The Future of Ship Battles

[stargater1990]

okay, so currently we only have 1 ship that is capable of cloaking but technically all of our ships should be able to cloak since we have the asgard core and the asgard could cloak ships so we should be able to.

also, according to the episode "shades of grey" the asgard have personal cloaks that are very small and can be easily put of nuke missils. also since we have the asgard core we should be able to just walk up to the core call up the schematics and have dozens of them in seconds.

so, once we equip all of our ships with claoking generators, they would be able to sneak up to ships completely undetected. now, if we combine that with the cloaked nuke missils they would be able to destroy entire fleets single handedly. i mean all they would have to do is jump to a place where there are some enemy ships outside of their sensor range and then cloak and procede to the ships then launch the cloaked nuke missils and destroy all of the ships simultaneously.

it would be even better than using the asgard beam weapons because we would be 100% safe and it would be waaaaay faster. we could have the oddessy go to pegasus with an armory full of nukes and destroy the wraith slowly and stealthily without even raising their shields once!!

what do you think?

[Splitsecond]

Th wraith would very quickly start keep their shields up, would gather in large packs and would set up defense nets. Just look at how people reacted to the threat of subs and missiles when they were new.

[Empress Vajnraa]

Umm... the Wraith don't have shields. What you see is what you get... In fact I thought it was fairly common knowledge that they rely on their organic regenerative armor for protection.

ANYWAY, it sounds like a good idea but then again so did beaming nukes aboard their ships. It seems if they are pressed down hard by a new challenge they are quick to adapt.

They might find away to make their ships more resilient against the beams, they may find away to see through the cloak or jam that as well.

If it were THAT easy to beat the Wraith with only a handful of ships, the ancients would have won the war methinks.

[Gate Rider]

That would be kind of boring.

[stargater1990]

Umm... the Wraith don't have shields. What you see is what you get... In fact I thought it was fairly common knowledge that they rely on their organic regenerative armor for protection.

ANYWAY, it sounds like a good idea but then again so did beaming nukes aboard their ships. It seems if they are pressed down hard by a new challenge they are quick to adapt.

They might find away to make their ships more resilient against the beams, they may find away to see through the cloak or jam that as well.

If it were THAT easy to beat the Wraith with only a handful of ships, the ancients would have won the war methinks.

well first of all, the wraith really wont know how their ships are being destroyed because there wont be any witneses to tell the tale. we jump to their ships and cloak and then fire enough missils to destroy all of the ships simultaneously and they wont see it coming. they will just all explode so it will be hard for them to find a way to see through our cloaks if they dont know they need to.

and the wraith have never been able to see through cloaks and i dont see that changing anytime soon. i mean weve flown puddle jumpers right up their throats and they never saw us.

and it would not have worked for the ancients because no matter how many ships they destroyed, the wraith were growing more. thats not the case now, theres barely enough food for the wraith that are alive so i dont think they will be growing more hands to feed and without more wraith they cant build more ships b/c there will be no one to fly them. the circumstances are just different which is why this strategy will work. now when it wouldnt have worked back then.

[Splitsecond]

No survivors is a bad idea for a strategy, you want them to know that you can kill them without them seeing you so that they don't travel about as much in ships and don't go culling by ship any more. They will then have to use larger group of smaller ships to make sure you don't have enough missiles to kill them all. You then attack with more missles/ships. They get even larger groups of even smaller ships and they end up wasting all their resources on swarms of fighters.

Besides if lots of individual ships went missing, they would gather in larger groups and surround themselves with fighters.

[Bodmanbod]

Whatever happened to not being able to fire weapons while cloaked? I'm pretty sure that any episode involving cloaked ships shows them de-cloaking before firing...

Also do you have any idea how many nukes would be needed per hive ship? Most of the blast from the nuke would be directed into space rather than damaging the hive. that's why our weapons were so ineffective against hives before we got the asgard beam weapons...

Not that a cloak for deadalus class ships wouldnt be useful, just wouldnt work in the tactic you described..

[stargater1990]

No survivors is a bad idea for a strategy, you want them to know that you can kill them without them seeing you so that they don't travel about as much in ships and don't go culling by ship any more. They will then have to use larger group of smaller ships to make sure you don't have enough missiles to kill them all. You then attack with more missles/ships. They get even larger groups of even smaller ships and they end up wasting all their resources on swarms of fighters.

Besides if lots of individual ships went missing, they would gather in larger groups and surround themselves with fighters.

actually its an excellent strategy. this way they wont know how their ships are being destroyed and wont be able to find a way to defend against our strategy. they might not even know that their ships are being destroyed since their not communicating due to in-fighting.


and surrounding themselves with fighters wont do any good. theyd have to cover every square inch around the ship so that there is no gap for the missil to get through and they dont have enough soilders or ships to do that. plus they wont know to even surround their ships with fighters because they dont know that their being taken out by missils.

and we will have as many missils as we need. i mean they only have at most maybe 60 hives and even if they put aside their in-fighting to travel in groups, even if they traveled in groups of 20 we would still have plenty of missils. i mean theres more than enough space for 60 missils if we wanted to bring that many.

[stargater1990]

Whatever happened to not being able to fire weapons while cloaked? I'm pretty sure that any episode involving cloaked ships shows them de-cloaking before firing...

Also do you have any idea how many nukes would be needed per hive ship? Most of the blast from the nuke would be directed into space rather than damaging the hive. that's why our weapons were so ineffective against hives before we got the asgard beam weapons...

Not that a cloak for deadalus class ships wouldnt be useful, just wouldnt work in the tactic you described..

i see no reason why we cant fire missils while cloaked. i dont recall it ever being stated in the show that you cant fire while cloaked. they just always decloaked so that they would have a shield because once you fired an uncloaked missile you give away your position.

also, launching a missile while cloaked would be no dfferent than launching a fighter while cloaked and it would make absolutely no sense why you wouldnt be able to launch a fighter while cloaked. i mean in the last episode of atlantis, they launched a puddle jumper while the city was cloaked.


and as for nukes not being strong enough, we can easily enhance them with naquada to make them strong enough. origionally our missils were ineffective because they were being intercepted.


also, we could even aim the missils for the fighter bay, that way the nuke would be inside the ship when it blew and since the nukes delivered via beaming tech inside the ship destroyed the ships it should work.

[Empress Vajnraa]

Well, the cloaks only work so well, I'm sure the Wraith would be able to detect the source of any incoming missiles/fighters/whatever.

Also, I'm pretty sure they didn't see the whole nuke-beaming thing coming but they still adapted rather well to that.

[Bodmanbod]

i see no reason why we cant fire missils while cloaked. i dont recall it ever being stated in the show that you cant fire while cloaked. they just always decloaked so that they would have a shield because once you fired an uncloaked missile you give away your position.

also, launching a missile while cloaked would be no dfferent than launching a fighter while cloaked and it would make absolutely no sense why you wouldnt be able to launch a fighter while cloaked. i mean in the last episode of atlantis, they launched a puddle jumper while the city was cloaked.


and as for nukes not being strong enough, we can easily enhance them with naquada to make them strong enough. origionally our missils were ineffective because they were being intercepted.


also, we could even aim the missils for the fighter bay, that way the nuke would be inside the ship when it blew and since the nukes delivered via beaming tech inside the ship destroyed the ships it should work.

Firing at the dart bay doors is pointless if you are cloaked because if you're cloaked then the wraith don't know you're there and hence have no reason to launch their darts (They only open the doors to launch them you know, they don't just fly around with them open).


Assuming you could fire missiles while cloaked (even the ancients couldn't fire weapons while cloaked) they still aren't powerful enough, only 40-50% of the energy released in a nuclear explosion is the blast, the rest is forms of radiation. Factor in the laws of physics which dictates that the blast will go in the direction of least resistance (thats space seeing as it's a vacuum and all) means that the hives will only receive a very small portion of the missile's yield.

You mentioned increasing the strength of the nukes, however all you are really doing is creating more waste. why use a weapon in space that is simply very ineffective in space? every time you increased the yield of the nuke you'd only increase the damage done to the hive by a very small amount. Also i'm pretty sure the missiles are naquada enhanced already...

Anyway the point is you'd need several missiles to take out a hive. Most likely a LOT.

Furthermore the US shouldnt be building any nukes anyway what with them signing a treaty saying they'd actively cut down their nuclear arsenal... though thats a different discussion altogether...

Once you did this once the Hives would begin grouping together and the amount of missiles needed would be so large you couldn't fire them simultaneously meaning some hives would survive the initial barrage and pinpoint your location based on where the other hives were hit and when the missiles hit and fire blindly in that location and since you'd be cloaked and not shielded one or two hits and you'd be disabled.

Also your estimate of their ship numbers doesn't take into account cruisers...

[Splitsecond]

You would need at least one nuke per ship they had in a fleet, inc fighters. You would need to fire all of them at the same time. If you don't do this, the survivors will start shooting, even if they can't see you they'll start shooting randomly until they hit you, then they'll continue to hit you until you die. It is a waste of resources to hit them all, just cripple the lead ships and leg it, they won't know who or what it was and they'll tell everyone else to be careful. Their only option will be to use wasteful tactics, like a wall of fighters firing at random into space, to stop you from firing.

[Stewart5]

You would need at least one nuke per ship they had in a fleet, inc fighters. You would need to fire all of them at the same time. If you don't do this, the survivors will start shooting, even if they can't see you they'll start shooting randomly until they hit you, then they'll continue to hit you until you die. It is a waste of resources to hit them all, just cripple the lead ships and leg it, they won't know who or what it was and they'll tell everyone else to be careful. Their only option will be to use wasteful tactics, like a wall of fighters firing at random into space, to stop you from firing.

I say leave tactics to someone who knows what tactics really are, and no more mindless, fanboy "Cloaks and asgard beams will let us win!!!"
Tell that to the Phoenix

[Giantevilhead]

We don't know how effective the Asgard cloaks in "Shades of Grey" are. The people living on that planet were rather primitive and the Asgard would have no reason to give them the best stealth technology available to help them hunt animals.

They could use cloaked puddle jumpers to deliver nukes. They could have a puddle jumper fly into a Hive ship, drop off a cloaked nuke with a timer, and then fly away. We don't that Hives can't even survive a primitive Genii nuke detonated from the inside so they don't even need to use naquadah enhanced nukes.

[stargater1990]

Firing at the dart bay doors is pointless if you are cloaked because if you're cloaked then the wraith don't know you're there and hence have no reason to launch their darts (They only open the doors to launch them you know, they don't just fly around with them open).


Assuming you could fire missiles while cloaked (even the ancients couldn't fire weapons while cloaked) they still aren't powerful enough, only 40-50% of the energy released in a nuclear explosion is the blast, the rest is forms of radiation. Factor in the laws of physics which dictates that the blast will go in the direction of least resistance (thats space seeing as it's a vacuum and all) means that the hives will only receive a very small portion of the missile's yield.

You mentioned increasing the strength of the nukes, however all you are really doing is creating more waste. why use a weapon in space that is simply very ineffective in space? every time you increased the yield of the nuke you'd only increase the damage done to the hive by a very small amount. Also i'm pretty sure the missiles are naquada enhanced already...

Anyway the point is you'd need several missiles to take out a hive. Most likely a LOT.

Furthermore the US shouldnt be building any nukes anyway what with them signing a treaty saying they'd actively cut down their nuclear arsenal... though thats a different discussion altogether...

Once you did this once the Hives would begin grouping together and the amount of missiles needed would be so large you couldn't fire them simultaneously meaning some hives would survive the initial barrage and pinpoint your location based on where the other hives were hit and when the missiles hit and fire blindly in that location and since you'd be cloaked and not shielded one or two hits and you'd be disabled.

Also your estimate of their ship numbers doesn't take into account cruisers...

a nuke will be more than effective at destroying a hive. a hive is like 5 times bigger than a hatak vessel and sam said that a naquada enhanced nuke could destroy one in space so all it would take is 1 nuke made 5 times stronger than the one carter was going to use to destroy a hatak.


even if we had to use 5 nukes per hive it really wouldnt be a problem. we have 2 fighter bays and proboly like 5 or 6 missil armorys, after all it is a military vessel so storing a lot of missiles wont be a problem.


also, if they were to start to travel in groups that would be very good for us because if you remember in the last man, when 1 hive blew up the blast wave took out the other 2 hives. so lets say theres a group of 12 hives, we just target a couple of the ones in the middle of the group and the rest are taken out.

furthermore, we wont be any where close to he hives when their hit so even if for some reason one survives, it wouldnt be able to fire at us.