the science behind that, thats pretty obviously a piece of cutting edge lantian hardware), someone else in here said that Carter said in SG1 when they first met the tollan that she wouldn't even be able to begin to understand that technology (I remember that, again fact)... the ancients are a frack more advanced then the tollan (fact)... so even though ten years have passed Rodney McKay should not be able to grasp these concepts and technologies so quickly.

[thekillman]

we're not advanced. asgard tech is made by the press of a button. just cause the asgard made a technology maker, does not mean WE can make it. before we even understand the physics behind it, we're hundreds of years further.

the best analogy is to the Repository. it's gonna take us thousands of years to even begin comprehending what's really in it.



ancient tech... welll did anyone think of the possibility that its extremely userfriendly? like jumpers with their cloaks?

[PG15]

I ask are you not reading my posts?.... Fine forget all the examples, my basic point that I wanted to get across in this thread is that of the bad writing where Rodney could do and understand things that to the ancients is pretty cutting edge technology or at least pretty modern by their standards (as evident by its what they were currently using and experimenting with (Thats a fact) FOR EXAMPLE the wormhold drive, drones, chair interface, the trinity device that rodney was confident he could get that to work... (more facts) he shouldn't have even been able to even grasp the science behind that, thats pretty obviously a piece of cutting edge lantian hardware), someone else in here said that Carter said in SG1 when they first met the tollan that she wouldn't even be able to begin to understand that technology (I remember that, again fact)... the ancients are a frack more advanced then the tollan (fact)... so even though ten years have passed Rodney McKay should not be able to grasp these concepts and technologies so quickly.

Thank you for those examples. :p

Thinking about this, I think I can sum it up in one word what my position is: vagueness. It's a word. I'm sure of it.

It's easy to assume the concepts are ridiculously difficult to understand because the Ancients are so far ahead of us, but the fact is, we don't know what the concepts are and how complex it really is, and thus we don't know how easily it'll be for an Earth genius to figure it all out. I've met some pretty smart, highly educated people, and they talk concepts I couldn't have any hope of understanding. I've read quite a few peer-reviewed journal articles that just fly over my head like if they were in hyperspace - and yet, I fully expect myself to be like them in a few dozen years time (hopefully). I think we might be underestimating what a human genius is capable of.

And then there is the possibility that there is a primer in the Ancient database on some of technologies; we know from The Pegasus Project that there are learning programs for young Lantians.

*Imagines Rodney and Radek sitting back and enjoying a lecture from Hologram Ganos Lal*

LOL. Fanfic writers, get on this.

So yeah, I don't expect any of our scientists to look at a device and know what it does right away, but after a few hours/days/weeks/months of research and pouring over the database, I would have no problem seeing them using the device or even maybe modifying a relatively-unimportant feature of it. Honestly, look at 38 Minutes, Rodney's way of "making things work" is jabbing at crystals hoping one of his jabs will allow something to happen. This is probably what they've been doing since the beginning; using trial and error to make things work and figure things out. Furthermore, there is a lot of missing time; we only see what's in the episodes; the rest of the time, they could be researching all those things.

[Aragon101/Loneranger-1]

Thank you for those examples. :p

Thinking about this, I think I can sum it up in one word what my position is: vagueness. It's a word. I'm sure of it.

It's easy to assume the concepts are ridiculously difficult to understand because the Ancients are so far ahead of us, but the fact is, we don't know what the concepts are and how complex it really is, and thus we don't know how easily it'll be for an Earth genius to figure it all out. I've met some pretty smart, highly educated people, and they talk concepts I couldn't have any hope of understanding. I've read quite a few peer-reviewed journal articles that just fly over my head like if they were in hyperspace - and yet, I fully expect myself to be like them in a few dozen years time (hopefully). I think we might be underestimating what a human genius is capable of.

And then there is the possibility that there is a primer in the Ancient database on some of technologies; we know from The Pegasus Project that there are learning programs for young Lantians.

*Imagines Rodney and Radek sitting back and enjoying a lecture from Hologram Ganos Lal*

LOL. Fanfic writers, get on this.

So yeah, I don't expect any of our scientists to look at a device and know what it does right away, but after a few hours/days/weeks/months of research and pouring over the database, I would have no problem seeing them using the device or even maybe modifying a relatively-unimportant feature of it. Honestly, look at 38 Minutes, Rodney's way of "making things work" is jabbing at crystals hoping one of his jabs will allow something to happen. This is probably what they've been doing since the beginning; using trial and error to make things work and figure things out. Furthermore, there is a lot of missing time; we only see what's in the episodes; the rest of the time, they could be researching all those things.

This does make sense to me in a degree, but if you'll recall from Tao Of Rodney, when he looked at the math he'd come up with after, he pretty much was completely in the dark about it.

I LOLed at your "Jabbing of Crystals" comment. I would think that with Trial and Error there would be a few more explosions around Atlantis than we've had so far.

Rodney: Argh, Crystal the two is not the one i need.

Sheppard: Try that one, it looks like it just wants to be jabbed with a Stylus.

Rodney: *Rolls eyes and Jabs Crystal*

*BOOOOM! sends McKay flying and all his exposed hair is burnt off.*

Sheppard: Rodney! Dammit Rodney are you okay!?

*Medics come and revive the now hairless Rodney*

Sheppard: Rodney! Oh thank god, you pulled through again!

Rodney: I... i saw Issac Newton...

Sheppard: Really? What'd he say?

Rodney: He said... stop poking crystals... and RTFM

Sheppard: RTFM?

Rodney: Read the friggin manual... but then a whale ate me.

Sheppard: We need more psychiatrists on base.

[PG15]

This does make sense to me in a degree, but if you'll recall from Tao Of Rodney, when he looked at the math he'd come up with after, he pretty much was completely in the dark about it.

True, but after a few months of staring at it with a room full of brilliant scientists? Maybe things will become a little clearer. Maaaaaaybe.


I LOLed at your "Jabbing of Crystals" comment. I would think that with Trial and Error there would be a few more explosions around Atlantis than we've had so far.

Rodney: Argh, Crystal the two is not the one i need.

Sheppard: Try that one, it looks like it just wants to be jabbed with a Stylus.

Rodney: *Rolls eyes and Jabs Crystal*

*BOOOOM! sends McKay flying and all his exposed hair is burnt off.*

Sheppard: Rodney! Dammit Rodney are you okay!?

*Medics come and revive the now hairless Rodney*

Sheppard: Rodney! Oh thank god, you pulled through again!

Rodney: I... i saw Issac Newton...

Sheppard: Really? What'd he say?

Rodney: He said... stop poking crystals... and RTFM

Sheppard: RTFM?

Rodney: Read the friggin manual... but then a whale ate me.

Sheppard: We need more psychiatrists on base.

:lol:

Welcome to Gateworld! I think you'll fit in very well. ;)

[thekillman]

"did i loose an eyebrow?"

sounds like mythbusters

[Bareassedmunky]

Thinking about this, I think I can sum it up in one word what my position is: vagueness. It's a word. I'm sure of it.

It's easy to assume the concepts are ridiculously difficult to understand because the Ancients are so far ahead of us, but the fact is, we don't know what the concepts are and how complex it really is, and thus we don't know how easily it'll be for an Earth genius to figure it all out. I've met some pretty smart, highly educated people, and they talk concepts I couldn't have any hope of understanding. I've read quite a few peer-reviewed journal articles that just fly over my head like if they were in hyperspace - and yet, I fully expect myself to be like them in a few dozen years time (hopefully). I think we might be underestimating what a human genius is capable of.

Vagueness in storytelling is a good thing?

In the early days, the ancients were built up in the early days as being so far beyond any other civilisation. Goa'uld tech was derived from ancient tech, but it was nowhere near as advanced because they couldn't understand it fully to utilise it. The asgard studied the repository for years, but had only started to scratch the surface.

This would imply that the tech is pretty complex, and that making it seem relatively simple contradicts years of back story, massively devaluing the early series.

[pkprd869]

This does make sense to me in a degree, but if you'll recall from Tao Of Rodney, when he looked at the math he'd come up with after, he pretty much was completely in the dark about it.

I LOLed at your "Jabbing of Crystals" comment. I would think that with Trial and Error there would be a few more explosions around Atlantis than we've had so far.

Rodney: Argh, Crystal the two is not the one i need.

Sheppard: Try that one, it looks like it just wants to be jabbed with a Stylus.

Rodney: *Rolls eyes and Jabs Crystal*

*BOOOOM! sends McKay flying and all his exposed hair is burnt off.*

Sheppard: Rodney! Dammit Rodney are you okay!?

*Medics come and revive the now hairless Rodney*

Sheppard: Rodney! Oh thank god, you pulled through again!

Rodney: I... i saw Issac Newton...

Sheppard: Really? What'd he say?

Rodney: He said... stop poking crystals... and RTFM

Sheppard: RTFM?

Rodney: Read the friggin manual... but then a whale ate me.

Sheppard: We need more psychiatrists on base.

That was hilarious.

[DesertFox2020]

Rodney: Argh, Crystal the two is not the one i need.

Sheppard: Try that one, it looks like it just wants to be jabbed with a Stylus.

Rodney: *Rolls eyes and Jabs Crystal*

*BOOOOM! sends McKay flying and all his exposed hair is burnt off.*

Sheppard: Rodney! Dammit Rodney are you okay!?

*Medics come and revive the now hairless Rodney*

Sheppard: Rodney! Oh thank god, you pulled through again!

Rodney: I... i saw Issac Newton...

Sheppard: Really? What'd he say?

Rodney: He said... stop poking crystals... and RTFM

Sheppard: RTFM?

Rodney: Read the friggin manual... but then a whale ate me.

Sheppard: We need more psychiatrists on base.
I almost fell off my chair....literally. I'm lucky my computer chair's back reclines or I would've flipped it over.

[PG15]

Vagueness in storytelling is a good thing?

Sometimes.


In the early days, the ancients were built up in the early days as being so far beyond any other civilisation. Goa'uld tech was derived from ancient tech, but it was nowhere near as advanced because they couldn't understand it fully to utilise it. The asgard studied the repository for years, but had only started to scratch the surface.

This would imply that the tech is pretty complex, and that making it seem relatively simple contradicts years of back story, massively devaluing the early series.

Yes, that implies that some tech are complex. Not all. In fact, it implies that some tech are simple enough to be understood by non-Ancients. I don't think our characters understand that much of Ancient tech; like I said, it seems like they just use it instead knowing all there is to know about it, and to investigate them = trial and error.

It's like..."put this wire here, and that crystal there and THIS will happen." "How? Why?" "I don't know, but it works."

[Bareassedmunky]

Yes, that implies that some tech are complex. Not all. In fact, it implies that some tech are simple enough to be understood by non-Ancients. I don't think our characters understand that much of Ancient tech; like I said, it seems like they just use it instead knowing all there is to know about it, and to investigate them = trial and error.

It's like..."put this wire here, and that crystal there and THIS will happen." "How? Why?" "I don't know, but it works."

But they use, repair and modify it a little too easily, even if we rationalise it to the point of believability, it devalues the artistic merit of the ancients and the level of power available to earth.

[PG15]

I can understand that. I personally have no problems with that, but I have no way to argue against it either.

[sbz]

You don't know that.

And you don't know what you're arguing, either. I didn't say it was a fact, I said just becasue he's a really smart human doesn't mean we can assume he'd hold his own among Ancients. There's nothing I'd consider hard proof, either way, so this is going to become a rather circular argument.

I will bring up this example though. In the SG-1 episodes The Quest pt 1 and 2 (so, season 10 here) Baal says to Carter (paraphrasing here) that, for a human, she's probably considered "reasonably intelligent" but from his perspective and in the context of the broader universe she simply isn't "that smart."

So, if a Goa'uld is saying that Carter isn't up there with him I think it's a reasonable extrapolation that McKay can't be up there with Ancients. Cause I think we'd agree the Anceints were smarter than the Goa'uld and that Carter and McKay are pretty comparable with each other.




My point is that it has to start somewhere and with someone. It's evolutionary law. The mutation occurs, uber brilliance is born, and from that point the strong survive and the weak don't. It takes years and years and years, yes, but at some point it'll so happen that the human population as a whole will be comparable on an intellectual level with the Ancients.

But just becasue someone's smart doesn't mean they're going to reproduce and pass that on. Survival of the fittest isn't that great an argument for the increasing intellect of the human race simply becasue it's no longer applicable. We don't, as a species, have to compete to survive. And, I have a suspicion that if you looked at birth stats the people you'd label as genuises (if you could even get stats ranked "intelligence") that those people have less kids.

Also, there's the argument of intelligence and if it's entirely genetic, etc. Just cause two really smart people have a kid doesn't mean it will be vastly intelligent. Finally, how much of it is acquired? People have to learn these things in the first place. My point is that an evolutionary argument for the constant, always increasing intellect of the human race isn't exactly as straightforward and cut and dried as it sounds.

Also, an individual can't evolve. And Rodney McKay as he was first introduced in Stargate was smart, sure, but he didn't come off as a supergenius who could do anything he wanted and would change the world with his intellect.



'Cause calculating and predicting a solar flare with the right properties for the right time travel is supposed to be easy?

When was that done?[quote]

In the SG-1 episode "2010" using the Aschen computers. Yes, I know it's an alternate timeline but it's proof the technology exists.

[quote=Pandora's_Box;10344080]
I don't think it's so much weak writing for either McKay or Carter as it is bad science.

Well, science is part of the writing so in my mind that makes it bad writing. And I agree with the character thing, which I thought I said in my last post. It's bad/weak writing that manifests as being bad writing for the characters since they have the deliver all the techno-babble.



It's easy to assume the concepts are ridiculously difficult to understand because the Ancients are so far ahead of us, but the fact is, we don't know what the concepts are and how complex it really is, and thus we don't know how easily it'll be for an Earth genius to figure it all out.

Well, an example unrelated to the Ancients. But remember in season 4 when Carter joined Thor to help with the Replicators and Thor was explaining how the Replicators worked? He was using words that encompassed concepts that Carter had never conceived of (and I believe she said something to that effect).

And the Tollan's tech to... walk through walls, I think?... well, something they had prompted Carter to say it contradicted all the current theories about... quantam mechanics? Or something. It was in the first season so forgive my imprecise details. But I know it was said becasue I can see the scene in my head.

So there are two canon proofs of concepts beyond human understanding (or at least current understanding). And to presume that in 10 years they could advance far enough to be modifying, building, improving Ancient tech licktysplit etc strains the bounds of realism (in my opinion, anyway).



And then there is the possibility that there is a primer in the Ancient database on some of technologies; we know from The Pegasus Project that there are learning programs for young Lantians.

But again, back to the Asgard/Replicator example above. If all the instruction books use words that McKay etc don't know the meaning of it's pretty useless.

[PG15]

I disagree. Sure, if someone just shouted "Kieron particle!!!!" I don't expect anyone to know what it is. If I just saw someone walk through a wall with an alien device, I wouldn't know it'd work. However, after 10 years of what I assume to be hard work on deciphering the various new alien tech available to us (and it's not just Sam or McKay; we're talking all of SGC and Area 51), I expect them to at least advance a little in understanding.

That said, understanding is not that important most of the time. Take the death of the replicators for example. Do they have to know what Kieron particles are or how the particles are linked together? Not really. All they know is that there's this doohicky that, when you set in the right way, fires off an energy field that destroys the replicators. No significant understanding necessary, and still galaxy = saved.

I don't know how Lantian children learn, but Earth children tend to start with the very very basics no matter how far we've advanced in science. However, the bottom line is, if I assume that the teaching hologram starts off easy, then there will be no plothole there.

[Aragon101/Loneranger-1]

(and it's not just Sam or McKay; we're talking all of SGC and Area 51)

but i think the point of discussion is how Sam and McKay are able to do all these things. Of course SGC and Area 51 are working, but they aren't the ones on the front lines. They might send memos like "Ohh! Remember 10 years ago you couldn't figure out Tollan Tech! We just cracked it!" or "Yeah, we just made a new modification to the Daedalus that increases Coffee Output by 12%!"

Granted, they are very very smart, but they each have other responsibilities that they need to take care of. Sam's a Colonel (or is it general now?) and McKay has to manage the Engineering and Research on Atlantis (as many episodes have plainly shown) as well as go and prevent Team Shep from being blown up (or be the cause of said blowing up).

Are they really sitting there learning from this Hologram when there's a Jack (Or John in my fic) or Jennifer(Where's Ronon when you need him?) to make out with?

[lordofseas]

No, Sam's still just a Colonel.

[sbz]

I disagree. Sure, if someone just shouted "Kieron particle!!!!" I don't expect anyone to know what it is. If I just saw someone walk through a wall with an alien device, I wouldn't know it'd work. However, after 10 years of what I assume to be hard work on deciphering the various new alien tech available to us (and it's not just Sam or McKay; we're talking all of SGC and Area 51), I expect them to at least advance a little in understanding.

But if it takes a scientist, for example, a theoretical astrophysicist (or whatever), what... 4 years for a bachelor's, at least two for a masters, maybe 3-5 for a phd - then maybe multiple phds... that's well over ten years of learning to be an expert in their field. If kieron particles or whatever are so different from what they currently know, if they have to essentially go back to the beginning and basics of kieron particles etc, it's going to take that long again or longer to come to a reasonably same level of knowledge.

So certainly, in 10 years they'll learn stuff, but all I'm saying is that they (Earth in general) advanced too quickly than is realistic (I think - because yeah, Area 51 and all the SGC scientists, but you're still talking about a relatively small number of people [compared to the scientific community of the greater US and the world] cause it's classified and all that) and Carter and McKay, who certainly didn't have the time to retrain and study indepth should not, realistically speaking, have such in depth knowledge/understanding, etc.


That said, understanding is not that important most of the time. Take the death of the replicators for example. Do they have to know what Kieron particles are or how the particles are linked together? Not really. All they know is that there's this doohicky that, when you set in the right way, fires off an energy field that destroys the replicators. No significant understanding necessary, and still galaxy = saved.

You realize you're kind of contradicting yourself now, right? Earlier you disagreed with people who were saying human [McKay's] expertise with Ancient tech was improbable and unrealisitc becasue the concepts of Ancient tech were beyond human understanding by saying:

"It's easy to assume the concepts are ridiculously difficult to understand because the Ancients are so far ahead of us, but the fact is, we don't know what the concepts are and how complex it really is, and thus we don't know how easily it'll be for an Earth genius to figure it all out."

To which I gave you concrete, canon proof of concepts totally beyond human understanding. And now you're saying they didn't need to understand it at all, just push random buttons, cross wires, and pull crystals to figure out buttons x, y, and z perform actions a, b, and c.


I don't know how Lantian children learn, but Earth children tend to start with the very very basics no matter how far we've advanced in science. However, the bottom line is, if I assume that the teaching hologram starts off easy, then there will be no plothole there.

And still I say it's entirely possible and even highly likely that Ancient basics are totally different from our bascis. So they'd need to start at the beginning and learn it all - a lifetime of learning. Among his other duties, McKay, and indeed all the other Atlantis scientist, simply did not have the time to essentially go back to full time school.

[PG15]

But if it takes a scientist, for example, a theoretical astrophysicist (or whatever), what... 4 years for a bachelor's, at least two for a masters, maybe 3-5 for a phd - then maybe multiple phds... that's well over ten years of learning to be an expert in their field.

Yeah, if they aren't geniuses. :p

I mean, a gifted child going through these things quickly is not unheard of. Heck, one of my buddies is tutoring a 13 year old girl that's starting to learn Calculus (meant for 1st-year University students 5 years older than her) because she's "bored". I also went through 1st year of University with at least three 15 year olds. I felt quite inadequate when I found out.

Maybe it's just me, but school is really meant for the Average. They go at a pace that'll work for as many people as possible. Truly brilliant people are just being held back by the slow pace of the school system; the thing that marks the Brilliant is how fast they can grasp concepts. While average people may need time to work things out, smart people can basically understand what's presented to them within a few hours or less.

At this point however, I think it comes down to subjecitivity. You think it's not realistic, I think it's marginally realistic (well, it is SciFi after all), but what we base that on seems to be a gray area of "how fast they can learn" and "how difficult is the concept" which I don't think we can pin down with anything we have in the show.


If kieron particles or whatever are so different from what they currently know, if they have to essentially go back to the beginning and basics of kieron particles etc, it's going to take that long again or longer to come to a reasonably same level of knowledge.

But Carter basically just heard the name, said she doesn't know what it is, and then dropped the subject because they were on the clock. Thus, we don't know what it is and how different it is from what we know since Carter didn't really study it in any way, shape, or form at the time. Like I said, if I just heard "kieron particles" with no further elucidation beyond that they are energy particles or whatever, then I'd be stumped too.

Just like if I heard "muons" and that they were "subatomic particles"; I'd be like, wha? But, if I took a class on Particle Physics, I'd know what it is (or, just google it).


You realize you're kind of contradicting yourself now, right? Earlier you disagreed with people who were saying human [McKay's] expertise with Ancient tech was improbable and unrealisitc becasue the concepts of Ancient tech were beyond human understanding by saying:

"It's easy to assume the concepts are ridiculously difficult to understand because the Ancients are so far ahead of us, but the fact is, we don't know what the concepts are and how complex it really is, and thus we don't know how easily it'll be for an Earth genius to figure it all out."

To which I gave you concrete, canon proof of concepts totally beyond human understanding. And now you're saying they didn't need to understand it at all, just push random buttons, cross wires, and pull crystals to figure out buttons x, y, and z perform actions a, b, and c.

It's not really a contradiction; it's more like making an out for myself. Lol.

If the concepts are indeed very tough, then I can just assume that they go on by trial and error; if it's not so tough, then I can assume that they understand a bit of it. I'm covered either way.




And still I say it's entirely possible and even highly likely that Ancient basics are totally different from our bascis. So they'd need to start at the beginning and learn it all - a lifetime of learning. Among his other duties, McKay, and indeed all the other Atlantis scientist, simply did not have the time to essentially go back to full time school.

Sure, it's possible, but since we have no proof either way, I'm content believing that there is enough basic material for them to make things work or maybe even make minor adjustments and modifications.

[Puddle-Jumper]

Vagueness in storytelling is a good thing?

In the early days, the ancients were built up in the early days as being so far beyond any other civilisation. Goa'uld tech was derived from ancient tech, but it was nowhere near as advanced because they couldn't understand it fully to utilise it. The asgard studied the repository for years, but had only started to scratch the surface.

This would imply that the tech is pretty complex, and that making it seem relatively simple contradicts years of back story, massively devaluing the early series.

Well put................... a bit too well put......... :D