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View Full Version : How Beckett SHOULD have returned (Spoilers)



jrd231
March 5th, 2008, 08:04 AM
I thought the writers missed an easy way to have Becket return full-time. Only, for some reason it feels like the writers take characters that everybody loves and writes them out to spite fans in SGA. The fans always loved Becket, so I couldn't figure out why they wrote him out to begin with.

Anyway, a cool way to bring the Becket we loved back would have been like this:

When Michael captured Becket, he cloned him and took the real Becket with him to do the research. He left the clone, who didn't know he was a clone, with the Atlantis team to go back with them. The clone dies in "Sunday" and now we have the real Becket back.

They could have avoided the whole cloning problem angle and we'd all be happy. I actually thought this is where they were going with it until they revealed that Becket was a clone.

ciannwn
March 5th, 2008, 08:08 AM
There was no way that Michael could have cloned Beckett in the 'Misbegotten' camp because it didn't have any advanced technology which he could have used.

erb
March 5th, 2008, 08:25 AM
There was no way that Michael could have cloned Beckett in the 'Misbegotten' camp because it didn't have any advanced technology which he could have used.

So it would seem. But, even so, there could have always been a later switch. After all, Teyla had this whole serious relationship going on....all offscreen. (Not that I like doing things that way, but tptb seem to have no problem doing so when it suits them.)

And do we know how Michael managed to get off the planet? Always hoping the answer to one question could help with another.

ciannwn
March 5th, 2008, 08:31 AM
And do we know how Michael managed to get off the planet? Always hoping the answer to one question could help with another.

According to 'Vengeance' he was picked up by a hive ship. This has to be the one that turned up in 'Misbegotten' because it wasn't destroyed. Michael then went on to say that he barely escaped this hive with his life so he couldn't have made a clone there.

Briangate78
March 5th, 2008, 08:50 AM
There was no way that Michael could have cloned Beckett in the 'Misbegotten' camp because it didn't have any advanced technology which he could have used.

Yup! I would of been upset at the writing department if this was the real Carson. It would of been "CHEAP" not like the idea of the clone which is very clever, and how they tied it into the new story arc and used an old story arc.

How could Michael make a clone after only a few months after the events of "Misbeggotten"? The Carson clone could of been created only a year ago, but because he had the genetic memories of the other Carson, it felt like almost 2 years to that Carson. Truly very dynamic and clever writing, imo.

Briangate78
March 5th, 2008, 08:53 AM
So it would seem. But, even so, there could have always been a later switch. After all, Teyla had this whole serious relationship going on....all offscreen. (Not that I like doing things that way, but tptb seem to have no problem doing so when it suits them.)

And do we know how Michael managed to get off the planet? Always hoping the answer to one question could help with another.

You have to remember the events that happen are in real-time. An entire season is basically almost a year. There are off screen events that do happen between seasons. The Teyla and Kanaan thing being one of them. If Season 3's Misbegotten happened in episode 2, and the real Carson died in episode 17, it was really only several months, maybe like 4 or 5 tops. There was no way Michael could of learned the technology and figure out the science of cloning in such a short time.

This clone will be better than the original Carson, he has so much more to prove, and he will not let his friends down just because he is a copy.

Naonak
March 5th, 2008, 09:01 AM
So it would seem. But, even so, there could have always been a later switch. After all, Teyla had this whole serious relationship going on....all offscreen. (Not that I like doing things that way, but tptb seem to have no problem doing so when it suits them.)
Teyla having a secret relationship off-screen, and Carson being kidnapped off-screen are hardly the same thing...

prion
March 5th, 2008, 09:02 AM
I thought the writers missed an easy way to have Becket return full-time. Only, for some reason it feels like the writers take characters that everybody loves and writes them out to spite fans in SGA. The fans always loved Becket, so I couldn't figure out why they wrote him out to begin with.

Anyway, a cool way to bring the Becket we loved back would have been like this:

When Michael captured Becket, he cloned him and took the real Becket with him to do the research. He left the clone, who didn't know he was a clone, with the Atlantis team to go back with them. The clone dies in "Sunday" and now we have the real Becket back.

They could have avoided the whole cloning problem angle and we'd all be happy. I actually thought this is where they were going with it until they revealed that Becket was a clone.

That would ahve been nice, but then in reality, it would make sense to hire back McGillion but wait, they already hired Staite, so budget is met. They killed Beckett for the foolish reason of 'shaking things up.' ALl it did was tick off the fan base.

Briangate78
March 5th, 2008, 09:12 AM
That would ahve been nice, but then in reality, it would make sense to hire back McGillion but wait, they already hired Staite, so budget is met. They killed Beckett for the foolish reason of 'shaking things up.' ALl it did was tick off the fan base.

Killing off Beckett was pointless, imo. The ratings are the same as they were last season's 2nd half. The Weir arc was actually interesting and had a point, with potential, but I don't even want to get into that.

Maybe this clone bit will make it more interesting and all will not be in vain.

The.Road.Not.Taken
March 5th, 2008, 10:45 AM
I thought the writers missed an easy way to have Becket return full-time. Only, for some reason it feels like the writers take characters that everybody loves and writes them out to spite fans in SGA. The fans always loved Becket, so I couldn't figure out why they wrote him out to begin with.

Anyway, a cool way to bring the Becket we loved back would have been like this:

When Michael captured Becket, he cloned him and took the real Becket with him to do the research. He left the clone, who didn't know he was a clone, with the Atlantis team to go back with them. The clone dies in "Sunday" and now we have the real Becket back.

They could have avoided the whole cloning problem angle and we'd all be happy. I actually thought this is where they were going with it until they revealed that Becket was a clone.

it could never of worked he would have to keep the clone because he needs those durgs doesn't he the atlantis crew would have noticed somthing was rong in the first place and would have to but the clone in statsis

Reiko
March 5th, 2008, 10:55 AM
Well, that's how I wished it would happen as well from the moment I heard he was coming back. It also seemed the most logical and interesting explanation.

I also think that it was pretty impossible for Michael to clone him that fast, unless he's using the Carson Easy Bake Oven™. Real Carson could have been extracted from Atlantis later in the season yet still before Sunday.

But I'm trying not to dwell on it too much.


That would ahve been nice, but then in reality, it would make sense to hire back McGillion but wait, they already hired Staite, so budget is met.

Actually, I don't think so. Kindred was written (and filmed) a while before the season five casting even was released. IMHO they chose Keller because they needed to balance out the cast gender ratio. If Amanda had stayed, we could probably have Carson back. If tptb decided to actually be charitable (never expect charitable from them) and invited Torri back full-time, and she agreed, we probably would also have him back. But no - I applaud Torri for turning the offer down, I wouldn't like a half-assed deal either.

I still blame tptb. We could have Carson back by now if they hadn't decided to off Elizabeth in the first place. But tptb are petty like that :mckay:

Oh yes. And then there's the point that Keller has breasts and Carson doesn't. :rolleyes:

erb
March 5th, 2008, 10:57 AM
Yup! I would of been upset at the writing department if this was the real Carson. It would of been "CHEAP" not like the idea of the clone which is very clever, and how they tied it into the new story arc and used an old story arc.
Truly very dynamic and clever writing, imo.

*sighs* You know I don't have a problem with a clone in theory. I actually like the idea of them as, like you have said, it adds to the scifi feel of the series.

However, just coming up with the idea of a clone in itself isn't clever. Like others have said, it, like most everything else, has been done before. (Have even seen it in fanfics....are they all clever just to include cloning?)

What will or won't make it clever depends on the detailed explanation of the how, including Carson's memories also being incorporated into this being, not just his DNA. So, for me, it's still a 'wait and see'.

As to the bolded part, I do agree with that.


Teyla having a secret relationship off-screen, and Carson being kidnapped off-screen are hardly the same thing...

Hmm...well, if the secret relationship didn't have any significant impact on storyline the way Carson being kidnapped would, I would be more inclined to agree. But, her relationship and the supposed result of it is the major part of Teyla's arc for this entire season and who knows how much of the one to follow. So, again, I feel tptb are perfectly happy to have significant goings-on off-screen, if it suits them. JMO.

I don't think it's unreasonable to have wanted and to want to see some scenes of Teyla's lover before Michael got his hands on him, especially since she refused to leave him and go to safety with her unborn child. It would be nice for us to know this person for whom Teyla would risk so much.

KindlyKeller
March 5th, 2008, 10:58 AM
Yup! I would of been upset at the writing department if this was the real Carson. It would of been "CHEAP" not like the idea of the clone which is very clever, and how they tied it into the new story arc and used an old story arc.

How could Michael make a clone after only a few months after the events of "Misbeggotten"? The Carson clone could of been created only a year ago, but because he had the genetic memories of the other Carson, it felt like almost 2 years to that Carson. Truly very dynamic and clever writing, imo.

Exactly. This presents incredibly interesting character dynamics. What is the nature of self, and how do we accept others defining it for themselves. He's Carson, but he's not. I think they handled it extremely well. Making the real Carson would have been eye-roll-inducing beyond imagination.

KindlyKeller
March 5th, 2008, 11:01 AM
What a shock -- something derailed into another Keller Hate Thread. :cool:

Reiko
March 5th, 2008, 11:10 AM
What a shock -- something derailed into another Keller Hate Thread. :cool:

Give me a break. You know it was bound to happen :rolleyes:

Briangate78
March 5th, 2008, 11:12 AM
*sighs* You know I don't have a problem with a clone in theory. I actually like the idea of them as, like you have said, it adds to the scifi feel of the series.

However, just coming up with the idea of a clone in itself isn't clever. Like others have said, it, like most everything else, has been done before. (Have even seen it in fanfics....are they all clever just to include cloning?)

What will or won't make it clever depends on the detailed explanation of the how, including Carson's memories also being incorporated into this being, not just his DNA. So, for me, it's still a 'wait and see'.

As to the bolded part, I do agree with that.





Well the idea of the clone was not the clever part. The idea of how they tied Carson's return into the major story arc and used an old story arc concept with an old enemy who had been forgotten until now. That to me was clever. They thought it out and just did not say, oh we cloned Carson. There was a reason to have him cloned, and now there is a very interesting story arc that will continue, imo.

Anyway, I am glad you accepted a clone Carson. I am hoping they plan for more eps for Carson than just 5 next season.

Reiko
March 5th, 2008, 11:16 AM
Anyway, I am glad you accepted a clone Carson. I am hoping they plan for more eps for Carson than just 5 next season.

I've decided to accept it as well. I still feel cheated by tptb but I'll get over it :rolleyes: I'll love him as much as the old one <3 :beckett:

besides ... he's better than Keller either way ... :D *runs and hides before she gets pummeled*

Briangate78
March 5th, 2008, 11:21 AM
I've decided to accept it as well. I still feel cheated by tptb but I'll get over it :rolleyes: I'll love him as much as the old one <3 :beckett:

besides ... he's better than Keller either way ... :D *runs and hides before she gets pummeled*

Yeah it seems most people are going to accept him. Why? Likely because he truly made the episode amazing. I think story and quality wise it is better that he is a clone. The real deal just would of been too forced, imo.

Anyway, I look at the show differently than other folks.

Mitchell82
March 5th, 2008, 11:22 AM
I thought the writers missed an easy way to have Becket return full-time. Only, for some reason it feels like the writers take characters that everybody loves and writes them out to spite fans in SGA. The fans always loved Becket, so I couldn't figure out why they wrote him out to begin with.
They don't do it to spite fans. The reason characters are written out generally has to do with issues behind the scenes. They do however realize now that it was a mistake.


Anyway, a cool way to bring the Becket we loved back would have been like this:

When Michael captured Becket, he cloned him and took the real Becket with him to do the research. He left the clone, who didn't know he was a clone, with the Atlantis team to go back with them. The clone dies in "Sunday" and now we have the real Becket back.
That was my theory as well but in hindsight it would not have worked. There is no way he could have done that in that short of a period of time.


They could have avoided the whole cloning problem angle and we'd all be happy. I actually thought this is where they were going with it until they revealed that Becket was a clone.
There was no logical way to do that.

Heaven
March 5th, 2008, 11:33 AM
this whole thing stinks from the beginning
no matter how the writers decided to pull it off, the result would have been unpleasing
Beckett shouldn't have been killed from the start
if they wanted to lay Paul off for a while they could have just gave him a disease and put him in a stasis pod just like they did now
would have made for a far better episode

I'm sick of the writing in this show always taking conveniences like that

Mitchell82
March 5th, 2008, 11:35 AM
this whole thing stinks from the beginning
no matter how the writers decided to pull it off, the result would have been unpleasing
Beckett shouldn't have been killed from the start
if they wanted to lay Paul off for a while they could have just gave him a disease and put him in a stasis pod just like they did now
would have made for a far better episode

I'm sick of the writing in this show always taking conveniences like that
I agree that Carson shouldn't have been killed but I don't agree that the result is unpleasing.

erb
March 5th, 2008, 11:46 AM
this whole thing stinks from the beginning
no matter how the writers decided to pull it off, the result would have been unpleasing
Beckett shouldn't have been killed from the start
if they wanted to lay Paul off for a while they could have just gave him a disease and put him in a stasis pod just like they did now
would have made for a far better episode

I'm sick of the writing in this show always taking conveniences like that

I agree the whole thing did stink from the beginning. And, you have a good point about them putting Carson in the stasis pod from necessity in the first place rather than giving us Sunday.

But, they wanted a 'death' as a ratings stunt. With how badly that worked, I wonder if the results would have been better for them if they had gone the stasis pod route.

Reiko
March 5th, 2008, 11:50 AM
I agree the whole thing did stink from the beginning. And, you have a good point about them putting Carson in the stasis pod from necessity in the first place rather than giving us Sunday.

But, they wanted a 'death' as a ratings stunt. With how badly that worked, I wonder if the results would have been better for them if they had gone the stasis pod route.

I think they would have gone much better, but only if there was reassurance that he would still be returning as a regular next season. "Carson just has to go take a nap" is indefinate and the ptb would probably leave him in there for ... God only knows how long :P

erb
March 5th, 2008, 12:01 PM
I think they would have gone much better, but only if there was reassurance that he would still be returning as a regular next season. "Carson just has to go take a nap" is indefinate and the ptb would probably leave him in there for ... God only knows how long :P

I meant as far as ratings for that particular episode in which it happened, not anything beyond that.

Briangate78
March 5th, 2008, 12:16 PM
I meant as far as ratings for that particular episode in which it happened, not anything beyond that.

I can tell you that the ratings point are the same from last season's half to this season's current half, but the viewers will likely be higher, depending how the finale and both "Kindreds" do. I hope and wish Kindred pulled in great ratings. Just because it was Carson.

KindlyKeller
March 5th, 2008, 06:59 PM
I don't think the Beckett death was for ratings. I think it was probably a combination of behind-the-scenes stuff that we know nothing about and TPTB returning to the "reasserting the danger of what they do" idea. It'll work better with Weir because she won't be back, obviously.

I donno. I think the return was handled extremely well and I thought Paul delivered big time -- easily his best performance of the series -- but it probably would've been better if he'd not been brought back because, even though he's a clone, it definitely dilutes the impact of the real Carson's death.

I just hope -- and I know there's a significant some who don't agree with me -- that they don't end up pushing Jewel out the door. That would just kill me.

erb
March 5th, 2008, 07:19 PM
I just hope -- and I know there's a significant some who don't agree with me -- that they don't end up pushing Jewel out the door. That would just kill me.

You mean like pushing Paul/Carson out the door killed all his fans like me? And I'm sure it was a real picnic for Paul, too.

I don't think you have anything to worry about. They need her to fill the quota of females on the show.

KindlyKeller
March 5th, 2008, 07:28 PM
You mean like pushing Paul/Carson out the door killed all his fans like me? And I'm sure it was a real picnic for Paul, too.

I don't think you have anything to worry about. They need her to fill the quota of females on the show.

I don't know why you seem so angry with me. I've never begrudged people their disillusionment about Carson. However, if Carson were to replace Keller -- I wouldn't automatically hate Carson/Paul/the writers as if they'd wronged me and he was the worst character to ever exist. Maybe some others could consider that kind of rational attitude.

Jackie
March 5th, 2008, 07:29 PM
Carson's death was a ratings ploy...that was admitted to during an interview with Paul M. When they called him in to tell him he was walking they stated to him that they "needed to shake things up."

Anyways, the topic is how Carson should have returned.

To be honest they wrote themselves into a box with HOW they killed carson. I don't really think they intended to bring him back when they write that ep, only after they saw the knee jerking reaction from the fans.

If they planned all along to bring back carson then it would be better if he disappeared or ascended.

The best way to have "undone" Sunday and bring back Carson full time, as suggested in the thread title, would be to have Sheppard's team suddenly discover that their memories of Sunday was in fact falsely implanted into their minds when some enemy kidnapped Carson out from under their nose.

Maybe employ the MIB flashy thingy where Will Smith would flash the witnesses and tell them all to get a life.

Massive brainwashing would an interesting arc. :)

KindlyKeller
March 5th, 2008, 07:32 PM
Carson's death was a ratings ploy...that was admitted to during an interview with Paul M. When they called him in to tell him he was walking they stated to him that they "needed to shake things up."


I think that actually just reinforces my thought that they thought they needed to ramp up the danger factor. For instance, they killed Janet to shake things up as well, but that wasn't a ratings ploy, I don't think.

Anyway, like you said, it doesn't matter. That's not what's at issue.

You're right that they wrote themselves into a box. I guess the problem was: this was an all-or-nothing proposition. The only value writing him out of the show had was the emotional and shock value, which couldn't really be achieved by him accepting a transfer to Earth or something comparable.

Jill_Ion
March 5th, 2008, 08:01 PM
I think that actually just reinforces my thought that they thought they needed to ramp up the danger factor. For instance, they killed Janet to shake things up as well, but that wasn't a ratings ploy, I don't think.

Anyway, like you said, it doesn't matter. That's not what's at issue.

You're right that they wrote themselves into a box. I guess the problem was: this was an all-or-nothing proposition. The only value writing him out of the show had was the emotional and shock value, which couldn't really be achieved by him accepting a transfer to Earth or something comparable.

I agree that changing jobs certainly doesn't have the impact of dying.

I just imagine the scene, "Guys? I've decided to...take another job." Shock. Horror. Wringing hands. Tears. -- Or not. LOL.

I don't know why they wrote him out - behind the scenes stuff is my understanding and all I want to know. Ramping up the danger factor is a good possibility too. I'm glad Carson is back and I'm glad Current!Carson is the clone versus the one from Sunday.

Detox
March 5th, 2008, 08:35 PM
I actually like the clone. It gave Becket a touch of darkness to his character.

Jackie
March 6th, 2008, 02:57 AM
I think that actually just reinforces my thought that they thought they needed to ramp up the danger factor. For instance, they killed Janet to shake things up as well, but that wasn't a ratings ploy, I don't think.

Anyway, like you said, it doesn't matter. That's not what's at issue.

You're right that they wrote themselves into a box. I guess the problem was: this was an all-or-nothing proposition. The only value writing him out of the show had was the emotional and shock value, which couldn't really be achieved by him accepting a transfer to Earth or something comparable.

actually it was neither. Season 7 was supposed to be the last, they wanted to end the show with some drama value. When they found out they were renewed the cast begged for TR to stay but the ep was already written and approved. Then TR found out she wouldn't have been available to be the doctor anyways due to another show. (I believe this what sky told me from her interview she gave.)

Anyways, it wasn't a ratings ploy or to shake things up. They wrote the ep as a tribute to the men and women in the armed forces.

Jackie
March 6th, 2008, 03:05 AM
I actually like the clone. It gave Becket a touch of darkness to his character.

I find that quality cheapens the clone even further. Because one can set back and say..."the real carson wouldn't do that." and that just makes the clone less valuable.

I also think Sheppard is a clone too after watching Miller's Crossing. "The real sheppard wouldn't be that dark either."

It's one thing to give your "main character" some flaws but it's another when you turn their personality into something less than becoming. It cheapens the character and puts them in the same line of view as your bad guy.

If you are going to have a "darker character" you need to establish that in the beginning, not change the character later on. And usually the "anti-hero" character is the PO'd postal worker that your audience is supposed to identify with...not question their actions. You really can't have your "good guy" go into "anti-hero" mod when you already have an established good guy vs. bad guy arc like Stargate had. You can give your good guy faults, ticks, make them grumpy but not change the dynamic of who are your good guys and who are your bad guys without turning that dynamic into a plot device.

talyn2k1
March 6th, 2008, 04:13 AM
I was hoping for something along the line of what they did in DS9. When Worf and Garak are captured by the Dominion, they are taken to an internment camp where they find Bashir, who was captured months ago and has been replaced with a changeling.
I still remember seeing that episode because it was something that had not been hinted at in previous episodes, it just came out of nowhere and you feel the same shock as the characters.
That was a damn good way to add a plot twist and I was hoping PTB would do the same.

They could've just said that Michael found a cloning facility like the one in 'Spoils of War' but smaller and thus capable of producing a clone without a ZPM. He then used a sample of DNA he took from Beckett in 'Misbegotten, grew the clone, and then swapped them out at the earliest opportunity.
They could've done a simple flashback to the swap, making it happen in a mission we haven't seen or, even more clever, integrating it into a mission we have seen.

It could've been easily and plausibly explained and then we wouldn't have all this 'he's a clone' rubbish. I was hoping for something a little more ingenious from PTB. I hate to say it, but it seems they just took the easy way out rather than really trying to bring Carson back in a clever way.

Very disappointed.

PG15
March 6th, 2008, 05:29 PM
They could've just said that Michael found a cloning facility like the one in 'Spoils of War' but smaller and thus capable of producing a clone without a ZPM. He then used a sample of DNA he took from Beckett in 'Misbegotten, grew the clone, and then swapped them out at the earliest opportunity.
They could've done a simple flashback to the swap, making it happen in a mission we haven't seen or, even more clever, integrating it into a mission we have seen.

But why would Michael make a switch in the first place? The Bashir situation was different, since the POINT was the switch. The Dominion wanted one of their own on the frontlines, but on the enemy's side.

Michael just wanted Beckett and his knowledge. That's it. Any Beckett will do. ;)

miss_kaylee
March 6th, 2008, 08:03 PM
At first I was upset that it was a Clone.I wanted the real thing one back. I keep thinking though out the episode that it going to come out that it was a clone that died and that was the real Beckett. I thought it would have made sense that Michael took the original and held him captive. I would think Michael would have enjoy being in control of the man who created what Michael is now.
I think Clone Carson will always feel like he has to prove himself and that he is more that just a clone. It makes his storyline with Michael more exciting. You know it has to bother him that chances are he could never go back to see his family and friends on earth. I think this Carson will be a little bit tougher after what all he been though but he will still have heart we know. I thought Paul shined in Kindred part 2 and I am just thankful we have Beckett.