PDA

View Full Version : Did the Timeline really get erased?



haloplayer
March 8th, 2008, 12:25 AM
Well the plot of this Episode was to fix the timeline by erasing it and making a new timeline. But did it really get erased?

There are several theory's on what would happen if you went back into time and changed events.

Now one of the theory's is that when you go back into time and change an event the original timeline is erased and a new one is created.

There is another theory that when you go back into time and change and event insteid of erasing the original timeline a Parallel timeline (i think set in a parallel universe) is created in which everything up to that point is the same as as the original timeline. So the original timeline is not erased.

Now Sheppard was sent into the future in the normal timeline. He is sent back into time to try to change the timeline. When he gets back it was 12 days for the rest of the people back on Atlantis in which he had been missing. Now in the original timeline he never came back at that time and came back to Atlantis in the future.

So the question is that when John Sheppard went back into time to make a new timeline did he erase the other timeline that he came from or just make a new timeline and the original timeline stays and is not changed.

I think that they implied that he erased the original timeline (which was shown in flashbacks) and created a new timeline in which the rest of the show will take place.

KindlyKeller
March 8th, 2008, 12:40 AM
Yeah, I'm familiar with the theory. When you think about, I guess: everyone's dead and buried at that point, so even if it doesn't help those who are dead and buried, things will for certain be different for SHEPPARD. That's something, at least.

Willow'sCat
March 8th, 2008, 01:24 AM
Well the plot of this Episode was to fix the timeline by erasing it and making a new timeline. But did it really get erased?

There are several theory's on what would happen if you went back into time and changed events.

Now one of the theory's is that when you go back into time and change an event the original timeline is erased and a new one is created.

There is another theory that when you go back into time and change and event insteid of erasing the original timeline a Parallel timeline (i think set in a parallel universe) is created in which everything up to that point is the same as as the original timeline. So the original timeline is not erased.

Now Sheppard was sent into the future in the normal timeline. He is sent back into time to try to change the timeline. When he gets back it was 12 days for the rest of the people back on Atlantis in which he had been missing. Now in the original timeline he never came back at that time and came back to Atlantis in the future.

So the question is that when John Sheppard went back into time to make a new timeline did he erase the other timeline that he came from or just make a new timeline and the original timeline stays and is not changed.

I think that they implied that he erased the original timeline (which was shown in flashbacks) and created a new timeline in which the rest of the show will take place. I guess it depends on whether you think altering small things changes bigger things, it is a small thing in the scheme of things to have Sheppard not get trapped in the future. The ramifications though are huge!

I think the point is for this to be one and the same time-line. McKay just hopes by bringing Sheppard back that everything resets, but alters as well... Teyla will not be killed, baby will be safe... he and Jennifer may or may not get involved *but now John can warn her to be extra careful around her research*.

Heck it is scifi with more emphasis on the "fi" then the "sci" so anything is possible. :cool:

I noticed Clone!Carson was no where to be seen... the writers like omitting things when it suits them don't they? :rolleyes: I am so sure in all the 25 years of Rodney being alive that he never bothered to "save" Clone!Carson.:cool: Never found a way to do that; surely Clone!Carson would know more about Michael's experiments then anyone, would know his weak spot.

KindlyKeller
March 8th, 2008, 01:35 AM
It didn't bother me in the episode, and I think given the time constraints it was better to avoid it, but you're dead right about Carson being forgotten.

darkthunder84
March 8th, 2008, 01:38 AM
I think Shepherd returned to his own timeline, but who is to say if his return is for the better or worse. We don't know what went on during the 12 days that he was missing in action for one thing. Second, in the original timeline Teyla was found dead aprox. 2 months after Shepherds disappearance. Here they go storming in looking for her, only 2 weeks after his disappearance. There's really no reason to assume that just because she's suppose to be found in "6 weeks" from that time at that location, that she'll be there already now. They should've done proper reconassiance prior to their assault.

For all we know, they only made matters worse if one or more of the team members are injured by the falling debris (or worse). In the original timeline, they didnt even visit the planet until 6 weeks after this timeline. Who knows what changes are made due to them being trapped on the planet, what decisions Carter makes in order to go rescue them etc.

jdbond
March 8th, 2008, 03:33 AM
It's a frakking science fiction. Time travel, present and future time lines and such are a cool notion from sci-fi perspective. You guys are talking like any of this could actually happen;)

KindlyKeller
March 8th, 2008, 03:50 AM
It's a frakking science fiction. Time travel, present and future time lines and such are a cool notion from sci-fi perspective. You guys are talking like any of this could actually happen;)

Isn't that what this board is? Talking like ANYTHING from these shows could actually happen? I agree that it doesn't matter, but it's interesting to discuss, which is the reason we're here.

melfan
March 8th, 2008, 03:56 AM
I think he's creating a new timeline. In stead of going through door A you go through door B.
Not erasing the original timeline, he just pushes that aside and createsa new one.
The old one is still there, just been pushed aside.
Does that make any sence what so ever?

freetoken
March 8th, 2008, 06:26 AM
It's a frakking science fiction. Time travel, present and future time lines and such are a cool notion from sci-fi perspective. You guys are talking like any of this could actually happen;)

Fiction is best, and most powerful, if the reader/viewer can relate to the characters and situations. When a piece of fiction becomes too far removed from either our experiences or our ability to rationalize the story intellectually then we are left detached.

The problem with TLM is non-trivial. Since previous SGA (and SG-1) story lines have already laid the foundation of time travel as alternate universe creating, the McKay character would have known this (and indeed one SGA storyline was explicitly about an alternate McKay.)

So, McKay would have known that, rather than changing the past, what he was to accomplish (by sending Shep backward in time) would be merely to create another timeline, not save his own timeline.

Now, you might argue that on any given episode the writers can throw out all that went before (in previous episodes), but doing so creates chaos and contradictions to which even those viewers with the shortest of short term memory would object.

Vala_M
March 8th, 2008, 08:14 AM
Time travel through time travel machines and jumpers creates the alternate universe, time travel through the gate does not.

Examples:
1969
2010
The Last Man

Vala,

dasNdanger
March 8th, 2008, 08:18 AM
IF Sheppard really came back (and the ending wasn't a dream while he was in stasis as someone suggested), then...we can't be sure if he did reset things. Sure, he came back - but Teyla is still missing, and they have NO idea where she is now, and John may or may not be dead and/or gravely injured in that explosion. So, as things stand now - the flashbacks we have seen COULD actually happen in the future, simply because nothing has changed. Teyla is missing, Sheppard is out of commission (at the moment).

We can hope they survived the building collapse...OR...that they were transported out somehow right before it collapsed. We think that 'Search and Rescue' is about Teyla - but it MAY be more about finding Shep and his team under that rubble. It will probably be about both...but until John is safe, and Teyla is rescued, the timeline we saw in TLM is still going to happen.


At least, that's what I'm thinking right now...


das

darkthunder84
March 8th, 2008, 09:18 AM
IF Sheppard really came back (and the ending wasn't a dream while he was in stasis as someone suggested), then...we can't be sure if he did reset things. Sure, he came back - but Teyla is still missing, and they have NO idea where she is now, and John may or may not be dead and/or gravely injured in that explosion. So, as things stand now - the flashbacks we have seen COULD actually happen in the future, simply because nothing has changed. Teyla is missing, Sheppard is out of commission (at the moment).

We can hope they survived the building collapse...OR...that they were transported out somehow right before it collapsed. We think that 'Search and Rescue' is about Teyla - but it MAY be more about finding Shep and his team under that rubble. It will probably be about both...but until John is safe, and Teyla is rescued, the timeline we saw in TLM is still going to happen.


At least, that's what I'm thinking right now...


das

You have quite a valid point. The old timeline happened because John was declared "KIA". Now i'm not saying the collapsed building caused him to get killed, but as far as anyone is concerned he might as well be KIA as it is, until they find him and his team.

haloplayer
March 8th, 2008, 12:27 PM
Ok thanks for the responses guys. Looks like we will never know. Even if the original timeline did not get erased Sheppard and the people in this new timeline would not know that. I do know that there have been ways to go to Parallel Universes in Stargate Canon but i think the normal Parallel Universes are different then Parallel Timelines (set in a new Parallel Universe) created from changing the past.

haloplayer
March 8th, 2008, 12:30 PM
Time travel through time travel machines and jumpers creates the alternate universe, time travel through the gate does not.

Examples:
1969
2010
The Last Man

Vala,

Actually you don't know in the episode 2010. You know they tried to change the past by sending a letter back in time BUT they never said if that future timeline was erased and a new one was created or a new timeline was created but that future timeline still existed and was running parallel to the new timeline.

Mitchell82
March 8th, 2008, 12:31 PM
I think he's creating a new timeline. In stead of going through door A you go through door B.
Not erasing the original timeline, he just pushes that aside and createsa new one.
The old one is still there, just been pushed aside.
Does that make any sence what so ever?

I don't think what actually happened (Teyla,Ronon,Carter and Keller's death) is what the original time line was supposed to be. I think he returned to his time line and the other one is the alternate.

kymeric
March 8th, 2008, 12:38 PM
Well the plot of this Episode was to fix the timeline by erasing it and making a new timeline. But did it really get erased?

There are several theory's on what would happen if you went back into time and changed events.

Now one of the theory's is that when you go back into time and change an event the original timeline is erased and a new one is created.

There is another theory that when you go back into time and change and event insteid of erasing the original timeline a Parallel timeline (i think set in a parallel universe) is created in which everything up to that point is the same as as the original timeline. So the original timeline is not erased.

Now Sheppard was sent into the future in the normal timeline. He is sent back into time to try to change the timeline. When he gets back it was 12 days for the rest of the people back on Atlantis in which he had been missing. Now in the original timeline he never came back at that time and came back to Atlantis in the future.

So the question is that when John Sheppard went back into time to make a new timeline did he erase the other timeline that he came from or just make a new timeline and the original timeline stays and is not changed.

I think that they implied that he erased the original timeline (which was shown in flashbacks) and created a new timeline in which the rest of the show will take place.

The future is erased, the future u came from is gone but you still exist. The physical form of our bodies as matter is complex pattern of disturbances in space and time. This means that there is a temporal component to our physical structure. We can be removed from our native time and space and still retain our own little slice of history. So i can go back in time and kill my ancestor, i just have no home to return to and no matter how long i wait around i will never see myself born.

Mitchell82
March 8th, 2008, 12:43 PM
The future is erased, the future u came from is gone but you still exist. The physical form of our bodies as matter is complex pattern of disturbances in space and time. This means that there is a temporal component to our physical structure. We can be removed from our native time and space and still retain our own little slice of history. So i can go back in time and kill my ancestor, i just have no home to return to and no matter how long i wait around i will never see myself born.

Wrong. When Shep went into the future an Alternate time line was created. When Shep came back that timeline exits in the other reality but Shep is back in ours. And if you go back and kill you grandfather sorry to say you won't exist.

haloplayer
March 8th, 2008, 12:52 PM
Wrong. When Shep went into the future an Alternate time line was created. When Shep came back that timeline exits in the other reality but Shep is back in ours. And if you go back and kill you grandfather sorry to say you won't exist.

Actually killing your grandfather in the past is a PARADOX.

Example:

If i go back in time and meet my grandfather before he met my grandmother and i kill them that results in a Paradox.

Because by killing him i prevent him from making my father which prevents my father of making me which prevents me from ever going back in time in the first place and killing my grandfather.

So its not simple at all. If you kill your grandfather with a gun you wont just disappear because you don't exist anymore, your grandfather would not die either. Its a paradox because how can a bullet shot in the head of your grandfather NOT kill him?

I heard the only way to escape the Paradox is when you travel back into time not only are you traveling back into time you are sent back in time in a Parallel Universe. So if you kill your grandfather you are really killing your Parallel Grandfather which causes your Parallel Self of that Universe to be erased but does not affect you since you are from a different universe.

Mitchell82
March 8th, 2008, 12:58 PM
Actually killing your grandfather in the past is a PARADOX.

Example:

If i go back in time and meet my grandfather before he met my grandmother and i kill them that results in a Paradox.

Because by killing him i prevent him from making my father which prevents my father of making me which prevents me from ever going back in time in the first place and killing my grandfather.

So its not simple at all. If you kill your grandfather with a gun you wont just disappear because you don't exist anymore, your grandfather would not die either. Its a paradox because how can a bullet shot in the head of your grandfather NOT kill him?

I heard the only way to escape the Paradox is when you travel back into time not only are you traveling back into time you are sent back in time in a Parallel Universe. So if you kill your grandfather you are really killing your Parallel Grandfather which causes your Parallel Self of that Universe to be erased but does not affect you since you are from a different universe.

Ok head hurts now.;)

rens14
March 8th, 2008, 01:09 PM
Sheppard wasn't in another timeline just in the future and het changed it.

And in moebuis sg1 changes the future by going to ancient egypt so in the future they are diffrent people but they still excist so if you kill you grandfather you may still excist.

xSFx
March 8th, 2008, 02:00 PM
Nothing ever gets "fixed", it just gets redone with different parameters.

The Atlantis Sheppard left will be engulfed by the sun and that timeline will go on as if nothing had happened.

melfan
March 8th, 2008, 02:04 PM
Ok head hurts now.;)

Or to make it simple, you shot your grandfather, have sex with your grandmother who get's pregnant with your father

Fenrir Foxz
March 8th, 2008, 02:10 PM
Or to make it simple, you shot your grandfather, have sex with your grandmother who get's pregnant with your father

:eek:...

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd58/FenRiR_FoXz/Smilies%20-%20GiFs%20-%20etc/WhyDidIComeToThisThread.gif

...:P

kymeric
March 8th, 2008, 03:51 PM
Wrong. When Shep went into the future an Alternate time line was created. When Shep came back that timeline exits in the other reality but Shep is back in ours. And if you go back and kill you grandfather sorry to say you won't exist.

The constant creation of other timelines is absurd. That the entire universe is recreated in its entirety billions of times every second would require an infinite amount of energy which time and space dont have. There is a specific amount of energy in the universe that would be calcuable if we knew the initial mass of the universe and the expansion rate of the cosmos.

Time is only a result of the outward motion of the universe. Where space and matter moves slower time is measurably slower. A plane flying in the sky or a ship in orbit experiences time a quantifiably measurable speed slower. outside the galaxies time is moving at a different rate based on the lower concentration of matter.

What this means is time is formed into little bubbles around matter within a larger expanding and diminishing bubble of the universe which is thinning and decreasing towards entropy, or zero time. Those last seconds when the last 2 atoms no longer have enough gravity to hold together are going to be very long indeed.

If we could change the speed and direction of something relative to the overall motion of the universe we could go back in time, forward in time or even stop or slow time. You could go back and kill your grandfather without destroying yourself because the very act of changing the direction and flow of time and space around your material substance has insulated that matter from the changes to the outside flow of time. Thus when the bullet goes thru his head and all the matter that makes up his genes and cells and your fathers and eventually yours are reordered into soemthing else by your original time. But youre not there and are safely isolate from those changes to your past.

A temporal multiverse is just absurd and naievely ignores that the cosmos is a self contained consistant finate structure. The idea that me deciding whether im gonna go to the bathroom or go to the fridge for a twinkie has enough energy to recreate the universe in its entirety without needing an entire universe worth of energy is rediclous.


Wow, wall of text

FallenAngelII
March 8th, 2008, 04:12 PM
I'm not an expert on time travel, but Moebius nand 1969 should give us a clue which theory Stargateverse follows.