Design of Excalibur.

[Zalenka]

Why is it so poor?

It has a major flaw in the design of its primary weapon and its point defence weapons is nothing compared to that of the Sharlin class cruisers or those aliens with the saucer ships that took out loads of fighters at the same time.

I'd of added an organic hull, a minbari weapons system and the ability to enter an atmosphere.

[P-90_177]

Hmmmm. Not sure about the Point defence systems. You'd think that they'd put some kind of minbari weaponry on there really. Not the Earth Force weapons they seem to have. I always found that a bit strange. Maybe Earth Plasma weaponry has an advantage over Minbari point defences that we don't know about.

As for the rest.......well it's hull armour is based on Vorlon Tech. As is the weaponry. I think when we first see it it is said that the hull can absorb almost all the energy from known weaponry, leaving just the physical impact. Course I'm not sure weather that's better than the armour on the whitestars that actually learns.
Weaponry though is primarily the same beams on the whitestars. Which are incredibly powerful for a start. Couple that with the mega-beam O Death and I think that's a pretty powerful arsenal. It's a shame we never saw it in combat properly with a capital ship that we can compare it to. Like a Omega or even Shadow Vessel. But even then from what we know, other than the point defence system I reckon it's still a near perfect ship so not really seeing the problem. Plus there isn't much need to enter an atmosphere anyway.

[Zalenka]

[QUOTE=P-90_177;8773557]Maybe Earth Plasma weaponry has an advantage over Minbari point defences that we don't know about.

[QUOTE]

remember how effective the minbari weapons were in tn the battle of the line.

Landing on a planet would look cool, that's the only reason I'd want it.

I would also like it to look more like a cross between a Narn and a minbari cruiser, that way it would just look like you wouldn't want to mess with it. The towers look to flimsy to me.

[nx01a]

I like the ship, though not as much as I love my Whitestar.:) The main gun is based on Vorlon systems. The hull is a mix of Human and Minbari design concepts. The ISA intended to grow Vorlon organic armour over the hull, but never got the time, what with the plague and all.
http://b5tech.com/isa/excalibur/excalibur.html

[nx01a]

I'd of added an organic hull, a minbari weapons system and the ability to enter an atmosphere.Then we'd have a huge Whitestar. :D Not a bad thing, mind you.

[Missster.Freeman]

I think that's what the Interstellar Alliance were trying to create in the first place - a Destroyer/Cruiser sized version of the Whitestar. I'm glad they were never covered with Shadow skin. Those modified Omegas sure were ugly! Yuck.

[./freelancer]

The Victory class is described as a Heavy Destroyed, but to me it seems more like a Battleship/Carrier, intended to be escorted by several other ships, which can handle point defence. The way it was used in Crusade (all alone) just seems odd. The fact that it loses all power when firing the main gun strongly suggests that it's not supposed to be alone.

[jds1982]

I dunno I thought the Omega-Xs were pretty sweet looking.

[nx01a]

I second that. Literally the opposite of the Whitestars. :D

I think that's what the Interstellar Alliance were trying to create in the first place - a Destroyer/Cruiser sized version of the Whitestar. I'm glad they were never covered with Shadow skin. Those modified Omegas sure were ugly! Yuck.Vorlon organic armour was going to be used on the Victory class, not the Shadow skin. And the Shadow skin is beautiful! Now, if Earth covered the Warlocks in Shadow skin, that would be very sweet.:D

[Missster.Freeman]

Yeah, blocky and ugly as opposed to sleek and beautiful. ;) Maybe if those spiny bits were trimmed off it'd look better. :P

That said, if the Excalibur was coated in Shadow skin without the spines, I can imagine it would look good.

[nx01a]

I meant Human/Shadow vs Minbari/Vorlon.;) Sure, the Omega-X's were bulky but yet beautiful, as opposed to the Whitestars being sleek and beautiful.

[Zalenka]

I've thought about it a bit more and these are the features that I'd like to of seen in the excalibur.

An all round weapon system that resembles that of the Sharlin Battle cruiser.

A secondary weapon system that resemles the main weapons of the Sharlin, but has similarities to the weapons of a vorlon escort. 4 prongs that produce a beam from which the weapon extends.

A holographic battle control room. Where the picture comes up and you can see everything. (but can't control the weapons from the movement of your hands etc)

A busy bridge that requires a lot of people working together. (I'd like to see to a chief of the boat who relates commands to the helm operatives.)

[An-Alteran]

The Victory class is described as a Heavy Destroyed, but to me it seems more like a Battleship/Carrier, intended to be escorted by several other ships, which can handle point defence. The way it was used in Crusade (all alone) just seems odd. The fact that it loses all power when firing the main gun strongly suggests that it's not supposed to be alone.
A Destroyer in the EarthForce fleet is the equivelent of a Battleship/Carrier.

The Warlock Destroyer is the most powerful purely EarthForce warship.

And it can go alone generally.
But I agree it was supposed to be escorted and the plague messed up the plans and stretched them to thin.

[Zalenka]

I was giving some more thought to why I didn't like the excalibur and I think it's that, despite its immense size it's got wasted space. The arms and the weapon just look too flimsy for an all powerful starship.

[nx01a]

Flimsy looking, but I'm sure the materials involved were quite strong. :P All that flimsy was to make the most powerful guns the younger races have possible.

[Zalenka]

Flimsy looking, but I'm sure the materials involved were quite strong. :P All that flimsy was to make the most powerful guns the younger races have possible.

They could of produced someting that looked better. The weapon is the most poweful ever produced but it's useless. One shot and if you haven't won you're dead.

[nx01a]

It does carry fighters. :P

[Ulkesh47]

Flimsy looking, but I'm sure the materials involved were quite strong. :P
Strong enough to deflect over 80% of energy directed at it, or something like that.

[Zalenka]

Strong enough to deflect over 80% of energy directed at it, or something like that.

Yes but it's made up of thin structures that don't look cool. If it was built like a Rhino it'd look great.

[nx01a]

Cool is a matter of perspective, I guess. Some people can't stand how the Whitestars look, but I love them. I also like how the Excalibur looks, though the Whitestars are still my faves... after Vorlon transports, of course.

[jds1982]

Yes but it's made up of thin structures that don't look cool. If it was built like a Rhino it'd look great.

Um have you ever seen the Valen (http://www.code7r.org/rangers/shipvalen.htm)?

[nx01a]

Ugly flying brick. They should just let Earth use Shadowtech like the Minbari use Vorlon tech. Our stuff would look so much better. Sleek and spikey.:P

[tetrion]

Ok, a few wrong assumptions here. The hull wasn't organic nor vorlon at all. It was a plasteel-crystalline alloy, plasteel is what EA use, and crystalline is Minbari... so it's a mix of the two. It was never mentioned in the show about having organic vorlon skin grafted on the ship, but it was rushed into service... so who knows.

The point defense systems (gattling plasma's were designed specifically for shooting down fighters only... not other carriers/cruisers etc. The main weapons (Minbari beams) were for that purpose.

The vorlon-type weapon was loosely designed on vorlon weapons. The only thing that was wrong with the design was the power requirements. I'd say the it was powered by a Minbari power supply. While being advanced, it's not as advanced as the Vorlons. Remember a weapon is only as effective as it's support systems... Thus the weapon could only use what was available... hence draining the system for 1 minute thereafter.

Remember, this ship was designed as one of the first for the ISA and its collaboration with the sharing of tech with other races. Also, most of the races are not going to give their best tech over, as like the Asguard a few seasons ago, they didn't want it to be used against them.

The tech wasn't almost perfected until say 10 years after, in the Valen class cruisers. I frankly didn't like the design of the Excalibur, as the long 'neck' on it would be the most obvious choice to attack. Thankfully they fixed that design flaw later on.

[Zalenka]

Um have you ever seen the Valen (http://www.code7r.org/rangers/shipvalen.htm)?

No, I haven't. I refuse to watch anymore B5 as they seemed to ruin the series with Crusade.

When I say rhino, What I mean is something that has the teeth and rawness of the Narn with the empyrealness of the Minbari and Vorlons.

Although I haven't seen that film, except that clip on You Tube, I do know from wikipedia that the writers created it to have a bad design.

[Garth Claw]

personally I felt that the whole design was pour and did not reflect the construction techniques of the races involved (Minbari and Earth.

The bridge was way to exposed and that neck was such a target.

and why incorperate a weapon system you could not effectivily use?

the fire arc on the ships main batteries, for its size, where way to restricted on a whitestar which had the manoeuvre-ability it made sense but it had to rely on the enemy either directly crossing its bow/stern or bring the guns to bear.

Over all, a pour design given the technology and information available

[maneth]

Yeah, I agree with Garth Claw here. It was pretty, but not well designed.

[Garth Claw]

Did any one have any thoughts on the ISA cruiser in 'The Lost Tales', to me it looked like cross between a whale and mantaray. Intresting design evolution ;-) esp. as the vessel in the Legend of the Rangers was so poor

[nx01a]

It continues the 'fishy'... ahem... aquatic theme of the Minbari cruisers. :D

[Cold Fuzz]

Did any one have any thoughts on the ISA cruiser in 'The Lost Tales', to me it looked like cross between a whale and mantaray. Intresting design evolution ;-) esp. as the vessel in the Legend of the Rangers was so poor

The new Minbari cruiser looked more compact and definitely more...deadly somehow, at least to me. The Minbari cruisers were deadly enough in design and appearance but the Valen's countenance gave something to the air of, "You think I'm easier to take down because I'm smaller? I'd love to see you try."

[locutes]

I would love to see a warlock fully covered in shadow armour.


And for the crossover fans here, what about a Bird of Prey (Klingon, 24th century) covered in the same armour!

[nx01a]

The Excalibur covered in Vorlon bio-armour would be sweet.

[Cold Fuzz]

I would love to see a warlock fully covered in shadow armour.

The Warlock was originally designed to be covered in Shadow bioarmor much like the Omega-X destroyers we saw near the end of the Earth civil war in 2261. Since the Warlocks weren't put into full production until the very end of Clark's reign of terror, the idea to use the armor couldn't pan out. With the armor, the Warlock was designed to be able to take on a Minbari cruiser. There's design and there's reality. Though the Warlock is my favorite EA ship, I very much doubt that it could take on a Minbari cruiser.


The Excalibur covered in Vorlon bio-armour would be sweet.

From what JMS has mentioned in the past, the Excalibur and the Victory were originally designed with Vorlon bioarmor and its adaptive defense system. Like the Vorlon-inspired main gun, the Alliance had some problems with the bioarmor so they went for a more conventional approach. The Excalibur's armor is virtually identical to a Minbari cruiser, except for the color of course. ;)

[locutes]

I think not using allot of shadow tech has got another reason too. FIrst of all, I think the Minbari would still not accept something like that. Also, the EA wants nothing to do with the former clark regime and third, there may be nothing of it left, destroyed by the Drak perhaps,

[Cold Fuzz]

I think not using allot of shadow tech has got another reason too. FIrst of all, I think the Minbari would still not accept something like that. Also, the EA wants nothing to do with the former clark regime and third, there may be nothing of it left, destroyed by the Drak perhaps,

You're correct that the Minbari and the rest of the Interstellar Alliance would never allow any major or minor power, even Earth, to access Shadow technology. But that doesn't mean it didn't happen.

It's true that EarthGov wanted to distance itself from Clark but there were plenty of underground factions inside and outside the government who wanted the technology nonetheless. At that point, it was about hardware, not politics. EarthForce's bioweapons division was doing all it could to get its hands on more advanced technology. This was talked about in Crusade itself as well as the Technomage novels.

In fact, Earth illegally using Shadow tech was supposed to be one of the major subplots for Crusade. That odd-looking Shadow-type vessel we saw destroy the EAS Cerberus--Matthew Gideon's old ship--was a failed EarthForce experiment in creating its own Shadow vessel. This was confirmed in the Technomage trilogy.

Furthermore, the first Warlocks off the production line (specifically Ivanova's, the EAS Titans) had a built-in Shadow device. JMS wrote a short story called "Hidden Agendas" which was directly about this problem.

[locutes]

well, these thigs are from novels and I am not familiar with those

[Republibot 3.0]

Ugly flying brick. They should just let Earth use Shadowtech like the Minbari use Vorlon tech. Our stuff would look so much better. Sleek and spikey.:P

I actually like the Valen, but then I have a thing for big clunky entirely-un-Treklike ships. My favorite starship of all time are the Omega Class Destroyers.

[Republibot 3.0]

You're correct that the Minbari and the rest of the Interstellar Alliance would never allow any major or minor power, even Earth, to access Shadow technology. But that doesn't mean it didn't happen.



Had it continued, the season finale of Crusade would have dealt with a hidden EA base and a covert Earthgov operation that was using Shadow Tech. And of course Giddeon himself was relying pretty heavily on one bit of Shadowtech that he didn't realize the nature of. (NOT the apocalypse box.)

I'm refering to Galen. It turns out the Technomages were created by the Shadows as weapons, the same way the Vorlons created the Telepaths. Earthgov wanted their tech, so the Technomages in B5 were leaving known space to get away from us.

[Republibot 3.0]

The Victory class is described as a Heavy Destroyed, but to me it seems more like a Battleship/Carrier, intended to be escorted by several other ships, which can handle point defence. The way it was used in Crusade (all alone) just seems odd. The fact that it loses all power when firing the main gun strongly suggests that it's not supposed to be alone.

JMS never really used naval terminology for his ships. His Heavy Cruisers were smaller than his Destroyers, his Destroyers were refered to at least once as "Carrier Groups." Really, only his Battleships fit the more-or-less standard definition of what a Battleship was.

I don't really think he knew what the names mean, or bothered to look it up. I think he just chose "Cruiser" because it cruises around, and "Destroyer" because it destroys things. Battleship is pretty self-evident, however. He's had similar trouble with military ranks (Confusing Naval and Army captains, Majors commanding ships, a Lt. as XO of a ship of the line, "Squadron Leader" as a rank, mention of 29-year-old colonels in the script for the aborted B5 theatrical film, etc). He's not really a Military guy, he's not Jerry Pournelle. I think he just likes to use the military as a rough framework, and doesn't really care about the details.

[Cold Fuzz]

Had it continued, the season finale of Crusade would have dealt with a hidden EA base and a covert Earthgov operation that was using Shadow Tech. And of course Giddeon himself was relying pretty heavily on one bit of Shadowtech that he didn't realize the nature of. (NOT the apocalypse box.)

I'm refering to Galen. It turns out the Technomages were created by the Shadows as weapons, the same way the Vorlons created the Telepaths. Earthgov wanted their tech, so the Technomages in B5 were leaving known space to get away from us.

True, the Technomages were leaving known space to get away from EarthGov, but primarily they were trying to get away from the Shadows and the Drakh. In the Technomage novels, the Shadows were really hell-bent on conscripting the Technomages to fight against everyone else. Galen and the rest of the bunch wouldn't have any of that of course. In fact, Galen himself played a big behind-the-scenes role with Sheridan's kamikaze attack on Z'ha'dum.


I actually like the Valen, but then I have a thing for big clunky entirely-un-Treklike ships. My favorite starship of all time are the Omega Class Destroyers.

My favorite warship in B5 is the Warlock Destroyer. :cameron:

[nx01a]

The Omega X destroyers were just beautiful! My favourite battle [and one I called from the moment I saw the White Star!] perhaps of the whole series: Earth ships with Shadow organic technology vs Minbari ships with Vorlon organic technology!:D

[Laxian of Earth]

I think that's what the Interstellar Alliance were trying to create in the first place - a Destroyer/Cruiser sized version of the Whitestar. I'm glad they were never covered with Shadow skin. Those modified Omegas sure were ugly! Yuck.

hey...IMHO they looked cool (and dangerous...)

as for the design...well they said they were not finished....maybe the organic hull was only like an outer armor (so it can still be added - like once planed for the warlock class destroyers)

as for entering an atmosphere: i would never build a shipt that can't (because their are situations where this could help you greatly)

as for weapons...hm...could have been better, yes.

greetings LAX

[locutes]

could any one here make a render or a model of a Warlock with Shadow armour and a Victory class model with ether Shadow or Vorlon armour, I'd love to see that

[Cold Fuzz]

could any one here make a render or a model of a Warlock with Shadow armour and a Victory class model with ether Shadow or Vorlon armour, I'd love to see that

I certainly didn't create these but they're definitely in the direction of what you're looking for:

http://archive.firstones.com/tp2b/earth_alliance/ea_warlock.jpg
http://s49.photobucket.com/albums/f252/CanisD/Shipyard/Drawings/Earth/ShadowWarlock.png
http://archive.firstones.com/tp2b/earth_alliance/ocdx_enigma.jpg

[locutes]

it is indeed darn close. I have always liked those stupid Earth Force ship designs, they look like flying bricks but they've got an elegance I cannot describe

[Cold Fuzz]

it is indeed darn close. I have always liked those stupid Earth Force ship designs, they look like flying bricks but they've got an elegance I cannot describe

They have a brute force elegance--kind of like a 12-gauge shotgun. Sure it's not nearly as precise as an AR-15 or a bolt action rifle but it's big, bad, and will blow you into the middle of next week. :lol:

[Republibot 3.0]

Agreed. The Omega Class are my absolute favorite starships, ever.