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KindlyKeller
March 11th, 2008, 06:30 PM
I felt the need to make a new thread for this just because I keep seeing it time and time again, including in the most recent fan review. People are complaining that it's unrealistic that Sheppard's disappearance had such a huge effect on the unfurling of events and is the primary reason things went bad.

It was crystal clear from the episode, however, that Sheppard's disappearance had precious little to do with things going bad -- i.e. not finding Teyla in time. The ONLY reason things are expected to go better after he's returned to the present is because he is armed with specific information provided to him by HoloMcKay.

I guess it just seemed perfectly obvious to me, making me do a double-take when I see so many people note the same "flaw."

Lt. Col. Mcoy
March 11th, 2008, 06:35 PM
I totally agree.

Ltcolshepjumper
March 11th, 2008, 06:38 PM
I felt the need to make a new thread for this just because I keep seeing it time and time again, including in the most recent fan review. People are complaining that it's unrealistic that Sheppard's disappearance had such a huge effect on the unfurling of events and is the primary reason things went bad.

It was crystal clear from the episode, however, that Sheppard's disappearance had precious little to do with things going bad -- i.e. not finding Teyla in time. The ONLY reason things are expected to go better after he's returned to the present is because he is armed with specific information provided to him by HoloMcKay.
I guess it just seemed perfectly obvious to me, making me do a double-take when I see so many people note the same "flaw."
Correct. If Sheppard had been there, Michael would still have taken over the galaxy. The critical point was that they did not have the resources to keep up with Michael. At the end of the episode, they do.

Avenger
March 11th, 2008, 07:21 PM
Aye. It was not finding Teyla and her baby that allowed Michael to take over.

reddevil18
March 11th, 2008, 07:35 PM
Exactly. Everything Rodney told John was the original timeline, as it was supposed to happen. It was their fate, if you will, as John's disappearance was a natural occurance. It happened because it was supposed to happen. Rodney deciding to help him and John coming back with the information causes a whole new timeline. His disappearance had nothing to do with what happened after that.

garhkal
March 11th, 2008, 08:06 PM
Perhaps when shep disappeared, for some reason they lost their only chance to properly stop michael and recover Teyla before michael did his thing... So when shep went missing that did not happen..

KindlyKeller
March 11th, 2008, 08:11 PM
Perhaps when shep disappeared, for some reason they lost their only chance to properly stop michael and recover Teyla before michael did his thing... So when shep went missing that did not happen..

But what evidence is there to support that?

Ranlier
March 11th, 2008, 09:39 PM
Correct, Rodney deliberately used Shep as a tool to cheat, not restore, the timeline.

Sheppard himself would not have magically aquired the location of Teyla in time to save her- she would have died and Michael would have used her baby as the key to taking over Pegasus. By giving Sheppard the exact location of Teyla, which they were never supposed to HAVE, he was able to change the timeline.

....
...........
...............maybe.

dasNdanger
March 11th, 2008, 09:57 PM
I agree - but will also add that it was a little of both.

Sheppard is a bit of a ....what would you say? A little bulldog. He doesn't give up easy. Remember what Todd said in Common Ground? He was 'stronger than any human he's ever fed upon.'

Part of that strength is his determination to keep on going. It's what saved him when he was nearly sucked dry by Todd. It's what's saved him through that duststorm. It's what's saved him when the iratus bug was attached to his neck. It's what's saved him in so many situations.

So...without him there as Atlantis' very own human ZPM, the PTB quickly took over, and - as Rodney said - they didn't have enough resources to search for Teyla.

Think about it - it's ALWAYS been Sheppard who went the extra mile to save his Pegasus-born friends. Only Sheppard would push and push and push until Teyla was found, alive and well. But the others from Earth? Nah - they'd consider her 'acceptable losses' since she was - to them - an alien. Sheppard, on the other hand, was able to look beyond where the person was from, to see who the person was - he loves Teyla and Ronon like his own family, and he'll do whatever it takes to save either one of them. Unfortunately, the others from Earth don't share his same dogged determination to save humans from another galaxy.

So, in this light it was a cascade effect: With Sheppard not there to fight for Teyla, the earth-based powers would not see the need to make an extra effort to find some alien (and a woman, at that) from another galaxy. Sam and the others would, of course, make an attempt - but they lack the one thing Sheppard has in aces - the ability to break the rules at every turn to save a comrade, and somehow get the resources along the way to succeed. It's the basis on which he was introduced into the series - he's the guy who will not leave a friend behind - at all costs, he will save them. So, without him there to fight to find Teyla, she would be lost forever, and Michael would take over the galaxy.

The thing is - even armed with new information from the future, Teyla is still lost to them. So, assuming that John survives the building collapse, he still needs to find her before it's too late. The fact that he's back in the right time will certainly help...and increases the odds that she will be found, and Michael will not gain the upper hand.

So - yes - the rise of Michael is due to Teyla's death (and the loss of her child to Michael), but her death is partially due to Sheppard not being there to drive the others on to find her. But he is there now, and even though they still don't know where Teyla is, at least - with Sheppard on their side - they have a fighting chance to find her before it's too late, again.

das

KindlyKeller
March 11th, 2008, 10:30 PM
Yeah, with respect, I can't agree with any of that at all. That's assigning way, way too much gravitas to him in my opinion. However tenacious Sheppard is -- and I agree he's tenacious -- it's clear that the team continued tirelessly searching until they found her (dead unfortunately). There's no reason to think Sheppard would have had any better ideas on where to look if he were there, which is really the only thing at issue.

FallenAngelII
March 11th, 2008, 10:37 PM
Stuff
He can push as much as he wants, he still won't find her if he has no idea where to look for her and she's well hidden.

Also, Teyla's lost to them even now, but that doesn't mean squat if the timeline's changed, now does it? A lot of new things can happen which will help them find Teyla in time. The fact that John's just there might not be the decisive reason.

KindlyKeller
March 11th, 2008, 10:49 PM
And just as a side note, Sheppard's not the "only" one from Earth who cares to find Teyla. McKay cares just as much, and Lorne's and Carter's investment in the search has seemed apparent as well.

dasNdanger
March 11th, 2008, 11:52 PM
Yeah, with respect, I can't agree with any of that at all. That's assigning way, way too much gravitas to him in my opinion. However tenacious Sheppard is -- and I agree he's tenacious -- it's clear that the team continued tirelessly searching until they found her (dead unfortunately). There's no reason to think Sheppard would have had any better ideas on where to look if he were there, which is really the only thing at issue.

Yes, the team continued tirelessly, but Rodney says they had limited resources and were not able to cover enough ground. Why? Well, my first guess is that once Sheppard was 'dead', the by-the-bookers immediately stepped in (Caldwell, IOC, etc) and deemed it unnecessary to put additional personnel on the job.

Also - and I'm taking a wild guess here because there is absolutely no indication of it, but without Shep to vouch for Todd, I doubt they'd ask him for assistance, which he may have been willing to do - if the price was right. What better way to find Michael than to see what Michael's other enemies know. But after Midway, no way would the IOC/SGC agree to make nice with a Wraith, (though Sam may have some influence, but I don't know if she'd go behind their backs like Sheppard would). Sheppard was the buffer there, and he was gone.

And, like I said earlier, the whole 'theme' of Sheppard's character is that he doesn't leave people behind. Yeah, I might be giving him more credit than I should, but this is fiction and this is about heroes, and it's not uncommon for a character to be a sort of 'superman' in a show, and Shep has been used in such a way before. So, yes...his disappearance very well could have been the beginning of the end, and not just Teyla's death.

I guess we will know in S5 - if they find her now, after they ruined the opportunity of finding her where she was supposed to be - and if they find her because of Sheppard's help...then I'd say that his disappearance was the catalyst for all the bad that happened in TLM. However, if Teyla is found without any major influence on Sheppard's part, then I suppose it would be safe to say that Teyla's death (and the abduction of her child) was the main catalyst. Personally, I see it as a two-fold deal, both playing a part in Michael's rise - Teyla's sad end directly, and Sheppard's disappearance indirectly.

das

Esquin
March 12th, 2008, 12:17 AM
I jsut don't think Sheppard was that important. yes he's always had that determination but that determination doesn't change the fact taht they didn't know where to look.

They only got the intel about the location after Teyla was dead. Having Sheppard there doesn't make them aware of that planet any sooner.

KindlyKeller
March 12th, 2008, 12:25 AM
Fair enough. You're welcome to that opinion (and I don't mean that in the smug smartass sense). I think you're way, way off, and making a lot of wild assumptions that aren't substantiated by anything we saw in the episode, though.

The "lack of resources" would seem logically to have much more to do with Atlantis' inherent limitations than outside exertions. Why in the world would Caldwell -- a random ship commander -- step in, and why would he have any influence on the situation? And Sam isn't going to roll over for the IOA. She has infinitely more experience and influence with them than Sheppard. I find it highly suspect that Sheppard would somehow be a buffer to stop IOA influence (which we have no indication was even present in the situation).

I don't really understand what you're getting at with the Shep super-hero angle. Was he going to develop telepathy and omniscent galactic vision? Again, we're not talking about Shep being there to blow away bad guys; we're talking about him being there in the search to find her. WHY would he be so vital when he didn't have any more clue where she was than anyone else?

As for Shep being helpful in getting her back being a determining factor in whether or not his absence is responsible for the other timeline, that argument doesn't make any sense to me at all. I didn't think there was room for dispute in any way, shape, or form that Teyla's death and the abduction of her child is the main catalyst. That's perfectly clear in the episode. It's Teyla's child that allows Michael to complete his research, which is what casts the galaxy in darkness. Sheppard's being there wouldn't have changed anything after that point.

2ndgenerationalteran
March 12th, 2008, 02:23 AM
Actually had Shep still been there after michael had the baby i doubt it would have gone much better. They probably wasted valuable time searching for Shep and teyla at the same time, until they found out what happened to Shep then the resources would be shifted back to teyla. But by then it was probably too late. So overall Sheppard's absence wouldn't make a bid deal in the events, but him coming back to save teyla and the baby, that will stop a lot of things from happening. if michael some how gets away with the baby and things go much better than there maybe a lot hanging on Sheppard's shoulders.

Athgar
March 12th, 2008, 04:50 AM
I felt the need to make a new thread for this just because I keep seeing it time and time again, including in the most recent fan review. People are complaining that it's unrealistic that Sheppard's disappearance had such a huge effect on the unfurling of events and is the primary reason things went bad.

It was crystal clear from the episode, however, that Sheppard's disappearance had precious little to do with things going bad -- i.e. not finding Teyla in time. The ONLY reason things are expected to go better after he's returned to the present is because he is armed with specific information provided to him by HoloMcKay.

I guess it just seemed perfectly obvious to me, making me do a double-take when I see so many people note the same "flaw."

Exactly, I also believe the information is the critical factor.

However it's worth considering that as per the butterfly effect, changing anything at all can have far-reaching consequences. It's plausible that when choosing which planet to search Sheppard would have influenced the choice and they may have struck lucky.

However I don't for a second believe that the people suggesting he would make a differnce are thinking along those lines or that it's a likely scenario, it's just vaguely possible on paper

Daniel Jackson
March 12th, 2008, 05:16 AM
I felt the need to make a new thread for this just because I keep seeing it time and time again, including in the most recent fan review. People are complaining that it's unrealistic that Sheppard's disappearance had such a huge effect on the unfurling of events and is the primary reason things went bad.

It was crystal clear from the episode, however, that Sheppard's disappearance had precious little to do with things going bad -- i.e. not finding Teyla in time. The ONLY reason things are expected to go better after he's returned to the present is because he is armed with specific information provided to him by HoloMcKay.

I guess it just seemed perfectly obvious to me, making me do a double-take when I see so many people note the same "flaw."
Exactly. Loosing Sheppard to the distant future didn't drop the galaxy into chaos. However, learning about everything that happened gives him the chance to go back in time and change everything. It's a bit like SG-1 "2010" where a message was sent back in time.

sg1adam
March 12th, 2008, 05:44 AM
"Why did everything go to hell just because Sheppard was gone?" Because he was the glue that kept them all together.

dasNdanger
March 12th, 2008, 05:45 AM
.... I didn't think there was room for dispute in any way, shape, or form that Teyla's death and the abduction of her child is the main catalyst. That's perfectly clear in the episode. It's Teyla's child that allows Michael to complete his research, which is what casts the galaxy in darkness. Sheppard's being there wouldn't have changed anything after that point.


I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying. YES - Teyla's death and her child's abduction is the MAIN catalyst. However, why did THAT happen? It happened because she was not found in time. She was not found in time because of a lack of resources (which can also be translated as a 'lack of interest', based on previous episodes and the lack of determination to do the right thing outside of the core group (Shep, Teyla, Ronon, McKay, Weir/Sam, Carson/Keller, and by extension - Lorne). In The Return, TPTB were quite prepared to blow up Atlantis with Jack and Woolsey inside - that included Caldwell who obviously did not question the order. Only the core group have shown a willingness to bend the rules to save their fellows.

So, since Sheppard is the driving force behind that core group - since he has proven time and again that he will stop at nothing to rescue his friends or comrades - then based on this, I think it is safe to say that Teyla was not found in time because Sheppard wasn't there, and the disinterested powers (inc. Caldwell, who would not push for a search, Mr. Negative that he is, and the IOC, and everyone else who have shown a lack of real interest in the PG outside of the threat it might personally present to them) chose not to make it a priority. Demoralized men out searching for someone their superiors could care less about are not likely to succeed. As the obvious 'hero' of the show, Sheppard would have found a way to push for her successful rescue.

So - again...NOT saying that Teyla's death/abduction of her child had no impact - that WAS the DIRECT cause of Michael's rise. But the indirect cause was Sheppard's adsence, which - as I see it - was the main reason Teyla was not found in time.

And sure, this is just my opinion, and may not be the mindset the writers had at all. But I see it all as a domino affect - Sheppard goes missing - he's the first domino to be pushed over, knocking down all the dominos behind him.


das

dasNdanger
March 12th, 2008, 07:25 AM
"Why did everything go to hell just because Sheppard was gone?" Because he was the glue that kept them all together.

Yup, I think that's what I've been trying to say, but...well...I tend to ramble... :o


das

Lythisrose
March 12th, 2008, 08:26 AM
I think that this is one of these questions that just might not have an answer.
We know for sure that, without Shep, things go to hell.
We have yet to find out if they go there with him back.
What happens without Shep? - Teyla dies, her baby is used to enable Michael to threaten the entire galaxy.
Who knows, if he comes back, and she still dies, that something Shep does stops Michael from using the baby and the galaxy is not plunged into hybrid hell.
It could be as "simple" as Shep killing Michael. Or it could be because Shep is there in Atlantis, Ronon does not leave, Todd does not die with him and it is Todd who comes up with a plan to destroy Michael. He is, afterall, a genius in his own right.
(On the other hand, Shep could come back, touch some ancient thingamabob and blow the entire Pegasus galaxy to hell right there)
I suppose we will see what next season brings in the way of an answer.

Lythisrose
March 12th, 2008, 08:39 AM
And another thing...:S
If Rodney didn't think Shep was "the glue" that held everyone and everything together, why would he have even bothered to send Shep back anyway? He could have simply put himself in stasis and programmed his hologram to wake him at an opportune solar flare and sent himself back with the information about Teyla. He must have thought there was more for Shep to do than simply be a messenger.

ciannwn
March 12th, 2008, 08:46 AM
And another thing...:S
If Rodney didn't think Shep was "the glue" that held everyone and everything together, why would he have even bothered to send Shep back anyway? He could have simply put himself in stasis and programmed his hologram to wake him at an opportune solar flare and sent himself back with the information about Teyla. He must have thought there was more for Shep to do than simply be a messenger.

People age even in stasis chambers so it could be that Rodney would have been dead long before an appropriate solar flare happened - the original Weir was a very old woman when she was found in 'Before I Sleep' and she, like the 'Aurora' crew, had only been in stasis for 10,000 years. It also took Rodney 25 years to work out how to send Sheppard back so he would have been elderly even before he went into stasis.

Lythisrose
March 12th, 2008, 08:53 AM
People age even in stasis chambers so it could be that Rodney would have been dead long before an appropriate solar flare happened - the original Weir was a very old woman when she was found in 'Before I Sleep' and she, like the 'Aurora' crew, had only been in stasis for 10,000 years. It also took Rodney 25 years to work out how to send Sheppard back so he would have been elderly even before he went into stasis.

Thats a good possiblity, however there also could have been an appropriate solar flare long, long before the 48,000 years has passed for Shep to show up.
(just trying to salvage my theory ;))

ciannwn
March 12th, 2008, 09:08 AM
Thats a good possiblity, however there also could have been an appropriate solar flare long, long before the 48,000 years has passed for Shep to show up.
(just trying to salvage my theory ;))

Just thought of another reason why Rodney mightn't have wanted to put himself into stasis. When he returned there'd be two of him in the same timeline which could have made things awkward. The other reason is that he'd be with Keller again but she'd have no knowledge of the time they spent together. This would probably have been heartbreaking for him even after 25 years. If she did end up falling in love with a Rodney it would likely be with his younger, alternate self too unless she really has a thing about older men.

Lythisrose
March 12th, 2008, 09:22 AM
Just thought of another reason why Rodney mightn't have wanted to put himself into stasis. When he returned there'd be two of him in the same timeline which could have made things awkward. The other reason is that he'd be with Keller again but she'd have no knowledge of the time they spent together. This would probably have been heartbreaking for him even after 25 years. If she did end up falling in love with a Rodney it would likely be with his younger, alternate self too unless she really has a thing about older men.

Ouch... time travel hurts my head. It would be tough for older Rodney to see Keller.
But OTOH, more Rodneys! We've had AU Rod, dupli!Rodney and now we could have seasoned!Rodney too. He could even call his younger self "young man" a time or two. Anyway.......:S

delrey
March 12th, 2008, 10:26 AM
Ouch... time travel hurts my head. It would be tough for older Rodney to see Keller.
But OTOH, more Rodneys! We've had AU Rod, dupli!Rodney and now we could have seasoned!Rodney too. He could even call his younger self "young man" a time or two. Anyway.......:S

Hahaha :lol: One of my fav parts is where rodney asks shep if he still has hair in the future and shep tells him no when he really does haha. Priceless.
I also think the emphasis was put on the information about where teyla was suppose to be, Even with shep, if the team did not have a location things would still be in mikes favor. But he is an important part and a contributor, but not as much as the info i would say.

ciannwn
March 12th, 2008, 10:41 AM
I also think the emphasis was put on the information about where teyla was suppose to be, Even with shep, if the team did not have a location things would still be in mikes favor. But he is an important part and a contributor, but not as much as the info i would say.

The first piece of information didn't help them much in the end. Sheppard and his forces arrived before Michael and Teyla did and Rodney activated the booby trap by turning that console on. Michael might still arrive but is likely to notice that the building is now a pile of rubble before going down to the planet with Teyla. Maybe Sheppard and co might be able to get hold of one of Earth's warships and lie in wait but there's no guarantee this would work unless they can guard the planet's Stargate and stop any of Michael's hybrids coming through to check on the place or something.

KindlyKeller
March 12th, 2008, 12:36 PM
And another thing...:S
If Rodney didn't think Shep was "the glue" that held everyone and everything together, why would he have even bothered to send Shep back anyway? He could have simply put himself in stasis and programmed his hologram to wake him at an opportune solar flare and sent himself back with the information about Teyla. He must have thought there was more for Shep to do than simply be a messenger.

This is another bizarre argument to me. Why would Rodney send himself back (where there already IS another Rodney, by the way), when he can send John back to the right time with the necessary information? What does he gain by going back himself?

People are really, really reaching here.

KindlyKeller
March 12th, 2008, 12:39 PM
"Why did everything go to hell just because Sheppard was gone?" Because he was the glue that kept them all together.

Wow; if after reading this entire thread, someone can still say that, then I see this is a lost cause.

Lythisrose
March 12th, 2008, 12:49 PM
People are really, really reaching here.
Pleads Guilty!:o
(but it's fun)

delrey
March 12th, 2008, 01:56 PM
The first piece of information didn't help them much in the end. Sheppard and his forces arrived before Michael and Teyla did and Rodney activated the booby trap by turning that console on. Michael might still arrive but is likely to notice that the building is now a pile of rubble before going down to the planet with Teyla. Maybe Sheppard and co might be able to get hold of one of Earth's warships and lie in wait but there's no guarantee this would work unless they can guard the planet's Stargate and stop any of Michael's hybrids coming through to check on the place or something.

Thats the thing about timelines, they can go in any direction once its been altered, but we obviously know they arnt going to die now a combination of having shep back an the coridinates didnt hurt

KindlyKeller
March 12th, 2008, 02:01 PM
Pleads Guilty!:o
(but it's fun)

LOL! You're welcome to. I don't mind the discourse in this thread because the people who disagree with me are doing so because they're such big Sheppard fans. That's cool with me. This thread was mostly an annoyed outburst aimed at those who called it a "major flaw" that Sheppard's disappearance had such sway, when I didn't think that was the case.

Descended from the Ascended
March 12th, 2008, 04:46 PM
Exactly. Everything Rodney told John was the original timeline, as it was supposed to happen. It was their fate

Errrmmm....


thats not what happened the first time. ;)






(the first time they all drowned in Atlantis - except Shep, Zelenka and Weir)

dasNdanger
March 12th, 2008, 05:23 PM
LOL! You're welcome to. I don't mind the discourse in this thread because the people who disagree with me are doing so because they're such big Sheppard fans. That's cool with me. This thread was mostly an annoyed outburst aimed at those who called it a "major flaw" that Sheppard's disappearance had such sway, when I didn't think that was the case.

weeeeelll...hate to bust your bubble...but.....

I think Sheppard is a little weaselly Wraith-killing cur. Oh, and he whines. A LOT. (okayokayokay-so he's as cute as a button and and has puppy dog eyes and pouty lips - BUT...that doesn't affect the way I feel about the little stinker...for the most part.)

Still, I do see Shep as 'the glue that holds the team together' - as well as someone determined NOT to leave a person behind. So, not only is he a team motivator, but he's also not going to rest until his mission is accomplished.

See...if it was up to me (everyone can breathe a sigh of relief that it's not) it would be Todd that comes in and saves the day, the Wraith and Teyla. Just because. But I realize that such a fantasy will never happen, so I have to be satisfied with the next best thing - and, as much as I hate to say it, it's that Wraith-murdering (Bob, anyone??!), double-crossing, sneaky little SOB who goes by the name Sheppard. He has what it takes to undo what's been done, and had he not disappeared, I'm thinking it wouldn't have happened exactly like we've seen.

See - the thing is this - even if they save Teyla and the baby, there's no guarantee that Michael won't still be out there, causing trouble (unless he's killed in S&R). So, I don't necessarily see John as saving the ENTIRE day, though I do believe he will at least save Teyla, and - if nothing more - delay Michael's sinister plan.

So, it has nothing to do with being a Shep lover. I just base my opinions on what I've seen in other episodes, the the little fella is as tenacious as a rabid wolverine, soooo...yeah. I do think his disappearance had AN affect, although not necessarily as the main catalyst to Michael's rise in power.


das

BubblingOverWithIdeas
March 12th, 2008, 08:14 PM
Yes, the team continued tirelessly, but Rodney says they had limited resources and were not able to cover enough ground. Why? Well, my first guess is that once Sheppard was 'dead', the by-the-bookers immediately stepped in (Caldwell, IOC, etc) and deemed it unnecessary to put additional personnel on the job.

That would be dumb of them, because Teyla is part of the team and because it was obvious that letting Michael have her and her baby would be disastrous even before the disaster happened. Maximum resources would be called for.

It's possible that Sheppard vouching for Todd and Todd cooperating with them would have an effect, but there's no guarantee that Todd knew of Michael's haunts.

Konrad9
March 12th, 2008, 09:54 PM
I jsut don't think Sheppard was that important. yes he's always had that determination but that determination doesn't change the fact taht they didn't know where to look.

They only got the intel about the location after Teyla was dead. Having Sheppard there doesn't make them aware of that planet any sooner.

Did you even read the post first? That's exactly what he said.

dasNdanger
March 12th, 2008, 10:07 PM
That would be dumb of them, because Teyla is part of the team and because it was obvious that letting Michael have her and her baby would be disastrous even before the disaster happened. Maximum resources would be called for.

But remember what happened when...was it when Ronon went missing in Sateda?? Ugh, I've watched so much in the last few weeks, I get everything confused. :p But anyway, Sheppard's decision was questioned at that time because he wanted to rescue someone from the PG, and not someone from earth. Based on that attitude, and the fact that it was Shep who insisted on finding his missing non-earthling teammate, tells me that - without Sheppard there to look after the likes of Teyla and Ronon, the folks from earth certainly aren't going to go the extra mile for them (they'd be skeptical about Teyla's value to Michael and his plans anyway).


It's possible that Sheppard vouching for Todd and Todd cooperating with them would have an effect, but there's no guarantee that Todd knew of Michael's haunts.

The idea about Todd is a stretch - I just brought it up because...well...I just love the guy! :D I'd love to see him be a positive force in the show, instead of all the suggestions that he'll eventually turn out like Baal...(or however you spell his name). Still - it would make sense to see if Todd had SOME kind of intel on Michael/Teyla...and I'm sure the Lanteans could find SOMETHING to offer him in return for his troubles...

like...Kavenaugh, for instance... :D


das

BubblingOverWithIdeas
March 13th, 2008, 01:05 PM
(they'd be skeptical about Teyla's value to Michael and his plans anyway).

Why?

Lauriel
March 13th, 2008, 05:38 PM
I agree with many posts here. Shep=glue. Yup.

However, I don't think the reason HoloRodney brought Shep back had anything to do with Shep himself. The timeline is a chain of links. Break a link- break the chain. It started way before Shep going missing.

Team to Atlantis>Shep woke wraith>genetics experiments>capture Michael and use him as guinea pig>Michael gets pissed>Shep goes missing>Teyla dies>etc. To break the chain one could consider a multitude of 'whatifs'. Shep's going missing is simply the link that Rodney had some power to alter.

dasNdanger
March 13th, 2008, 09:15 PM
Why?

Because the IOA and all are skeptical about everything. Remember the new IOA guy who didn't seem to like Teyla? Why should he care what happens to her? Why should earth in general care? The ones who have shown true concern are Sheppard, and those under him (and Sam/Weir). TPTB won't see the import of Teyla until it's too late...THEN they'd blame it all on her anyway. That's the way things work in intergalactic 'politics'.


das

BubblingOverWithIdeas
March 13th, 2008, 09:26 PM
Because the IOA and all are skeptical about everything. Remember the new IOA guy who didn't seem to like Teyla? Why should he care what happens to her? Why should earth in general care? The ones who have shown true concern are Sheppard, and those under him (and Sam/Weir). TPTB won't see the import of Teyla until it's too late...THEN they'd blame it all on her anyway. That's the way things work in intergalactic 'politics'.


das

I don't see them as so terminally stupid that they can't recognize the tactical significance here.

dasNdanger
March 13th, 2008, 09:51 PM
I don't see them as so terminally stupid that they can't recognize the tactical significance here.

You watching the same show as me? ;)

In nearly every episode I've seen, TPTB question the wisdom of the Lanteans' decisions, and how many reports have been fudged - even ones by Woolsey himself? I was under the impression that it was a running theme - the higher-ups are always less insightful than the Lantean team. Remember The Return, when they didn't even consider a rescue attempt for Jack and Woolsey, not to mention trying to save Atlantis? If they were not going to go save O'Neill, then why should they bother with Teyla?


das

KindlyKeller
March 13th, 2008, 10:20 PM
You watching the same show as me? ;)

In nearly every episode I've seen, TPTB question the wisdom of the Lanteans' decisions, and how many reports have been fudged - even ones by Woolsey himself? I was under the impression that it was a running theme - the higher-ups are always less insightful than the Lantean team. Remember The Return, when they didn't even consider a rescue attempt for Jack and Woolsey, not to mention trying to save Atlantis? If they were not going to go save O'Neill, then why should they bother with Teyla?


das

There's a difference between risking incursion into a base that no longer belongs to you -- that is controlled by a dangerous alien race -- in a galaxy you're no longer operating in, just to save two people versus sending people out to look for a missing team member who is key to your strategic operations at a major base in a galaxy you're entrenched in. There's really no comparison.

BubblingOverWithIdeas
March 14th, 2008, 06:26 AM
There's a difference between risking incursion into a base that no longer belongs to you -- that is controlled by a dangerous alien race -- in a galaxy you're no longer operating in, just to save two people versus sending people out to look for a missing team member who is key to your strategic operations at a major base in a galaxy you're entrenched in. There's really no comparison.

Especially when you throw in the consequences of letting one of our biggest enemies, who is our personal responsibility, have her. To ignore that situation, the higher ups would need to have no ability to think strategically, and that's not true. Look at their Replicator plan from The Ark of Truth. If the IOA had taken control, they'd be as anxious as anyone to find the base where Michael was holding Teyla and her baby, if only to blow it up.

Jill_Ion
March 14th, 2008, 11:28 AM
You watching the same show as me? ;)

In nearly every episode I've seen, TPTB question the wisdom of the Lanteans' decisions, and how many reports have been fudged - even ones by Woolsey himself? I was under the impression that it was a running theme - the higher-ups are always less insightful than the Lantean team. Remember The Return, when they didn't even consider a rescue attempt for Jack and Woolsey, not to mention trying to save Atlantis? If they were not going to go save O'Neill, then why should they bother with Teyla?


das

Not disagreeing with you in regards to TLM, but my understanding for The Return was that the USAF was following both procedure and O'Neill's orders to not rescue him. Gotta go back and watch it to confirm. (Oh darn! ;) )

dasNdanger
March 14th, 2008, 11:56 AM
Not disagreeing with you in regards to TLM, but my understanding for The Return was that the USAF was following both procedure and O'Neill's orders to not rescue him. Gotta go back and watch it to confirm. (Oh darn! ;) )

Heya! No worries - disagree all ya want, it's all good!

And yes - I believe it was something like that in The Return...and that's why I am using it as an example of the formula of the show: impossible situation that earth doesn't want to deal with (for whatever reason) that's left for Sheppard & Co. to resolve (sometimes by disobeying orders or through other unconventional means). It's been the basis of many episodes, so I think there's no difference here with TLM - for whatever reason, earth isn't all that interested in Teyla, only the SGA team seem concerned and are looking for her. Even before TLM, in the Kindred I, it's Todd who's helping, and in Kindred II, Cloneckett.

I just figure that's the whole point of making Sheppard the hero (a.k.a. star) of the show...to have him...well...BE the hero. Sure, others will rise to the occasion (Rodney often saves the day, as we all know), and Ronon and Teyla and Weir and Sam and others...but when you're dealing with a major story arc, it's logical that all will hinge on the star.

das

Jill_Ion
March 14th, 2008, 12:47 PM
Oh! I get it now! :)

And I'm with you that the way most TV shows work, if there's a star/hero, he or she usually wins and does the majority of the heroic stuff. Kinda like their job, eh?

If Jack gets to save the MW galaxy, why can't Shep save the PG?

Ruffles
March 14th, 2008, 02:51 PM
There's a difference between risking incursion into a base that no longer belongs to you -- that is controlled by a dangerous alien race -- in a galaxy you're no longer operating in, just to save two people versus sending people out to look for a missing team member who is key to your strategic operations at a major base in a galaxy you're entrenched in. There's really no comparison.

Do you think the IOA would see Teyla as "key" to strategic operations? Michael told Teyla why he took her (to complete his research), but no one else knows. As far as the rest of the galaxy is aware, he's an experiment gone wrong who is killing thousands in Pegasus. They can't possibly know the implications of what not finding her will mean.


Especially when you throw in the consequences of letting one of our biggest enemies, who is our personal responsibility, have her. To ignore that situation, the higher ups would need to have no ability to think strategically, and that's not true. Look at their Replicator plan from The Ark of Truth. If the IOA had taken control, they'd be as anxious as anyone to find the base where Michael was holding Teyla and her baby, if only to blow it up.

However, just because Teyla is there doesn't mean Michael would be from their point of view. He was holding Carson in a prison while he was toodling around the galaxy in his cruiser. As far as the IOA knows, finding Teyla does not necessarily equate to finding Michael.

While I agree that Michael taking Teyla's baby is why everything went to hell, I have to agree in part with das. Sheppard would have fought harder than anyone to get her back. He would have kept the focus on finding her. Now, would he have gotten there in time? Maybe, but most likely not.

nx01a
March 14th, 2008, 03:46 PM
I don't think everything went to hell because he wasn't there. He isn't John Sheridan and this isn't B5. :P
I think the things we saw would have happened regardless of Shep's presence or not. He's the key to stopping that alt future simply because he can bring back Rodneygram's knowledge of the alt future, like Teyla's location [for all the good that did them].

He'd fight for Teyla harder than anyone [excluding Lorne now:P], sure, but there's only so much he could do. That future would have happened almost the same had he been a part of it, except he'd probably have gotten the Phoenix and saved Sam for Jack. :D

Jill_Ion
March 14th, 2008, 05:24 PM
I don't think everything went to hell because he wasn't there. He isn't John Sheridan and this isn't B5. :P

And he isn't Jack Shephard and this isn't LOST. ;)

KindlyKeller
March 14th, 2008, 06:02 PM
Weeeell, I'm not really sure I have anything else to say on the subject. It couldn't be any clearer to me, and I don't think there's anything whatsoever in the episode to contradict it. BUT good discussion; I'm always happy to have them!

MattSilver 3k
March 15th, 2008, 08:36 AM
Shep is not the glue. I'm on that side of the argument.

He's just one guy. And in case you all forgot, Ronon, McKay and everybody else cared for Teyla the same way and would have the determination to find her. So Sheppard being in the future causes them not to find Teyla? Was the secret to finding her in his hair gel? That logic is hurting my brain.

This is probably what happened when Shep accidentally went through the gate during a flare: he died. Alone in that city. There wasn't enough food, no power, no nothing. He probably searched through the whole city until he starved to death. In about like a month (Just a guess), he keeled over and died alone.

Back home, everyone worked overtime to find their two missing people. McKay found out about the flare, and the whole funeral thing followed. Then Teyla was found, dead. Gutted by Micheal and had her kid taken to become the ultimate weapon for Micheal.

Then... you know the rest.

Like I said, there's nothing that Sheppard would've changed. He would've campaigned and never give up I'm sure, but he and the team would take tip after tip from offworld sources and search the whole galaxy and never find Teyla until she was you know... dead (In the real world, haven't some people searched much smaller areas and still lose people?)... Or... they coulda died looking for her - maybe they found another one of Mikey's warehouses and blew up.

But now... the timeline is changed, so everybody's argument is pointless.

JSPuddlejumper
March 15th, 2008, 09:03 AM
the sexual Mojo was gone = everything went to hell

why? female team performance


if you don't have Kirk around...

Jill_Ion
March 15th, 2008, 10:24 AM
This is probably what happened when Shep accidentally went through the gate during a flare: he died. Alone in that city. There wasn't enough food, no power, no nothing. He probably searched through the whole city until he starved to death. In about like a month (Just a guess), he keeled over and died alone.

But now... the timeline is changed, so everybody's argument is pointless.

Agreed that arguing over a potentially changed timeline (who knows what's going to happen, especially if Shep's presence or non-presence is not pertinent to the current timeline?).

I think Shep would've lasted a couple of days at most: 120 degree heat, no water, no food. Of course, that also is a moot point. :)


the sexual Mojo was gone = everything went to hell

why? female team performance


if you don't have Kirk around...

:sheppard33: :sheppardanime31: :sheppard33:

;)

dasNdanger
March 15th, 2008, 04:48 PM
Shep is not the glue. .

He is! He is! How do we know? First billing/bigger paycheck = glue!!!

;)


das

Jill_Ion
March 15th, 2008, 08:40 PM
He is! He is! How do we know? First billing/bigger paycheck = glue!!!

;)


das

Yup! 100% true!

(Not that I'm biased or anything.) :sheppard:

SoulReaver
March 15th, 2008, 11:02 PM
I felt the need to make a new thread for this just because I keep seeing it time and time again, including in the most recent fan review. People are complaining that it's unrealistic that Sheppard's disappearance had such a huge effect on the unfurling of events and is the primary reason things went bad.butterfly effect :/

Xaeden
March 17th, 2008, 01:27 AM
The thing is we can't know for sure what would or would not have happened in Sheppard was there. That one little extra push or remark might've gotten them that information they needed to find Telya first. But even if she did die (which I think is highly likely despite how this may sound) he might've been the only one who could've united with Todd and/or the Travellers against Michael and in doing so they might've found a way to be rid of both the Wraith and Michael. He might've also been the one to make a point to keep communications opened with Todd so Todd could find a cure to the Hoffman's drug.

There are a lot of possibilities and what ifs. That said, I personally don't think Telya would have lived if he would've remained and I think it would've been 50/50 on the second part as he very clearly has a special connection with those two and they could've turned the tide of things if organized properly. In the end I don't disagree with the original poster at all, (he's right that the episode did not depict everything going sour just because Sheppard wasn't in the picture and it is silly to automatically assume that to be the case) I just wouldn't go far as to say I'd know for sure what would've happened if he was around. The idea behind the butterfly effect is that little things like deciding to go right instead of left could lead to completely different timelines. So if you go even further and completely subtract an influential person with connections and a unique outlook for a commanding military officer, there's no telling how completely different things might turn out. He could've made things better, he could've made them worse (i.e. Atlantis could've been destroyed with him around instead of lasting for 48,000 years). We can't know.

Doll-of-Broken-Glass
March 18th, 2008, 06:55 PM
Exactly. Loosing Sheppard to the distant future didn't drop the galaxy into chaos. However, learning about everything that happened gives him the chance to go back in time and change everything. It's a bit like SG-1 "2010" where a message was sent back in time.


well the reason everyone is centering this on Sheppard is because he's the main protagonist and thus the writing is all centered around him for the most part...

I'm with Danny on this one, I mean maybe there was NO way to save Teyla maybe Mackay just interperated it wrong maybe sheppard was supossed to get lost, maybe Mackay was suposed to you the after the fact info maybe sheppard was suposed to use that info to save her so maybe that was infact the way things where supposed to happen????? yes maybe?

desh
March 21st, 2008, 08:13 PM
I think all we can really say is that Rodney MAY have bought Teyla a little more time by trying to reach Shepherd. We don't know what kind of information Rodney has provided on the data crystal; so far all Shepherd has used is the location of one of Michael's labs.

We don't know how much of a setback destroying Michael's lab will be to him, possibly none at all if he is as resourceful as he is cryptically implied to me. Personally, I think that Michael leaving so much of his information so weakly guarded is either deliberate (the Wraith have voluntarily revealed information as a carrot to a trap before) or very stupid. Even if the place was booby-trapped, Michael should probably have had a better defense mechanism than just making the structure collapse.

To address the topic, whether Shepherd's presence had anything to do with the fate of the galaxy remains to be seen. Even if he had been there, we can't know whether his search for Teyla would have been successful. If this episode has any point or further repercussions besides just playing out a doomsday scenario to end the season in suspense, Shepherd's presence and the data that Rodney has given him must matter somehow.

Doll-of-Broken-Glass
March 21st, 2008, 09:00 PM
To address the topic, whether Shepherd's presence had anything to do with the fate of the galaxy remains to be seen. Even if he had been there, we can't know whether his search for Teyla would have been successful. If this episode has any point or further repercussions besides just playing out a doomsday scenario to end the season in suspense, Shepherd's presence and the data that Rodney has given him must matter somehow.

That's true, we don't know what's even on that crystal, it could be anything, (even a note saying...and yes McKay we/I/you still have hair), and ya I think they where trying to leave us hanging and have fun kill off EVERYONE!!!!!

ndeke
March 24th, 2008, 05:05 AM
Okay, sorry in advance if I repeat anything that was already said. Obviously I didn't take the time to read through the whole thread.

KindlyKeller's starting comment was very interesting and struck me as insightful. Thanks for sharing this point of view. It sure helped me to get to what I would regard the core of the problem: The writers of the show try to convince us that there is something fundamentally different about turning points involving time travel stories compared to the "normal" turning points in the rest of the story. Alternate reality storylines usually suffer from the same problem as do events that happen in the compressed time between "spelt out" plot. I guess it's a general problem of this particular kind of storytelling.

So let me elaborate a bit on this. The Stargate story is a rich and dense tale with an almost ridiculous amount of sudden turns and twists in the storyline. So we see lots of turning points, major decisive events that really change the fate of whole galaxies. On the other hand we are used to constantly shifting odds. An enemy's airtight ploy to annihilate earth is shattered just a few episodes later. Now when a time travel (or alternate reality) plot comes along suddenly the twisting path is narrowed down to a straight line usually right into an unpleasant outcome to say the least. Fortune as abandoned the (remaining) heroes who are degraded from prime movers and shakers to mere executors of a bleak future. Responsible for this development is a turn of events which we are asked to believe is more decisive than other twists we have witnessed before. So against better knowledge or maybe call it intuition we are asked to believe that after this turning point events are irreversible.

The problem is we usually fail to see the point. So what, one of the heroes goes missing, another one is dead, the evildoer obtains research that'll make him more powerful, we have seen things of this kind before, more importantly we have seen worse odds and still the heroes were able to turn events around. It is obvious that with the limitation to one episode the alternate outcome lacks the richness of what I before called the spelt out plot. So we naturally focus on the turning point to understand it's significance and I think in the case of this episode some people find that they are not satisfied by the explanations it offers and that leads them, again quite naturally, to identify the missing fortune with the missing hero. For the remaining heroes are just as smart, resourceful and determined as before so fortune is really what they lacked in the end. Maybe the episode should have played up Sheppard's integrating role. It sure seemed that everyone had their own little pet project and that they stopped really working together.

I guess what I want to say is that it's natural to assume Sheppard is portrayed as overwhelmingly important because of the general construction of these time travel plots and also because in this particular case for some people the plot fails to deliver enough plausibility to think otherwise. The observation that Sheppard mainly contributes by important information that he brings back is valid if one accepts the alternate outcome that the writers present us as is. From the meta perspective of the viewer it is maybe not such an obvious explanation for the reason that he is used to heroes handling bad odds like these.

JSPuddlejumper
March 24th, 2008, 08:14 AM
Kirk is gone.

Worf/Ronon of little use after that.

McKay/Spock is ineffectual without Kirk.

Uuhara (sp?)/Teyla babbling nonsense wont help anything.

norph
March 24th, 2008, 07:39 PM
I was thinking when they went to the base at that time instead of 2 months later and causing it to blow up, they would probably forced Michael to move to another base. That new location would be less secure and maybe more easily found than the one that was blown up (since in alternative timeline, they found it 2 months late). That relocation itself could cause Teyla and her baby to be found and rescued, and hence prevent the alternative timeline.

KindlyKeller
March 25th, 2008, 03:43 PM
Kirk is gone.

Worf/Ronon of little use after that.

McKay/Spock is ineffectual without Kirk.

Uuhara (sp?)/Teyla babbling nonsense wont help anything.

Um...................................... o.... kay.

KindlyKeller
March 25th, 2008, 03:45 PM
I was thinking when they went to the base at that time instead of 2 months later and causing it to blow up, they would probably forced Michael to move to another base. That new location would be less secure and maybe more easily found than the one that was blown up (since in alternative timeline, they found it 2 months late). That relocation itself could cause Teyla and her baby to be found and rescued, and hence prevent the alternative timeline.

Probably, which just makes my case that the information is the reason things will be different, not Sheppard's mere presence.