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View Full Version : wormholes, blackholes, projecting gravity, time dilation and quantum gravity



terraatlantus
October 31st, 2004, 05:07 PM
if that thread title doesn't scare away all except the most die hard science fiction lovers nothing will :)

I'm curious why the black hole caused the event horizon to be dragged backwards like during the initial vortex. also why they chose (and could plausibly claim) that time dilations could happen in advance of gravity fields? and how mass on the other side of a wormhole could transmit gravity across it? we never saw such fascinating subject treated again on the show.

indeed, if I must choose a single show from sg1 that shows science fiction at its' best - this was the show.

comments? speculation?

MartoufMarty
October 31st, 2004, 05:09 PM
Because it's special... No!

A Wizard did it!

... Gravity. Big pain in the ass. Plain and simple, gravity. Black hole cause of alot of that...

*shrug*

I'd go with the Wizard did it.

yoojoo
October 31st, 2004, 05:12 PM
if that thread title doesn't scare away all except the most die hard science fiction lovers nothing will :)

I'm curious why the black hole caused the event horizon to be dragged backwards like during the initial vortex. also why they chose (and could plausibly claim) that time dilations could happen in advance of gravity fields? and how mass on the other side of a wormhole could transmit gravity across it? we never saw such fascinating subject treated again on the show.

indeed, if I must choose a single show from sg1 that shows science fiction at its' best - this was the show.

comments? speculation?
True... that was pure sci fi and i loved it!! Great ep!!unfortunatley, i failed physics in high school so i can't give you any comments or speculation on that part. My brain hurts now from just reading that post!! :p

I will go find some science peeps who might be able to help you...... i know theres some floating around here somewhere....

yoojoo
October 31st, 2004, 05:16 PM
hey man.......why is your rep square black?!?!? thats kinda creepy.....lets make this thread about the weirdness of the black block!! :p lol....just kidding

and all that stuff happens because GRAVITY IS THE DEVIL!!! :P

MartoufMarty
October 31st, 2004, 05:17 PM
hey man.......why is your rep square black?!?!? thats kinda creepy.....lets make this thread about the weirdness of the black block!! :p lol....just kidding

and all that stuff happens because GRAVITY IS THE DEVIL!!! :P
The reputation block is black when the person has their reputation blocks disabled because they don't want everyone else to see what their reputation level is.

terraatlantus
October 31st, 2004, 05:21 PM
The reputation block is black when the person has their reputation blocks disabled because they don't want everyone else to see what their reputation level is.


well, if you're curious. It was -19 awhile ago then -13 then -11 then -16.
attention all negs
remember misbehaving is in the eye of the tyrant

*produces a Roswell gray*

this my Asgard

please kiss my Asgard ;) :p

greytop
October 31st, 2004, 05:47 PM
if that thread title doesn't scare away all except the most die hard science fiction lovers nothing will :)

Yes, it is a very long thread title. :) :D

That was a good who episode.

Gothann
October 31st, 2004, 05:58 PM
As for the time dilation, you'll notice how science theorizes that time slows down near a black hole, even though it is still too far away to affect you with considerable gravity effect.

Though it's questionable as to the ratio of the time dilation in the episode in relation to how far away the Stargate actually is from the black hole, if you compare with *sigh* Andromeda, the Andromeda Ascendant is stuck a few hundred kilometers from the black hole when it stands in "orbit" for 300 years, though affecting everyone within the Andromeda, making them feel that only about a second passed.

So yeah, time dilation is a very fickle thing when talking about its range and its ratio.

XToDaZ
October 31st, 2004, 06:08 PM
if that thread title doesn't scare away all except the most die hard science fiction lovers nothing will :)

I'm curious why the black hole caused the event horizon to be dragged backwards like during the initial vortex. also why they chose (and could plausibly claim) that time dilations could happen in advance of gravity fields? and how mass on the other side of a wormhole could transmit gravity across it? we never saw such fascinating subject treated again on the show.

indeed, if I must choose a single show from sg1 that shows science fiction at its' best - this was the show.

comments? speculation?Well, the only reason I can think of is just Stargate physics ... those are just unreal :)
If wormwholes would exist in real life :
- they would be transparent in the first place (you should see through them to the other side)
- they wouldn't travel in the third dimension, but would use a double fourth dimensional drag and drop effect.
- there would be no desintegration going on
- they'd be 2-way

Stargate chose to have a blue one-way wormhole to make it easier to write stories. Otherwisely the exploring would be unnecessary, they could be killed without stepping through instantly while dialing odd worlds because of poison, heat, radiation and so on.
That vortex thing spinning backwards was just meant to give a visual effect of the gravitational field going through the stargate, so that viewers kan see it's coming through. The show dismisses the fact that the space behind the event horizon has nothing to do with the wormhole, and therefore it's very odd that the event horizon would be pulled backwards ... as there is nothing but air behind it.

Why the time dillations advanced the gravitational field ? Well, it's a nice addy to the show, isn't ? I could not imagine how that would be possible in real time, really.

terraatlantus
October 31st, 2004, 06:16 PM
Though it's questionable as to the ratio of the time dilation in the episode in relation to how far away the Stargate actually is from the black hole, if you compare with *sigh* Andromeda, the Andromeda Ascendant is stuck a few hundred kilometers from the black hole when it stands in "orbit" for 300 years, though affecting everyone within the Andromeda, making them feel that only about a second passed.

So yeah, time dilation is a very fickle thing when talking about its range and its ratio.


why is andromeda so lame? their special effects are good, their stories suck. Their dialogue embarasses me. If it wasn't for the the chick that plays andromeda I wouldn't even watch occassionally (usually with the sound off or low) :)

and the sun that became a black hole must be massive so the planet must've been very far away to sustain life at one point. even so time dilation relates to relative motion doesn't it? and the wormhole bypasses relativity doesn't it?

Madeleine
October 31st, 2004, 09:39 PM
I'm curious why the black hole caused the event horizon to be dragged backwards like during the initial vortex.

Cos it looked pretty. Cos along with the rotating effect of the event horizon it gave an eerie sort of feeling - something strange had been happening with the gate, and it wasn't good and no one could turn it off, and then the event horizon starts looking wrong. It's not scary like John Hurt's chestburster, it's scary on a totally different level, cos *we* aren't meant to be scared by it but we're meant to see that the SGC would see that and get a bit freaked that this great big powerful alien thingy is not only unswitchoffable but doing weird stuff to boot.


also why they chose (and could plausibly claim) that time dilations could happen in advance of gravity fields? and how mass on the other side of a wormhole could transmit gravity across it?

There'd never been any indication of parity of gravity between the two sides of the wormhole, but time had always been constant between one side of the wormhole and the other. Perhaps the way the wormhole 'carries' time as opposed to how it carries gravity is like how it can allow radio signals through but not visible light. I don't know, I can't be very scientific about it cos it doesn't seem to make sense. But then an awful lot of RL stuff has seemed at first to contradict science-as-we-know it. (Like, for a while Astronomers were convinced that there were discrepancies in the orbit of Mercury that could only be explained by the presence of a planet with a smaller orbit. They spent years hunting in the skies for 'Hyperion' but never found it. Thing is, they were using Newton's Laws at the time, laws which worked pretty much perfectly except when one of the two bodies is really massive and really close to the other, when only Einstein's revised version of Newton can fit the facts.)


we never saw such fascinating subject treated again on the show.

indeed, if I must choose a single show from sg1 that shows science fiction at its' best - this was the show.

I totally agree that this was a fascinating idea. MoT was a Great Episode for many reasons, not least because it knew exactly when to use Proper Science, exactly when to speculate stuff that sounds plausible, and exactly when to be a bit unscientific for the sake of dramatic tension.

Gregorius
November 1st, 2004, 04:25 AM
I'm curious why the black hole caused the event horizon to be dragged backwards like during the initial vortex.

Well the event horizon is a mass and since black holes have enormous gravity, it could attract the event horizon towards it.


and how mass on the other side of a wormhole could transmit gravity across it?

In theory the wormhole could've transmitted gravitons which would've caused an increase in gravity, this would be the most likely answer if it wasn't for the fact that gravitons are still to be proven to exist. But I guess in Stargate they just exist :P

Tok'Ra Hostess
November 1st, 2004, 07:22 AM
[QUOTE=terraatlantus]if that thread title doesn't scare away all except the most die hard science fiction lovers nothing will :)

Hee hee hee :D


I'm curious why the black hole caused the event horizon to be dragged backwards like during the initial vortex.

Might the energy-to-matter conversion process on the BH side of the Gate have broken down as a result of direct contact with the gravitational forces? (If so, then Col. Cromwell would have exited the Gate as energy rather than matter. ). Was the vortex on the Earth-side Gate a way of showing viewers that the Gate's conversion "room" was also breaking apart?

No... now that I think about it, if the conversion area was destroyed then Cromwell's mass should have been enough to collapse the wormhole altogether.


also why they chose (and could plausibly claim) that time dilations could happen in advance of gravity fields?

Sam did make the disclaimer that... "Now according to everything I thought I knew about relativity that is just not possible."
and... "they're proceeding with a plan that makes assumptions about gravity and space-time with absolutely no regard for the fact that it completely contradicts our observations."

So she was basicly saying that Narim had been right after all; that physics as we know it falls short of reality. :p

But that's one of the things I used to love about the series; the Tauri moved in circles that they knew were largely beyond their understanding yet they strove to understand. Unfortunately, they grew out of that(I know; everybody grows up) and now they are pretty much masters of the universe, but with other species' stuff. :(

In this way they have become like the Goa'uld.



we never saw such fascinating subject treated again on the show.

<sigh> Too true. :(


indeed, if I must choose a single show from sg1 that shows science fiction at its' best - this was the show.

Yes. MoT gets my vote, too.

Tok'Ra Hostess
November 1st, 2004, 07:34 AM
[QUOTE]If wormwholes would exist in real life :
- they would be transparent in the first place (you should see through them to the other side)
- they wouldn't travel in the third dimension, but would use a double fourth dimensional drag and drop effect.
- there would be no desintegration going on
- they'd be 2-way


My understanding of wormhole theory is admittedly dated (circa Stephen Hawkins' Brief History of Time) but I thought that you wouldn't be able to see the other side of a wormhole or have two-way traffic except for radio signals because of the singularity which is not the mouth of the hole but the smallest point somewhere inside it.



Why the time dillations advanced the gravitational field ? Well, it's a nice addy to the show, isn't ? I could not imagine how that would be possible in real time, really.

Did the time dilations advance the field? Or did the Gate, in order to compensate for the pull by trying to form a protective bubble around itself?

puddlejumper747
November 1st, 2004, 07:56 AM
if that thread title doesn't scare away all except the most die hard science fiction lovers nothing will :)
LOL :D

Indeed, if I must choose a single show from sg1 that shows science fiction at its' best - this was the show.
Yep. Definitely. :)

aschen
November 1st, 2004, 08:10 AM
I'm curious why the black hole caused the event horizon to be dragged backwards like during the initial vortex.
The event horizon is basically a contained are of energy, where matter is dematerialized and rematerialized, right? In real science, we have already bent light using gravity (http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/9609043). Light is nothing more than a certain KIND of energy, so would an event horizon really be that far of a stretch?


also why they chose (and could plausibly claim) that time dilations could happen in advance of gravity fields?
It's science ficiton. :)


and how mass on the other side of a wormhole could transmit gravity across it? we never saw such fascinating subject treated again on the show.
Thus far we have seen someone jumping through the stargate and retaining their velocity, yes? Who's to say gravity is so different?

terraatlantus
November 1st, 2004, 08:12 PM
The event horizon is basically a contained are of energy, where matter is dematerialized and rematerialized, right? In real science, we have already bent light using gravity (http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/9609043). Light is nothing more than a certain KIND of energy, so would an event horizon really be that far of a stretch?


It's science ficiton. :)


Thus far we have seen someone jumping through the stargate and retaining their velocity, yes? Who's to say gravity is so different?


but the event horizon would project the gravitons away from it would it not? so would not the event horizon be dragged towards the control room?

_Owen_
March 26th, 2005, 10:41 AM
the blackhole pulled the event horizon back because blackholes suck everything in, matter, light, all forms of energy, the event horizon is energy, it has been proven that time dialates inside black holes, and the gravity was transmitted through the gate because it was transmited through the wormhole like energy

Hywel
March 26th, 2005, 10:50 AM
- there would be no desintegration going on

That's what I thought - think Star Trek DS9. But when I thought about it, isn't it possible that the Ancients made the design choice to have the Stargate disintigrate you into energy in order to transmit it? Maybe this would mean the wormhole rquires much less energy, as it would only need to be big enough to transmit energy through it, as opposed to whole objects. So it's the Stargate device itself that disintigrates you, not the fact you're travelling through a wormhole.

_Owen_
March 26th, 2005, 11:46 AM
That's what I thought - think Star Trek DS9. But when I thought about it, isn't it possible that the Ancients made the design choice to have the Stargate disintigrate you into energy in order to transmit it? Maybe this would mean the wormhole rquires much less energy, as it would only need to be big enough to transmit energy through it, as opposed to whole objects. So it's the Stargate device itself that disintigrates you, not the fact you're travelling through a wormhole.
the wormhole in ds9 is a natural wormhole, it is true that with a natural wormhole you would not dematerialize because the event horizon on a natural wormhole is just basically the door into the wormhole, on the stargate the event horizon dematrerializes you sothat you can travel through it without a ship, you are dematerialized so that you are not exposed to the effects of the vacum of space, and can travel at greater speeds as energy

gatebuster64
June 17th, 2006, 06:16 PM
Well the event horizon is a mass and since black holes have enormous gravity, it could attract the event horizon towards it.



In theory the wormhole could've transmitted gravitons which would've caused an increase in gravity, this would be the most likely answer if it wasn't for the fact that gravitons are still to be proven to exist. But I guess in Stargate they just exist :P
if gravity were to pull the event horizon then it would be pulled through the wormhole, not to the back of the room. in order to figure out why the time dilation preceeds the gravity you first need to know why gravity dilates time.

for those who want to know the ratio between amount that time is dilated and gravity it is: R=square root(1-[2GM/(RC^2)]) where R is the ratio of dilated time to standard time, G is the gravitational constant, M is the mass of the body distorting time, R is the distance from that body, and C is the speed of light

p.s. to this date i don't know why gravity distorts time but i'm working on it

gatebuster64
June 18th, 2006, 09:47 AM
did my previous post scare everyone from this thread?:eek::jack_new_anime05::samanime15::vala09::weiranime33:

Jimbo-DR
June 19th, 2006, 02:44 PM
Well, the only reason I can think of is just Stargate physics ... those are just unreal :)
If wormwholes would exist in real life :
- they would be transparent in the first place (you should see through them to the other side)
- they wouldn't travel in the third dimension, but would use a double fourth dimensional drag and drop effect.
- there would be no desintegration going on
- they'd be 2-way

Stargate chose to have a blue one-way wormhole to make it easier to write stories. Otherwisely the exploring would be unnecessary, they could be killed without stepping through instantly while dialing odd worlds because of poison, heat, radiation and so on.
That vortex thing spinning backwards was just meant to give a visual effect of the gravitational field going through the stargate, so that viewers kan see it's coming through. The show dismisses the fact that the space behind the event horizon has nothing to do with the wormhole, and therefore it's very odd that the event horizon would be pulled backwards ... as there is nothing but air behind it.

Why the time dillations advanced the gravitational field ? Well, it's a nice addy to the show, isn't ? I could not imagine how that would be possible in real time, really.

Wormholes are so far beyond our science that you could only be speculating as much as anyone else on here is. You can't possibly no for sure anything about wormholes or we would be much farther along to creating one than we are right now.

Jarnin
June 19th, 2006, 05:32 PM
You can't possibly no for sure anything about wormholes or we would be much farther along to creating one than we are right now.
You apparently don't understand the difference between research and applied science. Research figures out how something occurs. Applied science tries to make that occurance happen when we want it to.

We know how to make wormholes; the problem isn't knowing how, the problem is the coming up with the ingredients you need in order to make one.

Wormholes are thought to occur naturally in the universe, but they don't stay open for very long; basically they close up right after they form. In order to keep one 'open', you'd have to offset the wormhole's tendacy to slam shut, and the only way known to do that is by pumping something called 'negative mass' into it. We don't even know if there is such a thing as negative mass at this point in time, as it's never been observed.

The funny thing is that if negative mass exists, then we could make things like inertial dampeners. Because negative mass would offset mass, if you have a ship that has a mass of 1 million metric tons, and you add 1 million metric tons of negative mass, your ship would have an average mass of zero. That means you could accelerate to the speed of light, which is currently impossible for anything that has mass.

SG-1ssm
June 19th, 2006, 05:44 PM
True... that was pure sci fi and i loved it!! Great ep!!unfortunatley, i failed physics in high school so i can't give you any comments or speculation on that part. My brain hurts now from just reading that post!! :p

I will go find some science peeps who might be able to help you...... i know theres some floating around here somewhere....

Forunitally, I got an A in physics, and might be able to shed some light on the situation.

I'm guessing the time dialation might might accually be for if you were being sucked into the blackhole, and as you go faster and faster time (from your perspective) slows down.

And the black hole its self has a lot of mass, and that's what makes the gavity that pulls you in.

gatebuster64
June 19th, 2006, 06:05 PM
Forunitally, I got an A in physics, and might be able to shed some light on the situation.

I'm guessing the time dialation might might accually be for if you were being sucked into the blackhole, and as you go faster and faster time (from your perspective) slows down.

And the black hole its self has a lot of mass, and that's what makes the gavity that pulls you in. atomic clocks ran slower at sea level than at mountain peaks and they were stationary in respect to Earth


The Laws of Thermodynamics are like a game. Here are the rules.
1. You can't win
2. You can't break even
3. You can't quit I've read that in a book sometime ago:
1. matter can't be created from nothing so no net profit
2. entropy in the universe always increases so you always lose
3. absolute zero can't be reached, if it could you wouldn't have to wory about entropy

Avatar28
June 20th, 2006, 12:03 AM
Okay, a couple of points.

The reason the ancients chose to go with the method they did for the stargates, de/rematerialization, is because the wormhole is most likely microscopic in size. In order to have a wormhole actually big enough to transmit something you would need an insane amount of energy and a gate the size of the earth's orbit or something. Talk about your super gates! It may not have been quite that big, but it was really REALLY big. By using a microscopic wormhole the ancients can send the energy through along with your pattern and just reconstruct it on the other end.

wanderingbynight
June 21st, 2006, 10:37 PM
I was listening to an article on the radio today (well, now yesterday i guess) and they were talking about a star and a black hole that are orbiting eachother and why the black hole didn't eat the star. Apparently it was recently discovered that blackholes have a magnetic field (magnets!) that draws some matter towards them so it isn't just gravity alone. This is why some gases were drawn into the hole and some weren't.

I don't really know if this answers anything on this thread and I'm so tired right now i can't tell if it makes any sense the way i typed it up:o , but i just thought it was intiresting. If this looks like giberish in the morning I'll edit.