The Ancients. Who are they really???

[Major Mike David]

"Are our loving Ancients of Stargate described the way they should be?"

The theme question(s) of the essay I am writing is "Ancients. Who and what are the Ancients really in the Stargate Universe? What are their true technological advancement abilities? What is their true potential?"

In my essay I will answer the first question, which will support and feed off of the basis of my second question, third, and so on and why I wrote the essay. The theme question(s) that I have asked everyone and wondered myself, will be where I point out the flaws that the Writers of Stargates have made on the Ancients. As well as their limitations that has been placed on them by some of the fans and the Writers of MGM. I know for sure that this essay is going to spark a huge percentage of debate either outside of this Stargate Forum or in the forum/thread itself I'm sure. If it doesn't, oh well. But my point is to reveal the flaws and limitations we have placed upon the Ancients. I will defend my position by explaining why and what mistakes the Writers of MGM have made. I will then clarify what limitations have been placed on the Ancients who are, as far as we know of and have been told by the Stargate Writers themselves, that the Ancients are one of the most powerful races to have ever existed in the Universe and to have gotten to a state of power where they could evolve, or as Stargate explains it "ascended" to a higher plane of existence.

I know for sure, you will be quite edged by some of the revelations I have written in my essay if you are not familiar with the Ancients or the mistakes that have been made upon them. Do not mistake me my friends that I do not like the Ancients. Far from it, I LOVE the Ancients. They are my favorite race in the Stargate Universe with the Wraith and Tau'ri falling in 2nd & 3rd place behind. And to love a race such as the Ancients, you must question them and critique what the writers of Stargates have done or others as of matter of fact in order to try to better fuel our understanding of the Ancients.

I will touch upon the Ancients history as well as their technology. Mainly their technology however and what the Ancient’s true potential is (which is the main reason why I am writing/wrote this essay).

The History I am going to talk about is:

• The War with the Wraith which will be subdivided between the seeding of human life in the Pegasus galaxy just as it was seeded in the Milky Way and the elimination of the Wraith.

• The exodus out of the Ori galaxy and the search for a new home.

The “Who and What” the Ancients are that I will talk about are:

• Where the Ancients came from and who they are as a people and how the rose to power.

• The difference between societies and nature of the Ori, Alterans, and Lantians.

• The Ancients Physiology and its effects and how their growth evolved through time.

• Their place in the Universe as Universal Powers.

• Their might and roots in other alien societies.

• How they grew as a race to fully achieve ascension.

The points on Technology and the Ancients true potential I will talk about are:

• The Drone Weapons

• The Ancients Stellar Engineering

• The Stargates

• Megastructures

• Cities & Cityships

• Dakara Super Weapon

• Ancient Power sources such as the ZPMs & Arcturus

• Ancient Ships

• What technologies the Ancients should have been also revealed using in the series.

• Out a phase technology (such as cloak devices)

• Janus’s Time Machine.

• Shield Technology

• The Ascender Resequencer

• And much, much more.

• And of course, the answer to the limitations placed on the Ancients.

Those are the topics I will discuss in this thread. I will release Parts of the Essay steadily, to allow Gaters to read through thoroughly and of course debate on the subject. I will not debate much at first until I have posted the entire essay so that Gaters may see what I have written and stated. I will defend my position as best as possible.

Also, I’d like to strongly make clear that I will not tolerate inappropriate criticism of other people for their opinions on this debate of this essay. If you do that, don’t even voice yourself here. Let’s keep this thread clean with debates, not hostilities because of someone else’s opposing statement that angered or frustrated an individual. I won’t tolerate other’s calling people names just because you or someone else is losing to a healthy debate and you can’t defend your position well enough. But if the other debater is agitating the other person on purpose, get off this thread.
It’s almost like the famous quote states:

“He who angers you conquers you.” – By Elizabeth Kenny
Basically meaning, if you get angry during a debate and you reveal it by calling a person a name because you’re frustrated, you’ve lost. So please, keep this thread ladies and gentlemen clean. Thanks!

[Ltcolshepjumper]

"Are our loving Ancients of Stargate described the way they should be?"

The theme question(s) of the essay I am writing is "Ancients. Who and what are the Ancients really in the Stargate Universe? What are their true technological advancement abilities? What is their true potential?"

In my essay I will answer the first question, which will support and feed off of the basis of my second question, third, and so on and why I wrote the essay. The theme question(s) that I have asked everyone and wondered myself, will be where I point out the flaws that the Writers of Stargates have made on the Ancients. As well as their limitations that has been placed on them by some of the fans and the Writers of MGM. I know for sure that this essay is going to spark a huge percentage of debate either outside of this Stargate Forum or in the forum/thread itself I'm sure. If it doesn't, oh well. But my point is to reveal the flaws and limitations we have placed upon the Ancients. I will defend my position by explaining why and what mistakes the Writers of MGM have made. I will then clarify what limitations have been placed on the Ancients who are, as far as we know of and have been told by the Stargate Writers themselves, that the Ancients are one of the most powerful races to have ever existed in the Universe and to have gotten to a state of power where they could evolve, or as Stargate explains it "ascended" to a higher plane of existence.

I know for sure, you will be quite edged by some of the revelations I have written in my essay if you are not familiar with the Ancients or the mistakes that have been made upon them. Do not mistake me my friends that I do not like the Ancients. Far from it, I LOVE the Ancients. They are my favorite race in the Stargate Universe with the Wraith and Tau'ri falling in 2nd & 3rd place behind. And to love a race such as the Ancients, you must question them and critique what the writers of Stargates have done or others as of matter of fact in order to try to better fuel our understanding of the Ancients.

I will touch upon the Ancients history as well as their technology. Mainly their technology however and what the Ancient’s true potential is (which is the main reason why I am writing/wrote this essay).

The History I am going to talk about is: [LIST]The War with the Wraith which will be subdivided between the seeding of human life in the Pegasus galaxy just it was seeded in the Milky Way and the elimination of the Wraith.

• The exodus out of the Ori galaxy and the search for a new home.

The “Who and What” the Ancients are that I will talk about are:

• Where the Ancients came from and who they are as a people and how the rose to power.

• The difference between societies and nature of the Ori, Alterans, and Lantians.

• The Ancients Physiology and its effects and how their growth evolved through time.

• Their place in the Universe as Universal Powers.

• Their might and roots in other alien societies.

• How they grew as a race to fully achieve ascension.

The points on Technology and the Ancients true potential I will talk about are:

• The Drone Weapons

• The Ancients Stellar Engineering

• The Stargates

• Megastructures

• Cities & Cityships

• Dakara Super Weapon

• Ancient Power sources such as the ZPMs & Arcturus

• Ancient Ships

• What technologies the Ancients should have been also revealed using in the series.

• Out a phase technology (such as cloak devices)

• Janus’s Time Machine.

• Shield Technology

• The Ascender Resequencer

• And much, much more.

• And of course, the answer to the limitations placed on the Ancients.

Those are the topics I will discuss in this thread. I will release Parts of the Essay steadily, to allow Gaters to read through thoroughly and of course debate on the subject. I will not debate much at first until I have posted the entire essay so that Gaters may see what I have written and stated. I will defend my position as best as possible.

Also, I’d like to strongly make clear that I will not tolerate inappropriate criticism of other people for their opinions on this debate of this essay. If you do that, don’t even voice yourself here. Let’s keep this thread clean with debates, not hostilities because of someone else’s opposing statement that angered or frustrated an individual. I won’t tolerate other’s calling people names just because you or someone else is losing to a healthy debate and you can’t defend your position well enough. But if the other debater is agitating the other person on purpose, get off this thread.
It’s almost like the famous quote states:

“He who angers you conquers you.” – By Elizabeth Kenny
Basically meaning, if you get angry during a debate and you reveal it by calling a person a name because you’re frustrated, you’ve lost. So please, keep this thread ladies and gentlemen clean. Thanks!

Can't wait to see it. Is this a persuasive, argumentative, or expository essay?

[Major Mike David]

PART I

*The theme question(s) of this essay is "Ancients. Who and what are the Ancients really in the Stargate Universe? What are their true technological advancement abilities? What is their true potential?"

Spoiler:

It cannot be helped that writers who established, publish, or are developing science fiction stories make mistakes and/or have flaws in their stories. I for sure know that as a fact about being a writer. I neither declare myself as a self-proclaimed writer who writes for a living, for I am not at that point yet, nor am I a professional writer at the least. Though I am still as student of creating stories and of the like, I still am quite capable of catching errors and flaws in any type of story. It’s simply my nature.

The flaws and errors that I spotted in the Stargate Universe pertaining to the Ancients are rather irritating to me in my opinion. First, let us begin with the flaws in having to do with the Ancient’s history. When I was first introduced to Stargate, I was so excited. The episode that first mentioned the Ancients and the Great Alliance of Four Races, “The Torment of Tantalus” season 1 episode 11, really excited me. I am clearly a history junky. When more and more coverage was revealed on the Ancients of the Stargate Universe, it soon became the center spotlight of my attention.

As the years rolled around and SG-1 began to come to its end, a new series, Stargate Atlantis began to air. This is where I prepared myself to see what Ancients were really made of and what they were capable of doing when they had once lived. Much of my excitement was short lived. However, my love the Ancients was still retained. As the writers of Atlantis and SG-1 established a very rich and intellectual plot history of the Ancients, as well as their technology and society, soon bothered me. Todd explained that the arrogant mistakes made by the Lantians by going too far into Wraith territory were soon destroyed, though not only being killed, but also lost Zero Point Modules (ZPMs) to the Wraith, allowing them to fuel their war machine even more. What struck me though as a critical flaw of arrogance made by the Lantians was actually a prejudgment opinion made upon the Wraith in the war on what their true capabilities were at assaulting the Ancients and harnessing their power sources such as the ZPMs. The writer or writers of the Ancient history seriously failed to explain throughout the entire series and in the episodes that followed suit, was how, in all the Ancients/Lantians glory, technological superiority, and military might were not able to stop the Wraith or why the Ancients did not revert to a last resort option of destruction against the Wraith. Why? Couldn’t it have been possible to have simply used the Dakara Super Weapon that was in the Pegasus galaxy to wipe out the Wraith?

The writer’s plainly state, even the characters in the episodes, that the Ancients also seeded life in Pegasus just as they did in the Milky Way. In order to accomplish such a feat, it would have required the use of a Darkaran Super Weapon that was established in the Milky Way. Unless! Unless the Lantians that resided in the Pegasus Galaxy seeded human life in the galaxy in a different manner than that of the Ancients in the Milky Way that had activated the Dakara Weapon to seed life. If so, then how? That is one key error that I have noticed throughout the series.

So it comes down directly to my point on the Wraith being defeated by the Lantians. If a Dakara Weapon had been erected in the Pegasus galaxy, it could either seed life or eliminate life. There also however remains the slight chance that the Biological Weapon could have been dismantled or destroyed after it had served its purpose by seeding humans and possibly other sentient life as well. Yet, if the weapon had remained, why didn’t the Lantians activate the weapon as a last resort to either:

A) Biologically severing the lives of all the humans in the galaxy, effectively starving the Wraith off.
OR
B) Biologically severing the lives of all Wraith and Iratus bugs in the galaxy.

The writers of Stargate would have by now a long time ago, explained why the Ancients did not use the weapon. I leave this bit of history up to you to answer or to explain. I myself on the other hand will establish a more alternative way of explaining why in mine and McCoy’s Fleet the cause for the Lantians failure to destroy the Wraith.

Moving on to the other pieces of the Ancient history, I will explain about whom and what the Ancients are in Part II of the essay.

[Major Mike David]

Can't wait to see it. Is this a persuasive, argumentative, or expository essay?

I sort of see it as all three IMO. Because I'm exposing the mistakes and of course flaws of the Writers that created the Ancients. While at the same time persuading you that the Alterans were different vs the Lantians.

And I will argue my point, since I know that there are many who agree with me that the Writers of Stargate have seriously screwed up on alot of details.

[Ltcolshepjumper]

The frustrating thing is that we really know very little about the Ancients as a whole. We know almost nothing about the Alterans, and we only know 100 years out of 5-7 million years of Lantean history. There is also the fact that the Ancients, obviously in the mold of the Roman empire, do not possess a fleshed out culture. It's true that the writers have screwed up on a lot of details, but it's equally true that there are very few details to analyze.

[Crazy Tom]

Good thread MMD, very usefull espeialy to myself and the project I'm workling on.

We have to keep in mind that the Lantieans were but a minor percentage of the entire Alteran species (NOT RACE!), the majority of which perished in the several million years of the plague. Dabniel states that they left the MW 10-5 million years ago, but Ayana in only 3 million years old, so unless they are effectively immortal, I'm assuming he was basing this assumprion on the time the plaue broke out.

Now, the Alterans were clearly a very acompanied SPECIES, but a lot of that was lost during the plague.

[Major Mike David]

The frustrating thing is that we really know very little about the Ancients as a whole. We know almost nothing about the Alterans, and we only know 100 years out of 5-7 million years of Lantean history. There is also the fact that the Ancients, obviously in the mold of the Roman empire, do not possess a fleshed out culture. It's true that the writers have screwed up on a lot of details, but it's equally true that there are very few details to analyze.

That my friend is quite true. And I will make a point about that in the coming parts here pretty soon. I know for sure that the Writers have deliberately given us a few chunks of the Ancients history. But some of the history that they gave us has its flaws. Which is what I mean. I argue that very point in PART I with the war against the Wraith.

As FAR as we know, the Ancients probablly do have a fleshed out history, just possibly hidden from our eyes for the time being. It's quite possible that the Ancient's only wish us to see certain things that they want us to see, which I will bring up about in the later parts of my essay. It'll be rather interesting I think when I give my theory.

I know for a fact though that Stargate writers will reveal to us more about the Ancients in the coming episodes and new series.

[Major Mike David]

Good thread MMD, very usefull espeialy to myself and the project I'm workling on.

We have to keep in mind that the Lantieans were but a minor percentage of the entire Alteran species (NOT RACE!), the majority of which perished in the several million years of the plague. Dabniel states that they left the MW 10-5 million years ago, but Ayana in only 3 million years old, so unless they are effectively immortal, I'm assuming he was basing this assumprion on the time the plaue broke out.

Now, the Alterans were clearly a very acompanied SPECIES, but a lot of that was lost during the plague.

I mentioned to one fellow Gater the Ancient society's complexity and it's different states of being divided between the Ori, Alterans, & Lantians and how they were different.

You will see my point quite clearly in the coming Parts Tom.

[Major Mike David]

Ladies and gentlemen, I will be back in 2 or 3 hours and will post the PART II of the essay. Thanks.

By all means, please continue asking questions or debate. I will get to them as fast as I possibly can.

[Crazy Tom]

I mentioned to one fellow Gater the Ancient society's complexity and it's different states of being divided between the Ori, Alterans, & Lantians and how they were different.

You will see my point quite clearly in the coming Parts Tom.

BUt htose splits happened over millions of years, it tok 50 million years for the Alterans to be cnsumed by the plague and leave only the fonders of teh Lantians.

From what we can tell of human history, splits hapening in thousands of years, the Alterans were incredibly cnervative in their views and very slow to change.

I'd also like to take this oportunity to enquire as to what kind of doohickeys they used as toilets. Why couldn't MGM be mroe like Whendon? WHY?!!

[Lt. Col. Mcoy]

Good start. Howver, I would like to point out something:

In "Rising", the hologram map gives us a very key piece of information regarding the seeding of life in Pegasus; it took a very long time.

The map show planets slowly turning "blue". Actually, there are two "blue" colors; a dark one, and a light one. I will assume that the light blue planets are directly Lantian, and the dark blues ones are human. (based on the fact that the Lantian system is itself light blue)

The fact that the planets turned slowly, and individually in most cases, provides a strong argument for the theory that the Lantians did not in fact use a Daraka-like device. In fact, the exceptions to this individual seeding are in themselves an argument; that is, the planets which are seeded simultaneously are always quite close. This lends me to believe that the Lantians seeded the planets at the same time that they dropped Stargates on them.

To restate, I must conclude that the Lantian seeding of life occurred at the same time as their placement of the Stargates, and thus there was no need for (or indeed use for, due to the fact that the Stargates weren't even placed yet) a Dakara-style device.

[Halzman]

While I agree that the ancients seeded life in Pegasus the 'old fashioned way' (visiting a planet, setting up a colony of sorts, procreating from there) I don't think that they set up stargates as they went along.

If Stargate Universe is any clue, then, at least I, assume that the Destiny goes to a galaxy, creates a stargate template for that galaxy, and probes the various planets for human habitable worlds. From there a stargate is placed, and once the galaxy is completed with a stargate network, the destiny moves on to the next galaxy (presumably either the closest, or via use of sensors/scanners, the most human habitable (ie: greater concentration of human habitable planets).

We are given a clue to the foundation of the ancients in an SG-1 episode, were they visit a place called 'Keb'. Daniel stated that teachings at the temple were the foundations of Buddhist teachings. I believe Morgan LaFey laid out a pretty solid foundation: Prudence, Charity, Kindness, Wisdom, and Faith.

I feel that the ancients constantly struggle with philosophical issues. The easiest way to explain it is: Does the end justify the means.

The Alterans struggled with this in there original galaxy. They felt they were more right then the Ori, based on the fact that they beleive in free will. However, they were not willing to use the Ark of Truth in order to end the 'war' before it escalated to the point that it did. We, however, had no problem using it. We did recognize the philosophical issues with using the Ark, but to us, the end justified the means.

However, in the Milky Way, during the plague, the Ancients had no problem with destroying all (human) life in the galaxy, and then recreate it. The difference between the Milky Way and the Ori galaxy was that the Milky Way already had millions of people dieing (presumably), whereas the Ori galaxy would of had potentially millions of people 'enslaved'. SG-1 chose to act because those potentials were no longer potentials.

In Pegasus, the Ancients were confronted with the Wraith. Here they decided to fight a war, but one which they were over-reliant on there advanced warships (when considering what the ancients beleifs are, I wont hold it against them for not being the most 'tactical/strategic' of warriors) and technology. Janus comes up with a device that can stop the wraith dead in there tracks - but they are not willing to sacrifice potential millions of lives, due to the stargates blowing up - however, 10,000 years later, the entire galaxy is herd for the wraith. THe wraith queen in 'Rising' stated that the planets haven't been populated by millions+ for 10,000 years.

To sum this up, I believe the Joker said it best in 'The Dark Knight'

"To them, your just a freak, like me. They need you right now, but when they don't, they'll cast you out - like a leopard. You see, there morals, there code, its a bad joke... dropped at the first sign of trouble. There only as good as the world allows them to be. I'll show you, when the chips are down, these 'civilized' people, they'll eat each other."

In every case, the Ancients have repeatedly chose to run away and hide, in order to preserve themselves - rather then stand up to the threat and deal with it quickly. But to do so, would contradict there beliefs, but would in turn, over the long run, save countless lives, with the short term expense of many lives.

The Attero device could of actually been implemented very successfully, despite its 'glitch'. Had the Atlantean Council been more willing and open (particularly to Morris, who contradicted himself and the ancients beliefs by taking human form and building the sangraal - due to a 'threat of such size') they could of organized teams to forewarn inhabited or known planets - to minimize any accidental gate dials. There are of coarse, probably countless gates in a galaxy, so accidents will happen. However, by coordinating this with warships, the Ancients could of quickly and efficiently eliminated the wraith threat once and for all, which would in turn minimize the time the Attero device would need to remain active, and therefore the amount of gate overloads on the unknown gates.

Life and being alive contradict the very nature of life. Life, at the basic level, is about survival. What do you need to survive: food, water, shelter. The nature of life however, reflect various stages: birth, growth, maturity, death. In one aspect we are trying to survive to live on, and on the other we are just passing through a process that has a beginning and an end.

Whats to say that the ancients aren't both right and wrong, just what you would define as right and wrong changes from the situation. I mean, when you examine how the universe functions, that pretty much describes the process. You have a void filled with billions of galaxies, which in turn have billions of stars, which in turn have planets revolving around it. Each system is a perfectly balanced rotation dance, bound only by magnetic and gravitational forces. If one system affects another system, it begins to affect an even larger portion of that system. Either balance or destruction can occur. This is the principle of fair - things happening by chance (also brought up in The Dark Knight).

Even on a human conscious level, we only have so much 'real' control. Things happen around us by chance. The only real power we have then is how we react to things. We can either react to things emotionally, which is a perspective built on our own view of the world shaped by our experiences, or we can react logically, which is a perspective built on the laws of the universe (science). This isn't to say that we should ignore our emotions, and ignore how we feel. But at the same time, we need to view the logical perspective of the situation. Why are things happening the way they are, and why we feel things are happening the way they are.

On a universal level, there is also very little control. The universe, however, is dependant on its inhabitants. If a planet fails, then it affects a galaxy. If that galaxy fails, then it affects surrounding galaxies, which disrupts the universe. In a way, the universe as a system represents the logical aspect, and the human consciousness represents the emotional aspect. Only by the two working equally with each other, can both live. This leads me to the Ancients law of non-interferance. In one case, on SG-1, the fate of the entire galaxy was at risk by Anubis (he planned to use the Dakara device). However, the Ancients, collectively, felt that the outcome of one galaxy was not enough to incite interference. Perhaps they knew that one galaxy was not enough to create a huge 'ripple' in the universe system. Morris however, felt that the Ori threat was large enough to incite interference.

I would also like to bring up a situation during 'First Strike'. Sheppard and Ellis are talking and Ellis says, "Because of us, Earth wont have to deal with an armada of replicator ships, so whatever happens here, we did the right thing". This was, of coarse, referring to the Apollo, commanded by Ellis, launching a preemptive strike against the replicator home world. True, by destroying the armada of ships, they did prevent Earth from having to deal with them, but they induced an attack upon Atlantis, which almost ended badly. What if Weir had authority to call off the attack? Atlantis may have remained safe, but Earth would of been targeted. This in turn could effect Atlantis's supplies, therefore making them more vulnerable to attack. So the lives of several hundred expedition members or Earth and Atlantis...

My 2 cents

[thekillman]

maybe they colonized pegasus because of it?the gateseeder and destiny had come there, and the ancients got in and used it?

but there's one thing you cant deny. the lanteans are stupid. first, an ancient ship shouldnt need hundreds of crewmembers. turn an aurora into a drone carrier with multiple launchpads, and you can kill hives en masse. dont even need someone in the chair. its too easy.

[Halzman]

maybe they colonized pegasus because of it?the gateseeder and destiny had come there, and the ancients got in and used it?

but there's one thing you cant deny. the lanteans are stupid. first, an ancient ship shouldnt need hundreds of crewmembers. turn an aurora into a drone carrier with multiple launchpads, and you can kill hives en masse. dont even need someone in the chair. its too easy.

Thats pretty much what I'm saying. If destiny chose pegasus because it was the closest, most habitable, its fair enough to say that the ancinets moved on to pegasus for the same reason.


Modern Aircraft Carriers have a crew compliment of 3-4 thousand, even when most of the systems are computer guided/controlled. And this is a ship thats 1/3rd the size of an Aurora. If anything, having a crew with several hundred people isn't bad. Both ships only require a certain amount of people to control, but in order to be fully operation, you need a full crew (damage control is a huge one)

[immhotep]

MMD i love this topic. It is something that i have argued about for a significant period of time. Your points about the distinctions between the MW, Ori and Pegasus galaxy ancients are very correct. There are flaws and differences that cannot be explained simply by movement and time. This is not a philosophical point, but the ancients are at a level where thier technology can transcend the moral laws of ends justify the means. Their ends are beyond the means of those they seeded life too, but thier means are also capable of trouncing the ends to start with. Lets take our most recent example, the Attero device and explain how this could have worked with complete safety. The ancients are capable of locking stargates, shutting them off from the gate system of pegusus entirely. They did this for 10,000 years. We have the technology to upload programs, macros, viruses and the like to entire gate systems. They could have forwarded a lockout command to the gate system for an unspecific period of time (in times of emergency on earth, usual transport methods are suspended...) switched the attero device on and then waited for the wraith to die out. Yes there might be a small loss of people, but no more than 10,000 years of culling. The wraith would have been dealt with entirely with very little issue.

This is my first ppost in this thread, for the time being but i will definitely be keeping my eye on it.