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IrishPisano
March 8th, 2008, 05:21 AM
Be All My Sins Remember'd was a season finale...

Last Man was crap



John Sheppard magically travelling 48,000 yrs into the future... then magically travelling back...

NOTHING ELSE HAPPENED!!!!!

everything that holo-rodney talked about didn't happen... so if you look at it, all we had was an episode where john goes forward in time and comes back... that's it.


how the bleep is that a season finale?


this was, at best, a mid-season episode...


and further proof that SGA is going down the toilet...

I_C_Ancients
March 8th, 2008, 05:46 AM
Be All My Sins Remember'd was a season finale...

Last Man was crap



John Sheppard magically travelling 48,000 yrs into the future... then magically travelling back...

NOTHING ELSE HAPPENED!!!!!

everything that holo-rodney talked about didn't happen... so if you look at it, all we had was an episode where john goes forward in time and comes back... that's it.


how the bleep is that a season finale?


this was, at best, a mid-season episode...


and further proof that SGA is going down the toilet...'

I think you're wrong bout that cos they now have shown a possible future for Atlantis and that is imo very cool:jonas: And also there are some huge character developements in this ep espessialy JM's Character:ronan:

Also YOU are looking from a very high perspective you can also say: Atlantis: Beginning: going to Pegasus Ending: leaving Pegasus. You're not looking at the details of a show. WHICH ARE VERY IMPORTANT!!!!!:)

MartianManhunter
March 8th, 2008, 05:47 AM
What are you talking about?

This was, in my opinion the best finale SGA has had since The Siege Part 1. Yes, technically nothing that occured in that timeline has happened in this one but that doesnt mean it wont happen at all. Many of the events that happened their could still happen here and the whole point of the episode was to show how much we screwed up and how we wanted to change things.

And he didnt magically travel to the future and back. Its a fact that slar flares can have odd effects on wormhole travel including propelling a traveler throuhg into the past or the future.

Dr.Mckay
March 8th, 2008, 06:01 AM
Yes indeed, this episode was AWESOMEE.
altho they shouldnt have used the solar flare thing lol

Korean_Turtle87
March 8th, 2008, 06:05 AM
I kind of agree. Last Man was a great episode. It was amazing. But the ending sucked.

Pharaoh Atem
March 8th, 2008, 06:08 AM
I kind of agree. Last Man was a great episode. It was amazing. But the ending sucked.

right now it's sucks and it might pplay well in season 5 search and rescue :)

IrishPisano
March 8th, 2008, 06:11 AM
1. i know how he got to the future... as, thanks to 1969, i understand the effects of the solar flare... i guess i would have liked to have a little explanation as to why he went 48,000 years instead of 50 or 60...

2. i'm not a big fan of "possible futures" storylines... because it either becomes a MacBethian self-fulfilling prophecy... or simply by knowing the future has made that future cease to exist... the complete opposite of MacBeth's prophecy

3. since, technically, nothing happened in the episode... there was no actual character development... what we saw was POSSIBLE development, but at the end of the episode, none of that happened... so all that trutly did happen in the episode was Sheppard went forward in time, and went back in time... that's it... everything else that sheppard was told... did
not
happen
ergo, nothing happened... there was no true canon character development, as the characters actually did not develop...

and the cliffhanger was more of a street-curb hanger... i felt no suspense... no anxiousness for season 5 to come...



i guess SG-1 just got me used to large-scale, well written, season finales...
and with SGA's comparatively sub-par writing, it really isn't a surprise... just a bit of a let down

especially when Be All My Sins Remember'd...... or even Midway were more appropriate for season finales imho...

gpaste
March 8th, 2008, 06:13 AM
I dont think this was bad at all we have now seen a possible version of events that could still happen even with sheppard in the timeline plus i thought there was some really good sfx in the episode and now we know what to expect with season 5 with the fact that some of those events will happen in the future so the writers can go into more detail with storys in season 5 so yeh the best season finale since the siege part 2.

Pharaoh Atem
March 8th, 2008, 06:19 AM
the time i was thinking this could have been a wonder to end the series. it really gave what could have been wonderful closer for everyone

Chaser
March 8th, 2008, 06:23 AM
I loved this finale, after being disapointed somewhat with Season 4 in general this makes me optimistic for S5. So often this show ends with things neatly resolved, it's nice to see everything so unclear. EVERYTHING is up in the air, and I like my finales to open doors. Let's hope TPTB do a good job taking things in what seems to be a totally different direction.

*is hopeful*

:S

gpaste
March 8th, 2008, 06:26 AM
in fact sheppard didnt just go forward and back again in time, he went forward in time found out that everything goes bad (cause lets face it even if he was there it will still happen) retrieves information from holo mckay where to find teyla aswell as other information on that crystall holo mckay gave him (cos there was more than just the location of were teyla is on that crystal) then he came back to save teyla. but obviously they where not at that location yet and micheal still plans to wipe out the wraith and half the human population so there was a lot of character development in the episode but it just hasnt happened yet (granted some events may not happen but some things would cos it can happen sheppard can only change what he will do to stop it so bring on season 5 cant wait and i live in england so we aint gonna get till october so think yourselfs lucky if you live in the states).

Stormtrooper
March 8th, 2008, 06:35 AM
Last Man is filler disguised as season finale. Waste of time!

ToasterOnFire
March 8th, 2008, 06:37 AM
To be honest, I haven't been blown away by any of SGA's finales outside of perhaps First Strike.

I will say that this one had the least amount of suspense and a rather mediocre cliffhanger ending.

Suzotchka
March 8th, 2008, 06:38 AM
I absolutely agree. The finale is total crapola. I've seen mid season finale's that were better than this.

McSwift
March 8th, 2008, 06:42 AM
Be All My Sins Remember'd was a season finale...

Last Man was crap

John Sheppard magically travelling 48,000 yrs into the future... then magically travelling back...

NOTHING ELSE HAPPENED!!!!!

and further proof that SGA is going down the toilet...

[mod snip]

This was BY FAR THE BEST TIME TRAVEL EPISODE EVER!!!

Not only he went into the future, but there was stories from each character and what happened after everyone had thought Sheppard was gone. Not to mention it probably gave us an alternate feel what the future could possibly be like.

I can almost think that Michael is like Anubis. Strong and smart!

The Phoenix kicked ass!

LoneStar1836
March 8th, 2008, 06:42 AM
Agreed. Waste of an episode.

g.o.d
March 8th, 2008, 06:50 AM
what was the meaning of this episode? I'm not saying it was a bad episode. I actually liked it. Seeing Teyla's corpse was priceless:) CGI was great, Phoenix exiting hyperspace, etc. But nothing actually happened, and that's the problem. I would rather see that alternate timeline (which was really interesting) with Sheppard instead of this one.

and I wanted to see future Earth(48000 years in the future) :(

-fallen-one-
March 8th, 2008, 07:03 AM
huh i kinda liked this episode ... Mobeius, 1969 meets Unending kinda style. Sheppard used some of O'Neill usual lines (World Series Cup) ... It's cool to see what could have happen if Michael had the baby, so YES there was the point of this episode. (and Carter died, OMG, that was so ... :( )

All in all, was awesome episode, it did WOW effect on me ... :D

(i still can't stand Woolsey!!)

Stormtrooper
March 8th, 2008, 07:08 AM
It all comes down to having no valuable opponent anymore. With both the Wraith and the Asuran out of the picture, what's left? Idiotic Michael and Teyla's miracle child? Dear Lord! :rolleyes:

What's the purpose of this show right now? Fight genetic experiments in a galaxy far, far away. Give me a break!

TOIVA
March 8th, 2008, 07:16 AM
I kind of agree. Last Man was a great episode. It was amazing. But the ending sucked.
I can agree with that, it was an extraordinarily good episode, but not a cliffhanger at all. ;);)And the ending was really bad (I mean the CGI of the destruction of the building was really badly done.:S:S:S:S) as we know, the team must survive, so I see any suspense at all. I'm just interested in what of the other timeline will happen.;)


and I wanted to see future Earth(48000 years in the future) :(
That would be to difficult to do, and I think there could be just desert as well, or no atmosphere at all. They couln't do it differently if they wanted to show Earth 48 000 years in the future.

And didn't you like the equipment McKay used in round 2020 (25 years in the future)???:):)

g.o.d
March 8th, 2008, 07:21 AM
That would be to difficult to do, and I think there could be just desert as well, or no atmosphere at all. They couln't do it differently if they wanted to show Earth 48 000 years in the future.

And didn't you like the equipment McKay used in round 2020 (25 years in the future)???:):)

or at least one tiny ship from the future. It would be nice to see it.

and I like it. It was nice

gange57
March 8th, 2008, 07:27 AM
Agreed.

The problem with this episode is that it could have easily aired earlier in the season and it wouldn't felt out of place. Finales should feel epic. Something that leaves people on the edge of their seat. It's hard to accomplish this when most of the episode is focused on an alternate timeline.

So, S5 starts out with Shep, Ronon, McKay and Lorne in a collapsed building. Where's the suspense? We know that JF, JM, and DH are all signed for S5. The only real question is will Lorne survive. While I like Lorne, I personally don't see him as a big loss if he were to die. Though, it would be ironic if Lorne dies so earlier in this timeline when he made General in another.

M&M just aren't very good at creating the build-up and suspense necessary for a finale. I got the same feeling in TMC. Both were bland and lacked the "finale feel" that The Storm or First Strike had in spades. It will be interesting to see how MG salvages this mess.

On a side note, it is a bit disappointing that Michael is digressing into a 2D character. We get it, Michael's evil! Now how about developing the character instead of turning him into Space Hitler. Maybe, next season Mikey will kick a puppy. :eek:

keppiezbt
March 8th, 2008, 07:32 AM
i thought it was a decent finale but it did lack the suspense...

one thing that bothered me was that in the future u never find out how it ends...like mckay says "you know whats happening in this galaxy" to lorne.


well what is it? McKay of 25 yrs in the future would have known what the situation was...why not tell sheppard? yeah so i went back to atlantis..we were still there but michael controlled everything else..


or in a good act of forshadowing talking about weir and her replicators...

The premise was good but I think they could have made it more intricate and layered as well as really forshadowing a lot of season 5 in a unique way

metabog
March 8th, 2008, 07:49 AM
Well think of it this way, the last time we had a glimpse of the future it actually happened exactly the way it was in the glimpse. Who knows, this episode could be a key episode for all the series, the next season could be about what happens differently than in Sheppard's adventure, or it could go down exactly the same way.

But this episode was awesome and a bit of a tear jerker (rodney saying he was going insane was just so... well it was great character development). This season has really taken thins up a notch, it's like DS9 becoming way better and more serious in it's 3rd season.

It was a fitting end to a season where:

(and I will say "we" because it's... well us)
-we completely destroyed one of our main enemies, the replicators.
-we lost: Dr. Weir, Heightmeyer, we got a glimpse of Sam dying to take down wraith ships, we got a glimpse of Jennifer dying (as an after effect of the war mind you, which is ironic as she was trying to stop the very same substance that killed her).
-the replicators completely annihilated countless worlds, they were unstoppable
-the wraith basically lost the whole war, and Michael rose to power.

What exactly did we do last season?

...pretty much nothing... Carson's death was the only bit of hope for a better darker season. As sad as it was, this whole darkness and gloom saved atlantis.

SGFerrit
March 8th, 2008, 07:51 AM
It all comes down to having no valuable opponent anymore. With both the Wraith and the Asuran out of the picture, what's left? Idiotic Michael and Teyla's miracle child? Dear Lord! :rolleyes:


Um... what?! Michael is probably the smartest, most interesting and most developed character in the franchise, or atleast Atlantis.

I totally disagree that this was the worst finale ever. IMO it was the best. Allies is the worst IMO, but that was still pretty good.

Briangate78
March 8th, 2008, 07:56 AM
On a side note, it is a bit disappointing that Michael is digressing into a 2D character. We get it, Michael's evil! Now how about developing the character instead of turning him into Space Hitler. Maybe, next season Mikey will kick a puppy. :eek:

2D character? Wha? That is something I truly totally disagree with.

Suzotchka
March 8th, 2008, 08:03 AM
Todd is overused, Michael's storyline is predictable. I'm just waiting to hear that Michael somehow took the form of Kannan and really is the father of Teyla's child.

And whatever happened to not altering the timeline? If that's what truly happened, you can't just go back and change things because you didn't like the ending of it all!

The_Carpenter
March 8th, 2008, 08:06 AM
Todd is overused, Michael's storyline is predictable. I'm just waiting to hear that Michael somehow took the form of Kannan and really is the father of Teyla's child.

And whatever happened to not altering the timeline? If that's what truly happened, you can't just go back and change things because you didn't like the ending of it all!

Well you can if you have a means of travelling through time.

Is it the right thing to do? well thats a whole other kettle of fish :S

Southern Red
March 8th, 2008, 08:06 AM
2D character? Wha? That is something I truly totally disagree with.

Somebody on another forum said Michael is becoming a "moustache twirler" like from the old Perils of Pauline serial. I think that would put him into 2D territory. Although I do think he is acting logically considering what they did to him. But his behavior last night with the head was just OTT to me. How long before he goes "bwah ha ha"?

The Signal
March 8th, 2008, 08:07 AM
On a side note, it is a bit disappointing that Michael is digressing into a 2D character. We get it, Michael's evil! Now how about developing the character instead of turning him into Space Hitler. Maybe, next season Mikey will kick a puppy. :eek:

Indeed, and the fact that there's so much potential to make him a top villain, but instead all we get is 99% "mwhahaha", with 1% "poor me" just shows the lack of quality writing. It's sad, it really is, but until TPTB stop basking in their own glory for a second, they'll never regain the quality they once had.

This finale, whilst not the worst finale ever (though all of Atlantis' other than "The Siege" have been poor) it's a strong contender. This, on top of the rest of this bloody awful season is enough for me to say "sod it". I won't watch S5 unless there is massive improvement, and considering the fact that this is the fourth year running they've churned out sub-par programming, I don't see that happening.

metabog
March 8th, 2008, 08:07 AM
Todd is overused, Michael's storyline is predictable. I'm just waiting to hear that Michael somehow took the form of Kannan and really is the father of Teyla's child.

And whatever happened to not altering the timeline? If that's what truly happened, you can't just go back and change things because you didn't like the ending of it all!

Why not? It's not fair towards the wraith? :mckay:

Ltcolshepjumper
March 8th, 2008, 08:11 AM
Um... what?! Michael is probably the smartest, most interesting and most developed character in the franchise, or atleast Atlantis.

I totally disagree that this was the worst finale ever. IMO it was the best. Allies is the worst IMO, but that was still pretty good.

I agree. However, i have the slightest feeling (ok, a pretty good feeling) that Michael's going to be axed early on, probably Seasrch and rescue, or some other time in the first half.

Briangate78
March 8th, 2008, 08:12 AM
Somebody on another forum said Michael is becoming a "moustache twirler" like from the old Perils of Pauline serial. I think that would put him into 2D territory. Although I do think he is acting logically considering what they did to him. But his behavior last night with the head was just OTT to me. How long before he goes "bwah ha ha"?

There is just so much depth to Michael. Outcasted from the humans and wraith, misunderstood. He loses his mind, creates these hybrids to get even with the Wraith and Humans. Uses the Hoffen drug not to just kill humans and Wraith but to find out the strong humans so he could make them into Hybrids to serve his cause. Michael never asked for this, it was the fault of both humans and Wraith for what they did to him. We could of had an ally after "No Man's Land" but Atlantis decided to deceive him yet again. Michael is an intelligent, ruthless, persuasive person. It's not just here is a bad guy killing humans and Wraith, there is so much more behind it.

Stormtrooper
March 8th, 2008, 08:13 AM
Um... what?! Michael is probably the smartest, most interesting and most developed character in the franchise, or atleast Atlantis.

I totally disagree that this was the worst finale ever. IMO it was the best. Allies is the worst IMO, but that was still pretty good.

Evil Tucker doesn't convince me. He should be less than the Genii in the show, but the writers are gradually transforming the guy into the main enemy. That's crazy! About Michael being "the smartest, most interesting and most developed character in the franchise," don't make me laugh!

jdog
March 8th, 2008, 08:33 AM
2020? that would be 13 years into the future.

try more like 2030.

It did end kinda anti-climatically but showing how bad michael is, that is is capable of following through, really upped the anti.

If SGA gets its full run we only have 2 more seasons after season 5 and the universe is really messed up right now.

I think it was a great episode, if anything I think they could have put more and streached it out over 3 episodes. See some of the future in 50,000 years, see why the sgc had a facist feel to it, maybe find out micheal caused the glitch not mckay (or zalenka), they could have done more but it still was pretty great.

jdog
March 8th, 2008, 08:38 AM
I love the fact that the worst enemy in the PG galaxy the sgc created!!!

We really outdid the ancients in their mistakes now.

Southern Red
March 8th, 2008, 09:27 AM
There is just so much depth to Michael. Outcasted from the humans and wraith, misunderstood. He loses his mind, creates these hybrids to get even with the Wraith and Humans. Uses the Hoffen drug not to just kill humans and Wraith but to find out the strong humans so he could make them into Hybrids to serve his cause. Michael never asked for this, it was the fault of both humans and Wraith for what they did to him. We could of had an ally after "No Man's Land" but Atlantis decided to deceive him yet again. Michael is an intelligent, ruthless, persuasive person. It's not just here is a bad guy killing humans and Wraith, there is so much more behind it.

Maybe they should let you write S5. I doubt he'll be written as you describe, but we can always hope. *sigh*

Jackie
March 8th, 2008, 09:40 AM
To me...it was just boring. No suspense, everyone that died was nothing more than a plot device. Atlantis abandoned was just boring too.

Sheppard's only fight was with a standstorm. :mckay:

there could have been an interesting plot if Sheppard only went 40 years into the future and meet Teyla's child as an adult. Found Micheal....as the ruling system lord or something. I think if Micheal told Shep how he killed everyone it would have been more dramatic.

The child could have been pivotal in providing a reason for Shep to go back and change the future...against Micheal's hybrid soldiers who were attacking them or something.

But instead we got...ho hum, everyone dies and the child's genetic code is the reason why.

Ya know, shep could have gone back in time and just prevented Teyla from getting pregnant in the first place...that would have done the same thing. Maybe kill of Kanan instead of Carson?

dasNdanger
March 8th, 2008, 09:47 AM
Best.... Finale.... EVER....

Fixed that for ya!

;)

It was an amazing episode. We get to see the 'what ifs' - and some of them were absolutely gutting, while others - inspiring.

Teyla - a woman who cherished her people and her friends - dies all alone, slaughtered by a madman.

Sam - a true fighter not intimidated by the odds, takes down so many with her in a final moment of glory.

Ronon and Todd - two world-weary warriors, putting aside their differences and fighting together as brothers-in-arms right down to the end.

Rodney - finds love only to lose it, but in the face of loss finds his inspiration.

And ALL of that is going to happen just as we saw it...that is, if Teyla is not found, and John is not rescued. We've seen the future - we've seen what some of our favorite characters are really made of...and now, in the next season - if and when things are reversed - we must decide which future we prefer.


das

TheLastSunset
March 8th, 2008, 10:49 AM
Fixed that for ya!

;)

It was an amazing episode. We get to see the 'what ifs' - and some of them were absolutely gutting, while others - inspiring.

Teyla - a woman who cherished her people and her friends - dies all alone, slaughtered by a madman.

Sam - a true fighter not intimidated by the odds, takes down so many with her in a final moment of glory.

Ronon and Todd - two world-weary warriors, putting aside their differences and fighting together as brothers-in-arms right down to the end.

Rodney - finds love only to lose it, but in the face of loss finds his inspiration.

And ALL of that is going to happen just as we saw it...that is, if Teyla is not found, and John is not rescued. We've seen the future - we've seen what some of our favorite characters are really made of...and now, in the next season - if and when things are reversed - we must decide which future we prefer.


das
Exactly.

kymeric
March 8th, 2008, 11:08 AM
Be All My Sins Remember'd was a season finale...

Last Man was crap



John Sheppard magically travelling 48,000 yrs into the future... then magically travelling back...

NOTHING ELSE HAPPENED!!!!!

everything that holo-rodney talked about didn't happen... so if you look at it, all we had was an episode where john goes forward in time and comes back... that's it.


how the bleep is that a season finale?


this was, at best, a mid-season episode...


and further proof that SGA is going down the toilet...

Actually... they did alot. They showe EXACTLY what will happen if they dont stop michael and save teyla. Much better than an over dramatic threat delivered by a bad guy.

Plus that was freaking cool seeing atlantis on a dead world.

JSPuddlejumper
March 8th, 2008, 11:15 AM
I liked the episode, however it was not as good as BAMSR'd or Midway.

If they got rid of that 'rescue' mission for Teyla at the very end, then the episode would have been truly great, right up there with the best.

DigiFluid
March 8th, 2008, 11:20 AM
Worst.... Finale.... EVER....

Please see 'Out of Mind', 'Moebius', 'Unending', 'Allies' or 'First Strike' before making such grandiose statements.

See also: Shades of Gray (ST TNG), Learning Curve (ST VOY), Scorpion Pt 1 (ST VOY), Unimatrix Zero Pt 1 (ST VOY), Endgame (ST VOY), Zero Hour (ST ENT), These Are The Voyages... (ST ENT), Gethsemane (X Files)

DigiFluid
March 8th, 2008, 11:21 AM
I liked the episode, however it was not as good as BAMSR'd or Midway.

If they got rid of that 'rescue' mission for Teyla at the very end, then the episode would have been truly great, right up there with the best.

Indeed. Had they opted to end it with Sheppard's return through the gate and the "we're on the clock" line it would have been a 'great' season finale, rather than just being 'good'.

Mitchell82
March 8th, 2008, 11:22 AM
1. i know how he got to the future... as, thanks to 1969, i understand the effects of the solar flare... i guess i would have liked to have a little explanation as to why he went 48,000 years instead of 50 or 60...
My parents would agree with you that the amount of time he warped to the future was a bit much but they'd disagree with the rest of this. Personally I liked it. It had tons of danger with Shep being all alone and was well done.


2. i'm not a big fan of "possible futures" storylines... because it either becomes a MacBethian self-fulfilling prophecy... or simply by knowing the future has made that future cease to exist... the complete opposite of MacBeth's prophecy
I like Macbeth.;) I can agree that it is a risky move but they've done it well before (2010 for example) and here.


3. since, technically, nothing happened in the episode... there was no actual character development... what we saw was POSSIBLE development, but at the end of the episode, none of that happened... so all that trutly did happen in the episode was Sheppard went forward in time, and went back in time... that's it... everything else that sheppard was told... did
not
happen
ergo, nothing happened... there was no true canon character development, as the characters actually did not develop...
First that was the whole point. The future got screwed up badly because of Shepard's disappearance so he had to try and fix it. Even though it didn't happen we got alot of insight into the characters. That does not mean nothing happened because one for Shep it did and two our characters are now in grave danger.


and the cliffhanger was more of a street-curb hanger... i felt no suspense... no anxiousness for season 5 to come...
So watching our characters getting blown up leaves no anxiety for the conclusion for you at all? It did for me.




i guess SG-1 just got me used to large-scale, well written, season finales...
and with SGA's comparatively sub-par writing, it really isn't a surprise... just a bit of a let down
I disagree as it's the same writers and both shows have done very well especially with finales.


especially when Be All My Sins Remember'd...... or even Midway were more appropriate for season finales imho...
BAMSR or Midway? They were good but not for season finale.

Lord Balls
March 8th, 2008, 11:26 AM
WOW, felt like a bad star trek episode. Atlantis has officially jumped the shark.

ToasterOnFire
March 8th, 2008, 11:46 AM
Somebody on another forum said Michael is becoming a "moustache twirler" like from the old Perils of Pauline serial. I think that would put him into 2D territory.
You saw that post too? :D I'm waiting for Michael to tie up Teyla on some PG railroad tracks and rub his hands, cackling evilly, as the train approaches. Can our heroes save her in time??? :rolleyes:

DigiFluid
March 8th, 2008, 12:10 PM
What a terrific 100th episode that would make. Especially if it was done entirely in black and white.

Hah

Southern Red
March 8th, 2008, 12:12 PM
You saw that post too? :D I'm waiting for Michael to tie up Teyla on some PG railroad tracks and rub his hands, cackling evilly, as the train approaches. Can our heroes save her in time??? :rolleyes:

And Rodney will be playing the maniacal piano music. Hee. I might even enjoy that.

Jackie
March 8th, 2008, 12:17 PM
You saw that post too? :D I'm waiting for Michael to tie up Teyla on some PG railroad tracks and rub his hands, cackling evilly, as the train approaches. Can our heroes save her in time??? :rolleyes:

that would have made it a little more exciting...lol.;)

The a flying squirrel and talking moose...TNT...you get the picture.

dasNdanger
March 8th, 2008, 12:27 PM
Regarding complaints about Michael...

Some things to keep in mind.

First, this episode was NOT about Michael. It was about the Lanteans, and what became of them. There was no time for any in-depth study of Michael - we got that in Kindred (and previous Michael episodes). We know what he is - what his attitude is. All this episode needed to do was establish how far he'd gone, and how bad things have gotten since Sheppard's disappearance.

Think about it - Michael - once a Wraith who killed in order to give his body sustanence, now kills for the sheer pleasure of it, without physical hunger driving him on. Even in Kindred I still felt sympathy towards him, but in TLM, I lost all of that...he murdered for the sake of murdering...he's bloodthirsty and hateful and evil. They had to establish this with as few scenes as possible, and they did so quite well.

On the flip side, if the Lanteans are able to undo all of this - who knows what Michael will become. He may NOT become as evil as we saw in TLM - he may still have redemption...we just don't know - and will not know - until next season.

das

KindlyKeller
March 8th, 2008, 12:39 PM
Amazing finale. There seemed to be a great deal of positivity last night in the General thread, but that's getting drowned out now as usual.

I love alternate timeline stories myself, so I took to this quite easily. Sheppard's reactions in the cold start when he gets to Future Atlantis, especially when he steps outside and looks out over the desert, were just amazing. I thought Joe did a great job in this episode.

The alternate timeline glimpses were well-done, and I liked that we had a mix of the scenes being played out normally and McKay narrating over images.

I wish more of you could have enjoyed it, because the feeling I left that episode with was one of deep satisfaction, and it was quite nice. A great finale.

Jackie
March 8th, 2008, 01:01 PM
Regarding complaints about Michael...

Some things to keep in mind.

First, this episode was NOT about Michael. It was about the Lanteans, and what became of them. There was no time for any in-depth study of Michael - we got that in Kindred (and previous Michael episodes). We know what he is - what his attitude is. All this episode needed to do was establish how far he'd gone, and how bad things have gotten since Sheppard's disappearance.

Think about it - Michael - once a Wraith who killed in order to give his body sustanence, now kills for the sheer pleasure of it, without physical hunger driving him on. Even in Kindred I still felt sympathy towards him, but in TLM, I lost all of that...he murdered for the sake of murdering...he's bloodthirsty and hateful and evil. They had to establish this with as few scenes as possible, and they did so quite well.

On the flip side, if the Lanteans are able to undo all of this - who knows what Michael will become. He may NOT become as evil as we saw in TLM - he may still have redemption...we just don't know - and will not know - until next season.

das

It was???

They all died! How is that a story arc?

The synopsis was "Sheppard returns after another unsuccessful attempt to find Teyla and finds the city abandoned."

The arc is why the city was abandoned?

The city was abandon becuase sheppard went 45,000 years into the future.

Here the arc could have taken a few different roads. Instead, of finding out what happened to mankind...he found out through a hologram of mckay that after he went missing, everyone died. Everyone dyingis a plot device to move the story into the direction of Sheppard going back in time.

Then the plot turns back into...the search for teyla.

It wasn't about Micheal, the hybrids or most importantly...Teyl's baby or Teyla.

The whole ep was how everyone died 45,000 years ago and "Sheppard needs to go back press the old reset button.


nothing substantial there.

Homer 120
March 8th, 2008, 01:38 PM
Just watched it and it was a GREAT season finale! The thing that made it for me was the music at Carter's death scene and the CGI was AMAZING!

And I think some people missed the point of the whole episode, The whole point was John had returned which changed everything. Which was what MacKay was trying to do in the first place.

10/10 for this one!

Irish Eyes
March 8th, 2008, 01:38 PM
You saw that post too? :D I'm waiting for Michael to tie up Teyla on some PG railroad tracks and rub his hands, cackling evilly, as the train approaches. Can our heroes save her in time??? :rolleyes:

:lol: We need our manip queen...


Regarding the episode, this was the weakest of the four finales IMO. Not that it's a terrible episode, but in no way does it approach The Seige 2.

This type of episode is fun, but the whole point is they will go back and change things so it never happens. Therefore, I'm not invested in anything we saw. I know they'll save Teyla, and that means Ronon will never leave and be killed. They'll work on a cure for Keller. You get my drift. It all becomes a big "so what" for me. And that's why it shouldn't have been the finale.

A finale needs to have something that makes the audience eager to find out what happens next. Well, I'm sure they'll all survive and then go save Teyla, thus wiping out the future we've been shown. *shrug* Whatever.

I wanted something, oh I don't know, with more teeth to it? Give us some real consequences.

JSPuddlejumper
March 8th, 2008, 02:26 PM
Keep in mind, casual fans have no idea if some or any of the actors will be back.

But, the ending was too cheesy.

If they left it at John coming back...10/10 episode.

However, with the cheesy ending, I give it a 8/10.

elbo
March 8th, 2008, 02:36 PM
I don't know if this is the worst finale ever, but i know for sure that is not the best and i'm disappointed in their projections of future events. I also have a general reluctance against time travel plots, so here we go.

But the future developments:

1. Woolsey and the IOA, cutting back the PG funds, personal and humanitarian mission. This is very beliveble, i wonder why they didn't do it a long time ago. This is their policy, of inter-galactic raids and thefts, prejudicies against all individuals not-earth-born no matter of race or species. From IOA perspective, there is nothing more to be gained from PG, maby an Earth invasion, now that we have that fancy ships. There are only 2 decisions that an organisation such as IOA can take, with the advantage they have by keeping everything secret to the people they work for: 1) over-powering and raiding few planets that known to have ZPMs or hunting infos about ZPMs and obtaining the power requirments to bring Atlantis in a A51 warehouse. 2) if first option is not possible, keeping a limited scientific staff in Atlantis base and few guards, with no off-world atributions and game over. This is what IOA does and guess what, they DECIDE.

2. Lorne making general, is possible over time, but i really cannot see him leading SGC; he doesn't have the blink for it, same as Landry character; they are just background decoration, ok in military standards, but not at that level with the development the got.

3. Sam going rogue and making childish tactical mistakes, no chance in hell. She is a devoted military officer, with respect and discipline to the chain of command and while is possible to risk her life for a personal view or revolt, she wouldn't risk the life of an entire crew and a valuable piece of technology, by going alone against an unknown numers of hostils, after shady intel. Lame projection.

4. I didn't spoke much about Michael, but the writers are begining to piss me off with this super-villan and 'everyone else is stupid' obsession. A race or a species could acomplish galactic genocide or domination, but not a individual alone. Even if he has the knowlege, he would never have the resources to pull something like this, or the time for that matter when some many parties are aware and looking for him. Even if the Wraith are stupid enough to fall for it (with the repicators they joined forces to stop the common threat, which threaten their food supply not killing eachother when aware of an ouside threat), Atlantis under military management would never fall for it and let an individual with so few resoucers and still based on organic technology unshielded ships, give them the middle finger, while Daedalus and Apollo probably running cargo transports in MW. So not only that Michael galactic rise is unrealistic and poor written, but it became obsessive and i'm tired of it. I understand a 2 epidodes parter, but 4 consecutive episodes including a finale and a premiere about someone who says 2 lines/episodes and has a plan who may look interesting maby only for kids, is too much. The Wraith or the Asurans never got as much screen time in the all show and while i understand the desire for trying something new, get over it, geez!

5. McKay and Keller, why not. Esposure to the hoffan drug? It is radioactive now?

6. Ronon, training, fighting, shooting and blowing stuff is always possible.

Well, i said that it may not be the worst finale ever, because the 'Uneding' is a strong challanger. Let's give the viewers some artificial development of their favorite characters, using the time-travel or the paralell-reality crap and making ridiculosy artificial-looking old people who sounds exactly the same like their younger versions, just that they speak slowly. This is not my thing, i don't feel neither their drama or serenity, just the writers inability to develop the chracaters properly and inside the show without pressing forward button. And the paralell reality is worst, as they want to make us belive that right next door is another reality with just few variations from the current one and of course the same characters in a different scenario, like they even are born in 1 of 1 billion paralell realities.

But now they got the intel from the future and everything will be different because of a RANDOM solar flare. I liked the ending of the finale though, but in general i am disappointed with the conclusion of a great season and their best. I was able to digest 'Kindred' and Michael in it, but this is too much.

FallenAngelII
March 8th, 2008, 02:43 PM
It's not total crap but it's by far inferior to the previous 3 season finales.

There wasn't much drama as it was obvious John would make it back. After all, if he didn't, then everyone would be dead and the show would end. So we all knew he'd make it back.

All the episode had was John and Rodney chatting + "flashbacks" to what happened in the now alternate timeline. Interesting, fun, entertaining, sure. But yeah, filleresque.

And the end of the season was the entire building blowing up. And we know they won't kill them off now. It'd be illogical to kill off that many important characters (John, Rodney and Lorne).

So they all probably survived + scrapes. A big filler + suspense at the end since we don't know how they'll end up.

So, yeah, inferior to the previous finales.

It would've made a good filler episode. But as a finale, it's kinda meh.

DigiFluid
March 8th, 2008, 03:20 PM
but it's by far inferior to the previous 3 season finales.

I've seen this same sentiment around a few times and still haven't quite been able to wrap my head around it... 'Allies' was just painfully stupid, and 'First Strike' was an infuriating exercise in "let's see if we can stuff enough cool effects shots into one episode that they don't notice how staggeringly stupid the plot is for this episode."

Dumb rescue mission ending aside, this is easily the best Atlantis finale since "The Siege". All IMO though, of course.

FallenAngelII
March 8th, 2008, 03:24 PM
I've seen this same sentiment around a few times and still haven't quite been able to wrap my head around it... 'Allies' was just painfully stupid, and 'First Strike' was an infuriating exercise in "let's see if we can stuff enough cool effects shots into one episode that they don't notice how staggeringly stupid the plot is for this episode."

Dumb rescue mission ending aside, this is easily the best Atlantis finale since "The Siege". All IMO though, of course.
Yes, "Allies" was a big blah because they were blackmailed into getting tricked. But at least it and "First Strike" had an epic feel to it.

This one was filleresque + a quasi-epic finish that's not very epic. It didn't feel very season finalish at all.

A good episode is not necessarily a season finale.

Falcon Horus
March 8th, 2008, 04:15 PM
Teyla - a woman who cherished her people and her friends - dies all alone, slaughtered by a madman.

I could potentially see this happening, and wouldn't mind if it did... But at least have some reaction to it, and not a 2 second mention.


Sam - a true fighter not intimidated by the odds, takes down so many with her in a final moment of glory.

"A captain goes down with its ship" - she was no exception. She had no other choice but to die... choose to drive her wheels into the enemy. More like a last act...no heroics there. It would have been heroic if she had chosen to stay behind.


Ronon and Todd - two world-weary warriors, putting aside their differences and fighting together as brothers-in-arms right down to the end.

Again, they had no choice... they were pinned down.


Rodney - finds love only to lose it, but in the face of loss finds his inspiration.

Quite ridiculous how he doesn't have the same reaction after his friends/team mates die. Yeah, really believable...hence why if I were his teammember I wouldn't trust him with my life at all.


And ALL of that is going to happen just as we saw it...that is, if Teyla is not found, and John is not rescued. We've seen the future - we've seen what some of our favorite characters are really made of...and now, in the next season - if and when things are reversed - we must decide which future we prefer.

TPTB are too much of a coward to do anything they did in this alternate timeline. They would be left with no show to play with.

PG15
March 8th, 2008, 07:21 PM
Quite ridiculous how he doesn't have the same reaction after his friends/team mates die. Yeah, really believable...hence why if I were his teammember I wouldn't trust him with my life at all.

It was more the load of EVERYTHING that inspired him. Keller dying was just the last straw. Just when things were looking up after all the crap he had to put up with...this happens.



TPTB are too much of a coward to do anything they did in this alternate timeline. They would be left with no show to play with.

How is that cowerdice?

KindlyKeller
March 8th, 2008, 07:25 PM
It was more the load of EVERYTHING that inspired him. Keller dying was just the last straw. Just when things were looking up after all the crap he had to put up with...this happens.



Yeah. He could move on from all of that because he had her to live for, but when she was ripped away from him just like everything else had been, it was too much.

the fifth man
March 8th, 2008, 07:32 PM
Overall, I thought that "The Last Man" was a good season finale for SGA. I don't know if I would call it the best, but it was up there.

AutumnDream
March 8th, 2008, 08:12 PM
Actually... they did alot. They showe EXACTLY what will happen if they dont stop michael and save teyla. Much better than an over dramatic threat delivered by a bad guy.


A threat delivered by a collapsing 3D building (made of 3D graphics circa 2003) is so much more dramatic.

Yeah, it would have been a good finale had the last frame been John in the stasis pod. I actually would have been pretty interested in what happens next. Instead they completely blew it and ended the season with a question we all know the answer to. In a lighthearted show like this you can't hold the well being of the main characters over the audience's head time after time, it's not compelling in the slightest. Why do they - professional writers - still not get this? Throwing the question of "how will this play out" at the audience in the aformentioned manner would have been both classy and intriguing. Especially with such a myriad of potential outcomes. Instead we are left with two possibilities. A) One or all of the main characters are dead. B) All of the main characters miraculously survived a couple million pounds of brick and steel collapsing on them. Guess which it is!

OH NO TGHE TEAM WILL HTHEY BE DEAD OR WILL THEY SURVIE TUNE IN 2 SEASON VFIVRE TO FIN D OUT

shep's girl
March 8th, 2008, 09:51 PM
Be All My Sins Remember'd was a season finale...

Last Man was crap



John Sheppard magically travelling 48,000 yrs into the future... then magically travelling back...

NOTHING ELSE HAPPENED!!!!!

everything that holo-rodney talked about didn't happen... so if you look at it, all we had was an episode where john goes forward in time and comes back... that's it.


how the bleep is that a season finale?


this was, at best, a mid-season episode...


and further proof that SGA is going down the toilet...

I agree, the epsiode was boring and for a finale it was absolute crap!
Not even a cliff hanger IMO.
Very dissapointed esp after a great season.......

david2708
March 8th, 2008, 10:26 PM
It's not so much that the episode is awful-aside from that playstation 1 blowing up building graphic-it's just that the episode would sit comfortably as episode number 7 of the season and be entitled to the tag 'mediocre filler ep'.
People really should not get so caught up in Malozzie's used car salesman talk where he'll try and sell you that you're in for something INCREDIBLE!!
What you learn from the ep is that season 5 will the show's last.

Aethon
March 8th, 2008, 10:40 PM
I thought this episode was awesome, I don't care if nothing really happend but it was interesting to watch. It had a different vibe about it. I can agree that a much better end would have been before John traveled back or, he could travel back but end up somewhere else... This end was kinda obvious, ofcourse they won't all die.

Buck32
March 9th, 2008, 01:33 AM
Be All My Sins Remember'd was a season finale...

Last Man was crap



John Sheppard magically travelling 48,000 yrs into the future... then magically travelling back...

NOTHING ELSE HAPPENED!!!!!

everything that holo-rodney talked about didn't happen... so if you look at it, all we had was an episode where john goes forward in time and comes back... that's it.


how the bleep is that a season finale?


this was, at best, a mid-season episode...


and further proof that SGA is going down the toilet...



I don't know if it was the worst finale ever, i thought it was quite entertaining actually, although i will say the last 5 minutes were a little pointless, and that so called "cliffhanger ending" lacked even a little suspense, we all know they'll be back alive and well next season, maybe the rescue will be more dramatic.

personally i would have preferred them just end the episode with Shepherd's return and the whole crew vowing to rescue Teyla and stop Michael, the building collapse was just a bit meh, whatever.

drake122
March 9th, 2008, 05:54 AM
This episode was complete trash. In fact, the only good thing about it was so many familiar faces quest starring... Todd, Lorne, Keller, Woolsey, etc.

The plot was total crap otherwise.

As for the cliff hanger ending... duh, we all know everybody is going to survive anyway so once again, totally crap.:o

Falcon Horus
March 9th, 2008, 06:13 AM
How is that cowerdice?

Because they lack the guts to do it... They are too afraid of the consequences, so they pour it into an alternate timeline instead. Let's see what happens if we kill a whole bunch of characters. How will that be received?


David thats really presumptous. And quite frankly wrong.
I'm the first one to say when an episode is bad. I'll happily admit it. But jsut ebcause you don't like or understand the new direction Atlantis is taking is no reason for you to give this episode such a bad time. It was a good one. You jsut don't understand it, you're trying to anylise it like SG-1, you simply can't.

David has a right to offer his opinion and it doesn't mean he is more right or wrong than you. Or that he understands something or not, his mind works differently than yours and mine. Accept that or maybe try opening your mind a little more.

GateMan2000
March 9th, 2008, 06:16 AM
I have to agree with everyone for once and knock an SGA episode. This wasn't all that thrilling and the cliffhanger didn't make me upset at all. 5/10 episode.

Invictus
March 9th, 2008, 06:22 AM
Say what ever you like, I still think that this was the cooles episod of SGA & once again demonstrates that without Sheperd, Atlantis is doomed.:mckay:

ijffdrie
March 9th, 2008, 06:29 AM
this tottaly beated 1969
although this did nothing for the story it was one cool episode

Skydiver
March 9th, 2008, 07:52 AM
in the spirit of discussion, i'm gonna invite you guys to take this to the main episode discussion thread