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View Full Version : Were the clones just really, really stupid or suicidal?



FallenAngelII
January 15th, 2008, 01:37 AM
OK, so they needed a distraction in order to let SGA-1 escape. O... K... so did they have to send off the entire team to go up against two Aurora-class warships (which fired off one drone at a time for whatever reason)?

I mean, all that was really necessary was sending clone!John. The rest could've escaped in SGA-1's jumper. I mean, wouldn't Atlantis benefit from having two Rodneys? And with Elizabeth supposedly dead, they would gladly welcome her back should the nanites be rendered inert.

But noooo, they all decide that they must all pile up in the doomed jumper together to die and real!John seemed to know it was a suicide mission as he said "Shut off the jumper, no one's coming through".

And why didn't they cloak the jumper almost immediately? They left themselves open for attack for way too long. Suicidal maniacs.

sparklegem
January 15th, 2008, 08:10 AM
I completely agree with you. If you'd like to look through them, there's two other threads kind of talking about the same thing. Here's what I posted on the "Why didn't Weir go back to Atlantis?" thread-

No matter how it's spinned, this ending seems illogical to me and unfortunately it kind of ruins what was otherwise a good episode for me. It felt contrived, like "We need some way for all the duplicates to die in the next 5 minutes so we don't have to actually deal with them."

In fact, I was so sure that the dupli-group intended to get shot down and that this was part of a big plan not yet revealed to the audience, because 1) the characters would never actually do that, and 2) because their deaths weren't even acknowledged. I'm glad we were shown the fallout from news that the original Elizabeth was dead, but not at the expense of ignoring the sacrificial deaths of five people exactly like the ones we know and love. I was sure of this until I read JM's blog, and found out they actually thought that was a good plan to get away :confused:.

Regarding the life signs, I don't think we've ever been given evidence that the life signs can be seen within a jumper, and if that were the case, the Asurans still would have seen the ones on the ground and not abandoned the gate.

But beyond those sorts of arguments, which seemed to be hashed out well already in this thread, it was just a bad plan, badly executed that I don't believe either John or the other characters would have agreed to. John's been saving his team for 4 years by being a good pilot, and now it just so happens that dulpi!John, who's exactly like him, pulls off a really bad stunt that gets his team killed, with everyone else, including the real John, letting him?

John says, "Even cloaked, if the Jumper so much as rustles a bush, they will pinpoint our position and blast us out of the sky." So the better plan where they'll "all have a better chance" is to fly uncloaked for an unnecessarily long time past the ships? They could have remained cloaked and just brushed a tree to draw attenion and not be so obvious a target. And if dupli-John was going to fly the jumper as the decoy, he would have insisted on doing it by himself to minimize the risk to others.

What I would have expected from the team, though, instead of rushing into some kamikaze stunt, would be to wait in the cloaked jumper for a better chance of escape or rescue. What ever happened to trusting in "Never leave people behind"? Atlantis knew they were on that planet and would have figured something out. Heck, Caldwell or Ellis could have provided a much better distraction with their ships, if only the team had waited it out.

And finally, with regards to the duplicates never being able to go to Atlantis so they might as well risk their lives, I think Orion's Star puts it pretty well.

I find that whole thinking to be utterly ridiculous and illogical.

"Oh my God, the others think I'm icky! They think I'm not good enough."
"Oh how I wish I could prove to Sheppard that I'm a real girl."
"I know! What a brilliant idea! I'll kill myself! That'll show 'em!"
"Now they'll never be able to say I'm not human. I am Elizabeth Weir!"
"Wait a minute, now I'm dead. Oh well. I sure showed them though."
I would prefer to believe that Sheppard or any of them wouldn't be okay with the duplicates sacrificing themselves for the "real" team just because they were "different". Just because it was weird for everybody doesn't mean that the duplicates couldn't have been accepted with time, and even Sheppard says security wasn't the issue: "It's not like this hasn't happened before. The other Elizabeth got infected by those little nanite things and we figured out how to stop ‘em somehow. Maybe we can do the same for you."

Bottom line for me is, TMG was much more frusterating than Double Jeopardy, which was a contrivance such that, by the end, all the duplicates died and the "real" team was fine. But Double Jeopardy was plausible. For me, the ending of TMC was very disappointing.

PG15
January 15th, 2008, 07:51 PM
The basic argument is that, the clones were trying to escape as well. They took the jumper, not only as a distraction for the others, but also as a way to escape themselves; that's why they were all onboard. It just didn't work out according to plan with them.

I don't think Shep's team took a jumper to meet the clones.

FallenAngelII
January 16th, 2008, 08:58 AM
The basic argument is that, the clones were trying to escape as well. They took the jumper, not only as a distraction for the others, but also as a way to escape themselves; that's why they were all onboard. It just didn't work out according to plan with them.

I don't think Shep's team took a jumper to meet the clones.
Umm... escape how? John said to shut the gate off because "No one else is coming through". O... K... how the hell did the clones plan to escape?! Or was John just being evil?

PG15
January 16th, 2008, 01:17 PM
I guess he saw the jumper being shot down and assumed the worst.

FallenAngelII
January 17th, 2008, 03:11 AM
I guess he saw the jumper being shot down and assumed the worst.
We can only speculate. I don't think he did because the Jumper got pretty far (especially with the trees blocking the view) before getting shot down. Also, I assume they were pretty close to the gate when it dialed just in case.

g.o.d
January 17th, 2008, 08:52 AM
it's called "bad writing"

talyn2k1
January 17th, 2008, 09:01 AM
As stated above they were all planning to escape.

The idea was to stay visible long enough to get the attention of the Asuran cruiser, lure them away from the gate, then cloak. While the cruiser is firing random shots or scanning for the Jumper, SGA-1 escape through the gate. As soon as they're through, they use the Jumper to get through the gate.

Unfortunately they stayed visible too long and gave the Asurans enough time to get a lock and fire a shot.

As to why they all went in that Jumper, two theories to that.

1. They feared that as soon as they got to Atlantis they would be locked up as their nanites are still a hazard to the base. If they all escaped somewhere else, they could possibly still work with the Atlantis team but also return their freedom.
2. If the Jumper was shot down with only Sheppard in it, the Asurans would know that the others had gone to Atlantis and double their efforts to find it. Two McKays in one place at the same time working on a way to defeat them, that would be seriously worrying for them.

FallenAngelII
January 17th, 2008, 09:26 AM
The idea was to stay visible long enough to get the attention of the Asuran cruiser, lure them away from the gate, then cloak. While the cruiser is firing random shots or scanning for the Jumper, SGA-1 escape through the gate. As soon as they're through, they use the Jumper to get through the gate.
Sucky plan as they stayed visible way too long. They should've cloaked, flew up in front of the ships, uncloaked momentarily while speeding away, quickly recloaked and veered off to the left/right/up/down in order to make the drones miss. John would know to do that.



1. They feared that as soon as they got to Atlantis they would be locked up as their nanites are still a hazard to the base. If they all escaped somewhere else, they could possibly still work with the Atlantis team but also return their freedom.
So instead of sending only John off to risk his life, they all went? Instead of having all of them minus John going through the gate and then waiting for John to come? Even if repli!John wouldn't have made, the rest of them would and could have "escaped" to another planet.



2. If the Jumper was shot down with only Sheppard in it, the Asurans would know that the others had gone to Atlantis and double their efforts to find it. Two McKays in one place at the same time working on a way to defeat them, that would be seriously worrying for them.
That's a weak argument. For one thing, if they were really concerned about the Lanteans, they would've used more resources to find them. For another, Atlantis is hidden somewhere in the vastness of space. Sending out a few ships to "double your efforts" will hardly be enough to find Atlantis.

Also, they now had a way to track Asuran ships. It would be strange to suddenly fear the Asurans even more after the upgrades on the Daedalus and the Oddysey + the tracker + two Rodneys.

squeakytoad
January 25th, 2008, 05:53 AM
The writers simply needed to get rid of all those characters at once and saw this as the easiest way to do it. Yep, it's flat out stupid.

Ebeneezer_Goode
January 25th, 2008, 05:58 AM
Except we don't know they're gone, they fate was left open for a reason.

squeakytoad
January 25th, 2008, 06:29 AM
Except we don't know they're gone, they fate was left open for a reason.

The Stargate writers have always been afraid of committing. They always want to leave holes open so they can do what they want without difficulty.
It's one of their major flaws. I was hoping they'd be able to resolve it with Atlantis. I mean, with SG1, nobody ever dies and nothing ever completely changes, and it becomes a way of life to the point where nothing affects you when watching the show and nothing has meaning; one of the reasons Atlantis was rising in popularity was due to the show's changing nature, which has begun to seriously wane as the seasons go on.
The reason for this is obsessed fickle fangirls (usually girls, though there are a good number of very strange guys involved in it) who have no idea what makes a good show and will scream and shout until they get their way and the entire fictional universe exists in this happy little place where nobody dies and nothing changes, thus avoiding upsetting the nerds, as many of them having the emotional stability of a hamster.
Drives me nuts.
The problem is most of them aren't even proper watchers. They watch it for the soap opera factor, the "relationships", the pretty faces (which they stick in their signatures in mass amount surrounded by pink hearts), and the shallow jokes they giggle at, repeat all over, and stick in their signatures (while missing the actually funny stuff).

BubblingOverWithIdeas
January 25th, 2008, 07:22 AM
I agree with Fallen Angel II and Sparklegem. It was really contrived, and not properly dealt with. Even if a sacrifice was necessary, it didn't need to be the entire team. It's obviously not something the first team would do, given that they keep surviving beyond all odds.

Technologies far more likely to be dangerous than healing-nanites, which McKay could surely figure out a way to deactivate, have been allowed on-base before. And you can't take the view that their lives weren't worth as much, because they were equally human. These weren't robots, these were more like identical twins. Family.

I also agree that more shake-ups and changes in the long-term emotional and psychological states of characters are needed in this show.

ciannwn
January 25th, 2008, 08:05 AM
The reason for this is obsessed fickle fangirls (usually girls, though there are a good number of very strange guys involved in it) who have no idea what makes a good show

Just out of curiosity, what is your idea of a good show and can you give some examples of sci-fi shows which you think are good?

squeakytoad
January 25th, 2008, 06:20 PM
Just out of curiosity, what is your idea of a good show and can you give some examples of sci-fi shows which you think are good?

Stargate SG1 seasons 1-7 (though there were a few low points in between, this was generally the best Sci Fi show ever) and parts of Atlantis.

Firefly/Serenity was also great.

ciannwn
January 26th, 2008, 03:19 AM
Stargate SG1 seasons 1-7 (though there were a few low points in between, this was generally the best Sci Fi show ever) and parts of Atlantis.

I like Battlestar Galactica but not for the relationships - the Starbuck and Apollo romance got very tedious very quickly. It's grim, harsh and the only people who come back from the dead there are Cylons. If SGA was a bit more like that, Kavanagh wouldn't have 'conveniently' fainted before Ronon laid a finger on him in 'Cricital Mass'. Our heroes would have been faced with the unpalatable fact that they really had tortured the wrong man rather than just intending to and having a lucky escape.


The Stargate writers have always been afraid of committing. They always want to leave holes open so they can do what they want without difficulty.

I agree with you there. I've noticed a tendency to 'keep explanations to a minimum and be as vague as possible'. This gives me the impression that they make it up as they go along so they don't want to be tied down by details. :)


and the entire fictional universe exists in this happy little place where nobody dies

TPTB set a precedent with Daniel - if he can come back then why not any other character? :D Then there's the Ba'al clones - kill Ba'al off in one episode and we get another Ba'al or even several a few episodes later. Finally there are the alternate universes where (a) a dead character in one is very much alive in another or (b) they can kill off a star character without he/she actually being dead in the 'main Stargate universe'. Alternate universes are wonderful resources for people who like leaving holes open. It gives them an 'excuse' to revive any dead character whenever they feel like it. If they really, really wanted to they could even come up with a reason as to why this alternate version is happy to move to the 'main Stargate universe'. :D


The writers simply needed to get rid of all those characters at once and saw this as the easiest way to do it. Yep, it's flat out stupid.

I've got a sneaking suspicion that the explanation is along those lines.They'd touched briefly on the psychological drama of duplicates realising they were duplicates and the team facing their duplicates and that was enough of that.


one of the reasons Atlantis was rising in popularity was due to the show's changing nature, which has begun to seriously wane as the seasons go on.

Or maybe it got a bit more lightweight in comparison to how it started off. Two of the best episodes as far as I'm concerned were 'The Storm' and 'The Eye'. Kolya and Sheppard playing a kind of psychological chess game with each other showed that 'excitement' doesn't have to revolve around amazing special effects and big explosions.

BubblingOverWithIdeas
January 27th, 2008, 06:46 PM
Or maybe it got a bit more lightweight in comparison to how it started off. Two of the best episodes as far as I'm concerned were 'The Storm' and 'The Eye'. Kolya and Sheppard playing a kind of psychological chess game with each other showed that 'excitement' doesn't have to revolve around amazing special effects and big explosions.

They need more like that. But, at the same time, not a rehash. That was a great sequence because it was something new.


I like Battlestar Galactica but not for the relationships - the Starbuck and Apollo romance got very tedious very quickly. It's grim, harsh and the only people who come back from the dead there are Cylons. If SGA was a bit more like that, Kavanagh wouldn't have 'conveniently' fainted before Ronon laid a finger on him in 'Cricital Mass'. Our heroes would have been faced with the unpalatable fact that they really had tortured the wrong man rather than just intending to and having a lucky escape.

Totally agree here (except that I apparently have a greater tolerance for the Apollo/Starbuck relationship than some people). Actions have long-term consequences, and you rarely get to change tracks in life-or-death situations.