Would the moon be affected by a "Phased cloaked" Earth?

[ckwongau]

In S10 episode "The Road not taken", When Sam was transported to an alternative Earth, she help save that Earth with the Melin Device.
It was like Phased cloaked the planet,but the Merlin device shift the planet into a another dimension.The Ori ship can't see or even touch the planet.
Merlin use the Merlin device to hide from the ascended being when he was making the anti-ascended being weapon.So in theory not even the Ascended being could detect Earth at the time.

We may have to Merlin device to claoked the Earth someday.
But here is the thing i can't figure out, if Earth is dimensionaly phased shifted .Then the Earth's huge gravity field also disappear from the solar system.
Even a few minute for the moon without Earth's gravity,Moon would lost the normal orbit ,and it would affect Earth for a long time,and worse the moon would float away and Earth would lost the moon ,and you could imagine the enviromental disaster that follow.

[VSS]

Huh. Well, I think you're right. Wherever the mass goes, the gravity goes. And even if the planet left some kind of "gravity signature" behind, it wouldn't really be cloaked then, would it?

[Andru10]

I think gravity transcends all dimensions. When people are phase shifted they can still walk normally, meaning that they are still atracted by Earth's gravity. Also, when the Ori ships were aproaching the planet and stoped to target Area 51 they had to be in Earth orbit (geosynchronus orbit, to be precise) to maintain the same position over Earth's surface, and when Earth disappeared not only did they maintain the same exact position but they also fired (and Lorne mentioned "looks like they think we're just cloaked") which means that the gravitational field created by the Earth was still there.
Besides, it is theorized that gravitons (the theoretical force-carrier particles of gravity) can travel to other paralel dimensions (if they exist) and this is a hypothetical explanation for why gravity is the weakest of the 4 forces.
So to answer your question: the Moon would not be affected by a phase shifted Earth.

[Crazy Tom]

Exactly. The Earth did not stop orbiting the sun, hence gravity is not afected by phasing.

[jollyrogue]

yeah, if gravity didn't travel through dimensions then there would be some sort of situation in other episodes, where Sam/Cam phased in the episode with the sodan and in the episode where sam is injured and they phase a shed or something. Also the bugs in that other episode.. Everyone would just float about if there was no gravity.

[VSS]

Gravity doesn't cross dimensions or we'd be finding gravity wells and bent light all over the place with no apparent massive bodies associated with it.

After all, scientists derive the location of objects from their associated gravity all the time- both indirectly from the effect of gravity on light and directly with the LIGO. Both of those techniques would be useless if masses we couldn't even see could affect them.

And, of course, if we could detect planets outside of our dimension using gravity, the cloak would be worthless- certainly more advanced beings could do it, too.

And the episodes with Sam and Cam wouldn't be affected, because in their dimension, they're on a planet, aren't they? Or do we know? That's an even weirder thing, IMHO.

[Andru10]

Gravity doesn't cross dimensions or we'd be finding gravity wells and bent light all over the place with no apparent massive bodies associated with it.

After all, scientists derive the location of objects from their associated gravity all the time- both indirectly from the effect of gravity on light and directly with the LIGO. Both of those techniques would be useless if masses we couldn't even see could affect them.

And, of course, if we could detect planets outside of our dimension using gravity, the cloak would be worthless- certainly more advanced beings could do it, too.

And the episodes with Sam and Cam wouldn't be affected, because in their dimension, they're on a planet, aren't they? Or do we know? That's an even weirder thing, IMHO.

Your argument is based on the fact that there are planets in other dimensions other than our own. If gravity didn't transcend other dimensions, how is it that the Moon still orbited the phase-shifted Earth, or the phase-shifted Earth orbited the Sun ?
We also know light travels to multiple dimensions, otherwise you wouldn't be able to see the world around you in the alternate dimension.
When Sam and Cam went to another dimension they weren't on another planet, they were on Earth. Merlin's device probably has some kind on counter measures in place to prevent people from falling through the floor when crossing in to an alternate dimension.

[VSS]

Your argument is based on the fact that there are planets in other dimensions other than our own. If gravity didn't transcend other dimensions, how is it that the Moon still orbited the phase-shifted Earth, or the phase-shifted Earth orbited the Sun ?
We also know light travels to multiple dimensions, otherwise you wouldn't be able to see the world around you in the alternate dimension.
When Sam and Cam went to another dimension they weren't on another planet, they were on Earth. Merlin's device probably has some kind on counter measures in place to prevent people from falling through the floor when crossing in to an alternate dimension.

Okay, I'm talking about real science in the real world- you're talking about a scifi show. While it's plausible to use real science to contradict the show, you can't use scifi science to predict real life.

So that highlighted sentence puzzles me. What happens in a scifi show can't be used as a scientific proof of whether or not gravity REALLY does cross dimensions.

And all it would take is one dimension with planets in it to distort our own. You're saying there are none- that ours is the one special case where there is mass and gravity? I doubt it.

Furthermore, phase-shifted Cam and Sam were on earth- just not the exact same one as everyone else. After all, these other dimensions are really space where the alternate realities/timelines take place, aren't they? Time is inextricably linked to space- that's why they call it the fourth dimension. So phase shifting could be nothing more than figuring out how to shift into an alternate reality that is very, very close to ours. With its own planets, gravity and everything else.

[Andru10]

Okay, I'm talking about real science in the real world- you're talking about a scifi show. While it's plausible to use real science to contradict the show, you can't use scifi science to predict real life.

So that highlighted sentence puzzles me. What happens in a scifi show can't be used as a scientific proof of whether or not gravity REALLY does cross dimensions.

And all it would take is one dimension with planets in it to distort our own. You're saying there are none- that ours is the one special case where there is mass and gravity? I doubt it.

Furthermore, phase-shifted Cam and Sam were on earth- just not the exact same one as everyone else. After all, these other dimensions are really space where the alternate realities/timelines take place, aren't they? Time is inextricably linked to space- that's why they call it the fourth dimension. So phase shifting could be nothing more than figuring out how to shift into an alternate reality that is very, very close to ours. With its own planets, gravity and everything else.

Of course I was talking about science fiction the question was about science fiction, you can't use a real life aproach here since there is currently no evidence to prove the existence of alternate dimensions (but it is theorized that gravitons, if they exist, can pass into other dimensions, if they exist) but there are theories which postulate their existance (like String Theory which suggests the existance of 11 dimensions).
Alternate realities/timelines/universes are paralel Universes which coexist with our (and which also, in real life have not been proven to exist but are postulated in some theories... such as the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics). Now, in the show, alternate dimensions are like the 3 spatial dimensions we exist in and since a hypothetical 2 dimensional being (sometimes called flatlander) wouldn't be able to perceive the 3rd spatial dimension, we as 3 dimensional beings can't perceive the other higher dimensions (that's why people who are out of phase pass through objects and are invisible). Alternate Universes are Universes (space-times) just like our own that have their own set of dimensions.

[VSS]

Of course I was talking about science fiction the question was about science fiction, you can't use a real life aproach here since there is currently no evidence to prove the existence of alternate dimensions (but it is theorized that gravitons, if they exist, can pass into other dimensions, if they exist) but there are theories which postulate their existance (like String Theory which suggests the existance of 11 dimensions).
Alternate realities/timelines/universes are paralel Universes which coexist with our (and which also, in real life have not been proven to exist but are postulated in some theories... such as the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics). Now, in the show, alternate dimensions are like the 3 spatial dimensions we exist in and since a hypothetical 2 dimensional being (sometimes called flatlander) wouldn't be able to perceive the 3rd spatial dimension, we as 3 dimensional beings can't perceive the other higher dimensions (that's why people who are out of phase pass through objects and are invisible). Alternate Universes are Universes (space-times) just like our own that have their own set of dimensions.

Well, the OP wasn't talking about what just existed in the show. He/she was pointing out the plot hole predicted by the real theories of mass and gravity. That's the whole point of this thread. So yeah, you can make up anything you want to happen in the Stargate universe, but that's not the issue at hand. At least not to me.

But I disagree about the alternate dimensions. They're formed by branch points off of our own- that's how the AU stories work and if you go back far enough, you get the singularity with no time and no dimensions.

I don't know how many dimensions there are, but string theory says eleven or so. When a timeline diverges from ours, it's going off in a different dimension- but at the branch point we're connected. That reality is four of our eleven and we are four of its eleven, and then we diverge. After that the reality has its own dimensions completely separate from ours- just like you said- but not in the beginning. All time, all dimensions intersect. It has to be that way to get back to the singularity.

Furthermore, in your flatlander example, the flatlander would still perceive three dimensional objects- but only as two-dimensional. Being out-of-phase means completely leaving the previous dimensions behind, because we don't perceive them at all.

[Andru10]

But I disagree about the alternate dimensions. They're formed by branch points off of our own- that's how the AU stories work and if you go back far enough, you get the singularity with no time and no dimensions.

I don't know how many dimensions there are, but string theory says eleven or so. When a timeline diverges from ours, it's going off in a different dimension- but at the branch point we're connected. That reality is four of our eleven and we are four of its eleven, and then we diverge. After that the reality has its own dimensions completely separate from ours- just like you said- but not in the beginning. All time, all dimensions intersect. It has to be that way to get back to the singularity.

Furthermore, in your flatlander example, the flatlander would still perceive three dimensional objects- but only as two-dimensional. Being out-of-phase means completely leaving the previous dimensions behind, because we don't perceive them at all.

I disagree with you. Alternate Universes which would exist in paralel with our own would be completely independent of us, that is, each Universe has it's own Big Bang, it's own begining. The many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics postulates that for every possibilty there is a paralel Universe. The branching out part is a way of showing that the paralel Universe was identical to our own until a certain point, but there is no physical branching, nothing to do with other dimensions whatsoever, no link between our Universe and the AU because that Universe had it's own begining and evolved independetly from our own. It's just that the conditions were so simillar that up until a point it was completely identical. Like our own Universe, each alternate Universe has a number of alternate dimensions which characterize it.
You're right, the flatlander would only be able to see 2 dimensional cross-sections of our 3 dimensional world, but an object in 3 dimensions doesn't have to pass through the 2 dimensional section in which the flatlander is, in which case the flatlander wouldn't be able to perceive the object at all.
By the way, there are many ways to view other dimensions... for example string theory says that the extra dimensions are insignificantly small and curled up which is why we don't perceive them... the theory says that when the expansion of our Universe started (fractions of a second after the Big Bang) only our 3 dimensions expanded. Another theory says that the 5th dimension, when crossed, sends you back in time, the 6th dimension sends you to paralel Universes etc. It's true that in this interpretation Universes are bonded together by this dimension but that doesn't mean that one Universe was created by the branching of another's dimensions.

Watch this video, it explains a lot about paralel Universes and alternate dimensions: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvgwR9ERCBo . (the movie interpretation of alternate dimensions doesn't apply to Stargate. In Stargate, the other dimensions are viewed as spatial dimensions, not conduits between time, universes etc)

[VSS]

All universes still arise from the singularity. That's why its called the singularity. Even the Many Worlds hypothesis recognizes that because it follows the flow of time from the very beginning, when the very first particle was created and was able to exist in a quantum state.

And in the stargate world, they're very clear about that. In fact, that was the main premise of Continuum. They didn't even go back to the start of the universe to explain the parallel universe- they just went back to 1929.

That video is pretty cool. Very well-explained. But he never says there was more than one singularity- just different versions of the Big Bang, which is certainly possible.

[Darynlxm]

Well, I cant say I know a whole lot regarding this subject, however what I think would happen is yes, to cloak the planet completely then you would need to hide the gravity field as well, which could pose a problem.

My thoughts regarding the episode is that it didnt interfere with the gravity field, and that would lead back to Lornes comment about thinking they were only cloaked. If the Ori couldnt detect any gravity at all they may have just left.

Anyways, I think this could be a good AU story for the future.
Lets say for arguments sake that while cloaking, Gravity itself was affected for a few seconds, before re-establishing itself. And now the Earth is facing a major problem due to the moon moving farther from orbit.

[Ouroboros]

Like someone pointed out the even bigger concern would be removing the suns gravity from the Earth. Would have kind of been a bittersweet victory if after successfully hiding from the Ori for a few days some scientists ran into the room to tell everyone that in the process they'd turned the entire planet into Voyager 3.

[Lord Excalibar]

In S10 episode "The Road not taken", When Sam was transported to an alternative Earth, she help save that Earth with the Melin Device.
It was like Phased cloaked the planet,but the Merlin device shift the planet into a another dimension.The Ori ship can't see or even touch the planet.
Merlin use the Merlin device to hide from the ascended being when he was making the anti-ascended being weapon.So in theory not even the Ascended being could detect Earth at the time.

We may have to Merlin device to claoked the Earth someday.
But here is the thing i can't figure out, if Earth is dimensionaly phased shifted .Then the Earth's huge gravity field also disappear from the solar system.
Even a few minute for the moon without Earth's gravity,Moon would lost the normal orbit ,and it would affect Earth for a long time,and worse the moon would float away and Earth would lost the moon ,and you could imagine the enviromental disaster that follow.

okay i can tell u now that if the earth was to phase shift the moon would have enough gravity to hold it in position for at least 1 day.