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    Terraforming Not Feasible

    At least not yet, and not in the real world.

    I am an avid watcher of the Science Channel, and love doing casual research into all kinds of science (mostly computer and space-centric topics) and have come to the conclusion that Mars will not be terraformed for centuries, more likely millenia. Of course, I'm hardly qualified to make such a decision, so I've come here for all of your opinions. Not that you'll change my mind, just that it'd be an interesting discussion

    There are no less than four (maybe five) attributes that any world must have to be brought to an Earth-like state.

    1. An Earth-like Atmosphere: This is of course the most obvious of them all. Without a proper atmosphere a colony is restricted to heavily shielded installations to protect from the harsh environment, be that the existing atmosphere, the lack there-of, or cosmic radiation that is not being stopped by the (non)atmosphere.

    We can cultivate an atmosphere through various means, but they almost all depend on existing sources of water. Which is yet another requirement that we can't count on even on Mars, even though Scientists are farely certain there is water somewhere under the surface.

    2. A Strong Magnetic Field/Iron/Nickel Core: The planet in question must have an Iron and Nickel Core in order to maintain a powerfull magnetic field, or energetic particles emitted by the sun will burn away the atmosphere that we so lovingly cultivated. This magnetic field also influences our weather, somehow, by-proxy, I think... If this can be verified/debunked that would be great. At any rate, that magnetic field is essential to protect the new atmosphere.

    3. The planet must be Near 1G: Meaning that it must have a level of surface gravity very near that of Earth. To much and our bodies cannot handle it, to little and we start to fall appart, not to mention that the atmosphere will slowly leak away.

    4. Lastly, it must have A Satellite: By that I mean a Moon. The Moon does a wealth of good to the Earth. It stabilizes Earth's orbit, giving us predictable seasons and stable weather (compared to the rest of our star system). It also creates the tides, which are important to alot of Earth based life forms. Not to mention the huge number of impacts the Moon takes for us. I think there is more, but the stability of the planet's rotation is so important that nothing else matters.

    I also believe that active plate tectonics are essential, but I don't remember why I came up with that, so I didn't include it in my list.

    Here are the ways these problems can be addressed, granted most of these solutions will not use current technology, because current technology will not suffice.

    1. Atmosphere: Assuming there is frozen water, you introduce large amounts of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere to increase the planet-wide temperature enough to melt the ice. This would release more CO2 and continue to warm the planet, as well as introduce water vapor into the new atmosphere. After a certain point algae is introduced (most likely geneticaly engineered for the task) to increase nitrogen levels. When nitrogen levels are high enough, and enough water is available, higher level plants (more evolved) are introduced to increase oxygen levels. In the case of Mars there are huge levels of Oxygen tied up in Iron Oxide all over the planet (that is why Mars is a rusty red color) which can be released when a great deal of energy is applied. In this method you could create an Earth-like atmosphere in a few centuries, if we started next week ;p

    2. Magnetic Field/Iron Core: This one is simple, tractor beam (or attach a rocket to) a big hunk of iron, or lots of pieces of iron, and smash it into the planet. If your lucky the impact will melt a large portion of the surface and cause the heavier-than-rock iron to sink to the core of the planet, thus supplanting the normally rock core with an iron one. The impact will have to be sufficiently large to melt enough of the rock to get all the way to the bottom or the magnetic field will be off-center at best, and not work at the worst. You also don't want to blast the whole planet apart, unless your trying to make a moon Obviously this step will have to be done before the formation of the atmosphere.

    3. Earth-like Gravity: Basically this will be done in the same step as the construction of the iron core. By introducing heavier elements at various levels, or by sending other other large mass objects (perhaps from the asteroid belt) to the planet a higher level of gravity could be achieved.

    4. Natural Satellite(Moon): Either piece one together from asteroids and meteors to achieve the right size at the right distance or do it the way the Earth got its moon. The first method is more likely to happen soon... well sooner.

    By gathering together many large objects, again from the asteroid belt, you could eventually form a moon. At first you may need to maintain their relative position to eachother and the planet. Eventually their mutual gravity would draw them together, and after a great deal of time the increasing gravity of the object would cause it to become more cohesive, eventually becomeing a sphere. This process could be sped up if the initial objects are of a super heavy element, such as Uranium, but an inert element/substance would probably be a better choice.

    The second would be to replicate the birth of our own moon. It is theorized that a large object, roughly the size of Mars, struck the early still-molten Earth. This impact threw off huge amounts of material into orbit. This material eventually coalesced into our moon. This method would make creating the Iron Core easier because it would most certainly melt the entire planet, allowing the iron to sink all the way to the bottom. However, it is extremely risky, because there is no way to be sure it will turn out properly. If to much is ejected than the mass of the planet may become to small, if to little than you just wasted your time and energy, and it takes alot of energy to move a planetoid! You also don't know if it will land in the right orbit (the correct distance). It gets even more complicated when you factor in that you need the distance to be just right for the ratio between planetary gravity and lunar gravity. This method is just too unpredictable.

    Both methods could take centuries to create a moon.

    As to my (almost) certainty that there must be active plate tectonics, well you'd introduce radioactive elements to the iron/nickel core when you insterted it, such as Uranium, Thorium, and Potassium. These elements exist at the center of the Earth, within the Iron/Nickel core, and create a kind of atomic engine that keeps the interior of the Earth very hot. Without it the Earth would have cooled after less than 100 million years after the formation of the moon, this would have eliminated plate tectonics, and thus made life impossible, for some reason I can't remember.

    Okay, that is my rediculusly long post. Thoughts?

    #2
    nice post. I watched a Doco on terraforming Mars a while back, very interesting stuff.

    Unfortunately this post has nothing to do with Stargate, so.......

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      #3
      Originally posted by theStormWeaver View Post
      3. The planet must be Near 1G: Meaning that it must have a level of surface gravity very near that of Earth. To much and our bodies cannot handle it, to little and we start to fall appart, not to mention that the atmosphere will slowly leak away.

      Not quite--while the atmosphere would leak away in a low g situation, organic life, including us, would physiologically adapt. The problem arises when these low-g adapted organisms are subsequently introduced to a relatively high-g environment. As far as I know, a normal human can take around 2-3 g's and still be OK...above that would be bad as the skeletal structure could not take the stresses incurred, and bone and musculature can only be strengthened to a certain point through physiological adaptation.

      On the importance of plate tectonics, its primary importance is in recycling elements and gases within the planetary system, renewing surface and atmospheric supplies. More importantly though it is an indicator for the presence of a liquid interior, which is a significant aspect of the system which creates the magnetosphere that as you pointed out is CRITICAL
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        #4
        don't mean to poke too many holes in your post but:

        Mars does not need a moon as it already has 2.

        also on water :
        Liquid water cannot exist on the surface of Mars with its present low atmospheric pressure, except at the lowest elevations for short periods[11][12] but water ice is in no short supply, with two polar ice caps made largely of ice.[13] In March 2007, NASA announced that the volume of water ice in the south polar ice cap, if melted, would be sufficient to cover the entire planetary surface to a depth of 11 metres
        Gravity on mars I believe is about 1/3 of earths, so while this causes some problems it is survivable.

        Big problem is the atmosphere which we are no where near advanced enough to fix.

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          #5
          With enough money & resources at your disposal then anything is possible!

          Long term space travel, terraforming & all the rest are just pipe dreams for the forseeable future...50 years minimum for space (but more likely 100). Terraforming will probably follow shortly after when it's discovered & accepted by all that we've screwed our current planet over beyond repair.

          The only way such advances would come about much sooner is if someone made a miracle breakthrough in propulsion technology. You get that, then you could go to Mars in a matter of hours etc.

          Personally don't expect to see any of these in my lifetime though!

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            #6
            But just as with the gravitic adaptation, adaptation to a thinner atmosphere only goes so far, and it would come to point that we would no longer be able to cope. If your going to invest the massive amounts of time, mass, and energy to terraform (make like Earth) a planet, then you might as well go for the long haul (millions of years).

            I know that the moon is 1/6 Earth gravity, and that is low enough to cause rapid bone decay, heart shrinkage, and immune system failure. How hard would it be to toss some more material onto the planet to make it alittle heavier?

            As to a world already being heavier, well the heavier it is the shorter your lifespan will be. Your heart will wear out faster because it must work that much harder to pump your blood. Ideally you want it to be as close to Earth gravity (1G) as possible.

            As to Mars' moons, I was talking about in general, not just Mars. I suppose we could squish Mars' moons (Chiron and I can't remember the other one) together and push them into the right orbit. I'm pretty sure those moons are gravitically insignificant, and thus are useless for my purposes.

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              #7
              meh, in the story i've been writing we redirected a whole load of iron rich asteroids and water/nitrogen comets to collide with mars to build up mass, iron content, and water content, and also change mars' orbit and rotation to be as similar to earth as possible. and there's really no aim to have mars fully terraformed for 300 years or so, even at that point, and theres a lot of artificial cooling taking place on the planet.

              my point is, even as a barely even amatuer sci-fi writer, i have taken your points into account. (based mostly on the terraforming of mars in the nights dawn trilogy but more intense)
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                #8
                There is no point in going long term for Terraforming!

                Too expensive & too uncertain as to what will be around in thousands/millions of years (meaning us if we've not blown ourselves back to the stoneage at that point)!

                Quickest & simplest option is to use rockets to divert asteroids directly into Mars. Temperature gets dramatically increased! Probably talking about 100 years or so before it would be ready.

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                  #9
                  Originally posted by Anonmatel View Post
                  nice post. I watched a Doco on terraforming Mars a while back, very interesting stuff.

                  Unfortunately this post has nothing to do with Stargate, so.......
                  Teal'c actually noted in one of the earlier eps the Goa'Uld terraformed many planets

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                    #10
                    That was the episode 'The First Commandment', Season One I believe. Could have been one of the first 4 or 5 episodes.

                    I forgot to mention that one of the problems with counting on adaptation is that humans have essentially stopped evolving. People don't generally factor in genetics when they choose who they have children with (if they really make the choice at all). I understand fully the massive timescale evolution requires, but our society spends vast resources on saving the lives, and correcting the defects, that evolution would rather toss out. These corrected defects don't alter our genes. Someone who wears glasses or gets lasic still has genes for bad eyesight, these will be passed on.

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                      #11
                      Originally posted by theStormWeaver View Post
                      At least not yet, and not in the real world.

                      4. Lastly, it must have A Satellite: By that I mean a Moon. The Moon does a wealth of good to the Earth. It stabilizes Earth's orbit, giving us predictable seasons and stable weather (compared to the rest of our star system). It also creates the tides, which are important to alot of Earth based life forms. Not to mention the huge number of impacts the Moon takes for us. I think there is more, but the stability of the planet's rotation is so important that nothing else matters.
                      Yes, a bit long perhaps, but well thought out for the most part.

                      I'm no scientist myself but I have one disagreement. Earth's seasons are caused by the 23 1/2-degree tilt of Earth's axis. In basic terms, at the moment the north pole is titled away from the sun, causing winter in the northern hemisphere and summer in the southern. By late June it'll be tilted toward the sun causing the opposite effect. Although the moon certainly affects the tides (as does the sun to some degree), it has little, if anything to do with our seasons.
                      My timeline of the Ancients here.

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                        #12
                        Yes, it does. It keeps the seasons regular. The pull of the moons gravity prevents the Earth's wobble from going crazy. Without the moon to stabilize the rotation of the Earth the off-centeredness of the Earth could vary by as much as 90 degrees.

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                          #13
                          Originally posted by theStormWeaver View Post
                          That was the episode 'The First Commandment', Season One I believe. Could have been one of the first 4 or 5 episodes.

                          I forgot to mention that one of the problems with counting on adaptation is that humans have essentially stopped evolving. People don't generally factor in genetics when they choose who they have children with (if they really make the choice at all). I understand fully the massive timescale evolution requires, but our society spends vast resources on saving the lives, and correcting the defects, that evolution would rather toss out. These corrected defects don't alter our genes. Someone who wears glasses or gets lasic still has genes for bad eyesight, these will be passed on.
                          i agree, but i dont think we should start encouraging eugenics, i think genetic engineering is very important for the artificial evolution of mankind, perhaps to live better in different environments, extreme cold, hight heat, low oxygen, high oxygen, toxic gases, high G, low G, 0 G,
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                            #14
                            Originally posted by AvatarIII View Post
                            i agree, but i dont think we should start encouraging eugenics, i think genetic engineering is very important for the artificial evolution of mankind, perhaps to live better in different environments, extreme cold, hight heat, low oxygen, high oxygen, toxic gases, high G, low G, 0 G,
                            I wouldn't encourage eugenics either, last thing we need is more Nazis...

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                              #15
                              Originally posted by theStormWeaver View Post
                              That was the episode 'The First Commandment', Season One I believe. Could have been one of the first 4 or 5 episodes.

                              I forgot to mention that one of the problems with counting on adaptation is that humans have essentially stopped evolving. People don't generally factor in genetics when they choose who they have children with (if they really make the choice at all). I understand fully the massive timescale evolution requires, but our society spends vast resources on saving the lives, and correcting the defects, that evolution would rather toss out. These corrected defects don't alter our genes. Someone who wears glasses or gets lasic still has genes for bad eyesight, these will be passed on.
                              Not burst your bubble on human evolution but scientists have recently found out that humans are evolving faster than thought before.

                              In fact due to environmental and cultural factors our evolution accelerated.

                              Our life expectancy is longer and populations bigger than before thus more mutations are happening.
                              For example a recent adaption is lactose tolerance. Back in the old days milk as a diet after infancy did not frequently occur. Now it does.


                              When you think of human evolution don't think it is going in only one direction. It is going in a thousand different directions. For example melanin content varies within different ethnic groups thus diffrent skin pigmentations suited for their environment. Another example is that Inuit evolved without skin pores for the cold climate.

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