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    Ancient Power Source

    I was just watching the Daedalus variations and was considering the subspace capacitor used to continuously draw power from subspace. It's possible this was a precursor to the ZPM as despite Mckay saying it provided near zpm power levels considering how quickly it could charge this seems unlikely possibly he was referring to the output capability. It's theorized though that puddle jumpers have a rechargeable energy source this could be why as even if depleted the capacitor will draw more power and recharge it. It would also make sense for the ancients to use zero point energy considering it had been their energy source for millions of years.

    #2
    The power scource from "the Daedalus variations" was more efficent then a ZPM.
    Caus it was taking power from subspace like ZPMs does, but the ZPM runs out of power if you jous it.
    The subspacetap does not, it continuesli draws power from subspace.
    Which is why the subspace tap is more eficent then a ZPM.
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      #3
      I don't know if a Subspace Tap should be classed in it's DV state as more efficient than a ZPM, of course it's not limited throughout it's lifespan by the amount of power it can generate like a ZPM is unless it burns out, a ZPM is described by Rodney in Rising as generating it's energy from a self contained region of space time so it's limited by the amount of overall power it can generate, but an ST is pulling amounts of energy from subspace but takes a number of minutes to generate as much power or a fraction of the power a ZPM generates in it's entire existence (depending on how power much ZPM levels of energy actually is), where as a ZPM can be depleted of it's entire energy capacity in seconds as was shown in Mr and Mrs Miller (season 3 of SGA).
      IMO an ST would be the perfect universal power source for future ships and even cities that may need shielding, perhaps with research Earth can refine the tech to fit in a hand held unit rather than a room sized one and tap as much power as a ZPM can in a second.

      As far as a Puddle Jumper's power source goes perhaps it's more like the Modulated Dampening field thing O'Neill built to power the gate in The Fifth Race, like a Naqueda Reactor, Jumpers IMO don't appear to need large quantities of power to fly, cloak use sensors and fire Drones, but I guess as it's never been clearly defined on the show anything's a possibility.
      Last edited by Rise Of The Phoenix; 09 March 2009, 09:19 PM.

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        #4
        Originally posted by Rise Of The Phoenix View Post
        I don't know if a Subspace Tap should be classed in it's DV state as more efficient than a ZPM, of course it's not limited throughout it's lifespan by the amount of power it can generate like a ZPM is unless it burns out, a ZPM is described by Rodney in Rising as generating it's energy from a self contained region of space time so it's limited by the amount of overall power it can generate, but an ST is pulling amounts of energy from subspace but takes a number of minutes to generate as much power or a fraction of the power a ZPM generates in it's entire existence (depending on how power much ZPM levels of energy actually is), where as a ZPM can be depleted of it's entire energy capacity in seconds as was shown in Mr and Mrs Miller (season 3 of SGA)..
        This pretty much hits the nail on the head: the Subspace Tap in "The Daedalus Variations" could generate nearly unlimited energy, but was restricted in its power output. ZPMs, on the other hand, store a finite amount of energy (though it is still ~10^30 joules) but has nearly unlimited power output.

        On the other hand, we don't know if the Subspace Tap actually does have an unlimited lifetime or if there are certain restrictions on its use that might make it a less than practical power supply. If it draws power from subspace in a manner similar to what we saw in "McKay and Mrs. Miller," then the only reason that the Subspace Tap didn't destroy the universe was because it jumped to a new universe before the exotic particles has sufficient chance to accumulate in subspace.
        "From East Middle School. Suzumiya Haruhi. I have no interest in ordinary humans. If there are any aliens, time travelers, sliders, or espers here, come join me."
        - The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya; Best Character Introduction Ever.

        "And can we lose the ten thousand year old dead plants?!"
        - Stargate: Atlantis (1x03) "Hide and Seek"

        "Hammerheads do not load/unload units immediately – they must descend to ground level first. Initial experiments involving jump-jetting infantry into the Hammerhead’s cargo compartment met with unfortunate results."
        - Command&Conquer 3: Kane's Wrath Hammerhead Unit Spotlight

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          #5
          Originally posted by Quadhelix View Post
          This pretty much hits the nail on the head: the Subspace Tap in "The Daedalus Variations" could generate nearly unlimited energy, but was restricted in its power output. ZPMs, on the other hand, store a finite amount of energy (though it is still ~10^30 joules) but has nearly unlimited power output.

          On the other hand, we don't know if the Subspace Tap actually does have an unlimited lifetime or if there are certain restrictions on its use that might make it a less than practical power supply. If it draws power from subspace in a manner similar to what we saw in "McKay and Mrs. Miller," then the only reason that the Subspace Tap didn't destroy the universe was because it jumped to a new universe before the exotic particles has sufficient chance to accumulate in subspace.
          Wasn't the McKay and Mrs Miller device doing the same thing as Acturas and tapping energy from the vacuum of space in another Universe/Reality and not subspace?
          You seem to know and understand way more about this stuff than I could probably ever hope to but if both a ZPM and an ST are tapping the energy they generate from the same source then wouldn't that explain why the two shouldn't cause exotic matter particals to be created and eventually destroy our Universe?

          If a ZPM doesn't generate exotic matter particals then surely neither should an ST, although I guess the action of containing the region of subspace time may prevent this, but I don't recall McKay or anyone else saying the ST would create dangerous particals.

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            #6
            subspace tap taps into subspace. arcturus tapped into vacuum energy, IE the substance of the universe

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              #7
              Originally posted by Rise Of The Phoenix View Post
              Wasn't the McKay and Mrs Miller device doing the same thing as Acturas and tapping energy from the vacuum of space in another Universe/Reality and not subspace?

              "McKay and Mrs. Miller" (3x08)
              (Emphases mine)
              CARTER: Exactly. Yeah, we’re hoping to use your proof as the theoretical basis for building a bridge from a parallel space time to ours.

              JEANIE: The energy you’d need would be enormous to the point of absurd.

              McKAY: Absurd we can do. We have something called a Zero Point Module which essentially does what we’re attempting on a smaller scale -- extract energy from subspace time.



              Originally posted by Rise Of The Phoenix View Post
              You seem to know and understand way more about this stuff than I could probably ever hope to but if both a ZPM and an ST are tapping the energy they generate from the same source then wouldn't that explain why the two shouldn't cause exotic matter particals to be created and eventually destroy our Universe?

              If a ZPM doesn't generate exotic matter particals then surely neither should an ST, although I guess the action of containing the region of subspace time may prevent this, but I don't recall McKay or anyone else saying the ST would create dangerous particals.
              A ZPM seems has the same problem as the Miller Spacetime Bridge: the buildup of exotic particles eventually collapses the "universe" being tapped. The main difference is that the universe being tapped by a ZPM is lifeless and incredibly small.

              In other words, if the Subspace Tap in "The Daedalus Variations" works by harnessing ZPE from open subspace instead of an alternate reality or pocket universe, then it would result in the destruction of the universe in several days, as was the risk in "McKay and Mrs. Miller." It was never an issue in "The Daedalus Variations," because the ship would "jump out" before it had created enough exotic particles to do any lasting harm, but such a power generation method would be nothing short of catastrophic put to any other sort of use.

              Of course, there is the possibility that the Subspace Tap in "The Daedalus Variations" drew its power from subspace by some other means, but the thread of exotic particles destroying the universe would explain why they never attempted to duplicate the power supply, if not the "Reality Drive."
              "From East Middle School. Suzumiya Haruhi. I have no interest in ordinary humans. If there are any aliens, time travelers, sliders, or espers here, come join me."
              - The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya; Best Character Introduction Ever.

              "And can we lose the ten thousand year old dead plants?!"
              - Stargate: Atlantis (1x03) "Hide and Seek"

              "Hammerheads do not load/unload units immediately – they must descend to ground level first. Initial experiments involving jump-jetting infantry into the Hammerhead’s cargo compartment met with unfortunate results."
              - Command&Conquer 3: Kane's Wrath Hammerhead Unit Spotlight

              Comment


                #8
                does the ZPM create harmfull particles? no. it depletes because of enthropy. maximum enthropy=minimum enthalpy. when max enthropy is reached, there is no energy left that can be harvested.

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                  #9
                  Can someone find me the quote from the season 5 mid season 2 parter where Mkay mentions that the Atterro device is powered by something more powerful than he's ever seen before.
                  Robert Jastrow (self-proclaimed agnostic): "For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries."

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by thekillman View Post
                    does the ZPM create harmfull particles? no. it depletes because of enthropy. maximum enthropy=minimum enthalpy. when max enthropy is reached, there is no energy left that can be harvested.
                    1. It's "entropy," not "enthropy"

                    2. In "Trinity," McKay says that the main problem with tapping ZPE from our universe instead of a pocket universe like a ZPM's is, "because we actually have to live in our own universe, it presents a whole range of problems" (here). In other words, exotic particle production in a ZPM isn't a problem, not because the ZPM does not produce them, but rather because it produces them where we do't have to worry about them vaporizing the universe.

                    I will also direct your attention to the following quote from "McKay and Mrs. Miller":
                    ROD: Well, imagine what would happen if you just threw the laws of physics out the window.

                    JEANIE: Entropy, and chaos.

                    ROD: Mmm. Worst-case scenario, the entropy expands as far as the subspace layers underneath our space time.

                    McKAY: It could travel almost instantaneously. I mean, your entire universe could just ... (he clicks his finger) ... flash out of existence.
                    "From East Middle School. Suzumiya Haruhi. I have no interest in ordinary humans. If there are any aliens, time travelers, sliders, or espers here, come join me."
                    - The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya; Best Character Introduction Ever.

                    "And can we lose the ten thousand year old dead plants?!"
                    - Stargate: Atlantis (1x03) "Hide and Seek"

                    "Hammerheads do not load/unload units immediately – they must descend to ground level first. Initial experiments involving jump-jetting infantry into the Hammerhead’s cargo compartment met with unfortunate results."
                    - Command&Conquer 3: Kane's Wrath Hammerhead Unit Spotlight

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Quadhelix View Post
                      "McKay and Mrs. Miller" (3x08)
                      (Emphases mine)

                      A ZPM seems has the same problem as the Miller Spacetime Bridge: the buildup of exotic particles eventually collapses the "universe" being tapped. The main difference is that the universe being tapped by a ZPM is lifeless and incredibly small.

                      In other words, if the Subspace Tap in "The Daedalus Variations" works by harnessing ZPE from open subspace instead of an alternate reality or pocket universe, then it would result in the destruction of the universe in several days, as was the risk in "McKay and Mrs. Miller." It was never an issue in "The Daedalus Variations," because the ship would "jump out" before it had created enough exotic particles to do any lasting harm, but such a power generation method would be nothing short of catastrophic put to any other sort of use.

                      Of course, there is the possibility that the Subspace Tap in "The Daedalus Variations" drew its power from subspace by some other means, but the thread of exotic particles destroying the universe would explain why they never attempted to duplicate the power supply, if not the "Reality Drive."
                      I just thought with the whole ZPM entropy thing that meant that the self contained region of subspace time a ZPM gets it's power from was void of useful energy when it reaches maximum entropy coz it's all been used up, it wasn't specifically stated that it creates exotic matter particals in that region of subspace time so it depends on what the writers mean by entropy, IMO they meant it simply didn't have any useful energy left to tap.

                      As far as I was aware the Miller Space Time Bridge was tapping energy from the vacuum of space in another reality/universe and not subspace, so wherever you're attempting to do that the process would be generating exotic matter particals in whatever universe/reality you were tapping power from.

                      Originally posted by Buba uognarf View Post
                      Can someone find me the quote from the season 5 mid season 2 parter where Mkay mentions that the Atterro device is powered by something more powerful than he's ever seen before.
                      I think this may be what you're after:

                      Source:http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s5...ipts/510.shtml

                      ALIEN LAB. Rodney is gazing thoughtfully through a window in the lab which looks into another room which has a large device in it with large antennae either side. After a while he turns around and walks back to the main console and looks down at it. Daniel, standing by another console near the opposite wall, turns around.

                      JACKSON: This facility's tapped into some pretty serious power generation. I've never seen anything like it before.

                      (Rodney has realised something.)

                      McKAY: You'd need a lot of power.

                      JACKSON: What?

                      McKAY (turning to face him): I think I know what this thing does.

                      JACKSON: What?

                      McKAY: It's an end game machine.
                      I did a pretty thorough search in the Gateworld transcript but I couldn't find any other mention of the device's power generation.
                      Last edited by Rise Of The Phoenix; 10 March 2009, 03:01 PM.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Rise Of The Phoenix View Post
                        I just thought with the whole ZPM entropy thing that meant that the self contained region of subspace time a ZPM gets it's power from was void of useful energy when it reaches maximum entropy coz it's all been used up, it wasn't specifically stated that it creates exotic matter particals in that region of subspace time so it depends on what the writers mean by entropy, IMO they meant it simply didn't have any useful energy left to tap.
                        True: the statements in "McKay and Mrs. Miller" aren't proof that I'm right, but they are proof that I'm not completely off kilter.

                        Also, in "Rising," McKay mentions that "maximum entropy" is completely irreversible. This would imply that there is something more significant than a lack of usable energy (a problem that could remedied, although inefficiently, by pumping more energy into the system).

                        In any case, my point isn't focused on what happens to a depleted ZPM, but rather on what was happening with the Miller Spacetime Bridge in "McKay and Mrs. Miller."



                        Originally posted by Rise Of The Phoenix View Post
                        As far as I was aware the Miller Space Time Bridge was tapping energy from the vacuum of space in another reality/universe and not subspace, so wherever you're attempting to do that the process would be generating exotic matter particals in whatever universe/reality you were tapping power from.
                        A. McKay almost explicitly states that they will be using the Spaceetime bridge to extract ZPE from subspace.

                        B. My real point is that the main threat of the episode was that, for whatever reason, exotic particles were building up in the alternate's spacetime's subspace, threatening the complete destruction of the alternate spacetime. Therefore, if the Subspace Tab in "The Daedalus Variations" worked by drawing ZPE from subspace, they could not use if for more than a few days without risking the complete destruction of the universe.
                        "From East Middle School. Suzumiya Haruhi. I have no interest in ordinary humans. If there are any aliens, time travelers, sliders, or espers here, come join me."
                        - The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya; Best Character Introduction Ever.

                        "And can we lose the ten thousand year old dead plants?!"
                        - Stargate: Atlantis (1x03) "Hide and Seek"

                        "Hammerheads do not load/unload units immediately – they must descend to ground level first. Initial experiments involving jump-jetting infantry into the Hammerhead’s cargo compartment met with unfortunate results."
                        - Command&Conquer 3: Kane's Wrath Hammerhead Unit Spotlight

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                          #13
                          Originally posted by Quadhelix View Post
                          A. McKay almost explicitly states that they will be using the Spaceetime bridge to extract ZPE from subspace.

                          B. My real point is that the main threat of the episode was that, for whatever reason, exotic particles were building up in the alternate's spacetime's subspace, threatening the complete destruction of the alternate spacetime. Therefore, if the Subspace Tab in "The Daedalus Variations" worked by drawing ZPE from subspace, they could not use if for more than a few days without risking the complete destruction of the universe.
                          A. It was most definatly from an alternate realities real space. The arcturus device works by extracting ZPE from normal space, they just shifted the problem whos normal space.

                          B. The threat was that dangerous particles were building up in that other realities normal space, and if they'd pass into subspace, they could move at FTL speeds and the Alt. universe would blink out of existence.

                          The subspace tap obviously works in a way similiar to a ZPM. Its unclear how powerfull it is, it could very well be orders of magnitude below a zpm, remember the we only needs a zpm to dial another galaxy, because our normal reactors arent powerfull enough, and we dont have other alien reactors, like the thing thor used, not because dialing another galaxy actualy needs significant percentages of zpms power. So just because you need a zpm to do it, doesnt mean you cant do it with something less powerfull, it only means that your normal stuff isnt good enough.


                          Covering up scandals and keeping secrets is almost a racial trait.

                          Isn't it funny how the word 'politics' is made up of the words 'poli' meaning 'many' in Latin, and 'tics' as in 'bloodsucking creatures’?

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                            #14
                            Originally posted by Quadhelix View Post
                            True: the statements in "McKay and Mrs. Miller" aren't proof that I'm right, but they are proof that I'm not completely off kilter.

                            Also, in "Rising," McKay mentions that "maximum entropy" is completely irreversible. This would imply that there is something more significant than a lack of usable energy (a problem that could remedied, although inefficiently, by pumping more energy into the system).
                            I assume this is what you're referring to from Rising (from the Gateworld Transcript of the episode):
                            McKAY: From what we've been able to ascertain, the city is powered by three Zero Point Modules. Two are entirely depleted and the third is reaching maximum entropy. When it does, it'll die too and nothing can reverse that.
                            Considering the situation the Atlantis team was in at the time I think it would make sense that if each ZPM was only designed to work off of a single contained region of subspace time then there would be no way, as far as Rodney knew for the ZPM to tap power from another new contained region of subspace time.
                            In any case, my point isn't focused on what happens to a depleted ZPM, but rather on what was happening with the Miller Spacetime Bridge in "McKay and Mrs. Miller."
                            Here's a quote from that episode, it seems too me at least that the Miller Space Time Bridge was mimicking what Acturus did but in the vacuum of another region of space time or reality.
                            CARTER: About a year ago, your brother came across an abandoned alien experiment called Project Arcturus.

                            (Rodney calls up the information on another screen as Sam continues talking.)

                            CARTER: It was an attempt to generate zero point energy.

                            JEANIE: That would be virtually limitless power. What happened?

                            McKAY: A slight problem. It was the creation of exotic particles in the containment field.

                            CARTER: He destroyed a solar system.

                            JEANIE: Meredith! (She smacks his arm.)

                            McKAY: It was uninhabited!

                            CARTER: Your brother, along with many others, has been trying to figure out a way to draw zero point energy from a parallel space time.

                            McKAY: Which would get us around the whole problem of the creation of dangerous exotic particles in our own space time.

                            JEANIE: And my theory is about bridging universes.

                            CARTER: Exactly. Yeah, we’re hoping to use your proof as the theoretical basis for building a bridge from a parallel space time to ours.

                            JEANIE: The energy you’d need would be enormous to the point of absurd.

                            McKAY: Absurd we can do. We have something called a Zero Point Module which essentially does what we’re attempting on a smaller scale -- extract energy from subspace time.
                            A. McKay almost explicitly states that they will be using the Spaceetime bridge to extract ZPE from subspace.
                            I did a check in the Gateworld transcript for the episode and I don't think he does, as you can see it's not explicitly stated either way in the above quote I got from Gateworld, but in your last post to thekillman you quoted the transcript for McKay and Mrs Miller and Rod says if the entropy reaches subspace which implies to me that it wouldn't start in subspace, if it's working like Acturus then surely it would be tapping energy from the vacuum of another reality/universe's space time.
                            B. My real point is that the main threat of the episode was that, for whatever reason, exotic particles were building up in the alternate's spacetime's subspace, threatening the complete destruction of the alternate spacetime. Therefore, if the Subspace Tab in "The Daedalus Variations" worked by drawing ZPE from subspace, they could not use if for more than a few days without risking the complete destruction of the universe.
                            As I've pointed out above the Miller Space Time Bridge seems to be doing what Acturus did tapping energy from the vacuum of space that belongs to another universe, if tapping power from our own subspace time doesn't generate exotic matter particals then it should be safe, the only reason I can see TPTB not using the ST in another episode after Daedalus Variations is that it would give Earth too much power, I mean they've got the plasma beam weapons and other tech so to add a ZPM style power source would basically give us a bunch of Odysseys.

                            STs and ZPMs are still drawing energy from the same place in our Universe, from the Rising quote I posted above ZPMs just seem to be depleted of energy once they reach maximum entropy, if a ZPM is drawing energy from our universe's subspace then surely given that the Ancients weren't able to contain exotic matter particals in our space time then they wouldn't be able to contain them in the contained region of subspace time that a ZPM draws it's power from.

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                              #15
                              Originally posted by Rise Of The Phoenix View Post
                              Considering the situation the Atlantis team was in at the time I think it would make sense that if each ZPM was only designed to work off of a single contained region of subspace time then there would be no way, as far as Rodney knew for the ZPM to tap power from another new contained region of subspace time.
                              Still, I think that is rather suggestive that ZPM depletion is called "maximum entropy" in light of the fact that a ZPM is described to be "a miniature universe in a bottle" in "Trinity" and a "self-contained region of subspacetime" in "Rising," well as the fact that, in "McKay and Mrs. Miller," the threat was that the "entropy" produced by the ZPE tap could reach the "subspace layer" of the alternate reality, instantly destroying that reality.

                              Is any of this conclusive? Not a chance. On the other hand, we cannot get conclusive results, so the best we can do is speculate, and these statements are very suggestive.



                              Originally posted by Rise Of The Phoenix View Post
                              As I've pointed out above the Miller Space Time Bridge seems to be doing what Acturus did tapping energy from the vacuum of space that belongs to another universe, if tapping power from our own subspace time doesn't generate exotic matter particals then it should be safe, the only reason I can see TPTB not using the ST in another episode after Daedalus Variations is that it would give Earth too much power, I mean they've got the plasma beam weapons and other tech so to add a ZPM style power source would basically give us a bunch of Odysseys.
                              A. This does not give an in universe explanation for why they nevr attempted to duplicate the Subspace Tap they found in "The Daedalus Variations."

                              B. Just as I am assuming that the Subspace Tap in "The Daedalus Variations" taps ZPE from subspace and generates exotic particles as a result, you are assuming that it does not. The difference is that my assumption actually allows me to explain something.




                              Originally posted by Rise Of The Phoenix View Post
                              STs and ZPMs are still drawing energy from the same place in our Universe, from the Rising quote I posted above ZPMs just seem to be depleted of energy once they reach maximum entropy
                              How on Earth did you reach that conclusion from the quote that you provided. All the quote tells us is that a ZPM will eventually reach a state called "maximum entropy," at which point it dies. It tells us nothing of why a ZPM would reach maximum entropy, nor what maximum entropy actually means beyond the ZPM ceasing to function.


                              Originally posted by Rise Of The Phoenix View Post
                              if a ZPM is drawing energy from our universe's subspace then surely given that the Ancients weren't able to contain exotic matter particals in our space time then they wouldn't be able to contain them in the contained region of subspace time that a ZPM draws it's power from.
                              Except that, if the connection to the ZPM's contained region of subspace is similar to the Miller Spacetime Bridge, then they would have been able to contain the exotic particles in the ZPM's pocket universe.

                              As for why the connect would work that way? First, we know that a ZPM contains "a self-contained region of subspacetime," which McKay equates to "a universe in a bottle." If a connection between two full universes can be designed such that exotic particles cannot travel across the connect, there is no reason to think that the same could not be done with a pocket universe.
                              "From East Middle School. Suzumiya Haruhi. I have no interest in ordinary humans. If there are any aliens, time travelers, sliders, or espers here, come join me."
                              - The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya; Best Character Introduction Ever.

                              "And can we lose the ten thousand year old dead plants?!"
                              - Stargate: Atlantis (1x03) "Hide and Seek"

                              "Hammerheads do not load/unload units immediately – they must descend to ground level first. Initial experiments involving jump-jetting infantry into the Hammerhead’s cargo compartment met with unfortunate results."
                              - Command&Conquer 3: Kane's Wrath Hammerhead Unit Spotlight

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