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Daniel Jackson
December 8th, 2007, 12:29 PM
With news that the original Weir is dead, why didn't Weir stay with the real team, go back to Atlantis, have McKay set off an EMP shock to kill her nanites, and then rejoin the Atlantis Expedition? I doubt she'd get back command, but she could be there as an expert on the Asurans or something.

The_Carpenter
December 8th, 2007, 12:30 PM
With news that the original Weir is dead, why didn't Weir stay with the real team, go back to Atlantis, have McKay set off an EMP shock to kill her nanites, and then rejoin the Atlantis Expedition? I doubt she'd get back command, but she could be there as an expert on the Asurans or something.

She wanted to prove that she was still human by sacrificing herself so the real team could escape.

sueKay
December 8th, 2007, 12:32 PM
Daniel Jackson - you've answered your own question...

She knew she couldn't go back because she *isn't* the real Weir...They would never treat her as such and she knew she had to sacrifice herself for them to hold her in the same regard as the real Weir

IcyNeko
December 8th, 2007, 12:35 PM
Having replicator nanites to the extent that Weir had could pose a possible infestation risk if Oberoth was ever able to recode them...

P2J
December 8th, 2007, 12:36 PM
plus it would have make her return to easy. making the real weirs sacrificemeanless

sueKay
December 8th, 2007, 12:37 PM
Icy Neko...

You talking about real Weir or Clone Weir?

IcyNeko
December 8th, 2007, 12:39 PM
There's no "real" weir anymore, so I'd be referring to the "clone" weir. The clones have a ton more replicators, no?

sueKay
December 8th, 2007, 12:42 PM
There's a difference...

Weir's nanites were infestation nanites designed to attack the brain...McKay reprogrammed them to replace actual parts of her brain, thus allowing her to connect to the collective

Clone Weir's nanites were specifically designed to heal, only staying in her body to effect repairs...if Clone Weir were to recieve the same brain injuries as our Weir, the nanites would make new biological synapses, rather than take their place

Therefore Clone Weir and the clone team can't connect to the collective

IcyNeko
December 8th, 2007, 12:46 PM
No, but they were nanites all the same. Microrobots. All Oberoth had to do was connect to the SGclones and recode them to his will, and the microrobots would be working for him.

sueKay
December 8th, 2007, 12:49 PM
There are different types of nanite though...ones with different functions

It could be that these nanites are incapabled of controlling the mind of the body they inhabit

By your reasoning, Jeannie's the same threat to Atlantis and the SGC as the Clone team

IcyNeko
December 8th, 2007, 12:52 PM
Err.. nanites are nanites. It just matters what their base coding says. They don't have a storage cabinet containing nanites for different occasions. There's just nanites, and a code that's passed to them to tell them what to do.

Recall that they made Weir's nanites inert, then they recoded hers to heal her. Then they recoded them to reconnect to the replicator collective. There's only ONE set of nanites. :P

And yes, Jeannie's a threat to Atlantis and the SGC. Except that her nanites are of weaker construction (the ones in Wallace's daughter "ran out of steam").

sueKay
December 8th, 2007, 12:56 PM
There still tiny robots, and their physical construction will vary...kind of like different types of fly...very similar (they fly around and annoy you) but that's where the similarities end

IcyNeko
December 8th, 2007, 01:03 PM
... uhh no.

You're comparing something that's a combination of molecules to something the size of molecules. That's like comparing a brick to a large metropolis full of brick-laden buildings, saying that each building does different things, then pointing to the brick and saying that it must be different for each building.

Nanites are programmable devices that do what they're programmed to do. They do their work on the molecular level, and all they have to do is sequence DNA to do certain functions. What those functions ARE and how those DNA sequences WORK is what the nanite's programming tells them to do. This is how nanites work. They build stuff.

How do they rebuild organs? They build the cells necessary to rebuild organs.

how do they connect someone to the replicator collective? They build cells that work as a receiver for replicator signals, and build machine components that allow for the components to then reconfigure the host body to do whatever the received commands tell them to do.

Nanites are just THAT simple. There are no different types. There's just ONE type of nanite. Trust me on this. While I may not hold a degree in bio-engineering, this is still an engineering-type of thing, and I received a degree in electrical engineering. We discussed this stuff ALL the time in our upper level classes. :P

sueKay
December 8th, 2007, 01:10 PM
Okay...the undergrad Politics major is shutting up now lol :P :D

IcyNeko
December 8th, 2007, 01:11 PM
Lawl. You can be Weir, I'll be McKay. :)

Dutch_Razor
December 8th, 2007, 02:09 PM
But what about stuff like this nano-car? http://technology.newscientist.com/article/dn9004-nanocar-gets-an-engine.html

And how can the same nanite that handles nitrogen handle metals as well? Seeing as some metal atoms are 10 times heavier, wouldn't that be overkill for "healer-nanites"? I'm not questioning your knowledge Neko I just want to learn why :)

Daniel Jackson
December 8th, 2007, 02:44 PM
She wanted to prove that she was still human by sacrificing herself so the real team could escape.
She didn't need to sacrifice herself. Only Sheppard was necessary since he's the only one needed to fly the Jumper.


Daniel Jackson - you've answered your own question... She knew she couldn't go back because she *isn't* the real Weir...They would never treat her as such and she knew she had to sacrifice herself for them to hold her in the same regard as the real Weir
She's genetically Weir and has all of her memories, thoughts, personallity traits, and so forth. She's not the original Weir, but beyond being a clone, how is she not Weir? As O'Neill said in "Moebius, Part 2," close enough... As for sacrificing herself, as I told the Carpenter, it was utterly unecessary. Only Sheppard had to sacrifice himself since he was the only one needed to fly the Jumper.


Having replicator nanites to the extent that Weir had could pose a possible infestation risk if Oberoth was ever able to recode them...
That's what the EMP is for. ;)


plus it would have make her return to easy. making the real weirs sacrificemeanless
Being left behind with the Asurans, killed, and brought back as a clone is meaningless?


No, but they were nanites all the same. Microrobots. All Oberoth had to do was connect to the SGclones and recode them to his will, and the microrobots would be working for him.
Then why didn't he do that as soon as they fled Atlantis 2.0?

Emre
December 8th, 2007, 02:46 PM
She didn't need to sacrifice herself. Only Sheppard was necessary since he's the only one needed to fly the Jumper.

I agree with you. She should have gone with the real team. ._. 'Tis a shame that they lose Weir right after seeing her again.

Integrabyte
December 8th, 2007, 02:47 PM
To answer the question in the title...

...uhm...maybe because WEIR is not a part of the Atlantis cast anymore. It could be a wild guess and I might be wrong.

Daniel Jackson
December 8th, 2007, 03:00 PM
That's fine. They could have written the episode so that she makes the decission to go back to Atlantis but gets shot by an Asuran soldier or something and dies in Sheppard's arms. That'd make more sense and be more dramatic.

Fionnait
December 8th, 2007, 03:09 PM
That's fine. They could have written the episode so that she makes the decission to go back to Atlantis but gets shot by an Asuran soldier or something and dies in Sheppard's arms. That'd make more sense and be more dramatic.

Geez, I'm glad they didn't do that, 'cause that would have been even worse than what they gave us... Give us poor Elizabeth-fans a break ;)
I agree that it was totally unnecessary to have Weir sacrifice herself. Again! Once was more than enough for me. But they had to come up with some way to eliminate her. :(

PG15
December 8th, 2007, 10:01 PM
Um...didn't she say why in the episode? Something about the others always treating her as less than what she really is?

GateTrek2004
December 9th, 2007, 02:28 AM
I'm not convinced that Weir- the Real weir is dead. Its been posted that Weir will be back in at least 1 more episode this season- its not known which episode yet she will be in. If the clone Weir comes back, then that may mean that the real Weir is dead. But i'm holding out on the hope that RepliKeller's information about the real Weir is wrong and she will come back. Even if she doesn't come back to the series as a regular character, i'll be happy with the real Weir comes back.

Integrabyte
December 9th, 2007, 04:40 AM
Good question in the title....Why would she go back to Atlantis? Repli-Weir is like Rod from McKay and Mrs. Miller. Nothing to do with Old Weir...

Fionnait
December 9th, 2007, 04:50 AM
Good question in the title....Why would she go back to Atlantis? Repli-Weir is like Rod from McKay and Mrs. Miller. Nothing to do with Old Weir...

I disagree on that... She has all of Elizabeth's memories. She lived the same life, whereas Rod had a different life. So, even though the physical shell might not be the same, the soul is.

Integrabyte
December 9th, 2007, 05:17 AM
I disagree on that... She has all of Elizabeth's memories. She lived the same life, whereas Rod had a different life. So, even though the physical shell might not be the same, the soul is.

...uhm...apart from the fact that she wasn't Elizabeth. She was a clone nothing more nothing less. Having the same memories makes no difference. One is a lab rat the other was a human being. I think this is a big difference.

Eri13
December 9th, 2007, 10:18 AM
The biggest thing for Repli!Weir was that the other 'true' Lanteans wouldn't treat her like the real thing, and she felt like she was a copy. And the real Sheppard didn't deny that argument; instead he sort of didn't respond, which just confirmed her fears.

She'd rather have stayed, I believe, with the others who felt she was equal to them than try to fit in with people who would never have felt she was 'their' Weir.

Also, didn't Rodney mention that EMP no longer worked on the nanites? They'd become organic enough to be impervious to the EMP? That was the effect of using it the first time on Weir in "The Real World"--and then the EM guns in "The Return 1 & 2, and the field on "Lifeline".

Maybe they can reprogram frequencies to make it effective again...

Fionnait
December 9th, 2007, 10:25 AM
...uhm...apart from the fact that she wasn't Elizabeth. She was a clone nothing more nothing less. Having the same memories makes no difference. One is a lab rat the other was a human being. I think this is a big difference.

Well, let's just agree to disagree on that matter.

Integrabyte
December 9th, 2007, 12:14 PM
Well, let's just agree to disagree on that matter.

I agree to disagree ;). Nothing wrong with that ;).

insomniac8400
December 9th, 2007, 06:13 PM
Healing nanites? Wasn't the last episode about making nanites that would do this? It made no sense not to get some to read their code. Also why did all the clones go in the jumper for the distraction? There was no reason for that. The rodney clone I am sure would have had no problem sticking around.

Aussie_Fan
December 9th, 2007, 06:20 PM
The biggest thing for Repli!Weir was that the other 'true' Lanteans wouldn't treat her like the real thing, and she felt like she was a copy. And the real Sheppard didn't deny that argument; instead he sort of didn't respond, which just confirmed her fears.

She'd rather have stayed, I believe, with the others who felt she was equal to them than try to fit in with people who would never have felt she was 'their' Weir.

Also, didn't Rodney mention that EMP no longer worked on the nanites? They'd become organic enough to be impervious to the EMP? That was the effect of using it the first time on Weir in "The Real World"--and then the EM guns in "The Return 1 & 2, and the field on "Lifeline".

Maybe they can reprogram frequencies to make it effective again...

Oh my goodness, could you imagine the character development/moments if she had of gone back!!

The writers got rid of her 'cause they had written her into a hole.. if she had of gone back I don't think she would have been re-enstated as the leader 'cause of the whole replicater thing.. so she could have joined Sheps team and become their version of Daniel! Look, I just got them out of their hole. AND, here's an added bonus, Carter could stay in charge AND Weir could be there to. Everyone wins!

I might go write a fic about it...

PG15
December 9th, 2007, 06:24 PM
As JM said on his blog, the distraction was also an escape. As shown by the PJ trying to cloak, the clones were trying to escape at the same time as providing the distraction, so there would be no point in leaving anyone behind.

Aussie_Fan
December 9th, 2007, 07:07 PM
As JM said on his blog, the distraction was also an escape. As shown by the PJ trying to cloak, the clones were trying to escape at the same time as providing the distraction, so there would be no point in leaving anyone behind.

Why not? Voyager did it with Harry Kim.

Anjirika
December 9th, 2007, 07:17 PM
See, I think that the writers made a mistake by not having her go back. If she really and truely is the only Elizabeth Weir in the universe then why not have her go back? The others couldn't because they were simply clones essentially- but dupli!weir was the only one with the same memories up until the time that the real Elizabeht had been captured. She may have been created by nanites but she had a soul just the same as the real Elizabeth and really she's no different than clone Jack and that Jack stayed on Earth and lived his own life. Dupli!Weir could have come back to Atlantis and taken up a diplomatic position. It would have made things SOOO much better- and the writers still could have writen her out of the show if they had wanted. At least we would know that she would be alive.

And in the sense of not being the real one- it would be like that episode of Voyager when the ship split in two and one Harry died and the other jumped ship to take that Harry's place. He was the same, but differnt but not. If that makes any sense at all.

Bottom line is that TPTB created a way to bring back Weir full time and chose to kill her all over again and rip our poor hearts out again... like Lifeline. It's just too much to handle... now I think I understand what the Daniel fans went through when Daniel died in Meridian but at least there the door was WIDE open for him to return- here I think that TPTB who believe that repli!weir or the original Weir as we know her is actually dead will win out.

I think that I can only hope that another of Niam's faction managed to get away and will restart the entire process and a second clone will come back and make everything alright again.....

Mitchell82
December 9th, 2007, 07:19 PM
[COLOR="Blue"]She didn't need to sacrifice herself. Only Sheppard was necessary since he's the only one needed to fly the Jumper.
It had to be the whole team to make the illusion real. Had the Asurans found the jumper with only one person they would have known right away.



She's genetically Weir and has all of her memories, thoughts, personallity traits, and so forth. She's not the original Weir, but beyond being a clone, how is she not Weir? As O'Neill said in "Moebius, Part 2," close enough... As for sacrificing herself, as I told the Carpenter, it was utterly unecessary. Only Sheppard had to sacrifice himself since he was the only one needed to fly the Jumper.
again same as my above post. If they did that then they would have known right away that they had been duped. As to her being sacrificed the whole team did not die so no sacrifice since she doe appear again.



That's what the EMP is for. ;)
Except it wouldn't work. They are made 100% of nanites and are far stronger than any we have ever seen.



Being left behind with the Asurans, killed, and brought back as a clone is meaningless?
Which Weir are you refering to?

PG15
December 9th, 2007, 09:39 PM
Why not? Voyager did it with Harry Kim.

If you're talking about the episode "Deadlock", then I don't see how this is relevent. The duplicate crew couldn't have all come to our side without disrupting some technobabble balance, as I recall.

Regardless, what other shows do with their plots is their business, not Stargate's.

Orion's Star
December 10th, 2007, 05:06 AM
Um...didn't she say why in the episode? Something about the others always treating her as less than what she really is?

I find that whole thinking to be utterly ridiculous and illogical.

"Oh my God, the others think I'm icky! They think I'm not good enough."
"Oh how I wish I could prove to Sheppard that I'm a real girl."
"I know! What a brilliant idea! I'll kill myself! That'll show 'em!"
"Now they'll never be able to say I'm not human. I am Elizabeth Weir!"
"Wait a minute, now I'm dead. Oh well. I sure showed them though."

Whether or not she is dead, whether or not she'll come back, the thinking behind the action is pretty stupid if you ask me.


It had to be the whole team to make the illusion real. Had the Asurans found the jumper with only one person they would have known right away.

This? Is complete conjecture. I don't believe there was anything said or alluded to in the episode that the Asurans knew there were five rebel replicators running around.

Let's assume for a second that they did know about the five rebels. So what? Sheppard's team only has four people on it. Wouldn't five people on the jumper be a giveaway that something was wrong? But again, let's assume they figure that Sheppard's team actually does have five people on it. I still don't understand this. If they can detect that there are five people on the jumper how can they not see how many are on the ground? And if they can't detect the number of people beforehand, then who the hell cares whether or not they find out only one person is on the jumper? Everybody has already escaped by then! It doesn't matter!

Also, what about the other team that was already on planet? Assuming that the Asurans were looking at the number of lifesigns on the planet, which is the only way they'd be able to tell how many people were on the jumper to know if it was a decoy or not, then they should have noticed the other soldiers as well. How does that gel? Why weren't they accounted for on the jumper if the supposed correct number needed to be on it? It never occurred to them to stop and think about what was going on?

"Wait a minute. Something about this is kind of fishy. There are five lifesigns on this jumper flying around, but there are 10 on the ground."
"I wonder who we should try to kill? 5? 10? Oh I can't decide!"
"You know what, those 10 lifesigns are probably just fake. We should go after the puddle jumper because that's obviously the real target."

Or do the Asurans only care about characters with names?

PG15
December 10th, 2007, 11:59 AM
Actually, it makes perfect sense to me. She'll be treated as an outcast, a copy of something deemed much more than her.

That'd put a damper on your day.

Orion's Star
December 10th, 2007, 02:25 PM
Actually, it makes perfect sense to me. She'll be treated as an outcast, a copy of something deemed much more than her.

That'd put a damper on your day.

Uh, yeah, and dying or becoming a prisoner of the Asurans is a month long vacation in Tahiti. Come on. :rolleyes:

PG15
December 10th, 2007, 02:45 PM
As I recall, she was telling John of why she has doubts of returning, not that she wasn't returning, period. She was weighing her choices.

And those aren't all the options either. She can always go and live somewhere else; start a new life.

prion
December 10th, 2007, 05:31 PM
Actually, it makes perfect sense to me. She'll be treated as an outcast, a copy of something deemed much more than her.

That'd put a damper on your day.

She'd be treated as a security risk, pure and simple. hardly a way to live. So, if RepliWeir survived and got away, she'd be on her own. She could never go back to Atlantis or Earth, and she knows it.

Amalthea
December 10th, 2007, 05:46 PM
I agree with most of the posters. She has replicator bits in her, so she's a security risk. Also, it wouldn't be fair for just her to go back just because original Weir is conveniently dead. The other duplicates were her crew now, so she had to stick with them.

jelgate
December 10th, 2007, 05:50 PM
I agree with most of the posters. She has replicator bits in her, so she's a security risk. Also, it wouldn't be fair for just her to go back just because original Weir is conveniently dead. The other duplicates were her crew now, so she had to stick with them.Did anyone see a dead Weir? Until I see a body I am going to be skepetic about the original Weir until I see a body and it wouldn't surprise me if Asuran(Asuran not Replicator) Keller was lying or misinformed about the real Dr. Weir.

Amalthea
December 10th, 2007, 06:04 PM
Did anyone see a dead Weir? Until I see a body I am going to be skepetic about the original Weir until I see a body and it wouldn't surprise me if Asuran(Asuran not Replicator) Keller was lying or misinformed about the real Dr. Weir.

Oh I don't deny the possibility Weir is alive, but the team thinks she's dead, so that is what informs their decisions.

SMB_BOOKS
January 2nd, 2008, 10:14 AM
I, too, think the real Elizabeth is not dead. I don't have anything "canon" from the show to prove that, it's just what my gut and heart are telling me. And, it's also (as a big Liz fan) what I want to happen. :weir:

So, because I think the real Elizabeth is not dead and because I think we will see the real Elizabeth again in Torri's mysterious 4th episode for Season 4, that's why (IMO) the Elizabeth in TMC had to sacrifice herself.

borgprincess
January 8th, 2008, 11:12 AM
The biggest thing for Repli!Weir was that the other 'true' Lanteans wouldn't treat her like the real thing, and she felt like she was a copy. And the real Sheppard didn't deny that argument; instead he sort of didn't respond, which just confirmed her fears.


It's so weird that in Star Trek: Voyager, they take on Seven of Nine from the Borg [who are a lot like the replicators/Asurans...], despite the risk she poses, and strive to make her regain her humanity and become a part of the crew. She started off sub-human and ended up becoming an accepted crew member and bonding with the Voyager members.

The TMC Weir is basically almost exactly like the real Weir except she has a few extra memories but her personality, her mannerisms, her determination to sacrifice herself for the others is exactly the same, she has the exact same memories as the 'real' Weir...basically, her humanity's fully intact yet they're not interested in saving her and trying to work out something with the nanites and the writers kill her off in that same ep. [Compare that with four seasons of tinkering with Seven's humanity...some characters get all the luck, huh?]

People talk about Weir being a security risk- yet I read a post where someone asked why Jeannie isn't considered the same. Hmm...?

sparklegem
January 13th, 2008, 04:15 PM
No matter how it's spinned, this ending seems illogical to me and unfortunately it kind of ruins what was otherwise a good episode for me. It felt contrived, like "We need some way for all the duplicates to die in the next 5 minutes so we don't have to actually deal with them."

In fact, I was so sure that the dupli-group intended to get shot down and that this was part of a big plan not yet revealed to the audience, because 1) the characters would never actually do that, and 2) because their deaths weren't even acknowledged. I'm glad we were shown the fallout from news that the original Elizabeth was dead, but not at the expense of ignoring the sacrificial deaths of five people exactly like the ones we know and love. I was sure of this until I read JM's blog, and found out they actually thought that was a good plan to get away :confused:.

Regarding the life signs, I don't think we've ever been given evidence that the life signs can be seen within a jumper, and if that were the case, the Asurans still would have seen the ones on the ground and not abandoned the gate.

But beyond those sorts of arguments, which seemed to be hashed out well already in this thread, it was just a bad plan, badly executed that I don't believe either John or the other characters would have agreed to. John's been saving his team for 4 years by being a good pilot, and now it just so happens that dulpi!John, who's exactly like him, pulls off a really bad stunt that gets his team killed, with everyone else, including the real John, letting him?

John says, "Even cloaked, if the Jumper so much as rustles a bush, they will pinpoint our position and blast us out of the sky." So the better plan where they'll "all have a better chance" is to fly uncloaked for an unnecessarily long time past the ships? They could have remained cloaked and just brushed a tree to draw attenion and not be so obvious a target. And if dupli-John was going to fly the jumper as the decoy, he would have insisted on doing it by himself to minimize the risk to others.

What I would have expected from the team, though, instead of rushing into some kamikaze stunt, would be to wait in the cloaked jumper for a better chance of escape or rescue. What ever happened to trusting in "Never leave people behind"? Atlantis knew they were on that planet and would have figured something out. Heck, Caldwell or Ellis could have provided a much better distraction with their ships, if only the team had waited it out.

And finally, with regards to the duplicates never being able to go to Atlantis so they might as well risk their lives, I think Orion's Star puts it pretty well.

I find that whole thinking to be utterly ridiculous and illogical.

"Oh my God, the others think I'm icky! They think I'm not good enough."
"Oh how I wish I could prove to Sheppard that I'm a real girl."
"I know! What a brilliant idea! I'll kill myself! That'll show 'em!"
"Now they'll never be able to say I'm not human. I am Elizabeth Weir!"
"Wait a minute, now I'm dead. Oh well. I sure showed them though."
I would prefer to believe that Sheppard or any of them wouldn't be okay with the duplicates sacrificing themselves for the "real" team just because they were "different". Just because it was weird for everybody doesn't mean that the duplicates couldn't have been accepted with time, and even Sheppard says security wasn't the issue: "It's not like this hasn't happened before. The other Elizabeth got infected by those little nanite things and we figured out how to stop ‘em somehow. Maybe we can do the same for you."

Bottom line for me is, TMG was much more frusterating than Double Jeopardy, which was a contrivance such that, by the end, all the duplicates died and the "real" team was fine. But Double Jeopardy was plausible. For me, the ending of TMC was very disappointing.