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MatroxMeteor
February 12th, 2008, 06:28 AM
The show's gone completely sideways... Lost its vision, lost its character... It's becoming another 'me too' Sci Fi show: put some aliens in + put it on another planet = got yourself a Sci Fi show. Now: add space ships that make big explosions and some 36-24-36 'doctors' and 'officers' = got yourself a GREAT Sci Fi show. Then: kill off half of major characters that actually add some substance and replace them with more 36-24-36 'doctors' and 'officers' = emotionally turbulent GREAT Sci Fi show. Finally: should it by some cosmic coincidence happen that you replace a major character that adds substance to the show with another one that adds substance to the show - kill it off and make it 'more' emotionally turbulent. P.S. - if you somehow managed to keep some good and developed characters, retard them into comedy reliefs.

You've got yourself a Great Sci Fi show!!!

Any similarity with SGA is purely coincidental...

BLAH...
Jure

J_schinderlin56
February 12th, 2008, 06:48 AM
I think that it has everything to do with the guy at the top. It all started with his statement "What the fans want has nothing to do with our decision making" or whatever it was that he said.... Basically it was "the customer is always wrong". His first mistake was getting rid of Carson. Then he got rid of Wier and was surprised that Tori was upset????? Then they set us up with this dramatic ending to "Be all my sins..." (Annoying dramatic name for an episode) and because they screwed Tori over there will never be a follow up.

In drama one of the greatest tools is the "Setup and the Payoff" SGA fans got "The Setup and the Letdown". Now were losing Amanda and getting Picardo. Don't get me wrong I like Picardo, but SGA is now in a downward spiral, and something needs to be done fast!

FIRE MALLOZI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Briangate78
February 12th, 2008, 06:51 AM
What's happening to SGA? It's becoming more dynamic, taking more risk, and has been given me the most anticipation since the SG-1 days. Atlantis has lost friends and watching them try to cope with the loss while trying to save the pegasus galaxy from multiple threats has left me on the edge of my seat. I still think the best is yet to come with the last 4 episodes. This season has had some of the best battles, a lot of character eps, and just some clever writing. I do hope next season can top this one.

Alipeeps
February 12th, 2008, 07:04 AM
I think that it has everything to do with the guy at the top. It all started with his statement "What the fans want has nothing to do with our decision making" or whatever it was that he said.... Basically it was "the customer is always wrong".

The fans don't have anything to do with TPTB's decision-making. They can't possibly do. The fans like different things about the show, want different things from it, like some characters, hate others etc etc etc etc etc. So which fans would you suggest TPTB listen to and take into account in their decision-making?

For every fan upset over Carson's death, there's another who was pleased to see him go and another who didn't care one way or the other. For every fan mourning the loss of Weir, there's another who is glad she is gone or who prefers Carter or who would like Caldwell in command, or whatever. TPTB try and make the best show they can - they want to show to succeed because they want to stay employed! Whether or not their vision for the show meets what you want from it is another matter entirely... but there's not really a lot they can do about that.

As the saying goes, you can please some of the people all of the time, or all of the people some of the time; you can never please all of the people all of the time.

jenks
February 12th, 2008, 07:10 AM
The show's gone completely sideways... Lost its vision, lost its character... It's becoming another 'me too' Sci Fi show: put some aliens in + put it on another planet = got yourself a Sci Fi show. Now: add space ships that make big explosions and some 36-24-36 'doctors' and 'officers' = got yourself a GREAT Sci Fi show. Then: kill off half of major characters that actually add some substance and replace them with more 36-24-36 'doctors' and 'officers' = emotionally turbulent GREAT Sci Fi show. Finally: should it by some cosmic coincidence happen that you replace a major character that adds substance to the show with another one that adds substance to the show - kill it off and make it 'more' emotionally turbulent. P.S. - if you somehow managed to keep some good and developed characters, retard them into comedy reliefs.

You've got yourself a Great Sci Fi show!!!

Any similarity with SGA is purely coincidental...

BLAH...
Jure

Since you've answered your own question, I can only you made this thread to get attention. The flaw in your argument is that Atlantis never had a vision, it never really had a character, until season 4 it was just a watered down version of SG-1. It's only now that Atlantis has developed a character of it's own, and the series actually feels like it has some direction to it.

stclare
February 12th, 2008, 08:28 AM
What characters that?

I havent seen anything this season thats made it any better than last season.

I havent been on the edge of my seat once. ive learnt nothing I didnt know before. unless you count the fact that I now know Sg1 charcters better.

I dont think fans will ever agree on any season. I loved the first three and have only liked 4 eps so far this season. i bet theres loads of fans that felt the reverse.

I dont think that makes you right and me wrong. in this kind of thing there is no right and wrong, just your own perspective on whats good and bad.

Naonak
February 12th, 2008, 08:42 AM
I think that it has everything to do with the guy at the top. It all started with his statement "What the fans want has nothing to do with our decision making" or whatever it was that he said.... Basically it was "the customer is always wrong". His first mistake was getting rid of Carson. Then he got rid of Wier and was surprised that Tori was upset????? Then they set us up with this dramatic ending to "Be all my sins..." (Annoying dramatic name for an episode) and because they screwed Tori over there will never be a follow up.

In drama one of the greatest tools is the "Setup and the Payoff" SGA fans got "The Setup and the Letdown". Now were losing Amanda and getting Picardo. Don't get me wrong I like Picardo, but SGA is now in a downward spiral, and something needs to be done fast!

FIRE MALLOZI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wow, that's a horribly misled view of everything.

For one thing, Brad Wright and Robert Cooper often said that they made the shows as they would like to watch, not basing it on fan opinions, even during the "golden days". For the most part this is what all shows should do, because as Alipeeps said, which fans should they listen to?

It wasn't Joe Mallozzi's decision to explode Carson, because he and Paul Mullie weren't in charge last year, and behind the scenes he seems to have been one of the main people trying to get him back.

AFAIK, we don't know all the reasons for them getting rid of Weir, or who's "fault" it ultimately is. We will be getting a follow-up to the end of BAMSR, just without Weir being there.

Briangate78
February 12th, 2008, 08:45 AM
Wow, that's a horribly misled view of everything.

For one thing, Brad Wright and Robert Cooper often said that they made the shows as they would like to watch, not basing it on fan opinions, even during the "golden days". For the most part this is what all shows should do, because as Alipeeps said, which fans should they listen to?

It wasn't Joe Mallozzi's decision to explode Carson, because he and Paul Mullie weren't in charge last year, and behind the scenes he seems to have been one of the main people trying to get him back.

AFAIK, we don't know all the reasons for them getting rid of Weir, or who's "fault" it ultimately is. We will be getting a follow-up to the end of BAMSR, just without Weir being there.

It's pretty interesting, if you want Weir back, hope Brad Wright is the show runner, but then Carson will be dead again, lol. The current show runners have made it known they wanted to continue the Weir story arc at the end of "BAMSR". Whether it was one episode or like a half a dozen eps.

FoolishPleasure
February 12th, 2008, 08:48 AM
Here is a comment from the bottom of a review of TRIO:

There was a time, in my opinion, when 'Atlantis' out-classed 'SG-1'. Recently, however, it seems that the writers are just throwing out episodes so they can say that they are still on the air. This episode was just boring, much like the two or three before it. Soon to be closing out it's 4th season, I still mildly enjoy the show, but I'll be surprised if it sticks around beyond a 5th season.

Another quote from a reviewer:

They need Weir back, but she isn't coming, and they need Sam gone, which is happening. Season five is going to be rough; they need to do some serious locking up.

My personal fav quote from a review:

Next week… I am predicting it will be a half-perfect episode, as Teal'c comes to Atlantis. We have Sam and Teal'c, all we need is Jack and Daniel (Ha! Jack Daniels), change the name of Stargate: Atlantis to Stargate: SG-1 and the show will be perfect again!

Let's see, TPTB dumped Beckett, Weir, and are making Zelenka a perv. Keller is a "player" now (two separate TRIO reviews have mentioned this), We are getting a whiner leader in Woolsey, along with a new hot young chick (Capt. Vega-whatever).

What is left to like on this show? It is completely different from the SGA I saw in season 1.

Naonak
February 12th, 2008, 08:53 AM
Let's see, TPTB ... are making Zelenka a perv.
They're doing what now? :S

Briangate78
February 12th, 2008, 08:54 AM
Well that is your opinion. I do miss Weir, but the show must go on. It is sorta what happened in Season 9 of SG-1! Yes, I was upset that O'neill was gone, but this is typical for any show to change cast. I like to look at the overall show and as a whole, not just one character. Did you know SG-1 changed their main cast every season for the last 5 years. Some were creative decisions and some were by actor's choice, just like SGA!

colin15watt
February 12th, 2008, 09:02 AM
The replicator story was a good one, but only because of the characters, at the beginning of every show it's the plot that attracts viewers, however as the show progresses its the characters that keep them. Now they've made 3 mistakes of characters: Beckett, Weir and Carter and i nmy opinion the choice of Woolsey was a bad one too. Woolsey was often outlined as an unlikeable character in episodes like Misbegotten/No-Mans Land, The Return and The Seer. I thought they're choice of Carter was poor as she has been in the stargate program for 11 years, however i did think a familiar face was what the show needed, i had hoped for either General Landry or Mitchell, but nop, we get Woolsey....fun!
At this rate, season 5 will decide whiether or not i continue to watch SGA....

:sheppard::weir::teyla::ronan::beckett::mckay:
the way the cast should be :)
www.bebo.com/4stargate-atlantis4

FoolishPleasure
February 12th, 2008, 09:04 AM
Well that is your opinion. I do miss Weir, but the show must go on. It is sorta what happened in Season 9 of SG-1! Yes, I was upset that O'neill was gone, but this is typical for any show to change cast. I like to look at the overall show and as a whole, not just one character. Did you know SG-1 changed their main cast every season for the last 5 years. Some were creative decisions and some were by actor's choice, just like SGA!

They brought Daniel back from the Dead/dumping Jonas after one year of not working out), and Frasier died. O'Neil wasn't a reg, but he was still recurring. Plus, the last several years of SG1 are not considered to be good - you know, when they did all those sweeping changes? It killed the show.

SGA has been dumping characters from season 1 (Ford, Bates, and Grodin). It doesn't allow for any continuity or for the audience to identify with characters when they are constantly being killed off.

Briangate78
February 12th, 2008, 09:11 AM
They brought Daniel back from the Dead/dumping Jonas after one year of not working out), and Frasier died. O'Neil wasn't a reg, but he was still recurring. Plus, the last several years of SG1 are not considered to be good - you know, when they did all those sweeping changes? It killed the show.

SGA has been dumping characters from season 1 (Ford, Bates, and Grodin). It doesn't allow for any continuity or for the audience to identify with characters when they are constantly being killed off.

Farscape had so many changes as well, and they would of gone more seasons if the production costs did not cause an issue. As per SG-1 they had 3 leader changes within 3 seasons. I thought Season 8 was a great season. Yeah I missed Hammod of Texas and O'neill going on missions in almost every episode, but it still was a great season for me. Season 9 was so so, my least favorite, but then Season 10 I loved.

Maybe Season 5 of SGA will be even better than S4 for certain folks, who knows.

Konrad9
February 12th, 2008, 10:35 AM
The show's gone completely sideways... Lost its vision, lost its character... It's becoming another 'me too' Sci Fi show: put some aliens in + put it on another planet = got yourself a Sci Fi show. Now: add space ships that make big explosions and some 36-24-36 'doctors' and 'officers' = got yourself a GREAT Sci Fi show. Then: kill off half of major characters that actually add some substance and replace them with more 36-24-36 'doctors' and 'officers' = emotionally turbulent GREAT Sci Fi show. Finally: should it by some cosmic coincidence happen that you replace a major character that adds substance to the show with another one that adds substance to the show - kill it off and make it 'more' emotionally turbulent. P.S. - if you somehow managed to keep some good and developed characters, retard them into comedy reliefs.

You've got yourself a Great Sci Fi show!!!

Any similarity with SGA is purely coincidental...

BLAH...
Jure
OH MY GOD THOSE CHARACTERS HAVE BOOBS. HOW ARE WE EXPECTED TO TAKE THEM SERIOUSLY WHEN THEY HAVE BOOBS. AND NICE BUTTS. OH MY GOD. OH MY GOD.
*slap*
Sorry, had a Cloverfield moment at the end there.

SG1 killed off Teryl's character for absolutely no reason, offered no closure, and brought her back for one episode.
We're getting Carson back.

After 7 years of Don Davis we got two (three-ish) new leaders in as many years. We got RDA for one year (former SG1 team member) and then Landry, who we had never seen before.
SGA lost Weir and then had Carter for a year, and then Woolsey, a known character who was a lot of room to grow and learn.

Heaven
February 12th, 2008, 10:51 AM
What's happening to SGA?

it's becoming Startrek Atlantis

Chrisisall
February 12th, 2008, 11:03 AM
What's happening to SGA?

it's becoming Startrek AtlantisIs that a bad thing (he asks, not done with season one yet)?


Dumb newbie Chrisisall

Heaven
February 12th, 2008, 11:16 AM
Is that a bad thing (he asks, not done with season one yet)?

depends on who you ask.
enjoy season 1, it's the best of the four imo.

bluealien
February 12th, 2008, 11:27 AM
Here is a comment from the bottom of a review of TRIO:

There was a time, in my opinion, when 'Atlantis' out-classed 'SG-1'. Recently, however, it seems that the writers are just throwing out episodes so they can say that they are still on the air. This episode was just boring, much like the two or three before it. Soon to be closing out it's 4th season, I still mildly enjoy the show, but I'll be surprised if it sticks around beyond a 5th season.

Another quote from a reviewer:

They need Weir back, but she isn't coming, and they need Sam gone, which is happening. Season five is going to be rough; they need to do some serious locking up.

My personal fav quote from a review:

Next week… I am predicting it will be a half-perfect episode, as Teal'c comes to Atlantis. We have Sam and Teal'c, all we need is Jack and Daniel (Ha! Jack Daniels), change the name of Stargate: Atlantis to Stargate: SG-1 and the show will be perfect again!

Let's see, TPTB dumped Beckett, Weir, and are making Zelenka a perv. Keller is a "player" now (two separate TRIO reviews have mentioned this), We are getting a whiner leader in Woolsey, along with a new hot young chick (Capt. Vega-whatever).

What is left to like on this show? It is completely different from the SGA I saw in season 1.


Picking a few random negative reviews about the show proves nothing because there are just as many and most likely more positive reviews out there as well. As Alipeeps said you cannot please everyone and there will always be something someone doesn't like. For me the show is great and Weir and Beckett were never my reason for watching. Keller is by no means a player, Woolsey I'll comment on once I've seen him in command and Zelenka is anything but a perv.

I don't want the show to stay the same and each season has gotten better with season 4 being the best so far IMO.

Chopingrl84
February 12th, 2008, 11:33 AM
Just wanted to weigh in on this, as I'm really glad to see I'm not the only one that's been less than thrilled with recent episodes. I (along with my family members that also follow the show) have been extremely disappointed with the season this year. For example, I was excited at the beginning of the season that Carter was going to be on the show, as she was one of my favorites on SG-1. However, to me, the character seems completely different on SGA, like all the spunk and intelligence is gone.

Anyone remember that episode of SG-1 ("200") with all of the parodies in it? There was one that was a "what if everyone was replaced with a younger, emo-ish version" -- that's kind of how Atlantis seems to me these days, and it's very disappointing. I find myself getting extremely bored, and a little embarassed by the writing sometimes. Last week's episode, with it's "Clooney or Pitt?" discussion, etc, seemed like a low point to me.


Not trying to hate on the show (I guess it probably seems that way), but it used to be my absolute favorite thing to watch (I was always a little too excited to get home on Friday nights and watch my tape of it), and I'm just really disappointed with the direction it's taken lately.

Lost City Antares
February 12th, 2008, 11:51 AM
<snip> Characters need to be changed every once in awhile to keep a show fresh, to keep the story something different then characters A,B,C,D went through the gate, killed some wraith, risked a little death, and then went home.

What exactly are your standards for a character dieing "properly"? As far as I can tell every character that anyone possibly cared about can't be killed, despite the fact that they undergo "certain" death on a constant basis (otherwise the show is uninteresting).

As for Carter, I think the primary problem is that she isn't really involved in the show. Yeah, she's in 1 or 2 episodes were Atlantis is in a deathly situation, but out of the 20 episodes of the season she really isn't shooting and killing Wraith and coming up with solutions to what ever problem is happening to day. She isn't the same character, she has a different role to play in the show, and you can't expect her to be the same person she was four years ago.

As for myself, largely I've been happy with this season, it's been so much more interesting then last season, and I think that it's exactly what they needed. Trio wasn't my favorite (and I think they might be overdoing the, "lets stick two or three characters in a horrible situation and see what happens" type of episode), but on a whole they're doing better, especially if the season ender episodes turn out as good as they look to be.

s09119
February 12th, 2008, 12:16 PM
When Stargate: Atlantis first came on the air, it was a different show, yes. The characters were new and exciting, the plot was (mostly) fresh, and we had an enemy that seemed far more sinister than any since the Replicator days. We had a brand new setting in an entirely new galaxy; they could do anything! The possibilities were endless.

And this continued into Season 2, but something began to change. Plotlines began to mirror those if SG-1, and at first, it seemed a great nod to the mother show. After a dozen or so re-hashes, however, many fans began to see that Atlantis wasn't honoring SG-1, but instead simply trying to use all its plotlines instead of making new ones. This trend was only solidified with the introduction of enemies henceforth referred to only as "Replicators" and the gradual forgetting of original Atlantis plots, worlds, and characters.

Finally, Season 4 began. A much-loved character in Carson Beckett had recently been lost, and Elizabeth Weir was next to go. Nearly all of the episodes were rip-offs of SG-1, and the character building seemed to drop into the netherverse. While the quality of writing and effects seem to have increased somewhat, the originality and care that once made Atlantis a beacon of progress for science-fiction seems to have been lost. And only time will tell if the ever-more-radical changes being made to the show will stem that downward slide...

Heaven
February 12th, 2008, 01:07 PM
When Stargate: Atlantis first came on the air, it was a different show, yes. The characters were new and exciting, the plot was (mostly) fresh, and we had an enemy that seemed far more sinister than any since the Replicator days. We had a brand new setting in an entirely new galaxy; they could do anything! The possibilities were endless.

And this continued into Season 2, but something began to change. Plotlines began to mirror those if SG-1, and at first, it seemed a great nod to the mother show. After a dozen or so re-hashes, however, many fans began to see that Atlantis wasn't honoring SG-1, but instead simply trying to use all its plotlines instead of making new ones. This trend was only solidified with the introduction of enemies henceforth referred to only as "Replicators" and the gradual forgetting of original Atlantis plots, worlds, and characters.

couldn't have put it better myself.

Mitchell82
February 12th, 2008, 01:13 PM
I think that it has everything to do with the guy at the top. It all started with his statement "What the fans want has nothing to do with our decision making" or whatever it was that he said.... Basically it was "the customer is always wrong". His first mistake was getting rid of Carson. Then he got rid of Wier and was surprised that Tori was upset????? Then they set us up with this dramatic ending to "Be all my sins..." (Annoying dramatic name for an episode) and because they screwed Tori over there will never be a follow up.
Their decisions to remove Weir and Carson had nothing to do with what the fans wanted. And they didn't screw up with Torri. They offered her a part to come back and she turned them down without even reading the script.


In drama one of the greatest tools is the "Setup and the Payoff" SGA fans got "The Setup and the Letdown". Now were losing Amanda and getting Picardo. Don't get me wrong I like Picardo, but SGA is now in a downward spiral, and something needs to be done fast!

FIRE MALLOZI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I disagree. It is not their fault Amanda is leaving. She made a tough choice. Personally JM is doing a good job.

Klenotka
February 12th, 2008, 01:26 PM
They offered her a part to come back and she turned them down without even reading the script.

How generous of them :rolleyes:
I wouldn´t return if I were Torri. It is like any other job-if they would kick me out, I would never return. And they offered her one episode. If Torri works in LA now, the flight to Vancouver bc of one episode, leave everthing behind, just to clean their mess...no, I agree with Torri´s decision. Nobody knows what really happened but I understand that Torri didn´t want to go back to place where she certainly lived some tough moments.

Mitchell82
February 12th, 2008, 01:28 PM
How generous of them :rolleyes:
I wouldn´t return if I were Torri. It is like any other job-if they would kick me out, I would never return. And they offered her one episode. If Torri works in LA now, the flight to Vancouver bc of one episode, leave everthing behind, just to clean their mess...no, I agree with Torri´s decision. Nobody knows what really happened but I understand that Torri didn´t want to go back to place where she certainly lived some tough moments.

I see your point but if things were that bad she wouldn't have come back for season 4 at all.

stclare
February 12th, 2008, 03:48 PM
I see your point but if things were that bad she wouldn't have come back for season 4 at all.

Maybe she was hopefull that they would come back with more than 1 ep for season 5. She did mention that although she had 4 eps this season it really only counted as two due to screen time? or something along those lines.

I guess if your offered 1 ep against maybe a play or film. youd take the bigger option. she did mention a lot about doing stage work ect while at peg 3 and she seemed really happy. so im happy if shes happy.

I know ive said this a hundred times before but I wouldnt want to see her or any other charcter shoe horned in just to say there, there. im hoping Carsons eps are done really, really well. still totaly clueless how there gonna pull that off without it turning into a farce. roll on Kindred ;)

ses110
February 12th, 2008, 03:52 PM
Maybe Torri was contracted for Season 4? IMO TPTB treated her horribly.IMO good for Torri for sticking up for herself and moving on to better things. TPTB want to get rid of certain characters and the Actors are just suppose to come back whenever TPTB want. I applaud Torri.

J_schinderlin56
February 12th, 2008, 04:51 PM
Amanda's leaving the show wouldn't be an issue at all if Torri hadn't been kicked off. And I would say that signing someone to a 6 year contract then, only going through half of it was reason enough for her to be upset, especially if she moved there to do the show.

I also don't see how you can have a follow up with the whole "Repli-Weir" thing without Weir. Yeah I know they'll come up with some back story, change her into someone/somethig else. But it won't work for me, they teased Wier now we're not going to get that. I respect that you guys like JM. I don't.... Sorry. But I still love the show, I just don't want it to become BSG.
So try as you may but I'll never be a Mallozzi Hugger.

Alipeeps
February 12th, 2008, 05:15 PM
Finally, Season 4 began. A much-loved character in Carson Beckett had recently been lost, and Elizabeth Weir was next to go. Nearly all of the episodes were rip-offs of SG-1, and the character building seemed to drop into the netherverse. While the quality of writing and effects seem to have increased somewhat, the originality and care that once made Atlantis a beacon of progress for science-fiction seems to have been lost. And only time will tell if the ever-more-radical changes being made to the show will stem that downward slide...

Obviously that's your opinion and you're entitled to it but I'd be interested to understand your reasoning behind that statement, that "nearly all" the episodes in Season 4 are rip-offs of SG1. I personally am not seeing that so maybe you could explain which SG1 episodes you think nearly all the Season 4 SGA episodes are ripping off and in what way? What SG1 episode, for example, does Reunion rip off? Or Missing? Or Spoils of War? Or Trio?


Amanda's leaving the show wouldn't be an issue at all if Torri hadn't been kicked off. And I would say that signing someone to a 6 year contract then, only going through half of it was reason enough for her to be upset, especially if she moved there to do the show.


As has been explained several times in several threads, contracts in the acting industry simply don't work the same way as elsewhere - a 6 year contract for an actor does not mean a guarantee of 6 years of full-time work. It means the studio/production company are effectively paying the actor to "reserve" first dibs on their availability. It means full-time work for as long as a) the show gets renewed or b) the character remains part of the show. It's standard procedure, even when filming a pilot, before the show has even been picked up, to sign actors up for anywhere from 4 to 7 seasons right from the start - so that if the show is a success and does run for those years, the producers know they have the cast members available for as long as they need/want them. Characters are written out of shows ALL the time for all sorts of reasons and an experienced actor/actress knows how the system works. Sure, it's always going to be upsetting to be written out or have the role reduced, but making it sound like the studio/production company/TPTB pulled some kind of unusual, underhand manouevre and sacked someone half way through a guaranteed contract simply isn't accurate.

And folks, at the risk of playing mom, this thread isn't about how TPTB treated Torri or why she turned down the role in Season 5 etc etc... I'd hate to see this turn into another argument on that subject.

J_schinderlin56
February 12th, 2008, 06:03 PM
I have a right to get irritated about stuff that annoys me. To me seeing certain things happen shapes my opinion about where I think the show is going. I think some of the things that have happend (and I won't repeat them) have had a negitive effect on where I see the show going (which was the question by the way) Then I think that I have the right to express my Opinion about it. If you don't fell that way good for you. In fact I agree with you guys on a lot of those points. But comming in here and "Mom"ing a disscussion or saying "You people need to grow up" Give me a break. We're talking about people pretending to fight aliens on the lost city of Atlantis. I've said all I'm going to say about this.

matthewscott614
February 12th, 2008, 08:26 PM
The show's gone completely sideways... Lost its vision, lost its character... It's becoming another 'me too' Sci Fi show: put some aliens in + put it on another planet = got yourself a Sci Fi show. Now: add space ships that make big explosions and some 36-24-36 'doctors' and 'officers' = got yourself a GREAT Sci Fi show. Then: kill off half of major characters that actually add some substance and replace them with more 36-24-36 'doctors' and 'officers' = emotionally turbulent GREAT Sci Fi show. Finally: should it by some cosmic coincidence happen that you replace a major character that adds substance to the show with another one that adds substance to the show - kill it off and make it 'more' emotionally turbulent. P.S. - if you somehow managed to keep some good and developed characters, retard them into comedy reliefs.

You've got yourself a Great Sci Fi show!!!

Any similarity with SGA is purely coincidental...

BLAH...
Jure

Wright & Cooper are busy making kick ass movies,
meanwhile SGA is going down the **** hole.

Detox
February 13th, 2008, 12:26 AM
Wright & Cooper are busy making kick ass movies,
meanwhile SGA is going down the **** hole.

The evidence seems to be contradicting that. The greater majority still enjoys Atlantis and all the episodes it's been turning out, and from what I can tell, with their People's Choice win and all, is that they're getting a even bigger audience base and are extending into more mainstream viewers.

Alipeeps
February 13th, 2008, 12:55 AM
I have a right to get irritated about stuff that annoys me. To me seeing certain things happen shapes my opinion about where I think the show is going. I think some of the things that have happend (and I won't repeat them) have had a negitive effect on where I see the show going (which was the question by the way) Then I think that I have the right to express my Opinion about it. If you don't fell that way good for you. In fact I agree with you guys on a lot of those points. But comming in here and "Mom"ing a disscussion or saying "You people need to grow up" Give me a break. We're talking about people pretending to fight aliens on the lost city of Atlantis. I've said all I'm going to say about this.

You're more than entitled to your opinion and to express it and I never said anything to the contrary... I also never said anything about anyone needing to grow up and I would report any posts saying anything like that. My "mom-ing" was purely on the basis that the discussion was veering off-topic and into territory that the mods have asked people to steer clear of - i.e. speculation on Torri's motivations/feelings etc. We can't possibly know exactly what went on behind the scenes and we have no right to know.

You're entitled to feel that your perception of how Torri was treated has affected your enjoyment of the show but equally, other people are entitled to express their opinions and to respond to and clarify points you have made - e.g. about the contract situation. :)

Linzi
February 13th, 2008, 01:14 AM
Obviously that's your opinion and you're entitled to it but I'd be interested to understand your reasoning behind that statement, that "nearly all" the episodes in Season 4 are rip-offs of SG1. I personally am not seeing that so maybe you could explain which SG1 episodes you think nearly all the Season 4 SGA episodes are ripping off and in what way? What SG1 episode, for example, does Reunion rip off? Or Missing? Or Spoils of War? Or Trio?



As has been explained several times in several threads, contracts in the acting industry simply don't work the same way as elsewhere - a 6 year contract for an actor does not mean a guarantee of 6 years of full-time work. It means the studio/production company are effectively paying the actor to "reserve" first dibs on their availability. It means full-time work for as long as a) the show gets renewed or b) the character remains part of the show. It's standard procedure, even when filming a pilot, before the show has even been picked up, to sign actors up for anywhere from 4 to 7 seasons right from the start - so that if the show is a success and does run for those years, the producers know they have the cast members available for as long as they need/want them. Characters are written out of shows ALL the time for all sorts of reasons and an experienced actor/actress knows how the system works. Sure, it's always going to be upsetting to be written out or have the role reduced, but making it sound like the studio/production company/TPTB pulled some kind of unusual, underhand manouevre and sacked someone half way through a guaranteed contract simply isn't accurate.

And folks, at the risk of playing mom, this thread isn't about how TPTB treated Torri or why she turned down the role in Season 5 etc etc... I'd hate to see this turn into another argument on that subject.
Agreed.

Any contract has a get-out clause for each side anyway. My husband works on contracts, has done for 20 years. If the company he's working for didn't want his services anymore then they're free to break the contract at any time. If, however, his contract has to be renegotiated periodically, then if he's not picked up, that's the way it goes. It's not personal or being treated badly at all.

As for the situation with Amanda. Well she didn't have any contract in place after season 4, so she was free to do what she wants.

I think what's happening to SGA is that it's evolving. Obviously some don't like what it's evolving in to. Equally there are those who prefer the changes.

Me? I go with the flow. I personally have been pleased with the majority of changes in SGA. :)

Ice Wolf
February 13th, 2008, 01:46 AM
Their decisions to remove Weir and Carson had nothing to do with what the fans wanted. And they didn't screw up with Torri. They offered her a part to come back and she turned them down without even reading the script.


They offered her a part to come back, however her reasons for turning it down aren't know. What we know is that they only talked to her about 2 weeks ago about it. However aparently they had been working of the story since S4 wrapped. By the time they offered her the part she may have had other work lined up and couldn't fit it into her schedule. Had they wanted to assure that she would be back they should have contacted her earlier like all the other actors they were able to confirm in the press release. It looks like Mallozzi and co left it too late and they only have themselves to blame.

I think SGA has gone downhill and is not the show I loved any more. Its not the same show any more the feel of it is all different, sure it may still have the 4 members of SGA-1 still their, but the soul of the series seems to be gone, the spark isn't there for me any more. Weir being gone is one of the major reasons for me but its not the only one. Weir was more than just the leader, her interactions with the other characters made up a lot of the feel of the show. I think i could have still enjoyed the show with Weir being gone but for the way it was handled in the show, it didn't have the real impact that it deserved. When Daniel died in SG-1 the grief for the characters left carried through for more than just the episode he died. That didn't really seem to happen with Weirs death the writers handled it badly.

MatroxMeteor
February 13th, 2008, 04:15 AM
I think SGA has gone downhill and is not the show I loved any more. Its not the same show any more the feel of it is all different, sure it may still have the 4 members of SGA-1 still their, but the soul of the series seems to be gone, the spark isn't there for me any more. Weir being gone is one of the major reasons for me but its not the only one.

I agree with you. SGA is going the same path Star Trek Enterprise did. They both had a very interesting premise with the possibility of very interesting stories that would make them unique. SGA was set in a different galaxy, with the team isolated from Earth, facing a new enemy and just beginning to uncover a wealth of Ancient heritage. They could've left Atlantis isolated for several more seasons, explore the galaxy, explore the races (the Genii seem such a wasted opportunity), develop characters. Instead, they went for instant action, new space ships, big guns and explosions. Sure, it makes for ratings, but in the long run it's not the VFX and guns and explosions that count. It's not what made SG-1 so big. Enterprise was exactly the same. They had an established universe, they had so much potential to explore first contacts with the Romulans, Vulcan-human relations, Andorians, early warp technology development and tests...? What did they do - they conjured up some stupid temporal cold war, a plot contraption that permitted them to think up new aliens every week. With new ships and big guns and explosions. They even invented the Talib... sorry, Suliban. These were never seen in any future Treks, but hey, that's OK - it was a temporal cold war, never really took place, erased in time, ... Oh yeah, Enterprise was cancelled after Season 4.


Weir was more than just the leader, her interactions with the other characters made up a lot of the feel of the show. I think i could have still enjoyed the show with Weir being gone but for the way it was handled in the show, it didn't have the real impact that it deserved. When Daniel died in SG-1 the grief for the characters left carried through for more than just the episode he died. That didn't really seem to happen with Weirs death the writers handled it badly.

Yeah, the impact of Weir's (and Carson's) death was just too shallow. They worked and lived together for three years, they endured hardships and mourned deaths of their friends, they established trust between themselves and relied on each other to make it through alive. But here after their deaths it seems like everyone recovered in a couple of days and forgot about them completely. I think many fans just cannot identify themselves with such characters. I cannot identify myself with such a character... In the end I remember SG-1 by the *team*, not by how they defeated big bad new aliens every second week with increasingly big guns and big explosions. Oh wait, they didn't do that!

Erised
February 13th, 2008, 04:25 AM
MatroxMeteor, hmmm I don't know. Judging from the ratings, big guns and explosions aren't helping at all :D.

Skydiver
February 13th, 2008, 05:03 AM
Folks

We have NO IDEA AT ALL what happened behind closed doors at Bridge between Torri and the producers. And it's irresponsible to be putting forth one's personal opinions and interpretations as fact.

Heaven
February 13th, 2008, 06:23 AM
I agree with you. SGA is going the same path Star Trek Enterprise did. They both had a very interesting premise with the possibility of very interesting stories that would make them unique. SGA was set in a different galaxy, with the team isolated from Earth, facing a new enemy and just beginning to uncover a wealth of Ancient heritage.

yep. and here is what happened:
the different galaxy turned out to be just around the corner with 304s going back and forth every two weeks and not to mention the intergalactic gate bridge.
the expedition (if you can even call it that anymore) that was once isolated is now answering to the IOA.
and as for the Ancient heritage, Atlantis became nothing more than the SGC of the Pegasus galaxy, and the Ancients became a boring incompetent race of humans whose technology fails to surpass ours with the exception of the ZPM.

The original premise is pretty much gone now, and it's not coming back.
it's become a very different show.


They could've left Atlantis isolated for several more seasons, explore the galaxy, explore the races (the Genii seem such a wasted opportunity), develop characters. Instead, they went for instant action, new space ships, big guns and explosions. Sure, it makes for ratings, but in the long run it's not the VFX and guns and explosions that count. It's not what made SG-1 so big.
I agree.

Briangate78
February 13th, 2008, 07:46 AM
The evidence seems to be contradicting that. The greater majority still enjoys Atlantis and all the episodes it's been turning out, and from what I can tell, with their People's Choice win and all, is that they're getting a even bigger audience base and are extending into more mainstream viewers.

Ratings are slightly higher from last season's 2nd half, and this season's 2nd half has more viewers than last season's 2nd half. Did you know that "Be All my sins Remember'd" had the most viewers since Season 2!

EdenSG
February 13th, 2008, 09:02 AM
What’s happening to SGA?

It is going through cast changes, it is evolving, just as SG-1 did, Star Trek, Farscape and probably about 80% of the other shows out there do these days.

Some of the changes are by design of TPTB others are necessitated by decisions of the actors to leave or not return.

Personally I feel…
TPTB have a right to make changes they feel are in the best interest of the show – it is their show. Not only do they have to take a broad base of viewers into account, but also MGM, network people and advertisers.
Actors/Actresses have a right to leave a show. It is their life, their career, their decision.
Fans have the right to like or dislike the changes – it is their right to have an opinion.

I will never understand all the reasons for or the driving forces behind why actors make their decisions, or why TPTB make certain changes and therefore I will not sit in judgment of or blame the TPTB or the actors. Because I don't - and never will - have all the facts behind any on these decision I will not second guess them. I will never let an actor’s choice or a TPTB’s decision make me upset or angry because it is just a TV show and frankly they don’t have that power over me – and I won’t give it to them.

If TPTB make a creative decision – any creative decision whether it is a “big” one like a cast change or a “small” one like having a character ask another out for a drink it will be greeted by those who love it or hate it. You ask 10 different people to give their assessment of SGA this season and you will get 10 different answers. For this reason TPTB cannot let fan desires dictate the direction of the show. What fans want is way too polarized. As has been said before, which fans do they listen to? The one’s who love Weir or the ones that hate her? The ones that love (relation)ships or the ones that don’t? The ones that prefer stories on spaceships or the ones that prefer gate episodes? The list of differences among fans is endless. And no one fan group is more right or more justified in their opinion than another group. There is no righteousness of a cause here – just opinions based on one’s personal preferences/beliefs –nothing more, nothing less.

What is the end result of the season 4 changes so far? Some fans are happy and some fans are angry – nothing new. Ratings have been steady throughout the season and it has been picked up for another season. Personally, there are things about season 4 that I have really liked and other things I haven’t. For the most part I have very much enjoyed it and except for a few episodes I think it has been a strong season so far.

What will be the result of the changes is season 5? I have no idea, but I intend to tune into to find out. I try to go with the flow and see how things will work out. If I have a specific direction I want the show to go in and that doesn’t come to fruition I am not going to blame the actor or TPTB. How can I blame them for not seeing my vision? What makes my vision right? I can only see things from my own narrow perspective as a fan – I have no idea what the pressures, circumstances or expectations are behind the scenes. My expectations are for an entertaining show, interesting character development and some intriguing story lines – the specifics of how I leave up to TPTB. Cast changes can be good or bad, but I usually always find them interesting – and for the most part as long as the core premise of the show is intact I can deal with changes. The greatest power I have as a viewer, or a fan or what ever you want to call me is my right to decide whether I like it or not. And as long as I continue to enjoy it, I will watch it.

MatroxMeteor
February 13th, 2008, 11:17 AM
Atlantis has lost friends and watching them try to cope with the loss

Where exactly did you see them trying to cope? Better yet, in which episodes were these friends mentioned at all? It seems to me that everything is going as if they never existed.


I still think the best is yet to come with the last 4 episodes. This season has had some of the best battles, a lot of character eps, and just some clever writing. I do hope next season can top this one.

Battles are OK, true (the wussification of the Aurora class cruiser is NOT!). But clever writing? Come on... Travelers & Larrin, Quarantine, that little Princess vs. the big bad Genii and the latest 'stuck in a big hole with no way out'? Hardly something to keep you on the edge of your seat...

Briangate78
February 13th, 2008, 11:26 AM
Where exactly did you see them trying to cope? Better yet, in which episodes were these friends mentioned at all? It seems to me that everything is going as if they never existed.



Battles are OK, true (the wussification of the Aurora class cruiser is NOT!). But clever writing? Come on... Travelers & Larrin, Quarantine, that little Princess vs. the big bad Genii and the latest 'stuck in a big hole with no way out'? Hardly something to keep you on the edge of your seat...

Coping with mentioning friends.

After Lifeline, Weir's name came up several times, and they made it known to the viewers that the characters still thought she was alive and wanted to rescue her, and had guilty thoughts for leaving her behind. At the end of This Mortal Coil, the scene between Zelenka and Mckay, then Sheppard and Mckay is what we call coping with the loss of a friend.

Clever Writing

You just mentioned my least favorite eps this season, very interesting.

I am talking about eps like "Lifeline", "Reunion", "Tabula Rasa", "Doppleganger" "BAMSR", "Adrift", "This Mortal Coil", "Miller's Crossing", "The Seer", and Spoils of War". All had good writing and direction, IMO. I can watch these eps over and over again and still be entertained.

My only regret for next season is no Weir for the Weir story arc which had so much potential. Well Torri quit or declined the role, so nothing we can do about that. Good luck to her.

Reiko
February 13th, 2008, 06:02 PM
Because the moddies want us to stayaway from the topic, I will refrain from discussing BTS with Torri .. but most people already know how I feel about that ;)



Just wanted to weigh in on this, as I'm really glad to see I'm not the only one that's been less than thrilled with recent episodes. I (along with my family members that also follow the show) have been extremely disappointed with the season this year.

Oh, you're definately not the only one, Chopingrl84. Come to the Anti thread. We have cookies :D



Personally JM is doing a good job.
Personally I think that Wright and Cooper should have stayed. Despite the fact they were the ones who kiled Carson I do think management was much better under them.


SGA was set in a different galaxy, with the team isolated from Earth, facing a new enemy and just beginning to uncover a wealth of Ancient heritage. They could've left Atlantis isolated for several more seasons, explore the galaxy, explore the races (the Genii seem such a wasted opportunity), develop characters.

I agree with you MatroxMeteor. Though I think Atlantis should eventually contact Earth, I though their isolation in Pegasus could had have been prolonged for another season. I also think the Genii, and now even, the Wraith are a wasted opportunity. I'm tired of those godawful replicators :S


Yeah, the impact of Weir's (and Carson's) death was just too shallow. They worked and lived together for three years, they endured hardships and mourned deaths of their friends, they established trust between themselves and relied on each other to make it through alive. But here after their deaths it seems like everyone recovered in a couple of days and forgot about them completely. I think many fans just cannot identify themselves with such characters. I cannot identify myself with such a character... In the end I remember SG-1 by the *team*, not by how they defeated big bad new aliens every second week with increasingly big guns and big explosions. Oh wait, they didn't do that!

I also agree with you here. The characters and thier friendships held me for the first three seasons moreso that the SFX. But the sh*t hit the fan after Sunday. Absolutely no mention of Carson in the following two episodes. Elizabeth was only mentioned sparingly this season.

I don't know what I'm watching but it's not Stargate:Atlantis anymore...

s09119
February 13th, 2008, 06:03 PM
Obviously that's your opinion and you're entitled to it but I'd be interested to understand your reasoning behind that statement, that "nearly all" the episodes in Season 4 are rip-offs of SG1. I personally am not seeing that so maybe you could explain which SG1 episodes you think nearly all the Season 4 SGA episodes are ripping off and in what way? What SG1 episode, for example, does Reunion rip off? Or Missing? Or Spoils of War? Or Trio?


There was a fantastic post I saw a few weeks ago about how "Atlantis IS SG-1", but I can't find it anywhere... maybe the mods deleted it.


EDIT: NEVERMIND, found it (http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=51144&highlight=atlantis+sg-1).

Pharaoh Atem
February 13th, 2008, 06:06 PM
i feel the series had no vision for the first 3 seasons ( season 3 perfect example) But now i feel Joe and Paul are trying to give the show a direction and trying to take some of the old stories and trying to incorporate the past into the current and future seasons.

i feel that the series is going somewhere

Mitchell82
February 13th, 2008, 06:25 PM
Amanda's leaving the show wouldn't be an issue at all if Torri hadn't been kicked off. And I would say that signing someone to a 6 year contract then, only going through half of it was reason enough for her to be upset, especially if she moved there to do the show.
Contracts arent written in stone. Those contracts have a "back door" if TPTB are not satisfied with the person in question. I guess I just don't see them as evil as you.


I also don't see how you can have a follow up with the whole "Repli-Weir" thing without Weir. Yeah I know they'll come up with some back story, change her into someone/somethig else. But it won't work for me, they teased Wier now we're not going to get that. I respect that you guys like JM. I don't.... Sorry. But I still love the show, I just don't want it to become BSG.
So try as you may but I'll never be a Mallozzi Hugger.

First there was no way that JM could know that she would refuse to come back hence why he left it open and second how is this becoming BSG?

Briangate78
February 13th, 2008, 07:31 PM
Well I think by the end of this season, there will be a new story arc, or an old story arc combined with a new one. I also heard there will be a new ally and enemy next season? I think it is time for SGA to have a new enemy, but keep the Wraith still a threat.

Pharaoh Atem
February 13th, 2008, 07:31 PM
Well I think by the end of this season, there will be a new story arc, or an old story arc combined with a new one. I also heard there will be a new ally and enemy next season? I think it is time for SGA to have a new enemy, but keep the Wraith still a threat.

well as of right now we can take out the wraith at will. so i think their will take a back seat for a while .

jelgate
February 13th, 2008, 07:33 PM
well as of right now we can take out the wraith at will. so i think their will take a back seat for a while .

How did you come to that conclusion?

Briangate78
February 13th, 2008, 07:33 PM
well as of right now we can take out the wraith at will. so i think their will take a back seat for a while .

That is why I think...

The Michael arc will be very interesting, since he is more complex and not just a Wraith per say.

Pharaoh Atem
February 13th, 2008, 07:39 PM
How did you come to that conclusion?

after BAMSR we could attack the wraith and win IMO every time.

jelgate
February 13th, 2008, 07:47 PM
after BAMSR we could attack the wraith and win IMO every time.

I was under the impression that you thought we could take out all the Wraith.

Pharaoh Atem
February 13th, 2008, 07:50 PM
I was under the impression that you thought we could take out all the Wraith.

in time we can destroy the hives which would take time and that would definelty slow them down and then we could attack the planets their live on

Briangate78
February 13th, 2008, 07:51 PM
after BAMSR we could attack the wraith and win IMO every time.


I was under the impression that you thought we could take out all the Wraith.

I think the Wraith have become very dynamic and a lot smarter. Take Todd and Michael for an example. It will not be about numbers, it will be with how smart and clever they fight now. I think Atlantis is going to be in trouble with that.

Pharaoh Atem
February 13th, 2008, 07:52 PM
I think the Wraith have become very dynamic and a lot smarter. Take Todd and Michael for an example. It will not be about numbers, it will be with how smart and clever they fight now. I think Atlantis is going to be in trouble with that.

true, but IMHO i don't see the wraith as a big threat right now.

Ice Wolf
February 13th, 2008, 07:53 PM
I think the Wraith have become very dynamic and a lot smarter. Take Todd and Michael for an example. It will not be about numbers, it will be with how smart and clever they fight now. I think Atlantis is going to be in trouble with that.

Especially seeing as they (Atlantis and the US Military in the show) seem to make bonehead decision after bonehead decision.

Briangate78
February 13th, 2008, 07:55 PM
Especially seeing as they (Atlantis and the US Military in the show) seem to make bonehead decision after bonehead decision.

It's funny how the Atlantis team are following the Ancients to a tee. Making decisions that put the Pegasus galaxy at risk.


true, but IMHO i don't see the wraith as a big threat right now.

Well I can see where you are coming from. That is why I think Michael is going to be a problem since he is not just a wraith but a scientist and has the intelligence.

Ice Wolf
February 13th, 2008, 08:00 PM
It's funny how the Atlantis team are following the Ancients to a tee. Making decisions that put the Pegasus galaxy at risk.


Generally I think its a problem with the writing both of the Ancients and the current humans. It's almost becoming cliché.

Briangate78
February 13th, 2008, 08:11 PM
Generally I think its a problem with the writing both of the Ancients and the current humans. It's almost becoming cliché.

Actually it makes the writing interesting. Because no one from the 5 races is perfect especially the Tauri who are now the Fifth Race.

Ice Wolf
February 13th, 2008, 08:14 PM
Actually it makes the writing interesting. Because no one from the 5 races is perfect especially the Tauri who are now the Fifth Race.
Except that its increasingly coming off that the Ancients and Modern Humans cant get anything right. It would be much more interesting if they got it right at least some of the time.

Celcool
February 14th, 2008, 12:24 AM
The show's gone completely sideways... Lost its vision, lost its character... It's becoming another 'me too' Sci Fi show: put some aliens in + put it on another planet = got yourself a Sci Fi show. Now: add space ships that make big explosions and some 36-24-36 'doctors' and 'officers' = got yourself a GREAT Sci Fi show. Then: kill off half of major characters that actually add some substance and replace them with more 36-24-36 'doctors' and 'officers' = emotionally turbulent GREAT Sci Fi show. Finally: should it by some cosmic coincidence happen that you replace a major character that adds substance to the show with another one that adds substance to the show - kill it off and make it 'more' emotionally turbulent. P.S. - if you somehow managed to keep some good and developed characters, retard them into comedy reliefs.

You've got yourself a Great Sci Fi show!!!

Any similarity with SGA is purely coincidental...

BLAH...
Jure

Couldn't agree more, Jure! SGA is no longer the show I fell in love with. We should "thank" Mallozi for that, for ruining it completely, stripping it of everything it was unique and special for, turning it into a below average, badly-written and a boring show.

jenks
February 14th, 2008, 01:31 AM
What was unique about Atlantis before Mallozzi took over that isn't now, exactly?

Heaven
February 14th, 2008, 04:46 AM
What was unique about Atlantis before Mallozzi took over that isn't now, exactly?
we've already discussed that, check posts #37, #40 and others.

jenks
February 14th, 2008, 05:00 AM
we've already discussed that, check posts #37, #40 and others.

Those posts seem to be mostly about the introduction of ships, and Atlantis no longer being cut off from Earth, both having nothing to do with Mallozzi as these changes happened in season 2. Other than that just more harping on about Weir and the alleged 'unique feel' she brought to the series. Granted it was different, I can't say I'm used to bad writing of that calibre on Stargate, but that doesn't mean it's something that should be held on to.

Briangate78
February 14th, 2008, 06:46 AM
Couldn't agree more, Jure! SGA is no longer the show I fell in love with. We should "thank" Mallozi for that, for ruining it completely, stripping it of everything it was unique and special for, turning it into a below average, badly-written and a boring show.

Can you do me a favor, can you not attack the producer or any of the cast and crew. It's against the forum rules. Just because you don't like this season, doesn't mean Mallozzi ruined it. Well maybe he ruined it for you, but I think he is doing great. Even Wright and Cooper are pleased, in which this show was their baby.

Naonak
February 14th, 2008, 07:48 AM
But the sh*t hit the fan after Sunday. Absolutely no mention of Carson in the following two episodes.
Well, they did spend those episodes being hunted by Wraith and super-Wraith. I'm not really sure when they would have found time to talk about their feelings, there. "Man, I wish Carson was here. Those giant bugs could eat him instead of me..."

How often would you like them to talk about he and Weir? Personally, I've found the current level to be quite natural.

Briangate78
February 14th, 2008, 08:03 AM
Well, they did spend those episodes being hunted by Wraith and super-Wraith. I'm not really sure when they would have found time to talk about their feelings, there. "Man, I wish Carson was here. Those giant bugs could eat him instead of me..."

How often would you like them to talk about he and Weir? Personally, I've found the current level to be quite natural.

It was well written. Because with Weir, she was still assumed to be alive, and she was mentioned many times after the events of "Lifeline". Since there was hope to bring her back. Carson they saw got blown up and died........or did he? :p Not much to talk about, a lot of the characters kept it inside. Rodney does mention Carson in the end of "TMC" which I thought was a very nice touch.

Cory Holmes
February 14th, 2008, 09:02 AM
As well, having the characters babble on about Carson would get very old very fast. The show has a limited amount of time to tell its story and they can't spend every moment on one (past) character.

I really enjoyed how they threw a reference to Carson in This Mortal Coil and even added one about Elizabeth at the end, not to mention talking about him in First Strike. TMC was nice and in a profoundly emotive moment, far better than spouting off at every other turn.



As for the show losing its way? The only part I miss is the frontier spirit that S1 and the middle half of S2 had. The "cut off from earth and on our own" mentality was one thing I really enjoyed and hope to see again.

But all in all, Atlantis is still a good show with enjoyable characters and great actors. Unlike that steaming pile of turd called BSG :p

Cory Holmes
February 14th, 2008, 09:06 AM
Except that its increasingly coming off that the Ancients and Modern Humans cant get anything right. It would be much more interesting if they got it right at least some of the time.

Have you taken a look outside recently? How have modern humans gotten anything right, especially the first time? I find that Atlantis is a show about learning from your mistakes and doing better.

I like how the Ancients aren't perfect. It makes them a much more enjoyable race to know that they were as flawed as we are now. It seems to me that their biggest sin was of arrogance, that they were secure in the knowledge that they could do no wrong. As soon as they ran into the Wraith and were confronted with the unknown for the first time, they panicked and made mistake after mistake in their bumbling around. I like that.

Briangate78
February 14th, 2008, 09:18 AM
Have you taken a look outside recently? How have modern humans gotten anything right, especially the first time? I find that Atlantis is a show about learning from your mistakes and doing better.

I like how the Ancients aren't perfect. It makes them a much more enjoyable race to know that they were as flawed as we are now. It seems to me that their biggest sin was of arrogance, that they were secure in the knowledge that they could do no wrong. As soon as they ran into the Wraith and were confronted with the unknown for the first time, they panicked and made mistake after mistake in their bumbling around. I like that.

I think it is more enjoyable knowing that the 4 original races were not always perfect or had a weakness. This season has truly been a battle of the morals. You had one enemy feeding off humans to survive, with a total different enemy wiping out millions of people to starve the other enemy. The enemy of my enemy is my friend? It's truly been an interesting season for S4. I think Season 5 will take us into a direction where yet again mistakes will happen, perhaps mistakes made even back earlier that are now beginning to surface. A good example...... Michael!

Cory Holmes
February 14th, 2008, 09:40 AM
I think it is more enjoyable knowing that the 4 original races were not always perfect or had a weakness. This season has truly been a battle of the morals. You had one enemy feeding off humans to survive, with a total different enemy wiping out millions of people to starve the other enemy. The enemy of my enemy is my friend? It's truly been an interesting season for S4. I think Season 5 will take us into a direction where yet again mistakes will happen, perhaps mistakes made even back earlier that are now beginning to surface. A good example...... Michael!

Green for you.

Naonak
February 14th, 2008, 11:39 AM
Carson they saw got blown up and died........or did he? :p Not much to talk about, a lot of the characters kept it inside. Rodney does mention Carson in the end of "TMC" which I thought was a very nice touch.
Personally I thought that Rodney/Zelenka was one of the best scenes of the season. David Hewlett was great.

nx01a
February 14th, 2008, 12:04 PM
I can't fault the actors [except Teyla's "Climb the tower?! Is that even possible?!" from 'Quarantine'] but we've seen nothing but filler episodes for the last month since 'Spoils of War'. Granted, each second half filler episode followed up on a first half filler episode: 'Tabula Rasa' - 'Quarantine', 'Missing' - 'Trio', 'Miller's Crossing' - 'Outcast', maybe even 'Travelers' - 'Harmony' :P. Despite it being nice to follow the threads and themes introduced earlier in the season, these last four were, well, boring, like the smaller twin of the first half. Maybe my battle fatigue is just from having them all in a row, but I found the first half filler episodes much more interesting.
And you don't need cgi to make an episode exciting, just good lines and a mostly original plot that'll have ramifications for those involved.

Briangate78
February 14th, 2008, 12:25 PM
Personally I thought that Rodney/Zelenka was one of the best scenes of the season. David Hewlett was great.

TMC is one of my favorite eps of the season. Because you truly saw how much they cared for Weir. Teyla and Ronon had their moments in the first few eps. This episode reflected how Mckay and Sheppard reacted. Truly well done, imo.

Edit: That scene in TMC, when Rodney says "This is Carson all over again" was an excellent line. I cannot wait till "The Kindred"!

Mitchell82
February 14th, 2008, 01:16 PM
I can't fault the actors [except Teyla's "Climb the tower?! Is that even possible?!" from 'Quarantine'] but we've seen nothing but filler episodes for the last month since 'Spoils of War'. Granted, each second half filler episode followed up on a first half filler episode: 'Tabula Rasa' - 'Quarantine', 'Missing' - 'Trio', 'Miller's Crossing' - 'Outcast', maybe even 'Travelers' - 'Harmony' :P. Despite it being nice to follow the threads and themes introduced earlier in the season, these last four were, well, boring, like the smaller twin of the first half. Maybe my battle fatigue is just from having them all in a row, but I found the first half filler episodes much more interesting.
And you don't need cgi to make an episode exciting, just good lines and a mostly original plot that'll have ramifications for those involved.
This season has had alot of filler eps but so far they have all been very character oriented which was a good thing.

Celcool
February 17th, 2008, 12:05 AM
Can you do me a favor, can you not attack the producer or any of the cast and crew. It's against the forum rules. Just because you don't like this season, doesn't mean Mallozzi ruined it. Well maybe he ruined it for you, but I think he is doing great. Even Wright and Cooper are pleased, in which this show was their baby.

My post is within the rules, maybe you should take a look at them, I don't think there's a rule against expressing one's opinion.

Ice Wolf
February 17th, 2008, 12:43 AM
Even Wright and Cooper are pleased, in which this show was their baby.
To be fair they would never say that the show has been ruined and that they hated the developments.

bluealien
February 17th, 2008, 12:56 AM
To be fair they would never say that the show has been ruined and that they hated the developments.

And why would they say something like that when the show is far from being ruined and the developements so far this season have been great. SGA is one of the top scifi show out there IMO and Midway just proved what an awesome show it is, and how much it has improved over the years..

jenks
February 17th, 2008, 04:57 AM
To be fair they would never say that the show has been ruined and that they hated the developments.

Of course they wouldn't, it would just make them look jealous of how much better M&M are doing. :)

Mitchell82
February 17th, 2008, 09:43 AM
My post is within the rules, maybe you should take a look at them, I don't think there's a rule against expressing one's opinion.

No you can express your opinion but you were skirting the line. attacking the producers are forbidden and you came damn close to breaking that rule.

Cabbit
February 17th, 2008, 07:05 PM
For me, there are two things SGA hasn't used much this season:

Conflict. Granted Carter is a seasoned-galaxy-savin'-genius-soldier-colonel-woman, but the Atlantis expedition BONDED with Weir. She was with them from the beginning. They survived TWO near death attacks on Atlantis with her. Throwing in a new commander, I don’t care how awesome she is, should bring out some human nature. Teyla, even as diplomatic as she is, could have at least ONE disagreement with Carter that may not be so diplomatic in words. How about Rodney trying to defend one of Sam's decision to Teyla or Ronan (Sheppard less since he's a subordinate) or back up a decision or action from his team to Sam? Or Sam overriding Sheppeard's decisions in a situation where he is "more experienced" in fighting Wraith. Keller making a mistake that costs the life of one of Sheppard's men. Scenes like Teyla threatening Ronan in Trinity, Weir and Sheppard on going after Sumner and the Athosians, Caldwell and Weir on "sweeping changes" to the way Sheppard did things made the show far more interesting than everyone getting along all the time. CONFLICT, it wasn't just us versus wraith, it was us vs wraith vs ourselves. Carter shutting down Ellis after he verbally demeaned McKay is one of my favorite scenes this season, not because it's "funny" but because of all the viewpoints each person had that got thrown into a mix.

STARGATE. SG, the movie, was based on the premise of exploring into the unknown. SGA seems to have lost that aspect entirely. This season has been very contained on ships or on base. Sure, there are eps where they got offworld, and I enjoyed seeing other cultures, races and something new (Missing, Harmony lol). Let’s see the team MORE out of their element. There's nothing wrong with the epic space battles or going back to Earth, but the show is called STARGATE. Let’s use it! Of course, "Star" is the first syllable...

Mitchell82
February 17th, 2008, 07:23 PM
For me, there are two things SGA hasn't used much this season:

Conflict. Granted Carter is a seasoned-galaxy-savin'-genius-soldier-colonel-woman, but the Atlantis expedition BONDED with Weir. She was with them from the beginning. They survived TWO near death attacks on Atlantis with her. Throwing in a new commander, I don’t care how awesome she is, should bring out some human nature. Teyla, even as diplomatic as she is, could have at least ONE disagreement with Carter that may not be so diplomatic in words. How about Rodney trying to defend one of Sam's decision to Teyla or Ronan (Sheppard less since he's a subordinate) or back up a decision or action from his team to Sam? Or Sam overriding Sheppeard's decisions in a situation where he is "more experienced" in fighting Wraith. Keller making a mistake that costs the life of one of Sheppard's men. Scenes like Teyla threatening Ronan in Trinity, Weir and Sheppard on going after Sumner and the Athosians, Caldwell and Weir on "sweeping changes" to the way Sheppard did things made the show far more interesting than everyone getting along all the time. CONFLICT, it wasn't just us versus wraith, it was us vs wraith vs ourselves. Carter shutting down Ellis after he verbally demeaned McKay is one of my favorite scenes this season, not because it's "funny" but because of all the viewpoints each person had that got thrown into a mix.
I agree that conflict hasn't been as extreme as the other seasons however there were more than just her conflict with Ellis. There was conflict in The Seer, Dopplegnger, BAMSR and many others.


STARGATE. SG, the movie, was based on the premise of exploring into the unknown. SGA seems to have lost that aspect entirely. This season has been very contained on ships or on base. Sure, there are eps where they got offworld, and I enjoyed seeing other cultures, races and something new (Missing, Harmony lol). Let’s see the team MORE out of their element. There's nothing wrong with the epic space battles or going back to Earth, but the show is called STARGATE. Let’s use it! Of course, "Star" is the first syllable...
I disagree. I think they have the right balance with that IMO.

MattSilver 3k
February 18th, 2008, 06:18 PM
This is what's happening:

For some reason, TPTB decided to off Carson for dramatic effect. The smarter TPTB decided to bring him back.
Weir was stale, so she was re-written as a new character (Recurring). Torri decides to not come back, and that's her descison.
Keller was brought in to replace Carson and gain some Firefly fans. That and Jewel is a good actress. Everyone hates Keller because she's apparently whiny. Compared to early days (And sometimes present day) McKay, she's not that bad and has redeeming moments.
Carter was brought in to replace Weir. I don't know why, but she was a good fit IMO. AT decides to pursue her own series. Good on her, and now we have a dilemna - who do we replace her with.
Personally, I think AT would've gone for another year or two if not for Sanctuary.
We got Woolsey. Get over it. I'm looking forward to a leader who conflicts with the characters, but is redeemable in the end somehow. Woolsey has proved himself in previous episodes, and I think he will be a very odd but welcome addition.

Meh. That's what's happening in Atlantis.

Briangate78
February 18th, 2008, 06:23 PM
This is what's happening:

For some reason, TPTB decided to off Carson for dramatic effect. The smarter TPTB decided to bring him back.
Weir was stale, so she was re-written as a new character (Recurring). Torri decides to not come back, and that's her descison.
Keller was brought in to replace Carson and gain some Firefly fans. That and Jewel is a good actress. Everyone hates Keller because she's apparently whiny. Compared to early days (And sometimes present day) McKay, she's not that bad and has redeeming moments.
Carter was brought in to replace Weir. I don't know why, but she was a good fit IMO. AT decides to pursue her own series. Good on her, and now we have a dilemna - who do we replace her with.
Personally, I think AT would've gone for another year or two if not for Sanctuary.
We got Woolsey. Get over it. I'm looking forward to a leader who conflicts with the characters, but is redeemable in the end somehow. Woolsey has proved himself in previous episodes, and I think he will be a very odd but welcome addition.

Meh. That's what's happening in Atlantis.

Ok, I have to stop you there for a sec. :p You said everyone hates Keller?? We did a poll on the official SCI FI forum and 90 out of 100 people would like Keller to continue with at least a recurring role and 75% like the the idea of her going to Full-Time. The other 10% want her gone.

So I think Keller has been well accepted by the fans. Perhaps Carson returning for 5 eps next season has soften that up a little, who knows.

As per SGA, if they keep having eps like last Friday's this show will be going nowhere anytime soon. :)

ToasterOnFire
February 18th, 2008, 06:38 PM
Of course they wouldn't, it would just make them look jealous of how much better M&M are doing. :)
Of course! Every time Bill Clinton speaks out against Bush it just makes him look jealous of how much better Bush is doing! :)

Ice Wolf
February 18th, 2008, 06:39 PM
Of course! Every time Bill Clinton speaks out against Bush it just makes him look jealous of how much better Bush is doing! :)

dont tease lol.

jelgate
February 18th, 2008, 06:40 PM
Of course! Every time Bill Clinton speaks out against Bush it just makes him look jealous of how much better Bush is doing! :)

Because he is doing better than Clinton. Bear in mind that everyone can do better than Clinton;)

Jumper_One
February 18th, 2008, 06:48 PM
Because he is doing better than Clinton. Bear in mind that everyone can do better than Clinton;)

err... no

Ice Wolf
February 18th, 2008, 06:51 PM
err... no

next thing we will hear is at least he's not as bad as Hitler.

Must get back on topic lol.

I think they changes haven't necessarily made the show better or worse just different. Its not really the same show any more. This new show I'm not interested in anywhere near as much as the old one.

Cynycal
February 18th, 2008, 10:00 PM
whats happening to SGA?...

well for one its getting better, don't get me wrong I liked carson alot but they could kill off half the cast and replace them with Ex-Firefly cast members as long as they dont actually touch the main team.

besides carson is gettin some eps in s5 so who cares

Sam > Wier

(sad to see her go actually)

and Robert Picardo is the man X 10

philstar22
February 18th, 2008, 10:24 PM
I'm not a fan of the lastest season, though I have liked a few episodes. Elizebeth was my favorite character, and the show is really missing her. I adored Sam on SG1, but she just doesn't fit with Atlantis. I'm actually excited about Woolsey, though. I think that he will make for a more interesting season 5.

alyssa
February 18th, 2008, 10:45 PM
Can you do me a favor, can you not attack the producer or any of the cast and crew. It's against the forum rules. Just because you don't like this season, doesn't mean Mallozzi ruined it. Well maybe he ruined it for you, but I think he is doing great. Even Wright and Cooper are pleased, in which this show was their baby.

You asked them personally, did you? Because if I know anything about PR and publicity, it's that those in charge will back their people in public, no matter what. Though JM has a funny way of doing it...

Consider how many actors/producers have done shows/movies, promoted the hell out of them at the time, and then later, with the passage of time, said it was a nightmare and the biggest piece of crap they were ever associated with.

TPTB in any show are like politicians. They talk up everything, so that people will stay interested. It's their job, and what they say should be taken with a grain of salt. Or perhaps a bucket....

ziga1980
February 19th, 2008, 03:10 AM
I didn't read all the posts so someone might have already pointed a few thing out. sorry if i repeat them.

first of all, atlantis is clearly going off track. their crucial mistake is that they think people like new enemies, more powerful and mysterious. WRONG. people like new enemies as long as they're introduced correctly. when they introduced replicators I thought that it was a good thing. the story arc had great potential. there was so many things they could have done with them. for instance recreate the war between ancients and the wraith, tell us more about it, tell us what the was like pegasus pre-war, just to name a few possibilities.

and more to this, they start introducing new enemies when we're not even finished with the first one. we're nowhere near the end of the wraith plot and we've finished off replicators....wtf?? and now there is a new "mysterious" (read : BORING) enemy in season 5.

second, they think people like new characters. WRONG again. it's not that i don't like hot chicks in the show, it's just that atlantis is crawling with them right now. and leather uniforms....oh please. SG-1 only had carter and it was more than enough.

third, what's with all the explosions. not a show goes by where there's not an explosion. it seems everything explodes now days. why is that? explosions don't make a show better....

furthermore, we ALWAYS win. i'm sick of watching "us" kick ass all around the galaxy. we kick wraith ass, we kick replicator ass, we will even kick ass in season 5. and i don't understand why there can't be any casualties on our side. when they killed off becektt they could have done it better. he could've died in a battle saving someones life (or the whole atlantis for that matter). same with ford/wier.

every ep should be around someone/something so there is always a strong possibility that one or more (main)characters are going to die or that we loose something (a ship, zpm, atlantis). and i hope that in the end of the season atlantis sustains some heavy losses. it's the only way the show will last beyond s5.

(if it was up to me, in the last ep of s4 atlantis would fall into enemy hands...wraith hands. most of the expedition is killed - fed on - and the remaining personnel evacuates of world....main characters, and a few others. this way everything is left open. s5 would be about reclaiming atlantis and establishing a link with earth.) - just my opinion.

Alipeeps
February 19th, 2008, 05:57 AM
There was a fantastic post I saw a few weeks ago about how "Atlantis IS SG-1", but I can't find it anywhere... maybe the mods deleted it.

EDIT: NEVERMIND, found it (http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=51144&highlight=atlantis+sg-1).

Yeah already posted over there about the problems inherent in comparing very condensed summaries of plots etc - a lot of the comparisons given as evidence in that thread were tenuous at best. I was interested in the reasoning in the post I was replying to behind the statement that every episode is a rip off of SG1. I don't see it personally, so I was interested to know what the OP saw as evidence for the rip-off.


I didn't read all the posts so someone might have already pointed a few thing out. sorry if i repeat them. [snipped] for length]


Actually, all of the above is your opinion. And you're entitled to it. But please don't try and present it as fact and tell me - or any other fan - what we do or do not like or want to see in the show. :)

FoolishPleasure
February 19th, 2008, 06:09 AM
Ok, I have to stop you there for a sec. :p You said everyone hates Keller?? We did a poll on the official SCI FI forum and 90 out of 100 people would like Keller to continue with at least a recurring role and 75% like the the idea of her going to Full-Time. The other 10% want her gone.

So I think Keller has been well accepted by the fans. Perhaps Carson returning for 5 eps next season has soften that up a little, who knows.


The only poll I know of at SciFi is this one:

Who do you like better?

Dr. Beckett [ 110 ] [66.67%]
Dr. Keller [ 28 ] [16.97%]
Like them both the same. [ 24 ] [14.55%]
Don't like either of them. [ 3 ] [1.82%]


Season 5 is a go, who would you want to see in Season 5 if it were possible to bring them back?

Dr. Beckett [ 83 ] [50.30%]
Dr. Keller [ 27 ] [16.36%]
Both [ 50 ] [30.30%]
Neither of them [ 5 ] [3.03%]

So, no. I don't think Keller is all that popular.

Briangate78
February 19th, 2008, 06:13 AM
The only poll I know of at SciFi is this one:

Who do you like better?

Dr. Beckett [ 110 ] [66.67%]
Dr. Keller [ 28 ] [16.97%]
Like them both the same. [ 24 ] [14.55%]
Don't like either of them. [ 3 ] [1.82%]


Season 5 is a go, who would you want to see in Season 5 if it were possible to bring them back?

Dr. Beckett [ 83 ] [50.30%]
Dr. Keller [ 27 ] [16.36%]
Both [ 50 ] [30.30%]
Neither of them [ 5 ] [3.03%]

So, no. I don't think Keller is all that popular.


That poll was done in the beginning of the season so things have changed. Trust me on that one, I know. Also nearly 50% would like Keller to return in S5 and also Carson. Basically both of them.

FoolishPleasure
February 19th, 2008, 06:53 AM
That poll was done in the beginning of the season so things have changed. Trust me on that one, I know. Also nearly 50% would like Keller to return in S5 and also Carson. Basically both of them.


That poll I posted was on the first page of the SGA forum so it is current and viable. What is the link to the poll you are talking about?

Briangate78
February 19th, 2008, 06:59 AM
That poll I posted was on the first page of the SGA forum so it is current and viable. What is the link to the poll you are talking about?

It is in the Trio discussion thread on top. It a question in the poll about Keller coming on the show Full-time.

I started the other poll that you posted here back on Nov 7th. I think Keller had only been in 2 eps so far.

ciannwn
February 19th, 2008, 07:10 AM
So I think Keller has been well accepted by the fans. Perhaps Carson returning for 5 eps next season has soften that up a little, who knows.

For me it has nothing to do with knowing how many episodes Beckett is in next season. I just thought that they went a bit over the top with her in 'Missing' but I liked her in 'Trio'.

I think a lot of people were annoyed because they felt that Beckett had been disposed of just so he could be replaced by a 'hot young thing' for the benefit of male viewers. I was one of them because I can be very cynical where TV shows are concerned. It's not that I'm against the idea of 'hot young things' on principle - I just want them to be interesting characters in their own right because not all viewers are males who like a character for the sole reason she's 'hot'.

I don't like Larrin because of the way she's written, not because she has a fondness for low cut leather tops. For me, her behaviour when Sheppard was trying to find a hiding place in 'Travellers' was ludicrous seeing as she's supposed to be a leader. Why couldn't she be a strong, serious female character? My guess is that TPTB were worried about making her believable because a strong, seriously written female character who likes tying Sheppard to chairs would be too much like BSG. :D

My husband, for all that he's a male viewer, would rather have Beckett in the show than Keller and he dismissed Larrin as 'A typical warrior princess. Over the top and in your face".

Briangate78
February 19th, 2008, 07:13 AM
For me it has nothing to do with knowing how many episodes Beckett is in next season. I just thought that they went a bit over the top with her in 'Missing' but I liked her in 'Trio'.

I think a lot of people were annoyed because they felt that Beckett had been disposed of just so he could be replaced by a 'hot young thing' for the benefit of male viewers. I was one of them because I can be very cynical where TV shows are concerned. It's not that I'm against the idea of 'hot young things' on principle - I just want them to be interesting characters in their own right because not all viewers are males who like a character for the sole reason she's 'hot'.

I don't like Larrin because of the way she's written, not because she has a fondness for low cut leather tops. For me, her behaviour when Sheppard was trying to find a hiding place in 'Travellers' was ludicrous seeing as she's supposed to be a leader. Why couldn't she be a strong, serious female character? My guess is that TPTB were worried about making her believable because a strong, seriously written female character who likes tying Sheppard to chairs would be too much like BSG. :D

My husband, for all that he's a male viewer, would rather have Beckett in the show than Keller and he dismissed Larrin as 'A typical warrior princess. Over the top and in your face".

Well we are going to have both Carson and Keller next season which I think is great. I am just hoping there will be more than 5 eps for Carson since the 5 is not written in stone.

FoolishPleasure
February 19th, 2008, 07:35 AM
It is in the Trio discussion thread on top. It a question in the poll about Keller coming on the show Full-time.

I started the other poll that you posted here back on Nov 7th. I think Keller had only been in 2 eps so far.

*Sigh* You are referencing a poll buried within a thread that doesn't even pertain to the Keller/Beckett issue. *shakes head*

The Beckett Vs. Keller thread/poll is what I would consider "official". Anyone looking for a discussion and/or poll for these two characters would gravitate there, NOT to a singular episode thread that they may not even bother to read if they weren't interested in that episode.

The B vs. K thread is still active and moving, and votes are still tallied daily. The link is here: http://forums.scifi.com/index.php?showtopic=2292694, and the most recent post was last night. It is a CURRENT WORKING poll. It has not been closed.

Again, the poll you mentioned is buried in a completely different thread, with several other polls. You can't get an accurate survey with that kind of poll. You can spin it all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that the actual B vs. K poll results, as of TODAY are listed in my post above.

That's all I'm gonna say on it.

Briangate78
February 19th, 2008, 07:43 AM
Well you are missing my point as well. I am just going to move on with this. :)

ziga1980
February 19th, 2008, 12:37 PM
I was interested in the reasoning in the post I was replying to behind the statement that every episode is a rip off of SG1. I don't see it personally, so I was interested to know what the OP saw as evidence for the rip-off.

Actually, all of the above is your opinion. And you're entitled to it. But please don't try and present it as fact and tell me - or any other fan - what we do or do not like or want to see in the show. :)

i know it's just my opinion and i didn't want to tell anyone what he/she can or can't like. perhaps i made my arguments a bit too strong, because i'm quite annoyed when i think/talk about atlantis (i also made so many foolish mistakes in that post that i'm ashamed of it)

btw where did you read atlantis is just an SG-1 rip-off? ....if it only was....

Alipeeps
February 19th, 2008, 12:58 PM
Well you are missing my point as well. I am just going to move on with this. :)

Quoting online poll results in an effort to prove an argument, or that one "side" is more right than another, is in and of itself pretty pointless anyway. :D

Online polls are for fun. They aren't objective proof of anything. :)

PG15
February 19th, 2008, 01:03 PM
The only poll I know of at SciFi is this one:

Who do you like better?

Dr. Beckett [ 110 ] [66.67%]
Dr. Keller [ 28 ] [16.97%]
Like them both the same. [ 24 ] [14.55%]
Don't like either of them. [ 3 ] [1.82%]


Season 5 is a go, who would you want to see in Season 5 if it were possible to bring them back?

Dr. Beckett [ 83 ] [50.30%]
Dr. Keller [ 27 ] [16.36%]
Both [ 50 ] [30.30%]
Neither of them [ 5 ] [3.03%]

So, no. I don't think Keller is all that popular.

False conclusion. All we know from those polls is that Beckett is more popular than Keller (for the people who voted), not that Keller is intrinsically unpopular.

Fenrir Foxz
February 19th, 2008, 01:11 PM
False conclusion. All we know from those polls is that Beckett is more popular than Keller (for the people who voted), not that Keller is intrinsically unpopular.

Yeah I agree... I'm sure Brian mentioned a poll on Sci-fi exclusively about Keller and she did quite well on it... where is he when you need him? :P

Willow'sCat
February 19th, 2008, 01:17 PM
False conclusion. All we know from those polls is that Beckett is more popular than Keller (for the people who voted), not that Keller is intrinsically unpopular.Exactly, I rarely vote on forum polls, and most forum polls can be easily manipulated by "sockpuppets".

Also why would it be suprising that a character (Carson) that has had 3 years of development, and 3 years of being in fandom's mind would turn out to be more "poplular" then one that has had less then what? 8 eps to her name? *shocking!* :eek::rolleyes::p

Briangate78
February 19th, 2008, 01:20 PM
Quoting online poll results in an effort to prove an argument, or that one "side" is more right than another, is in and of itself pretty pointless anyway. :D

Online polls are for fun. They aren't objective proof of anything. :)

LOL, I hear ya. But I think as long as they are controlled they hold more value. Both GW and SCI FI only allow one member to vote once. I think GW even limits it by IP address and marks a cookie on that computer. I mean someone can of course get around it. :rolleyes: You really just have to read everyone's posts and see what they say. From what I have seen by people chatting. They are enjoying Keller, but not everyone of course.

atlantis2k8
February 19th, 2008, 02:09 PM
Are they bringing Carson back? He's apparently returning as an Ascended being? Can anybody tell me if he's coming back or not?

jenks
February 19th, 2008, 02:12 PM
Are they bringing Carson back? He's apparently returning as an Ascended being? Can anybody tell me if he's coming back or not?

Yes, not a chance and yes.

atlantis2k8
February 19th, 2008, 02:14 PM
Yes, not a chance and yes.

then how are they bringing him back?

Naonak
February 19th, 2008, 02:17 PM
then how are they bringing him back?
You could, you know, watch the episode and find out...

But the most popular theory seems to be that:
Back in "Misbegotten" Michael replaced him with a clone and kidnapped the real one. The one that died in "Sunday" was the clone.

jenks
February 19th, 2008, 02:18 PM
That seems to be the general consensus, but I have a feeling a lot of people are going to be disappointed.

atlantis2k8
February 19th, 2008, 02:19 PM
You could, you know, watch the episode and find out...

But the most popular theory seems to be that:
Back in "Misbegotten" Michael replaced him with a clone and kidnapped the real one. The one that died in "Sunday" was the clone.

Thanks alot!!

Jumper_One
February 19th, 2008, 02:21 PM
That seems to be the general consensus, but I have a feeling a lot of people are going to be disappointed.

do you have another theory? I'm just curious...

jenks
February 19th, 2008, 02:33 PM
I don't think the Carson we see in The Kindred will be the original Carson, I think he'll be some sort of clone.

Jumper_One
February 19th, 2008, 02:40 PM
I don't think the Carson we see in The Kindred will be the original Carson, I think he'll be some sort of clone.

oh ok. you mean Michael never replaced the real Carson and the person in The Kindred is a clone. it's certainly a possibility but I think a lot of fans would be disappointed if this were true

atlantis2k8
February 19th, 2008, 02:42 PM
oh ok. you mean Michael never replaced the real Carson and the person in The Kindred is a clone. it's certainly a possibility but I think a lot of fans would be disappointed if this were true

Are we to assume that the clone will have all of Carsons memorys like the clone of O'Neill did in SG1?

Jumper_One
February 19th, 2008, 02:48 PM
Are we to assume that the clone will have all of Carsons memorys like the clone of O'Neill did in SG1?

yes I guess we are

atlantis2k8
February 19th, 2008, 03:05 PM
How did the Wraith clone him though?

Ice Wolf
February 19th, 2008, 03:16 PM
How did the Wraith clone him though?

we found out in Spoils of War
That the Wraith are quite adept at cloning

Michael probably took samples when he had Becket captive.

Alipeeps
February 19th, 2008, 03:16 PM
Can we please take the speculation on Carson's return to the appropriate thread (like, the The Kindred Discussion and Speculation thread). Personally, I'm staying pretty much spoiler-free for these eps and I don't want to know in advance how he comes back, or what people's theories on the subject are.

Cheers. :)

atlantis2k8
February 19th, 2008, 03:21 PM
When is The Kindred episode?

Alipeeps
February 19th, 2008, 03:26 PM
When is The Kindred episode?

Next week. And there's a thread where you can discuss it to your heart's content right here (http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=44689).

atlantis2k8
February 19th, 2008, 03:31 PM
Cheers

Mitchell82
February 20th, 2008, 11:17 AM
oh ok. you mean Michael never replaced the real Carson and the person in The Kindred is a clone. it's certainly a possibility but I think a lot of fans would be disappointed if this were true

I hope thats not the case though truthfully either way is fine by me I just prefer the other way.

Briangate78
February 20th, 2008, 11:21 AM
I hope thats not the case though truthfully either way is fine by me I just prefer the other way.

Same here, also won't a cloned Carson be a security risk? With him recurring next season that would not really bold over too well. Then again the clone thing worked wonders for Farscape. A.k.a. "Eat me" :p

Mitchell82
February 20th, 2008, 11:25 AM
Same here, also won't a cloned Carson be a security risk? With him recurring next season that would not really bold over too well. Then again the clone thing worked wonders for Farscape. A.k.a. "Eat me" :p

Yeah it would be a huge risk as we could never know his true intentions.

somme
February 20th, 2008, 11:42 AM
Last weeks episode was good - the few before have been a chore to watch.

Jumper_One
February 20th, 2008, 11:43 AM
Last weeks episode was good - the few before have been a chore to watch.

you're gonna love The Kindred and TLM ;) :D

somme
February 20th, 2008, 11:59 AM
you're gonna love The Kindred and TLM ;) :D
Here's hoping. :D

GoSpikey
February 20th, 2008, 01:04 PM
you're gonna love The Kindred and TLM ;) :D

I just want them all two, or three, or better, four, in one day! Argh! :D

Mitchell82
February 20th, 2008, 01:07 PM
I just want them all two, or three, or better, four, in one day! Argh! :D

I wish.

GoSpikey
February 20th, 2008, 01:18 PM
I wish.

I just really don't want to start biting my nails... :P

Jumper_One
February 20th, 2008, 04:56 PM
I just really don't want to start biting my nails... :P

:eek: you still got some??? mine are long gone ;)

GoSpikey
February 20th, 2008, 05:00 PM
:eek: you still got some??? mine are long gone ;)

Yup, I do! :P

Although I must admit that my right thumb nail didn't make today... :P

I'll probably only watch the ep on Sat, if it's online then, cos I'm from Europe...

If I'm not lucky, it's Sunday? :S

ziga1980
February 21st, 2008, 04:58 AM
Yup, I do! :P

Although I must admit that my right thumb nail didn't make today... :P

I'll probably only watch the ep on Sat, if it's online then, cos I'm from Europe...

If I'm not lucky, it's Sunday? :S

yeah me to. hope we get lucky this time...

GoSpikey
February 21st, 2008, 07:24 AM
yeah me to. hope we get lucky this time...

So, how's iTunes these days? :P

Freekzilla
February 21st, 2008, 10:57 AM
The fans don't have anything to do with TPTB's decision-making. They can't possibly do. The fans like different things about the show, want different things from it, like some characters, hate others etc etc etc etc etc. So which fans would you suggest TPTB listen to and take into account in their decision-making?

For every fan upset over Carson's death, there's another who was pleased to see him go and another who didn't care one way or the other. For every fan mourning the loss of Weir, there's another who is glad she is gone or who prefers Carter or who would like Caldwell in command, or whatever. TPTB try and make the best show they can - they want to show to succeed because they want to stay employed! Whether or not their vision for the show meets what you want from it is another matter entirely... but there's not really a lot they can do about that.

As the saying goes, you can please some of the people all of the time, or all of the people some of the time; you can never please all of the people all of the time.

I'd beg to differ on that one part. I think, that the vast majority of fans were a bit miffed with Carson's dismissal. That is, of the fans on here of course. But with what I have seen, I seriously think it's a good possibility that a good portion outside of GW were displeased too. Otherwise, why would they be bringing him back at all? It's too much of a turn around for it to be 100% coincidental. Even if it was only a tiny minute influence, then it would be evidence that it was a less than prudent decision to begin with. If it was just a decision and things went on normally, without any repercussions, then I'd accept it as just part of the business, hated it, but lived with it. But when a turnaround like this happens, it just screams, "Oops, my bad!" on TPTB's part.

The one thing I would agree with him on, is that with the "chair at the top's" statement really is not the best thing to say. In fact, I think it was completely wrong to say. It sends the wrong message. A more eloquent way to say it would have been, "While we wish we could give the fans everything they hope for, it would be impractical and impossible given all of the constraints we have to work with. So, we try to make the best decisions within the guidelines we have to work with." If the top chair had said THAT, or something like it, I think a lot more people would support that chair's decisions. But unfortunately, that is not the case. I in fact feel that there is some sort of a disdain and contempt for us "lowers". And I have gotten that kind of vibe from other statements from said chair before, so I don't think the impression is wrong, IMHO. But this is neither here nor there, as it is factually correct if albeit a bit brash.

Briangate78
February 21st, 2008, 11:19 AM
I'd beg to differ on that one part. I think, that the vast majority of fans were a bit miffed with Carson's dismissal. That is, of the fans on here of course. But with what I have seen, I seriously think it's a good possibility that a good portion outside of GW were displeased too. Otherwise, why would they be bringing him back at all? It's too much of a turn around for it to be 100% coincidental. Even if it was only a tiny minute influence, then it would be evidence that it was a less than prudent decision to begin with. If it was just a decision and things went on normally, without any repercussions, then I'd accept it as just part of the business, hated it, but lived with it. But when a turnaround like this happens, it just screams, "Oops, my bad!" on TPTB's part.



See, I think the fans influenced Carson's return. The network, MGM, and the producers saw how much love there was for this one character and support. I think Carson would of just returned for the next two eps this season and that was it. I think because of the fan support we have Carson recurring next season for at least 5 eps. Yes, 5 is not set in stone.

I agree with Ali as well. Characters come and go, whether it is an actor's choice or a creative decision. It is the overall quality of the show that counts to most viewers. Some folks continue not to watch because one character is gone, where others are happy this character is gone, and while others don't care as long as the Deadalus is still blowing up Wraith Hive ships, lol.

Close to 2 million viewers tuned in for "Midway" last Friday. Do you think all of them know about the cast changes for next season? Heck no, they look at the overall quality. If the episodes are enjoyable they will stick with the show and keep watching.

Myles
February 21st, 2008, 11:51 AM
I'd beg to differ on that one part. I think, that the vast majority of fans were a bit miffed with Carson's dismissal. That is, of the fans on here of course. But with what I have seen, I seriously think it's a good possibility that a good portion outside of GW were displeased too. Otherwise, why would they be bringing him back at all? It's too much of a turn around for it to be 100% coincidental. Even if it was only a tiny minute influence, then it would be evidence that it was a less than prudent decision to begin with. If it was just a decision and things went on normally, without any repercussions, then I'd accept it as just part of the business, hated it, but lived with it. But when a turnaround like this happens, it just screams, "Oops, my bad!" on TPTB's part.

The one thing I would agree with him on, is that with the "chair at the top's" statement really is not the best thing to say. In fact, I think it was completely wrong to say. It sends the wrong message. A more eloquent way to say it would have been, "While we wish we could give the fans everything they hope for, it would be impractical and impossible given all of the constraints we have to work with. So, we try to make the best decisions within the guidelines we have to work with." If the top chair had said THAT, or something like it, I think a lot more people would support that chair's decisions. But unfortunately, that is not the case. I in fact feel that there is some sort of a disdain and contempt for us "lowers". And I have gotten that kind of vibe from other statements from said chair before, so I don't think the impression is wrong, IMHO. But this is neither here nor there, as it is factually correct if albeit a bit brash.


The produces have been hinting at it since it happened. Check out Joe M's poem for last half of season 3 and season 4, it's plainly obvious.