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Nitegate
March 1st, 2008, 02:11 AM
I was so excited to see this episode, the first half was awesome. I've been waiting forever to see it cause Joe Mallozzi said that it was OUR Carson, not a clone and he already said it wasn't a clone, so why the lie? What's also with the saying it was something that wasn't done yet, but yet it was done cause of the dozens of Baal's out there in the Milky Way Galaxy.

I'm glad Carsons back, but the cloning has been done before on SG-1. If the cloning did not exist, this Carson would not be here, so he's not any different than the replicators cause it is just a "vessel". It is not "OUR" Carson that was left to believe before this episode aired.

jenks
March 1st, 2008, 02:23 AM
Joe Mallozzi never said that he wouldn't be a clone. What he did say was that it would be Carson in the flesh, which some people took to mean the original, and thus the rumours started.

Nitegate
March 1st, 2008, 02:46 AM
ok flesh and blood, it was said this hasn't been done before and it has been done with the dozens of baal's.

metabog
March 1st, 2008, 02:59 AM
It's Carson. The real carson. The clone part is just sentimentality and plotworthyness. I always it to be clone-related, but I was hoping the dead carson would've been a clone, and the captured one the original. But who Cares, he's back and this was a really great episode.

Nitegate
March 1st, 2008, 03:13 AM
i agree, it was a great episode, just disappointed that a clone is the living one. but people were right, Michael did take samples from when he was knocked out on Misbegotten.

AutumnDream
March 1st, 2008, 03:30 AM
I always it to be clone-related, but I was hoping the dead carson would've been a clone, and the captured one the original.

That's what I was expecting. I've seen every episode of SGA, but I'm not exactly intimately familiar with the minutiae... could someone tell me if such a thing would have been possible and logical given the events of Season 3?

memnarch
March 1st, 2008, 04:36 AM
I agree. I've been wondering where the hints were supposedly hidden in season 3. I may have to rewatch those episodes...

The_Carpenter
March 1st, 2008, 05:56 AM
I agree. I've been wondering where the hints were supposedly hidden in season 3. I may have to rewatch those episodes...
Its in Vengenance

I'll let you figure out which line ;)

kymeric
March 1st, 2008, 06:01 AM
Same difference, yeesh. Heres the choice: clone carson or no carson. Then ill let u explain to everyone why theres no carson, lol

Elite Anubis Guard
March 1st, 2008, 06:38 AM
Its in Vengenance

I'll let you figure out which line ;)

I've known about it this for a while but I never picked up on anything. Having seen the episode, I'll have to go back and watch it again tonight or something.

As for Joe saying it was the real Carson, there's no wonder he got so pissed off at being misquoted. I saw nothing wrong with the clone mostly because of how it played out.

Briangate78
March 1st, 2008, 06:58 AM
Oy this is what happens when people are misquoted. :S

Pharaoh Atem
March 1st, 2008, 07:03 AM
Joe Mallozzi never said that he wouldn't be a clone. What he did say was that it would be Carson in the flesh, which some people took to mean the original, and thus the rumours started.

flesh is better then a replicator i can lve wit him being a clone

sweetsamurai
March 1st, 2008, 07:56 AM
As someone who has been rallying and protesting to bring Carson Beckett back and written letters to the writers on how stupid it was to kill him - I was so excited about his return and this episode.

But, I didn't like this 'cloning' idea and the episode itself was not terrible but it wasn't that great either. Loved the idea that he was kidnapped in Misbegotten and the Carson who died in the explosion was the clone - NOW that was an excellent and clever way to bring our Carson back.

They bring Carson back, but not really back, and then they nearly kill the Carson again and now he is frozen.

Not happy - I shall write another letter I think...:(

I don't understand why you would, as a writer, take away an excellent and unique character who's characteristics and chemisty with say Mckay and the others was blimming marvellous. Oh well. Life is unfair. The writer's are wraiths. lol.

Think I will go get my frustration out on the punchbag :(

Barbaro
March 1st, 2008, 08:18 AM
I can't believe that Michael would've had the technology to "clone" Carson's consciousness. We know that the Replicators were able to do that after sticking their hands in someone's head, but why and how would the Wraith have ever developed that technology? They wouldn't have.
Even the Asgard didn't. They simply transferred their conscoiusness from one body to another. So even though I'm glad that Carson's back I don't really like it.
Oh well, won't make me stop watching because of that, anyway. Can't wait for TLM and then Season 5.

kymeric
March 1st, 2008, 08:42 AM
I can't believe that Michael would've had the technology to "clone" Carson's consciousness. We know that the Replicators were able to do that after sticking their hands in someone's head, but why and how would the Wraith have ever developed that technology? They wouldn't have.
Even the Asgard didn't. They simply transferred their conscoiusness from one body to another. So even though I'm glad that Carson's back I don't really like it.
Oh well, won't make me stop watching because of that, anyway. Can't wait for TLM and then Season 5.

Saw that twice this season and in both cases it took zpms to make full adults. Not sure if the wraith zpmclones had fullmemories but the duplicate sga-1 team had full memories/identity

maylet
March 1st, 2008, 09:40 AM
It's Carson. The real carson. The clone part is just sentimentality and plotworthyness. I always it to be clone-related, but I was hoping the dead carson would've been a clone, and the captured one the original. But who Cares, he's back and this was a really great episode.

I agree, lets just be happy he's back

ciannwn
March 1st, 2008, 10:04 AM
Loved the idea that he was kidnapped in Misbegotten and the Carson who died in the explosion was the clone - NOW that was an excellent and clever way to bring our Carson back.

There was no way that Michael could have made a clone of Carson in 'Misbegotten'. The camp he was in didn't have the kind of technology which could be cannibalised and turned into a cloning machine. All he could do was take samples for later and make a clone when he had the means to do so.

Vala_M
March 1st, 2008, 10:12 AM
Because we all know that clones aren't treated with the same dignity and respect as the original. How would any of you feel if you were taken away and a clone was put in your place? Wouldn't you feel mad and cheated? That is what everyone means by the clone is not the original.


Saw that twice this season and in both cases it took zpms to make full adults. Not sure if the wraith zpmclones had fullmemories but the duplicate sga-1 team had full memories/identity

That always seemed over-exaggerated to me. Or is that just nanite constructed clones? Because Ba'al didn't have ZPM's yet he made 20+ clones of himself so I don't think that Michael would need a ZPM to construct a clone.

Vala,

Black Panther
March 1st, 2008, 10:13 AM
It's Carson. The real carson. The clone part is just sentimentality and plotworthyness. I always it to be clone-related, but I was hoping the dead carson would've been a clone, and the captured one the original. But who Cares, he's back and this was a really great episode.

He is not the real Carson. The real Carson died in Sunday, and he is never coming back. No matter how much he looks, acts, or others wish him to be he is not the real Carson.

Personally I didn't have that much of an emotional attachment to this clone. Don't get me wrong I pitied him as I would any person who is in his predicament. I also agreed with what Rodney said about him not being a cheap copy. I am all for clone rights!:cool: It's just that the only emotional attachment I felt towards him mainly stemmed from the fact that he resembled Carson so closely, and the others felt like they were losing Carson again. Ultimately it was like watching a stranger go through that. Which is fitting because he is a stranger.

xSFx
March 1st, 2008, 10:24 AM
What's the big difference between "Carson.exe" and "Copy of Carson.exe" ?
From a scientific point of view: absolutely irrelevant.

Ok, the living Carson needs to take some meds, but that's it.

gopher65
March 1st, 2008, 10:40 AM
He is not the real Carson. The real Carson died in Sunday, and he is never coming back. No matter how much he looks, acts, or others wish him to be he is not the real Carson.

Personally I didn't have that much of an emotional attachment to this clone. Don't get me wrong I pitied him as I would any person who is in his predicament. I also agreed with what Rodney said about him not being a cheap copy. I am all for clone rights!:cool: It's just that the only emotional attachment I felt towards him mainly stemmed from the fact that he resembled Carson so closely, and the others felt like they were losing Carson again. Ultimately it was like watching a stranger go through that. Which is fitting because he is a stranger.
That's exactly how I felt. I was kind of surprised by this, but my mind treated him like a new character who just happened to somewhat resemble the old character. I felt no emotional attachment to him.

I'd have preferred if the one who died in Sunday had been a clone too.

The.Road.Not.Taken
March 1st, 2008, 10:42 AM
What's the big difference between "Carson.exe" and "Copy of Carson.exe" ?
From a scientific point of view: absolutely irrelevant.

Ok, the living Carson needs to take some meds, but that's it.

there memorys are different upto a point and we wont see clone carson for a while because he is in statis pod :( but i am curious why is he only in 5 eps in atlantis next season when we know keller will get the meds for him

Gaeth
March 1st, 2008, 10:50 AM
Well he's not the 'original' Carson, but he's certainly his closest living heir.

ShadowMaat
March 1st, 2008, 10:54 AM
It's cheap, it's gimmicky, and it is not the "real" Carson. The clone has not shared all of the same experiences, thoughts and memories of the original; how could he when his life for the past two years has been so wildly different from how the original lived? They may have started off virtually the same, but they started to diverge even before the clone was created- from the moment the genetic material was taken they've been following different paths and they are no more the same that an AU Carson would be. In fact, you could almost say that the clone IS an AU Carson because injections aside this is pretty much how Carson would probably be if he had been abducted by Michael.

I'm all for clones as real people, but they're nowhere near the same as the original. On a genetic level, maybe, and in this case that includes the original's memories and personality, but a clone is a distinct individual and thus not the same. Not in my opinion, anyway.

xSFx
March 1st, 2008, 11:21 AM
Well, what does "original" mean? This is what I want to challenge :)

Here's an interesting read:


I have changed my mind about my body. I used to think of it as a kind of hardware on which my mental and behavioral software was running. Now, I primarily think of my body as software.

My body is not like a typical material object, a stable thing. It is more like a flame, a river or an eddie. Matter is flowing through it all the time. The constituents are being replaced over and over again.

A chair or a table is stable because the atoms stay where they are. The stability of a river stems from the constant flow of water through it.

98 percent of the atoms in the body are replaced every year. 98 percent! Water molecules stays in your body for two weeks (and for an even shorter time in a hot climate), the atoms in your bones stays there for a few months. Some atoms stay for years. But almost not one single atom stay with you in your body from cradle to grave.

What is constant in you is not material. An average person takes in 1.5 ton of matter every year as food, drinks and oxygen. All this matter has to learn to be you. Every year. New atoms will have to learn to remember your childhood.

These numbers has been known for half a century or more, mostly from studies of radioactive isotopes. Physicist Richard Feynman said in 1955: "Last week's potatoes! They now can remember what was going on in your mind a year ago."

But why is this simple insight not on the all-time Top 10 list of important discoveries? Perhaps because it tastes a little like spiritualism and idealism? Only the ghosts are for real? Wandering souls?

But digital media now makes it possible to think of all this in a simple way. The music I danced to as a teenager has been moved from vinyl-LPs to magnetic audio tapes to CDs to Pods and whatnot. The physical representation can change and is not important — as long as it is there. The music can jump from medium to medium, but it is lost if it does not have a representation. This physics of information was sorted out by Rolf Landauer in the 1960'ies. Likewise, out memories can move from potato-atoms to burger-atoms to banana-atoms. But the moment they are on their own, they are lost.

We reincarnate ourselves all the time. We constantly give our personality new flesh. I keep my mental life alive by making it jump from atom to atom. A constant flow. Never the same atoms, always the same river. No flow, no river. No flow, no me.

This is what I call permanent reincarnation: Software replacing its hardware all the time. Atoms replacing atoms all the time. Life. This is very different from religious reincarnation with souls jumping from body to body (and souls sitting out there waiting for a body to take home in).

There has to be material continuity for permanent reincarnation to be possible. The software is what is preserved, but it cannot live on its own. It has to jump from molecule to molecule, always in carnation.

I have changed my mind about the stability of my body: It keeps changing all the time. Or I could not stay the same.

------
TOR NORRETRANDERS
Science Writer; Consultant; Lecturer, Copenhagen; Author, The Generous Man
Permanent Reincarnation

In this context, what difference does it make if one is the "cloned" person and the other is the "clonee" ?
It's certainly not the stuff they're made of that makes them different.
It's not even the genetic difference regarding the telomers (they were still the same persons even after they got the ATA gene treatment).

Seftrex
March 1st, 2008, 11:56 AM
there memorys are different upto a point and we wont see clone carson for a while because he is in statis pod :( but i am curious why is he only in 5 eps in atlantis next season when we know keller will get the meds for him

I would hardly say for awhile :P
He is in the second episode of the next season, so my guess is he is cured between "The Last Man" and "Search and Rescue".

Detox
March 1st, 2008, 11:59 AM
there memorys are different upto a point and we wont see clone carson for a while because he is in statis pod :( but i am curious why is he only in 5 eps in atlantis next season when we know keller will get the meds for him

Isn't it obvious? It's gonna take a while for them to hunt down Michael and get the cure.

The_Carpenter
March 1st, 2008, 01:52 PM
Isn't it obvious? It's gonna take a while for them to hunt down Michael and get the cure.

I would guess that they get the cure early on in Season 5, but he is only recurring due to the IOAs views on him being a security risk

Tis my guess and I think it makes sense.... but then I would :)

Aurora24
March 1st, 2008, 03:40 PM
I wonder what's gonna happen to Carson once he gets cured. I mean he remembers having a life and close family back home on Earth, however since he's a clone so when he leaves Atlantis what will happen to him? I mean it's not like he'll be allowed to go home to the people he thinks of as his family because he's not technically him. I feel sorry for him because of this. He remembers a whole life that I doubt that the military and the IOA will allow him to become involved in.

Briangate78
March 1st, 2008, 03:43 PM
Carson is going to be in at least 5 eps. They have been stressing the "at least" part. So we may see him in even more. I truly hope so. As per the clone thing. Well I posted another thread. I am happy with the clone, heck it worked in Farscape. Same thing really. Carson is an exact copy with all the memories. Nothing less, except for the DNA flaw which I am sure they will find a cure next season. :)

Integrabyte
March 1st, 2008, 03:55 PM
What's the big difference between "Carson.exe" and "Copy of Carson.exe" ?
From a scientific point of view: absolutely irrelevant.

Ok, the living Carson needs to take some meds, but that's it.

When I go up to my secretary and I ask for 50 copies for a contract, does she do 50 originals?

xSFx
March 1st, 2008, 03:57 PM
When I go up to my secretary and I ask for 50 copies for a contract, does she do 50 originals?She'd better. Any secretary that leaves repli-Contracts on the loose should be fired! :D

Willow'sCat
March 1st, 2008, 04:22 PM
Clones are not an exact copy of the original. Even SGA got that part right, this Carson is not the exact copy of the real one... his DNA has aged for a start.

I guess for me there are somethings in scifi that I just hate and on top of that list are back from the dead and duplicate copies of those once dead. For me this just stinks of the worse thing in scifi you can do.

I don't care if some say it worked in other shows, may be you just think it worked. So we now let clone Carson operated on folks, sleep with gals, have kids and pretend he isn't a mutant! Sorry but I wouldn't even eat a cloned animal so what makes you think I would except a cloned human as part of Atlantis.:cool:

At least with Replicators you know where you stand. ;):cool:

Cycrow
March 1st, 2008, 07:06 PM
I can't believe that Michael would've had the technology to "clone" Carson's consciousness. We know that the Replicators were able to do that after sticking their hands in someone's head, but why and how would the Wraith have ever developed that technology? They wouldn't have.
Even the Asgard didn't. They simply transferred their conscoiusness from one body to another. So even though I'm glad that Carson's back I don't really like it.
Oh well, won't make me stop watching because of that, anyway. Can't wait for TLM and then Season 5.

well, the wraith did have the technology to clone. And they used it 10'000 years ago during thier war with the anicents. So we know they have at least some cloning tech. Its possible micheal had some knowledge, he could have also got some knowledge from atlantis. Hes already demonstrated that hes pretty good with science.

also, we dont really know that the asguard couldn't create proper clones. They could have been able to, but didn't agree with it, so just transfered consciousness

Cycrow
March 1st, 2008, 07:07 PM
That always seemed over-exaggerated to me. Or is that just nanite constructed clones? Because Ba'al didn't have ZPM's yet he made 20+ clones of himself so I don't think that Michael would need a ZPM to construct a clone.

Vala,

well, wasn't the point of the ZPM the wraith used because they were making 1000's of clones, not just a handful ?

Detox
March 1st, 2008, 11:17 PM
I would guess that they get the cure early on in Season 5, but he is only recurring due to the IOAs views on him being a security risk

Tis my guess and I think it makes sense.... but then I would :)

Well, Joe M mentioned in his blog about an episode where Carson's stuck off world with an all female team.

So I assume that would mean he's back on active duty.

Integrabyte
March 2nd, 2008, 02:03 AM
well, the wraith did have the technology to clone. And they used it 10'000 years ago during thier war with the anicents. So we know they have at least some cloning tech. Its possible micheal had some knowledge, he could have also got some knowledge from atlantis. Hes already demonstrated that hes pretty good with science.

also, we dont really know that the asguard couldn't create proper clones. They could have been able to, but didn't agree with it, so just transfered consciousness


One problem here. They were cloning mindless drones. That is a big difference...This whole Michael got the knowledge behind the scenes is pure speculation and an excuse for the lack of info in the episode.

Pitry
March 2nd, 2008, 02:26 AM
Hey, I'm all for clones as the next person, but if we let this go on they'll soon be taking our jobs, living in our homes and giving our children the idea it's normal to be a clone... er. ;)


Seriuosly though.My problem isn't that Carson is a clone per se. I can live with that. The problem is that he's susceptible to Michael's influene. The path to "yet one more rogue Atlantis team member on the loose in the galaxy" is very short. And considering Weir after Ford, I won't be surprised if that's the path they'd choose for Carson, which will make me very unhappy!

rens14
March 2nd, 2008, 02:38 AM
the clone carson misses almost a year of memories from misbegotten through sunday and that's a big gap

MechaThor
March 2nd, 2008, 04:35 AM
I rather liked the whole Clone thing, Just as long as they don't do the Baal thing and keep killing him off then bringing in more and more Clones. I love how all 3 of the mian cast removed from the show are not still out their only ecah with a tiny diffrence
1. Ford: Should be dead but is still alive and now has superhuman powers due to wraith
2. Weir: Died but turned into replicator (twice)
3. Carson: Died butr remade as Wraith based Clone.

Why don't any of the other background SGC soilders which get killed every episode ever come back? That would be a funny twist!

kymeric
March 2nd, 2008, 06:34 AM
Because we all know that clones aren't treated with the same dignity and respect as the original. How would any of you feel if you were taken away and a clone was put in your place? Wouldn't you feel mad and cheated? That is what everyone means by the clone is not the original.



That always seemed over-exaggerated to me. Or is that just nanite constructed clones? Because Ba'al didn't have ZPM's yet he made 20+ clones of himself so I don't think that Michael would need a ZPM to construct a clone.

Vala,

Guaould have genetic memories, other clones without this need every synapse and neuron connection exactly replicated, i bet this could take some doing (power)

kymeric
March 2nd, 2008, 06:38 AM
He is not the real Carson. The real Carson died in Sunday, and he is never coming back. No matter how much he looks, acts, or others wish him to be he is not the real Carson.

Personally I didn't have that much of an emotional attachment to this clone. Don't get me wrong I pitied him as I would any person who is in his predicament. I also agreed with what Rodney said about him not being a cheap copy. I am all for clone rights!:cool: It's just that the only emotional attachment I felt towards him mainly stemmed from the fact that he resembled Carson so closely, and the others felt like they were losing Carson again. Ultimately it was like watching a stranger go through that. Which is fitting because he is a stranger.

Hate to be a stick in the mud, but there is no REAL carson. Maybe thats too fourth wall but there it is. Both are characters portrayed by MG and theyre identical roles with only slightly different backstories.

ShadowMaat
March 2nd, 2008, 06:47 AM
:rolleyes: Real within the context of the show.

And who's MG? I thought Paul McGillion played Carson?

TDgamer
March 2nd, 2008, 06:54 AM
I have a question for all of you "I wish we had found out that the clone had died in Sunday and this was the real one".

How would it be any different (other than the degenerative disease) if this was the real Carson and the clone died? They would still be missing all the time between "Misbegotten" and "Kindred". <snip...do not call others names>. Wishing it was the other way around would only change the fact that the Carson they found would not currently be in a stasis cell. That is the only thing that would change.

Mackan
March 2nd, 2008, 07:33 AM
Well, it was pretty obvious to me that Carson would had been cloned by Michael to make this work. And watching this episode, no surprise.

Black Panther
March 2nd, 2008, 09:41 AM
Hate to be a stick in the mud, but there is no REAL carson. Maybe thats too fourth wall but there it is. Both are characters portrayed by MG and theyre identical roles with only slightly different backstories.

Now you are just getting too technical. You know what I meant.:p


How would it be any different (other than the degenerative disease) if this was the real Carson and the clone died? They would still be missing all the time between "Misbegotten" and "Kindred". All of you who are complaining about this are complete idiots. Wishing it was the other way around would only change the fact that the Carson they found would not currently be in a stasis cell. That is the only thing that would change.

First, there is no reason to insult people just because they have a different view point from your own.

Now to answer yours and others question about what is different. I can think of one glaring difference. He isn't Carson. Carson is dead. Now that we have his clone doesn't make him any less dead. This Carson can't live for him. Carson doesn't some how gain a second life through Clone Carson. Our Carson no longer experiences life. Clone Carson is little more than an illusion. His memories, except for the ones he has since he was made, are false. This is no different then when Cameron was implanted with Dr. Marell's memories and made to believe he killed Reya in Collateral Damage. Just because he remembered killing her didn't make him the murder. The same with Clone Carson. Just because he has Carson's memories and was made to believe he is Carson doesn't make him Carson. Like I said before just because he looks, acts, and sounds like Carson doesn't make him Carson. No matter how much we wish him to be. Sorry, but I am not going to delude myself into believing he is something he isn't. I prefer facts not sentiment.

MechaThor
March 2nd, 2008, 09:45 AM
I just remembered we (as in the sci-fi community) have seen something rather similar to this before in Farscape! Inwhich Bens character spent also an entire Series playing two John Clones on in two diffrent locations!

Man that was a dam good Farscape storyline, Shame we only got a hint of the twi lives with this Beckett Clone arc.

jenks
March 2nd, 2008, 10:04 AM
Now to answer yours and others question about what is different. I can think of one glaring difference. He isn't Carson. Carson is dead. Now that we have his clone doesn't make him any less dead. This Carson can't live for him. Carson doesn't some how gain a second life through Clone Carson. Our Carson no longer experiences life. Clone Carson is little more than an illusion. His memories, except for the ones he has since he was made, are false. This is no different then when Cameron was implanted with Dr. Marell's memories and made to believe he killed Reya in Collateral Damage. Just because he remembered killing her didn't make him the murder. The same with Clone Carson. Just because he has Carson's memories and was made to believe he is Carson doesn't make him Carson. Like I said before just because he looks, acts, and sounds like Carson doesn't make him Carson. No matter how much we wish him to be. Sorry, but I am not going to delude myself into believing he is something he isn't. I prefer facts not sentiment.

Actually no, sentiment is exactly what you're going for. From our point of view, he is exactly the same as Carson, the only way he isn't is if you get sentimental about the old one as if he were real, he's not. Carson is a fictional character, if looking, acting and sounding like Carson doesn't make him Carson then nothing does.

Seftrex
March 2nd, 2008, 11:19 AM
To quote Rodney:

As far as I'm concerned, one of the best friends I have ever had has come back from the dead.

The way Mckay sees Beckett, is the way we should all look at it and not just see him as a fake.

Could you truely say that you would look at him differently?

At the end of the day, to quote Rodney again:

He is Carson

Though, I can still see anti-clone peoples view on it.

The.Road.Not.Taken
March 2nd, 2008, 11:23 AM
To quote Rodney:

As far as I'm concerned, one of the best friends I have ever had has come back from the dead.

The way Mckay sees Beckett, is the way we should all look at it and not just see him as a fake.

Could you truely say that you would look at him differently?

At the end of the day, to quote Rodney again:

He is Carson

Though, I can still see anti-clone peoples view on it.

thank you aslong as the charatcher see him as carson why are you all disapointed he is a clone its carson anit it be happy with what your given or would you rather have no carson at all

Black Panther
March 2nd, 2008, 11:54 AM
Actually no, sentiment is exactly what you're going for. From our point of view, he is exactly the same as Carson, the only way he isn't is if you get sentimental about the old one as if he were real, he's not. Carson is a fictional character, if looking, acting and sounding like Carson doesn't make him Carson then nothing does.

Actually he is not the same. As been brought out before. This Carson has been engineered by Michael and been with him all this time. When our Carson hasn't. That alone makes him different.

I'm not sure I am being the sentimental one. Are people really that desperate to have Carson back that they are willing to accept a replica. (Hmmm, perhaps we are all being sentimental just in two different ways.)

Let me state that I personally have no problem with Clone Carson. I am just against the mentality that he is some how truly Carson and can replace him. I know this is a show and that Carson and Clone Carson truly don't exist. The fact that it is the same actor makes this character not all that different from the original, but that doesn't change the fact this isn't the original character.

Again I have nothing against Clone Carson. I just don't agree with him being the true Carson.

ShadowMaat
March 2nd, 2008, 11:56 AM
Mmmm.... Just because Rodney says, "As far as I'm concerned, one of the best friends I have ever had has come back from the dead" doesn't make it true. Carson was his best friend. Of course he's going to grasp an any chance of getting him back! It's a version of Carson, yes, but it isn't the Carson they lost in Sunday. The clone might make a good substitute, but IMO he can never be the real thing.

If Carson 2 had been brought over from an alternate universe, one where Michael really had abducted him and had somehow escaped into "our" reality to be rescued by "our" team, would that make him "our" Carson? No. He'd be an AU Carson. But it's just as likely that McKay would have said the same thing about getting his friend back from the dead.

Nitegate
March 2nd, 2008, 05:18 PM
I wonder what's gonna happen to Carson once he gets cured. I mean he remembers having a life and close family back home on Earth, however since he's a clone so when he leaves Atlantis what will happen to him? I mean it's not like he'll be allowed to go home to the people he thinks of as his family because he's not technically him. I feel sorry for him because of this. He remembers a whole life that I doubt that the military and the IOA will allow him to become involved in.

why wouldn't they let him go home to his family, look at cloned mini jack o'neill in season 7, they let him live on earth.

BubblingOverWithIdeas
March 2nd, 2008, 06:08 PM
The point is that this is not Carson, this is a genetically engineered identical twin brother of Carson with Carson's memories implanted in his mind. He's not a "fake" or a "cheap copy", but he is a different human individual from the Carson Beckett that the team knew. It's better than no appearances, of course, and it provides a reason for him to be recurring rather than regular (though going back to his family or dealing with personal issues might also qualify as such a reason).

I sympathize with him as much as I would with Carson, I just think they should address at some point in Season Five that this is another man. Having the same memories does not make him the same consciousness, and having the same DNA certainly doesn't (witness real-life identical siblings, or Boomer and Athena on BSG).

TDgamer
March 2nd, 2008, 09:01 PM
Okay, so maybe I went a little too far. My apologies.

But my point stands. If this Carson was the real one, and it was the clone that died in "Sunday" it would still be the same situation. It would have been clone Carson that was the first to admire Lucius in "Irresistable". It would have been the clone Carson that fired the shots that saved Ronon in "Sateda". It would have been the clone Carson that struggled to save Marines that he believed were still alive in "Phantoms". Most importantly, it would have been the clone Carson that we felt sorry for when nobody would go fishing with. The clone who had made everyone leave the infirmary so that he could operate on an explosive tumor. The clone, who made the ultimate sacrifice in order to save a scientist.

And it would have been the real Carson who would have none of these memories. The real Carson who had been living in captivity for the last two years. And most importantly, the real Carson who had been coerced into recreating a protein that is killing almost 30% of the population who is exposed to it!

Does it REALLY matter?

erb
March 2nd, 2008, 09:13 PM
Not sure if this was already mentioned (if so, I apologize), but what if the Carson in Sunday and the Carson from The Kindred were both clones and the original Carson is still out there?

No, I don't have an explanation, but then I don't know how this clone Carson has Carson's memories either. And Joe M. did say something along the lines of only Michael knowing how. (I hope this isn't a euphemism for the writers' not having figured it out yet.)

TDgamer
March 2nd, 2008, 09:20 PM
Not sure if this was already mentioned (if so, I apologize), but what if the Carson in Sunday and the Carson from The Kindred were both clones and the original Carson is still out there?

No, I don't have an explanation, but then I don't know how this clone Carson has Carson's memories either. And Joe M. did say something along the lines of only Michael knowing how. (I hope this isn't a euphemism for the writers' not having figured it out yet.)

Not likely. The clone needs the injection and if the one who died in "Sunday" was a clone he would have needed it as well.

erb
March 2nd, 2008, 09:32 PM
Not likely. The clone needs the injection and if the one who died in "Sunday" was a clone he would have needed it as well.

Or not. Could be a different type of clone.

I'm not wedded to this idea. The one in Sunday being the original and the one in The Kindred being a clone is the easiest explanation, but that doesn't necessarily make it so.

From a revenge standpoint, you'd think Michael would want original Carson. But, if he couldn't manage it, he couldn't manage it, I suppose.

sg1_david
March 3rd, 2008, 10:00 AM
I've never been one of those "angry" fans before but this really annoys me. The last 5 seconds of Part 1 were the best 5 seconds of Atlantis for ages. The best character Atlantis has had is back - then they tell us he's a clone? COME ON!

Chalk up another for "wish the clone had died in Sunday".

Black Panther
March 3rd, 2008, 01:19 PM
The point is that this is not Carson, this is a genetically engineered identical twin brother of Carson with Carson's memories implanted in his mind. He's not a "fake" or a "cheap copy", but he is a different human individual from the Carson Beckett that the team knew. It's better than no appearances, of course, and it provides a reason for him to be recurring rather than regular (though going back to his family or dealing with personal issues might also qualify as such a reason).

I sympathize with him as much as I would with Carson, I just think they should address at some point in Season Five that this is another man. Having the same memories does not make him the same consciousness, and having the same DNA certainly doesn't (witness real-life identical siblings, or Boomer and Athena on BSG).

I completely agree. My sister and I were talking about this yesterday. We have come to the conclusion that it is disrespectful and insulting to make the Clone Carson a replacement for Carson. Not only for the original but for the clone as well. He is an idividual that deserves to be loved for who he is and have his own life.:cool:

sg1_david
March 3rd, 2008, 01:21 PM
I agree wae that Black Panther.

TDgamer
March 3rd, 2008, 01:32 PM
Okay, I have a question:

Take away the disease. That is the only indicator that this is a clone and not the real Carson. Just for ****s and giggles, let us say that we did not know whether the one they rescued or the one that died was the clone or the real one. Would that change your opinion of him at all? For all intents and purposes, this is the real Carson. Yes, I realize that he is a clone, but the truth is that anything Carson experienced before "Misbegotten", this clone essentially experienced. If you asked him how he felt when he first sat down in the chair in the Antarctic outpost, or when he stepped through the gate and first laid eyes on the wonder that is Atlantis. If you asked him how scared he was when the shield was on the verge of collapsing and Atlantis being destroyed forever, taking his life with him. Or if you asked how scared he was when the Wraith hive ships were knocking at the door and they had no shield coverage, I guarantee you that he could describe it perfectly. He experienced all that as "our Carson". The only difference between "our Carson" and the clone is the last two years. The only difference is that "our Carson" died and this one spent the last two years forced to work on a protein that kills 30% of the humans who have it forced on them.

<mod snip...opinions about the show are welcome, opinions about the fans are inappropriate>

Mitchell82
March 3rd, 2008, 02:37 PM
Oy this is what happens when people are misquoted. :S
And this surprises you how? Alot of people have misquoted that. Personally as much as I hoped it would be the old Carson it couldn't have been done better IMO.

Hypochondriac
March 3rd, 2008, 03:45 PM
I'm kind of glad it's a clone. If it had been the real carson, I would be complaining about the absurdity of Michel being able to make a clone so fast on that planet with next to 0 equipment

ToasterOnFire
March 3rd, 2008, 04:05 PM
Okay, I have a question:

Take away the disease. That is the only indicator that this is a clone and not the real Carson.
What about the fact that Carson couldn't shoot Michael? Obviously there's more to the clone than just duplicated DNA and memories - it is NOT "our Carson". Who knows what other surprises Michael has implanted into Carson.

BubblingOverWithIdeas
March 3rd, 2008, 04:58 PM
I'm kind of glad it's a clone. If it had been the real carson, I would be complaining about the absurdity of Michel being able to make a clone so fast on that planet with next to 0 equipment

Now the only problem is how Michael copied Beckett's memories and personality without having him present. Unless he stored those within those own mind after using his psi powers to coerce Beckett in "Misbegotten" (as we saw).

Mitchell82
March 3rd, 2008, 05:25 PM
Now the only problem is how Michael copied Beckett's memories and personality without having him present. Unless he stored those within those own mind after using his psi powers to coerce Beckett in "Misbegotten" (as we saw).

I'd say it's likely that's how he has his memories.

Gaeth
March 3rd, 2008, 05:33 PM
I'm kind of glad it's a clone. If it had been the real carson, I would be complaining about the absurdity of Michel being able to make a clone so fast on that planet with next to 0 equipment

They could've had the Asurans clone him and then somehow Michael stole the clone. That would've required a lot more backtracking though.

Amalthea
March 3rd, 2008, 08:59 PM
I don't mind that he's a clone. As was noted in another thread, the Asgard were all clones and they were still accepted (yes I know there's a difference between how they went about the consciousness downloading). The fact that he was cloned doesn't mean that we can pretend that the original Carson is still alive, of course, but it's nice that Michael's science has allowed a part of him to live on. It's something and it's the most realistic way to get him back.

TDgamer
March 3rd, 2008, 09:42 PM
What about the fact that Carson couldn't shoot Michael? Obviously there's more to the clone than just duplicated DNA and memories - it is NOT "our Carson". Who knows what other surprises Michael has implanted into Carson.

Do you honestly think that the real Carson would have been able to pull that trigger? Think about this:

Michael is the way he is BECAUSE of Carson. Carson created the retrovirus that worked for a short time, but then failed. It is Carson's fault that he is this Wraith/Human hybrid thing. At least, if I were Carson that is how I would feel. And since when has Carson ever killed ANYBODY at point blank range. Has he ever killed anyone intentionally?

Nitegate
March 3rd, 2008, 10:24 PM
Carson has an oath to not take a life, but to save lives as being a doctor. He didn't hesitate to shoot those 2 who were escorting Teyla IN THE BACK of all things. He would never have done that before.

He didn't pull the trigger cause he knew if he killed Michael, he would be dead for sure without getting a cure, where he could have put an end to it, but he can shoot those other 2 in the back.

TDgamer
March 3rd, 2008, 10:45 PM
Carson has an oath to not take a life, but to save lives as being a doctor. He didn't hesitate to shoot those 2 who were escorting Teyla IN THE BACK of all things. He would never have done that before.

He didn't pull the trigger cause he knew if he killed Michael, he would be dead for sure without getting a cure, where he could have put an end to it, but he can shoot those other 2 in the back.

Okay, but he was not staring his own creation in the face, trying to determine if he could actually shoot him. Shooting in the back is one thing, but to look someone in the eyes and pull the trigger is quite another.

Nitegate
March 4th, 2008, 02:33 AM
Okay, but he was not staring his own creation in the face, trying to determine if he could actually shoot him. Shooting in the back is one thing, but to look someone in the eyes and pull the trigger is quite another.

i'm not saying on killing Michael, i'm saying even pulling the trigger and killing 2 men without hesitation, he would never have done that before.

TDgamer
March 4th, 2008, 02:50 AM
i'm not saying on killing Michael, i'm saying even pulling the trigger and killing 2 men without hesitation, he would never have done that before.

Yes, but I would imagine that two years in solitude, forced to work on the protein, plus seeing Teyla for the first time, and her being pregnant, a lot changed in that moment.

Mitchell82
March 4th, 2008, 07:57 AM
I don't mind that he's a clone. As was noted in another thread, the Asgard were all clones and they were still accepted (yes I know there's a difference between how they went about the consciousness downloading). The fact that he was cloned doesn't mean that we can pretend that the original Carson is still alive, of course, but it's nice that Michael's science has allowed a part of him to live on. It's something and it's the most realistic way to get him back.
Wow very good outlook on this. I agree 100%.

BubblingOverWithIdeas
March 4th, 2008, 08:33 AM
Michael is the way he is BECAUSE of Carson. Carson created the retrovirus that worked for a short time, but then failed. It is Carson's fault that he is this Wraith/Human hybrid thing. At least, if I were Carson that is how I would feel. And since when has Carson ever killed ANYBODY at point blank range. Has he ever killed anyone intentionally?

The Wraith Leader in 'Sateda', which Carson2 would have no memory of.

ToasterOnFire
March 4th, 2008, 09:09 AM
Do you honestly think that the real Carson would have been able to pull that trigger? Think about this:

Michael is the way he is BECAUSE of Carson. Carson created the retrovirus that worked for a short time, but then failed. It is Carson's fault that he is this Wraith/Human hybrid thing. At least, if I were Carson that is how I would feel. And since when has Carson ever killed ANYBODY at point blank range. Has he ever killed anyone intentionally?
Michael has obviously manipulated clone!Carson to make him susceptible to Michael's influence. From the transcript:

BECKETT: Stay back. I'm warning you.
TEYLA (savagely): Shoot him, Carson. Shoot him now!
(Unafraid, Michael steps forward again, staring into Carson's eyes. Carson's hand starts to tremble.)
MICHAEL: He doesn't want to shoot me. Or, to be more precise, he'd like nothing more but – like all of my creations – he is open to my influence.
(Carson snarls as he tries to pull the trigger, but he can't do it.)
TEYLA (pleading): Carson.
BECKETT (anguished): I'm sorry, Teyla.

Real Carson would have at least been able to choose whether to shoot Michael or not. Even if it's something that isn't in his character, he at least has that ability. Do you think that real Carson wouldn't be able to kill Michael if Michael was about to kill Teyla? No way, he'd shoot him on the spot.

Conversely, clone!Carson has been programmed to have no choice in the matter period, no matter if anyone he cared about was going to die. The clone is obviously different from the original.

Mitchell82
March 4th, 2008, 09:11 AM
Michael has obviously manipulated clone!Carson to make him susceptible to Michael's influence. From the transcript:

BECKETT: Stay back. I'm warning you.
TEYLA (savagely): Shoot him, Carson. Shoot him now!
(Unafraid, Michael steps forward again, staring into Carson's eyes. Carson's hand starts to tremble.)
MICHAEL: He doesn't want to shoot me. Or, to be more precise, he'd like nothing more but – like all of my creations – he is open to my influence.
(Carson snarls as he tries to pull the trigger, but he can't do it.)
TEYLA (pleading): Carson.
BECKETT (anguished): I'm sorry, Teyla.

Real Carson would have at least been able to choose whether to shoot Michael or not. Even if it's something that isn't in his character, he at least has that ability. Do you think that real Carson wouldn't be able to kill Michael if Michael was about to kill Teyla? No way, he'd shoot him on the spot.

Conversely, clone!Carson has been programmed to have no choice in the matter period, no matter if anyone he cared about was going to die. The clone is obviously different from the original.

I disagree. The only difference is yes the real Carson would have shot him but from what I saw in Kindred that is the only difference. He is identical to him in every other aspect.

Vala_M
March 4th, 2008, 11:48 AM
well, wasn't the point of the ZPM the wraith used because they were making 1000's of clones, not just a handful ?

Yes, but the whole ZPM to clone thing never made sense beyond that anyway.

Vala,

Pitry
March 4th, 2008, 03:47 PM
Do you honestly think that the real Carson would have been able to pull that trigger? Think about this:

Michael is the way he is BECAUSE of Carson. Carson created the retrovirus that worked for a short time, but then failed. It is Carson's fault that he is this Wraith/Human hybrid thing. At least, if I were Carson that is how I would feel. And since when has Carson ever killed ANYBODY at point blank range. Has he ever killed anyone intentionally?

Other than what Toaster has already answered, there's another point to it - Carson pre Misbegotten, no, he wouldn't have shot Michael. But this Carson (clone TM) was kept prisoner, seen innocent people being murdered and was forced to help their murdered destroy their humanity even more. For almsot two years.
What Carson would have done before misbegotten might not be the best example in this case.

BubblingOverWithIdeas
March 4th, 2008, 03:50 PM
Yes, but the whole ZPM to clone thing never made sense beyond that anyway.

Vala,


It makes sense when you consider that the cloning facility was absolutely enormous, with birthing chambers upon birthing chambers throughout, and therefore required an enormous amount of power to run at full.

Mitchell82
March 4th, 2008, 04:04 PM
It makes sense when you consider that the cloning facility was absolutely enormous, with birthing chambers upon birthing chambers throughout, and therefore required an enormous amount of power to run at full.

Agreed. Not sure where you are going with this though. Are you suggesting that's how Michael cloned him? :confused:

BubblingOverWithIdeas
March 4th, 2008, 05:07 PM
Agreed. Not sure where you are going with this though. Are you suggesting that's how Michael cloned him? :confused:

No, just responding to Vala M's assertion that using a ZPM to clone made no sense. We should return to the topic now.

Mitchell82
March 4th, 2008, 05:23 PM
No, just responding to Vala M's assertion that using a ZPM to clone made no sense. We should return to the topic now.

Topic what's that?

Tupopoflungo
March 5th, 2008, 12:38 AM
Michael has obviously manipulated clone!Carson to make him susceptible to Michael's influence. From the transcript:

BECKETT: Stay back. I'm warning you.
TEYLA (savagely): Shoot him, Carson. Shoot him now!
(Unafraid, Michael steps forward again, staring into Carson's eyes. Carson's hand starts to tremble.)
MICHAEL: He doesn't want to shoot me. Or, to be more precise, he'd like nothing more but – like all of my creations – he is open to my influence.
(Carson snarls as he tries to pull the trigger, but he can't do it.)
TEYLA (pleading): Carson.
BECKETT (anguished): I'm sorry, Teyla.

Real Carson would have at least been able to choose whether to shoot Michael or not. Even if it's something that isn't in his character, he at least has that ability. Do you think that real Carson wouldn't be able to kill Michael if Michael was about to kill Teyla? No way, he'd shoot him on the spot.

Conversely, clone!Carson has been programmed to have no choice in the matter period, no matter if anyone he cared about was going to die. The clone is obviously different from the original.

I disagree. I believe that Michael's comment about being OPEN to his INFLUENCE, means he can only plant the suggestion. The way he worded it would suggest this. He is open to the influence, it does not mean he needs to follow that. To use an example, teenagers are open to the influence of a plethora of things, drugs, smoking, sex, peers... but that does not mean that they are COMPELLED to follow them, in the same manner, Carson is open to Michaels influence, but they are not compelled to follow it. I believe they have a conscious choice in the matter. Carson could not kill the one person that had the best chance of saving his life...and he knew it, also, as a doctor, he has a duty to preserve life.

Because he is Carson Beckett, he essentially went to medical school, he took a Hippocratic oath, which is thusly stated

I will apply dietetic measures for the benefit of the sick according to my ability and judgment; I will keep them from harm and injustice.(Source Here Paragraph 2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocratic_Oath#The_classical_oath))

Therefore, having taken this oath, he must preserve life in all its forms, even a half-breed like Michael. He would not have killed him unless it was absolutely necessary...which it was not, because he needed him.

In a similar situation, from the "Stargate SG-1" episode "Urgo" All of the team members were open to Urgo's influence, but he could not MAKE them do things...just plant the suggestion.

Simply stated, Michael does not have control over Carson, but can simply suggest things.

AutumnDream
March 5th, 2008, 12:57 AM
*sigh*

Orion's Star
March 5th, 2008, 03:23 AM
I disagree. I believe that Michael's comment about being OPEN to his INFLUENCE, means he can only plant the suggestion. The way he worded it would suggest this. He is open to the influence, it does not mean he needs to follow that. To use an example, teenagers are open to the influence of a plethora of things, drugs, smoking, sex, peers... but that does not mean that they are COMPELLED to follow them, in the same manner, Carson is open to Michaels influence, but they are not compelled to follow it. I believe they have a conscious choice in the matter. Carson could not kill the one person that had the best chance of saving his life...and he knew it, also, as a doctor, he has a duty to preserve life.

Because he is Carson Beckett, he essentially went to medical school, he took a Hippocratic oath, which is thusly stated

I will apply dietetic measures for the benefit of the sick according to my ability and judgment; I will keep them from harm and injustice.(Source Here Paragraph 2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocratic_Oath#The_classical_oath))

Therefore, having taken this oath, he must preserve life in all its forms, even a half-breed like Michael. He would not have killed him unless it was absolutely necessary...which it was not, because he needed him.

In a similar situation, from the "Stargate SG-1" episode "Urgo" All of the team members were open to Urgo's influence, but he could not MAKE them do things...just plant the suggestion.

Simply stated, Michael does not have control over Carson, but can simply suggest things.

Uh...what? CloneCarson killed those two guards that were with Teyla without hesitation, remorse, or concern. Are you saying that it was absolutely necessary that CloneCarson shoot those two men in the back but that it wasn't necessary for Carson to shoot Michael, the man who kept him prisoner, has taken Teyla prisoner, tortured and experimented on both of them, and is trying to take Teyla away again? That makes no sense. Also, I'm supposed to believe that Carson (the real Carson) would choose to let a clearly crazy mad scientist take one of his (pregnant!) close friends away because he needs Michael to live? Huuuuuuuuuh?

This is the same person who was blown up by an exploding tumor because he refused to let a person die, and paid the price for his sense of duty, loyalty, and desire to do all he possibly could to save a life. Yet you are saying that here, where Carson's loyalty should be at its most relevant, he would rather save his own neck? No way.

Michael is the one person in the entire freaking Universe Carson (real or clone) actually has a legitimate reason to forego his Hippocratic Oath over and you are saying that he couldn't do it because every life is precious? I'm sure Teyla will be perfectly understanding when CloneCarson tells her that he couldn't shoot the hybrid who went Dr. Frankenstein on her lover, people, and baby, because Michael was really charismatic and he couldn't stop himself from sucumbing to peer pressure.

Hypochondriac
March 5th, 2008, 04:46 AM
Haven't wraith queens gotten trained military personal to drop their weapons? I remember shepard being influenced by a queen, So why can't carson be effected? Michael gained some powers didn't he

BubblingOverWithIdeas
March 5th, 2008, 06:55 AM
Haven't wraith queens gotten trained military personal to drop their weapons? I remember shepard being influenced by a queen, So why can't carson be effected? Michael gained some powers didn't he

Yes, the Wraith have a psychic power of suggestion, most prominently used by queens. Michael has used it before, on Teyla and on Carson1. He designed Carson2 to be extra-susceptible.

MIZA
March 5th, 2008, 11:28 AM
i am pretty sure he said he would not come back as a clone or ascended, i think he lied. and i think there are other ways they could have him come back instead of some defective clone


can someone please show me where JM said that at ?

Mitchell82
March 5th, 2008, 12:31 PM
I disagree. I believe that Michael's comment about being OPEN to his INFLUENCE, means he can only plant the suggestion. The way he worded it would suggest this. He is open to the influence, it does not mean he needs to follow that. To use an example, teenagers are open to the influence of a plethora of things, drugs, smoking, sex, peers... but that does not mean that they are COMPELLED to follow them, in the same manner, Carson is open to Michaels influence, but they are not compelled to follow it. I believe they have a conscious choice in the matter. Carson could not kill the one person that had the best chance of saving his life...and he knew it, also, as a doctor, he has a duty to preserve life.
I disagree. Carson would have shot him in a second. Carson still has a conscious however Michael has a strong hold over Carson and his hybrids. His power alows him to influence his actions.


Because he is Carson Beckett, he essentially went to medical school, he took a Hippocratic oath, which is thusly stated

I will apply dietetic measures for the benefit of the sick according to my ability and judgment; I will keep them from harm and injustice.(Source Here Paragraph 2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocratic_Oath#The_classical_oath))

Therefore, having taken this oath, he must preserve life in all its forms, even a half-breed like Michael. He would not have killed him unless it was absolutely necessary...which it was not, because he needed him.
What?! That argument makes zero sense.


In a similar situation, from the "Stargate SG-1" episode "Urgo" All of the team members were open to Urgo's influence, but he could not MAKE them do things...just plant the suggestion.

Simply stated, Michael does not have control over Carson, but can simply suggest things.
There is a huge diference. Michael actually has the ability to control his actions.

jenks
March 5th, 2008, 02:05 PM
i am pretty sure he said he would not come back as a clone or ascended, i think he lied. and i think there are other ways they could have him come back instead of some defective clone


can someone please show me where JM said that at ?

He never said that.

MIZA
March 5th, 2008, 08:58 PM
He never said that.



yeah he did, he said it in one of those featured news stories on gateworld? which i thought was weird that Carson was a clone, because he said that not how he will come back ?

Jumper_One
March 5th, 2008, 09:02 PM
yeah he did, he said it in one of those featured news stories on gateworld? which i thought was weird that Carson was a clone, because he said that not how he will come back ?


But resurrected he will be -- though we don't yet know how. Executive producer Joseph Mallozzi has told fans that it will be Carson Beckett in the flesh who returns, and not an ascended being, a time-traveler, or alternate universe version of the character.
http://www.gateworld.net/news/2008/02/mcgillion_returns_to_istargate_a.shtml

Jill_Ion
March 5th, 2008, 09:05 PM
I believe (since I can't quote exactly) that JM was misquoted in the particular GW section/article you are referring to.

And yes, I use bad grammar sometimes. :)

EDIT: So, if the quote is correct, there is a Carson and he's all fleshy. Not a Replicator. Not an Ascended being. Not from an Alternate Universe.




Yeah to Clones?

Jumper_One
March 5th, 2008, 09:12 PM
I believe (since I can't quote exactly) that JM was misquoted in the particular GW section/article you are referring to.

And yes, I use bad grammar sometimes. :)

EDIT: So, if the quote is correct, there is a Carson and he's all fleshy. Not a Replicator. Not an Ascended being. Not from an Alternate Universe.




Yeah to Clones?

Darren added this part to that article ;)

UPDATE: Our original report stated that Joseph Mallozzi had indicated that Beckett's return would not involve a clone. In fact, what he ruled out was a time-traveling Beckett or an alternate universe double. The story above has been corrected and given a proper citation. GateWorld regrets the error.
http://www.gateworld.net/news/2008/02/mcgillion_returns_to_istargate_a.shtml

KindlyKeller
March 5th, 2008, 09:47 PM
I think the first post on every page of every Beckett thread should have "Joe Never Said He Wouldn't Be a Clone" in enormous bold letters.

Shan Bruce Lee
March 5th, 2008, 11:20 PM
I think clones are awesome and everybody should have one just like the people in 'The Island' That would be great.

I think if you look at the original Carson and point specifically to what you liked about the character (humor, charm, the accent w/e it is) and then look at the clone and try to say those exact same qualities aren't there then you're lying to yourself.

Gaeth
March 6th, 2008, 12:00 AM
I think clones are awesome and everybody should have one just like the people in 'The Island' That would be great.


Yes, and I should have many, many clones. I will have an army and then I will rule the world!

I would have rather had the 'original' Carson back but at least this way it could make for some interesting conflict.

Nitegate
March 6th, 2008, 02:45 AM
he's not the same carson, cause the original carson risked his life to save another mans and he had no problem shooting 2 guys in the back.

and teyla is all[mod snip] on a mutant hybrid and doesn't care for the safety of her kid, that's why she refused to leave

jenks
March 6th, 2008, 03:38 AM
yeah he did, he said it in one of those featured news stories on gateworld? which i thought was weird that Carson was a clone, because he said that not how he will come back ?

No he never. He said it would be Carson in the flesh, which the Carson fans jumped on and decided that he must be the real Carson, wrongly.

Tupopoflungo
March 6th, 2008, 07:25 AM
Uh...what? CloneCarson killed those two guards that were with Teyla without hesitation, remorse, or concern. Are you saying that it was absolutely necessary that CloneCarson shoot those two men in the back

Yes, I do, He believed it was necessary in order to save Teyla. Carson could not have known at the time that Teyla would refuse to leave, or that during his interchange with Teyla, Michael would return. He simply could not have known.


but that it wasn't necessary for Carson to shoot Michael, the man who kept him prisoner, has taken Teyla prisoner, tortured and experimented on both of them, and is trying to take Teyla away again? That makes no sense. Also, I'm supposed to believe that Carson (the real Carson) would choose to let a clearly crazy mad scientist take one of his (pregnant!) close friends away because he needs Michael to live? Huuuuuuuuuh?

Michael is the way he is, because of Carson, is he not????? Am I the only one who watched any of the episodes leading to season 4 that featured the Michael storyline? As a doctor, seeing that something he did was wrong, and probably within his power to fix, would he not have wanted to fix that. He is a doctor, a healer, simple as that. Also, in regards to LETTING Michael take Teyla away...Did you not see him get STUNNED!!!! It's not as if he had a choice of whether to let them go after that...



This is the same person who was blown up by an exploding tumor because he refused to let a person die, and paid the price for his sense of duty, loyalty, and desire to do all he possibly could to save a life. Yet you are saying that here, where Carson's loyalty should be at its most relevant, he would rather save his own neck? No way.

Actually, according to your arguments Carson never experienced these events...



Michael is the one person in the entire freaking Universe Carson (real or clone) actually has a legitimate reason to forego his Hippocratic Oath over and you are saying that he couldn't do it because every life is precious? I'm sure Teyla will be perfectly understanding when CloneCarson tells her that he couldn't shoot the hybrid who went Dr. Frankenstein on her lover, people, and baby, because Michael was really charismatic and he couldn't stop himself from sucumbing to peer pressure.

I disagree, I think that Carson feels responsible for what happened to Michael, and therefore would desire to save him if he could. Would a doctor who messed up during surgery not desire to fix it? or misdiagnosed a patient, would they not desire to fix it? Hell, any mistake a human makes they desire to fix...

Jill_Ion
March 6th, 2008, 09:22 AM
he's not the same carson, cause the original carson risked his life to save another mans and he had no problem shooting 2 guys in the back.

and teyla is all D**K whipped on a mutant hybrid and doesn't care for the safety of her kid, that's why she refused to leave

He's not the same Carson because the original Carson wasn't imprisoned by Michael for two years.

"Dick whipped" is offensive and IMHO mischaracterizes Teyla and her feelings.

jenks
March 6th, 2008, 09:24 AM
ha ha ha

Nitegate
March 6th, 2008, 12:25 PM
that's the way the writer of that episode portrayed her IMO, she should have gotten out of there cause of her son, NOT stay over some guy.

but yeah it's just a show, it makes for a good season finale tomorrow, but it sure makes teyla look dumb.

Gaeth
March 6th, 2008, 01:17 PM
that's the way the writer of that episode portrayed her IMO, she should have gotten out of there cause of her son, NOT stay over some guy.

but yeah it's just a show, it makes for a good season finale tomorrow, but it sure makes teyla look dumb.

Maybe she was drugged? Michael was injecting her with stuff maybe it did something to her wits.

Jill_Ion
March 6th, 2008, 07:57 PM
that's the way the writer of that episode portrayed her IMO, she should have gotten out of there cause of her son, NOT stay over some guy.

but yeah it's just a show, it makes for a good season finale tomorrow, but it sure makes teyla look dumb.

I get what you're saying, but for her it isn't "some guy." Also, I just rewatched K II again, and she's been through everything she's been through, in shock cuz Carson just shot a couple of guys and appeared from the dead, and she's focused, whether we like it or not, on trying to rescue some she loves and has known her entire life, who also happens to be the father of her child. I can see that she'd at least hesitate.

Plus, there was only a very short time between when Carson shot those guards and Michael showed up. I think it's within the realm of possibility and not-dumb to say she had a lot to process and Michael came back too quickly for her to escape. I mean, if they had started running, Michael would've caught up to them a short ways down the passage.

YMMV.

KindlyKeller
March 6th, 2008, 10:13 PM
That's a good point about the short time frame and her being understandably overwhelmed. When you put it like that, I really don't think it's "idiotic" as has been asserted by some. I definitely understand where people are coming from when they say that, but under the circumstances, I think it's a reasonable reaction she had.

Nitegate
March 7th, 2008, 12:45 AM
I get what you're saying, but for her it isn't "some guy." Also, I just rewatched K II again, and she's been through everything she's been through, in shock cuz Carson just shot a couple of guys and appeared from the dead, and she's focused, whether we like it or not, on trying to rescue some she loves and has known her entire life, who also happens to be the father of her child. I can see that she'd at least hesitate.

Plus, there was only a very short time between when Carson shot those guards and Michael showed up. I think it's within the realm of possibility and not-dumb to say she had a lot to process and Michael came back too quickly for her to escape. I mean, if they had started running, Michael would've caught up to them a short ways down the passage.

YMMV.

they could have made it better by saying ok lets go and then michael show up, not acting the way she did.

her respect as a character after that scene went out the window for me.

Shan Bruce Lee
March 7th, 2008, 02:44 AM
they could have made it better by saying ok lets go and then michael show up, not acting the way she did.

her respect as a character after that scene went out the window for me.

So if you were in her shoes you'd just leave the one person you love more than anyone to be a brainwashed slave to a Wraith? Ouch.

Integrabyte
March 7th, 2008, 02:58 AM
So if you were in her shoes you'd just leave the one person you love more than anyone to be a brainwashed slave to a Wraith? Ouch.

There is a larger picture here. Teyla should have chosen to leave in order to save her baby's life. She was ill equipped to challenge Michael and she should have thought of that. She was selfish and she might have doomed both Canaan and her baby. She should have chosen the lesser evil. You don't fight a battle when you are not prepared, especially with someone who has plans for your unborn child. Had she left, things would have been different. She could have prepared herself better now because she knew what to expect. On top of that, she would have been protected by Shep and his team.

Nitegate
March 7th, 2008, 06:34 AM
There is a larger picture here. Teyla should have chosen to leave in order to save her baby's life. She was ill equipped to challenge Michael and she should have thought of that. She was selfish and she might have doomed both Canaan and her baby. She should have chosen the lesser evil. You don't fight a battle when you are not prepared, especially with someone who has plans for your unborn child. Had she left, things would have been different. She could have prepared herself better now because she knew what to expect. On top of that, she would have been protected by Shep and his team.

EXACTLY

Integrabyte
March 7th, 2008, 10:03 AM
EXACTLY

I doubt Canaan in his right mind would have been selfish enough to demand to be rescued. Any parent will put their kid's life first, except Teyla :P. In my opinion, had Canaan been there with Carson he would have encouraged Teyla to run away. The writers thought they would show how much Teyla loves this bloke. They showed nothing else than adolescent behaviour from a person who is supposed to be responsible. For crying out loud, you have a child and the big bad wolf wants it. Why would you put a happy meal tag on you? :P Not the first time when the writers screw up things with Teyla.

Shan Bruce Lee
March 7th, 2008, 11:20 PM
There is a larger picture here. Teyla should have chosen to leave in order to save her baby's life. She was ill equipped to challenge Michael and she should have thought of that. She was selfish and she might have doomed both Canaan and her baby. She should have chosen the lesser evil. You don't fight a battle when you are not prepared, especially with someone who has plans for your unborn child. Had she left, things would have been different. She could have prepared herself better now because she knew what to expect. On top of that, she would have been protected by Shep and his team.

I got 2 completely different lines of thinking about this.

1) She was already in danger though so she might as well try to save him.

2) Michael wanted the baby unharmed so he wouldn't have done anything to jepardize that.

They sound contradictory at first but if you consider that Mikey's people were firing P90s at Shep's team, if Teyla had tried to leave then she would have been put right in the middle of all that gun fire.

Call me stubborn but I'm sticking with that :)

sg1_david
March 8th, 2008, 03:14 AM
Please don't call him Mikey. Calling the bad guys weird "nice" names is just wrong. Annie & Palpy anyone?

Integrabyte
March 8th, 2008, 03:29 AM
I got 2 completely different lines of thinking about this.

1) She was already in danger though so she might as well try to save him.

2) Michael wanted the baby unharmed so he wouldn't have done anything to jepardize that.

They sound contradictory at first but if you consider that Mikey's people were firing P90s at Shep's team, if Teyla had tried to leave then she would have been put right in the middle of all that gun fire.

Call me stubborn but I'm sticking with that :)

I see where you are coming from. I agree she would have been within P90 range but in the area where Carson was, bullets seldom appeared. It seems you doubt Ronon's ability to kill people :P.

Tupopoflungo
March 8th, 2008, 11:50 AM
Please don't call him Mikey. Calling the bad guys weird "nice" names is just wrong. Annie & Palpy anyone?

Isn't the term Michael just an attempt to humanize him anyway? Afterall, he had no name till we gave him that one, and where i'm from it's perfectly okay to call anyone named Michael: Mike,Mikey...etc. I think it's a fan's own choice to do this, and you shouldn't have control over what other fans do. Perhaps he is a fan of michael, and roots for his character(I root for todd on occasion) and therefore, prefers Mikey as a term of endearment, a way of connecting to the character. who are you to say what characters can and cannot be called?