Asgard Neutrino Ion Generators - Vastly Inferior to ZPM's?

[Buba uognarf]

This thread is basically me listing my thoughts and reasons for believing Neutrino Ion Generators e.g. the power source the Asgard used on their mother ships is vastly inferior to a single ZPM.

1) In 'Revelations' an Asgard mother ship powered by 4 NIG's (from now on I shall refer to Neutrino Ion Generators as NIG's) was defeated by 2 Anubis Ha'taks upgraded with Ancient technology. It should be noted that its weapons had minimal effect on said Ha'taks. We don't know how long the battle lasted after this but judging by the fact that Anubis was still able to be challenged by the other system lords such as Lord Yu we know his Ha'tak were not 'so' much more powerful than a standard Ha'tak. If an Asgard ship was able to be defeated so easily by these Ha'tak that shows me its shields, weapons and therefore power souce could not be ZPM. This is because we have seen Atlantis' shield can withstand days of continuous weapons fire from 10 Hive ships + at least 20 cruisers. This shows a massive difference in shield strength. IMO the shields do operate in different ways, Atlantis powered by a ZPM will not lose shields until the ZPM us depleted. Asgard ships use buffers as far as we have seen. This in itself shows their generators have not the output needed to power such a powerful shield under heavy bombardment.

Conclusion - Asgard ships powered by 4 generators have shown to be vastly inferior in shield strength to Atlantis powered by 1 ZPM. This shows that a ZPM can output vastly more power than 4 NIG's at least in the short term. How long a NIG would need to be active to match a ZPM is unknown but likely to be very very high.

2) This reason is based purely on size. A ZPM is thousands of times smaller than a NIG. It is also much more powerful. Clearly it is vastly superior in this respect.

3) My third reasons comes from the episode 'Small Victories'.

CARTER
So why are the bug's ships traveling so slow?

THOR
In order to generate the subspace field required to travel at hyperspeed, full power of the generators is required. Presently they are using that power to replicate.

CARTER
So, if they did decide to go to hyperspeed it would also mean no shields or weapons.

THOR
Yes. But remember the replicators do not care about time as we do.

From this we know that the 4 NIG's aboard an Asgard mother ship fail to produce the power needed to both enter hyperspace and power shields. Something Atlantis with a single ZPM is capable of. It should be noted that Atlantis takes a lot of power to get the ship off the ground while using its shield which is quite ridicules but the fact of the matter is that it can power shields in hyperspace. Something replicator infested Asgard ships couldn't do (these ships themselves are superior to the Asgard controlled versions).

Conclusion - Atlantis is very large vessel with the internal volume of every building in Manhattan. It can both enter hyperspace and maintain its shields. Something a much smaller ship powered by 4 NIG's + Replicators is incapable of. The struggle Atlantis goes through to take off might be due to the massive drain of the Asuran energy beam plus its massive size. Either way a ZPM is definately superior.

Those are all my reasons taken from comparison. Between NIG's and ZPM's I will now give my thoughts on an argument I have seen time and time again in favor of NIG's.



We know from 'The Siege part III' I believe that the Deadalus takes 4 days to travel from Earth to Lantea when powered by a ZPM. We also know that an Asgard ship takes 4 days to travel from Earth to Lantea (this was said in the season 3 episode Misbegotten). Can people please refer to this episode for any quotes I have no desire to post quotes from it every time someone questions this.

The argument is basically as follows;

Asgard ship + Asgard hyperdrive + Asgard power source = 4 days
Earth ship + Asgard hyperdrive + ZPM = 4 days

Therefore the power sources are equal

Now IMO there are several problems with this argument. One is assuming the Asgard hyperdrives on both ships are the same and when used on our ships it is as efficient as on an Asgard ship. That is a minor problem with this argument but still enough to raise doubt. My major problem with it is that this assumes the Asgard hyperdrive speed is limited by nothing but power! That is to say that if you continue to add more generators it will get faster and faster and faster. Now this may be true to some extent (an episode of Top Gear comes to mind involving a battery powered car and a mustang lol) but there has to be a limit to how fast a hyper drive can be. Without knowing how faster hyperdrives are achieved we can't know for sure, but to assume because they have the same travel time they must have equal power sources is flawed. It is my opinion when weighed against other examples that 4 days is simply the fastest an Asgard hyperdrive can go between Earth and Lantea and that adding more power souces wouldn't be able to change it.

Another possibility is that the Asgard ship which carried Weir to Atlantis was powered by something other than NIG's something much more powerful. But that is speculation and would require IMO a massive massive jump in power generating ability. One that is too big to be assumed.

What comes next is me just bigging up ZPM's;

1) We've had them be described as containing planet busting levels of energy on a few occasions. Not only that but they've also been said to be able to destroy an entire solar system! (though I don't necessarily believe that)

2) Project Arcturus in 'Trinity' was said to be capable of practically limitless power. Yet Mckay said;

McKAY: So we don't operate the generator at anywhere near its potential. Look, there's no need to be greedy. Even operating at fifty percent, it'll still generate the power of a dozen ZedP.Ms.

So we have a device capable of generating enough power to obliterate 5/6th of a star system and at 50% power thats only 12 ZPM's. That gives each ZPM easily enough power to destroy a planet many times over. While an Asgard ship goes down from 2 Ha'tak.

3) Numbers of ZPM's have power generating ability comparable to a black hole. Now I have no idea how energy would be harnessed from a black hole but suffice to say it would be massive! The forces a black hole exerts are so big its easy to see if power could be taped from it it would be massive. And yet ZPM's have been seen to do what black holes have done. Examples are ZPM's (working in concept) keeping a stargate open for unlimited amounts of time and a ZPM powering the Supergate to a galaxy too far away to reach with hyperdrives without indication it lost significant power!


Those are basically my thoughts on ZPM's when compared to NIG's I am not passing them off as facts although I believe IMO canon supports me. Please offer counters but base it on evidence or you can simply green me and agree.

Note: This thread is for comparing Asgard power sources and ZPM's. This is not an 'Asgard beams own!!!!!!!' thread or an 'Ancients are supreme!!!!!!!!" thread this is a comparison of power sources. Anything relevant to this may be referenced including other technologies, for example someone can bring in a piece of Asgard technology to show superior power generating capabilities but it must be linked to power generation.

[EternalAlteran]

Nope possibly multiple are equal to ZPMs and they are probably more useful than a zpm, cause if a zpm is empty it cannot be recharged and the generators can.

[Buba uognarf]

Nope possibly multiple are equal to ZPMs and they are probably more useful than a zpm, cause if a zpm is empty it cannot be recharged and the generators can.

Multiple as in 1000? A ZPM may not be able to be recharged but contains massive amounts of energy. It would take a NIG a long time to match the energy inside of a ZPM.

[Aer'ki]

Ok, first, the battle against the Goa'uld. Why did they win?

1. Enhanced shields.
2. Numerical advantage.
3. Old Asgard ship.
4. Some other factor not given. We didn't actually see the battle.

Now, when the other Asgard ships arrived, they noted that they were considerably more advanced...which would probably mean more advanced NIGs.

Or the Asgard could use powersources other than NIGs on their more modern ships.

But remember, an NIG and a ZPM are not the same thing...one is a generator, the other is a super-battery. One produces power, one releases stored energy. One is large, and one is tiny(in realspace anyway).

So, really we're comparing apples to oranges...but in the end a ZPM will supply far more power at a far quicker rate than an NIG...their longevity, however, must come into question. At a nominal power depletion rate, which would last longer? The NIG's, with large fuel tanks, might have the advantage here.

I would also expect it's easier to build a NIG than a ZPM, maybe at a ratio of 1000:1. Plus the Asgard might not know how to build a ZPM, their tech is less advanced than the Ancients, after all.

[Buba uognarf]

Ok, first, the battle against the Goa'uld. Why did they win?

1. Enhanced shields.
2. Numerical advantage.
3. Old Asgard ship.
4. Some other factor not given. We didn't actually see the battle.

Now, when the other Asgard ships arrived, they noted that they were considerably more advanced...which would probably mean more advanced NIGs.

Also note the new Asgard ships failed to respond to the attack Anubis made on the Asgard. The Goa'uld committed an act of war and didn't even receive a slap on the wrist. That in itself tells me the Asgard Oneill's can't be that far beyond the older vessels. Logically they couldn't be that much more powerful either, its unlikely that the Asgard could increase the strength of their ships by so many times.

We have no evidence to suggest any Asgard ship could survive days of bombardment from a Wraith fleet, nothing suggests they'd last more than a few minutes IMO.

Or the Asgard could use powersources other than NIGs on their more modern ships.

But remember, an NIG and a ZPM are not the same thing...one is a generator, the other is a super-battery. One produces power, one releases stored energy. One is large, and one is tiny(in realspace anyway).

I see a ZPM as a generator too. It generates power from a self contained region of subspace time. Its only a battery in the sense that you can't put more power into it or 'refuel it'.

So, really we're comparing apples to oranges...but in the end a ZPM will supply far more power at a far quicker rate than an NIG...their longevity, however, must come into question. At a nominal power depletion rate, which would last longer? The NIG's, with large fuel tanks, might have the advantage here.

I would also expect it's easier to build a NIG than a ZPM, maybe at a ratio of 1000:1. Plus the Asgard might not know how to build a ZPM, their tech is less advanced than the Ancients, after all.

How large would the fuel tank have to be? I'd expect it to have to be pretty large. Which is an inefficient use of space considering a ZPM is a fraction of the size.

I'd bet on the fact the Asgard couldn't create a ZPM, but that is besides the point. 1000:1? Speculation and unfounded IMO. Surely the Ancients had a mechanism to build ZPMs, its never been suggested they were in short supply either. To say its a thousand times easier to build a NIG is speculation, a NIG may be a thousand times more simple but that doesn't mean it would be any harder for the Ancients. For them building both could be quite a simple matter, maybe the ZPM would be more complex but if they had the mechanisms in place to build one it would not necessarily be any harder.

[Character]

I agree that asgard reactors are inferior, although personaly, i'd guess ~1:8 - 1:16 ratio, not hundreds or thousands. However, i dont agree with your reasoning.

Your first point: One important thing to note is that we didnt see the battle, so there may not have been just 2 hataks, but rather a dozen or more, and the asgard wouldnt be afraid if they though they're against old weak hataks. Also your comparing power sources, but then your saying that ion neutrino reactors are weaker because of shields? and of atlantisis at that. Apart from the fact that the asgard shields may be weaker or more power hungry, it s also very important to note that atlantis has 10 shield emiters and since the city is far bigger, the emmiters could be far bigger and more powerfull; This goes for the power conduits as well, not only tare they bigger and can pump more energy to the shields, but they also might be more advanced.
Bottom line is, shields are not a measure of comparison for power sources.

Second point is valid, but i' could argue that ZMPs are fragile and dangerous do to this small size.

Your third point: Again, your comparing asgard ships with atlantis. Apart from the possibility that both hyperdrive and shield of atlantis could be more efficient/advanced, theirs also the very real possibility that they didnt go at full speed, since they absolutely needed the shield and had only one zpm, while in small victories, the rep ships did go at full speed, since they wanted to catch the O'Neill. Basicly, just because atlantis is more advanced than a beliskener (as we know almost nothing about the o'neills), doesnt mean ion N. reactors are vastly inferior to ZPMs.

For the trip time to peasus, i wouldnt take weirs((or whoever said it) words as fact, how would lantis expedition know full specs of asgard ships? after all we've seen asgard travel between galaxys in a matter of hours at most, even with the prometheus in tow.

For other points, we dont realy know weather or not an overloading ion neutrino reactor could destroy a planet or solar system, so taking such aspects of a ZPM is pointless.
Comparing ZMPs to black holes is pointless too; for one, we dont know if asgard reactors are or arent capable of the same, for another, the shows dont have any clear indication to this comparison, as we dont realy know what power sources the ori used to power the gates and stuff, their ships certainly didnt use zpms, and the asuran beams was powered by, as mckay put it, "unlimited number of ZPMs".
And i dont see how arcturus project is relevent when comparing ZPMs and ion N reactors.

Basicly, your arguments make too much assumtions for me to think your idea is correct.

[Mister Oragahn]

We had a whole thread dedicated to this comparison. Why a new one?

Irony of all, it's linked at the bottom of this page, top of the list:

http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=48506

Please let's merge this into the older and more complete one.
Who calls the mods for this little procedure?

[Buba uognarf]

[QUOTE]

I agree that asgard reactors are inferior, although personaly, i'd guess ~1:8 - 1:16 ratio, not hundreds or thousands. However, i dont agree with your reasoning.

Your first point: One important thing to note is that we didnt see the battle, so there may not have been just 2 hataks, but rather a dozen or more, and the asgard wouldnt be afraid if they though they're against old weak hataks. Also your comparing power sources, but then your saying that ion neutrino reactors are weaker because of shields? and of atlantisis at that. Apart from the fact that the asgard shields may be weaker or more power hungry, it s also very important to note that atlantis has 10 shield emiters and since the city is far bigger, the emmiters could be far bigger and more powerfull; This goes for the power conduits as well, not only tare they bigger and can pump more energy to the shields, but they also might be more advanced.
Bottom line is, shields are not a measure of comparison for power sources.

We saw 2 Ha'tak at the beginning of the battle and 2 after it, therefore logically there were 2 Ha'tak. To claim otherwise requires evidence. I think shields can be used as a measure of strength, shields need to power, therefore if NIG's were as powerful as ZPM's they would be able to power more powerful shields. A ship powered by 4 NIG's was destroyed by as far as we know 2 Ha'tak. A single ZPM lets Altantis stand for days under bombardment a dozen times larger (going by the ship numbers). More shield emitters won't increase the power going to the shields, power conduits will although the ZPM will be losing more power as a result. The bottom line is (if you don't mind me stealing your expression) shields are a measure of comparison. Maybe not for exact figures but its enough to show ZPM's are vastly superior IMO.

Second point is valid, but i' could argue that ZMPs are fragile and dangerous do to this small size.

I could also argue that the ZPM being fragile doesn't make a difference when its deep within the ship especially as its a much smaller target than a NIG.

Your third point: Again, your comparing asgard ships with atlantis. Apart from the possibility that both hyperdrive and shield of atlantis could be more efficient/advanced, theirs also the very real possibility that they didnt go at full speed, since they absolutely needed the shield and had only one zpm, while in small victories, the rep ships did go at full speed, since they wanted to catch the O'Neill. Basicly, just because atlantis is more advanced than a beliskener (as we know almost nothing about the o'neills), doesnt mean ion N. reactors are vastly inferior to ZPMs.

Atlantis being more efficient and advanced is likely IMO but that doesn't change the fact that it can go into hyperspace shields raised and an Asgard ship can not. We know things such as hyperdrive and shields require more power depending on the size of the object needing the shield or entering hyperspace. The fact Atlantis is far larger and its power source allows it to do what a ship with 4 NIG's and replicators shows clear ZPM superiority.

For the trip time to peasus, i wouldnt take weirs((or whoever said it) words as fact, how would lantis expedition know full specs of asgard ships? after all we've seen asgard travel between galaxys in a matter of hours at most, even with the prometheus in tow.

I would, she knows how long it took them to travel. What powered the ship or the specs is irrelevant as my point was that equal travel time does not = equal power source. Obviously something has changed because it took an Asgard ship 4 days to do it in Misbegotten.

For other points, we dont realy know weather or not an overloading ion neutrino reactor could destroy a planet or solar system, so taking such aspects of a ZPM is pointless.
Comparing ZMPs to black holes is pointless too; for one, we dont know if asgard reactors are or arent capable of the same, for another, the shows dont have any clear indication to this comparison, as we dont realy know what power sources the ori used to power the gates and stuff, their ships certainly didnt use zpms, and the asuran beams was powered by, as mckay put it, "unlimited number of ZPMs".
And i dont see how arcturus project is relevent when comparing ZPMs and ion N reactors.

My other points were to demonstrate the massive amounts of power a ZPM contains. This also illustrates what a NIG would have to contend with. We cannot assume a NIG is capable of similar feats without evidence of which there is none. So basically unless we have evidence of the Asgard achieving something similar to what ZPM's can apparently do, we can assume ZPM's are superior seeing as equally such feats would require levels of power the Asgard have never demonstrated. At least judging by NIG's.

Basicly, your arguments make too much assumtions for me to think your idea is correct.

Please list the assumptions I've made.

[Buba uognarf]

We had a whole thread dedicated to this comparison. Why a new one?

Grrr damn...Now you mentioned it I vaguely remember it. But there's a difference, that thread was; 'Neutrino Ion Generators better than ZPM's?'...Mine is 'Asgard Neutrino Ion Generators - Vastly Inferior to ZPM's?' completely different you see.

[Zalenka]

I think a lot of it comes down to the superiority of Ancient tech: shields, weapons etc. When it comes to travelling they both have the same effect. Asgard ship takes as long to get to Atlantis as a ZPM powered 304.

We're never sure how much power a NIG can produce in one go. We can see a ZPM can prioduce loads but it will empty pretty quickly. An NIG shouldn't wmpty, as far as i know, so I'd say I'd prefer for Earth to rely on NIGs rather than ever elusive ZPMs.

[thekillman]

look buba. i believe your calcs [if they are yours] about the power of 50kg of neutronium throws the "NIGS are inferior" thing out of the window: infact, a ZPM is inferior. vastly. why? put it like this: NIG generates 1 trillion joules per second. if a ZPM has to do that, itll deplete in 4 months. a NIG can sustain that as long as there is neutronium. i believe ancients couldve used NIG's to produce ZPMs: 1 NIG= 3 ZPM's per year. tenfold that, and you have 30 ZPM's per year, roughly equal to one every ten days. clealy, the asgard and ancients dont think similar. ancients needed small and portable. asgard didnt care about it. i do agree however, that a ZPM can deplete itself very rapidly, and thus creating alot of short term power. but on the long term, NIGs rule. its why asgard use buffers

[Buba uognarf]

look buba. i believe your calcs [if they are yours] about the power of 50kg of neutronium throws the "NIGS are inferior" thing out of the window: infact, a ZPM is inferior. vastly. why? put it like this: NIG generates 1 trillion joules per second. if a ZPM has to do that, itll deplete in 4 months. a NIG can sustain that as long as there is neutronium. i believe ancients couldve used NIG's to produce ZPMs: 1 NIG= 3 ZPM's per year. tenfold that, and you have 30 ZPM's per year, roughly equal to one every ten days. clealy, the asgard and ancients dont think similar. ancients needed small and portable. asgard didnt care about it. i do agree however, that a ZPM can deplete itself very rapidly, and thus creating alot of short term power. but on the long term, NIGs rule. its why asgard use buffers

Its never been said that a NIG can output 1 trillion joules per second. Your whole post is assumption and made up stuff. My arguments are based on whats seen in the show. If you can't back it up with something said, shown or even implied then please leave it out of the argument.

I have changed my position somewhat though. For long term low power intensive contraptions a NIG will lots of fuel is better. However if you want to generate a lot of power fast or power some very powerful stuff, ZPMs are vastly better.

[titan_hq]

I'm not sure if this is relevent but it seems like a good opportunity to see what you all think of my 'How a NIG works' hypothesis.

It would mean that, even though they can't provide as much energy they would be my first choice everytime. (All will be explained in a minute.)

Spoiler:

How a Neutrino – Ion Generator (NIG) works?

This hypothesis relies on a few assumptions:
*The Asgard have managed to perfect a way of making the processes stated below possible,
*Neutrinos and Anti-Neutrinos react in a similar way to Matter and Anti-Matter,
*Neutrinos and Anti-neutrinos aren’t the same particle.

Let’s look at two processes (reactions)

N > p + e + ve- (Neutron > Proton + Electron + Anti-Neutrino)
p + e > N + ve (Proton + Electron > Neutron + Neutrino)

This is an infinite reaction of Neutrons becoming Protons and Electrons, and, Protons and Electrons becoming Neutrons. All the time emitting Neutrinos and Anti-Neutrinos.

As long and there is a store of Neutrons, and, a way to react Protons and Electrons together, there is an infinite reaction.

This reaction would create the ‘fuel’ to run the ship. Thus each ship has an infinite supply of fuel. Pretty handy on those long voyages exploring galaxies. The reactions would be done quicker or slower to provide more or less fuel as needed.
The neutrinos and anti-neutrinos would be reacted in a total annihilation reaction. This means they would both be completely converted into energy.

I realise that this may not even be possible, and as we don’t know enough about neutrinos or anti-neutrinos, I’m not sure anyone could prove otherwise.
Still I’m quite sure the basic physics and ideas behind it are solid. (Feel free to point out any errors)

This means that NIGs are 'better' because while they may not provide as much energy as quickly as a ZPM they provide more or less infinite energy. That's quite cool if you ask me.

[Buba uognarf]

I'm not sure if this is relevent but it seems like a good opportunity to see what you all think of my 'How a NIG works' hypothesis.

It would mean that, even though they can't provide as much energy they would be my first choice everytime. (All will be explained in a minute.)

Spoiler:

How a Neutrino – Ion Generator (NIG) works?

This hypothesis relies on a few assumptions:
*The Asgard have managed to perfect a way of making the processes stated below possible,
*Neutrinos and Anti-Neutrinos react in a similar way to Matter and Anti-Matter,
*Neutrinos and Anti-neutrinos aren’t the same particle.

Let’s look at two processes (reactions)

N > p + e + ve- (Neutron > Proton + Electron + Anti-Neutrino)
p + e > N + ve (Proton + Electron > Neutron + Neutrino)

This is an infinite reaction of Neutrons becoming Protons and Electrons, and, Protons and Electrons becoming Neutrons. All the time emitting Neutrinos and Anti-Neutrinos.

As long and there is a store of Neutrons, and, a way to react Protons and Electrons together, there is an infinite reaction.

This reaction would create the ‘fuel’ to run the ship. Thus each ship has an infinite supply of fuel. Pretty handy on those long voyages exploring galaxies. The reactions would be done quicker or slower to provide more or less fuel as needed.
The neutrinos and anti-neutrinos would be reacted in a total annihilation reaction. This means they would both be completely converted into energy.

I realise that this may not even be possible, and as we don’t know enough about neutrinos or anti-neutrinos, I’m not sure anyone could prove otherwise.
Still I’m quite sure the basic physics and ideas behind it are solid. (Feel free to point out any errors)

This means that NIGs are 'better' because while they may not provide as much energy as quickly as a ZPM they provide more or less infinite energy. That's quite cool if you ask me.

Thats if they work in this way. Either way a ZPM supplies far more energy far more quickly than a NIG.

[titan_hq]

Thats if they work in this way. Either way a ZPM supplies far more energy far more quickly than a NIG.

I'm not disagreeing with you, all I'm saying is personally I would pick *slow* infinite energy over *fast* finite energy.

Maybe use a couple of ZPMs as emergency shield power, but a NIG would be the better choice in the long run.