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Detox
March 1st, 2008, 02:43 AM
Joe M. did not lie. He said it would be our Carson in "flesh and blood". Which is exactly the case. The clone IS our original Carson Beckett, in both flesh and blood.

Just wanted to get to this first before all the people who hate the show start crying foul again.

Nitegate
March 1st, 2008, 02:49 AM
i started that thread Boo To Clones. i love the show, my favorite show, it was a great episode, i just wanted to know why Joe did state that it has never been done before the way we bring him back, when it has been done, with the dozens of Baal's roaming the Milky Way. this is why it's not good to leak out info before it airs, just keep it a secret.

he's NOT the original, he's a COPY, the original would get top priorities on the life of Beckett, lucky for the clone the original is dead.

Puddle Jumper 1
March 1st, 2008, 03:31 AM
Sucks, i want the real carson back!

rea
March 1st, 2008, 04:37 AM
Sucks, i want the real carson back!
I don't know what your problem is??? It was Carson - our Carson. The way he speaks, the way he walks, the way he works! When they came through the gate with that injured traitor, he kept them going to get him fixed.. I was cheering!!! I am just a bit pissed that he's kinda gone again!

gange57
March 1st, 2008, 04:47 AM
How can a copy be the original?

cynatnite
March 1st, 2008, 04:52 AM
Joe M. did not lie. He said it would be our Carson in "flesh and blood". Which is exactly the case. The clone IS our original Carson Beckett, in both flesh and blood.

Just wanted to get to this first before all the people who hate the show start crying foul again.

This Carson is a copy. An exact copy. This one is NOT the original.

Adds more to the character. Still wish they'd bring him back full-time.

The_Carpenter
March 1st, 2008, 05:13 AM
How can a copy be the original?
He has the same personality the same memorys and at the end of the day that is what defines who we are!

He is as much Carson as the the Carson that died in Sunday

gange57
March 1st, 2008, 05:24 AM
He has the same personality the same memorys and at the end of the day that is what defines who we are!

He is as much Carson as the the Carson that died in Sunday


No, he doesn't. He has no memory of anything post "Misbegotten." Clone! Carson doesn't remembering saving Ronon in "Sateda." He doesn't remember trying to save Weir in TRW. He doesn't even remember buying turtles! On the bright side, Clone! Carson was spared Lucius. The Carson who died in Sunday experienced all of this. This Carson is just a cheap knockoff.

jenks
March 1st, 2008, 05:27 AM
No, he doesn't. He has no memory of anything post "Misbegotten." Clone! Carson doesn't remembering saving Ronon in "Sateda." He doesn't remember trying to save Weir in TRW. He doesn't even remember buying turtles! On the bright side, Clone! Carson was spared Lucius. The Carson who died in Sunday experienced all of this. This Carson is just a cheap knockoff.

He wouldn't remember any of this even if he was the original.

wireman121
March 1st, 2008, 05:46 AM
I am confused by something. If Michael made an exact copy of him, why wouldnt he keep the original? He would be able to drop the clone back off and no one would no the difference, and think he died a week later from something else - or better yet, why bother making a clone at all? why not just steal the original and use him..i mean...Michael already captued him. why go through the trouble to copy him and let him go again?

It just doesnt add up to me.....

The_Carpenter
March 1st, 2008, 05:47 AM
No, he doesn't. He has no memory of anything post "Misbegotten." Clone! Carson doesn't remembering saving Ronon in "Sateda." He doesn't remember trying to save Weir in TRW. He doesn't even remember buying turtles! On the bright side, Clone! Carson was spared Lucius. The Carson who died in Sunday experienced all of this. This Carson is just a cheap knockoff.
Ok, you got me there... but fundamentally he is the same person, and would of done those exact same things had he been in that situation.

And as Jenks says if the clone had died in Sunday then the "original" Carson would not of saved Ronon and all the rest of it

The_Carpenter
March 1st, 2008, 05:50 AM
I am confused by something. If Michael made an exact copy of him, why wouldnt he keep the original? He would be able to drop the clone back off and no one would no the difference, and think he died a week later from something else - or better yet, why bother making a clone at all? why not just steal the original and use him..i mean...Michael already captued him. why go through the trouble to copy him and let him go again?

It just doesnt add up to me.....

I assume it would take some time to create the clone and grow it to the correct age, with Sheppard and his team coming to rescue Carson all Michael had time to do was take a DNA sample and somehow copy Carson's thought patterns.

Making a clone isn't just a case of get DNA add water and poof you have a brand new clone, it takes time and for all we know there could of been multiple failures in the process

Pharaoh Atem
March 1st, 2008, 06:54 AM
Joe M. did not lie. He said it would be our Carson in "flesh and blood". Which is exactly the case. The clone IS our original Carson Beckett, in both flesh and blood.

Just wanted to get to this first before all the people who hate the show start crying foul again.

carson being a clone was the only way and i have no problem with it :) a clone is a exact copy of the original ...besides micheals modifications:beckett:

he's still the same guy ....just needs some facial hair and it's will be the old carson again

gange57
March 1st, 2008, 07:04 AM
Ok, you got me there... but fundamentally he is the same person, and would of done those exact same things had he been in that situation.

And as Jenks says if the clone had died in Sunday then the "original" Carson would not of saved Ronon and all the rest of it


I don't think he is the fundamentally the same person. Original!Carson could barely shoot a gun; Clone!Carson shot those hybrids as if it were second nature. Since "Misbegotten," they are inherently different people.

Road Dogg JR
March 1st, 2008, 07:53 AM
Being a POW will change the kinda person you are over enough time. You can take the kindest person in the world and stick in a POW camp (a bad one considering this would be Michael) and see just how kind they are after you let em out two years later.

I think JM meant by it's never been done before is that the Carson clone requires those injections to keep living, while other clones (Baal, Anubis, etc) didn't need the injections.

jenks
March 1st, 2008, 09:09 AM
I don't think he is the fundamentally the same person. Original!Carson could barely shoot a gun; Clone!Carson shot those hybrids as if it were second nature. Since "Misbegotten," they are inherently different people.

But they would have been anyway, however they brought him back. Even if this Carson were the original and it was a clone that died, he'd still be a different person to the post Misbegotten Carson wouldn't he?

Vala_M
March 1st, 2008, 10:09 AM
No, he doesn't. He has no memory of anything post "Misbegotten." Clone! Carson doesn't remembering saving Ronon in "Sateda." He doesn't remember trying to save Weir in TRW. He doesn't even remember buying turtles! On the bright side, Clone! Carson was spared Lucius. The Carson who died in Sunday experienced all of this. This Carson is just a cheap knockoff.

I am extremely mad about this as well. What ever happend to "NOT A CLONE, NOT A REPLICATOR, NOT AN ALTERNATE TIMELINE but the real Dr. Beckett"? Unless this is all misinformation, we were lied to. It's possible that he is the real Dr. Beckett and the clone was killed in "Sunday" and that Michael messed with Dr. Beckett's DNA to make him appear to be a clone and be suceptible to Michael's will as well as make him depenent on the drug to live, we all know that is possible...

He does however return for 5 episodes in season 5, in what capacity and extent is unknown but he will so let's hope that we find out my idea is right.

Vala,

Detox
March 1st, 2008, 12:04 PM
I am confused by something. If Michael made an exact copy of him, why wouldnt he keep the original? He would be able to drop the clone back off and no one would no the difference, and think he died a week later from something else - or better yet, why bother making a clone at all? why not just steal the original and use him..i mean...Michael already captued him. why go through the trouble to copy him and let him go again?

It just doesnt add up to me.....

Capturing him meant the Atlantis expedition would be after him. This way, he can have Carson without Atlantis being onto him.


I don't think he is the fundamentally the same person. Original!Carson could barely shoot a gun; Clone!Carson shot those hybrids as if it were second nature. Since "Misbegotten," they are inherently different people.

He's been held captive for nearly two years, being forced to do something against him will and his morals. That changes people. Him shooting those guards were perfectly justified and normal for someone under his situation. Clone Carson may be different from original Carson, but the difference wasn't caused artificially through the cloning process, it was caused by what he had to live through.

GoSpikey
March 1st, 2008, 01:03 PM
I am confused by something. If Michael made an exact copy of him, why wouldnt he keep the original? He would be able to drop the clone back off and no one would no the difference, and think he died a week later from something else - or better yet, why bother making a clone at all? why not just steal the original and use him..i mean...Michael already captued him. why go through the trouble to copy him and let him go again?

It just doesnt add up to me.....

Hmmm, aren't we forgetting something here? Michael probably pulled out some of Carson's hair so he could be cloned after Misbegotten. So he had a piece of his DNA in his pants, so to speak.

How do you think Michael could have cloned Carson on the planet? Didn't exactly have a cloning machine lying around. And don't forget that Michael himself was turning back into a Wraith, and so were his fellow captives. You can't exactly walk into a Hive, half turned, with a human besides you. And later on, Michael had other trouble, getting off the Hive again without being killed! He couldn't exactly have run away with Carson right behind him, right?

;)

Vala_M
March 1st, 2008, 01:53 PM
Hmmm, aren't we forgetting something here? Michael probably pulled out some of Carson's hair so he could be cloned after Misbegotten. So he had a piece of his DNA in his pants, so to speak.

How do you think Michael could have cloned Carson on the planet? Didn't exactly have a cloning machine lying around. And don't forget that Michael himself was turning back into a Wraith, and so were his fellow captives. You can't exactly walk into a Hive, half turned, with a human besides you. And later on, Michael had other trouble, getting off the Hive again without being killed! He couldn't exactly have run away with Carson right behind him, right?

;)

And so little about how Michael escaped is known as well, especially since the planet was bombarded by the hive that the team controlled. Just because it doesn't make sense that he was cloned on spot doesn't mean he was, afterall, we still never found out how Michael got out of there. And which ever Beckett the team got back seemed to remember everything just fine including being CAPTURED on that planet, not waking up in a lab somewhere.

Vala,

Ugly Pig
March 1st, 2008, 04:00 PM
I am extremely mad about this as well. What ever happend to "NOT A CLONE, NOT A REPLICATOR, NOT AN ALTERNATE TIMELINE but the real Dr. Beckett"? Unless this is all misinformation, we were lied to.

There was no "not a clone". That was just a bad assumption someone made. The first post in this thread already cleared that up.

PG15
March 1st, 2008, 04:22 PM
I am extremely mad about this as well. What ever happend to "NOT A CLONE, NOT A REPLICATOR, NOT AN ALTERNATE TIMELINE but the real Dr. Beckett"? Unless this is all misinformation, we were lied to.

Wrong. None of the TPTB ever said that he WON'T be a clone. Please, by all means, find a source that says otherwise.

jyh
March 1st, 2008, 05:32 PM
I posted this thought on another thread, but I'll mention it here. What if the clone IS the one that blew up on Sunday? Is it possible that Michael had the REAL Carson (Carson 1.0) in custody, and somehow caused the internal cellular damage to him in some way? Not sure why he'd do that, but it's a slim possibility.

Personally, I don't care if Carson is a clone. He has all of Beckett's memories, humor, compassion, knowledge, etc., so that's good enough for me. Now, we just have to fix his cell damage and get rid of that pesky "Michael controls him" thing.....

:beckett:

gange57
March 1st, 2008, 10:41 PM
He's been held captive for nearly two years, being forced to do something against him will and his morals. That changes people. Him shooting those guards were perfectly justified and normal for someone under his situation. Clone Carson may be different from original Carson, but the difference wasn't caused artificially through the cloning process, it was caused by what he had to live through.

So, if Clone!Carson was held captive for two years, where did he learn to shoot like a trained soldier?

Detox
March 1st, 2008, 11:11 PM
So, if Clone!Carson was held captive for two years, where did he learn to shoot like a trained soldier?

Trained soldier? He shot two guys in the back at point blank range.

A 10 year old can even do that. Point and pull the trigger.

Besides, it's not the first time we've seen Carson with a gun. Since he goes off world fairly often and carries a sidearm, I assume he has some basic weapons training.

Buck32
March 1st, 2008, 11:14 PM
I am extremely mad about this as well. What ever happend to "NOT A CLONE, NOT A REPLICATOR, NOT AN ALTERNATE TIMELINE but the real Dr. Beckett"? Unless this is all misinformation, we were lied to. It's possible that he is the real Dr. Beckett and the clone was killed in "Sunday" and that Michael messed with Dr. Beckett's DNA to make him appear to be a clone and be suceptible to Michael's will as well as make him depenent on the drug to live, we all know that is possible...

He does however return for 5 episodes in season 5, in what capacity and extent is unknown but he will so let's hope that we find out my idea is right.

Vala,

I sure hope you're right but i've got a sinking feeling that what you're saying won't come to pass. It was great to see Beckett again but i guess cloning was the only real way to bring him back, unless as you said the Beckett that died in Sunday was the clone, which would have been in my opinion a more inventive way to do things.

i think it more likely TPTB just lied to us or fed us false info, which wouldn't surprise me they are after all they are responsible for this very average season, how else are they gonna keep veiwers interested but by overselling their product?

PG15
March 1st, 2008, 11:16 PM
i think it more likely TPTB just lied to us or fed us false info, which wouldn't surprise me they are after all they are responsible for this very average season, how else are they gonna keep veiwers interested but by overselling their product?

Oy.

The fans misinterpreted the info given to us. None of the TPTB EVER said that this Carson won't be a clone, and I challenge anyone to find me a quote that says otherwise!

Nitegate
March 1st, 2008, 11:31 PM
Oy.

The fans misinterpreted the info given to us. None of the TPTB EVER said that this Carson won't be a clone, and I challenge anyone to find me a quote that says otherwise!

fine it wasn't said it won't be a clone, but OUR CARSON as was said is NOT a cloned carson. things like this should have never been leaked out.

PG15
March 1st, 2008, 11:34 PM
I'm not sure what you're trying to say there...the Carson that died in Sunday wasn't a clone? Yeah, we know that...TPTB never said otherwise.

Huh?

gange57
March 2nd, 2008, 12:01 AM
Trained soldier? He shot two guys in the back at point blank range.

A 10 year old can even do that. Point and pull the trigger.

Besides, it's not the first time we've seen Carson with a gun. Since he goes off world fairly often and carries a sidearm, I assume he has some basic weapons training.

I doubt a ten year old could shoot two people in the back as cold-heartedly and effectively as Clone!Carson. But, that's not the point of this thread.

When was the last time we saw Carson shoot a gun? Instinct? McKay didn't seem too confident in Carson's ability to shoot. But, maybe, you are right. Maybe between Instinct and Misbegotten, Carson received more training. It's a shame we didn't see it though.

Detox
March 2nd, 2008, 12:20 AM
I doubt a ten year old could shoot two people in the back as cold-heartedly and effectively as Clone!Carson. But, that's not the point of this thread.

When was the last time we saw Carson shoot a gun? Instinct? McKay didn't seem too confident in Carson's ability to shoot. But, maybe, you are right. Maybe between Instinct and Misbegotten, Carson received more training. It's a shame we didn't see it though.

Well, in Epiphany, we saw him pull a gun on that that ancient holo monster when it was about to attack Elizabeth.

He's a grown man, again, it's not hard to shoot people in the back at point blank range. And like I said, he has to have at least some small arms training because he carries a sidearm. And the military wouldn't issue it to him if he didn't know how to use it. Training probably happened sometime in early season 2, if not before they left earth.

Also, Clone Carson's been hardened by the 2 years in captivity. He's not afraid of killing in revenge because of all the anger he has.

KindlyKeller
March 2nd, 2008, 01:05 AM
Probably because I read some fan misinterpretations, I was under the impression he wouldn't be a clone and was fascinated to see how they'd manage it. When he DID turn out to be a clone, I thought, "Huh?" But the episode was so good and the development handled so well that it didn't matter to me. This was easily the best acting I've EVER seen out of Paul. I used to sometimes think he was a little over the top, but he was so subtle and nuanced here. It was a truly tremendous effort.

Sooo... point being, even as someone who made the mistake of thinking they'd said Carson wouldn't be a clone, I wasn't at all disappointed by the episode. This was fantastic all around.