Oh noes! Human experiments!

[FallenAngelII]

What's up with the "No human experiments!" policy in SGverse? It's like you're all of a sudden a super villain if you experiment on humans.

So... what is it about it that's so bad, anyway? We humans experiment on animals and other humans all the time, and that's just to develop new make up and other BS stuff that aren't necessities.

What did Loki do that was so horrible? He kidnapped people, replaced them with clones of themselves, did some mumbo jumbo experiments on their DNA or whatever and then returned them fully functional and whatnot.

Sure, they now have the memory of an abduction, but it's not like they were killed or something.

And why have the Asgard never thought of simply asking for people let them experiment on them?

Goa'uld: Bow down to me! Kree ("Yoo-hoo!")!
Random human #1: Oh noes!
Loki: Come with me! You'll be free from the Goa'uld and all you have to do is get poked and prodded once in a while.
Random human #1: Yay!

Wraith: Feast on their life force!
Random human #2: Oh noes!
Lost Tribe Asgard: Come with me! You'll be free from the Wraith and all you have to do is get poked and prodded once in a while.
Random human #2: Yay!

But logic has never really been a strong point with the PTB, I guess.

[NIKIN]

I see what you mean, afterall it's not like the experiments Loki were doing actually harmed the humans, it was more study than experimentation. Also didnt thor say that research was a dead end? I guess he was wrong.

Didn't the asgard in this episode say they had almost completed the work anyway? As long as the tests weren't harmful I wouldnt mind being experimented on by them to save their entire race

[Wrath Of Odin]

What's up with the "No human experiments!" policy in SGverse? It's like you're all of a sudden a super villain if you experiment on humans.

So... what is it about it that's so bad, anyway? We humans experiment on animals and other humans all the time, and that's just to develop new make up and other BS stuff that aren't necessities.

What did Loki do that was so horrible? He kidnapped people, replaced them with clones of themselves, did some mumbo jumbo experiments on their DNA or whatever and then returned them fully functional and whatnot.

Sure, they now have the memory of an abduction, but it's not like they were killed or something.

And why have the Asgard never thought of simply asking for people let them experiment on them?

Goa'uld: Bow down to me! Kree ("Yoo-hoo!")!
Random human #1: Oh noes!
Loki: Come with me! You'll be free from the Goa'uld and all you have to do is get poked and prodded once in a while.
Random human #1: Yay!

Wraith: Feast on their life force!
Random human #2: Oh noes!
Lost Tribe Asgard: Come with me! You'll be free from the Wraith and all you have to do is get poked and prodded once in a while.
Random human #2: Yay!

But logic has never really been a strong point with the PTB, I guess.

I agree wholeheartedly, I think Thor was more pissed with Loki for defying the Asgard high council as opposed to actually being genuinely concerned for a few humans who were subjects of his experiments with very little ill effects. But ultimately I suppose they PTB want to draw the line between good and bad somewhere and this is where they have decided to draw it, in thick black and white as opposed to the shades of grey where it really belongs. I mean there the last of their race, who ultimately did save earth on numerous occassions. I am not splitting hairs they are the same race, they are capable of that unflappable kindness we saw from Thor and the other Asgard. I just found the whole Asgard being *******s thing and actually fighting against the Travellers and our heroes to be in bad taste, the Asgard are not morons, they want to live to go out into the galaxy and live not get blown into smithereens.

[kymeric]

Experimenting on Wraith is ok, experiemnting on Humans is not. Aliens dont count.

[Xaeden]

From what little we know about Loki, he doomed untold clones to death. Their consciousnesses were the same as their original counterparts and as such they had a right to live. Yet Loki admitted that their faiths were all the same. How he did it is unknown - He could've put them down quickly after doing the switch or he could've let them die on their own with the knowledge of what was happening to them. Either way, they didn't deserve that and it is equally as wrong as dooming the original person to death if not more so.

But, we don't know if that was the extent of what he did or how far these other Asgard went. Loki might've tried not to go so far as to harm his subjects only because he didn't want to draw attention to what he was doing. Where as these Asgard might've used their free reign to do whatever they pleased and the reason they got results may not just have been because they had more time, but because they did everything and anything to their Human subjects. Also, it's possible that Loki had the technology to get the information he thought he needed without killing the subject where as these Asgard had to use much more primitive means which did actual damage to the Humans they were experimenting on. At this point, we don't know, but the way they described what they did, I get the impression that no cost is too high for them.

[FallenAngelII]

I just found the whole Asgard being *******s thing and actually fighting against the Travellers and our heroes to be in bad taste, the Asgard are not morons, they want to live to go out into the galaxy and live not get blown into smithereens.
Yeah, what the hell was up with that? What did those 2 Asgard cruiser thingies do, anyway? They should've known they were overpowered. They'd taken the key with them, why bother fighting?

[Xaeden]

Yeah, what the hell was up with that? What did those 2 Asgard cruiser thingies do, anyway? They should've known they were overpowered. They'd taken the key with them, why bother fighting?

The key is pointless. It just stops someone from manually shutting the place down, it does not stop someone from shutting it down it by blowing the place up. Also, they weren't necessarily outgunned. Damage to shields has the possibility of disabling key systems that would've allowed them to finish the Traveler ship off if they were lucky or they might've been able to take it out if they stayed all in and out maneuvered the other ship. They might've taken the destruction of the first ship as a fluke since it got caught in close quarters with the Traveler's ship, but then after the second was destoyed the third got the hint and didn't bother returning.

[Wayston]

1) taking away the key was not pointless; this was done before any ship showed up and was simply a smart precaution (sort of like not leaving any ATA gene ancient devices powerd up for use by non ATA gene carriers); in any case meredith and daniel were (supposed to be in) lock up when this decision was taken and would have been left behind so a rescue attempt for the humans (most likely aim of any ship showing up) would mean they would have to put boots on the ground and search the facility and only then destroy it (not having a key lying around to deactivate it easily);

any delay was a good delay since the fleeing asgard would want to postpone the reactivation of wraith hyperdrives for as long as possible; in fact every second extra time would be worth gold to them while making their escape in what appear to be very shabby vehicles

2) you don't know if prodding and poking was the extent of the experiments; clearly they broke off the main asgard faction for a very good reason, perhaps they were even worse than the asgard maverik scientists who stayed behind?

it has already been established that the stargate universe morals allow for fishy stuff to happen to humans as long as it is a win win situation (i.e. the tok'ra symbionts for dying humans) so there must have been something more going on than a simple medical examination

[Pandora's_Box]

Oh, FAII. How I've missed you around these parts!

In answer to your original post, if we (humanity in the SG-verse) were suddenly accepting of human experimentation, then we'd be down one horse from which to sit upon and scoff at the lowly unwashed masses.

Then again, it's one thing to experiment upon animals for the sake of saving the human race (please note that I am referring to experimentation for medicines and whatnot, not cosmetics which is highly illegal now anyway) and quite another to experiment on humans for the sake of...what exactly? Galactic and universal domination?

[Xaeden]

1) taking away the key was not pointless; this was done before any ship showed up and was simply a smart precaution (sort of like not leaving any ATA gene ancient devices powerd up for use by non ATA gene carriers); in any case meredith and daniel were (supposed to be in) lock up when this decision was taken and would have been left behind so a rescue attempt for the humans (most likely aim of any ship showing up) would mean they would have to put boots on the ground and search the facility and only then destroy it (not having a key lying around to deactivate it easily);

I was stating that it was pointless within the context of the key being a means to stop the Traveler's ship from turning off the device, not in general terms. Thus of course taking the key served a point, but not the point that I was responding to in my quote, which was that the Asgard shouldn't have bothered fighting since they had the key (like that would stop a ship from being able to disable the Attero device). Where as if they were able to somehow take out the Traveler ship despite the costs (and then the Daedalus which was clearly not battle capable) then they would've bought themselves enough time to get reinforcements (if they had any) to the planet so that they could set up a better defense against future attacks. They also could've launched an attack against Atlantis and very likely put an end to any other ships knowing where the Attero device was located if successful.

[misterpapshmere]

Did anyone notice the electronic implants and circuits on the craniums of the Pegasus Galaxy Asgard. Remember the mysterious aliens from alternate universes from Daedalus Variations, the cyborg humanoids that boarded the Daedalus had similiar implants. I remember one of the producers said the new aliens were in that episode. The fact that these Asgard are experimenting on humans, and have similiar implants means that they have probably created cyborg soldiers as a result of their experiments. And they are probably in the season finale "Enemy At The Gates". So with the power of the Wraith in decline, and the Replicators neutralized, Atlantis is now dealing with two new factions, Michael's hybrid army, and perhaps a Pegasus Asgard army of cyborgs. It would be interesting, two threats created through genetic research, but one threat is also technologically enhanced.

[NIKIN]

Did anyone notice the electronic implants and circuits on the craniums of the Pegasus Galaxy Asgard. Remember the mysterious aliens from alternate universes from Daedalus Variations, the cyborg humanoids that boarded the Daedalus had similiar implants. I remember one of the producers said the new aliens were in that episode. The fact that these Asgard are experimenting on humans, and have similiar implants means that they have probably created cyborg soldiers as a result of their experiments. And they are probably in the season finale "Enemy At The Gates". So with the power of the Wraith in decline, and the Replicators neutralized, Atlantis is now dealing with two new factions, Michael's hybrid army, and perhaps a Pegasus Asgard army of cyborgs. It would be interesting, two threats created through genetic research, but one threat is also technologically enhanced.

Actually, Joe Malozzi said the Daedalus Variations aliens aren't coming back this year

[misterpapshmere]

You are probably right, but you have to admit that the cyborgs have to be Asgard creations because of the cranial implants. But then again with the series coming to an end, they could show up to set up the upcoming tv movie next year.

[rarocks24]

What's up with the "No human experiments!" policy in SGverse? It's like you're all of a sudden a super villain if you experiment on humans.

So... what is it about it that's so bad, anyway? We humans experiment on animals and other humans all the time, and that's just to develop new make up and other BS stuff that aren't necessities.

What did Loki do that was so horrible? He kidnapped people, replaced them with clones of themselves, did some mumbo jumbo experiments on their DNA or whatever and then returned them fully functional and whatnot.

Sure, they now have the memory of an abduction, but it's not like they were killed or something.

And why have the Asgard never thought of simply asking for people let them experiment on them?

Goa'uld: Bow down to me! Kree ("Yoo-hoo!")!
Random human #1: Oh noes!
Loki: Come with me! You'll be free from the Goa'uld and all you have to do is get poked and prodded once in a while.
Random human #1: Yay!

Wraith: Feast on their life force!
Random human #2: Oh noes!
Lost Tribe Asgard: Come with me! You'll be free from the Wraith and all you have to do is get poked and prodded once in a while.
Random human #2: Yay!

But logic has never really been a strong point with the PTB, I guess.

So forcefully abducting a person, replacing it with a clone, and then murdering the clone is acceptable?

Unless you understand what is going on (scientifically), then you can't make an informed judgment. And that's even assuming the Asgard would tell you the whole story.

Experimenting on dead humans (that died of natural causes, or at least weren't murdered in order to experiment on them) is okay.

Experimenting on animals for medical research is somewhat okay. I accept it, doesn't mean I like it.

Experimenting on live humans who don't know what's going on... VERY UNACCEPTABLE. This extends to the Wraith.

Loki acted against the moral code of his race (most of it anyways). He suffered the consequences. Abducting people by force and experimenting on them, murdering their clones, etc. is not a moral thing to do. Particularly because Thor swore to protect the human race because they saw the potential in them. In essence, its not in the nature of the majority of the Asgard to seek to such desperation and cruelty to survive as a species.

[Shpinxinator]

So forcefully abducting a person, replacing it with a clone, and then murdering the clone is acceptable?

Unless you understand what is going on (scientifically), then you can't make an informed judgment. And that's even assuming the Asgard would tell you the whole story.

Experimenting on dead humans (that died of natural causes, or at least weren't murdered in order to experiment on them) is okay.

Experimenting on animals for medical research is somewhat okay. I accept it, doesn't mean I like it.

Experimenting on live humans who don't know what's going on... VERY UNACCEPTABLE. This extends to the Wraith.

Loki acted against the moral code of his race (most of it anyways). He suffered the consequences. Abducting people by force and experimenting on them, murdering their clones, etc. is not a moral thing to do. Particularly because Thor swore to protect the human race because they saw the potential in them. In essence, its not in the nature of the majority of the Asgard to seek to such desperation and cruelty to survive as a species.


I agree I believe it was Bra'tac who said life for the sake of life means nothing...so for the Asgard who save there lives at the cost of their morals sort of defeats the purpose. In terms of Animal experimentation it even in the real world of science is sort of taboo and it's in no way look favorably upon...of course it still happens BUT again it is not well received...same with Loki and his experiments....think of the Asgard version of PETA...AETP...heh (Asgard for the Ethical Treatment of People)

[FallenAngelII]

Then again, it's one thing to experiment upon animals for the sake of saving the human race (please note that I am referring to experimentation for medicines and whatnot, not cosmetics which is highly illegal now anyway) and quite another to experiment on humans for the sake of...what exactly? Galactic and universal domination?
Um... the sake of saving themselves from slowly dying out because of flaws in their cloning technology.


So forcefully abducting a person, replacing it with a clone, and then murdering the clone is acceptable?
I never said it was perfectly acceptable. When did I say this? I just said that it's not like it's some of super-evil injustice.

Also, Loki's clones were unstable. They would all have died, anyway (how Thor randomly have a solution for this, I don't know). The episode was very vague.


Unless you understand what is going on (scientifically), then you can't make an informed judgment. And that's even assuming the Asgard would tell you the whole story.
It's for the sake of saving an entire race which is slowly dying. Hmmm... getting experimented on a little, I'd do it if there was no permanent damage (as in, I'd let them do it on me).


Experimenting on dead humans (that died of natural causes, or at least weren't murdered in order to experiment on them) is okay.
AFAWK, Loki never murdered anyone. The clones were put down because they were all dying, anyway. The people who were abducted were never harmed (AFAWK).


Experimenting on animals for medical research is somewhat okay. I accept it, doesn't mean I like it.
But apparently doing it on humans to save Asgard is wrong.


Experimenting on live humans who don't know what's going on... VERY UNACCEPTABLE. This extends to the Wraith.
Jack suffered absolutely no permanent damage. In fact, he suffered no damage at all from what we could see.

So, what, Loki treated him like royalty because it was him? What about the other victims that were interviewed who seemed fine? Their only trauma was the experience of being abducted.


Loki acted against the moral code of his race (most of it anyways). He suffered the consequences. Abducting people by force and experimenting on them, murdering their clones, etc. is not a moral thing to do. Particularly because Thor swore to protect the human race because they saw the potential in them. In essence, its not in the nature of the majority of the Asgard to seek to such desperation and cruelty to survive as a species.
You didn't once address the part where I asked why they never just asked people to let them experiment on them. Whisk them away from the reign of terror of the Wraith and the Goa'uld.

[Shpinxinator]

Um... the sake of saving themselves from slowly dying out because of flaws in their cloning technology.

I never said it was perfectly acceptable. When did I say this? I just said that it's not like it's some of super-evil injustice.

Also, Loki's clones were unstable. They would all have died, anyway (how Thor randomly have a solution for this, I don't know). The episode was very vague.


They weren't unstable by nature...Loki engendered them that way because they were no further use to him, he said himself Loki: There was no need for the clones to survive. so by that he was responsible for their deaths.


It's for the sake of saving an entire race which is slowly dying. Hmmm... getting experimented on a little, I'd do it if there was no permanent damage (as in, I'd let them do it on me).


AFAWK, Loki never murdered anyone. The clones were put down because they were all dying, anyway. The people who were abducted were never harmed (AFAWK).

Creating a being solely to have it die is murder...the clones weren't mindless husks they were sentient beings therefore having them "put down" is murdering.


But apparently doing it on humans to save Asgard is wrong.

Again Humans are sentient so this argument is flawed. Human = sentient, Dog = Not Sentient. I love animals, I think they was precious and deserve our protection and respect but they are not sentient. Any form of experimentation on a sentient being without that being's consent is immoral, period. And experimentation on a non-sentient being is only not immoral if that being is not suffering in anyway



Jack suffered absolutely no permanent damage. In fact, he suffered no damage at all from what we could see.

So, what, Loki treated him like royalty because it was him? What about the other victims that were interviewed who seemed fine? Their only trauma was the experience of being abducted.

Your assuming...wildly assuming that there were no never side effects on a cellular lever for all we know these people could have become more vulnerable to any number of diseases which they would have previously had immunity to as a direct result of Loki's work, that's not to mention to obvious physiological damage they were suffering. Regardless of any pain suffered, they were abducted against their will which is again immoral.


You didn't once address the part where I asked why they never just asked people to let them experiment on them. Whisk them away from the reign of terror of the Wraith and the Goa'uld.

...really? If you want know that your going to have to ask the Asgard yourself. Perhaps the High Council found the research to not have enough merit to follow up on, or simply that any form of experimentation on any form of life is by nature risky and felt that they themselves would rather die than cause another being to suffer. I'm speaking of course of the friendly Asgard. As for Loki and our new friends from Lost Tribe, it's a simple matter of them think they have more of a right to survive than us because they are more intelligent, history shows over and over that when a more advanced culture encounters a less advanced one the less advanced one is either assimilated or destroyed, and it was only be shier will that the Asgard didn't do this to us. If Loki had written out consent forms for his abductees to sign that would have been a different story...but...he didn't

[Ltcolshepjumper]

The thing is, we really don't know the nature of the experiments. For all we know, the Lost Tribe's experiments could have been along the lines of Michael's experimentation on humans. But, I don't get why the Asgard didn't jsut collect a bunch of genetic samples and send the people on their way. That is what they were interested in. However, to be experimented upon implies that the Asgard tampered with the human DNA. One thing, though. Did anything come out of that ancient Asgard in Revelations? It obviously didn't help the good Asgard.

[hyzmarca]

Given that they had no qualms about killing billions upon billions of replicators, I don't see how they could have any qualms about experimenting on a few humans,. Hell, with their engineering technology, they could have given away a few gold bricks as compensation.

[I_haz_a_Cookie]

From what i understand is the ancients also did expirements on humans? Remember the Ascendo machine? sure it had its benefits but its still human experimentation i dont care if it was for good or for bad when you use a human as for you experimentation the same rules apply.

Didnt the ancients also use another method of turning humans into ticking bombs? or was it the wriath, what im trying to say before pointing fingers at the asgard the ancients where no better i believe even worse.

[Ltcolshepjumper]

From what i understand is the ancients also did expirements on humans? Remember the Ascendo machine? sure it had its benefits but its still human experimentation i dont care if it was for good or for bad when you use a human as for you experimentation the same rules apply.

Didnt the ancients also use another method of turning humans into ticking bombs? or was it the wriath, what im trying to say before pointing fingers at the asgard the ancients where no better i believe even worse.

Those were never used on humans. the first was a device that allowed the Ancients to ascend faster. The second was a failed attempt at a weapon to destroy the wraith. Neither had anything to do with humans. The Ancients were definitely better than the Asgard. As well, the Ancients considered the replicators what they were, advanced programs. Artificial sentience is not sentient. It's not like they have souls.

[MCH]

Did anyone notice the electronic implants and circuits on the craniums of the Pegasus Galaxy Asgard. Remember the mysterious aliens from alternate universes from Daedalus Variations, the cyborg humanoids that boarded the Daedalus had similar implants. I remember one of the producers said the new aliens were in that episode. The fact that these Asgard are experimenting on humans, and have similar implants means that they have probably created cyborg soldiers as a result of their experiments. And they are probably in the season finale "Enemy At The Gates". So with the power of the Wraith in decline, and the Replicators neutralized, Atlantis is now dealing with two new factions, Michael's hybrid army, and perhaps a Pegasus Asgard army of cyborgs. It would be interesting, two threats created through genetic research, but one threat is also technologically enhanced.

That's very interesting points, but as much as I like your ideas on the Asgard and the enemy soldiers from Daedalus Variations Joe M in his blog said they would not been seen again in Season 5. Which is a shame cos the two together would have made a great story.


As for Human experiments by aliens that's an old story plot in scfi. Do I think it is wrong to experiment on human and animals? Thats a thorny question.

For cosmetic a definite no no.

Human experiments both non invasive and invasive, for medical cures eg cancer, senile dementia,and cystic fibrous all have effected my family and friends. I don't know after what has happened with the above illness I would love that a cure is found.

But experiments as what happened in the Concentration camps during World War 2 where people had no choice that's a definitely NO. In fact my No applies to anyone who did not give informed conscent.

Clones,
The Asgard Loki engineered his clones to dies as they where no further use to him. One of the best epsiode to try and deal with cloning was in Star Trek Enterprise. Trip is badly injuried in an accident, tosave Trip life, the doctor with Captain Archer premission created a clone of Trip to extract a necessary gland. Originally from what I remember it such not have killed the clone. So they where prepared to let the clone live. But of course it turned out it did but before that happened the clone questioned what right they had to do this. He had Trip's memory feelings. Eventually he was convincted to help Trip, by Archer need his engineer back ASAP and so died.

So where does that leave me with a story on SG1 or SGA? I think that stories that have medical experimentation, regardless of whether it is on humans or on aliens reminds us of the contradictions that exists the pros and cons and the damage it does mentally and physically to thoses who can't say NO.

MCH

[misterpapshmere]

It is unfortunate that Atlantis is ending, because one storyline they could have used to explore the ethics of the evil Asgard research is if it could have either benefited mankind or even resurrect Thor and his people, whose memories reside in the Asgard core of the Odyssey. I think that was a moral dilemma the United States faced with using the results of Nazi experiments on the concentration camp victimes from World War II. It is like, we have all of this research, obtained through the violation of the rights of the test subjects, but there is a need for this technology with mankind, or with bringing back the other Asgard. Do you use, knowing people were tortured or killed to obtain it, or does "the greater good" dictate that this technology be used.

[FallenAngelII]

They weren't unstable by nature...Loki engendered them that way because they were no further use to him, he said himself Loki: There was no need for the clones to survive. so by that he was responsible for their deaths.
It's been too long, I didn't remember that he purposely made them unstable.


Creating a being solely to have it die is murder...the clones weren't mindless husks they were sentient beings therefore having them "put down" is murdering.
But their purpose was not just to die. He cloned them to study them and then once he was done with them, he let them die due to the apparently intended flaw he put into their coding. It wasn't murder purely for the sake of murder.


Again Humans are sentient so this argument is flawed. Human = sentient, Dog = Not Sentient.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sentience
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentience

Funny, both of these pages seem to think dogs are sentient.


I love animals, I think they was precious and deserve our protection and respect but they are not sentient. Any form of experimentation on a sentient being without that being's consent is immoral, period. And experimentation on a non-sentient being is only not immoral if that being is not suffering in anyway
And what if you had their consent, as I suggested by just asking some random people who wanted to get away from the Goa'uld or the Wraith?


Your assuming...wildly assuming that there were no never side effects on a cellular lever for all we know these people could have become more vulnerable to any number of diseases which they would have previously had immunity to as a direct result of Loki's work, that's not to mention to obvious physiological damage they were suffering. Regardless of any pain suffered, they were abducted against their will which is again immoral.
You're assuming, wildly, that there were despite no such thing ever being said.

Hey, you totally ignored the part about asking for consent.

[Shpinxinator]

But their purpose was not just to die. He cloned them to study them and then once he was done with them, he let them die due to the apparently intended flaw he put into their coding. It wasn't murder purely for the sake of murder.

Loki may not have created them for the sake of letting them die but he did create with inherent flaws in their genetic makeup knowing it would lead to their deaths which is in someways just as bad


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sentience
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentience

Funny, both of these pages seem to think dogs are sentient.


No, not really, it points out that there are groups who consider Dogs to be sentient but it does not define them as sentient.

*Taken from the same Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentience)

What else is it that should trace the insuperable line? Is it the faculty of reason, or, perhaps, the faculty of discourse? But a full-grown horse or dog is beyond comparison a more rational, as well as a more conversable animal, than an infant of a day, or a week, or even a month, old. But suppose the case were otherwise, what would it avail? The question is not, "Can they reason?" nor, "Can they talk?" but, "Can they suffer?"

Now the definition of Sentience as defined by Merriam-Webster is... feeling or sensation as distinguished from perception and thought

And by Wikipedia...the ability to feel or perceive subjectively.
A dog licks itself it doesn't seek to understand why it licks itself, it just does. It does not say I lick therefore I am. Subjectivity refers to a subject's perspective, particularly feelings, beliefs, and desires. A dog licks to say clean, it barks because it senses danger or intrusion on it's territory. A dog doesn't have philosophical differences with a mailman, it sees a mailman as an intruder. Don't confuses evolutionary instinct with self awareness.


And what if you had their consent, as I suggested by just asking some random people who wanted to get away from the Goa'uld or the Wraith?

Thats a nice and happy idea....but that didn't happen...it's stated that it didn't happen...Loki didn't project a hologram into an abductee and ask if they wouldn't mind a visit to his ship...he kidnapped them...plain and simple.



You're assuming, wildly, that there were despite no such thing ever being said.

And your right, I am assume that there could be physical harm...however it was clear that physiological damage had been suffered.


Hey, you totally ignored the part about asking for consent.



...really? If you want know that your going to have to ask the Asgard yourself. Perhaps the High Council found the research to not have enough merit to follow up on, or simply that any form of experimentation on any form of life is by nature risky and felt that they themselves would rather die than cause another being to suffer. I'm speaking of course of the friendly Asgard. As for Loki and our new friends from Lost Tribe, it's a simple matter of them think they have more of a right to survive than us because they are more intelligent, history shows over and over that when a more advanced culture encounters a less advanced one the less advanced one is either assimilated or destroyed, and it was only be shier will that the Asgard didn't do this to us. If Loki had written out consent forms for his abductees to sign that would have been a different story...but...he didn't
Um...No...I didn't...

[FallenAngelII]

Thats a nice and happy idea....but that didn't happen...it's stated that it didn't happen...Loki didn't project a hologram into an abductee and ask if they wouldn't mind a visit to his ship...he kidnapped them...plain and simple.
I'm sorry, I claimed this happened when?

I asked:
Why did Loki and the Pegasus Asgard never simply just ask people if they wanted to be experimented on (I didn't elaborate, but I meant before abducting them).

If the answer is "No", they move on. With the Wraith and Goa'uld plaguing both galaxies, how hard would it be to find people willing to be experimented on if they got to be saved?

This is, of course, assuming that the experiments do not permanently damage people.



And your right, I am assume that there could be physical harm...however it was clear that physiological damage had been suffered.
Clear how?



Um...No...I didn't...
You talked about someone entirely different from what I talked about. You're still talked about something different from what I talked about (though that's because I was unclear, not because you felt like addressing something entirely different, yet connected).

[Laura Dove]

No, not really, it points out that there are groups who consider Dogs to be sentient but it does not define them as sentient.

Humans decide that dogs are not sentient enough to be immune from being experimented on.
Asgard decide that humans are not intelligent/evolved enough to be immune from being experimented on.

I fail to see the difference.


A dog licks itself it doesn't seek to understand why it licks itself, it just does. It does not say I lick therefore I am. Subjectivity refers to a subject's perspective, particularly feelings, beliefs, and desires. A dog licks to say clean, it barks because it senses danger or intrusion on it's territory. A dog doesn't have philosophical differences with a mailman, it sees a mailman as an intruder. Don't confuses evolutionary instinct with self awareness.

How do you know? Did you ask them? And you conveniently forget than babies are even less self-aware. So you're OK with experiments on babies?

[misterpapshmere]

I wonder if Michael might try to strike up an alliance with these guys, since they both have common goals, destroy the Wraith at all costs, and genetics.

[Ltcolshepjumper]

I'm sorry, I claimed this happened when?

I asked:
Why did Loki and the Pegasus Asgard never simply just ask people if they wanted to be experimented on (I didn't elaborate, but I meant before abducting them).

If the answer is "No", they move on. With the Wraith and Goa'uld plaguing both galaxies, how hard would it be to find people willing to be experimented on if they got to be saved?

This is, of course, assuming that the experiments do not permanently damage people.


Clear how?


You talked about someone entirely different from what I talked about. You're still talked about something different from what I talked about (though that's because I was unclear, not because you felt like addressing something entirely different, yet connected).

Ask someone in a third world country if he or she wants to be experimented upon. the reason they don't ask people is simply because people don't like to be experimented upon.


Humans decide that dogs are not sentient enough to be immune from being experimented on.Asgard decide that humans are not intelligent/evolved enough to be immune from being experimented on.
I fail to see the difference.



How do you know? Did you ask them? And you conveniently forget than babies are even less self-aware. So you're OK with experiments on babies?

Look, experimenting on life for any sort of goal is wrong. But, you cannot say that an animal is sentient. Intelligent, perhaps, but that intelligence does not correspond to sentience. Animals operate on instinct. Now yes, there are many factors that determine animal behavior, but it's still instinct. Now, how this has to do with experimentation I don't know. But, what I do know is that it's highly unlikely that the Asgard view humans as unintelligent. They probably don't even view them as unevolved. Why would they? they are studying human genetics to restore themselves to a similar level! No, they merely view humans as insignificant, just like we view those who don't contribute to the betterment of society as insignificant. It has nothing to do with evolution.

Now, experimentation on life on any level is wrong (note, this is different than collecting tissue for the purpose of examination).

[Ltcolshepjumper]

*Taken from the same Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentience)

What else is it that should trace the insuperable line? Is it the faculty of reason, or, perhaps, the faculty of discourse? But a full-grown horse or dog is beyond comparison a more rational, as well as a more conversable animal, than an infant of a day, or a week, or even a month, old. But suppose the case were otherwise, what would it avail? The question is not, "Can they reason?" nor, "Can they talk?" but, "Can they suffer?"

Now the definition of Sentience as defined by Merriam-Webster is... feeling or sensation as distinguished from perception and thought

And by Wikipedia...the ability to feel or perceive subjectively.
A dog licks itself it doesn't seek to understand why it licks itself, it just does. It does not say I lick therefore I am. Subjectivity refers to a subject's perspective, particularly feelings, beliefs, and desires. A dog licks to say clean, it barks because it senses danger or intrusion on it's territory. A dog doesn't have philosophical differences with a mailman, it sees a mailman as an intruder. Don't confuses evolutionary instinct with self awareness.


the first passage isn't even a scientific dissertation. It's an essay from a proponent of animal rights. I wouldn't use self-awareness, because an animal knows its own. However, the question is, do animals rationalize? can they reason? And, I think the comparison between a full-grown horse and an infant is definitely flawed.

But none of this really relates to the initial question.

In a word, human experimentation is inhumane.

[Shpinxinator]

Ask someone in a third world country if he or she wants to be experimented upon. the reason they don't ask people is simply because people don't like to be experimented upon.



Look, experimenting on life for any sort of goal is wrong. But, you cannot say that an animal is sentient. Intelligent, perhaps, but that intelligence does not correspond to sentience. Animals operate on instinct. Now yes, there are many factors that determine animal behavior, but it's still instinct. Now, how this has to do with experimentation I don't know. But, what I do know is that it's highly unlikely that the Asgard view humans as unintelligent. They probably don't even view them as unevolved. Why would they? they are studying human genetics to restore themselves to a similar level! No, they merely view humans as insignificant, just like we view those who don't contribute to the betterment of society as insignificant. It has nothing to do with evolution.

Now, experimentation on life on any level is wrong (note, this is different than collecting tissue for the purpose of examination).


I agree completely, all life is precious and all life should be treated with respect.



Humans decide that dogs are not sentient enough to be immune from being experimented on.
Asgard decide that humans are not intelligent/evolved enough to be immune from being experimented on.

I fail to see the difference.



How do you know? Did you ask them? And you conveniently forget than babies are even less self-aware. So you're OK with experiments on babies?

As a matter of fact I have spoken to my Dog from time to time...not a great conversationalist...

And as for babies not being self aware...Being self aware isn't a learned ability, either a living thing is born with the mental ability to be self aware or not

[amconway]

In general, Stargate has been a show with clear cut right and wrong, villains and heros . Unfortunately, the writers forgot that when they had the folks in Atlantis experimenting on the Wraith - one reason that I infinately prefer SG-1 to Atlantis. Killing them is fine, they are the villains, after all. Experimenting on them is not. I regret the tendency of TPTB to equate dabbling in questionable morality with advancing the franchise, or character development.

[Ltcolshepjumper]

In general, Stargate has been a show with clear cut right and wrong, villains and heros . Unfortunately, the writers forgot that when they had the folks in Atlantis experimenting on the Wraith - one reason that I infinately prefer SG-1 to Atlantis. Killing them is fine, they are the villains, after all. Experimenting on them is not. I regret the tendency of TPTB to equate dabbling in questionable morality with advancing the franchise, or character development.

Yeah. that was just a horrible arc in the first place.

[tricky]

Wow, questions of morality and beliefs all from a Sci-Fi show!

I love good debates (not those fake political ones), good job all!

But, after thinking about it, I think I might have found a solution to the Asgard problem, at least short term.

We know that they transfer their memories from one Clone to another, right?

And, they apparently can clone humans, right?

So, why not transfer the Asgard consciousness to a newly cloned Human body? Sure, this doesn't "fix" the problem, but it would have pushed it back at least a few thousand years.

Ok, I hear a few of you saying "But Tricky, the Asgard mind is soo big and powerful, that a puny human brain can't contain all of it without frying like Jack's did when the Ancient Database was crammed in his noggin!"

Good point! Well, if that were the case, I'm sure that the SGC has genetic samples of Ancients, evolved humans, and other entities that could house that big Asgard brain!

[jelgate]

Wouldn't humans have the same problem as O'Neill did when the Ancient's knowledge was downloaded in his mind. I don't we can handle the Asgard's conscience.

[jenks]

lol

[Giantevilhead]

Heimdall said that the Asgard haven't been capable of sexual reproduction for 1,000 years. That means the Asgard who went to Pegasus should still be able to reproduce sexually, which would pretty much resolve the cloning problem. Unless, the Asgard have some irrational hatred against dying and children.

[tricky]

Wouldn't humans have the same problem as O'Neill did when the Ancient's knowledge was downloaded in his mind. I don't we can handle the Asgard's conscience.

I covered that, Jelgate: they could try cloning that Ancient they found in Antartica, an Ori, Adria, or even Anubis's 'son'. All of them were mentally superior to us, and thus more likely to hold the big brain of a Asgard. Or, someone could create cool new replicator bodies for them (now how's that for irony?).


That's a good point, Giantevilhead! That's why I thought the grey guys from DV were Asgard that might have gone the other way; they kept doin' it the old fashion way and thus were more aggresive and less mental than the Asgard!

[PantheraLeo]

But, after thinking about it, I think I might have found a solution to the Asgard problem, at least short term.

We know that they transfer their memories from one Clone to another, right?

And, they apparently can clone humans, right?

So, why not transfer the Asgard consciousness to a newly cloned Human body? Sure, this doesn't "fix" the problem, but it would have pushed it back at least a few thousand years.

Ok, I hear a few of you saying "But Tricky, the Asgard mind is soo big and powerful, that a puny human brain can't contain all of it without frying like Jack's did when the Ancient Database was crammed in his noggin!"

Good point! Well, if that were the case, I'm sure that the SGC has genetic samples of Ancients, evolved humans, and other entities that could house that big Asgard brain!

No, that would not work. If say you did create a clone of a human, the clone itself would have a consciousness. What would you do then? It won't be very ethical.

[tricky]

But the Asgard clones don't have a consciousness, otherwise, theyd be erasing it's mind to make way for the original mind.

For example, when Thor's mind got stuck in that mothership, they had to download it into a clone body. The inference here is that Asgard clones don't have a mind, so they are blank slates for the minds to be put into, which holds true to my belief in clones: that they don't have any sort of mind, not unless they are somehow 'preprogrammed' with knowledge.

[Giantevilhead]

The Asgard should use Goa'ulds. Since Goa'ulds carry the memories of all those who came before, they should be powerful enough to hold Asgard minds.