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GateWorld
January 30th, 2008, 07:07 PM
<DIV ALIGN="center"><TABLE WIDTH="450" BORDER="0" CELLSPACING="0" CELLPADDING="7"><TR><TD><DIV ALIGN="left"><FONT FACE="Verdana, Arial, san-serif" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s4/419.shtml"><IMG SRC="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/graphics/419.jpg" WIDTH="160" HEIGHT="120" ALIGN="right" HSPACE="10" VSPACE="2" BORDER="0" STYLE="border: 1px black solid" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#888888">ATLANTIS SEASON FOUR</FONT>
<FONT SIZE="4"><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s4/419.shtml" STYLE="text-decoration: none">THE KINDRED, PART 2</A></FONT>
<FONT SIZE="1">EPISODE NUMBER - 419</FONT>
<IMG SRC="/images/clear.gif" WIDTH="1" HEIGHT="10" ALT="">
The team is shocked when an old friend, believed to be dead, miraculously returns to them. Teyla plans an escape from Michael's captivity.

<FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#888888"><B><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s4/419.shtml">VISIT THE EPISODE GUIDE ></A></B>
SPOILERS! PHOTOS! AND MORE!</FONT></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

Vala_M
February 29th, 2008, 07:05 PM
Wow! First post!

What tense episode! So is Dr. Beckett real or a clone? I don't believe he's a clone. I personally think that Michael messed with his DNA to make him suceseptible to that mystery drug so that if he ever escaped he would die.

I'm glad we got to see the Athosians and that they got recued! That was great. What happend with Halling? He looks so different now? I'm assuming that the actor changed his hair in all those years but I wish we got some explantation about why he looked different.

I'm surprised how it turned out. Personally, I tought that Beckett would end up captured by Michael when he went on the mission to that planet.

I am however a bit disappointed that they left us with the feeling that he's a clone especially because Joe Mallozzi and everyone else in the show promised that he wouldn't be a clone.

A very cool episode. Next week's looks like there more to it than just Sheppard in the future. I wonder what that battle will be about.

Vala,

Yashiv
February 29th, 2008, 07:06 PM
I'm disappointed. When is S5 scheduled to start? MORE CARSON!!!!!

KindlyKeller
February 29th, 2008, 07:07 PM
I was surprised but glad to see they didn't get Teyla back. Good suspense for Season 5. Also, the final scene with Beckett going into the stasis pod was surprisingly emotional.

Shan Bruce Lee
February 29th, 2008, 07:07 PM
I thought it was an amazing episode

IMForeman
February 29th, 2008, 07:08 PM
4 ways to save Carson, just off the top of my head.

1.) This problem with the Carson Clone is similar to the Teenage O'Neill's degradation in "Fragile Balance." So, they should consult the interactive Asgard program for how they stabilized that clone.

2.) Tretonin. Works for the Jaffa, and it works for the Pangarans. Might give Carson2 a new lease on life.

3.) Tok'ra Symbiote. Not ideal, but it would probably do the trick.

4.) Sarcophagus. Yeah, overuse of the device is asking for trouble, but using it once never seemed to cause permanent problems.

Seems like they should investigate these.

Infernorhythm
February 29th, 2008, 07:08 PM
Great episode. Brilliant ending. The Ronon/Beckett scene was surprisingly touching.

Michael's Athosian/Wraith Hybrids are WEAK! The Vengeance Monsters were a lot tougher than them and they didn't need P90s to fight. Where the heck are they?

And Halling's back! If only Todd was also in the episode, then it would have been really cool.

I'm so bummed the season is ending next week.

GateLadyM
February 29th, 2008, 07:09 PM
Was very good compared to the rest of the season, but Carson back just showed how pitiful Keller is. Where Carson is so vibrant, Keller is so wooden and boring. Hard to believe TPTB chose to make her a reg next year and give Carson just a few episodes.

I'm depressed. :(

YouthAndBeautyBrigade
February 29th, 2008, 07:13 PM
i thought the whole clone thing was a little weak. most people here guessed everything to do with his capture, ect. i was waiting for something that i never would have thought of. also, there's absolutely no way to have a clone think, act, and have the memories of the original. and how do they explain it? "Michael's really smart".

but honestly, i don't really care about that. i'm just glad he's back.

KindlyKeller
February 29th, 2008, 07:13 PM
Was very good compared to the rest of the season, but Carson back just showed how pitiful Keller is. Where Carson is so vibrant, Keller is so wooden and boring. Hard to believe TPTB chose to make her a reg next year and give Carson just a few episodes.

I'm depressed. :(

I think that might just be your sadness about Beckett talking. Keller was great tonight, I thought. I also thought Paul delivered big time in his comeback episode. He was fantastic in that final scene.

reddevil18
February 29th, 2008, 07:13 PM
Hmmm...I...didn't love it. Good episode, but...meh...I don't know.
The clone thing was somewhat obvious since we learned that Michael had him, we just didn't know which one was the clone.
It was good to see Halling again...with less hair...:D
And Carson + Keller would make a good team...
The ending was really touching...I like the Rodney-Carson interaction very much. And Ronon hugging him...:ronan:
But, I gotta tell ya, I just didn't love it. I don't know why. Once again, the best part was the promo for The Last Man...

Shan Bruce Lee
February 29th, 2008, 07:14 PM
4 ways to save Carson, just off the top of my head.

[QUOTE=IMForeman;7823210]1.) This problem with the Carson Clone is similar to the Teenage O'Neill's degradation in "Fragile Balance." So, they should consult the interactive Asgard program for how they stabilized that clone.

It might seem like the same thing but it's not. I'm not saying the Asgard knowledge won't help but it's not gauranteed


2.) Tretonin. Works for the Jaffa, and it works for the Pangarans. Might give Carson2 a new lease on life.

Tretonin replaces the immune system. This problem has nothing to do with that because it's not a regeneration problem.


3.) Tok'ra Symbiote. Not ideal, but it would probably do the trick.

Same thing as Tretonin.


4.) Sarcophagus. Yeah, overuse of the device is asking for trouble, but using it once never seemed to cause permanent problems.

Seems like they should investigate these.

I'm really not sure if that would work or not but I don't think so.

Arative
February 29th, 2008, 07:14 PM
I thought it was fairly good episode. It was good to see Holling again, if for nothing else continuity.

Scene's between Mckay and Beckett I thought were really good. Specially when Mckay was telling Beckett that Beckett died.

I thought though that it was suppose to be the real Beckett and not a clone or an alt reality or anything like that. Although I guess we could find out in a season 5 that he is the real one and the clone was the one that died in Sunday.

jenks
February 29th, 2008, 07:16 PM
Decent episode, better than last weeks, but below average compared to the rest of the season imo...

Blistna
February 29th, 2008, 07:16 PM
Loved this episode...i don't know who they have in tptb, but man are they doing some good crap.


4 ways to save Carson, just off the top of my head.

1.) This problem with the Carson Clone is similar to the Teenage O'Neill's degradation in "Fragile Balance." So, they should consult the interactive Asgard program for how they stabilized that clone.

2.) Tretonin. Works for the Jaffa, and it works for the Pangarans. Might give Carson2 a new lease on life.

3.) Tok'ra Symbiote. Not ideal, but it would probably do the trick.

4.) Sarcophagus. Yeah, overuse of the device is asking for trouble, but using it once never seemed to cause permanent problems.

Seems like they should investigate these.

I think it's not something easy, I think Micheal did something purposely to make this happen. Insurance on he wont cause trouble for wrong. We have to figure out what he did to him, then we can figure how to fix it.

And I am not sure the options 2-4 would work. But it would be work a try...besides the tok'ra. you can reverse it that easy.

Shan Bruce Lee
February 29th, 2008, 07:17 PM
i thought the whole clone thing was a little weak. most people here guessed everything to do with his capture, ect. i was waiting for something that i never would have thought of. also, there's absolutely no way to have a clone think, act, and have the memories of the original. and how do they explain it? "Michael's really smart".

but honestly, i don't really care about that. i'm just glad he's back.

It's probably something similar to genetic memories. He obviously used some really advanced cloning technology because Carson is fully grown.

Yashiv
February 29th, 2008, 07:17 PM
I thought though that it was suppose to be the real Beckett and not a clone or an alt reality or anything like that. Although I guess we could find out in a season 5 that he is the real one and the clone was the one that died in Sunday.

There's actually a discussion about that in the live discussion thread. Something about Joseph M. being misquoted about CArson's return.

DarkAngel34994
February 29th, 2008, 07:18 PM
Not a bad episode, but not my favorite. I kept switching back and forth from this and something else I was watching. Next week though looks great.

reddevil18
February 29th, 2008, 07:21 PM
There's actually a discussion about that in the live discussion thread. Something about Joseph M. being misquoted about CArson's return.

Yes, I'm pretty sure that he said that it would be "Carson in the flesh", nothing more...

IMForeman
February 29th, 2008, 07:22 PM
It might seem like the same thing but it's not. I'm not saying the Asgard knowledge won't help but it's not gauranteed

You don't know that it's not. The presentation is remarkably similar. The major systems in KidJack were shutting down. He didn't feel anything initially, but the degradation was making itself known in about a week. It could have been the same problem. Loki wasn't concerned with making a permanant Clone, so he may not have done whatever it is to the clones that corrects this problem (probably something to do with Telomerase, which relengthens telomeres).


Tretonin replaces the immune system. This problem has nothing to do with that because it's not a regeneration problem.

Same thing as Tretonin.

In both instances we know that Tretonin and Tok'ra Symbiotes lengthen the lifespan and correct problems that are nothing to do with the immune system. Tok'ra symbiotes have healed cancer, wounds and suppressed a complete systemic failure of the body's organs in the case of Charlie (the clone boy the Re'tu made).

None of those have anything to do with the immune system which merely fights off infectious agents.


I'm really not sure if that would work or not but I don't think so.

Sarcophagi have healed everything including actual death... why on Earth would this not work?

AGateFan
February 29th, 2008, 07:24 PM
Well, I had some very low expectations so I am fairly happy with the episode. They didnt ruin the Carson character and no replicators were involved ...Yay and even gave him a Garabaldi/Bester type of thing with Micheal..... though I was hopping for a reveal where we learned that the one that had been killed had been a clone, but what-can-you-do.

I liked the fact that Carter and Shep were never 100% trusting. Though I thought it seemed like his gaurds were not always present. I feel sorry for the character, but he didnt feel sorry for himself (for too long) and I like that.

I was suprised that Teyla was not rescued in this ep (having seen no spoilers). I was also suprised that any of the Anthosians made it out of this alive. So I guess it gets points for surpising me.

I still hate baby plot. Though I am interested in seeing the "creation" over coming the creator plot that is sure to come with Teylas boyfriend. Maybe Carson can get some ex psi-corp person to remove his block and shoot Micheal himself...that would be kind of cool (but a bit out of character).

Please tell me they didnt send the wraith worshiper to the Milky Way? Oh well, I guess the wraith already know the galaxy is there so as long as they keep this guy on some empty planet somplace he shouldnt cause many problems.

I thought everyone did a good job. It was a fine ep. Though I am sure someone will point out the plot holes for me to think about later. I was into the show enough I didnt notice. I did think the ep was a bit slow though.

Renenutet
February 29th, 2008, 07:25 PM
I was disappointed in him being a clone and normally I don't get mad at tv shows but this episode pissed me off. We were basically guaranteed the 'original' Carson and we get a clone that's falling apart. I can see why next season will only be 5 episodes. They're bring him out of stasis, try to repair and fail a few times and the last one will be a success and he'll go home to his family for the rest of the season.

Briangate78
February 29th, 2008, 07:26 PM
This episode was filled with emotions. They brought up the past and how Carson returned was very well written. I can accept a clone, because it's an exact copy. He is Carson Beckett there is nothing short of that, well once he gets the drug to cure him of course. I loved the mention of Weir in the beginning and Carson's reaction to her death. Was amazing how they took this episode to the next level of the series.

Rodney was awesome in this episode. I never ever felt so of Rodney for what he was doing. Just like how Sheppard was willing to accept a cloned Weir, Mckay has no issues accepting Carson. Like he said it's this or death.

The last scene with Carson saying goodbye was enough to make the strongest man in the world shed a tear. It was just so powerful, imo. The rest of the team had basically accepted this Carson. It's the real deal. Flesh and Blood. This is good SCI FI right here. Oh rememeber a little show called Farscape.

I also loved seeing Carson and Keller working together, hopefully this will be a preview for Season 5! :)

Don't even get me started with the Teyla and her people story. More emotions going back and forth. Also, Teyla seemed to have gotten through to Kanaan. Is there hope? Wow!

Carson Beckett has returned, and this show just got even better!

Ltcolshepjumper
February 29th, 2008, 07:26 PM
I liked this episode. Clearly, Kindred pt 1 and 2 were not action heavy episodes, but rather two set up episodes, one for Teyla, the other for Beckett. Hopefully we'll see more of Michael in the future. the stasis scene at the end reminded me of Before I Sleep from season 1.

siXbrownSnakes2
February 29th, 2008, 07:26 PM
Stargate doesn't have too many emotionally touching episodes, so this was definitely a change of pace. I really enjoyed the episode though. Paul gave a great performance and as much as I wish he were coming back full time, I can't let that detract from the enjoyment of this episode. That ending scene was one of the best the show has done, and it will be interesting to find out how he's cured :)

Shan Bruce Lee
February 29th, 2008, 07:27 PM
You don't know that it's not. The presentation is remarkably similar. The major systems in KidJack were shutting down. He didn't feel anything initially, but the degradation was making itself known in about a week. It could have been the same problem. Loki wasn't concerned with making a permanant Clone, so he may not have done whatever it is to the clones that corrects this problem (probably something to do with Telomerase, which relengthens telomeres).



In both instances we know that Tretonin and Tok'ra Symbiotes lengthen the lifespan and correct problems that are nothing to do with the immune system. Tok'ra symbiotes have healed cancer, wounds and suppressed a complete systemic failure of the body's organs in the case of Charlie (the clone boy the Re'tu made).

None of those have anything to do with the immune system which merely fights off infectious agents.



Sarcophagi have healed everything including actual death... why on Earth would this not work?

I said immune system and regeneration. Not just the immune system. Carson's problem was in his DNA. Tretonin or a symbiote won't change that.

Same thing with a Sarcophagus (sp?) it might prolong his life, I have no idea about that. But I'm pretty sure it won't correct the problem permanently.

cabouse18
February 29th, 2008, 07:30 PM
Well, I had some very low expectations so I am fairly happy with the episode. They didnt ruin the Carson character and no replicators were involved ...Yay and even gave him a Garabaldi/Bester type of thing with Micheal..... though I was hopping for a reveal where we learned that the one that had been killed had been a clone, but what-can-you-do.

I liked the fact that Carter and Shep were never 100% trusting. Though I thought it seemed like his gaurds were not always present. I feel sorry for the character, but he didnt feel sorry for himself (for too long) and I like that.

I was suprised that Teyla was not rescued in this ep (having seen no spoilers). I was also suprised that any of the Anthosians made it out of this alive. So I guess it gets points for surpising me.

I still hate baby plot. Though I am interested in seeing the "creation" over coming the creator plot that is sure to come with Teylas boyfriend. Maybe Carson can get some ex psi-corp person to remove his block and shoot Micheal himself...that would be kind of cool (but a bit out of character).

Please tell me they didnt send the wraith worshiper to the Milky Way? Oh well, I guess the wraith already know the galaxy is there so as long as they keep this guy on some empty planet somplace he shouldnt cause many problems.

I thought everyone did a good job. It was a fine ep. Though I am sure someone will point out the plot holes for me to think about later. I was into the show enough I didnt notice. I did think the ep was a bit slow though.


Nah I just got the impression that they made the warith worshipper feel like he was in the Milky Way so he would talk. Nice tactic.

The baby plot...still bothers me too a little bit. It is getting a little overly dramatic in the department but I thought RL did a good job considering she shot this ep right before she popped!! Kudos to her on that. I wanna look that good when I am pregnant!

As for Kanan...dude is soooo gonna break free of the mind control and come to the self sacrificing rescue of Teyla and his kid!! Ya know it will happen....it happens in every show!! How they intend to deal with the baby is a whole other matter in my book. :S

Overall the ep was pretty good...it was definately moving and sad at times. Paul did a great with Carson. His and David's scenes were excellent.

Overall 7/10....more like a 6.5 but for Paul's great acting a 7!

jenks
February 29th, 2008, 07:31 PM
I said immune system and regeneration. Not just the immune system. Carson's problem was in his DNA. Tretonin or a symbiote won't change that.

Same thing with a Sarcophagus (sp?) it might prolong his life, I have no idea about that. But I'm pretty sure it won't correct the problem permanently.

Oh I don't know, didn't it turn Jack back into a human when Hathor made him a Jaffa?

ToasterOnFire
February 29th, 2008, 07:32 PM
Sooo...how exactly does a clone get all of Carson's memories and personality? You can't get that from DNA or anything that could be drawn or scanned. *insert desperate SF handwaving*

The telomere stuff is legit. Also nice to hear about primers refusing to anneal to DNA for amplification. These guys are supposedly smart enough and have Ancient tech so they should have been able to get around it and amplify the DNA to manufacture the wraith enzyme in Carson, but whatever. ;)

I'm rather disappointed with Teyla's "arc" - she spent most of the time dragged around or tied up or pleading with Kanaan. I was hoping she would have been more defiant and actually done something.

TPTB would be wise in the future to not stick Carson and Keller in scenes together. It shows how much of a poor substitute she's been. ;)

The final scene with Carson was nice but felt over the top for me, like TPTB were trying to make up for how he went out in Sunday. Look, now he gets a touching farewell with just about everyone!

Good ep overall though. Might post more later.

Shan Bruce Lee
February 29th, 2008, 07:34 PM
Oh I don't know, didn't it turn Jack back into a human when Hathor made him a Jaffa?

I still don't know. It might have healed his "pouch" and regenerated his immune system but was there any alterations to his DNA in that?

Briangate78
February 29th, 2008, 07:34 PM
Stargate doesn't have too many emotionally touching episodes, so this was definitely a change of pace. I really enjoyed the episode though. Paul gave a great performance and as much as I wish he were coming back full time, I can't let that detract from the enjoyment of this episode. That ending scene was one of the best the show has done, and it will be interesting to find out how he's cured :)

The last scene just raised the bar for the show. It was really touching and powerful. I was expecting a strong emotional episode, I got even more from what I expected.

The mention of Weir just put butterflies in my stomach, and seeing Carson's reaction to the news!

AGateFan
February 29th, 2008, 07:35 PM
Oh and didnt Carson say he felt like a dogs breakfast when he was in the hospital. Is that a common phase or was that some type of wink and nod at that independant film Hewlett made......or did I completly mis-hear that line?

FoolishPleasure
February 29th, 2008, 07:36 PM
The last scene with Carson saying goodbye was enough to make the strongest man in the world shed a tear. It was just so powerful, imo.

And that's the difference between Carson and Keller. Carson brought tears to my eyes, but Keller is as interesting as a brick. Whichever PTB who thought Keller was better than Carson, needs to have their head on a stick.

This does get a thumbs up from me, for a change, because there was so much emotion and caring between the "old" team.

One thing did irritate me - Teyla, who finally realized her child comes FIRST over this season, wants to stay for her zombie boyfriend, putting her child right in Michael's hands. Give me a break - totally OOC.

What I would have loved to see would have been Halling and Todd both in this episode. Would have been nice to see Christopher Heyerdahl doing both in one eppy.

Briangate78
February 29th, 2008, 07:36 PM
Sooo...how exactly does a clone get all of Carson's memories and personality? You can't get that from DNA or anything that could be drawn or scanned. *insert desperate SF handwaving*

The telomere stuff is legit. Also nice to hear about primers refusing to anneal to DNA for amplification. These guys are supposedly smart enough and have Ancient tech so they should have been able to get around it and amplify the DNA to manufacture the wraith enzyme in Carson, but whatever. ;)

I'm rather disappointed with Teyla's "arc" - she spent most of the time dragged around or tied up or pleading with Kanaan. I was hoping she would have been more defiant and actually done something.

TPTB would be wise in the future to not stick Carson and Keller in scenes together. It shows how much of a poor substitute she's been. ;)

The final scene with Carson was nice but felt over the top for me, like TPTB were trying to make up for how he went out in Sunday. Look, now he gets a touching farewell with just about everyone!

Good ep overall though. Might post more later.

It worked in "Farscape"! :p Great story arc btw. LOL "Eat Me"! :D The only thing about the Teyla arc that concerns me is the baby's fate. I loved how her people were saved and Kanaan was actually considering freeing Teyla. Like she was getting through to him. We just have to see how it plays out next season.

Hopefully you'll still be watching. :p

Shan Bruce Lee
February 29th, 2008, 07:37 PM
Sooo...how exactly does a clone get all of Carson's memories and personality? You can't get that from DNA or anything that could be drawn or scanned. *insert desperate SF handwaving*


Jack's clone had all of his memories too. I still think it's something to do with genetic memories but at least they're being consistant about it.

jenks
February 29th, 2008, 07:38 PM
I still don't know. It might have healed his "pouch" and regenerated his immune system but was there any alterations to his DNA in that?

I'm not sure, I'd have thought so. Without changes to his DNA the pouch would be no more than a wound, I doubt he would be able to function as a Jaffa without some changes being made...

IMForeman
February 29th, 2008, 07:38 PM
I said immune system and regeneration. Not just the immune system. Carson's problem was in his DNA. Tretonin or a symbiote won't change that.

Same thing with a Sarcophagus (sp?) it might prolong his life, I have no idea about that. But I'm pretty sure it won't correct the problem permanently.

No, Carson's problems were his telomeres, which are a chemical protein sheath on the ends of chromosomes. As we get older, the telomeres shorten and our cells start to have problems reproducing themselves. This is called senescence. It's also called ageing. The problem is cellular, not genetic.

Dolly, the Scottish sheep that was the first confirmed clone in the real world suffered from "old genes" as well. She was cloned from a six year old sheep and was essentially born with six year old genes. Consequently, she only lived 6 years... about half the lifespan of an average sheep.

Carson's genes were taken from a man in his 30s, so he was born with 30something year old genes. The acceleration technique that Michael used must have exacerbated that. Though Carson looks the age his original was, his cells are all approaching sencesence... it's like he's really old.

And all the things that I mentioned suppress aging problems, so all of them should be able to help. Obviously the Tretonin would be a lifelong requirement, just like it is for Teal'c, but the Tok'ra symbiote should be able to give him a reasonably normal lifespan.

Briangate78
February 29th, 2008, 07:39 PM
And that's the difference between Carson and Keller. Carson brought tears to my eyes, but Keller is as interesting as a brick. Whoever thought Keller was better than Carson, needs to have their head on a stick.

This does get a thumbs up from me, for a change, because there was so much emotion and caring between the "old" team.

One thing did irritate me - Teyla, who finally realized her child comes FIRST over this season, wants to stay for her zombie boyfriend, putting her child right in Michael's hands. Give me a break - totally OOC.

What I would have loved to see would have been Halling and Todd both in this episode. Would have been nice to see Christopher Heyerdahl doing both in one eppy.

I liked the compassion from Keller. When she said she will do everything to find a cure. I think it was well done. They truly had good chemistry. But I agree Carson needs to be in this show, he is truly the "Heart of Atlantis" and without him the show would be missing a big piece.

Shan Bruce Lee
February 29th, 2008, 07:42 PM
No, Carson's problems were his telomeres, which are a chemical protein sheath on the ends of chromosomes. As we get older, the telomeres shorten and our cells start to have problems reproducing themselves. This is called senescence. It's also called ageing. The problem is cellular, not genetic.

Dolly, the Scottish sheep that was the first confirmed clone in the real world suffered from "old genes" as well. She was cloned from a six year old sheep and was essentially born with six year old genes. Consequently, she only lived 6 years... about half the lifespan of an average sheep.

Carson's genes were taken from a man in his 30s, so he was born with 30something year old genes. The acceleration technique that Michael used must have exacerbated that. Though Carson looks the age his original was, his cells are all approaching sencesence... it's like he's really old.

And all the things that I mentioned suppress aging problems, so all of them should be able to help. Obviously the Tretonin would be a lifelong requirement, just like it is for Teal'c, but the Tok'ra symbiote should be able to give him a reasonably normal lifespan.

Well the sarcophagus doesn't stop aging either. Maybe Tretonin or a symbiote would help with that but I don't see it happening.

Shan Bruce Lee
February 29th, 2008, 07:43 PM
I'm not sure, I'd have thought so. Without changes to his DNA the pouch would be no more than a wound, I doubt he would be able to function as a Jaffa without some changes being made...

It's probably got something to do with cauterizing the wound or something like that. I'm just speculating on all this stuff anyway so who knows.

ToasterOnFire
February 29th, 2008, 07:44 PM
Jack's clone had all of his memories too. I still think it's something to do with genetic memories but at least they're being consistant about it.
I'm assuming the concept of "genetic memories" is something purely fictional in the Stargate universe and not something TPTB are even trying to pass off as legit science?

GateLadyM
February 29th, 2008, 07:45 PM
I liked the compassion from Keller. When she said she will do everything to find a cure. I think it was well done. They truly had good chemistry. But I agree Carson needs to be in this show, he is truly the "Heart of Atlantis" and without him the show would be missing a big piece.

I didn't see any compassion from Keller. She was her usual monotone self, except when she is whining about something (like not being invited to parties).

Briangate78
February 29th, 2008, 07:45 PM
I'm assuming the concept of "genetic memories" is something purely fictional in the Stargate universe and not something TPTB are even trying to pass off as legit science?

Didn't the Goa'uld pass on "Genetic memories" ?

IMForeman
February 29th, 2008, 07:46 PM
Well the sarcophagus doesn't stop aging either. Maybe Tretonin or a symbiote would help with that but I don't see it happening.

Yeah... it does. The Goa'uld use the sarcophagi to extend their lifespans far beyond what the symbiote alone could do. That's why the Tok'ra go through hosts (average lifespan of about 200 or so) and the Goa'uld hang on to theirs for thousands. The Tok'ra hosts age, just far slower, while the Goa'uld hosts don't change much at all. Of course, the Goa'uld overuse the Sarcophagi, causing insanity and evil. But it does make them last much longer.

Shan Bruce Lee
February 29th, 2008, 07:46 PM
I'm assuming the concept of "genetic memories" is something purely fictional in the Stargate universe and not something TPTB are even trying to pass off as legit science?

lol isn't all of it?

Briangate78
February 29th, 2008, 07:46 PM
I didn't see any compassion from Keller. She was her usual monotone self, except when she is whining about something (like not being invited to parties).

She felt bad for Carson, and wanted to help find a cure. When he was weak she felt he should of been taking it easy.

Killdeer
February 29th, 2008, 07:46 PM
I'm assuming the concept of "genetic memories" is something purely fictional in the Stargate universe and not something TPTB are even trying to pass off as legit science?

Well I hadn't thought about it in relation to the clones, but "genetic memory" was first brought into the show with the Goa'uld back at the beginning of SG-1 - that they had genetic memory and were born with all the knowledge of the Goa'uld before them.

Shan Bruce Lee
February 29th, 2008, 07:48 PM
Didn't the Goa'uld pass on "Genetic memories" ?

Yeah and to the Har... harsee.... and even to the whats-it-called.

IMForeman
February 29th, 2008, 07:48 PM
I'm assuming the concept of "genetic memories" is something purely fictional in the Stargate universe and not something TPTB are even trying to pass off as legit science?

It's an old concept (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_memory), not inherent to the Stargate universe.

Ruffles
February 29th, 2008, 07:48 PM
I liked it. When I saw Chris H's name in the credits I was expecting Todd, so it was great to see Halling instead. SO glad the Athosians (the few left) have been found. I'm not surprised at Michael's plans for Teyla's baby. I'm just thrilled it's a regular-made baby (even if it has a double dose of Wraith DNA). I wonder if the baby is really "special" or if that's just Michael's insanity. In the generations of Athosians with The Gift, surely this isn't the first time 2 of them have made a baby.

Carson!! I wanted to hug him to pieces. I thought this was a brilliant ep for him and Paul M was OUTSTANDING! The scenes between him and Rodney were pure gold. I loved the explanation of how he was created (totally knew it!!), why he would help Michael, and why he wouldn't return to his duties.

That last scene almost killed me. In some ways I think it was sadder than Sunday. Everything about it was perfect - asking Sam to get the letter to his mother (some things he never said and should have) and having John promise to get Teyla back. Ronon though. Oh my. He's been not speaking to Beckett because he was afraid to lose him again. And the hug! It takes a lot to make me cry but that did. I still find it amazing that Ronon is the most emotionally open of the group. From him to Rodney who can't stop talking. No goodbye. Not even a handshake. Poor Rodney. Having to relive it again after having to explain what happened to the original Carson and to Weir. *hugs Rodney*


Wow! First post!

What tense episode! So is Dr. Beckett real or a clone? I don't believe he's a clone. I personally think that Michael messed with his DNA to make him suceseptible to that mystery drug so that if he ever escaped he would die.

I'm glad we got to see the Athosians and that they got recued! That was great. What happend with Halling? He looks so different now? I'm assuming that the actor changed his hair in all those years but I wish we got some explantation about why he looked different.

I'm surprised how it turned out. Personally, I tought that Beckett would end up captured by Michael when he went on the mission to that planet.

I am however a bit disappointed that they left us with the feeling that he's a clone especially because Joe Mallozzi and everyone else in the show promised that he wouldn't be a clone.

A very cool episode. Next week's looks like there more to it than just Sheppard in the future. I wonder what that battle will be about.

Vala,


I was disappointed in him being a clone and normally I don't get mad at tv shows but this episode pissed me off. We were basically guaranteed the 'original' Carson and we get a clone that's falling apart. I can see why next season will only be 5 episodes. They're bring him out of stasis, try to repair and fail a few times and the last one will be a success and he'll go home to his family for the rest of the season.

I'm not sure where this idea came from that he would be the original/not a clone. JM said he wouldn't be a replicator or alternate reality or time travel. He never said he wouldn't be a clone.

My only quibble is, as toaster commented, on him having the original Carson's memories. The closest I can come (and it's weak - REALLY weak) is that Michael has a mental ability to "copy" a mind (aging myself here but sorta like Spock putting his mind in McCoy in ST 2 movie). Hey, I said it was weak.


I was surprised but glad to see they didn't get Teyla back. Good suspense for Season 5. Also, the final scene with Beckett going into the stasis pod was surprisingly emotional.

I totally agree.

FoolishPleasure
February 29th, 2008, 07:48 PM
I liked the compassion from Keller. When she said she will do everything to find a cure. I think it was well done. They truly had good chemistry.

Chemistry? She just wanted to stick Beckett in the freezer when she couldn't figure out what to do, but Carson showed his true character by wanting to keep with it and find a cure, plus he went to help Teyla, knowing he might not make it back. That's the difference between them. Keller just takes the easy way out. She could try smiling once in awhile too. It won't crack her face if she did.

prion
February 29th, 2008, 07:49 PM
Seeing Carson back was fantastic! The scenes between him and McKay were great, and well, geez, what the hell were they thinking when they blew him up? I don't mind the faux one as the set-up was done believably, and I guess I'll have to just atke a sci-fi excuse for the clone having all the memories... *cough*.

cabouse18
February 29th, 2008, 07:50 PM
Yeah and to the Har... harsee.... and even to the whats-it-called.

Harcisis..I think is how it is spelled??? IDK but I know what you are talking about.;)

Killdeer
February 29th, 2008, 07:50 PM
Yeah and to the Har... harsee.... and even to the whats-it-called.

Harcesis - a human with the genetic memory of the Goa'uld.

Jonas
February 29th, 2008, 07:51 PM
Genetic memory was also used in Alien:Resurrection with the clone of Ripley, though there were gaps in that memory, plus she was a human/alien hybrid.


Good episode tonight, great to see Carson back in the fold. Loved his scenes with McKay. Now if we could just get Weir back....

Briangate78
February 29th, 2008, 07:52 PM
Chemistry? She just wanted to stick Beckett in the freezer when she couldn't figure out what to do, but Carson showed his true character by wanting to keep with it and find a cure, plus he went to help Teyla, knowing he might not make it back. That's the difference between them. Keller just takes the easy way out. She could try smiling once in awhile too. It won't crack her face if she did.

LOL, in the freezer. I hear where you are coming from. This ep was not exactly Keller's shining moment. But she really did show compassion and is willing to help and spend most of her time.

I just hope we get Carson for more than 5 eps next season. :)

jenks
February 29th, 2008, 07:52 PM
Chemistry? She just wanted to stick Beckett in the freezer when she couldn't figure out what to do, but Carson showed his true character by wanting to keep with it and find a cure, plus he went to help Teyla, knowing he might not make it back. That's the difference between them. Keller just takes the easy way out. She could try smiling once in awhile too. It won't crack her face if she did.

I think you've misunderstood the situation. Keller wanted to put Carson in stasis because she didn't think there was enough time to find a cure (she was right), she didn't want to risk his life when she didn't need to, like any good doctor. If the situation were reversed, Carson would have done the exact same thing.

FoolishPleasure
February 29th, 2008, 07:52 PM
Well I hadn't thought about it in relation to the clones, but "genetic memory" was first brought into the show with the Goa'uld back at the beginning of SG-1 - that they had genetic memory and were born with all the knowledge of the Goa'uld before them.

That was the Harsisis child, who had two Gou'ald parents. That child had all the knowledge of the Apophis/Sha're/Gou'alds, which was why Michael wants Teyla/Kanaan's superbaby. . oops, which is why the Ancients kidnapped it. *LOL* I hate it when I mix up different shows. ;)

Shan Bruce Lee
February 29th, 2008, 07:53 PM
Harcisis..I think is how it is spelled??? IDK but I know what you are talking about.;)

Thanks.


Harcesis - a human with the genetic memory of the Goa'uld.

Thanks.

cabouse18
February 29th, 2008, 07:53 PM
That was the Harsisis child, who had two Gou'ald parents. That child had all the knowledge of the Apophis/Sha're/Gou'alds, which was why Michael wants Teyla/Kanaan's superbaby. . oops, which is why the Ancients kidnapped it. *LOL* I hate it when I mix up different shows. ;)

:lol:

rarocks24
February 29th, 2008, 07:55 PM
The whole episode was fantastic, but...

Just a few issues

1) Dude who tried to ambush them (can't recall his name), he's going to Earth? Umm, what? We have no idea what Michael did to him genetically, are we really sure we want to be poisoning our own gene pool? Personally, I'd love to have Wraith DNA, but the whole losing my free will thing...
2) They didn't think to take a few stealth jumpers and target the cruiser's engines?

And major thing that didn't make sense,

Why didn't they use the Ancient modifier from Tao of Rodney to load a genetic profile of Carson to undo what Michael did to him?

Killdeer
February 29th, 2008, 07:56 PM
That was the Harsisis child, who had two Gou'ald parents. That child had all the knowledge of the Apophis/Sha're/Gou'alds,

Actually, all the Goa'uld have genetic memory - that was clearly stated at the beginning of SG-1.

the fifth man
February 29th, 2008, 07:56 PM
Seeing Carson again was really great. Clone or not, I've accepted him back. And it looks like the rest of the Atlantis team have as well. Ronon really surprised me with his reaction. He has really grown as a character.

I hope they can un-freeze Carson early on next season. It's just nice to have him back, even if it is just part-time.:)

IMForeman
February 29th, 2008, 07:57 PM
The whole episode was fantastic, but...

Just a few issues

1) Dude who tried to ambush them (can't recall his name), he's going to Earth? Umm, what? We have no idea what Michael did to him genetically, are we really sure we want to be poisoning our own gene pool? Personally, I'd love to have Wraith DNA, but the whole losing my free will thing...


We don't know he's going to Earth. He's going to the Milky Way. There are tons of worlds they could stick him on.

Shan Bruce Lee
February 29th, 2008, 07:59 PM
The whole episode was fantastic, but...

Just a few issues

1) Dude who tried to ambush them (can't recall his name), he's going to Earth? Umm, what? We have no idea what Michael did to him genetically, are we really sure we want to be poisoning our own gene pool? Personally, I'd love to have Wraith DNA, but the whole losing my free will thing...

Maybe Shep was thinkin about sending him somewhere else in the Milky Way. Like Maybourne's planet or something :)


And major thing that didn't make sense,

Why didn't they use the Ancient modifier from Tao of Rodney to load a genetic profile of Carson to undo what Michael did to him?

Oh yeah,yeah.. why didn't they-- I have no idea wtf you're talking about here. Could you explain that?

cabouse18
February 29th, 2008, 07:59 PM
The whole episode was fantastic, but...

Just a few issues

1) Dude who tried to ambush them (can't recall his name), he's going to Earth? Umm, what? We have no idea what Michael did to him genetically, are we really sure we want to be poisoning our own gene pool? Personally, I'd love to have Wraith DNA, but the whole losing my free will thing...
2) They didn't think to take a few stealth jumpers and target the cruiser's engines?

And major thing that didn't make sense,

Why didn't they use the Ancient modifier from Tao of Rodney to load a genetic profile of Carson to undo what Michael did to him?

All really good questions!!

They never took Nable to earth...I got the impression they made him think they would either take him there or that he was already there so they could get some info out of him. I doubt they were in any rush to further save his arse considering he tried to kill Keller and Teyla on New Athos and then the rest of them on the planet.

As for the jumpers....that would have made sense. It also would have made sense for more than ONE team to go on the mission considering this was Michael's stronghold and all! i mean you send four people into a heavily guarded building with the bad guy....that does not make any sense. I would have liked to have seen Lorne again.

FoolishPleasure
February 29th, 2008, 07:59 PM
Actually, all the Goa'uld have genetic memory - that was clearly stated at the beginning of SG-1.

Harcesis: the offspring of two Goa'uld hosts (a forbidden act), who contains all the genetic memory of the Goa'uld.

the fifth man
February 29th, 2008, 08:00 PM
We don't know he's going to Earth. He's going to the Milky Way. There are tons of worlds they could stick him on.

Yeah, like that frozen world SG-1 sent Anubis to in Season 8's "Lockdown".:)

dasNdanger
February 29th, 2008, 08:00 PM
Mixed feelings. The episode was very exciting, but I had family over watching, and was probably more worried about their reactions than my own. I must watch it again without distractions.

Off the top of my head...

1. Glad to see that Kannan is probably the father of the baby, and not some creepy thing Michael did to her.

2. Good to see Halling again, though it was at the sacrifice of Todd in this episode. Can't have everything, I guess.

3. A little disappointed that Carson is a clone. I was hoping he was the real deal, and the one killed in the explosion was the clone. But it makes sense this way, with Michael being like Dr. Frankenstein now.

4. Ronon saying good-bye to Carson - yeah, that one choked me up a bit. Really sweet.

That's all for now - my mind is still trying to get around the previews, and what might happen to my favorite life-sucker.

das

rarocks24
February 29th, 2008, 08:01 PM
We don't know he's going to Earth. He's going to the Milky Way. There are tons of worlds they could stick him on.

Keep your friends close and your enemies closer. The stargate is not protected on most other worlds, but on Earth, he'd kinda be trapped. Besides, if he had genetic modifications and he and the Goa'uld crossed paths...

No, if he went to the Milky Way, he'd have to stay on Earth. Frankly, I'd call up our dear friend Todd and see if he wanted to have lunch, but then, we'd have to assume that he might have the immunity to the feeding process now.

Killdeer
February 29th, 2008, 08:01 PM
Harcesis: the offspring of two Goa'uld hosts (a forbidden act), who contains all the genetic memory of the Goa'uld.

Right....I'm not arguing with that part. But the Goa'uld themselves also have genetic memory. All of them do. The Harcesis was forbidden because they didn't want to create a human with that same knowledge. Apophis just did it because he wanted a more powerful host.

ToasterOnFire
February 29th, 2008, 08:01 PM
lol isn't all of it?
Well no, plenty of the science they present is either legit or has a basis in legitimate scientific knowledge. Take the telomeres and cloning, for example. The idea that specific, individual memories are in any way genetic or otherwise reproducible has no scientific basis.


It's an old concept (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_memory), not inherent to the Stargate universe.
Interesting read, but the term "memory" in that article has a different meaning than the specific recollections of an individual.


Also, I laughed at how Keller recoiled from the injured fake Genii guy while Carson just kept on working trying to help him. Hopefully that will teach her how to be more impartial and focused as a doctor.

cabouse18
February 29th, 2008, 08:03 PM
Yeah, like that frozen world SG-1 sent Anubis to in Season 8's "Lockdown".:)

I could think of quite a few people they could send there ;)

prion
February 29th, 2008, 08:03 PM
The whole episode was fantastic, but...

Just a few issues

1) Dude who tried to ambush them (can't recall his name), he's going to Earth? Umm, what? We have no idea what Michael did to him genetically, are we really sure we want to be poisoning our own gene pool? Personally, I'd love to have Wraith DNA, but the whole losing my free will thing...
2) They didn't think to take a few stealth jumpers and target the cruiser's engines?

And major thing that didn't make sense,

Why didn't they use the Ancient modifier from Tao of Rodney to load a genetic profile of Carson to undo what Michael did to him?

Who said he was going to Earth? Milky Way, sure, but they could dump him on a planet with NO stargate.

Re point #2 - Well, duh, they Michael couldn't have gotten away with Teyla. Geez, read the script! ;)

Because the genetic modifier had a few bugs in it. And since they hired Jewel as a regular, there's no more room for regular cast members....

cabouse18
February 29th, 2008, 08:05 PM
Mixed feelings. The episode was very exciting, but I had family over watching, and was probably more worried about their reactions than my own. I must watch it again without distractions.

Off the top of my head...

1. Glad to see that Kannan is probably the father of the baby, and not some creepy thing Michael did to her.

2. Good to see Halling again, though it was at the sacrifice of Todd in this episode. Can't have everything, I guess.

3. A little disappointed that Carson is a clone. I was hoping he was the real deal, and the one killed in the explosion was the clone. But it makes sense this way, with Michael being like Dr. Frankenstein now.

4. Ronon saying good-bye to Carson - yeah, that one choked me up a bit. Really sweet.

That's all for now - my mind is still trying to get around the previews, and what might happen to my favorite life-sucker.

das

I still think this kid is Rosemary's baby! Either that or it is the second coming! Pick your poison;)

IMForeman
February 29th, 2008, 08:05 PM
Keep your friends close and your enemies closer. The stargate is not protected on most other worlds, but on Earth, he'd kinda be trapped. Besides, if he had genetic modifications and he and the Goa'uld crossed paths...

No, if he went to the Milky Way, he'd have to stay on Earth. Frankly, I'd call up our dear friend Todd and see if he wanted to have lunch, but then, we'd have to assume that he might have the immunity to the feeding process now.

The gates would be protected by the best possible system: he doesn't know any Milky Way addresses... and you'd never get one by random dialing.

They also can use a ship to put him on a planet with no gate.

jelgate
February 29th, 2008, 08:06 PM
Jelgate's Two Cents
I was a little disappointed. Part Two did not live up to all the hype that was given I loved part one but did not find this part as exciting as the first one. Don't get me wrong it was a good episode, but not as great as I had hoped. I guess that is my punishment for reading spoilers. Or it could be the fact that I like Teyla more than Becket. But as the content goes, it was all good, but the first had better quality. Now onto the review.

I can't help but love the team's concern and love for Beckett. They really care for him and want to do their best to save him. The scene where McKay and Beckett were discussing was very enjoyable and shows the unspoken friendship these two have. You could just see Beckett's heart sink when McKay told him about Weir's fate.

It was kind of obvious to the spoiler reading fans that Beckett's return was going to be a clone. Their were so many theories flying around, (some of them were very far fetch) it was pleasing to know the truth about what happened to our Scottish friend. It just goes to show that the simplest explanation is usually the right one. I kind of wish that the clone had died in Sunday and not the other way around, but I guess this scenario makes sense.

Why is it that sociopaths cause the most trouble? Michael is twisted sick man. But to be fair if people had messed with my DNA, I would be a little angry too. But he is resorting to practices that just are way out their. He is doing the exact same things to the Athosians that was done to him. I am little afraid what he is going to do to Teyla. Speaking of the Athosians, it was nice to see Hailing return and finally hear the whole story behind their disappearance. During Teyla's capture, you can see Kanaan almost able to break free of Michael’s control. I hope they build on that in future episodes.

The scene in the locker room was a little depressing. Seeing McKay have a hard time cope with Beckett's return was almost too much to bear. But I ask, what was the point of Beckett going offworld. That was always my biggest compliant about Beckett. He would go offworld. A civilian medical doctor should not go offworld no matter what.

We got some continuity in this episode. I know it was a big coincidence but it was nice to see the return of the Wraith Michael. worshiper. He is not very bright when it comes to shooting a P-90. I wonder if he has ever heard of aim. Maybe Ronon should teach him. He did shoot the Wraith worshiper with little effort.

Everything always has a disadvantage. I guess I was too naive to think their would be no consequences to Beckett being a clone. As you all know, sadly I was wrong. It makes sense from a writing point of view but I was still a little disappointed.

And on to the big fight between Michael and the expedition. It was interesting fight and really shows how smart Sheppard can be when he wants to. But at the same time it was a risky. If you forget Sheppard's plot shield, then you have to think Sheppard might have died if it was the wrong kind of gas.

Beckett you moron. What were you thinking running after Michael. You should have known by now that he put safeguards in his creations. Your partially to blame for allowing Michael to escape with Teyla. I am a little scared of what else he plans to do with Teyla. I did enjoy how Teyla was hesitant when she saw Beckett.

All the tiny faults of this episode are fixed with the scene at the end. It was so touching to see the expedition as they are forced to put Beckett in a stasis pod. You can see the old members on the verge of tears as they have to say goodbye to him one last time. It was just emotional note as we see the episode end with the stasis pod being activated. I close this review with a question. Why wouldn't Beckett want a reality with a tropical beach?
Only one more left:(

cabouse18
February 29th, 2008, 08:07 PM
Who said he was going to Earth? Milky Way, sure, but they could dump him on a planet with NO stargate.

Re point #2 - Well, duh, they Michael couldn't have gotten away with Teyla. Geez, read the script! ;)

Because the genetic modifier had a few bugs in it. And since they hired Jewel as a regular, there's no more room for regular cast members....


Sad but true answers :lol:

Ruffles
February 29th, 2008, 08:08 PM
The whole episode was fantastic, but...

Just a few issues

1) Dude who tried to ambush them (can't recall his name), he's going to Earth? Umm, what? We have no idea what Michael did to him genetically, are we really sure we want to be poisoning our own gene pool? Personally, I'd love to have Wraith DNA, but the whole losing my free will thing...

Sheppard suggested another galaxy. It doesn't mean that he meant the Milky Way (the Ori galaxy is nice this time of year) or that he'll actually follow through with it. They should drop the guy off on the nearest Wraith world. Better yet, keep him for the next time they need Todd's help and he gets hungry.


2) They didn't think to take a few stealth jumpers and target the cruiser's engines?

And if they missed or caused a chain reaction?


And major thing that didn't make sense,

Why didn't they use the Ancient modifier from Tao of Rodney to load a genetic profile of Carson to undo what Michael did to him?

The reason it worked in Tao was because Carson kept a sample of their blood. Why would they still have a sample of Carson's? He died a year earlier. They had medical charts to compare with but I doubt they still had blood samples.

FoolishPleasure
February 29th, 2008, 08:12 PM
Also, I laughed at how Keller recoiled from the injured fake Genii guy while Carson just kept on working trying to help him.

Maybe he didn't have current medical insurance. ;)

Its obvious by now that Keller is a totally substandard doctor. Hopefully that crack team she was talking about really can find a cure, so we can have our REAL doc back, and Keller can then have time to attend parties and flirt with all the dudes - on some other show.

cabouse18
February 29th, 2008, 08:12 PM
Jelgate's Two Cents
I was a little disappointed. Part Two did not live up to all the hype that was given I loved part one but did not find this part as exciting as the first one. Don't get me wrong it was a good episode, but not as great as I had hoped. I guess that is my punishment for reading spoilers. Or it could be the fact that I like Teyla more than Becket. But as the content goes, it was all good, but the first had better quality. Now onto the review.

I can't help but love the team's concern and love for Beckett. They really care for him and want to do their best to save him. The scene where McKay and Beckett were discussing was very enjoyable and shows the unspoken friendship these two have. You could just see Beckett's heart sink when McKay told him about Weir's fate.

It was kind of obvious to the spoiler reading fans that Beckett's return was going to be a clone. Their were so many theories flying around, (some of them were very far fetch) it was pleasing to know the truth about what happened to our Scottish friend. It just goes to show that the simplest explanation is usually the right one. I kind of wish that the clone had died in Sunday and not the other way around, but I guess this scenario makes sense.

Why is it that sociopaths cause the most trouble? Michael is twisted sick man. But to be fair if people had messed with my DNA, I would be a little angry too. But he is resorting to practices that just are way out their. He is doing the exact same things to the Athosians that was done to him. I am little afraid what he is going to do to Teyla. Speaking of the Athosians, it was nice to see Hailing return and finally hear the whole story behind their disappearance. During Teyla's capture, you can see Kanaan almost able to break free of Michael’s control. I hope they build on that in future episodes.

The scene in the locker room was a little depressing. Seeing McKay have a hard time cope with Beckett's return was almost too much to bear. But I ask, what was the point of Beckett going offworld. That was always my biggest compliant about Beckett. He would go offworld. A civilian medical doctor should not go offworld no matter what.

We got some continuity in this episode. I know it was a big coincidence but it was nice to see the return of the Wraith Michael. worshiper. He is not very bright when it comes to shooting a P-90. I wonder if he has ever heard of aim. Maybe Ronon should teach him. He did shoot the Wraith worshiper with little effort.

Everything always has a disadvantage. I guess I was too naive to think their would be no consequences to Beckett being a clone. As you all know, sadly I was wrong. It makes sense from a writing point of view but I was still a little disappointed.

And on to the big fight between Michael and the expedition. It was interesting fight and really shows how smart Sheppard can be when he wants to. But at the same time it was a risky. If you forget Sheppard's plot shield, then you have to think Sheppard might have died if it was the wrong kind of gas.

Beckett you moron. What were you thinking running after Michael. You should have known by now that he put safeguards in his creations. Your partially to blame for allowing Michael to escape with Teyla. I am a little scared of what else he plans to do with Teyla. I did enjoy how Teyla was hesitant when she saw Beckett.

All the tiny faults of this episode are fixed with the scene at the end. It was so touching to see the expedition as they are forced to put Beckett in a stasis pod. You can see the old members on the verge of tears as they have to say goodbye to him one last time. It was just emotional note as we see the episode end with the stasis pod being activated. I close this review with a question. Why wouldn't Beckett want a reality with a tropical beach?
Only one more left:(

I am telling ya that guy is going to break free of the mind control and do the whole macho self scarificing deal to save Teyla and their kid....see it coming....Been done in other shows.

Great review :D

KindlyKeller
February 29th, 2008, 08:17 PM
Chemistry? She just wanted to stick Beckett in the freezer when she couldn't figure out what to do, but Carson showed his true character by wanting to keep with it and find a cure, plus he went to help Teyla, knowing he might not make it back. That's the difference between them. Keller just takes the easy way out. She could try smiling once in awhile too. It won't crack her face if she did.

Poor Keller; she can't catch a break. Keller's suggestion to put him in stasis -- that's called COMPASSION, as opposed to, "Sure, why don't you kill yourself when chances of finding a cure in the next 12 hours are NIL."

prion
February 29th, 2008, 08:19 PM
Maybe he didn't have current medical insurance. ;)

Its obvious by now that Keller is a totally substandard doctor. Hopefully that crack team she was talking about really can find a cure, so we can have our REAL doc back, and Keller can then have time to attend parties and flirt with all the dudes - on some other show.

Bwaha! no medical insurance, no treatment! Alas, so true in some places....

I can see why Keller would recoil at the man who tried to KILL her, but she is a doctor, did take the Hippocratic oath and you don't get to play God on who will live or die in the OR, unless it's a triage situation, and that sure wasn't. It's a flaw of the writing in many tv shows that to bolster one character, another gets lessened, and they did it here (but I was so happy to see Carson I just forgot about Keller for the most part). If they're going to keep Kelelr as a regular, they've GOT to bolster her self-esteem some more.

The Carson-McKay scenes were the highlight.

rarocks24
February 29th, 2008, 08:21 PM
Sheppard suggested another galaxy. It doesn't mean that he meant the Milky Way (the Ori galaxy is nice this time of year) or that he'll actually follow through with it. They should drop the guy off on the nearest Wraith world. Better yet, keep him for the next time they need Todd's help and he gets hungry.



And if they missed or caused a chain reaction?



The reason it worked in Tao was because Carson kept a sample of their blood. Why would they still have a sample of Carson's? He died a year earlier. They had medical charts to compare with but I doubt they still had blood samples.

Research. A fair amount of DNA is stored on the shelves quite often (Sperm Banks one such example, I think they also keep DNA to compare too in the military, but I'm not sure about that so...). Atlantis also has the storage capacity for all of Atlantis's staff, I doubt they'd just go and throw perfectly good blood away, particularly in the case that someone was critically injured and they needed a transfusion. Carson seems like that kind of guy.

The truth is, they just didn't want to restore Carson in the episode. That's all that's to it. But a good deal.

And yes, the device has a few crickets in it's systems, but Carson's dying anyways, I'd rather take the chance and live then to go into cold storage.

And besides, I'd rather see that person sit in one of our oh so hospitable jails on Earth than anywhere else in the Milky Way or Pegasus. But Atlantis's brig seems fair enough for me.

Wilson3Girl
February 29th, 2008, 08:26 PM
I can't help but love the team's concern and love for Beckett. They really care for him and want to do their best to save him. The scene where McKay and Beckett were discussing was very enjoyable and shows the unspoken friendship these two have. You could just see Beckett's heart sink when McKay told him about Weir's fate.

Yes, and Rodney's face when he realized that he was going to have to tell him that Elizabeth had died. Also, Carson's realization that his mother had been told that he died. Great acting from Paul and David there.

The stasis scene was almost unbearable to watch. :( They all finally got to say their goodbyes. Rodney couldn't even do it----just said see ya later----"like we said" and Carson's confusion at that.......and Rodney's nervous chattering and refusing to believe that Carson is going away/dying again and Shep's expression watching Rodney----he knows that Rodney is hanging on by a thread emotionally. Big lump in my throat over that entire scene.

I found the scenes with Michael and Teyla in the lab. realllllly disturbing. I started looking at the book that I read during commercials because I couldn't stand to see it. <shudders> I was so happy to hear that strong heartbeat from Teyla's baby and then Michael went for the syringe.....couldn't watch. Gave me the heebie jeebies.

Another great moment was when the team entered the lab. and found the table and syringe. Rodney, terrified that Michael has harmed Teyla, motioned to all of the equipment and said to Shep and Ronon, "Do you think Teyla?" and Shep yelled, "No I don't think! And neither do you!" He's scared too. I love when the writers show that he can be afraid.....his voice held real dread and fear there. Good stuff!

Wilson3Girl

jelgate
February 29th, 2008, 08:30 PM
I am telling ya that guy is going to break free of the mind control and do the whole macho self scarificing deal to save Teyla and their kid....see it coming....Been done in other shows.
Thats within the realm of possibility. I would like to see a struggle between Micheal's control and his own mind It won't happen but if CH has the character of Hailing and Todd, lets get rid of Hailing and have Kannan replace Hailing. That would make the GW Wrait worshipers happy. I'm looking at you, Spikey and das.


Great review :D
Thanks, I have been expermenting with a new format. Apparently my fellow posters like this format better.

joebags
February 29th, 2008, 08:35 PM
The Good: Michael. Beckett. McKay/Beckett talks are cool! Athosians found. Todd's long lost twin Halling alive!

The Dumb: Teyla won't run because brainfried sortahusband is with Michael. Dudette, what about saving your baby??

The Bad: Keller, who jumped back from that injured dude. Honey, didn't you call yourself a Doctor? Can we put her into stasis?

The Ugly: Next week's scene of two certain people snogging. Did my eyes deceive me? Gagfest.

KindlyKeller
February 29th, 2008, 08:38 PM
The Bad: Keller, who jumped back from that injured dude. Honey, didn't you call yourself a Doctor? Can we put her into stasis?


I have to force myself to stop responding to all anti-Keller remarks or I'll never survive this forum, :) BUT... it was a perfectly reasonable reaction. She recoiled when she realized who it was for about 5 seconds, then quickly took control of the situation and saved his life. People are giving her WAY too much grief for the same surprised reaction 90% of us would have. It didn't AT ALL have an impact on the guy's treatment.

Jenner8675309
February 29th, 2008, 08:41 PM
Was anybody shocked when Carson SHOT those 2 dudes???? WHOA! Talk about a new character development. Even if they did have Teyla, the old Carson wouldn't have done that. I'm not upset by it, don't get me wrong, just really shocked!

I have been growing tired of McKay but liked his compassion in this ep. The "He's not a cheap copy" line was great. And his scenes and dialog with Carson was great. Sad, but great.


I'm thrilled Carson is back and am fine with the fact he's a clone. Sure, the real one would have been nice of course, but this is fine by me. And since we know a bit about S5, I'm ok with him in stasis for now :)

But I gotta say, some of the acting was really subpar in the ep. I've never thought Staite was a good actor, but man, on screen next to McGillion, OUCH! It was soo painfully and blatantly obvious. She is def the worst one on the cast. I also though AT, JF, DH and RL acting was way below what it should have been. That def took away from the ep for me.

But in the end Carson is back and that makes this episode great in my book :)

Ruffles
February 29th, 2008, 08:41 PM
Research. A fair amount of DNA is stored on the shelves quite often (Sperm Banks one such example, I think they also keep DNA to compare too in the military, but I'm not sure about that so...). Atlantis also has the storage capacity for all of Atlantis's staff, I doubt they'd just go and throw perfectly good blood away, particularly in the case that someone was critically injured and they needed a transfusion. Carson seems like that kind of guy.

The truth is, they just didn't want to restore Carson in the episode. That's all that's to it. But a good deal.

And yes, the device has a few crickets in it's systems, but Carson's dying anyways, I'd rather take the chance and live then to go into cold storage.

And besides, I'd rather see that person sit in one of our oh so hospitable jails on Earth than anywhere else in the Milky Way or Pegasus. But Atlantis's brig seems fair enough for me.

I agree that they didn't want to restore Carson. Since he isn't a regular, they needed a good reason for him to not be around. As to blood supply, I also agree that they would use blood for transfusions. Hence not having any of Carson's left.

ladyjanus
February 29th, 2008, 08:43 PM
So, Michael has an army of hybrid human/wraith created form the former Athosians, but apparently he also has human followers. I suppose you can't really call them wraith worshippers since if they follow Michael they must also be working toward ridding the PG of the wraith. Would you call them Michael worshippers? Michaelites? Michaelians? What would you call the hybrid race - Huwraith?

Suggestions?

ladyjanus

joebags
February 29th, 2008, 08:50 PM
I have to force myself to stop responding to all anti-Keller remarks or I'll never survive this forum, :) BUT... it was a perfectly reasonable reaction. She recoiled when she realized who it was for about 5 seconds, then quickly took control of the situation and saved his life. People are giving her WAY too much grief for the same surprised reaction 90% of us would have. It didn't AT ALL have an impact on the guy's treatment.

You've never seen "Trauma - Life in the ER" have you? Doctors don't care if their patient is a president, child, businessman, drug dealer, serial killer, they run to care for all the same. That scene just showed what a crappy doctor Keller really is. Real doctors don't play "pick and choose" with their patients.

KindlyKeller
February 29th, 2008, 08:53 PM
Real doctors don't play "pick and choose" with their patients.

Nor did she, since -- as I mentioned in my previous post -- she treated him promptly and successfully.

Lythisrose
February 29th, 2008, 08:56 PM
You've never seen "Trauma - Life in the ER" have you? Doctors don't care if their patient is a president, child, businessman, drug dealer, serial killer, they run to care for all the same. That scene just showed what a crappy doctor Keller really is. Real doctors don't play "pick and choose" with their patients.

I am not a Keller fan at all, but that is a REALLY idealized view of doctors. They are human, and react as individuals, some brave and selfless, some not so much. And most (in the US anyway) do pick and choose their patients. In many cases you are spit out of luck if you don't have insurance. :(

dasNdanger
February 29th, 2008, 08:58 PM
Thats within the realm of possibility. I would like to see a struggle between Micheal's control and his own mind It won't happen but if CH has the character of Hailing and Todd, lets get rid of Hailing and have Kannan replace Hailing. That would make the GW Wrait worshipers happy. I'm looking at you, Spikey and das.

And I'm looking right back atcha! :D Yeah - I can't see CH continuing to portray both characters, and it would be SOOOPIT for the PTB to drop Todd in favor of Halling. Halling is a big sweet guy, but that's about it. Todd - Todd is just awesome! Complex, a bit sneaky, good sense of humor, sharp dresser - what else could we ask for in a character??! (Well, besides making him a permanent character in the show...yeah, like that's gonna happen. Wraith all have big fat bullseyes on their backsides, it seems...drawn there by TPTB.)

One thing I didn't like is the little hint put in there that Todd is lying, and that he only does things to get something in return. In Common Ground, Todd gave Sheppard back his life - he really didn't HAVE to do that. Sure, he was 'repaying a debt', but since when have Wraith thought with their conscience instead of their feeding hand. I truly believe Common Ground established that Todd did have the ability to do good, even when it was of no benefit to himself to do so. Whoever wrote that story needs to write a few more 'Todd' stories or scenes, because otherwise, it looks like the writers might be preparing to turn him into just another 'bad guy', which would be a total waste of a great character.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm obsessed. :rolleyes:

Oh, and was I the only one who teared up over Ronon's goodbye to Carson? *sniffle* Very touching....


das

Briangate78
February 29th, 2008, 08:59 PM
Was anybody shocked when Carson SHOT those 2 dudes???? WHOA! Talk about a new character development. Even if they did have Teyla, the old Carson wouldn't have done that. I'm not upset by it, don't get me wrong, just really shocked!

I have been growing tired of McKay but liked his compassion in this ep. The "He's not a cheap copy" line was great. And his scenes and dialog with Carson was great. Sad, but great.


I'm thrilled Carson is back and am fine with the fact he's a clone. Sure, the real one would have been nice of course, but this is fine by me. And since we know a bit about S5, I'm ok with him in stasis for now :)

But I gotta say, some of the acting was really subpar in the ep. I've never thought Staite was a good actor, but man, on screen next to McGillion, OUCH! It was soo painfully and blatantly obvious. She is def the worst one on the cast. I also though AT, JF, DH and RL acting was way below what it should have been. That def took away from the ep for me.

But in the end Carson is back and that makes this episode great in my book :)

Since you are a major supporter of the SCB campaign it makes me happy to hear you say that. I totally agree with you! :)

I hope a lot of fans accept this Carson. It is a real Carson. No replicator, or machine. He is flesh and blood and an exact copy of Carson.

KindlyKeller
February 29th, 2008, 09:03 PM
I am not a Keller fan at all, but that is a REALLY idealized view of doctors. They are human, and react as individuals, some brave and selfless, some not so much. And most (in the US anyway) do pick and choose their patients. In many cases you are spit out of luck if you don't have insurance. :(

Considering you're not a Keller fan, I appreciate this reasonable viewpoint. The crazy thing is -- we're not talking about Keller refusing to treat him or freezing up and letting the guy die. We're talking about a 5-second reaction of surprise, followed by her PROMPTLY going into full-on doctor mode and SAVING THE GUY'S LIFE. I truly can't comprehend how there's room for complaint.

Fenrir Foxz
February 29th, 2008, 09:05 PM
Considering you're not a Keller fan, I appreciate this reasonable viewpoint. The crazy thing is -- we're not talking about Keller refusing to treat him or freezing up and letting the guy die. We're talking about a 5-second reaction of surprise, followed by her PROMPTLY going into full-on doctor mode and SAVING THE GUY'S LIFE. I truly can't comprehend how there's room for complaint.

I completely agree ;)

jelgate
February 29th, 2008, 09:11 PM
And I'm looking right back atcha! :D Yeah - I can't see CH continuing to portray both characters, and it would be SOOOPIT for the PTB to drop Todd in favor of Halling. Halling is a big sweet guy, but that's about it. Todd - Todd is just awesome! Complex, a bit sneaky, good sense of humor, sharp dresser - what else could we ask for in a character??! (Well, besides making him a permanent character in the show...yeah, like that's gonna happen. Wraith all have big fat bullseyes on their backsides, it seems...drawn there by TPTB.)

One thing I didn't like is the little hint put in there that Todd is lying, and that he only does things to get something in return. In Common Ground, Todd gave Sheppard back his life - he really didn't HAVE to do that. Sure, he was 'repaying a debt', but since when have Wraith thought with their conscience instead of their feeding hand. I truly believe Common Ground established that Todd did have the ability to do good, even when it was of no benefit to himself to do so. Whoever wrote that story needs to write a few more 'Todd' stories or scenes, because otherwise, it looks like the writers might be preparing to turn him into just another 'bad guy', which would be a total waste of a great character.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm obsessed. :rolleyes:

Oh, and was I the only one who teared up over Ronon's goodbye to Carson? *sniffle* Very touching....


das

At the end of the day Todd is still a Wraith and is going to do whats in his best interest. He will always do whats in his best interest. I can't common on CG because I haven't seen it in awhile. I highly doubt that he will become a pure evil guy. I like the fact that he has a gray area and the whole forum knows your obessed. The whole was very sad.

GateLadyM
February 29th, 2008, 09:12 PM
And most (in the US anyway) do pick and choose their patients. In many cases you are spit out of luck if you don't have insurance. :(

No emergency room in the US can turn away a patient in a life or death situation, whether they have insurance or not. Its one of the sticking points in the ongoing illegal alien problem.

Back to SGA:

Why didn't Keller think of putting Weir in the stasis chamber when she was having the nanite issue way back? Oh right, the writers didn't want Weir back at all. How silly of me.

I actually did accept Carson as a clone. He looked and acted like the real Carson, and the guy thought he was the real deal. I bought it, and I hope he gets a lot more than 5 episodes next season.

dasNdanger
February 29th, 2008, 09:13 PM
So, Michael has an army of hybrid human/wraith created form the former Athosians, but apparently he also has human followers. I suppose you can't really call them wraith worshippers since if they follow Michael they must also be working toward ridding the PG of the wraith. Would you call them Michael worshippers? Michaelites? Michaelians? What would you call the hybrid race - Huwraith?

Suggestions?

ladyjanus

Huwraithmanus...sounds...Latin. :D

I agree, I don't think Michael's followers should be called 'Wraith worshippers'. I like Michaelites, that would work - but then again, my brain is tired and I really, REALLY shouldn't be trying to stay up to watch Miller's Crossing airing here at 2 am... :rolleyes: .


das

GateTrek2004
February 29th, 2008, 09:21 PM
I have to force myself to stop responding to all anti-Keller remarks or I'll never survive this forum, :) BUT... it was a perfectly reasonable reaction. She recoiled when she realized who it was for about 5 seconds, then quickly took control of the situation and saved his life. People are giving her WAY too much grief for the same surprised reaction 90% of us would have. It didn't AT ALL have an impact on the guy's treatment.

At Least i know i'm not the Only one that doesn't Dislike Keller! People give her too muck grief just becuase of the shows change! Sometimes change is for the good!

Mekarri
February 29th, 2008, 09:25 PM
I didn't see any compassion from Keller. She was her usual monotone self, except when she is whining about something (like not being invited to parties).
I agree about Keller being not right for this part. I missed Carson so much on the show. I would gladly trade Keller for Carson. They really should have never killed off his character in the first place. I like Teyla but I hate that they worked Rachel pregnancy into the show. I like Teyla better when she was kicking ass. Why wouldn't Teyla run the first chance she got. You would think her first priorty would be to her child. And the fact that she knows that Michael got all sort of unpleasant thing in store for her and her child. I like this episode simply because it had Carson. If it didn't have Carson it would not have kept my attention. CARSON SHOULD HAVE NEVER BEEN KILLED OFF. *mod snip - keep the insults off the forum please*

dasNdanger
February 29th, 2008, 09:26 PM
At the end of the day Todd is still a Wraith and is going to do whats in his best interest. He will always do whats in his best interest. I can't common on CG because I haven't seen it in awhile. I highly doubt that he will become a pure evil guy. I like the fact that he has a gray area

Yeah, I like him in the gray area, too. I liked the added edge he had in Kindred 1 - and hope to see a little more of that. I say 'edge' - maybe he just seemed a little more slippery, or something - and I liked that. Don't want Todd to be all warm and fuzzy. I actually want have him do something that reminds us all he's still a Wraith, without that 'something' being an evil plot against earth, or whatever. Nah - what I'd rather see are some of the Wraith elements we know already exist applied to Todd - I'd like to see if he has worshippers, and if so - would love to see one of them sacrifice themselves to him, just because he needs a snack. Yeah, I'm ready to see Todd feed again, as long as it's not on someone we know...unless it's a Genii - those guys are fair game, IMHO. ;)


and the whole forum knows your obessed.

God, it shows THAT much???! And here I thought I was being all subtle about it... :p


das

Lythisrose
February 29th, 2008, 09:31 PM
Considering you're not a Keller fan, I appreciate this reasonable viewpoint. The crazy thing is -- we're not talking about Keller refusing to treat him or freezing up and letting the guy die. We're talking about a 5-second reaction of surprise, followed by her PROMPTLY going into full-on doctor mode and SAVING THE GUY'S LIFE. I truly can't comprehend how there's room for complaint.

I do agree with you, her reaction was not at all unreasonable.

beneaththeblue
February 29th, 2008, 09:35 PM
I liked the emotional interactions of the cast in this episode, but am I the only one bothered by the HUGE plot holes? Or did I miss some explanations for these?

1. How did Michael manage to have a ready-made Carson clone on the planet where they were keeping the former Wraiths?

2. Why was Carson terribly ill and deteriorating internally one minute, then up and running on a mission, guns a-blazing? So, he had a few stomach pains, that was still lame.

3. As someone else posted, why would he shoot at the guys on either side of Teyla, risking her and the baby's lives? He's no sharpshooting soldier-type!

4. Why didn't he or Teyla yell for the team to come help them? And I agree, it was really OOC for Teyla to not save the baby by getting the hell out of there.

zodden
February 29th, 2008, 09:41 PM
All I can say is Keller must go. She is bad enough when not standing next to Carson's character but seeing them together in the same episode the sharp contrast explodes. She helps bring the teenage boys to watch, and he adds a level of depth to the show that is missing since he left.

They need to bring him on for more then 5 eps next season and if this show goes to 6 then bring him back full time. All the other stuff in the episode was fluff to me. He belongs on the show, she does not.

KindlyKeller
February 29th, 2008, 09:51 PM
He belongs on the show, she does not.

An opinion not uncommon, unfortunately. Beckett WAS awesome tonight, though.

Shan Bruce Lee
February 29th, 2008, 09:54 PM
I liked the emotional interactions of the cast in this episode, but am I the only one bothered by the HUGE plot holes? Or did I miss some explanations for these?

1. How did Michael manage to have a ready-made Carson clone on the planet where they were keeping the former Wraiths?

That's just where he got Carson's DNA.


2. Why was Carson terribly ill and deteriorating internally one minute, then up and running on a mission, guns a-blazing? So, he had a few stomach pains, that was still lame.

Have you ever had a headache, or stomach ache, charlie-horse... that came and went?


3. As someone else posted, why would he shoot at the guys on either side of Teyla, risking her and the baby's lives? He's no sharpshooting soldier-type!

Because he was at point blank range. Plain and simple.


4. Why didn't he or Teyla yell for the team to come help them? And I agree, it was really OOC for Teyla to not save the baby by getting the hell out of there.

I completely disagree. I think her unwillingness to leave him behind is exactly who she's always been. A lot of the time she's been the most compassionate of the AT-1 members. 'Letters From Peagasus' is the perfect example.

FireCat
February 29th, 2008, 09:54 PM
This could have been better.

What happened to the fire in Teyla? One minute she wants to kill whoever took the Athosians, but the next she is a wuss. Then she gets a chance to escape and save her son but she stays? Hello? What was with that?

Beckett is such a gem, and the worries about mum were so sad. Poor Keller really pales in comparison. TPTB need to just say it, this character (Keller) doesn't work. She doesn't gel with any of the others, and she is wimpy and boring. Please send her off and bring Beckett back to us full time. He has been missed. :)

I'm hoping some day we get a Michael and Todd face-off. That I would pay to see!

Shan Bruce Lee
February 29th, 2008, 10:00 PM
An opinion not uncommon, unfortunately. Beckett WAS awesome tonight, though.

Yeah, he's always cool but what does that have to do with Keller? I agree with what you said about the "Anti-Keller" stuff being hard to ignore because no matter what people want to say, at the end of the day, Keller's character has nothing to do with Carson.

Firespray
February 29th, 2008, 10:03 PM
That was a pretty cool episode, was just so awesome to see Carson back in action :D It was hard to adjust to it though since he's been gone for almost a whole season but was just worth seeing him back :) I liked his little line about feeling like "a dog's breakfast" :p Was anyone else pretty creeped out over Halling's new haircut? That and the mood of the prison totally reminded me of Jewish Internment camps = /. The scenes involving both Beckett and Keller were pretty awkward to watch but I still like both characters, should be interesting to see how that all plays out.

jenks
February 29th, 2008, 10:06 PM
No emergency room in the US can turn away a patient in a life or death situation, whether they have insurance or not. Its one of the sticking points in the ongoing illegal alien problem.

Back to SGA:

Why didn't Keller think of putting Weir in the stasis chamber when she was having the nanite issue way back? Oh right, the writers didn't want Weir back at all. How silly of me.

I actually did accept Carson as a clone. He looked and acted like the real Carson, and the guy thought he was the real deal. I bought it, and I hope he gets a lot more than 5 episodes next season.

The shield had been collapsed so that it only encompassed the tower by then.

KindlyKeller
February 29th, 2008, 10:10 PM
Yeah, he's always cool but what does that have to do with Keller? I agree with what you said about the "Anti-Keller" stuff being hard to ignore because no matter what people want to say, at the end of the day, Keller's character has nothing to do with Carson.

That was my olive branch. Basically, my point is, I have affection for Carson. As you're indicating, liking Carson and liking Keller are not mutually exclusive. They're totally different characters. I prefer Keller, but I like Carson a lot.

Shan Bruce Lee
February 29th, 2008, 10:10 PM
That was a pretty cool episode, was just so awesome to see Carson back in action :D It was hard to adjust to it though since he's been gone for almost a whole season but was just worth seeing him back :) I liked his little line about feeling like "a dog's breakfast" :p Was anyone else pretty creeped out over Halling's new haircut? That and the mood of the prison totally reminded me of Jewish Internment camps = /. The scenes involving both Beckett and Keller were pretty awkward to watch but I still like both characters, should be interesting to see how that all plays out.

I hadn't thought of that but it does make you realize just how messed up it was. There were kids in there too.

dasNdanger
February 29th, 2008, 10:15 PM
This could have been better.

What happened to the fire in Teyla? One minute she wants to kill whoever took the Athosians, but the next she is a wuss. Then she gets a chance to escape and save her son but she stays? Hello? What was with that?

Beckett is such a gem, and the worries about mum were so sad. Poor Keller really pales in comparison. TPTB need to just say it, this character (Keller) doesn't work. She doesn't gel with any of the others, and she is wimpy and boring. Please send her off and bring Beckett back to us full time. He has been missed. :)

I'm hoping some day we get a Michael and Todd face-off. That I would pay to see!


Yeah, I was hoping for some Todd-Michael interaction - but ONLY if Todd comes out on top! Funny how Toddless episodes aren't quite as exciting as the ones he's in, eh? ;) Wonder if TPTB are picking up on this yet...

As far as Keller goes - in all fairness, she's not that bad...she just needs to be developed better. I liked her humor in Trio , and I think this is the sort of thing that needs to be developed in her if she is to work. WHY do we love Beckett so much? Because he was endearing, and he became that way through his nervous humor. Keller is nervous, but they just don't give her the right sort of humor to make her endearing to us. That's the writer's fault, not the actress.

Now, I usually don't care much for female characters, but I am willing to give the girl a chance. Maybe, if the writers made her a little more snarky, a little more sarcastic, then fans would like her more. Why do so many of us love Todd? Because the writers have embraced the character and are doing him justice. Sounds to me that the writers just haven't embraced Keller, and until they do, neither will the majority of fans.


das

Firespray
February 29th, 2008, 10:19 PM
I hadn't thought of that but it does make you realize just how messed up it was. There were kids in there too.

Yeah it sounds weird when you say it but that whole mood really sold it for me.

Landers
February 29th, 2008, 10:28 PM
I think Keller has been developed as well as she can be. We've had a whole season now and all we have is a self-centered, whiny doctor-wanna-be. I don't take her seriously as a doctor and as the season has progressed, I became even less tolerant of her. She opens her mouth and I fall asleep. Her scenes with Carson tonight were just awful. She can't hold a candle to his personality. I was choking tears by the end because of Carson and his interaction with the others, but I would never feel that way about Keller. Heck, I'd probably whoop for joy if Michael or Todd nabbed her.

Overall, this episode had lots of plot holes and I just can't excuse Teyla for choosing her boyfriend over the safety of her baby. Seems the writers either have no children of their own, or have no idea how a mother bonds with her child. I love my husband dearly, but I would never jeopardize the safety of my kids for him. Never.

Nice to see Halling again, but I fear we won't see much of Kanaan. My gut says he will eventually bite the dust saving Teyla. I'd rather see Teyla use her wits and skills getting herself out of trouble, but the writers would rather her be "Mary Sue" it seems. Too bad. Feisty Teyla is much more interesting.

majorsal
February 29th, 2008, 10:35 PM
so i finally got to see beckett! :D he's a really lovely character and the actor did a great job with him. :beckett:

i like beckett. i like keller too, a lot. i think she's real and i think she's sweet. hey, just like beckett. :D

poor teyla. reunited with her ppl and she finds out her lover/father of baby is not quite normal and her ppl are being killed off and she sees a long dead friend suddenly alive and she's kidnapped by a not quite normal crazy dude. hmm, sounds like one of my bad days at work. :p

very touching mckay-beckett scenes. nice work by the actors.

i loved the scene where beckett asked sam to give his mom a letter from him. i've been very curious about how those two characters would be together, so i was very happy with that scene. :) and he called her samantha! :D :beckett: :sam:

oh, and when beckett is put into the statis thinger, it showed sam's reaction first. i'm thinking she was remembering seeing jack put into that type of thing a few years ago. lovely symmetry (and ship). :)

so i wonder if this really ties into what happens in the season finale?... *is scared of ep*

i'm not 100 percent sure how i feel about beckett being a clone. i mean, he's alive and all, but he's not the real beckett. in a way. he is, but he's been put into a copy machine. but he's real too. :jack_new_anime05: i feel for him, but i feel for the beckett fans too. i'm torn.

all in all, a good ep. :)





sally :D

Mack_1
February 29th, 2008, 10:41 PM
Well the episode was ok I agree with the one that said the actors were acting really different, is it me or Mckay hasn’t been him self lately, I hate to admit but I guess I miss whiny Mckay. He seems like he got in touch with his “feminine” side, that’s good don'tget mewrong it seems he is been more sensitive, but he has change a LOT in the last 3 or 4 episodes, I guess this is good cause if they can change Rodney’s character that much in so little time, then Woolsey has a great chance.

And what is with you people and Keller’s reaction, if she recoil from the dude that wanted to kill her and Teyla, if she did this or if she didn’t, if she offer Carson the stasis chamber or if she even open her mouth to speak, yiacks! Give the character a chance, it wasn’t her fault TPTB kill/remove/clone Becket.

It was a natural reaction of surprise, neither she or Teyla new who he was, or for that matter who he was serving, so it was a more than a good reaction finding out who he is serving, he is serving the guy that has Teyla and her people, the guy that clone Carson and had him capture for two years? so she took a little seat back to breath but then she when to act.

And you are so in hating the Keller character that, you didn’t enjoy the character you were waiting for to came back to the series, or at least that’s what I’m getting from so many complains.

Now the episode:

Teyla, what was she thinking? Didn’t she just got injected and studied by Michael, that she is willing to stay behind and go find the father of her baby? and what about her people? She new they were there, so she jus forgot? Or more so what about her baby? :beckettanime14:

And what is it with this series that they are willing to give the “Wraith” “Hybrid” or whom ever, what they want or offer them sanctuary in order to obtain a little bit of information or help? And haven’t they learn that it always comes back to bite them in the backside? (Midway brings any memories or the access to the milky way, just because they let the “enemy help them”):beckettanime12:

What I like

Ronon saying bay to Carson one more time, and he saying something in that regards. “This is exactly what I was afraid of”:sheppardanime32:

Keller and Carson interaction and how Carson didn’t disrespect Keller because she was younger, inexperience or not knowing how to help him in that moment, and he didn’t doubt her, if he did he doubt the whole team, even Rodney when he said, “We all know that there is a big chance I’m not coming back”

The last message to his mom and how he address Carter by her name, and Carter’s reaction.

And last but not least, Carson/Rodney, again the lost of his best friend killing Rodney once more.

The interaction between Carter/Sheppard/Mckay and Ronon.

All and all, I like this episode even when I don‘t like Atlantis, not one of the best but it was passable.:indeed:

7/10 ...Just because Sam was on it. :samanime20:

Ps. I can hardly wait for the comments on next weeks episode and the interaction of certain Dr and Scientific. I can almost see it.;)


dasNdanger

Now, I usually don't care much for female characters, but I am willing to give the girl a chance. Maybe, if the writers made her a little more snarky, a little more sarcastic, then fans would like her more. Why do so many of us love Todd? Because the writers have embraced the character and are doing him justice. Sounds to me that the writers just haven't embraced Keller, and until they do, neither will the majority of fans.

Hey she has a chance.:jack_new_anime07:

markaudette
February 29th, 2008, 11:12 PM
My only complaint is that there doesn't have to be a gun fight in every episode.

On the bright side, this episode reminded me what Stargate is all about for the first time in two! seasons. It felt like Stargate of old.

It was really delicious seeing Carson again. It was so wonderful seeing the core team nearly back together again. So sad that Carson has to learn that Elizabeth was dead. Heartbreaking that he could never go back to see his mother again.

Nice to see the producers and writers moving Micheal in to be the series' main bad guy right now. Instead of fighting the Wraith or the Replicators in general. Or, heaven forbid, the freakin' Ori.

morjana
February 29th, 2008, 11:37 PM
SGA - SciFi Channel Updates for The Kindred, Part 2:

From the SciFi Channel's Stargate Atlantis site, updates for February 29, 2008:

http://www.scifi.com/atlantis/

"The Kindred, Part 2"

http://www.scifi.com/atlantis/episodes/episodes.php?seas=4&ep=0415&act=1

* Episode Synopsis

* Episode Photos


NEW Alex Levine Blog update for “The Kindred, Part 2:” And old friend’s unforeseen return spurs a race against time to rescue a missing teammate.


http://blog.scifi.com/stargate/

NEXT new episode: "The Last Man:" After another unsuccessful search for Teyla, John Sheppard return home to Atlantis to find the city completely abandoned.

Special Guest Stars: Connor Trinneer, Kate Hewlett, David Nykl, Robert Picardo


Trailer for "The Last Man:"

http://video.scifi.com/player/?id=223394

(Screenprints from trailer)





http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v443/morjana/scifi4/last/lm1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v443/morjana/scifi4/last/lm2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v443/morjana/scifi4/last/lm3.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v443/morjana/scifi4/last/lm4.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v443/morjana/scifi4/last/lm5.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v443/morjana/scifi4/last/lm6.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v443/morjana/scifi4/last/lm7.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v443/morjana/scifi4/last/lm8.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v443/morjana/scifi4/last/lm9.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v443/morjana/scifi4/last/lm10.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v443/morjana/scifi4/last/lm11.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v443/morjana/scifi4/last/lm12.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v443/morjana/scifi4/last/lm12a.jpg



NEW Quiz:

http://www.scifi.com/atlantis/quizzes/science/index.php?start=1

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v443/morjana/scifi4/last/quiz_pic_science.jpg

Scientific Disasters

March 1, 2008

The more advanced the technology, the bigger the calamity. Take the quiz and see how much you know about experiments gone awry in the Pegasus galaxy.



GET IN THE GATE SWEEPSTAKES - The Iris Closes March 14, 008!

http://www.scifi.com/getinthegate/


<><><><>

From the MGM Stargate site:

Unlock the Gate Sweepstakes

http://stargate.mgm.com/promotions/sweepstakes_code.php

The Gate closes on March 13, 2008.

Adrius
March 1st, 2008, 12:22 AM
Haven't read the entire thread. I love Carson, but making him a clone was really weak. What would have made a lot more sense to me and what would have been more interesting to me personally is that Carson WAS indeed cloned, but Michael kept the real one and sent the clone back, and it was the clone that died in the explosion. Maybe cheap, but I would have liked it more. I swore the writers said months ago it would be "really him", but it's really not. It's a copy, and it kinda sucks.

hisg1fans
March 1st, 2008, 12:52 AM
I usually only say something when I have something good to say, but I didn't care much for the episode, but then I've never cared at all for the Beckett character. Thought part 2 was a let down from part 1 and felt much of the sentimental stuff was forced.

I did notice Sam's reaction to putting Beckett in stasis though. Definitely a call back to watching O'Neill go into stasis I think. Could that be foreshadowing? I guess we'll see. Or maybe not, since so many plots/subplots seem to just 'non-end'.

The previews for next week were quite a shocker.

Willow'sCat
March 1st, 2008, 01:02 AM
Well what a sorry excuse of an episode this turned out to be!

Grrrr... second worse episode ever!

I knew it would be bad but this bad? Emotional I hear some of you say? What emotion? It was stupid! The only emotion I am feeling is extreme anger at tptb for caving into fans. :cool::rolleyes:

Well at least they subtly :p mentioned David's A Dog's Breakfast movie (yes it was deliberate as David made mention of it in his blog... twitter... I forget which one now... but he did. :S:D):p

I take it that Joe's kids were the two at the front? One of the kids couldn't stop looking at Joe so... anyway... that is my guess. :);)

JSPuddlejumper
March 1st, 2008, 03:09 AM
Kindred II was ok.

Integrabyte
March 1st, 2008, 03:40 AM
Paul was the main reason I saw the episode. Speaking of him, I do not regret that I tuned in. For the first time in S4 TPTB wrote a character the way they should. Beckett, eventhough he was a clone, played flawlessly. The chemistry between him and Rodney was amazing. In one episode he managed to shadow Sam, Teyla, Ronon, Keller and Zelenka; bear in mind this people are regulars:P. The way Paul plays is amazing. His scene with Rodney in quarantine and when he wanted to speak to Elizabeth marked me!!! Another important scene for me, at the end when he turns to "Samantha" :).
I almost forgot how it is to have a doctor who does not give up. Seeing him in action and taking control reminded me how good the medical department used to be in Atlantis. Keller was giving up so easily and Carson with Necrosis was working in order to find a cure. This should be a lesson to Keller. She has much to learn and she is Z E R O compared to Carson. When Carson starts talking you have this comfort feeling and you know he will do anything in his power to fix things. Keller does not inspire the same thing.

Turning now to Teyla and Michael, one can say they barely existed in this episode. The episode was written in such a way that Carson and Rodney had more influence. This falls under the "we screwed things up" category. You do not cast a character like Carson after such a long time in an episode focusing on Teyla and her people. Once again, the Athosians and Teyla were reduced to zero.


If the ratings were high for this episode it was because of Paul and not because people wanted to see how things turn out with Teyla and her people.



Thanks Paul for taking the time to give us some quality acting :). We missed that in S4. Hope to see you again sometime :)

Ademaro
March 1st, 2008, 03:42 AM
The episode was quite entertaining and as a person, who supported the Carson Beckett campaign, I felt very happy about Paul McGillion being back on the show (:

The ending was obviously very clever, from the writers' point of view, they can continue the storyline whenever they want to and there are gazillions of possibilities to bring the character back from that pod.

jenks
March 1st, 2008, 04:08 AM
I've just had a thought, when Rodney tells Carson that Weir was killed by replicators, why does he understand? If he were created after Misbegotten then he wouldn't of even heard of them would he?

gatechick
March 1st, 2008, 05:17 AM
LOVED every minute of the episode. It feels like Atlantis is finally on its feet as a show. It had suspense, emotion, action, everything I am looking for in this show. The part with Ronon and Beckett at the end made me tear up. So glad to see the Athosians, although I wish they would have mentioned something about them at the end. But I was a little confused, are they safe now or are they still prisoners?

So here is a question, and since I am not sure everyone has seen Uending, I will put it in spoiler mode.

Now that the Asguard are done for, and they said they were going to give everything to the Tauri they had technologically, wouldn't they now have what they need to repair the Carson clone and heal him, they way they did O'Neill's clone in Fragile Balance?

Elite Anubis Guard
March 1st, 2008, 05:39 AM
Okay, I'm sorry but this sarcy stuff if really irritating me so I'm butting in -


I still don't know. It might have healed his "pouch" and regenerated his immune system but was there any alterations to his DNA in that?

Yes. It heals everything. Death. Illnesses. Injuries. Did I mentioned death? I'm willing to bet it'd solve his cell regeneration problem.


Well the sarcophagus doesn't stop aging either.

It did. It so did. Are you forgetting most of your SG-1? Remember what happened to Apophis when he didn't get to use his sarcophagus?

As for the episode. Fantastic if only for Carson and the character moments. I can't say the story tickled me that much. I've found Teyla's supposed arc to be virtually non-existent and very very very underwhelming. It was also Carson this episode.

Now don't get me wrong. I'm not as annoyed with Keller as some people. I'm more indifferent to her. She's had her annoying episodes and her so-so episodes. She wasn't actually that bad in here.

I liked the little power play moments between them. When Beckett took over after returning from the planet and then when Keller asserted herself in the OR again. I liked their interactions. I mean, they're very different characters. Keller is so much younger than Beckett and it's reflected in her more caution approach to things. She'd rather have saved his life for the moment than risk it. I found nothing wrong with that.

I thought Paul did a fantastic job in this episode. It was him that made this so great. His performance was fantastic and his time spent with the other characters was great. Not quite as emotional as Meridian but a great piece none-the-less.

I'm not sure what to think of Michael at the moment. I really enjoyed him in S2/3 but he seems somewhat underwhelming recently. :mckay: Todd FTW.

Integrabyte
March 1st, 2008, 05:44 AM
Did anyone notice the "analogy" to that SG1 episode with the failed O'Neill clone? This was exactly the same but with a Stargate Atlantis twist:

SG1:

1. O'Neill clone at puberty with O'Neill's memories
2. Deteriorating body, clone will die
3. Clone gets fixed by Thor

SGA:
1. Carson clone full grown with Carson's memories
2. Deteriorating body, clone will die
3. Clone gets frozen to avoid death and be saved :)



...how original!!! :P:P:P:P:

Ugly Pig
March 1st, 2008, 05:53 AM
I've just had a thought, when Rodney tells Carson that Weir was killed by replicators, why does he understand? If he were created after Misbegotten then he wouldn't of even heard of them would he?

That's a very good point. He wouldn't know about the Pegasus replicators. So you can view this as a continuity mistake, or just assume that Carson was too shocked to hear of Weir's death to respond with "Replicators? What do you mean?".

Jackie
March 1st, 2008, 06:00 AM
The ep was okay...the ending predictable though. Loved Carson, I expected him to be a clone...was the only way to logically bring him back in the sci-fi world.

Didn't like Keller at all. I wanted Carson to slap her outside the head a few time.

Loved Rodney and his defending of carson.

In the ending, my sci-fi fanatic hubby did ask some questions (he usually eats this stuff up with no real thought.) Why doesn't Atlantis have a sarcophagus? Mentioned the scene was just like what they did to Jack in season 7.

IMO Micheal was the most interesting, attention grabber part of the ep. CT can deliver that character flawlessly. I was rooting for Micheal at the end of the ep.

Don't really know why tptb's bad guys seem to me to be more interesting and capture my attention better than the good guys.

However, that said, Carson was by far the only real good guy that could capture my attention out of the whole ep. Rodney and Sheppard would be a close third. Just couldn't connect with Teyla...maybe it's becuase during her most dramatic plea with Micheal to no harm her baby, half her chest was exposed to the camera.

The actress is very pregnant and still be put into cleavage exposing costumes. *rolls eyes*

Sam is out of her element...no doubt...she isn't sam in this series. She's just an administer, no character or emotion behind the acting. Soldier Sam works great in the field but not behind a desk.

With Jack behind the desk, you could tell he was bored and hated it...RDA could pull it off. Sam behind a desk makes no sense.

runnerX
March 1st, 2008, 06:01 AM
Haven't read the entire thread. I love Carson, but making him a clone was really weak. What would have made a lot more sense to me and what would have been more interesting to me personally is that Carson WAS indeed cloned, but Michael kept the real one and sent the clone back, and it was the clone that died in the explosion. Maybe cheap, but I would have liked it more. I swore the writers said months ago it would be "really him", but it's really not. It's a copy, and it kinda sucks.
The producers lied to us. They said he will be the real Carson not a clone or a replicator. I fried my brains trying to figure out how they could bring the real one back alive and well. Last week's episode The kindred part 1, they said we would see the replicators, this episode carson is not the real one his just a clone. What the hell is happening??

Still seeing Carson back even as a clone proved good enough for me and overall it was a good episode.

ShadowMaat
March 1st, 2008, 06:03 AM
I've just had a thought, when Rodney tells Carson that Weir was killed by replicators, why does he understand? If he were created after Misbegotten then he wouldn't of even heard of them would he?

I wondered about that, too, but expecting continuity and logic now would be a bit silly. ;)

Wasn't impressed by the ep. Glad I watched since it probably would have bugged me not to know, but of all the ways this could have turned out, I thought the clone shtick was a bit weak. Paul was great and Carson's panic over his mother was classic and spot-on, but as a whole the ep felt kinda dull. I'd say it was predictable but I know people get all bent out of shape and insulting over that epitaph and it wasn't that I knew what was going to happen as much as it was that I didn't really care. The Athosians were rescued. Whoopee. Now they can be a pain in the arse again as Team Atlantis tries to find another place to hide them and get them out of the story. ;) Hairless Halling was looking quite slick (I assume that's been around for a while since Teyla didn't comment) but the rest of them were just a bunch of extras wandering in and out of frame. *sigh*

I also kinda wish that JUST ONCE we could have a scifi pregnancy THAT IS COMPLETELY NORMAL! Ye gods, is it really asking that much to NOT have a Baby of Doom™? I have a feeling Teyla's sapwn isn't going to be significantly original from the other Evil Forces Having Designs on the Unborn that we've already seen in shows like SG-1, 4400 and Angel. This ep did nothing to reassure me on that score and, in fact, convinced me I was right to be worried.

Anyway, I think that's it for me. I came, I saw, I was unimpressed. :P

Briangate78
March 1st, 2008, 06:03 AM
Well what a sorry excuse of an episode this turned out to be!

Grrrr... second worse episode ever!



That is rather harsh, Damn, :eek:


Did anyone notice the "analogy" to that SG1 episode with the failed O'Neill clone? This was exactly the same but with a Stargate Atlantis twist:

SG1:

1. O'Neill clone at puberty with O'Neill's memories
2. Deteriorating body, clone will die
3. Clone gets fixed by Thor

SGA:
1. Carson clone full grown with Carson's memories
2. Deteriorating body, clone will die
3. Clone gets frozen to avoid death and be saved :)



...how original!!! :P:P:P:P:

So what? :rolleyes:

Myles
March 1st, 2008, 06:08 AM
The producers lied to us. They said he will be the real Carson not a clone or a replicator. I fried my brains trying to figure out how they could bring the real one back alive and well. Last week's episode The kindred part 1, they said we would see the replicators, this episode carson is not the real one his just a clone. What the hell is happening??

Still seeing Carson back even as a clone proved good enough for me and overall it was a good episode.

OMG! There is an entire thread about that. Joe M did not lie He said it would be Carson in the flesh and blood, never that he wouldn't be a clone.

Personally, I liked this episode more then the first part. It isn't in the highest tier of my likes this season, but it's up there.

ShadowMaat
March 1st, 2008, 06:09 AM
SG1:

1. O'Neill clone at puberty with O'Neill's memories
2. Deteriorating body, clone will die
3. Clone gets fixed by Thor

SGA:
1. Carson clone full grown with Carson's memories
2. Deteriorating body, clone will die
3. Clone gets frozen to avoid death and be saved :)
Hmmm. So how about asking Hermiod for help? ;) Or did they get rid of him when they got rid of the rest of the Asgard?

Integrabyte
March 1st, 2008, 06:20 AM
I do agree the ending was a bit predictable :)



From the moment he finds out about his disease three possibilities arise:

1. He dies and bye bye Carson for the second time.
2. They get the "tretonin" (my god, I did it again :P ), and he lives until they find a cure.
3. They find a way to slow his death until they find a solution.


I honestly thought he will die....again :P... but Rodney's actions convinced me otherwise. He was so determined to help his best friend and to find solutions. Then Michael left him to die so I hoped they will use door number three :). They did use it and now they can always bring him back in S5 when they lose viewers ;)


Sorry but my Theory of Knowledge teacher is to blame :P. I had 3 years of critical thinking and it seems I ended up contaminated. One of the reasons I criticise a lot :P. Or it could be because I have a big mouth :D. ...you don't have to answer that :P:P

Briangate78
March 1st, 2008, 06:24 AM
I do agree the ending was a bit predictable :)



From the moment he finds out about his disease three possibilities arise:

1. He dies and bye bye Carson for the second time.
2. They get the "tretonin" (my god, I did it again :P ), and he lives until they find a cure.
3. They find a way to slow his death until they find a solution.


I honestly thought he will die....again :P... but Rodney's actions convinced me otherwise. He was so determined to help his best friend and to find solutions. Then Michael left him to die so I hoped they will use door number three :). They did use it and now they can always bring him back in S5 when they lose viewers ;)

Well right now they are maintaining their viewers. As per Carson, it was well done the ending. Michael did not kill him because he knew he had limited time left without an injection. I did not even think he was going to come face to face with Michael, that exceeded my expectations. Teyla's face seeing Carson running towards her was priceless. Amazing episode! Best Season to date!! :cool:

runnerX
March 1st, 2008, 06:25 AM
OMG! There is an entire thread about that. Joe M did not lie He said it would be Carson in the flesh and blood, never that he wouldn't be a clone.

Personally, I liked this episode more then the first part. It isn't in the highest tier of my likes this season, but it's up there.

I remember reading this here on gateworld where he said that Carson will be the real one in the flesh and blood and not just as a simple clone. I'm sure of that.

Briangate78
March 1st, 2008, 06:27 AM
I remember reading this here on gateworld where he said that Carson will be the real one in the flesh and blood and not just as a simple clone. I'm sure of that.

GW basically got the information incorrect. Joe M was misquoted.

The_Carpenter
March 1st, 2008, 06:28 AM
I remember reading this here on gateworld where he said that Carson will be the real one in the flesh and blood and not just as a simple clone. I'm sure of that.
He was misquoted by fans. Think Chinese Whispers he said it would be Carson in the flesh that was all

Integrabyte
March 1st, 2008, 06:30 AM
Well right now they are maintaining their viewers. As per Carson, it was well done the ending. Michael did not kill him because he knew he had limited time left without an injection. I did not even think he was going to come face to face with Michael, that exceeded my expectations. Teyla's face seeing Carson running towards her was priceless. Amazing episode! Best Season to date!! :cool:

To be frank, can I be frank? :P, I don't care about the plot holes in this episode. Paul's good acting drew my attention away. He was amazing and I had S1,S2, and S3 memories because of him. What does it take to feed Keller to the Wraith???:P:P Please, for me:P ***angel look ***. Bring back Paul to be in charge of the medical department because he knows that it is in the wrist :) :P:P .

Integrabyte
March 1st, 2008, 06:31 AM
GW basically got the information incorrect. Joe M was misquoted.



Blame the postman, why not :). Funny how it is never JM's fault.

Briangate78
March 1st, 2008, 06:37 AM
Blame the postman, why not :). Funny how it is never JM's fault.

I blame Joe M for other things. I just don't talk about it.


To be frank, can I be frank? :P, I don't care about the plot holes in this episode. Paul's good acting drew my attention away. He was amazing and I had S1,S2, and S3 memories because of him. What does it take to feed Keller to the Wraith???:P:P Please, for me:P ***angel look ***. Bring back Paul to be in charge of the medical department because he knows that it is in the wrist :) :P:P .

Well this episode proved we need Carson back. He did an amazing job and it made the episode one of my tops this season. :)

Integrabyte
March 1st, 2008, 06:44 AM
I blame Joe M for other things. I just don't talk about it.



Well this episode proved we need Carson back. He did an amazing job and it made the episode one of my tops this season. :)

At what cost? At Teyla's and Michael's ;).

sweetsamurai
March 1st, 2008, 06:58 AM
Wow! First post!

What tense episode! So is Dr. Beckett real or a clone? I don't believe he's a clone. I personally think that Michael messed with his DNA to make him suceseptible to that mystery drug so that if he ever escaped he would die.



Vala,

This is exactly what I thought at the end and what I really hope for since I really really don't want him to be a clone.

ShadowMaat
March 1st, 2008, 07:00 AM
Was very good compared to the rest of the season, but Carson back just showed how pitiful Keller is.
I was very disappointed that they chose to have Carson collapse when he did. Very dramatic, yes, but I was really looking forward to a great Carson/Keller scene and showing how well the two of them could complement each other.

I can sort of understand where folks are coming from with all the Keller hate since it isn't easy to see your favorite character replaced, never mind having him replaced with a Buxom Young Thang, but the few times I've seen her I haven't had any problems with her and I didn't have any problems with her here, either. I don't think she was wrong to want to stick him in the "freezer" since it seemed likely that a solution wouldn't be found in time- and given that Carson was helping with that research you can't exactly call her "too stupid to figure it out;" putting him in suspension was the most likely way to preserve his life until a solution could be found. It takes some of the pressure off and will give her time to do more research into it. If she'd slapped something together and tried it out without enough testing first and it turned out to make things worse, she'd be branded as incompetent and murderous. Isn't it better that she recognizes her limits as well as the limits imposed upon her by the situation?

From an emotional standpoint it's also easier for her to make the call since she doesn't know Carson except for what she's heard/read about him (er, right?). Plus, as a doctor, sometimes you need to make the tough calls. Sure, maybe you or the "family" want the person to stick around, but if doing so could cause MORE damage and might even be fatal, wouldn't it be better to tuck him away for safekeeping?

Speaking of Carson's decline, he seemed just as surprised as everyone else when he started to have pains, but it was only the fourth day in from his weekly injection. Was increased activity speeding up the rate of decay? Because you think he would have noticed if he started hurting every single week X number of days after the injection. Or was he more or less sedentary for the entire two years he was gone and Michael magically timed the injections so that Carson would never notice?

I also agree with those questioning Carson's inconsistent behavior: one minute he's in agony, the next he's running around with guns blazing? If he's deteriorating that fast it should at least slow him up a bit. Especially if the increased activity is what's killing him.

Oh, and Teyla's decision to stay with Kanaan rather than looking after her baby? Proves that the writers can't stop making the characters into idiots. *headdesk* Does she think that Team Atlantis won't continue the search for him if she isn't there? ....Actually, that might be a valid concern given the Team's continual skepticism/disregard where she's concerned, but she could always strike out on her own- AFTER making sure her baby is safe. I know she loves the guy (or at least that's what they keep telling us), but she's acting beyond idiotic. I've said it before and I'll say it again: if you have to turn your characters into imbeciles in order to move the plot forward then there's something wrong with the plot. And hell, this would have been so easy to resolve! Teyla agrees to go along with Carson only to be stopped by Michael who uses his wraithy powers over Carson in order to take Teyla back into the fold. That's practically what happened anyway excpet without the stupidity. :P

I see the clone thing seems to be a big issue. For what it's worth, I could have sworn Joe said it wouldn't be a clone, but as I was reading his reproduced answers here on the forum and not from his actual blog and as it was a long, long time ago that I read it, I guess I misunderstood what I saw. *shrug* Even after the furor with Joe dissing GW over the misquote, my reaction was, "It was a misquote?" So while I think the clone story dumb, I don't necessarily think Joe flat-out lied. Not about this, anyway. ;)

Clem
March 1st, 2008, 07:13 AM
Glad to have Carson back, even if we have to settle for a POW backup copy. I just hope he doesn't go blonde and start calling himself Ben Reilly. Make way for Carson Kaine, Carsoncide, etc.

I've always found it strange how SGA deals with character evolution. It's like theres an unwritten law that states if your character changes too much, you shall be demoted to guest star and disappear for half a season at a time.

Ford goes Supersoldier? Bumped from the cast and disappears.
Weir goes Replicator? Bumped from the cast and disappears.
Beckett goes clone? Bumped from the cast and indefinitely held in stasis.

They introduce these interesting new dynamics, only to completely ignore them and focus on the unaffected castmembers who've played the same damn traits for 4 years.

Do we honestly have to revert to status quo all the time? It'd be fascinating to have RepliWeir, SuperFord and CarClone on the team wouldn't it?

sweetsamurai
March 1st, 2008, 07:13 AM
I was expecting, other than the real carson, the banter and chemistry between Carson and Mckay. WHile I understand it is a poignant time for Mckay and even Carson, and they need to do their 'I love you and miss you' stuff - I really wanted the old team back and having their wonderful and funny bouncing off each other with hilarious dialogue etc..

So dissapointed with his 'return' and this episode. I pleaded a year ago for the writers not to turn Teyla's baby into the next generation for the bad guys....what has happened to Stargate Atlantis?

I've been watching all the season 1 to season 3 - and those series were exceptional. I don't understand. And so many people seem to be happy with this mediocre average unoriginal writing that has been given in season four (though there are three or four episodes that were excellent) and I fear the writers will think they have done a brillaint job and continue with this mundane level of excitment in their ideas and episodes. :(

I'm also a little confused. I thought Carson was going to be in two episodes of Season 4? Or does one line at the end of the Kindred Part 1 count as one? If that is correct - then that really sucks like dating a wraith.

Klenotka
March 1st, 2008, 07:18 AM
I don´t know where to start but this was...terrible. :( I am so damn disappointed and angry right now!

First of all - tptb can´t keep their mounth shut so they spoil everything. And what isn´t spoiled, it´s not simply true. Our Carson...yeah, sure.

There are very few things I liked - Rodney, Carson and, suprisingly Keller.
Rodney was really affected by Beckett´s return and his scene with Carson, telling him about his death and about loss of Elizabeth, it was very well done. I think the huge share in this have David with Paul who were both great in whole episode.
What more did I like? Oh, yeah, Halling and his return from plot hole.
I also liked Sheppard and Ronon. They stood behind Rodney´s decision about Carson and Shep seemed to understand Rodney and just...was there, which was cool.

Then, that´s it. No more positives.

Negatives - can I say whole episode? But it would be too rude so let´s start with...Teyla.
I understand that Rachel really isn´t an oscar actress, but add to that terrible lines and stupid plot holes and there is one of the worst characters ever. Her lines like "What is happening" "Don´t do this" and so on, it was just...so awful. Michael, who I like, seemed dull in this episode. To give him a purpose just to take Teyla´s baby and make him some hybrid or whatever is a cliché, and what´s worse, not too well written cliché.

Carter - She has no dynamics, no chemistry with anyone, not even Rodney. I started to tolerate her but let´s just say she isn´t Elizabeth. No way she could be compared to Elizabeth. Elizabeth had chemistry with everyone and was a chain for them. Carter just asks Sheppard/anyone about his opinion and then agrees. That´s all. Her conversations with Sheppard are talks between two people who look like they really just work together, nothing more.
The most ridiculous scene was when Carson called her Samantha and asked HER about taking his letter to his mother! Give me a break! Rodney should have been the one to do it. He told his mother about Carson´s death. And Carter, technically, isn´t even Carson´s commander.
I think the big problem is that they deal with things that happened long time before Carter came and so all those things, and people just don´t affect her. Exclude her because how could she care about a man, clone, who she barely knows. It´s not Carter´s attitude to be hostile, I know that. But this seemed unnatural.

Just keep McKay, Sheppard and Ronon, get rid of the rest and, don´t try to put so called story-arc into three episodes of twenty :(

I looked forward to this double-episode. And now I am angry, disappointed and I want to kick something or someone.

I just hope that season finale will be better so I can say that from S4 were 3 episodes good instead of 2.:(

ShadowMaat
March 1st, 2008, 07:22 AM
Well, the fact that they aired separately and are called part 1 and part 2 kinda says that they're two episodes. ;) It's a bit of a cheat, but it's also nothing new.


I've always found it strange how SGA deals with character evolution. It's like theres an unwritten law that states if your character changes too much, you shall be demoted to guest star and disappear for half a season at a time.

Ford goes Supersoldier? Bumped from the cast and disappears.
Weir goes Replicator? Bumped from the cast and disappears.
Beckett goes clone? Bumped from the cast and indefinitely held in stasis.

They introduce these interesting new dynamics, only to completely ignore them and focus on the unaffected castmembers who've played the same damn traits for 4 years.
Amen to that, Clem. Although I think in Carson's case we'll be seeing him again, maybe even a lot more of him. Although I'd LMAO if they only did this to kill him off twice. ;)

I'd be more worried about Keller right now. She's getting bumped up to regular and the last time that happened, the character got killed off. *cough*Carson*cough* Granted, there seems to be a lot of Keller hate and many would probably welcome her death, but I think it'd be a bit of a rip-off, myself, especially if they only did it as an excuse to bring Carson back full time. I guess we'll have to wait and see, but right now I'm getting a strong Jonas vibe off her.

EDIT:


The most ridiculous scene was when Carson called her Samantha and asked HER about taking his letter to his mother! Give me a break! Rodney should have been the one to do it. He told his mother about Carson´s death.
Yeah, you're right. He should have asked Rodney or Shep. Or even Ronon. That would have been a funny- and touching- scene. Entrusting this big scary-ass warrior dude to deliver a message to his mum, probably with some comment about how "I think she'll like you" or maybe "Just try not to scare her too much. She's getting old, you know." LOL! And Ronon could look all big and awkward, promising to deliver it to her hands himself. hehe

jelgate
March 1st, 2008, 07:39 AM
Sorry but my Theory of Knowledge teacher is to blame :P. I had 3 years of critical thinking and it seems I ended up contaminated. One of the reasons I criticise a lot :P. Or it could be because I have a big mouth :D. ...you don't have to answer that :P:P

A little from column A, a little from column B.

kymeric
March 1st, 2008, 07:39 AM
Hollin! Carson!

Good ep, the ending make me sad. Carson being told how he die and then how wier died made me D: Loved the Rodney parts, loved how he stood up for carson.

Was kinda suprised hes a clone, but it keeps sunday valid while bringing back a character.

I agree with whoever said the little kids thing was fubar. Such an evil villan.

Did anyone else notcie carson didnt say goodbye to rodney?

Whoa at preview for next week!

MikeRasschaert
March 1st, 2008, 07:39 AM
I watched the episode and his being a clone felt forced. During his capture by Michael in Misbegotten, are we to believe that Michael had a plan all along to clone him when he drew some blood from him?
I find it weird that Michael came up with this genius idea while trying to find a way off the planet. He didn't knew that his fellow Wraith would turn on him at that point when he got back, and there weren't fond on experimenten on humans either.
It would have made more "sense" storywise to go the Daniel Jackson tour by ascending him and let him retake his human form, not on Atlantis but on another planet and was found by Michael. I think JM said in his blog that there were clues in "Sunday" on how he was to be brought back. I assumed he was talking of Carson being able to ascend and retake his human form, because he couldn't stand seeing people suffer and not be able to do anything about it. Than again, that has already been used when they brought back Daniel Jackson in season 7.
The chemistry between carson and the team was great. It felt like I was watching old episodes of Stargate Atlantis. But the plot of his clone going to die, is like reusing the plot of O'Neill's clone who wasn't perfect and going to die. It was like they were out of ideas there.
I mean, the Wraith can clone their warriors who function well, so why not humans?

Briangate78
March 1st, 2008, 07:44 AM
I don´t know where to start but this was...terrible. :( I am so damn disappointed and angry right now!

First of all - tptb can´t keep their mounth shut so they spoil everything. And what isn´t spoiled, it´s not simply true. Our Carson...yeah, sure.



Pretty harsh! :S No, I'm sorry VERY harsh. :mckay:

sweetsamurai
March 1st, 2008, 07:44 AM
I don´t know where to start but this was...terrible. :( I am so damn disappointed and angry right now!

First of all - tptb can´t keep their mounth shut so they spoil everything. And what isn´t spoiled, it´s not simply true. Our Carson...yeah, sure.

There are very few things I liked - Rodney, Carson and, suprisingly Keller.
Rodney was really affected by Beckett´s return and his scene with Carson, telling him about his death and about loss of Elizabeth, it was very well done. I think the huge share in this have David with Paul who were both great in whole episode.
What more did I like? Oh, yeah, Halling and his return from plot hole.
I also liked Sheppard and Ronon. They stood behind Rodney´s decision about Carson and Shep seemed to understand Rodney and just...was there, which was cool.

Then, that´s it. No more positives.

Negatives - can I say whole episode? But it would be too rude so let´s start with...Teyla.
I understand that Rachel really isn´t an oscar actress, but add to that terrible lines and stupid plot holes and there is one of the worst characters ever. Her lines like "What is happening" "Don´t do this" and so on, it was just...so awful. Michael, who I like, seemed dull in this episode. To give him a purpose just to take Teyla´s baby and make him some hybrid or whatever is a cliché, and what´s worse, not too well written cliché.

Carter - She has no dynamics, no chemistry with anyone, not even Rodney. I started to tolerate her but let´s just say she isn´t Elizabeth. No way she could be compared to Elizabeth. Elizabeth had chemistry with everyone and was a chain for them. Carter just asks Sheppard/anyone about his opinion and then agrees. That´s all. Her conversations with Sheppard are talks between two people who look like they really just work together, nothing more.
The most ridiculous scene was when Carson called her Samantha and asked HER about taking his letter to his mother! Give me a break! Rodney should have been the one to do it. He told his mother about Carson´s death. And Carter, technically, isn´t even Carson´s commander.
I think the big problem is that they deal with things that happened long time before Carter came and so all those things, and people just don´t affect her. Exclude her because how could she care about a man, clone, who she barely knows. It´s not Carter´s attitude to be hostile, I know that. But this seemed unnatural.

Just keep McKay, Sheppard and Ronon, get rid of the rest and, don´t try to put so called story-arc into three episodes of twenty :(

I looked forward to this double-episode. And now I am angry, disappointed and I want to kick something or someone.

I just hope that season finale will be better so I can say that from S4 were 3 episodes good instead of 2.:(

I completely agree with everything you said here.

I got angry so I had a workout on my punch bag if you want to use it? lol

lewismnflwr
March 1st, 2008, 07:54 AM
Over here in UK have only seen the 1st half of this ep and eeerrrrr......... I'm getting a bit frightened about what pt2 is going to be like !!!
Some of the bad comments I've been reading I can see my self sharing. So much about S4 has been dissappointing. Midway was fab !!! Loved the interaction tween Ronan and Teal'c.

I just wish tptb would stop messing with the show. leave the charactors and actors in the same place for more than one season !!!! Please

sweetsamurai
March 1st, 2008, 08:03 AM
Over here in UK have only seen the 1st half of this ep and eeerrrrr......... I'm getting a bit frightened about what pt2 is going to be like !!!
Some of the bad comments I've been reading I can see my self sharing. So much about S4 has been dissappointing. Midway was fab !!! Loved the interaction tween Ronan and Teal'c.

I just wish tptb would stop messing with the show. leave the charactors and actors in the same place for more than one season !!!! Please

Yes Midway, written by Carl Binder was excellent! I've watched that episode like 5 times!

Koshi700
March 1st, 2008, 08:05 AM
I'm just glad Carson's back. Although I was under the same impression as a lot of other people that Carson would be the original Carson and not a clone, I can live with the clone. I am very happy right now. As long as they do the rest of his story arc right, I'll remain very happy. I'm actually pretty excited about Season 5 now, where as before I was just kind of, "Yeah okay, I'll watch, but meh". I had a feeling Carson would bring back that old spark for me! :D This season, while moslty good, has felt empty without him. Even just the thought that he's not dead makes things better. I know, I'm weird. That's not news people! ;)

P-90_177
March 1st, 2008, 08:09 AM
That was a very good ep. I esspecially like the little moments between Carson and Rodney and Shep. Michael also seems to be more evil than ever.

jwillis77373
March 1st, 2008, 08:37 AM
Abscence makes the heart grow fonder.

It seems since Weir and Beckett left.. and with all the reluctance.. that the show has just gone no where.

Seeing them back was a fun treat.

Something has been lost since the early days of Stargate.. and the movie.. the surprise and wonder. Only in the darker side that people could be killed has the show recouped some of those elements and its only the darker side.. I don't watch shows merely for tragedy.

Sci Fi needs an element of Sci as well as Fi.. look at Numb3rs..

They need interesting guest stars too.. how about Michio Kaku? He would make a wonderful consultant or guest star in some minor roll.. some of the best appearances come from the supporting cast.

lewismnflwr
March 1st, 2008, 08:38 AM
Midway was classic loved watching the boys square against each other

MikeRasschaert
March 1st, 2008, 08:39 AM
actually the first 8 episodes were great, most notably Adrift, Lifeline, Missing, Doppelganger. The seer wasn't that bad and introduces us to a story-arc that could have spanned the rest of the season if done properly, but instead they chose to end it with episode 11 Ne All My sins Remember'd.
This Mortail Coil was not that good. Kindred part 1 wasn't that bad and part 2 is about the same with the flaws I mentioned before. I cal only hope JM and Paul Mullie got their act together and delivered a terrific season finale.

FN-P90
March 1st, 2008, 08:46 AM
I agree the finale has got to blow us away, and judjing by the trailers and spoilers i think it may do the job.

The.Road.Not.Taken
March 1st, 2008, 08:50 AM
I agree the finale has got to blow us away, and judjing by the trailers and spoilers i think it may do the job.

it defo will i hope:D

i enjoyed this episode the kindred part 2 but my question is how long will they leave him in the pod:(

MikeRasschaert
March 1st, 2008, 08:51 AM
Haven't seen the trailers, but from what I have read about it, don't know. I find it strange that something bad happens and it is always up to someone to change the timeline so the bad thing can't happen.
I'm not a real fan of timetravel episodes. They are so predictable. You always know in advance that whatever bad happens, they will fix it. I wish that they wouldn't use that kind of stories. To me, they suck.

AscendedTauri
March 1st, 2008, 09:49 AM
What the heck are people complaining about??? Oh, BOo Hoo.... Carson's a clone.... it makes WAY more sense than Michael soooome how having the time to clone Carson in 'Misbegotten', replacing the original, taking the original with him, and STILL managing to escape! All he had to do here was tag along a sample of DNA. I don't get it...... what, not enough stuff blow up? Maybe too emotional? Don't like Michael's very REAL acting? I don't get it. I'm sorry if I sound harsh, but for me, this episode was wayy powerful and extremely well done.

FoolishPleasure
March 1st, 2008, 09:53 AM
I'd be more worried about Keller right now. She's getting bumped up to regular and the last time that happened, the character got killed off. *cough*Carson*cough* Granted, there seems to be a lot of Keller hate and many would probably welcome her death, but I think it'd be a bit of a rip-off, myself, especially if they only did it as an excuse to bring Carson back full time.

TPTB could always have Keller admit she can't cut it, and she wants to go home. That way they don't have to kill her off, and we can be rid of the most boring character on the show. That would leave the door open for more Carson episodes as well. He doesn't have to be a reg, but appear like Zelenka, for example.

Demerzel
March 1st, 2008, 09:58 AM
Well.

While it was technically a good episode, I...didn't like it. Cloned Carson got me right out of the episode and till the end. I simply watched, and didn't care at all for what was happening.

Then the last scene hits, Ronon shows his emotional and caring side again and this was the only scene I actually enjoyed. I would have liked a Carson-Rodney hug, I mean come on, after the ending of Sunday and all, you'd expect more emotions in the air, but I guess the fact that it's Ronon who got the most emotional in the bunch shows that maybe he doesn't fully understand all the technical stuff and it's why he sees this Carson as the real one.

Disapointed. Very very much so. I was holding my breath for those two episodes, and honestly, they weren't that good. Midway remains my favorite despite all the plotholes. Dunno if it has to do with SG-1 being over now, but I find my passion for Stargate to be diminishing with almost every episode.

I would normally feel all hyped up about The Last Man, but if it continues this way, even that episode won't be that great. I'm going to go back to watching my Battlestar Galactica S2 DVD now, a show that is constantly good every single episode and not once in a while.

I can only hope for S5 of Atlantis, but then again, I was hoping the same before S4 aired.

Xicer
March 1st, 2008, 10:15 AM
I thought it was actually a pretty good episode, a big step up from part 1. Though I dunno why but Teyla's scenes were my least favorite. Anyway, it was great to see Carson again and I liked the idea of putting him in stasis. I swear it reminds me of some other scene in another TV show (not the Lost City thing from SG-1) but I can't put my finger on it...

LoneStar1836
March 1st, 2008, 10:19 AM
Carson!! :):) Loved the episode just for his return. I could care less about the mutant baby story.

I hated his death, and this return as a clone makes very little sense. Umm, he may be a clone but you can't replicate personalities, knowledge, etc. So I have to roll my eyes at that, but there are plenty of story plots in SGA that don't have much thought or rational behind them. I'm just glad to see Paul again. I've missed him. :(:mckay:

He and DH did a fine job in this episode. I especially liked the scenes they had together.

Rest of the episode was so-so.

Briangate78
March 1st, 2008, 10:36 AM
What the heck are people complaining about??? Oh, BOo Hoo.... Carson's a clone.... it makes WAY more sense than Michael soooome how having the time to clone Carson in 'Misbegotten', replacing the original, taking the original with him, and STILL managing to escape! All he had to do here was tag along a sample of DNA. I don't get it...... what, not enough stuff blow up? Maybe too emotional? Don't like Michael's very REAL acting? I don't get it. I'm sorry if I sound harsh, but for me, this episode was wayy powerful and extremely well done.

Totally agree. He is not some replicator clone. He is the real deal. :)

helio9
March 1st, 2008, 10:39 AM
Carson will be back, thats the point of the stasis pod instead of just killing him. They could easily have said that the stunner did so much damage to him in his weakened state that he died, but no...he's in stasis.

We know that the asgard were the experts on cloning...Thor was able to repair the damage done to the Jack O'Neill clone. Since we have their database and technology, it's reasonable to assume we have all the required technology to make it happen.

helio9
March 1st, 2008, 10:42 AM
Carson!! :):) Loved the episode just for his return. I could care less about the mutant baby story.

I hated his death, and this return as a clone makes very little sense. Umm, he may be a clone but you can't replicate personalities, knowledge, etc. So I have to roll my eyes at that, but there are plenty of story plots in SGA that don't have much thought or rational behind them. I'm just glad to see Paul again. I've missed him. :(:mckay:

He and DH did a fine job in this episode. I especially liked the scenes they had together.

Rest of the episode was so-so.
He was clearly able to implant the real Carson's memories into the clone. Genetically identical brain + memories and experiences = same person(ality). The Asgard who cloned O'Neill was able to do the same thing. There are plenty of irrational things in the plotline, but thats not one of them.

lewismnflwr
March 1st, 2008, 10:50 AM
Carson a clone ??? the one that died maybe - i mean how long did it take Loki to clone Jack - one night ???!!!! Ok so it didn't work prop but its made clear in Fragile Balance that Loki has done it before without people noticing - so adult humans cloned and grown in short space of time.

If Loki can do it - why can't Michael ????

LoneStar1836
March 1st, 2008, 10:52 AM
He was clearly able to implant the real Carson's memories into the clone. Genetically identical brain + memories and experiences = same person(ality). The Asgard who cloned O'Neill was able to do the same thing. There are plenty of irrational things in the plotline, but thats not one of them.
When did Michael get his hands on Asgard cloning tech (or comparable tech. Yes I know the Wraith have cloning tech, but is it really that advanced?))? And when did he actually have Carson available to implant those memories into a clone?

Sorry. Not buying it.

mokeh68
March 1st, 2008, 10:53 AM
Overall, I enjoyed this episode greatly, simply because of Carson's return and Paul McGillion's wonderful performance.

Although I understand the disappointment from some re: Carson being a clone, to me it was the most plausible way to bring him back. We were promised "our" Carson, in the flesh, and a clone with all of Beckett's memories and personality traits certainly fulfills that promise. I'm not sure how Michael would be able to recreate Carson's medical knowledge, as that's certainly NOT genetic, but hey! This is science fiction, and for the moment I'm willing to suspend disbelief to allow the plot point. Who knows, the wraith may have the technology to imprint or download the knowledge, although I don't know how Michael would have been able to have access to that technology in the short time he had the real Beckett in his clutches.... (reminding myself to suspend disbelief, heh.)

LOVED every McKay/Beckett scene. I thought Hewlett & McGillion both did a great job, and it was awesome to see them together again. Tangible proof that you can't fake on-screen chemistry as they have it naturally, in spades. I thought that McKay's readiness to accept Beckett back showed just how much he had missed Carson, and how desperately he wanted his best friend back. I liked his defense of him to Carter and Sheppard, and his unwillingness to let Carson go after Teyla in fear that he wouldn't survive the mission. Although I would have really liked to see a more emotional goodbye in the final scene between them (like a hug - that would have been fantastic) I do understand why it didn't happen, as Rodney isn't exactly the poster child for acknowledging his emotions in the first place, let alone demonstrating them in a normal, healthy way.

Now, I was *not* a fan of Carter's assignment to Atlantis going into the season, as I did not want to see SGA lose its own identity. However, the writers' treatment of her as more of a supporting character rather than a central focus has made me more accepting, and her presence there has actually grown on me. Having said that, I really didn't like her in this episode as I felt that her suspicions re: Carson were somewhat forced and overly done. And when she was voicing her suspicions after the team returned from the addy that Carson had given them and Keller told them over the radio that there was a problem with Dr. Beckett, she gave them a "See? Told you so!" look that I found annoying and generally out of character for Carter. It made her emotion in the final scene less convincing, although she could have been emotional out regret for her distrust, but it just didn't ring true for me.

I am anti-Keller. I'll state that up front. However, she had decent chemistry with Beckett, although McGillion acted circles around Staite, but then he pretty much acted circles around the entire cast IMO throughout the episode. There is something I've noticed with Staite's portrayal - whenever she's in a situation where she's uncertain, she has this way of responding with a chirpy, perky, "Okay!" or "Sure!" that does a really good job of demonstrating her unease and attempt to cover it up. She did it in the first scene when Beckett tells her to run a specific test as Michael had been injecting him weekly, and I felt it was a nice bit of character consistency on Staite's part. Still want Keller to go away, but have to give her props for her moments of consistency, rare as they are. I don't have a problem with her initial reaction to Michael's spy - she's only human, and I'm sure it was a shock to see the guy. And she did act like the doctor she's supposed to be once they got him to the infirmary. I have to say that that scene was great for the simple reason that Beckett just took over, shouting out orders and I LOVED it that no one questioned him. His staff just did what he said with no hesitation, despite the fact that he was a clone and their Carson had been dead for almost a year. LOVED it!

And I have to say it: Yay! Halling! I've missed him... I just like the guy, don't know why. He has such a wonderful presence about him. I'm glad they didn't kill him off.

This is already a long post, so I don't want to get into my whole dissatisfaction with the way Teyla was portrayed and written in this episode. I'm going to cut her some slack due to her delicate condition, heh. However, if you're basically days away from giving birth, you're captured by an enemy that has very ominous plans for your child and someone comes to rescue you, holy hannah, woman! Shut up and go! Think of your child first - THAT's absolutely your first priority! That scene just didn't work for me at all, especially coming after Teyla's converation with Lorne where she admitted that she needed to prioritize her child over herself and her team members and she hadn't been doing that. To me that was a demonstration of the writer's lack of consistency between episdoes to, once again, force the plot in a specific direction.

So, despite the poor Teyla writing, I thought it was a very enjoyable episode that had me at the edge of my seat, and a really wonderful episode for Beckett.

ginsoakedsot
March 1st, 2008, 11:22 AM
So happy to see Halling again! I'm sure Jinto is just off playing with Wex (although they'd be about 16 by now).
And did anyone else see the Aqua Velva commercial during the episode? Made me laugh!
Back to Halling's hair - Chris shaved it for Sanctuary, but it was starting to come in for his Smallville episode. Think he shaved it again for the upcoming tv eps of Sanctuary? (which I didn't think were in production yet)
Or maybe it was because of lice. :-)

PS: This is my first post - thanks for letting me play!

Amakusa
March 1st, 2008, 11:22 AM
I hated his death, and this return as a clone makes very little sense. Umm, he may be a clone but you can't replicate personalities, knowledge, etc. So I have to roll my eyes at that

They did that plenty of times in SG-1 that it doesn't even matter anymore.

Having Carson back was fine, but I did notice he was missing his old scruffy beard, and that was kind of distracting. Wasn't terribly surprised they froze him O'neill-style, though, as I suppose they needed to figure out some way to keep him around.

I'm actually rather indifferent toward Dr. Kellar (interesting to note I have no idea what her first name is); she's just kind of there. She doesn't stand out to me like she does to other people here, which is just fine, because I don't watch to see what she does (I think that is reserved for Todd the Wraith, who more or less steals every scene he's in).

Also rather indifferent to the Teyla storyline. And perhaps to Michael the half-Wraith in general because he seems kind of ridiculous in how Atlantis happened to pick the James Bond of Wraiths to be their test subject (although I appreciate the irony in how he turned the tables to his 'creator,' Dr. Beckett).

lewismnflwr
March 1st, 2008, 11:32 AM
welcome Ginsoakedsot. I'm new myself !!!

loving your screen name - have a GT in my hand at the mo and ya made me laugh !!!

A little of topic, SGA or SG1 as a fave ????

On this ep - i've only seen pt1 so i have limited comments

JackHarkness_Hot
March 1st, 2008, 11:36 AM
I thought this episode was alright, I didn't find it orgasmically good or anything but still, quite entertaining to watch.

I wonder what happened to Jinto...


Plus, I love the final scene when Carson was placed into a stasis pod, brilliant scene and one of my all time fave now! Also, who was the cute guy by the console behind Carter, he's cute! :D

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/CAPTX/Heycutiescientist.png
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/CAPTX/Heycutiescientist2.png

I decided to take the initiative to nickname him Mr. McCutie... :D He can look at me like that [2nd pic] anytime! LOL!!

lewismnflwr
March 1st, 2008, 11:37 AM
cute guy ??? How cute ??? Will keep my eyes open on Tuesday when I get to see this ep

Jonzey
March 1st, 2008, 11:52 AM
I thought it was a good episode. Started a little slow but picked up in the second half. It felt kinda different from other Stargates though, I'm not sure how. Kinda darker- with Michaels insane, twisted experiments (though I do miss the bug people- was nice to have alieny looking enemies), the standoff between Carson and Michael, and Michael getting away with Teyla.

This storyline's got really interesting. I just hope the baby doesn't ruin it- I'm not a fan of babies on TV shows. But I reckon the only way this storyline should end is with Carson killing Michael- after all, Carson created Michael, then Michael created Carson (clone). I just hope he doesn't die in the process.

JackHarkness_Hot
March 1st, 2008, 11:53 AM
cute guy ??? How cute ??? Will keep my eyes open on Tuesday when I get to see this ep

Added the pics :D

sueKay
March 1st, 2008, 11:56 AM
This is the first episode of Atlantis that has ever made me cry!!

lewismnflwr
March 1st, 2008, 11:57 AM
J H H HELP !!!! want to see pic. only been on this thing 3 days - no clue !!!!!!

JackHarkness_Hot
March 1st, 2008, 11:59 AM
J H H HELP !!!! want to see pic. only been on this thing 3 days - no clue !!!!!!

Do you not see this -->

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/CAPTX/Heycutiescientist.png

The cute guy behind Carter!! :D

lewismnflwr
March 1st, 2008, 12:00 PM
OOOHHHHH Just looked back at the other posts

DUH !!!! In my defence - and for the record - I'm a natural blonde. and sometimes it shows !!!!

Integrabyte
March 1st, 2008, 12:00 PM
This is the first episode of Atlantis that has ever made me cry!!

There is always a first time. Need a hug? :P

lewismnflwr
March 1st, 2008, 12:02 PM
nice - nothing compaired to MS !!!! but easy on the eyes !!!

JackHarkness_Hot
March 1st, 2008, 12:02 PM
OOOHHHHH Just looked back at the other posts

DUH !!!! In my defence - and for the record - I'm a natural blonde. and sometimes it shows !!!!

Awww, it's okay :lol:


Hey I'm a guy who happens to like men and explosions :P

JackHarkness_Hot
March 1st, 2008, 12:04 PM
nice - nothing compaired to MS !!!! but easy on the eyes !!!

Meh, MS can be a bit too much sometimes, I feel like wanting to zat him a couple of times... lol

Integrabyte
March 1st, 2008, 12:05 PM
Meh, MS can be a bit too much sometimes, I feel like wanting to zat him a couple of times... lol

...after you handcuff him to the bed? :P



Where is this thread headin` ....? :P

JackHarkness_Hot
March 1st, 2008, 12:07 PM
...after you handcuff him to the bed? :P



Where is this thread headin` ....? :P

TBH, I wouldn't mind having him handcuffed, should be "fun". ;)

lewismnflwr
March 1st, 2008, 12:07 PM
well MS lush on screan but met him last year and wow !!!! Had my 4 year old nephew with me in the q for a signed pic. Little K shouted ( top volume for a 4 year old) "look Stargate Man " and pointed at MS. MS laughed and waved at K !!! Brill !!! cute and good with kids. Yum !!!

lewismnflwr
March 1st, 2008, 12:09 PM
MS tied to bed sounds good as well !!!

JackHarkness_Hot
March 1st, 2008, 12:12 PM
A "straight" guy ( :lol: ) who is good with kids... good quality in a man.

You gals could make out with MS, though pls do inform me when you gals begin to play with him, I certainly do love watching. While you're busy, I sure would love to play with that Cutie Extra Scientist aka Mr. McCutie!

lewismnflwr
March 1st, 2008, 12:16 PM
lol J H H love ya !!!

If i ever get that close to MS I'll be sure to let ya know !!! (i'd want pic's of him so i'd share them - just to be fair !!!)

JackHarkness_Hot
March 1st, 2008, 12:23 PM
:lol:


When you do, give an extra squeeze at the butt ;)

ShadowMaat
March 1st, 2008, 12:25 PM
I'm calling him Dr. McBroody and I hope we see him again. :D Well, not that I'll be watching but I can ogle screencaps in the thunk thread someone is sure to start for him. ;)

It isn't Chuck, right? 'cos I suck at identifying people.

lewismnflwr
March 1st, 2008, 12:31 PM
nope - not chuck !!! But Chuck is sweet looking !!!

And you just try and stop me squeezing that ........ uuummmmm please give me a min here

JackHarkness_Hot
March 1st, 2008, 12:35 PM
Chuck is too sweet looking, he's like a little twinkie :lol: he needs more meat or tighter clothes..

Chuck is Atlantis' answer to Walter, lol

Dr. McBroody??? Nooo!! It's Mr. McCutie!

Integrabyte
March 1st, 2008, 12:37 PM
Why not create a new Topic for your cheesburger? :P

JackHarkness_Hot
March 1st, 2008, 12:40 PM
Cheeseburger?? :O

You missy! That McCutie is a normal looking guy that is obtainable plus uber cute! :lol:

Jumper_One
March 1st, 2008, 12:42 PM
I already rewatched this ep like 4 times and what can I say? woohoo Carson :D

this was certainly one of the best eps of s4. seeing Carson again was great, even though he’s just a clone. I wasn’t really disppointed at this revelation because 1) this couldn’t just be it, there had to be something else the base could do about this and 2) spoilers for TLM suggest that Shep will change certain things and this ep, even though being Part 2 was also a set up for TLM. I liked the fact that Carson mentioned his mom and how she’d react, classic Carson and I really missed that. Rodney’s being a true friend throughout the ep but he doesn’t want to face the fact that they might never find a cure

this was another ep that showed Sam’s leadership skills imo. she didn’t know Carson like the rest of the team/base so it was a lot easier for her to remain calm and focused (as opposed to Rodney). I really enjoyed the references to DH’s movie ‘A Dog’s Breakfast’ and of course ‘Sunday’. JF’s kids were supposed to be in this ep right? were they the two children that stormed out of the room with the other Athosians? also Shep’s answer to the bad guy’s statement he wouldn’t be safe anywhere in this galaxy was pretty cool imo :D the funniest thing happened during the meeting after Carson had left and they were discussing if he needed to come along. Shep (to Rodney) ‘you would do the same’, everybody’s looking at McKay and it’s kinda awkward :P

Michael’s scenes were really creepy (the machines didn’t really help), the way he likes it. I thought it was awesome when he told his followers ‘take her to the ship, we’re leaving’ wow :D and was so hoping he’d shoot Carson, it would’ve been another task for Shep to solve in TLM/The Seed. two things I didn’t like (or at least am not sure about, I gotta rewatch the ep once more) was when Keller called Carson by his first name and how he did the same at the end while talking to Sam. maybe it’s just me but it seemed kinda odd :S anyway the last scene is LC all over again and it was great to see Sam’s face (as if Jack was frozen again)

I would’ve liked if someone had mentioned the Asgard (cloning, hello ;)) and maybe a reference to LC. however this didn’t make the ep less enjoyable. it was an awesome second part (and with Carson woohoo :D) and I’m really looking forward to the events of TLM :)

lewismnflwr
March 1st, 2008, 12:42 PM
But with hair !!!!

lewismnflwr
March 1st, 2008, 12:46 PM
the more opinions i read the more i look forward to tues and seeing this - got me dad staying though - will have ta use gaffa tape on his mouth to shut him and let me see and hear the whole ep !!! LOL

JackHarkness_Hot
March 1st, 2008, 12:46 PM
But with hair !!!!

What are you thinking about?? :lol:

lewismnflwr
March 1st, 2008, 12:49 PM
Walter - he's bald !!!!

You know what they say about bald men................


Worrying !!!!

Integrabyte
March 1st, 2008, 12:52 PM
Cheeseburger?? :O

You missy! That McCutie is a normal looking guy that is obtainable plus uber cute! :lol:

Did you just call me woman...woman? :P

JackHarkness_Hot
March 1st, 2008, 01:02 PM
Aren't you a woman?

If not, I'm sorry... lol

Integrabyte
March 1st, 2008, 01:03 PM
Aren't you a woman?

If not, I'm sorry... lol


I wasn't last time I checked. But if you want, I'll check again, just for you :P

1138
March 1st, 2008, 01:07 PM
Regarding that enzyme which Carson needs, anyone think that the Asgard matter converter on the Odyssey would work?



1) Dude who tried to ambush them (can't recall his name), he's going to Earth? Umm, what? We have no idea what Michael did to him genetically, are we really sure we want to be poisoning our own gene pool? Personally, I'd love to have Wraith DNA, but the whole losing my free will thing...


I'd download his consciousness into one of those Aurora VR stasis pods and get rid of his body. Someone needs to keep Ava company. In fact, that system could become their prison for inconvenient people.

lewismnflwr
March 1st, 2008, 01:08 PM
Am I the only girl here ????

lewismnflwr
March 1st, 2008, 01:13 PM
enzime - i'm thinking Ford and the way TPTB handled him. Yuck !! I want better for Carson.


VR statis could be a bit too cruel (depending on who choses the VR program) - though think of the poss'

VR world where we all think Stargate is a sci - fi show..........

JackHarkness_Hot
March 1st, 2008, 01:25 PM
I wasn't last time I checked. But if you want, I'll check again, just for you :P

Well, would you like me to kiss and make it up to ya? ;)


:lol:

JackHarkness_Hot
March 1st, 2008, 01:26 PM
Am I the only girl here ????

Hey think of it this way, more MS for ya, lol

Integrabyte
March 1st, 2008, 01:26 PM
Well, would you like me to kiss and make it up to ya? ;)


:lol:


You don't even want to know where my mind wandered when I read that post :P.....:o:o:o

JackHarkness_Hot
March 1st, 2008, 01:28 PM
I am very good at what I do.. and if you're asking yourself, what is it I do best, you can find out... ;) :P

lewismnflwr
March 1st, 2008, 01:32 PM
YAY MS is so mine !!!! YIPPIE !!!!


OOOHhhhhh and Fantaby MS in SGA !!! Total YAY

gkyun
March 1st, 2008, 02:01 PM
While I appreciate what TPTB tried to do in this ep and the last one with all these 'ship moments, I was utterly bored to death throughout TBH.

There wasn't anything that particularly drew my attention save for a few shoot-outs here and there. Granted Carson's back, but the whole time I was sitting at the couch thinking I couldn't care less. I was quite looking forward to Michael's return as well but again I was disappointed by the little screen time he had and his lack of conviction when he was confronting Teyla (no offense Connor Trinneer). It just didn't hit the right marks for me.

Even though I don't tend to criticise eps I'd have to say The Kindred was the worse two-parter in the series.

cabouse18
March 1st, 2008, 02:11 PM
While I appreciate what TPTB tried to do in this ep and the last one with all these 'ship moments, I was utterly bored to death throughout TBH.

There wasn't anything that particularly drew my attention save for a few shoot-outs here and there. Granted Carson's back, but the whole time I was sitting at the couch thinking I couldn't care less. I was quite looking forward to Michael's return as well but again I was disappointed by the little screen time he had and his lack of conviction when he was confronting Teyla (no offense Connor Trinneer). It just didn't hit the right marks for me.

Even though I don't tend to criticise eps I'd have to say The Kindred was the worse two-parter in the series.

I like the ep and thought it was good but at times it did lag and for a conclusion ep for a two parter it was a little bleh in that repsect. It ended in a whimper (nothing against Carson or him being back) not a bang like other two parters.

MerryK
March 1st, 2008, 02:56 PM
I'm not usually as fond of two-parters (including finales/premieres) as I am of standalones, and this one was no different. Very moving, but not on my list of favorites. I did realize why I liked Keller while watching this: she's not Beckett, and she doesn't try to be. Her personality is not as loud, her choices less passion-driven (though her focus sometimes falters). She reminds me of someone I know, and as I also know someone rather like Beckett, it's hard for me to understand why anyone wouldn't like both. :)

Willow'sCat
March 1st, 2008, 03:14 PM
What the heck are people complaining about??? Oh, BOo Hoo.... Carson's a clone.... it makes WAY more sense than Michael soooome how having the time to clone Carson in 'Misbegotten', replacing the original, taking the original with him, and STILL managing to escape! All he had to do here was tag along a sample of DNA. I don't get it...... what, not enough stuff blow up? Maybe too emotional? Don't like Michael's very REAL acting? I don't get it. I'm sorry if I sound harsh, but for me, this episode was wayy powerful and extremely well done.Well for me it was bad, stupid and makes no sense out side of pandering to a vocal part of fandom.

Carson is a thing now, he is not real... people can go on and on about him being flesh and blood but he is NOT Carson he is a clone, he just isn't Carson. We are more then our DNA!

A bad bad episode. *slaps it with rolled up news paper* :P

Killdeer
March 1st, 2008, 03:54 PM
Well for me it was bad, stupid and makes no sense out side of pandering to a vocal part of fandom.

Carson is a thing now, he is not real... people can go on and on about him being flesh and blood but he is NOT Carson he is a clone, he just isn't Carson. We are more then our DNA!

A bad bad episode. *slaps it with rolled up news paper* :P

This may not be our Carson, but I don't know that I would say it's "a thing". I think a cloned person would be just as much of a person as a person created the normal way. It wouldn't be the SAME person, because the whole transfer of memory thing doesn't work in real life. But can we say a cloned sheep is not a sheep because it was cloned instead of birthed?

Killdeer
March 1st, 2008, 04:04 PM
As far as the episode goes, I was rather unimpressed. I don't really have a lot to say though. These were the two episodes I was most looking forward to this half of the season, and both were a disappointment.

A good episode for Rodney, and for Carson. I really wish they had never killed him off.

I wasn't so impressed with anything else, or really anyone else. Except the scene with JF's kids-that was cute. And it was nice to see Halling again, although I prefer CH as Todd. And Teyla.....

I'm really trying to give Teyla a break because I know these were Rachel's last days of filming before her baby was born, and so I'm sure she couldn't do a lot of active stuff. But she ended up looking completely helpless here. Maybe she couldn't do the active stuff, but what happened to those super mind control powers that we saw back in SoW? I would have thought she would have at least tried to control Michael, especially when her son was at risk. But we never saw her even try. There should have been something....something to make her look not so much like the "damsel in distress." And her refusing to leave when Carson came for her...that was completely stupid. There were ways to write that scene without making her look so foolish (I think someone else has already mentioned that).

*sigh* Oh well.

EDIT: I forgot to say - I did really like the ending scene. It was very good, and poor Rodney. :( And Ronon with his hug, and Sheppard.... I actually didn't mind Carson telling Sam about the letter. As the commander of the base, she would have to authorize that letter getting back to his mother, so I think that was just him sweettalking her into letting it happen.

I am very glad to have some version of Carson back. He's a very strong character, and I think he added a lot to the show. I'm still disappointed that he's (S5 spoilers) only going to be in five episodes next season. But maybe it'll turn out to be more. Jewel was only going to be in eight episodes at first and it turned out to be eleven.

EDIT2: Oh - hey! Whatever happened to that super plague that was sweeping the galaxy last episode? We didn't even get a mention of it!

Lord batchi ball
March 1st, 2008, 04:06 PM
This episode was average:S I was expecting a lot more out of this episode. IMHO last weeks episode was much better.

I liked seeing Carson, and I am glad they didn't put a bomb in his chest or somthing that would have been stupid.

Liked the comment made by Carson: "I feel like a Dogs' Breakfast" that would pretain to David Hewletts movie. kind of made me laugh.

I thought the control that Carson could'nt kill Mike was pretty sweet. So does that mean that Carson could communicate with the Wraith or is it a one way streak?

But overall a average 7/10 rating.

Briangate78
March 1st, 2008, 04:33 PM
This episode goes up there with Lifeline and Midway, imo. It was not the best ep of the season but it was likely in most people's top 5! Carson returning was very well done by the writers. It was not done in a cheap and lazy way and it truly makes the show stand as a Sci Fi show with the whole cloning bit. I am just confuzzled to what some people were expecting. I wanted 5 things to happen...

1.) Mention of Weir being dead

2.) A scene where Teyla and Carson come face to face( Wow could not get better than that)

3.) An ending what would not be all happy joy joy, and the team still needing to search for Teyla and truly strike up an amazing season finale.

4.) Carson's return done in a clever way and not cheap.

5.) The emotions of the characters seeing Carson or some kind of Carson alive ( Simply Brilliant)

Did these all happen? Yes they did to me. I am happy and loved this episode for that!

LiLTiff17
March 1st, 2008, 04:39 PM
I am not a Keller fan at all, but that is a REALLY idealized view of doctors. They are human, and react as individuals, some brave and selfless, some not so much. And most (in the US anyway) do pick and choose their patients. In many cases you are spit out of luck if you don't have insurance. :(
Yes I am not a Keller fan either, nor can I say though that I completely despise the character. That being said even if I did hate Keller with all my being, it doesn't change the fact that Keller IS human and her reaction was normal, for a doctor, for an individual.
She wasn't treating a president, average joe, or a random killer, drugdealer etc, she was treating a man who tried to kill HER and Teyla. Of course she wasn't expecting that and it immobilized her for the equivalent of 5 seconds, then she got back to her senses and got back to work and treated him as she would any other patient. I am 100 percent sure that some doctors, oath or not would have refused to treat a person who endangered/tried to take the life of them or their friend, or certainly wouldn't have put their best foot forward in regards to treatment. If once Keller noticed him and she mumbled 'oh, its the guy who tried to kill us' and just went on as normal, THAT would have been ridiculous and totally unbelievable. She got momentarily thrown off, then got back on track right away and did what she had to do.
Also she was faced with the possibility of having to kill him back on New Athos, the guy mocked her claiming that she as a doctor who was suppose to protect life not take it. Her being the good doctor/person who didn't want to kill anyone didn't. She did temporarily immobilize him though.;)

Basically I don't understand how else she would have initially reacted upon seeing a man who tried to kill her.

PG15
March 1st, 2008, 04:56 PM
CAAAAAAAAAAARSOOOOOOOOOOOOOON!!!!

:D :D :D

Awesome episode! There was a great mix of action and character moments (specfically, McKay-Carson, which was just sweetness), but it all really comes down to Carson. This was his episode, his spotlight, and what a performance PM gave! So let's start with that.

The opening exposition scene between Carson and Rodney was just hard to watch, namely because it must have been torture for both characters to basically recount some horrible events and coming to terms with what has happened. I loved seeing how the pieces all fit together with regards to this Carson's existence. And then, of course, it was just one piece of bad news after another. Seeing Carson miffed like he was after hearing that his mom thought him dead was just the icing on the cake; an excellent way to reintroduce the Carson personality back into the character, and to remind us of the person he was (he's a mama's boy :D). And then, and I was hoping they would do it, they mentioned Weir. Fantastic. Like I said, both McKay and Carson must've hated this conversation; it's no wonder the former waited so long to do it (I don't buy his "we're all very busy" excuse).

And I gotta love that "God, it's good to see you!" from Rodney at the beginning. No doubt it was really David Hewlett talking to Paul McGillion, if you know what I mean.

Then finally, there was that sad line from Carson, "now for the better part of 2 years, I imagined what would be like the day I finally got back to Atlantis...this isn't exactly how I pictured it". Superb line, superb delivery, superb sad music. It really makes you think about everything he has had to endure during those 2 years spent with Michael while hanging on that miniscule hope that, one day, his friends will burst through the door and get him out of that hellhole. Hopefully this will be capitalized on in the future.

But really, the thing I loved the most about this episode is the scenes between Rodney and Carson, which I think was really the centerpiece here. From the beginning, you can tell that Rodney is thinking less-than-logically, and for good reason. In his own words, one of his best friends ever has come back from the dead! His absolute denial of the truths in Carson's words in the scene where the latter discovers his true past was really telling; Rodney looked like a kid on the morning of Christmas Day. Then, thoughout the rest of the episode, he had to deal with the fact that his best friend is dying...again. I think this is reason enough for him seeming on the edge for most of the episode. Speaking from personal experience (and I consider myself to be pretty close to Rodney, hence the avatar ;)), being blindsided by something like this could really confuse and disturb you. You want to like what's happened, but you also know there's a little niggle at the back of your head telling you that this is too good to be true, and it was, in this case. Rodney's snapping at Sam about how they're treating Carson was just the perfect example of this; normally, he wouldn't have been this crass to Sam, but this was Carson we're talking about, and his mind was rather preoccupied with that. And then, the wonderful scene where a desperate Rodney pleads with Carson to not go, and having the latter say to Rodney what he told him earlier...just great. Again, Rodney doesn't want him to go, but he doesn't want to keep Carson from doing what he want either. Major confusion there. Brilliantly played.

The interactions between Carson and Keller were interesting to watch. It now seems obvious just how different, and yet similar Carson and Keller are. Keller kind of remind me of Elliot from Scrubs. When she's not doing doctor duties, she acts just like any other person. She has flaws and quirks that not everyone may like, but that's just how she is. The moment that she needs to be a doctor though, she comes alive and becomes purely professional, as shown by the scene where she was getting ready to treat Nable. Carson, on the other hand, has the experience, and is thus very steady even when he's not being a doctor. There is no doubt that there are fundamental differences between the two people, but if it were an emergency, I wouldn't be bothered if my doctor was Keller instead of Beckett, or vice versa. Both have the skillz, as far as I'm concerned.

And then there was the ending. I loved it, though unlike some past moments it didn't make me misty-eyed (though my lowering lip was quivering a little). Some have said that this was almost over the top. Well, I think that was the point. This is the goodbyes they never got in Sunday. Carson was telling them to do a few things for him - something they didn't do in Sunday; they never went fishing with him despite his suggestions. But this time, they won't take his pleas for granted anymore. Sheppard's promise was powerful, and so was the hug from Ronon, which was just so Ronon given that almost nothing was really said; everything was action. Then Rodney, who as I have said, was just trying, the entire episode, to comprehend how he felt about all of this. His babbling near the end was precisely the result of that, trying to convince Carson and himself that everything was going to be alright. And that final pull-out...CAAAAAAAARSOOOON!!! :(

Oh, but he'll be back! :D

Alright, moving on. Obviously there was the other plot in this episode, namely Teyla's story. Some have said that she was being overdramatic. I don't agree, based simply on the fact that this was truly a horrible situation to be stuck in. She is literally stuck with a maniac attempting God knows what experiments on her people and soon, herself and her child! I have no doubt that every one of my words would be filled with stress and fear if I were to talk in that situation. Rachel did a great job here showing just how afraid she is at what's about to happen to her.

I loved her reunion wth the Athosians; seeing Halling again was wonderful, but slightly tempered by the fact that I knew him much better as Todd. Still, the man's brilliance shone through when he went and defended Teyla, and then yelled with anger and fear when she was taken away at the end. I felt for him, I really did. It was great to see though, at the end, when they were freed.

The focus of Teyla's story is, of course, with Michael. Though I gotta give props to the subtle bit with Kanaan before Mikey first appeared. Even though we don't know him that well, seeing Teyla's relationship with him and seeing him struggling, no matter how acutely, with Michael's mind control, is really something worth rooting for. Here's to more Kanaan conflict in Season 5!

Finally, we have Michael. I love LOVE LOVE how he's always 1 step ahead of our heroes; the fact that he knew they were coming, that he had programmed into all of his creations to not hurt him, etc. Then there is his absolute cold-heartedness with regards to life, which if you think about it, is probably because of us. We treated him as an experiment, and now he's treating us like one. We got him onto this terrible road. It spared him no guilt to murder an innocent girl, and certainly none when he killed off dozens of people near the end of the episode. After all, they were just...experiments. Cold, demented, and brilliant; that's the kind of villain I love, and Michael is perfect. It also doesn't hurt that he's Trip! :D I can't wait to see more of him next season. Hopefully he won't be killed off so fast...or at least, if he should die, give him something spectacular!

Oh, and...A DOG'S BREAKFAST!!!! I was watching this on a computer, so when that came up, I just guffawed. Not that it was particularly funny, but I just LOVE it when a quirky little reference like this come up, especially when it's so in-joke-worthy! In fact, I had to pause the episode and clap, just because it was so...AWESOME. :D

Lastly, I just like to mention the shootout near the end of the episode. It wasn't just your typical affair, because of the direction. I loved how they did a few sweeping shots, which I love, like the one where it closes in on Shep from above, and later when they're leaving the building, when they swept across the stairs as the team ran down it. Those are the shots that give the show a cinematic feeling. Loved it.

So overall, not a particularly action-filled 2 parter, but certainly a lot of answers and plots given and tied up, and plenty more set sailed. There were character moments galore, and we got to see Carson again after a year of being missing from our screens. While The Kindred may not be the best 2-parter out there, it's certainly entertained me enough for me to give it...

Score: 10/10

Now let's see The Last Man top this...which I think it can (even if, technically, it can't ;)).

gatechick
March 1st, 2008, 05:16 PM
Am I the only girl here ????


I'm with you here!!!! :)


:sheppard::sam::ronan::teyla::mckay:

Shipperahoy
March 1st, 2008, 05:18 PM
There were a couple of really nice moments in this episode and it kept me watching throughout but it mostly seemed kind of like filler until the big finale. When nothing much happened in Kindred 1 I didn't really mind because I figured that they were saving it for part 2 but not much really happened in this one either. Not much changed with Teyla. She's still captured, preggers, and Michael's still trying to get her baby. In a repeat of the end scene of part 1 the team almost rescues her only to have Michael fly off with her yet again. We did learn that her convenient plot line of a baby daddy may still be in there somewhere behind all that make-up so there's that.

Then there's Carson. I am so glad to have had him back that even the kind of cliche cloning plot couldn't ruin how nice it was to see, and hear, him again. I actually loved how the team reacted to Clone Carson. Each person had their own individual reaction and those interaction were the best parts of the episode for me. McKay was actually endearing to me in this episode in his almost desperate attempt to pretend that Carson was going to be fine and I love that one of the most skeptical people on Atlantis was so quick to embrace clone Carson.

Then there was Ronan. I actually got choked up a bit at the end when Ronan admitted that losing Carson all over again was what he'd been afraid of and thus why he'd ignored him since his return. Carson's "big man" comment and the hug just cemented it. It was very moving.

Willow'sCat
March 1st, 2008, 05:32 PM
Well Carson is a thing to me. And one of the reasons I really think this is a bad episode is because McKay was so out of character, the man has let his guilt and grief blind him *obviously* that is the only explanation for him being so quick to stand up for this thing called Carson.:rolleyes:

What would have been better imho is to have the one person who could be excused for being skeptical about this actually be bloody skeptical about it!

Also why did Teyla just stand there like an idiot! Why did she risk her child's life by waiting for Kannan? That is another totally out of character moment and I cannot forgive it. :cool: Teyla is so much smarter, and more in control of her emotions, then that. :cool::rolleyes:

This was a story where they needed to bring Carson back but the way they did it was far from original, entertaining or thought provoking.

*shakes head*

gatechick
March 1st, 2008, 05:39 PM
[QUOTE=Willow'sCat;7828248]
Also why did Teyla just stand there like an idiot! Why did she risk her child's life by waiting for Kannan? That is another totally out of character moment and I cannot forgive it. :cool: Teyla is so much smarter, and more in control of her emotions, then that. :cool::rolleyes:
[QUOTE]

Although I also wanted to shake Teyla for doing that, in a way I guess it was to show how emotional she had become. She really wants her child's father to be with her and her son. Seeing him like that may have really rocked her and thrown her, so that she just was not thinking. Besides, it wouldn't give the Atlantis team anything to next week. ;)

Willow'sCat
March 1st, 2008, 05:47 PM
Although I also wanted to shake Teyla for doing that, in a way I guess it was to show how emotional she had become. She really wants her child's father to be with her and her son. Seeing him like that may have really rocked her and thrown her, so that she just was not thinking. Besides, it wouldn't give the Atlantis team anything to next week. ;)Hmm, next week? I think more like season two opener. ;) *edit* OK so I have had a hard day...morning... whatever! Season 5! Is what I meant to say. :P

And I know, it is the same reason Carson is there to rescue her... the one guy Michael can control with his mind. *makes spooky wavy hands*

I just tire of all these blatant set ups. :cool: I would love to actually not see it coming for a change. :rolleyes:

Shipperahoy
March 1st, 2008, 05:54 PM
Yeah, you'd think Teyla would want to get her baby the heck out of there but I can see how she'd want to try to save the convenient plot line...err Kanaan. This isn't the first time this season that she's made some pretty sketchy decisions regarding the safety of her unborn child.

I agree that the clone thing isn't very original or creative but there are only so many ways that they could have brought Carson back from the dead and at least this way he figured in to Michael's experiments. I can also see why McKay would be so happy to have Carson back, clone or not so his behavior didn't seem to terribly out of line to me. Even scientists can be effected by their emotions sometimes.

PG15
March 1st, 2008, 05:55 PM
I can sort of understand where folks are coming from with all the Keller hate since it isn't easy to see your favorite character replaced, never mind having him replaced with a Buxom Young Thang,

Jewel Staite is not buxom. :p

Jeyla4ever
March 1st, 2008, 06:28 PM
I"m a bit dissapointed in this episode. For some reason I expected it to be better than Kindred 1 but for me, it wasn't.

I think the whole Carson plot should have been in its own episode but it was nicely tied there when Carson went for Teyla.

Loved that!!!

Very well done by both actors!

I read that some are giving Teyla the run around for her decision to go after Kanan! Although I have not seen any "love" from Teyla, it was nice to see some reaction from Kanan. At the very least, there is some connection there but not much from Teyla and I wonder if the writers will delve a bit more into the reasons for this because Teyla deserves better and we know she can show a lot more emotion than what this reunion has shown in her.

But going back to the whole Teyla going after Kanan and risking her baby. Well, there's a couple of things here, first...Teyla has seen and witness first hand what it feels like to be without one parent, and two parents. I'm assuming that her mom wasn't around much and dad played a bigger role for Teyla. She has also seen Athosian children go through the same thing. So, this has to be important for her. For any woman going through this, a father's role is critical even if there's no love there, you want that father figure in your child's life. That's normal! Second, I strongly believe that Teyla would have gone not just for Kanan but if it had been her people there in the Hive Ship, I'd like to think that she would have done the same for them as well. This is the same woman that only a couple of weeks ago climbed out a window after Spidey Shep. Not long before that, she was fighting with John to go on a mission regarding a Hive Ship and in that same token she went up against a Wraith Queen. Teyla is not no ordinary mom-to-be and this was just a normal extension of that in her character. So, to me...very well done and in character for Teyla.

John was a bit off in this one. I guess he was struggling between the fact that Carson was back to life and then realizing he's a clone and then back to the dead...sort of...I LOOOOVED Joe's reaction to his kids in this episode. I didn't even know it when I watched the episode and when I saw that scene I was like...what...Joe just did something odd..and then I came here and read that those were his kids...AWWWW...John was left behind and Daddy Joe came on-screen. Love it! that's a dad all the way!

Rodney and Carson were FANTASTIC!

I loved Carson and that convo between him and Rodney. Going and reliving all the emotions of what's been occuring in Atlantis, PRICELESS!

I too felt that that last scene although beautifully done, with John's super emotional about going back out there to rescue Teyla...and Ronon's muffled line....and Rodney's see you later...TERRIFIC! but it should have been more about them and not about Keller and Sam. This is the team...the core of the show and they deserved that time for just them!

*sighs*

Overall, a good episode...but not what I expected at all. Kindred was way better and this just didn't live up to its expectations!

P.S. One more thing and please don't throw any tomatoes because the last time I checked my biology book on the whole gene scenario was a very long time ago...but the whole hybrid kid for Teyla due to the fact that both her and Kanan have the Wraith gene....well, here are some thoughts and I"m sure that there are many here that can explain this but...

The whole double Wraith scenario, I"m not buying it. When you have two genes that are the same, it doesn't make you more of that gene, jus simply you have that gene and that trait...both of my parents have black hair and that didn't make me have DARKER black hair...does that make sense?

so, that is a questionable way to explain the reasons why Teyla's child is a hybrid and new of it's kind. And besides, I find it hard to believe that only Teyla and Kanan are the ones that have "mixed" together...wouldn't you think that by Teyla and Kanan having such a strong pull on the Wraith gene that the reason would be that somewhere along the line the gene has been kept strong because of the inter-relationships?

Gosh, I hope I'm not sounding totally stupid! *wink*

ShadowMaat
March 1st, 2008, 06:56 PM
I also think it's kinda sad that Teyla's story- at least in these two eps- have served as nothing more than a way to propel Carson's story. Even with this "major arc" she's supposed to be getting with the baby she's still getting marginalized! Last week's ep was all about getting the team to the base to find Carson. This week's ep is all about OMG! Carson's back! Sort of! Undoubtedly next week's ep will be all about Michael with Teyla simply along for the ride.

IMO, Rachel should bail on this show. Use the excuse of wanting to spend more time with her family (which is a very valid concern) and bug out while the bugging's good. If this is the best TPTB can do for her, she's better off somewhere else because IMO their "best" isn't nearly good enough.

Lt. Ford
March 1st, 2008, 07:36 PM
Overall, I thought it was a pretty good episode. I enjoyed seeing Carson back, clone or not. I always liked him, and like most, was sad when he was killed.

Anyways, what I liked was when Carson asked Rodney to get Weir in there so he could talk to her, and Rodney replied "She's dead, Carson." I liked Carson's reaction to it. That would be really sad coming back to Atlantis and something major like that has changed.

majorsal
March 1st, 2008, 07:58 PM
However, the expression on Carter's face, calling back to The Lost City was a nice touch.

i know! :D

:love:

i'm trying to remember what word to use to describe them following through on something from one ep/season to another. i know it's another show (sg1), but it still followed through with sam's history. but what's that word? :p



sally :)

Skydiver
March 1st, 2008, 07:59 PM
guys, let's take it easy on all the OT chit chat please.

you want to squee over chuck or MS or others, take that to thier thunk threads and keep this one about the episode Kindred Part 2

majorsal
March 1st, 2008, 08:07 PM
That's a very good point. He wouldn't know about the Pegasus replicators. So you can view this as a continuity mistake, or just assume that Carson was too shocked to hear of Weir's death to respond with "Replicators? What do you mean?".

not replying to this post, but *that's* the word i was looking for! :p



sally :D

Willow'sCat
March 1st, 2008, 08:07 PM
Yeah, you'd think Teyla would want to get her baby the heck out of there but I can see how she'd want to try to save the convenient plot line...err Kanaan. This isn't the first time this season that she's made some pretty sketchy decisions regarding the safety of her unborn child.Well I suppose we could put it all down to hormones. :rolleyes: I can't think of any other reason myself.


I agree that the clone thing isn't very original or creative but there are only so many ways that they could have brought Carson back from the dead and at least this way he figured in to Michael's experiments. I can also see why McKay would be so happy to have Carson back, clone or not so his behavior didn't seem to terribly out of line to me. Even scientists can be effected by their emotions sometimes.Well there is my point. He should not have been brought back from the dead, because really there is no way to do that on Stargate without it being cliched scifi rubbish... and... well actually he wasn't! He is still very much dead. ;)

I also think it's kinda sad that Teyla's story- at least in these two eps- have served as nothing more than a way to propel Carson's story. Even with this "major arc" she's supposed to be getting with the baby she's still getting marginalized! Last week's ep was all about getting the team to the base to find Carson. This week's ep is all about OMG! Carson's back! Sort of! Undoubtedly next week's ep will be all about Michael with Teyla simply along for the ride.Yes, I thought these eps were meant to be more about Teyla. Carson was the "b" story...:S really Teyla's arc is now something of a myth it seems.

We seek it here, we seek it there...! :p


If this is the best TPTB can do for her, she's better off somewhere else because IMO their "best" isn't nearly good enough.I think really Rachel knows, how could see not know? She is not going to get the meaty stories the male actors get, the women folk never do on Stargate. :cool:

Lythisrose
March 1st, 2008, 09:11 PM
Things I liked:
Seeing Joe's kids
The last scene; almost brought me to tears. (I don't mind that Carson is a clone, I feel bad about the original but don't begrudge Clone!Carson his identity or existence)

The rest, I guess "whatever..."
Looking forward to The Last Man - I'm optimistic till the end! :o

AutumnDream
March 1st, 2008, 10:43 PM
IMO, Rachel should bail on this show. Use the excuse of wanting to spend more time with her family (which is a very valid concern) and bug out while the bugging's good. If this is the best TPTB can do for her, she's better off somewhere else because IMO their "best" isn't nearly good enough.

If she just never appeared on the show again I would probably not even notice she was gone. 16 episodes into Season 5 I would be like, "Hey, what happened to that nice woman with the sticks who used to pipe in every so often?"

And this is coming from someone who has always liked Teyla. Seriously, there have been episodes she was not even in and afterwards on the forums people would say "Hey where was Teyla?" and I'd realize her absence took absolutely nothing away because her presence is so understated.

Buck32
March 1st, 2008, 11:16 PM
Well Kindred 2 was ok, i've seen better in SGA, i'm glad Carson is back, even though he was (yawn) a clone.

I don't know if you can argue like some have that Teyla has been marginalised by the writers, i mean she just isn't that interesting when you get down to it, and that's been the case from day one, and what is she now? she's not a team member, she's not leading her people, she's just an incubator for who know's what? a monster? a new species?

To the writers and producers etc i would say this, make teyla interesting or get rid of her, and for god's sake try and write some interesting stories in season 5 or you may as well kill off the entire series, another season like this one will do it for you anyway!!!