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CalmStorm
March 8th, 2008, 09:59 AM
Ancients and their next evolution, not so different after all ...

So, in the beginning there were ancients. Ancients accidentally created the wraith, fought a war and lost. Tucked tail and ran back home to another galaxy safe from the wraith. Left their accident/wraith to harm those innocent and unable to protect themselves.

Next evolution, humans find the ancient city of Atlantis. Begin messing with the balance in another galaxy. Intentionally experiment on a wraith, Michael, which goes horribly wrong and in essence is a huge accident/mistake. This groups mistakes has deep ramifications on a galaxy that is not their home. Unable to contain their accident, lose war, tuck tail and run home. Leaving their accident/Michael to harm those innocent and unable to protect themselves.

…is there any difference between those they condemned, the ancients, and themselves? A touch of hypocrisy?

Of course it's an alternate time line, but one that did occur and play out. Whose to say it would turn out any differently with or without Sheppard if Michael still succeeded in obtaining Teyla’s baby and perfecting his method of madness.

Ltcolshepjumper
March 8th, 2008, 10:02 AM
I think its credible to say that. After all, humans are merely Ancients without the physiological advancements (including the gene) and technology.

jasminaGo
March 8th, 2008, 10:16 AM
I guess you're right. Experimenting on Michael was always a gray area between right and wrong. The humans are starting to act more and more like the Ancients, thinking that as long as they get results they can justify the means without really considering the consequences.

s09119
March 8th, 2008, 10:24 AM
Ancients and their next evolution, not so different after all ...

So, in the beginning there were ancients. Ancients accidentally created the wraith, fought a war and lost. Tucked tail and ran back home to another galaxy safe from the wraith. Left their accident/wraith to harm those innocent and unable to protect themselves.

Next evolution, humans find the ancient city of Atlantis. Begin messing with the balance in another galaxy. Intentionally experiment on a wraith, Michael, which goes horribly wrong and in essence is a huge accident/mistake. This groups mistakes has deep ramifications on a galaxy that is not their home. Unable to contain their accident, lose war, tuck tail and run home. Leaving their accident/Michael to harm those innocent and unable to protect themselves.

…is there any difference between those they condemned, the ancients, and themselves? A touch of hypocrisy?

Of course it's an alternate time line, but one that did occur and play out. Whose to say it would turn out any differently with or without Sheppard if Michael still succeeded in obtaining Teyla’s baby and perfecting his method of madness.

You know, in all my time debating about how humans are no better than the Ancients, I never thought to mention Michael. Green for you!

Heaven
March 8th, 2008, 11:09 AM
there is a bit of difference though

the ancients made the wraith by accident
we made Michael on purpose

when the ancients left the humans were still alive, and even had civilizations and a few generations of peace between Wraith hibernation periods

when we left, they were completely exterminated

overall, I'd say the ancients did better :)

Corgano
March 8th, 2008, 11:13 AM
there is a bit of difference though

the ancients made the wraith by accident
we made Michael on purpose


Not really. They wanted to turn him permanently into a human. But "by accident" they created a hybrid. ;)

MathiasE
March 8th, 2008, 11:24 AM
Not really. They wanted to turn him permanently into a human. But "by accident" they created a hybrid. ;)

Still an intentional experiment though ;)

jasminaGo
March 8th, 2008, 11:36 AM
there is a bit of difference though

the ancients made the wraith by accident
we made Michael on purpose

when the ancients left the humans were still alive, and even had civilizations and a few generations of peace between Wraith hibernation periods

when we left, they were completely exterminated

overall, I'd say the ancients did better :)

But the Ancients created the Replicators how killed hundreds of thousands of humans.

Off course, we're the one who turned them on.

So you're right, they did better. :)

RepliVeggie
March 8th, 2008, 11:45 AM
there is a bit of difference though

the ancients made the wraith by accident
we made Michael on purpose

when the ancients left the humans were still alive, and even had civilizations and a few generations of peace between Wraith hibernation periods

when we left, they were completely exterminated

overall, I'd say the ancients did better :)


Naw the Wraith had taken every planet they said. There was likely barely anyone left alive. After they war they realized they better stop and go to sleep or their food supply would end.

2ndgenerationalteran
March 8th, 2008, 01:17 PM
I always thought they did not create the wraith but allow them evolve from the Iratus bug. They had no reason to make the wraith.

We tried and succeeded in making Michael.


They created the replicators but they tried to put a stop to them.

We reactivated the replicators and stopped them, but we made Michael and only 1 person and their ship made an effort to stop him, the Tauri as a whole did not want to expend their resources to correct their mistake.


They left when it looked like they were the only people able to fight.

We may have left when there were still some humans around, but we would have had the capacity to take Michael down. In 25 years we could have built a fleet of 304s and some 305s that would have matched Michael's fleet of hives in number and exceeded them in individual strength.

IMO human kind in general is WORSE than the Ancients.

xSFx
March 8th, 2008, 01:48 PM
The Ancients did not create the wraith afaik.
Some poor ancient got eaten by an Iratus bug who then assimilated his DNA.

CalmStorm
March 9th, 2008, 06:22 PM
IMO human kind in general is WORSE than the Ancients.

Possibly.

However, I think they are equally the same still. I can understand the "non-interference" policy that the ascended ancients have, but I think that once they initially ascended they had an obligation to right some of their wrongs.

For example, once ascended, they should have been able to solve the wraith issue. They are the ones that "seeded" the Pegasus Galaxy and they are the ones who failed to protect, in essence, their children. They allowed a big bad monster to devour them and tucked tail and ran. Why not take care of something of their own doing once they reached the ability to do so.

Their interference should be limited to something like the above. Should they interfere when the SG team ticked off the replicators, another one of their creations, and re-wrote their base code. Big fat "no". In this case, the replicators were minding their own business and basically secluded and not harming anyone.

So, I still think they are equal in their screw-ups and running. They did not intentionally create the wraith, but it was their negligence that contributed to their creation. I would think that they had an obligation to the worlds they seeded to protect them. The SG team never intended to create a monster in Michael, but that's exactly what happen through their carelessness in carrying out the experiment. Both groups are running from their mistakes and allowing innocent cultures to be the victims.

RepliVeggie
March 9th, 2008, 07:02 PM
Possibly.

However, I think they are equally the same still. I can understand the "non-interference" policy that the ascended ancients have, but I think that once they initially ascended they had an obligation to right some of their wrongs.

For example, once ascended, they should have been able to solve the wraith issue. They are the ones that "seeded" the Pegasus Galaxy and they are the ones who failed to protect, in essence, their children. They allowed a big bad monster to devour them and tucked tail and ran. Why not take care of something of their own doing once they reached the ability to do so.

Their interference should be limited to something like the above. Should they interfere when the SG team ticked off the replicators, another one of their creations, and re-wrote their base code. Big fat "no". In this case, the replicators were minding their own business and basically secluded and not harming anyone.

So, I still think they are equal in their screw-ups and running. They did not intentionally create the wraith, but it was their negligence that contributed to their creation. I would think that they had an obligation to the worlds they seeded to protect them. The SG team never intended to create a monster in Michael, but that's exactly what happen through their carelessness in carrying out the experiment. Both groups are running from their mistakes and allowing innocent cultures to be the victims.


The Ancients refuse to interfere in fear that they will be worshipped and start gaining power and end up just like the Ori. They likely fear they won't be able to withstand the temptation once they have a taste of that power.

BubblingOverWithIdeas
March 9th, 2008, 07:47 PM
Some peoples do worship the Ancients. Athosians, Daganians, Sodan, possibly others. Proculans worship Athar.

The Prophet
March 9th, 2008, 07:52 PM
Ancients came along, made a some fatal mistakes. Fled.

Humans came along, made the fatal mistakes even worse...

Also, by destroying the Asurans, it removed one of the only Superpowers against the Wraith/ Michael. We disrupted the balance! :eek:

2ndgenerationalteran
March 10th, 2008, 02:23 AM
Revere and worship are different things and using the power their worship brings and just letting its sit unused are possibilities. Remember when the ancients ascended they joined a collective, one that may have existed for billions of years with thousands of other species that enforced the code of non interference and the ancients may actually be a minority and cannot turn the rest, and to exist with them they must oblidge to the rules. the "others" may have prevented the ancients from using their new powers to right their wrongs, and even if they helped the others may have done to all the ancients what they did to Orlin and Chaya.

Xaeden
March 10th, 2008, 12:25 PM
there is a bit of difference though

the ancients made the wraith by accident
we made Michael on purpose

when the ancients left the humans were still alive, and even had civilizations and a few generations of peace between Wraith hibernation periods

when we left, they were completely exterminated

overall, I'd say the ancients did better :)

Also, the Ancients only left after they had no means to fight back anymore. They fought until almost everything but Atlantis was gone and even then they stayed for years under the siege. In the end their population deminished to the point where everyone could fit in Atlantis on their way to Earth and all they had left were supply ships and one working battleship that we know of. When they fled, they did so thinking to rebuild their civilization and hoped to one day return. There was nothing they could do in Pegasus. They couldn't grow, they couldn't safely build resources to continue fighting...But they could do that int he Milky Way and one day have enough resources to defeat the Wraith which I assume was their goal only because they purposely left Atlantis for their people to return to. But of course all that changed back on Earth. They were too advanced to start over from scratch and seemed to have been hoping to find the technology of their ancestors waiting for them. So their original actions up until their giving up on Earth were quite noble. They could've given up on the Humans in the first place and just protected themselves, but they seem to have tried everything they could until the bitter end.

Earth, meanwhile, gave up without so much as a peep, once the Phoenix was lost. It became all about protecting their assets at the cost of lives. Maybe they didn't think it was their fault - Weir made the call to experiment on Michael and they have a habit of using those in command as scape goats whenever a decision ends with bad results. But even if that weren't case, they would've given up just as quickly. To a degree, I can understand them feeling that they couldn't do anything to defeat Michael with their limited fleet, but they didn't even make an effort to protect the Wraith when Michael swooped in. They could've tried to join forces with them and worked to involve the Travellers (I get that Sheppard was their connection to them, but if it was important to them they could've worked it out given that this was the best opportunity for them to strike out and be rid of Michael and later the weakened Wraith). I find it hard to believe that these combined forces couldn't have given Michael's fleet a run for his money and although the Wraith factions probably wouldn't have united their fleet, given their lack of food, Atlantis could've worked more closely with the Wraith to come up with a cure to help bring more Wraith ships to the cause. There are so many things they could've done, but instead they distanced themselves from almost the very beginning.

garhkal
March 11th, 2008, 08:04 PM
I guess you're right. Experimenting on Michael was always a gray area between right and wrong. The humans are starting to act more and more like the Ancients, thinking that as long as they get results they can justify the means without really considering the consequences.

Which is why i feel we are getting worse than them. At least the ancients stopped stuff when they found out the concequences. Look to that tumor machine. They stuffed it away in a store room never to get used again. We reactivated it and lost carson. Project Acturus. They stopped before they destroyed the place. WE did not.
The asurans. They tried to whipe them out and also had blocks in place to keep them contained. WE released them to scour the galaxy..

CalmStorm
March 12th, 2008, 04:56 PM
Which is why i feel we are getting worse than them. At least the ancients stopped stuff when they found out the concequences. Look to that tumor machine. They stuffed it away in a store room never to get used again. We reactivated it and lost carson. Project Acturus. They stopped before they destroyed the place. WE did not.
The asurans. They tried to whipe them out and also had blocks in place to keep them contained. WE released them to scour the galaxy..

I don't think we can be entirely certain that they "stopped" stuff. It seems a very real possibility that they were forced to stop and drop all projects when they evacuated back to Earth. Most of the stuff that the SG teams have gotten into look like unfinished projects.

Ltcolshepjumper
March 12th, 2008, 05:02 PM
Ancients came along, made a some fatal mistakes. Fled.

Humans came along, made the fatal mistakes even worse...

Also, by destroying the Asurans, it removed one of the only Superpowers against the Wraith/ Michael. We disrupted the balance! :eek:

Before we let them loose on the Wraith, the Asurans weren't superpowers, because they weren't involved. The Asurans themselves, who were just as bad as Michael, disrupted the balance.

garhkal
March 12th, 2008, 07:29 PM
But who let the asurans do the disrupting>>?? US!