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Demerzel
March 12th, 2008, 10:17 PM
The more I think about The Last Man, the more I realise how the writers think too much about themselves.

Malozzi said we'd be ripping our hair off when The Last Man ended. All he found for an ending was to collapse a building on top of a team we know will all survive? What kind of suspense is that?

Then tonight I re-watched the last episode of season 3 of Battlestar Galactica. The very last scene, the space combat scene in the nebula. And how the season ends. Now THAT's a HELL of a suspense, that you would literally kill to see the next episode. Whoever saw it knows what I mean and how incredibly intense it was, visually, musically and emotionally. A scene that makes you shiver, tremble and keeps you on the edge of your seat. And nobody's in any danger of dying. Sort of.

So, for TPTB, please learn from much better writers and learn how to end your seasons so the people will beg for the next.

TLM was a good episode, overall. The end was bad, very bad. We know they'll survive, we know they'll find Teyla alive. There is no mystery and no suspense. I keep hoping Atlantis will get better, and it simply doesn't. I stopped caring and I watch it only because Stargate has been one of my passions for 10 years.

It used to be my absolute favorite show, and now I enjoy House more than SG. That's kinda sad. Can't wait for season 4 of BSG, for real sci-fi.

/rant off

Col.Foley
March 12th, 2008, 10:34 PM
The more I think about The Last Man, the more I realise how the writers think too much about themselves.

Malozzi said we'd be ripping our hair off when The Last Man ended. All he found for an ending was to collapse a building on top of a team we know will all survive? What kind of suspense is that?

Then tonight I re-watched the last episode of season 3 of Battlestar Galactica. The very last scene, the space combat scene in the nebula. And how the season ends. Now THAT's a HELL of a suspense, that you would literally kill to see the next episode. Whoever saw it knows what I mean and how incredibly intense it was, visually, musically and emotionally. A scene that makes you shiver, tremble and keeps you on the edge of your seat. And nobody's in any danger of dying. Sort of.

So, for TPTB, please learn from much better writers and learn how to end your seasons so the people will beg for the next.

TLM was a good episode, overall. The end was bad, very bad. We know they'll survive, we know they'll find Teyla alive. There is no mystery and no suspense. I keep hoping Atlantis will get better, and it simply doesn't. I stopped caring and I watch it only because Stargate has been one of my passions for 10 years.

It used to be my absolute favorite show, and now I enjoy House more than SG. That's kinda sad. Can't wait for season 4 of BSG, for real sci-fi.

/rant off
Yes....but everyone will likely survive that Galacitica icident, at least at first, I agree, that was suspense, and I agree, the SG actual cliff hanger could have been handled differently, but, TLM was a killer episode, in a great season, for me anyway. I am begging for the season and I am more into gate then I have been in, well, actually, not that long ago.

And......Galactica to me is not Sci-fi, it is a space drama, a character show. There is very little in the way of advanced technologies, beyond the ftl. I am not saying Galactica is bad, it is alright. I greatly prefer gate, and any season of gate. I am merely pointing out that SG and Galactica are two completly different shows. One focuses on drama and story, almost religiously, while the other one has the mix of drama, story, character, action, and Sci-Fi.

Also, yes, they will probably survive this. But when watching a show, for the first time, I personally do not look at it like I am predicting like I know what will happen......I watch it for entertainment....then I consider what will happen next, what the ramifications will be. I go with the flow during the episode, as a result I was satisfied with the cliff hanger, and probably more satisfied with a lot of stuff more then your common fan, or so it seems.

PG15
March 12th, 2008, 10:42 PM
Do you want them to NOT survive this?

I saw Crossroads. The music was nice, and I'll admit it was pretty crazy and it was a great cliffhanger. But, to do that, they turned 4 of their characters into their enemies, and brought back a character that they killed off 3 episodes ago. For BSG, which is ending after this year, and whose entire goal is to reach Earth and that's it, it made sense.

But, for SGA, which still has many years left (or at least, they're not planning to end it), and which is really an action adventure show with no clear end point, drastic changes like this only suffice to piss off fans even more than they are already. I really don't think you can compare BSG and SGA in this respect.

KindlyKeller
March 12th, 2008, 11:37 PM
I think Battlestar Galactica is a good show. I watch it occasionally and generally enjoy it, but ironically enough, I find the characters a lot less appealing than those in the Stargate franchise, which is supposed to be BA's calling card. But that's just a personal preference, I guess.

Bray
March 13th, 2008, 02:24 AM
Not everyone is gauranteed to survive, especially Major Lorne and his team, someone will die that's for sure...I mean a building collapsed on them!

GoSpikey
March 13th, 2008, 03:22 AM
Not everyone is gauranteed to survive, especially Major Lorne and his team, someone will die that's for sure...I mean a building collapsed on them!

SGA-1 and Major Lorne will be fine, as

Kavan is already in lots of season 5 eps...

The rest of his team will probably be dead, I mean, did we even name them?

Bray
March 13th, 2008, 03:25 AM
Yeah Lorne will probably survive but I doubt his nameless team will :D They never stood a chance. Like the guys wearing red in Star Trek!!

reddevil18
March 13th, 2008, 05:18 AM
Do you want them to NOT survive this?

I saw Crossroads. The music was nice, and I'll admit it was pretty crazy and it was a great cliffhanger. But, to do that, they turned 4 of their characters into their enemies, and brought back a character that they killed off 3 episodes ago. For BSG, which is ending after this year, and whose entire goal is to reach Earth and that's it, it made sense.

But, for SGA, which still has many years left (or at least, they're not planning to end it), and which is really an action adventure show with no clear end point, drastic changes like this only suffice to piss off fans even more than they are already. I really don't think you can compare BSG and SGA in this respect.I completely agree with that. Great way of putting it.
I love BSG, but I don't watch it for my weekly dose of action/sci-fi, because I would be left unsatisfied almost each time.

Demerzel
March 13th, 2008, 07:12 AM
I agree with most that has been said.

And what I meant was, of course I want them to survive. But I wish it had been a different kind of cliff hanger. Like, a major story-related revelation, the return of an old foe, or you know, a story twist that doesn't involve a situation to which we already know the solution.

Like some might have realised after some of my posts about the sun going red giant in TLM, I'm an astronomer at heart, and I prefer a good story to a lot of mindless action. That's why I enjoyed how the characters died in the AU in TLM, and also why I now prefer BSG.

They simply don't kill the right characters, in Atlantis. I'm anti-Teyla, so I wouldn't mind if she died. Same for Keller. But why Weir? Did they kill Hammond at the end of SG1 season 3? Landry never quite did as good a job as Hammond, who was an amazing leader, as was Weir. I'll never quite understand that decision, like I will never understand why they'd put weasel man at the head of Atlantis in S5. The writing in S1-2 was better and they had good stories.

It reminds me of when I used to DM D&D games. I would get carried away in my epic and complicated plots, think I was doing great and interesting stuff, and players would lose interest. I'm at this point now, and believe me when I say that I enjoyed many episodes that were called crap, simply because I've been a huge fan of Stargate ever since the movie and the pilots for SG1.

Like I mentionned, TLM was a strong episode, up until the end. That building thing was a weak cliff hanger, one I didn't care for and I wasn't excited or impressed. I mean there is SO many things that could have happened! Imagine how strong Michael is now? Why not a face-to-face with the team, they get their asses kicked by him in an epic fight, and then they get jailed and the S&R team needs to find em before they're experimented upon. That would have been okay, cause simple experiments might have been possible, compared to the whole team dying. See what I mean? And did I mention the CGI for the building was very poor? Collapsed way too fast and in a way you expect a small replica of the building to collapse.

So looking back, even with all its plotholes, Midway was the best episode of the season, followed by BAMSR. Rest, could have done without.

Demerzel
March 13th, 2008, 07:25 AM
Do you want them to NOT survive this?

I saw Crossroads. The music was nice, and I'll admit it was pretty crazy and it was a great cliffhanger. But, to do that, they turned 4 of their characters into their enemies, and brought back a character that they killed off 3 episodes ago. For BSG, which is ending after this year, and whose entire goal is to reach Earth and that's it, it made sense.

But, for SGA, which still has many years left (or at least, they're not planning to end it), and which is really an action adventure show with no clear end point, drastic changes like this only suffice to piss off fans even more than they are already. I really don't think you can compare BSG and SGA in this respect.

If you know BSG well, you'd know that Cylons are not all enemies. Athena is one, and she's one of their most important people. The good Six has helped more than most people in the show as well. Despite being Cylons, I doubt that the Last Four are enemies. But what I meant wasn't that part of the story, it was the whole nebula thing and one of my fav characters coming back after being thought to be dead. Just the music gives me shivers every time I watch the episode.

And nobody knows if Atlantis will have a sixth season. We barely got a fifth and considering the ratings and all, I have my doubts that there will be another season. That the storylines end or not doesn't matter, they shut off SG1 despite being in the middle of a major storyline.

Briangate78
March 13th, 2008, 07:41 AM
I guess you did not see episodes like Sunday, Doppleganger, The Kindred Pt 1 and BAMSR. All had surprises in them, now if spoilers were not given all of them would be very suspensful. Sadly posting on a major spoiler forum and watching the promo gives away spoilers. It takes away the suspense and the QUALITY and CREATIVE writing, imo.

As per the Season 3 finale of BSG, it was not a surprise for me since the major spoiler was leaked. ;)

Real SCI FI? Um ok, whatever. :S

Briangate78
March 13th, 2008, 07:48 AM
And nobody knows if Atlantis will have a sixth season. We barely got a fifth and considering the ratings and all, I have my doubts that there will be another season. That the storylines end or not doesn't matter, they shut off SG1 despite being in the middle of a major storyline.

Actually the viewers from last season have at least been maintained for the 2nd half of this season, and there is a very good chance they increased from last year.

Edit to add: The 2nd half is what SCI FI is most concerned with when it comes to the renewal decision, along with the first couple eps of Season 5.

GoSpikey
March 13th, 2008, 01:43 PM
I'm anti-Teyla, so I wouldn't mind if she died.

Can't kill Teyla. She's the girl with the Wraithy powers. I at least hope they'll be increased somewhat in the next season, to have some change. They should just write her better.


Like I mentionned, TLM was a strong episode, up until the end.

And did I mention the CGI for the building was very poor? Collapsed way too fast and in a way you expect a small replica of the building to collapse.

The CGI was TERRIBLE! It didn't even look closely like a real building collapsing! No more budget left? They'd better clean it up for the DVD... Not likely, right?

KindlyKeller
March 13th, 2008, 01:56 PM
They simply don't kill the right characters, in Atlantis.

I think they killed exactly the right characters. Weir brought very little to the table and Beckett, while fairly likable, wasn't missed by me in the slightest. So, I don't think it's a "simple" matter at all. For every "Save Elizabeth Weir" fan, I think there's a "I never really liked her" fan.

BubblingOverWithIdeas
March 13th, 2008, 02:58 PM
The CGI was TERRIBLE! It didn't even look closely like a real building collapsing! No more budget left? They'd better clean it up for the DVD... Not likely, right?

The collapse was so small looking that I was surprised by the idea that it killed even a single person. I was just expecting them to have to get out of rubble and dust next season, not that anyone would die. On relection, I guess a few redshirts will.

I agree that the end of Crossroads, Part II was more suspenseful and exciting in the extreme than the end of 'The Last Man', but to be charitable, Galactica is aimed towards a definite conclusion and Atlantis is going to at least try to run as long as possible.

Demerzel
March 13th, 2008, 04:05 PM
The collapse was so small looking that I was surprised by the idea that it killed even a single person. I was just expecting them to have to get out of rubble and dust next season, not that anyone would die. On relection, I guess a few redshirts will.

I agree that the end of Crossroads, Part II was more suspenseful and exciting in the extreme than the end of 'The Last Man', but to be charitable, Galactica is aimed towards a definite conclusion and Atlantis is going to at least try to run as long as possible.

Well put, I can't find anything to add to that.

Demerzel
March 13th, 2008, 04:06 PM
I think they killed exactly the right characters. Weir brought very little to the table and Beckett, while fairly likable, wasn't missed by me in the slightest. So, I don't think it's a "simple" matter at all. For every "Save Elizabeth Weir" fan, I think there's a "I never really liked her" fan.

Weir was a good leader, if maybe too close to her subordinates. But that's what gave the show a feeling of family.

You're okay with killing Beckett? Don't blame me if you come back from work tomorrow and find your house torched by fans. :P

Carter is useless as leader. She had one shining moment and it was when she told Ellis to STFU.

Woolsey? I'm not even saying anything about THAT. ~Shoots himself with a stunner.~

PG15
March 13th, 2008, 04:57 PM
But what I meant wasn't that part of the story, it was the whole nebula thing and one of my fav characters coming back after being thought to be dead. Just the music gives me shivers every time I watch the episode.

I'm sure the Beckett fans felt the same way about Kindred I (those who didn't get spoiled before hand, anyway). ;)


And nobody knows if Atlantis will have a sixth season. We barely got a fifth and considering the ratings and all, I have my doubts that there will be another season. That the storylines end or not doesn't matter, they shut off SG1 despite being in the middle of a major storyline.

I don't see how that has to do with anything. Point is, BSG is planned to be over, and thus they can do whatever they want with their characters because they won't be on the air for much longer. We don't know how long SGA will last, so they can't fool around with the characters too much, or else they'll end up paying for it down the line.

KindlyKeller
March 13th, 2008, 06:24 PM
Weir was a good leader, if maybe too close to her subordinates. But that's what gave the show a feeling of family.

You're okay with killing Beckett? Don't blame me if you come back from work tomorrow and find your house torched by fans. :P

Carter is useless as leader. She had one shining moment and it was when she told Ellis to STFU.

Woolsey? I'm not even saying anything about THAT. ~Shoots himself with a stunner.~

I've preferred Carter because she has behaved with far less pomposity than Weir did. I always thought she was a character that really wanted to be strong, but wasn't. She tried too hard and it made her look silly. I kind of compare her to Teyla, who IS strong and together, but doesn't feel the need to try to convince you of it every time she speaks.

Regarding Beckett, lol, I know! They take their Beckett very seriously. My position is: I don't blame them for being broken up about him, because I'd feel the same way if McKay, Shep, or Keller disappeared from the show. But from a personal perspective, I didn't miss Beckett at all; I was actually a tiny bit glad when he left. Plus, it set up Kindred II, where Paul delivered easily his best performance of the series.

Regarding Woolsey, we'll have to wait and see. It could create interesting tension, but I think they'll take it way too quickly in the Woolsey-does-something-good-and-earns-mutual-respect-with-Shep-or-Rodney direction.

Mitchell82
March 13th, 2008, 06:31 PM
The more I think about The Last Man, the more I realise how the writers think too much about themselves.

Malozzi said we'd be ripping our hair off when The Last Man ended. All he found for an ending was to collapse a building on top of a team we know will all survive? What kind of suspense is that?
Well I know I was. I screamed "Holy ****!" Right at the end. They truly did a great job.


Then tonight I re-watched the last episode of season 3 of Battlestar Galactica. The very last scene, the space combat scene in the nebula. And how the season ends. Now THAT's a HELL of a suspense, that you would literally kill to see the next episode. Whoever saw it knows what I mean and how incredibly intense it was, visually, musically and emotionally. A scene that makes you shiver, tremble and keeps you on the edge of your seat. And nobody's in any danger of dying. Sort of.
I really can't accurately comment since I gave up on BSG around mid season 3, however in the 2 1/2 years I watched not once did I ever get a feeling of "OMG We are so screwed" like I did here. And the threat of loss of a main character or dare I say actual loss adds to the drama.


So, for TPTB, please learn from much better writers and learn how to end your seasons so the people will beg for the next.
ROTFLMAO! Better writers?!!! Well then they bettter not look at BSG's writers.


TLM was a good episode, overall. The end was bad, very bad. We know they'll survive, we know they'll find Teyla alive. There is no mystery and no suspense. I keep hoping Atlantis will get better, and it simply doesn't. I stopped caring and I watch it only because Stargate has been one of my passions for 10 years.
Maybe that's your problem you don't care for the characters because the end was very dramatic and well done.


It used to be my absolute favorite show, and now I enjoy House more than SG. That's kinda sad. Can't wait for season 4 of BSG, for real sci-fi.

/rant off

I love house but BSG real scifi? Not in my eyes unless you mean the original.

Demerzel
March 13th, 2008, 07:24 PM
Well I know I was. I screamed "Holy ****!" Right at the end. They truly did a great job.


I really can't accurately comment since I gave up on BSG around mid season 3, however in the 2 1/2 years I watched not once did I ever get a feeling of "OMG We are so screwed" like I did here. And the threat of loss of a main character or dare I say actual loss adds to the drama.


ROTFLMAO! Better writers?!!! Well then they bettter not look at BSG's writers.


Maybe that's your problem you don't care for the characters because the end was very dramatic and well done.



I love house but BSG real scifi? Not in my eyes unless you mean the original.


BSG is military/character-driven, but it's sci-fi nonetheless. At least in BSG, the characters are not one-sided and they actually change, have flaws and we can relate to more than one of em. In SG? John, the super hero who never fails and who lays every woman in Pegasus, McKay, the super genius who knows everything, Teyla, the warrior woman who is so cliche and who dramatically was born without a personality, and Ronon, who...well...I love Ronon.

Sorry, but. The end was very dramatic? An atrociously poorly made CGI sequence of a building collapsing on top of a team we know will survive for the next season? Oh how dramatic! John flying a nuke-equipped jumper into a hive ship at the end of season one was more dramatic and felt less forced. I know everyone has tastes and all, but here I am seriously questionning yours.

If you saw the last episode of season one of BSG, when Adama gets shot by Boomer, now THAT was dramatic and left you on the edge of your seat. As did Crossroads Part 2. No matter how you look at it, the ending of TLM was poorly done in every way, story-wise and also visually.

Ever seen SG nominated for an Emmy for anything but music? Didn't think so.

BSG had nominations for visual effects and also for some of the actors, on top of actually winning one. Oh, and it's the highest rated show on IMBD. So I'm not sure you know what good writing is.

But you'll argue that nothing I said is relevent, so, what's the point?

jenks
March 13th, 2008, 07:48 PM
BSG is military/character-driven, but it's sci-fi nonetheless. At least in BSG, the characters are not one-sided and they actually change, have flaws and we can relate to more than one of em. In SG? John, the super hero who never fails and who lays every woman in Pegasus, McKay, the super genius who knows everything, Teyla, the warrior woman who is so cliche and who dramatically was born without a personality, and Ronon, who...well...I love Ronon.

Sorry, but. The end was very dramatic? An atrociously poorly made CGI sequence of a building collapsing on top of a team we know will survive for the next season? Oh how dramatic! John flying a nuke-equipped jumper into a hive ship at the end of season one was more dramatic and felt less forced. I know everyone has tastes and all, but here I am seriously questionning yours.

If you saw the last episode of season one of BSG, when Adama gets shot by Boomer, now THAT was dramatic and left you on the edge of your seat. As did Crossroads Part 2. No matter how you look at it, the ending of TLM was poorly done in every way, story-wise and also visually.

Ever seen SG nominated for an Emmy for anything but music? Didn't think so.

BSG had nominations for visual effects and also for some of the actors, on top of actually winning one. Oh, and it's the highest rated show on IMBD. So I'm not sure you know what good writing is.

But you'll argue that nothing I said is relevent, so, what's the point?

I do.

KindlyKeller
March 13th, 2008, 08:02 PM
"Good writing" is subjective. With respect, I don't decide the hierarchy of good television based on a cumulative IMDB rating. I would say, though, that the issue is open for debate. I think SGA is an all-around better show in every respect, but that's just an opinion.

ShadowMaat
March 13th, 2008, 08:10 PM
I thought Atlantis won for visual effects at some point and didn't the joke at the end of Wormhole X-treme! kind of imply that was SG-1's usual category, too? Nominated, at least.

I heard a CGI Guru say once that there's no such thing as bad visual effects, just a lack of money and/or time to do it right. Given the high performance Atlantis usually delivers, I'd say any failings were probably budget/time related. :)

As for the rest of it... meh. I'm not interested in comparing Atlantis and SGA since they have different goals and different priorities. I do think Atlantis tends to squander resources, though. Plots, characters, CGI, etc. Sometimes it's a feast or famine thing- and sometimes it's both. ;) I think TLM could have been made a lot more powerful than it was and I think that with all the possibilities the ep had to offer, ending it all with a building collapse was a bit silly. And wasteful.

majorsal
March 13th, 2008, 08:18 PM
Like I mentionned, TLM was a strong episode, up until the end. That building thing was a weak cliff hanger, one I didn't care for and I wasn't excited or impressed. I mean there is SO many things that could have happened! .

i thought 'the last man' was quite agonizing already, so i welcomed the simple building collapse on the team by that point. :p



sally :)

Demerzel
March 13th, 2008, 08:22 PM
I do.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0374455/awards

Share what you're smoking, please. I just ran out. =)

Demerzel
March 13th, 2008, 08:24 PM
i thought 'the last man' was quite agonizing already, so i welcomed the simple building collapse on the team by that point. :p



sally :)

I read that when taking a sip of tea and well...let's just say you owe me a new keyboard. =P It's oh so true in many ways. lol

ToasterOnFire
March 13th, 2008, 08:33 PM
BSG definitely wins when it comes to "wtf just happened?" season finales. :D And if a season finale is meant to keep your anticipation level high over the season break then BSG also wins for me.


BSG had nominations for visual effects and also for some of the actors, on top of actually winning one.
Won a Peabody too. :)

Demerzel
March 13th, 2008, 08:33 PM
I thought Atlantis won for visual effects at some point and didn't the joke at the end of Wormhole X-treme! kind of imply that was SG-1's usual category, too? Nominated, at least.

I heard a CGI Guru say once that there's no such thing as bad visual effects, just a lack of money and/or time to do it right. Given the high performance Atlantis usually delivers, I'd say any failings were probably budget/time related. :)

As for the rest of it... meh. I'm not interested in comparing Atlantis and SGA since they have different goals and different priorities. I do think Atlantis tends to squander resources, though. Plots, characters, CGI, etc. Sometimes it's a feast or famine thing- and sometimes it's both. ;) I think TLM could have been made a lot more powerful than it was and I think that with all the possibilities the ep had to offer, ending it all with a building collapse was a bit silly. And wasteful.

Atlantis got two Emmy nominations, both for the soundtrack. They got three Saturns nominations, one for best actress, Tori Higginson, and two for best show. The other awards simply don't matter.

As for the whole budget/time thing, I kind of agree. But I thought the writing has been getting worse and worse lately and that's not budget related.

And I fully agree about the ending and how the episode could have been better. Mind you, I did watch it 4 times so I like it quite a bit, but I just watch the Ronon/Todd and Sam's death moments all over again. :P

Demerzel
March 13th, 2008, 08:35 PM
BSG definitely wins when it comes to "wtf just happened?" season finales. :D And if a season finale is meant to keep your anticipation level high over the season break then BSG also wins for me.


Won a Peabody too. :)

Glad someone agrees at least on that point. =)

KindlyKeller
March 13th, 2008, 08:40 PM
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0374455/awards

Share what you're smoking, please. I just ran out. =)

You said "SG," so I assume they're including SG-1 in their assessment.

Jill_Ion
March 13th, 2008, 08:40 PM
BSG is military/character-driven, but it's sci-fi nonetheless. At least in BSG, the characters are not one-sided and they actually change, have flaws and we can relate to more than one of em. In SG? John, the super hero who never fails and who lays every woman in Pegasus, McKay, the super genius who knows everything, Teyla, the warrior woman who is so cliche and who dramatically was born without a personality, and Ronon, who...well...I love Ronon.


Shep isn't a super hero, and he has failed. He just fails very well. ;) He also doesn't lay every woman in Pegasus, because if he did there'd be a few thousand Shep thunkers breaking down the doors of the SGC.

McKay is a super genius, but obviously doesn't know everything since he blew up 4/5th of a solar system. Also, he couldn't complete the Replicator virus w/o help from Todd.

Teyla isn't cliche, IMHO, and I find her quite personable. She was more of a diplomat between Atlantis and the rest of the PG than Weir ever was. (Sad to say, but it's true.)

I love Ronon too. :ronan:

As someone who doesn't watch BSG (I've seen three eps overall), comparing the two shows is not relevant, but your opinion of TLM in itself is. :)

Demerzel
March 13th, 2008, 08:43 PM
You said "SG," so I assume they're including SG-1 in their assessment.

Hey, good point. I did mean SG:A.

Demerzel
March 13th, 2008, 08:46 PM
Shep isn't a super hero, and he has failed. He just fails very well. ;) He also doesn't lay every woman in Pegasus, because if he did there'd be a few thousand Shep thunkers breaking down the doors of the SGC.

McKay is a super genius, but obviously doesn't know everything since he blew up 4/5th of a solar system. Also, he couldn't complete the Replicator virus w/o help from Todd.

Teyla isn't cliche, IMHO, and I find her quite personable. She was more of a diplomat between Atlantis and the rest of the PG than Weir ever was. (Sad to say, but it's true.)

I love Ronon too. :ronan:

As someone who doesn't watch BSG (I've seen three eps overall), comparing the two shows is not relevant, but your opinion of TLM in itself is. :)

When put in such a nice way, how could I disagree? =)

And btw, in my book, blowing up stars or solar systems is actually cool....well, when they're not unhabited. >.> So McKay got points for that one anyway. :P

ShadowMaat
March 13th, 2008, 08:54 PM
Atlantis got two Emmy nominations, both for the soundtrack. They got three Saturns nominations, one for best actress, Tori Higginson, and two for best show. The other awards simply don't matter.
Ah. I stand corrected, then. I don't follow awards, so I was mostly guessing. ;)


As for the whole budget/time thing, I kind of agree. But I thought the writing has been getting worse and worse lately and that's not budget related.
Oh, I definitely agree there, I just hated seeing the behind-the-scenes technomancers being dissed. ;)


And I fully agree about the ending and how the episode could have been better. Mind you, I did watch it 4 times so I like it quite a bit, but I just watch the Ronon/Todd and Sam's death moments all over again. :P
:P I also think that with a title like The Last Man it would have been far more illustrative to end it with Shep literally seeming to be the last man. And for all that you enjoy watching everyone die over and over again, don't you think it'd have been more effective to watch them as actual events rather than as pseudo-flashbacks? Poor use of resources, IMO. I don't think they approached this from the right angle.

Jill_Ion
March 13th, 2008, 08:55 PM
Oh! I mis-spoke! I didn't mean to say that your viewing or opinion of BSG wasn't important or relevant. It could certainly shape how you view SGA or other programs.

What I meant to say...I think...is that doing a comparison here, for me as a non-BSG viewer, wasn't really relevant because non-BSG viewers can't relate, and since the shows are so different, it's like comparing apples to oranges...or Wraith to Cylons. ;)

Jill_Ion
March 13th, 2008, 08:56 PM
When put in such a nice way, how could I disagree? =)

And btw, in my book, blowing up stars or solar systems is actually cool....well, when they're not unhabited. >.> So McKay got points for that one anyway. :P

Yeah, blowing up the Project Arcturus system was pretty cool. :mckay:

jenks
March 13th, 2008, 09:08 PM
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0374455/awards

Share what you're smoking, please. I just ran out. =)

You made two mistakes.

First, you only looked at Atlantis nominations. Second, you used presumed IMDb to be a reliable source. :rolleyes:

Demerzel
March 13th, 2008, 09:10 PM
Oh! I mis-spoke! I didn't mean to say that your viewing or opinion of BSG wasn't important or relevant. It could certainly shape how you view SGA or other programs.

What I meant to say...I think...is that doing a comparison here, for me as a non-BSG viewer, wasn't really relevant because non-BSG viewers can't relate, and since the shows are so different, it's like comparing apples to oranges...or Wraith to Cylons. ;)

Actually, I knew what you meant. And you're right on that. =)

And sure you can compare Wraith to Cylons! But very sadly, Cylons don't have Todd, so...they lose. =( Do hot sexy robotic chicks make up for it though? I wonder.

Demerzel
March 13th, 2008, 09:11 PM
You made two mistakes.

First, you only looked at Atlantis nominations. Second, you used presumed IMDb to be a reliable source. :rolleyes:

I meant SG:A only. SG-1 is dead and buried.

And perhaps IMDB is not reliable, but the Emmy website probably is and it says the same. =)

ToasterOnFire
March 13th, 2008, 09:39 PM
Second, you used presumed IMDb to be a reliable source. :rolleyes:
Is IMDB actually wrong in this case or are you playing the logical fallacy of tossing the babe out with the bathwater?

Mitchell82
March 13th, 2008, 10:47 PM
BSG is military/character-driven, but it's sci-fi nonetheless. At least in BSG, the characters are not one-sided and they actually change, have flaws and we can relate to more than one of em. In SG? John, the super hero who never fails and who lays every woman in Pegasus, McKay, the super genius who knows everything, Teyla, the warrior woman who is so cliche and who dramatically was born without a personality, and Ronon, who...well...I love Ronon.
And in BSG Baltar get's laid by his mind or a cylon in nearly every ep. BSG is nothing more than a scifi sex drama. They ruined BSG for me. i feel the BSG characters are one sided not SGA's.


Sorry, but. The end was very dramatic? An atrociously poorly made CGI sequence of a building collapsing on top of a team we know will survive for the next season? Oh how dramatic! John flying a nuke-equipped jumper into a hive ship at the end of season one was more dramatic and felt less forced. I know everyone has tastes and all, but here I am seriously questionning yours.
Question my tastes all you want but I disagree. I loved this finale.


If you saw the last episode of season one of BSG, when Adama gets shot by Boomer, now THAT was dramatic and left you on the edge of your seat. As did Crossroads Part 2. No matter how you look at it, the ending of TLM was poorly done in every way, story-wise and also visually.
Yes it was but the show went downhill very fast after that. Again no I don't see TLM ending being poorly done. Maybe to you it was but not me.


Ever seen SG nominated for an Emmy for anything but music? Didn't think so.
Uh yeah I have even a people's choice award.


BSG had nominations for visual effects and also for some of the actors, on top of actually winning one. Oh, and it's the highest rated show on IMBD. So I'm not sure you know what good writing is.

But you'll argue that nothing I said is relevent, so, what's the point?
Listen my opinion is as valid as yours and I don't need insults. I like the writing of the show and you don't. I hate BSG you don't that's fine but it's my opinion.

Demerzel
March 14th, 2008, 07:23 AM
And in BSG Baltar get's laid by his mind or a cylon in nearly every ep. BSG is nothing more than a scifi sex drama. They ruined BSG for me. i feel the BSG characters are one sided not SGA's.


Question my tastes all you want but I disagree. I loved this finale.


Yes it was but the show went downhill very fast after that. Again no I don't see TLM ending being poorly done. Maybe to you it was but not me.


Uh yeah I have even a people's choice award.


Listen my opinion is as valid as yours and I don't need insults. I like the writing of the show and you don't. I hate BSG you don't that's fine but it's my opinion.

I wasn't insulting, I appologize if it sounded like I was. I just really think the ending was anti-climactic, with the bad CGI and all.

As for Baltar and Six, I have to say you're right. I tried not to pay attention to them, and I found myself skipping those scenes to get back to the real story. But in a way, I think it gives the show a human side. You have to admit, sex is a big thing in today's society. It's everywhere and is an easy way to make money. I think the show is realistic (Baltar/Six not included) in the fact that the characters are human, flawed and we can relate to many of them.

As for the awards, I said "Emmy" only, because to me it's one of the two only awards that actually matter in the long list that a sci-fi show can win.

It's the last time I reply to you though, I always have a hard time dealing with fanboys who think their fetish series is perfect. Even I am able to give in to certain points and admit that others can be right in some way even if I kinda disagree with them.

Briangate78
March 14th, 2008, 07:23 AM
So this has become a BSG vs SGA thread huh? Well I love both shows for what they are, I feel both shows have dynamic characters. It truly is one's opinion what they think of the show and it's characters.

One person insulted me a few weeks ago on another forum. We were discussing different shows and they said to me "oh obviously you don't watch the show" Well you know what, I wanted to reply with "I was going to say the same thing about you." :mckay: Did I? Nah, I just said it was messed up what they said. They never replied back.

To attack someone for their opinion is low. People may not agree on things but so Fracking what.

ciannwn
March 14th, 2008, 09:04 AM
I don't think the cliffhanger ending is supposed to be us wondering who survived. Sheppard and co. got to this building early and Rodney set the booby trap off so it's now a pile of rubble. They aren't going to find Michael and Teyla there now so it will be a race against time to learn where she's being taken in this alternate time line. Yes, they altered the future but not in the way they wanted to.

Jill_Ion
March 14th, 2008, 09:52 AM
Actually, I knew what you meant. And you're right on that. =)

And sure you can compare Wraith to Cylons! But very sadly, Cylons don't have Todd, so...they lose. =( Do hot sexy robotic chicks make up for it though? I wonder.

I think for many people, hot sexy robotic chicks make up for a LOT! :lol:

For me, I can forgive a lot if handsome men are involved, but I find myself being less and less forgiving these days. ;) It's weird, I'm actually expecting some good stories or acting or something!

Naonak
March 14th, 2008, 11:11 AM
BSG is military/character-driven, but it's sci-fi nonetheless. At least in BSG, the characters are not one-sided and they actually change, have flaws and we can relate to more than one of em. In SG? John, the super hero who never fails and who lays every woman in Pegasus, McKay, the super genius who knows everything, Teyla, the warrior woman who is so cliche and who dramatically was born without a personality, and Ronon, who...well...I love Ronon.
Personally, I can't really relate to any of Galactica's characters, except maybe Tyrol, who seems the most "normal" person (except for how he's a robot now ;)). They have flaws, but some of them have so many flaws that they shouldn't be able to function as people.
I can relate much better to the characters of both Stargates. They seem more real to me, although I'll admit that Teyla hasn't been given quite as much attention over the four years as she should have been. I think your descriptions of John and Rodney are kind of exaggerated, as Jill Ion already pointed out.


Sorry, but. The end was very dramatic? An atrociously poorly made CGI sequence of a building collapsing on top of a team we know will survive for the next season? Oh how dramatic! John flying a nuke-equipped jumper into a hive ship at the end of season one was more dramatic and felt less forced. I know everyone has tastes and all, but here I am seriously questionning yours.
It didn't exactly seem likely that John was going to blow himself up, though? As I and others have mentioned in other threads, we've always known that SG-1 or Shep's team would make it out of the cliffhangers, so why is this year any different?


If you saw the last episode of season one of BSG, when Adama gets shot by Boomer, now THAT was dramatic and left you on the edge of your seat. As did Crossroads Part 2. No matter how you look at it, the ending of TLM was poorly done in every way, story-wise and also visually.
Kobol's Last Gleaming, I'll give you, but while Starbuck's return was a (unwelcome) surprise, I don't think the rest of the cast are in any real danger.


As for the awards, I said "Emmy" only, because to me it's one of the two only awards that actually matter in the long list that a sci-fi show can win.
Why do any matter? All awards things - Oscars, Emmys, BAFTAs - are just people's opinions, and I don't see why their panels are better to judge than anyone else.

ShadowMaat
March 14th, 2008, 11:18 AM
There is already an Atlantis vs. BSG (http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=51633) thread. Suffice to say, some prefer one to the other and some like both or even neither. But as far as Atlantis's season finale goes, I think this one left a lot to be desired.

Demerzel
March 14th, 2008, 02:43 PM
I don't think the cliffhanger ending is supposed to be us wondering who survived. Sheppard and co. got to this building early and Rodney set the booby trap off so it's now a pile of rubble. They aren't going to find Michael and Teyla there now so it will be a race against time to learn where she's being taken in this alternate time line. Yes, they altered the future but not in the way they wanted to.

That's what I'm saying. Why do such a finale when we know they'll survive? Why not end the season on a real suspense? A cliffhanger doesn't mean you HAVE to have someone who might die.

ShadowMaat
March 14th, 2008, 02:46 PM
A cliffhanger doesn't mean you HAVE to have someone who might die.
*pats Dem on the head* You must be new here. ;)

Demerzel
March 14th, 2008, 02:49 PM
*pats Dem on the head* You must be new here. ;)

Haha. Yes, I am. :P That's what happens when you injure yourself, and got too much time on your hands...hopefully I'm back on my feet before motorcycle season and then I can stop arguing on here ;)

ShadowMaat
March 14th, 2008, 02:54 PM
Haha. Yes, I am. :P That's what happens when you injure yourself, and got too much time on your hands...hopefully I'm back on my feet before motorcycle season and then I can stop arguing on here ;)

Just load up on your pain meds and Atlantis will get a whole lot better. ;)

Demerzel
March 14th, 2008, 02:58 PM
Just load up on your pain meds and Atlantis will get a whole lot better. ;)

You know, that sounds damn good right now. But sadly, got a club meeting tonight and I gotta drive, so...no pain meds! Besides, can you picture me telling em "hey, I watch sci-fi shows and then I go argue online!"? Kind of hard to look tough after that. :P

nx01a
March 14th, 2008, 03:05 PM
Maat: Torchwood and Doctor Who babiez!!!! YAY!! So cute, and jack's still flirting with people. :P
--
I found the episode itself quite intriguing and engaging, touching events with those great 'stuff blew up!!!' moments re: Sam and her Phoenix and Ronon n Todd.

The building collapse was a bad choice as cliffhanger when the 'stuck 48,000 years in the future' angle would have been far more interesting, and potentially harder to get out of. 'Stuck under rubble' is boring. I know they'll get out, and worse, the potential ways they could get out are as bland as getting stuck there in the first place [secret tunnels, beaming tech, etc.] Unless they're all seriously injured and can't leave sick bay for 3 episodes, I'm bored.

Demerzel
March 14th, 2008, 03:07 PM
Maat: Torchwood and Doctor Who babiez!!!! YAY!! So cute, and jack's still flirting with people. :P
--
I found the episode itself quite intriguing and engaging, touching events with those great 'stuff blew up!!!' moments re: Sam and her Phoenix and Ronon n Todd.

The building collapse was a bad choice as cliffhanger when the 'stuck 48,000 years in the future' angle would have been far more interesting, and potentially harder to get out of. 'Stuck under rubble' is boring. I know they'll get out, and worse, the potential ways they could get out are as bland as getting stuck there in the first place [secret tunnels, beaming tech, etc.] Unless they're all seriously injured and can't leave sick bay for 3 episodes, I'm bored.

Amen to that.

PG15
March 14th, 2008, 04:06 PM
The building collapse was a bad choice as cliffhanger when the 'stuck 48,000 years in the future' angle would have been far more interesting, and potentially harder to get out of. 'Stuck under rubble' is boring. I know they'll get out, and worse, the potential ways they could get out are as bland as getting stuck there in the first place [secret tunnels, beaming tech, etc.] Unless they're all seriously injured and can't leave sick bay for 3 episodes, I'm bored.

It's times like this when I ponder whether to release some spoilers or not.

Hmmm, let's see...you think they get out unscathed do you? Really?

Ok then. ;)

Demerzel
March 14th, 2008, 04:14 PM
It's times like this when I ponder whether to release some spoilers or not.

Hmmm, let's see...you think they get out unscathed do you? Really?

Ok then. ;)

I really hope they don't, personally. Remember Heroes Part 2? We knew Jack would survive, but he got shot pretty good. Or Sam in Line in the Sand.

If they all get injured at least a bit, then I'll be happy. =P

Jill_Ion
March 14th, 2008, 04:20 PM
For me, the falling building isn't the cliffhanger. It's "Will they find Teyla and Michael in time?" The falling building was just icing on the cake, a bit of over-the-top, hyperbolic, "What else can happen?!" after all we'd been put through watching the potential demise of the Team. I mean OTT and hyperbolic in a good way.

(Taking out the nice Lorne and Looooove moments, and Shep in Danger! moments)

1. Shep gets sent 48k yrs in the future
2. Teyla dies
3. Ronon dies
4. Sam dies
5. Woolsey appears
6. Keller leaves
7. McKay leaves
8. Keller dies
9. McKay devotes his life to a potentially futile endeavor
10. Shep returns!
11. They don't find Teyla
12. McKay triggers a booby trap

*pause*

13. The building falls down on them.

#13 is a nice period after all of that trauma and drama. It's almost dark, dry British humor that invoked a loud R-rated verbal response from me.

Jumper_One
March 14th, 2008, 04:26 PM
awesome post Jill_Ion, my thoughts exactly

Jill_Ion
March 14th, 2008, 04:41 PM
awesome post Jill_Ion, my thoughts exactly

Thanks! http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p282/Jill_Ion/MiscFlans/luckyshep.gif

Demerzel
March 14th, 2008, 05:12 PM
Thanks! http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p282/Jill_Ion/MiscFlans/luckyshep.gif

If Teyla isn't rescued in time, then...hey, she'll be dead! Yay! >.>

And by the way, Shep can't be injured in that incident. He's Mr. Fantastic, remember? He'll just flatten, get up, and re-inflate to go save his team.

ShadowMaat
March 14th, 2008, 06:05 PM
Teyla is the Sexy Alien Chick. They won't kill her. :rolleyes:

Demerzel
March 14th, 2008, 06:09 PM
Teyla is the Sexy Alien Chick. They won't kill her. :rolleyes:

I hate it when you're right. >.> Kate was way cuter, in my opinion, and they killed her...in her sleep!! Sexiest alien? The Seer's daughter. *drool* I'd say Chaya was hot, but she counts as a goddess, not an alien. <.<

ToasterOnFire
March 14th, 2008, 06:12 PM
And by the way, Shep can't be injured in that incident. He's Mr. Fantastic, remember? He'll just flatten, get up, and re-inflate to go save his team.
Oh injured, sure. Just nothing that lasts beyond that series of eps. Reset button and all. It's like those cartoons when someone gets scuffed up and in the next set of frames they're magically shiny and new. ;)

PG15
March 14th, 2008, 06:12 PM
And by the way, Shep can't be injured in that incident. He's Mr. Fantastic, remember? He'll just flatten, get up, and re-inflate to go save his team.

:D

Demerzel
March 14th, 2008, 06:15 PM
Oh injured, sure. Just nothing that lasts beyond that series of eps. Reset button and all. It's like those cartoons when someone gets scuffed up and in the next set of frames they're magically shiny and new. ;)

Hahaha. So true.

ShadowMaat
March 14th, 2008, 06:15 PM
But she's the only Sexy Alien Chick on the team. At least until they bring in Larrin. *sigh*

Now that TPTB have flat-out admitted that they're aiming for the 18-34 male demographic I imagine the SACs will be, um, busting out all over. :P

Demerzel
March 14th, 2008, 06:25 PM
But she's the only Sexy Alien Chick on the team. At least until they bring in Larrin. *sigh*

Now that TPTB have flat-out admitted that they're aiming for the 18-34 male demographic I imagine the SACs will be, um, busting out all over. :P

ROFL

Larrin. *dreamy sigh* But seriously, Teyla isn't that hot. And I don't mean strictly physically. She has no charisma. Larrin has some sex appeal, on the other end. Anyways.

Jill_Ion
March 14th, 2008, 06:38 PM
If Teyla isn't rescued in time, then...hey, she'll be dead! Yay! >.>

And by the way, Shep can't be injured in that incident. He's Mr. Fantastic, remember? He'll just flatten, get up, and re-inflate to go save his team.

*sticks tongue out* I like Teyla, so I don't want her dead.

Hee hee, Mr. Fantastic, hee hee!


Oh injured, sure. Just nothing that lasts beyond that series of eps. Reset button and all. It's like those cartoons when someone gets scuffed up and in the next set of frames they're magically shiny and new. ;)

Nah, there's just this thing called Time between eps that occurs without us seeing it. SGA isn't like LOST, where we're checking in every three or four days. Sometimes there're weeks passing in Pegasus while only a week passes for us. Other times...not so much...time. ;)

Demerzel
March 14th, 2008, 07:00 PM
*sticks tongue out* I like Teyla, so I don't want her dead.

Hee hee, Mr. Fantastic, hee hee!


I like her too...........as a cold corpse on the floor of an empty warehouse!!

Bahahahahaha. *hides*

Thanks for the rep and comment, by the way. I really appreciate. =) Time to leave for the meeting though, back to argue and goof in a few hours. ;)

Jill_Ion
March 14th, 2008, 07:09 PM
I like her too...........as a cold corpse on the floor of an empty warehouse!!

Bahahahahaha. *hides*

Thanks for the rep and comment, by the way. I really appreciate. =) Time to leave for the meeting though, back to argue and goof in a few hours. ;)

*throws Wraith goo at Demerzel!* LOL!

You're welcome, BTW!

ToasterOnFire
March 14th, 2008, 07:44 PM
Nah, there's just this thing called Time between eps that occurs without us seeing it. SGA isn't like LOST, where we're checking in every three or four days. Sometimes there're weeks passing in Pegasus while only a week passes for us. Other times...not so much...time. ;)
Yes, "this thing called Time" + never mentioning an event that affects a character beyond the ep it happened = Reset button. See also: Reunion, Doppelganger, Tabula Rasa, Miller's Crossing, Harmony, Outcast, and Trio. :D

PG15
March 14th, 2008, 08:13 PM
Why would they mention them? Seriously, why would they just go "hey, remember how...?" in the middle of some scene when it has nothing to do with the plot?

That's not a reset button, that's "not dragging the plot down with irrelevant info". With a show that usually see cuts of minutes of footage, time is of the essence. And it is an action/adventure show, first and foremost.

And they did mention Harmony in The Last Man. ;)

It puzzles me; Stargate has NEVER done what you're asking them to do. You're not criticising them because this is a new thing, are you?

ShadowMaat
March 14th, 2008, 08:22 PM
We're digressing again. :P

Atlantis is overly fond of the reset button, IMO, and TLM is just the latest example of it... only this time there isn't even anything to reset since all those events never happened. Or at least they aren't going to happen now. The writers had a field day killing everyone off because they knew it wasn't "real" and while some fans were obviously affected by it anyway I have a hard time accepting that the drama was supposed to feel real. Yes, Teyla's still missing and maybe that's supposed to be the real scare factor of the ep, but even that's hard to believe because I know she's going to be rescued. I don't even have to read the spoilers to find out; she's a main character so obviously she'll be saved. And I could care less about the fate of her Baby of Doom because whatever happens that will work out, too. It's hard to work up a feeling of suspense when you know the writers are gonna take the safe route out of any situation. ;)

KindlyKeller
March 14th, 2008, 10:33 PM
It's hard to hold the writers over the fire for something that pretty much every TV series of all time has done, though. It's not their fault that for as long as television has been produced, it has been assumable more often than not that main characters will make it out of a given situation.

In fact, if you set aside spoilers, it's pretty easy to argue that the formula is broken on SGA far more often than other shows, given that Ford may have been killed, and Weir and Beckett were both definitively killed.

ciannwn
March 15th, 2008, 02:18 AM
12. McKay triggers a booby trap

*pause*

13. The building falls down on them.

#13 is a nice period after all of that trauma and drama. It's almost dark, dry British humor that invoked a loud R-rated verbal response from me.

I thought it a wonderfully ironic turn of events. Rodney dedicates 25 years of his life to finding a way of sending Sheppard back with vitally important information. His younger, alternate self then messes things up because he can't resist turning that console on.

We know they will end up changing the future in the end but the interest could lie in seeing how they do it.

ShadowMaat
March 15th, 2008, 05:21 AM
It's hard to hold the writers over the fire for something that pretty much every TV series of all time has done, though.
Actually, I can fault the writers for anything I want to because it's my opinion. What you see as reasons I see as excuses- and not very good ones, IMO. Sorry, but I've never felt the need to say, "Awww, those poor little writers! It's not THEIR fault they can't come up with anything original! Everything has already been don before! You can't expect miracles!" IMO, if the writing is good enough it doesn't matter how "old" a plot is because they can find a way to spin it and make it their own. Too often I feel that Stargate's PTB don't bother and I certainly think it's true of TLM.

kymeric
March 15th, 2008, 05:48 AM
The more I think about The Last Man, the more I realise how the writers think too much about themselves.

Malozzi said we'd be ripping our hair off when The Last Man ended. All he found for an ending was to collapse a building on top of a team we know will all survive? What kind of suspense is that?

Then tonight I re-watched the last episode of season 3 of Battlestar Galactica. The very last scene, the space combat scene in the nebula. And how the season ends. Now THAT's a HELL of a suspense, that you would literally kill to see the next episode. Whoever saw it knows what I mean and how incredibly intense it was, visually, musically and emotionally. A scene that makes you shiver, tremble and keeps you on the edge of your seat. And nobody's in any danger of dying. Sort of.

So, for TPTB, please learn from much better writers and learn how to end your seasons so the people will beg for the next.

TLM was a good episode, overall. The end was bad, very bad. We know they'll survive, we know they'll find Teyla alive. There is no mystery and no suspense. I keep hoping Atlantis will get better, and it simply doesn't. I stopped caring and I watch it only because Stargate has been one of my passions for 10 years.

It used to be my absolute favorite show, and now I enjoy House more than SG. That's kinda sad. Can't wait for season 4 of BSG, for real sci-fi.

/rant off

Or they are real people who can say what they want?

Oh and BSG = rehash of of original BSG and BSG1980 that doesnt even hold a candle to it. On the scale of happiness original bsg is like a couple pieces of sugary cake, and sga is like a deep dish pizza purchased in chicago. For me modern BSG rates at the same level as finding out my cat has leukemia.

ToasterOnFire
March 15th, 2008, 06:27 AM
Why would they mention them? Seriously, why would they just go "hey, remember how...?" in the middle of some scene when it has nothing to do with the plot?
Yes, I assume if the writers actually implemented it in that horrid, forced manner that you describe then it would be bad. :D And while I have seen TPTB use subtlety with all the grace of a dropping anvil and write flowing dialog like a jackhammer in the manner you described, I have also seen them carefully integrate continuity between eps with minimal negative effect on the action/adventure side.


It puzzles me; Stargate has NEVER done what you're asking them to do. You're not criticising them because this is a new thing, are you?
SGA has never done a good job with its presence, portrayal, and development of female characters either. I guess you can either say "Well, women will always get the shaft on SGA" and sit back to watch the action or point out when it happens (and it is still happening) and hope for better.

ShadowMaat
March 15th, 2008, 06:48 AM
In season six it felt like we couldn't get through an episode without SOME mention of Daniel, but I think his was the only death with any lasting effect on the surrounding characters. Or have they been mentioning Weir all along?

Jill_Ion
March 15th, 2008, 08:42 AM
Yes, "this thing called Time" + never mentioning an event that affects a character beyond the ep it happened = Reset button. See also: Reunion, Doppelganger, Tabula Rasa, Miller's Crossing, Harmony, Outcast, and Trio. :D

Oh, I forgot to add: YMMV. :)

Toaster, do you prefer serial type shows, where one ep picks up right/soon after the previous ep and each ep is closely interconnected? I like both that style of show (24, LOST, Prison Break), and shows whose eps are more standalone (Law & Order, Numb3rs, Medium). I'm trying to understand your strong resistance/distaste/??? towards SGA not having its characters limp around all the time. (Realizing you haven't said specifically "limp around all the time," but that's my very quick way to describe what I see you calling the "reset button." Hee hee, maybe it should be called the resent button. Hee hee!)

Demerzel
March 15th, 2008, 09:55 AM
Oh, I forgot to add: YMMV. :)

Toaster, do you prefer serial type shows, where one ep picks up right/soon after the previous ep and each ep is closely interconnected? I like both that style of show (24, LOST, Prison Break), and shows whose eps are more standalone (Law & Order, Numb3rs, Medium). I'm trying to understand your strong resistance/distaste/??? towards SGA not having its characters limp around all the time. (Realizing you haven't said specifically "limp around all the time," but that's my very quick way to describe what I see you calling the "reset button." Hee hee, maybe it should be called the resent button. Hee hee!)

Morning Jill! Boy am I hungover, ugh. >.<

That's why I like BSG, it's one long story. Feels like watching a 60 hours long movie. Mind you, I like the regular format as well, and I think they both have their good and bad sides. It's easier to follow a show like SG even if you didn't see all the episodes before. With 24 and such, you really got to have seen the previous episodes to fully understand what's going on.

And I agree with the reset button thing, actually. SG has never been strong on two points. One, mentionning dead characters, and two, crying after a tough event. Only exception to that is Sam, who used to cry all the time and I always thought the writers knew she was oh so pretty when crying, and that we have a soft spot for her and so the scenes will get to us. Anyways.

Briangate78
March 15th, 2008, 10:34 AM
For me, the falling building isn't the cliffhanger. It's "Will they find Teyla and Michael in time?" The falling building was just icing on the cake, a bit of over-the-top, hyperbolic, "What else can happen?!" after all we'd been put through watching the potential demise of the Team. I mean OTT and hyperbolic in a good way.

(Taking out the nice Lorne and Looooove moments, and Shep in Danger! moments)

1. Shep gets sent 48k yrs in the future
2. Teyla dies
3. Ronon dies
4. Sam dies
5. Woolsey appears
6. Keller leaves
7. McKay leaves
8. Keller dies
9. McKay devotes his life to a potentially futile endeavor
10. Shep returns!
11. They don't find Teyla
12. McKay triggers a booby trap

*pause*

13. The building falls down on them.

#13 is a nice period after all of that trauma and drama. It's almost dark, dry British humor that invoked a loud R-rated verbal response from me.

EXACTLY! GREEN FOR YOU! :P The cliffhanger was Sheppard getting back assembling a rescue mission to find Teyla. Her life and the galaxy are at a crossroad. The entire fate of the galaxy is depending on this rescue mission. If it fails, Michael will complete his research, infect more people with the hoffan drug, bring the Wraith to their knees and control the Pegasus galaxy. The building collapsing is just extra whipcream on the icecream sundae! :p

If they truly want to add some creative writing, they will have Lorne killed in the season premiere. Why? Well who out of the Atlantis expedition seemed to have succeeded the most? It would be interesting and a twist if Sheppard and co. changing the timeline, saved Teyla and the galaxy but in return lost Major Lorne in the process. Truthfully they may not go with that angle. Lorne is a great character who just does what he is supposed to do and truly adds to the show.

PG15
March 15th, 2008, 10:59 AM
Yes, I assume if the writers actually implemented it in that horrid, forced manner that you describe then it would be bad. :D And while I have seen TPTB use subtlety with all the grace of a dropping anvil and write flowing dialog like a jackhammer in the manner you described, I have also seen them carefully integrate continuity between eps with minimal negative effect on the action/adventure side.


But they were almost always important to the situation at hand, i.e. they are important to the plot. I'm just saying, there's no reason to refer back to episodes when it doesn't serve the plot, and that's basically what they've been doing since day 1. Season 4 is no different, as those episodes you mentioned weren't important to the plot later on.

Mitchell82
March 15th, 2008, 01:12 PM
I wasn't insulting, I appologize if it sounded like I was. I just really think the ending was anti-climactic, with the bad CGI and all.
That's fine and I apologize if I sounded snappy.


As for Baltar and Six, I have to say you're right. I tried not to pay attention to them, and I found myself skipping those scenes to get back to the real story. But in a way, I think it gives the show a human side.
I tried but I just couldn't see past that.

You have to admit, sex is a big thing in today's society.It's everywhere and is an easy way to make money. I think the show is realistic (Baltar/Six not included) in the fact that the characters are human, flawed and we can relate to many of them.
I'll admit the sex part but I don't have to like that's what our society has become.


As for the awards, I said "Emmy" only, because to me it's one of the two only awards that actually matter in the long list that a sci-fi show can win.
It's not the only thing that matters since the other awards are just as important.


It's the last time I reply to you though, I always have a hard time dealing with fanboys who think their fetish series is perfect. Even I am able to give in to certain points and admit that others can be right in some way even if I kinda disagree with them.
That's your choice but I've never said SGA is perfect. It has flaws from time to time. Eps that could have been better, stories that wernt fleshed out good enough etc...

Demerzel
March 15th, 2008, 02:54 PM
That's fine and I apologize if I sounded snappy.


I tried but I just couldn't see past that.

I'll admit the sex part but I don't have to like that's what our society has become.


It's not the only thing that matters since the other awards are just as important.


That's your choice but I've never said SGA is perfect. It has flaws from time to time. Eps that could have been better, stories that wernt fleshed out good enough etc...


I don't like what the society has become either, to be honest. I mean I associate myself with a group who is known for their questionable activities, but I pride myself on having more morals than most.

As for the awards, I made sure to say they are the only ones that matter "to me". The others might be important for other people, but not for me.

nx01a
March 16th, 2008, 07:32 AM
If Teyla isn't rescued in time, then...hey, she'll be dead! Yay! >.>

And by the way, Shep can't be injured in that incident. He's Mr. Fantastic, remember? He'll just flatten, get up, and re-inflate to go save his team.
Teyla's the Invisible Woman. They'll NEVER find her!
Luckily, her invisible plot shield will protect her and the baby.:teyla:

If they truly want to add some creative writing, they will have Lorne killed in the season premiere. Why? Well who out of the Atlantis expedition seemed to have succeeded the most?
Creative writing, IMO, is writing interesting charaters well and creating inventive situations Killing characters is pure shock value unless the long lasting effects of their deaths are fleshed out. SGA's gotten into death/resurrection scenarios of comic book proportion and I'd hate to see how Lorne would be resurrected.
I agree that the whole flipside effect with changing the past might be interesting, and Lorne has to be guilty about losing Teyla and gung ho about saving her. His death might work if he saves her and the baby, stopping Michael. If so, Lorne's the real hero of SGA: getting future Rodney to Atlantis to set up the hologram and save Shep and saving Teyla. If he goes out a hero, I might buy it. Killing him without some greater purpose would just suck. I hope he saves her and lives, but that's just me.

Maybe Zelenka will save her? He had basically no future in TLM, perhaps he'll be the one on whom everything in this reality turns re: Teyla and Michael. :P It'd be so left field, it might just work. :P

Phenix
March 19th, 2008, 09:28 AM
:P I also think that with a title like The Last Man it would have been far more illustrative to end it with Shep literally seeming to be the last man. And for all that you enjoy watching everyone die over and over again, don't you think it'd have been more effective to watch them as actual events rather than as pseudo-flashbacks? Poor use of resources, IMO. I don't think they approached this from the right angle.

IMO this was just a bit of lazy writing and an example of producers not wanting to make tough decisions. I love Ronon's character and I look forward to his development but I would not have been against him dying during a similar raid BUT SGA would have had to carry that grief and story into successive episodes which it is incapable of performing competently.

Sam's death would have been pointless since she should have never been in that position. Her job is to stay safely on Atlantis while creating strategic initiatives and performing diplomatic missions. She can go off world occasionally but she is not supposed to command a combat mission.

The other scenarios were just not that interesting to me. I do not fully understand the nature of the hoffan drug. If its airborne then all SGA members should be infected but if it is through another means then none of them should be infected. It made no sense and I'm not a fan of Keller and McKay anyway.

This episode felt like SGA was saying "if we had balls, we'd actually make this happen."

O and the building....it was over the top and rather pointless.

Jill_Ion
March 19th, 2008, 01:17 PM
IMO this was just a bit of lazy writing and an example of producers not wanting to make tough decisions. I love Ronon's character and I look forward to his development but I would not have been against him dying during a similar raid BUT SGA would have had to carry that grief and story into successive episodes which it is incapable of performing competently.

Sam's death would have been pointless since she should have never been in that position. Her job is to stay safely on Atlantis while creating strategic initiatives and performing diplomatic missions. She can go off world occasionally but she is not supposed to command a combat mission.

The other scenarios were just not that interesting to me. I do not fully understand the nature of the hoffan drug. If its airborne then all SGA members should be infected but if it is through another means then none of them should be infected. It made no sense and I'm not a fan of Keller and McKay anyway.

This episode felt like SGA was saying "if we had balls, we'd actually make this happen."

O and the building....it was over the top and rather pointless.

How was The Last Man "lazy writing?" I don't understand what you're saying.

You look forward to Ronon dying, but only if the Team is upset for several episodes? In your opinion, how should they show that? Talk about it for several minutes each ep? Look depressed for a few weeks? Cry or look teary every time we see them? Also, I don't get your use of the word "competently." Since the show doesn't do that, it's incompetent? It couldn't be just how TPTB decide to do their show?

Why shouldn't Sam command a ship? HoloRodney explained how and why she became captain of the Phoenix. She's proven herself to be quite good in dangerous battles, so why should she sit in Atlantis? (Not that Atlantis is all that safe anyway! :O )

Based upon The Kindred, the Hoffan drug was most likely transmitted through food and/or water sources. It could have mutated into an airborne disease or since Keller had a lot of contact with the victims' bodily fluids, she could have been infected that way.

SGA did make it happen, just in an alternate timeline. If they didn't do it in an alternate timeline, the entire Team would be dead. I personally don't think that'd make for an interesting S5! ;)

I agree the building falling was over the top, but I don't see it as pointless. YMMV.

Phenix
March 19th, 2008, 06:19 PM
How was The Last Man "lazy writing?" I don't understand what you're saying.

You look forward to Ronon dying, but only if the Team is upset for several episodes? In your opinion, how should they show that? Talk about it for several minutes each ep? Look depressed for a few weeks? Cry or look teary every time we see them? Also, I don't get your use of the word "competently." Since the show doesn't do that, it's incompetent? It couldn't be just how TPTB decide to do their show?

Why shouldn't Sam command a ship? HoloRodney explained how and why she became captain of the Phoenix. She's proven herself to be quite good in dangerous battles, so why should she sit in Atlantis? (Not that Atlantis is all that safe anyway! :O )

Based upon The Kindred, the Hoffan drug was most likely transmitted through food and/or water sources. It could have mutated into an airborne disease or since Keller had a lot of contact with the victims' bodily fluids, she could have been infected that way.

SGA did make it happen, just in an alternate timeline. If they didn't do it in an alternate timeline, the entire Team would be dead. I personally don't think that'd make for an interesting S5! ;)

I agree the building falling was over the top, but I don't see it as pointless. YMMV.

IMO, the Stargate universe has never effectively dealt with emotional fall out. The one episode that stands out is when Janet died in SG1 but I barely remember anyone shedding a tear when Carson and Weir exited SGA. During the episode when it happened people were shocked but it was back to normal the next show. I'd expect SGA to handle death differently because the non military types play a significant role in the show.

The reason why I say that they can not successfully pull this off is the SGA world has very little carry over from one episode to the next. And if they chose to create a speculative fiction bubble then I doubt they can pull it off. Its just an opinion but they are not always the best writers.

The reason why I called the episode lazy is that the writers were saved from making tough choices about the future. I doubt that any of the main characters will die now BUT if Michael succeeds (I hope he does) then Atlantis will be in real danger again. I'm not a huge fan of babies in TV shows and it would be interesting to see Teyla and the team deal with the loss of the baby.

If by some chance Michael does succeed then I will not think that the possible futures were lazy. In fact it could be amazing since its possible for them to show scenarios from that episode. Well, really only show Ronon's scenario but I hope he'd live this time. I do not want Ronon to die at all.

And about Sam, unless she was replaced as commander she would still be the ranking officer in Pegasus. She'd be in charge of strategic planning and initiatives. In this role she would never take command of that ship. It is one of those real world meets SG world scenarios.

If someone did die I would not expect the cast to cry all day everyday. Instead the writers could show a conflict with in the group over the loss or have one member enter a deep depression b/c they blame themselves for the loss. Then you know the team could have a team building experience when they bring their comrade out of a depression. It could last one, two, or three episodes. Maybe Rodney is slowly having trouble working or Shep fails to make the proper command. Something to trigger a discussion. I write poetry not screen plays.

Jill_Ion
March 19th, 2008, 07:54 PM
Thank-you!!! :) I get it! :) Rock on!!

(My extremely brief and rather incoherent way of saying I appreciate you taking the time to reply to my questions and I appreciate the discussion points you brought up. :) )

Naonak
March 27th, 2008, 12:31 PM
The reason why I called the episode lazy is that the writers were saved from making tough choices about the future.
I don't really see what you're saying here. What tough choices were they saved from making?


IMO, the Stargate universe has never effectively dealt with emotional fall out. The one episode that stands out is when Janet died in SG1 but I barely remember anyone shedding a tear when Carson and Weir exited SGA. During the episode when it happened people were shocked but it was back to normal the next show. I'd expect SGA to handle death differently because the non military types play a significant role in the show.
I thought the fallout from Daniel's death was well-handled in Revelations and Redemption.

I think that part of the problem with Atlantis is that in Shep, Rodney and Ronon they've got three characters who - for their various reasons - are quite wary to talk about their feelings. In that way, in makes a kind of sense for them not to have many emotional scenes, it's just a bit weird. The scenes they do have - Rodney/Carson at the end of Sunday, Rodney/Zelenka at the end of TMC, Shep/Rodney in Outcast - are great, there's just not many of them.

Othala08
March 30th, 2008, 03:17 AM
This is a very interesting discussion, and I think it highlights what long-term and loyal fans of SGA want and deserve - that is, more insight into the thought processes and feelings of these characters. One reason why this does not happen, apart from bitty story arcs and TPTB creating more stand-alone eps, is quite simply to be found in the dialogue. If you contrast SG1, especially the earlier shows, you had Jack and Daniel and Teal'c and Brata'c and co actually speaking sentences, phrases, speeches of dialogue - with emotion, intensity, anger, feeling - which the producers of SGA never seem to allow. If you watch any scene, characters get a phrase, a word, maybe a sentence - and that's it, onto the next scene. It's interesting that the main 'feeling' characters - Weir and Carson - have been sidelined, though of course we may see more of Carson in S5. I think the dialogue writing needs a serious looking over; the actors are doing a great job with what they have, which is not much. Joe Flanigan in particular IMO rarely seems to get enough to say - and he deserves better.
:)
Regards Othala

Lythisrose
March 30th, 2008, 08:01 AM
This is a very interesting discussion, and I think it highlights what long-term and loyal fans of SGA want and deserve - that is, more insight into the thought processes and feelings of these characters. One reason why this does not happen, apart from bitty story arcs and TPTB creating more stand-alone eps, is quite simply to be found in the dialogue. If you contrast SG1, especially the earlier shows, you had Jack and Daniel and Teal'c and Brata'c and co actually speaking sentences, phrases, speeches of dialogue - with emotion, intensity, anger, feeling - which the producers of SGA never seem to allow. If you watch any scene, characters get a phrase, a word, maybe a sentence - and that's it, onto the next scene. It's interesting that the main 'feeling' characters - Weir and Carson - have been sidelined, though of course we may see more of Carson in S5. I think the dialogue writing needs a serious looking over; the actors are doing a great job with what they have, which is not much. Joe Flanigan in particular IMO rarely seems to get enough to say - and he deserves better.
:)
Regards Othala
I agree with much of this, it seems that lately Sheppard's role is mainly to give "meaningful looks" in response to whatever situation he's in. (although I think JF is a master of the "meaningful look" :))

Jill_Ion
March 31st, 2008, 05:50 PM
I've heard in commentaries on both SG-1 and SGA eps that the writers have to balance out, in some manner or another, the number of spoken lines per character. So, sometimes one might think character X would say something in real life, but in the show, the sentences would be split between a couple of characters. I don't think there's an exact percentage or scientific method, it's probably more by feel than formula, but that may explain a little bit of the shortness of discussions.

IMHO, Shep is the King of Looks (physically and emotively).

The more I think of it - and I'm not saying I should've even thought about it this long - 43 minutes is not long enough for some of the stories SGA wants to tell. There's an abbreviation, a quick coding handled by expressions and editing, to some areas of "life" in Atlantis.

Glugory
April 5th, 2008, 12:58 PM
Wait, people actually thought The Last Man was a good season finale? It was 30 minutes of crap we knew would get retconned anyway and then a building falls on the team. Snore. This might have been interesting as a standalone episode, but a SEASON FINALE? Think back to The Siege Part 2. That was EPIC! Compare it to The Last Man. Oh wow, we get to watch all the characters get screwed up even though we KNOW Sheppard is going to fix it. SNORE SNORE SNORE!

desh
April 9th, 2008, 06:53 PM
Wasn't this finale supposed to be very suspenseful? Weren't we all supposed to cry? I don't mean to suggest that a building falling on our heroes isn't exciting as a concept, but it is done so quickly, randomly, and seemingly cheaply that it feels like a copout.

Also, the Teyla/Michael conflict is handled very poorly in this episode, in contrast to The Kindred, when the team finds Carson and Michael's other experiments and as Carson has to come to terms with the nightmare, a devastating dilemma that is beautifully rendered. In this episode, Michael's ambition and conquest is treated with such ambiguous fatalism that it does not have the same impact. Very disappointing.