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Ripple in Space
December 7th, 2007, 07:30 PM
If your not familiar with my stance on Carter leading the Expedition... I like Carter better than Weir in general, but I was hoping for Carter to be recurring, and not a star of Atlantis.

I don't think there's any denying at this point that Weir has much better chemistry with the Atlantis cast than Carter does. "This Mortal Coil" really made that abundantly clear.

PG15
December 7th, 2007, 07:32 PM
What is it with you and posting these threads outside of the designated episode folder?

Ripple in Space
December 7th, 2007, 07:44 PM
What is it with you and posting these threads outside of the designated episode folder?

Since Carter wasn't even in "This Mortal Coil," I don't see why this would belong in there.

The other thread was posted before the sub-forum was opened.

Shan Bruce Lee
December 7th, 2007, 07:45 PM
If your not familiar with my stance on Carter leading the Expedition... I like Carter better than Weir in general, but I was hoping for Carter to be recurring, and not a star of Atlantis.

I don't think there's any denying at this point that Weir has much better chemistry with the Atlantis cast than Carter does. "This Mortal Coil" really made that abundantly clear.

I'm not familiar with your stance but I love Carter and can't really stand Weir.

I think once Carter's been around teh team a little while the chemistry will be there. We've barely even seen her so far this season though.

prion
December 7th, 2007, 08:01 PM
I don't think there's any denying at this point that Weir has much better chemistry with the Atlantis cast than Carter does. "This Mortal Coil" really made that abundantly clear.

Risking life and limb <G>, I agree. When Weir is with the team, you can see the chemistry, but it's not there with Carter, at least not yet.

Ruined_puzzle
December 7th, 2007, 08:09 PM
Risking life and limb <G>, I agree. When Weir is with the team, you can see the chemistry, but it's not there with Carter, at least not yet.

Chemistry isn't created. It's either there or it isn't.

scholar
December 7th, 2007, 08:12 PM
Seeing Weir in this episode made it clear to me how much the show's chemistry misses her. Wow, was Torri's acting dynamite. Oh well... back to Sam the Admin who should be Sam the Scientist...

majorsal
December 7th, 2007, 08:15 PM
give it time, guys. sam's not even been in all the 10 eps of this first half.

of course, it's if you *want* to give her a chance...




sally :)

prion
December 7th, 2007, 08:28 PM
Chemistry isn't created. It's either there or it isn't.


Uh, yup, you're right.

Shan Bruce Lee
December 7th, 2007, 08:37 PM
give it time, guys. sam's not even been in all the 10 eps of this first half.

of course, it's if you *want* to give her a chance...




sally :)

I don't think a lot of people have been willing to do that.

Personally I think even though she hasn't even been around that much and despite the fact that she's been a little out of character (only to an extent) she's still 100x better than Weir ever even had the potential to be.

That's what makes it so hard to figure out how people could feel the way they do about Weir. The character was a diplomatic negotiator put into a situation (show) that thrives on action... it didn't make sense.

And the actress seems like a better fit for a show like BSG - a show that caters to a fan-base that cares more about character drama as opposed to an action oriented franchise like StarGate that or the technology/science that are central to the SG mythology.

FoolishPleasure
December 7th, 2007, 08:39 PM
give it time, guys. sam's not even been in all the 10 eps of this first half.

of course, it's if you *want* to give her a chance...


How much time are we supposed to give Carter? I loved her on SG1, but she hasn't done anything "Carterish" on SGA. She's just a boss, an administrator. The soldier/scientist hasn't been seen at all. She's. . .*gasp*. . .BORING!

Seeing Weir back tonight really hit home how big a hole was left at Torri's departure. Carter isn't filling that hole. Same goes for the huge canyon left behind when Carson got canned. Keller will never fit in. No way, no how.

Shan Bruce Lee
December 7th, 2007, 08:47 PM
Same goes for the huge canyon left behind when Carson got canned. Keller will never fit in. No way, no how.

I'm pretty apathetic about the supporting characters. I mean I liked Carson but it doesn't make much of a difference to me if it's him or Keller there.

Irish Eyes
December 7th, 2007, 08:51 PM
Chemistry isn't created. It's either there or it isn't.

Agreed.

Now, I don't hate Carter at this moment because they really haven't pushed her down our throats. But personally, I feel she is more stand-offish on Atlantis than SG-1, maybe because on Atlantis she is the commander. Whatever the reason, I liked her better on SG-1.

And of course, I would prefer to have Weir back on Atlantis. I really miss how she interacts with all the other characters. Tonight just reinforced this for me.

Agent_Dark
December 7th, 2007, 09:48 PM
I really miss how she interacts with all the other characters. Tonight just reinforced this for me.
weir didn't interact with anyone but sheppard.

Classic
December 7th, 2007, 10:22 PM
I guess I have to go watch it again, but was there even any mention of why Carter was totally absent from This Mortal Coil? Was Shepperd supposed to be in charge? :S
Classic

majorsal
December 7th, 2007, 10:39 PM
I guess I have to go watch it again, but was there even any mention of why Carter was totally absent from This Mortal Coil? Was Shepperd supposed to be in charge? :S
Classic

no mention of sam.



sally :sam:

alyssa
December 7th, 2007, 11:00 PM
If your not familiar with my stance on Carter leading the Expedition... I like Carter better than Weir in general, but I was hoping for Carter to be recurring, and not a star of Atlantis.

I don't think there's any denying at this point that Weir has much better chemistry with the Atlantis cast than Carter does. "This Mortal Coil" really made that abundantly clear.

Thank you! It's good to see this kind of comment from someone who's not Weir fan.

The fact that they got rid of her makes me think one of two things:

They honestly don't watch the finished product and have no clue who has chemistry with whom, or there's something going on behind the scenes, and someone in power has it in for Torri.

Nobody who's actually seen her playing off the other cast members, especially Joe and David, can think that Amanda has better chemistry with this cast.

alyssa
December 7th, 2007, 11:03 PM
give it time, guys. sam's not even been in all the 10 eps of this first half.

of course, it's if you *want* to give her a chance...




sally :)

Some of us gave her ten years. We're not going to miraculously love her just because she's on Atlantis.

You've said yourself, over and over, that you're new to this show. Why don't you get your hands on seasons 1, 2 and 3, really watch them without wishing Carter was in them, and look at Torri's performance.

As has been stated already, chemistry isn't created. It's there or it's not. You can see when you see her with the cast why Joe Flanigan keeps saying he misses her.

sueKay
December 7th, 2007, 11:03 PM
In Atlantis S4, we've not had Carter...we've had a cardboard cut-out that looks like Amanda Tapping cos TPTB brought her over with no plan as to what to actually do with her, and have givn AT woefully little to work with.

majorsal
December 7th, 2007, 11:24 PM
so is this basically just another anti sam thread? can't it be merged with the other super duper anti sam and she causes cancer thread?




sally :sam:

alyssa
December 7th, 2007, 11:33 PM
so is this basically just another anti sam thread? can't it be merged with the other super duper anti sam and she causes cancer thread?




sally :sam:

You do not understand how many of the original Atlantis fans feel.

You've admitted this is a new show for you. You are not as invested as a lot of us are. How would you feel if Sam had been killed off in season four so she could be replaced by some other character who you thought had had her time?

Look at it from that perspective.

Eri13
December 7th, 2007, 11:39 PM
I don't think it's Anti-Sam...most people here said they like Sam, just more on SG-1. For me, I love Sam and Amanda Tapping, personally, but I also love Weir. And for me, the core of Atlantis is about Atlantis--protecting the city, saving it from Wraith and Replicators, etc. Yes, they explored, but not like SG-1 did. So Weir's role was different for me than a Hammond or Landry character. She was like the center of that city, and seeing someone else come in, even a character I like as much as I like Sam, felt strange. And tonight's episode shows why it worked with Weir at the helm, just like every SG-1 rerun reminds me of how much Sam's role has changed from one show to the next.

I'm not sure if I like it. I know AT can do a great job, but they haven't given her much to work with, yet. The most excited I've been about Sam was seeing her in Reunion wielding the P-90 in the hunt for Ronan. I thought she was going to get to do more of that.

But I do miss Weir, too, and well, if I enjoy the drama or humor of SGA as much as the techno-battles, that's just me. I do see it there--its a great show, and all sci-fi FX all the time has never interested me. Characters interest me, and SGA has a ton of really great, multilayered ones.

Avenger
December 7th, 2007, 11:41 PM
Chemistry can be there from the start, or it can be developed. Carter has yet to have any significant screen time except for Seer. That's one episode and small parts of others versus 60+ that Weir has been in. It's not a fair comparison. If you really want a fair comparison, go back and look at the first couple of episodes and season one and see what kind of chemistry the cast had, then come back and make a fair comparison.

bluealien
December 7th, 2007, 11:42 PM
weir didn't interact with anyone but sheppard.

True and it just felt awkward and forced. So far Carter has a great dynamic with Sheppard and I've always loved her interaction with Rodney.

Whatever chemistry Weir had with the team in the past wasn't apparant in TMC.

alyssa
December 7th, 2007, 11:50 PM
True and it just felt awkward and forced. So far Carter has a great dynamic with Sheppard and I've always loved her interaction with Rodney.

Whatever chemistry Weir had with the team in the past wasn't apparant in TMC.

We all know your ship preferences, and the fact that you hate Weir, so your opinion isn't really unexpected, is it?

Ripple in Space
December 8th, 2007, 12:37 AM
Thank you! It's good to see this kind of comment from someone who's not Weir fan.

The fact that they got rid of her makes me think one of two things:

They honestly don't watch the finished product and have no clue who has chemistry with whom, or there's something going on behind the scenes, and someone in power has it in for Torri.

Nobody who's actually seen her playing off the other cast members, especially Joe and David, can think that Amanda has better chemistry with this cast.

It's not that I'm not a Weir fan, it's that I see Carter of ole' (SG-1 S8-10) as a more well utilized, well rounded character.

I'm not sure why Weir has better chemistry with the cast than Carter. The whole McKay character was built upon David's great chemistry with Amanda, but it hasn't come through at all this season. Obviously the talent is there, but for some reason the direction isn't allowing it. And I don't see her & Shep having anywhere near the level of chemistry he had with Weir. That's also surprising, since in SG-1 Sam got along well with wise-cracking Jack...


True and it just felt awkward and forced. So far Carter has a great dynamic with Sheppard and I've always loved her interaction with Rodney.

Whatever chemistry Weir had with the team in the past wasn't apparant in TMC.

You can't possibly be serious. IMO, this was the best episode of the series, everyone brought their "A" game. Torri wasn't a standout, but that's just because they were all excellent. Well, aside from Kavan & Jewel, but I'm pretty sure they were supposed to be monotone, since ya know, robots, lol.

tofuchef
December 8th, 2007, 03:10 AM
i agree.. that weir-shepperd have a really good chemistry.. something that carter-shepperd still don't have.. because carter in atlantis isn't even carter.. just an image like someone mention.. we all see her as a strong military/scientist woman who loved to shoot at the enemy, blow up a sun, play with time, and many other crazy things.. but in atlantis.. all we see so far is you have the go.. its like jack all over again in season 8.. but at least there was already familiarity and chemistry within the group that made it bareable..

and like someone else mention.. the carter-mckay chemistry.. hasn't even been used.. and no.. few bickering doesn't even compare to past events.

IMO i rather they had kept weir a regular... and have carter as an advisor.. that way she could be herself. go on missions.. and compete against mckay.. to blow something up.. and plus i would think carter and weir would have had good chemistry together. where weir have had seek advises from carter.. and this is where carters experiences would really come in handy..

Really though...carter is really really useless in atlantis.. and so far i have seen nothing that she can provide that no other ordinary people can do.. and one more thing.. we seriously need her short military cut back.. her long hair is really wrong for her character....

gatechick
December 8th, 2007, 03:19 AM
I am having mixed feelings about this ep. I was looking forward to it because I thought with Weir being there, it would be a big ep with lots of the asurans and maybe Weir turning out to be this half good half bad character, who is being forced to over run Atlantis to destroy them. What they did was okay. I found the ep rather boring. I also wondered why the commander of Atlantis was not there. This was a major happening, and Carter is..... gone? They should have at least mentioned something like she went to earth because she was called away for a meeting and left Sheppard in charge. Oh well. I liked this ep, but I did not like it. Hoping the next has that bang I was looking for.

JackHarkness_Hot
December 8th, 2007, 03:21 AM
give it time, guys. sam's not even been in all the 10 eps of this first half.

of course, it's if you *want* to give her a chance...




sally :)

But Weir didn't need 10 episodes for a chemistry to develop. She made one right away between Sheppard and herself in the first episode.

I hate to say this but Carter would have been better as leader of SG-1 instead of Mitchell. I like Carter and she deserves to be the leader of SG-1 more so than Mitchell. She has proven herself, Mitchell gets to be leader cos he flew a F-302?? Hello, Carter saved the planet several times, flew F-302s, flew the Prometheus, saved other races asses so many times for the past 10 years. Mitchell is a joke.

Weir has that ability to be that Atlantis leader. The whole Atlantis characters have connection to Weir and this episode highlighted how even with Weir showing up in one episode and it made this episode felt so good and so right.

Carter so far I feel has no chemistry with anyone. She's trying with Sheppard but still no connection there.

oldman44
December 8th, 2007, 05:27 AM
The big problem is that Carter has been missing too many times to get the character to gel properly with the other characters. She will only be missing from two episodes in the 2nd half of the season. That may help to improve things.

alyssa
December 8th, 2007, 05:39 AM
The big problem is that Carter has been missing too many times to get the character to gel properly with the other characters. She will only be missing from two episodes in the 2nd half of the season. That may help to improve things.

You're kidding, right?

Joe and Torri had immediate chemistry. Joe and David had immediate chemistry. But with Amanda, we're supposed to wait another ten episodes, even though she's known them and been around them for at least three years?

That's ridiculous. The Carter character doesn't gel with the others, IMO. It's as simple as that. There are too many military/scientific characters already. They didn't need one who can double as both.

I just hope that TPTB will see that a lot of the people who are angry here aren't specifically Weir fans. They're people who have the brains to see what's right in front of them, and that's the fact that Weir had better chemistry with the rest of the characters than Carter ever will.

Xicer
December 8th, 2007, 05:59 AM
I don't think it's Anti-Sam...most people here said they like Sam, just more on SG-1. For me, I love Sam and Amanda Tapping, personally, but I also love Weir. And for me, the core of Atlantis is about Atlantis--protecting the city, saving it from Wraith and Replicators, etc. Yes, they explored, but not like SG-1 did. So Weir's role was different for me than a Hammond or Landry character. She was like the center of that city, and seeing someone else come in, even a character I like as much as I like Sam, felt strange. And tonight's episode shows why it worked with Weir at the helm, just like every SG-1 rerun reminds me of how much Sam's role has changed from one show to the next.

I'm not sure if I like it. I know AT can do a great job, but they haven't given her much to work with, yet. The most excited I've been about Sam was seeing her in Reunion wielding the P-90 in the hunt for Ronan. I thought she was going to get to do more of that.

But I do miss Weir, too, and well, if I enjoy the drama or humor of SGA as much as the techno-battles, that's just me. I do see it there--its a great show, and all sci-fi FX all the time has never interested me. Characters interest me, and SGA has a ton of really great, multilayered ones.

Wow, I think you just summed up my thoughts perfectly. As much as I loved Carter in SG-1 (hell, she was my favorite character after Jack) she hasn't really done anything Carter-ish lately. Unfortunately we've only seen her in about six episodes so far, most of them with her making very small appearances so I can definitely understand what people mean when they say that Weir left a big gap, and so far Carter hasn't been able to fill it. We've barely seen Carter do anything so far this season so hopefully we'll see much more of her in the second half. Since she'll be in 8 of the 10 episodes I think her chemistry with the team will improve especially from the spoilers I've been reading for certain episodes.

As for Weir, I have to agree that she really does have great chemistry with the team, and TMC definitely showed how much I missed her, even though she really only interacted with Shep most of the time. I was never strictly a Weir fan, and honestly didn't care that much when Carter was coming over, but this episode really made me realize how much of an impact Weir has made the expedition.

Integrabyte
December 8th, 2007, 06:09 AM
You're kidding, right?

Joe and Torri had immediate chemistry. Joe and David had immediate chemistry. But with Amanda, we're supposed to wait another ten episodes, even though she's known them and been around them for at least three years?

That's ridiculous. The Carter character doesn't gel with the others, IMO. It's as simple as that. There are too many military/scientific characters already. They didn't need one who can double as both.

I just hope that TPTB will see that a lot of the people who are angry here aren't specifically Weir fans. They're people who have the brains to see what's right in front of them, and that's the fact that Weir had better chemistry with the rest of the characters than Carter ever will.

You're kidding, right?


You realise you are comparing two different things. You compare the beginning of a show, where the main characters are slowly developed, with Amanda's appearance in the middle of the show after her whole SG1 history. Two distinct things with no connection whatsoever. On top of that, TPTB made a huge mistake. They killed a MAJOR character and have no idea how to blend SAM in. If you really want to make a fair comparison and talk about chemistry, elaborate on Sheppard and Larin vs. Daniel and Vala. Two identical situations with two different outcomes. Daniel and Vala had more chemistry than Sheppard and Larin will have in 5 episodes.

chocdoc
December 8th, 2007, 06:14 AM
Carter has only been in six episodes, two of which she wasn't leader of Atlantis yet. We are going to see more Carter in the second half (eight episodes) and she should be more a part of the action. Also, there should be more McKay/Carter interaction in the second half. AT and DH have great chemistry together but TPTB have been very cautious about using this in the first half, and understandably so.

AT was filming the SG-1 movies and that affected her scheduling, but I think we will see more integration of Carter in the second half. Also, for me it is realistic that Carter wouldn't quite fit into Atlantis at this point. Why should she? She's there in a leader position, away from people she knows well. She shouldn't fit in quite yet. She's out of her element, but I think she will start to get more comfortable as time goes on.

Integrabyte
December 8th, 2007, 06:19 AM
AT was filming the SG-1 movies and that affected her scheduling, but I think we will see more integration of Carter in the second half. Also, for me it is realistic that Carter wouldn't quite fit into Atlantis at this point. Why should she? She's there in a leader position, away from people she knows well. She shouldn't fit in quite yet. She's out of her element, but I think she will start to get more comfortable as time goes on.

....uhmm...why not kill Weir when Carter is available? Like this she takes her role full time and TPTB don't have any excuses for failing to integrate her. SGA has jumped the shark!

joebags
December 8th, 2007, 06:20 AM
Carter is great on SG1, but on SGA she just stands around and looks lost. She is even saying the exact phrases Weir used to use. Its like TPTB traded a brunette for a blonde.

I don't like her on SGA, but I'm sure I'll love her in the SG1 movies coming out in 2008.

Integrabyte
December 8th, 2007, 06:24 AM
Carter is great on SG1, but on SGA she just stands around and looks lost. She is even saying the exact phrases Weir used to use. Its like TPTB traded a brunette for a blonde.

I don't like her on SGA, but I'm sure I'll love her in the SG1 movies coming out in 2008.

...an actress is as good as her script or her capability to act. Tapping is not like Keller and she can act. Thus, the script buries her :(.

chocdoc
December 8th, 2007, 06:25 AM
Carter is great on SG1, but on SGA she just stands around and looks lost. She is even saying the exact phrases Weir used to use. Its like TPTB traded a brunette for a blonde.

I don't like her on SGA, but I'm sure I'll love her in the SG1 movies coming out in 2008.


I know I'll love her in the SG-1 movies too! But I also like her on SGA so far, and I'm looking forward to a more active role for her in the second half. I also really liked Carter in Reunion at the end when she went off world on the rescue mission and in Seer when she had to make some tough military decisions.

Needless to say, I also really liked Weir. I wanted to see Carter and Weir interact (liked them in New Order), but we didn't get to see that. I think they are two strong women, and I think TPTB often do not allow two female characters to interaction much (unlike Sam and Janet in SG-1). Weir and Teyla were finally getting to have somewhat of an interesting relationship and then of course that is dropped. Now, we still haven't seen much of Carter with Teyla.

BerrySciFi
December 8th, 2007, 06:42 AM
I like Carter much more than Weir. Having said that, SGA SORELY misses Weir, and if TPTB cared about what the fans think they would try to get TH signed up for season 5. Since season 5 starts filming in February- this seems highly unlikely. Also, I don't think any pro-Weir posts automatically equal anti-Carter. I don't see how killing off Weir makes the show better- in my view it makes the show much, much worse. I'm not sure if I'll even bother watching SGA anymore. As I reflect on the ratings (or lack thereof), I don't think I'm the only one who feels this way.

ToasterOnFire
December 8th, 2007, 07:14 AM
In Atlantis S4, we've not had Carter...we've had a cardboard cut-out that looks like Amanda Tapping cos TPTB brought her over with no plan as to what to actually do with her, and have givn AT woefully little to work with.
I'm bummed to agree with this statement. While Carter was my favorite character on SG1, I think what we're watching here on SGA is a poor copy. I wonder if TPTB didn't want to have Carter overwhelm the show, so they went too far in the opposite direction. Carter has hardly any scenes and rarely interacts with the team. She's added little to nothing to this season so far, IMO. It's frustrating.

I don't see the point of bringing over Carter and making all this hubbub when Carter ended up doing the exact same things that Weir does, if not less.

Integrabyte
December 8th, 2007, 07:15 AM
In Atlantis S4, we've not had Carter...we've had a cardboard cut-out that looks like Amanda Tapping cos TPTB brought her over with no plan as to what to actually do with her, and have givn AT woefully little to work with.


Truth hurts...AUCH!


*green for that ;)*

chocdoc
December 8th, 2007, 07:54 AM
I like Carter much more than Weir. Having said that, SGA SORELY misses Weir, and if TPTB cared about what the fans think they would try to get TH signed up for season 5. Since season 5 starts filming in February- this seems highly unlikely. Also, I don't think any pro-Weir posts automatically equal anti-Carter. I don't see how killing off Weir makes the show better- in my view it makes the show much, much worse. I'm not sure if I'll even bother watching SGA anymore. As I reflect on the ratings (or lack thereof), I don't think I'm the only one who feels this way.


If TPTB cared about what the fans think? There are many different fan opinions out there. There are many fans who want Carter there, many who want Weir, many who wouldn't mind both there, etc. It is impossible to do what the "fans" want because there are so many diverse opinions.

I personally would have liked both Weir and Carter on the show, but I'm someone who is watching SGA because of Carter.

As far as ratings, take this to the ratings thread. Much debate about season 4 ratings, the total figures, and DVR influence when comparing seasons 3 and 4. Your view is that SGA has lost viewers -- the other view is that it has stayed pretty even thus far.

JackHarkness_Hot
December 8th, 2007, 08:24 AM
I'm bummed to agree with this statement. While Carter was my favorite character on SG1, I think what we're watching here on SGA is a poor copy. I wonder if TPTB didn't want to have Carter overwhelm the show, so they went too far in the opposite direction. Carter has hardly any scenes and rarely interacts with the team. She's added little to nothing to this season so far, IMO. It's frustrating.

I don't see the point of bringing over Carter and making all this hubbub when Carter ended up doing the exact same things that Weir does, if not less.

I agree with everything you said and other posters along the same line.


Also I can see how some posters are saying,

**In a south californian accent**

"Uhh... you gotta give Carter a chance, she's.. umm... Colonel Carter! The one from 1x01 "Children of the Gods", when she was still a Major, give her a chance! Ack guys! She's gonna bring in soooooooooo much ratings, cos she's a veteran of the Stargate franchise! Plus she's a blonde"



Hello!!!! If I wanted a toy with my McDonald's meal, I would have ordered a "Happy Meal". What I mean is, if I wanted Carter, I would watched Stargate SG-1 and not Atlantis.

On SG-1, she and Jack are the perfect couple, but on Stargate Atlantis, she doesn't have that zone of comfort. We all love Carter cos of her Carter-ism (strong, brilliant, intelligent woman on the go!), but she doesn't do that on Atlantis as correctly mentioned. In 6 episodes she has appeared in, all she does is act like Weir. She may dress like Carter, look like Carter and even talk like Carter but she doesn't act like her and she doesn't even think like the Carter we know.

Where is the outrageous plan to save the day that is mysterously cooped up out of her head that an average Joe wouldn't have though off!? Where is the techno-babble?

I prefer the SG-1 Carter tbh, this Atlantis Carter is such a disappointment.

Rachel500
December 8th, 2007, 08:26 AM
I guess I have a different view to most of those who've posted so far.

Let me get my preferences out of the way first: I love Sam and Weir as characters. My preference would be to have both on Atlantis in some way.

I've watched SGA from the beginning and IMO, S1 chemistry between the cast was good but not as good as SG1's S1 chemistry which just flowed beautifully. Certainly, for me it took until The Storm/The Eye for SGA's cast chemistry to click fully into place.

SGA S2 for me the cast struggled to find a rhythm - partly due to the change with Ford/Ronon, partly due to the stories and it was evident with the retrovirus arc that they were struggling to write Weir's character effectively or truthfully within the arc.

In S3 I thought the chemistry had actually just snapped into place even though it was still evident that the original premise for Weir being Atlantis leader was holding by a very thin thread given the threats they were facing.

With S4, with all the changes I agree the chemistry isn't quite there yet when they are an ensemble, but I do see chemistry between Sam and the individual characters and I am enjoying the role Sam is now playing. I just think its a different set-up to Weir.

Weir was introduced as being one of the central characters in the same way that Jack was central when he led the SGC in S8. With Sam its clear that TPTB have reverted to a more Hammond model, actually probably falling more into Landry land where Sam gets some meatiness occasionally (as in The Seer) but isn't the focus 9 out of 10 times. So I personally think the dynamic between Sam and the team is being written and played very differently to how Weir and the team dynamic was written in S1-S3. Weir while being the leader was clearly a part of the team family - Sam is not; she's slightly on the outside looking in, an aunt instead of being part of the main family nucleus.

The dynamics between her and the others are being written and played very differently as a result. Sam/Shep has less 'sparkage' but I think that's a good thing because what I'm seeing is a professional working camaraderie without overtones which has plenty chemistry just not chemistry. Her scenes with Rodney have been great and I actually liked how they worked together in Tabula Rasa. I liked the Sam/Ronon scenes in Reunion. The only one I think they haven't explored really yet which I would have liked to see is really Sam/Teyla.

Like Jack once you move a character into command you can't show them doing what you previously had them doing very often - Sam can't be the one in the lab resolving the problem and shouldn't be the one in the field rescuing Shep's cute butt as great as the scenes of her doing that in Reunion were. There is a difference and for me having seen Sam for years in the field, it's a change having to adjust to view her as the 'Hammond/Landry' character. I can appreciate why some fans of the character may not like it at all.

However, given the parameters for Sam's new role within a team structure, and the Hammond/Landry nature of what she's been given then I personally rate Sam (and AT's performance), have enjoyed what I've seen and what I've seen has included chemistry even if it isn't clicking completely yet - but then for me it didn't click completely from day one with the original SGA cast nor the reformation on S2 so I don't mind so much especially as its clear the stories are more character driven now so its likely it will happen.

Still, everyone has their own preferences and chemistry is in the eye of the beholder - and the above is just MO.

Chailyn
December 8th, 2007, 08:43 AM
I have to agree with the original poster. Even though I wasn't really a fan of either Carter or Weir, the show feels like it's missing something, imo. And even though I'm not a big fan of Carter, I still liked her at times on SG-1 and will look forward to the movies. But, on Atlantis, she doesn't seem to be the same character, and it seems at times that she's included in a scene just to state the obvious (in a similar way that Weir was). I'm not seeing an improvement from one actress to the other, so I'm beginning to think they should have just left things alone.

Who knows, maybe Carter will get more chemistry with the cast as time goes on, but right now I'm not feeling it. The only thing I liked with Carter was the conflict with Ronon. I wish we got more insight into her (shakey)transition to Atlantis besides a token episode. This is her first big command after all. It should be somewhat a focus.

The lack of chemistry in the cast is just another thing leading to my growing indifference about the show. By season 4, a show shouldn't be facing these problems. This is season 1 drama. :cool:

sueKay
December 8th, 2007, 08:56 AM
The only way I'd be happy with Sam on Atlantis would be if it was Sam from s7 or earlier....The character underwent a transformation in s8 and I've disliked her since then

Killdeer
December 8th, 2007, 10:29 AM
I was one who didn't like the idea of Carter coming over. But I watched the first three episodes, and thought it might work out after all. I liked her in Reunion - I really did. Amanda's acting has greatly improved over S9-10, and with the bit of added tension between her and Ronon and her and Sheppard, I thought this might actually have potential.

I very much regret to say that it hasn't panned out like I hoped, and seeing Elizabeth's natural chemistry with the other characters in TMC only reinforced what we've lost. Carter has done nothing more or less in TR or the Seer than Weir would have done, and the attempts to force a relationship between her and Sheppard in place of the natural relationship between Shep and Weir make me want to throw something at the screen (I don't mean "relationship" in the romantic sense, less anyone misunderstand me). Not to mention the relationship that Rodney and Elizabeth had - that can't be duplicated. They're trying too hard to make everyone like and accept Carter - I like her better when there's more tension. They don't have to show Shep and Carter having screaming matches at each other, but some realistic tension would go a long way to changing the feeling that they just yanked Weir out and pushed Carter in - saying the same lines, making the same decisions, even standing the same way on the same balcony. :rolleyes: I watched Carter become instant best buddies with Cam and Vala - I said months and months ago that I didn't want to see the same thing happen with Sheppard, and yet.....here we are. :(

Other people have said that you can't force chemistry where it isn't. I completely agree. Carter isn't bad, she isn't doing anything wrong, but....it's not working for me. Carter will never have Elizabeth's chemistry with the cast, just like Jonas on SG-1 was a nice guy (I really did like Jonas), but he didn't have Daniel's passion or connection with the team. And it just wasn't as interesting. There wasn't that spark there.

And needless to say, all of the above is only my own opinion, and I am not trying to speak for any other fan or fan group. Add other disclaimers as needed.

LoneStar1836
December 8th, 2007, 11:11 AM
In Atlantis S4, we've not had Carter...we've had a cardboard cut-out that looks like Amanda Tapping cos TPTB brought her over with no plan as to what to actually do with her, and have givn AT woefully little to work with.Totally agree. Carter has been sorely underutilized and the skills that she has to offer have been totally forgotten about. I think they have been forgotten about in part because the writers don't want her moving in on the other characters' turf, ie Shep (her military skills) and McKay (her scientific skills).


I'm bummed to agree with this statement. While Carter was my favorite character on SG1, I think what we're watching here on SGA is a poor copy. I wonder if TPTB didn't want to have Carter overwhelm the show, so they went too far in the opposite direction. Carter has hardly any scenes and rarely interacts with the team. She's added little to nothing to this season so far, IMO. It's frustrating.

I don't see the point of bringing over Carter and making all this hubbub when Carter ended up doing the exact same things that Weir does, if not less.That's what I think is going through their minds. There was already enough backlash about Weir being cut loose so they wrote Carter low key so she wouldn't stand out and contribute to the show in a different way. So far I've found the character pretty useless, and I had no qualms about her coming over to SGA. I was hoping she would add to the show, but so far the writers have yet to justify their decision to do the switch.


As far as the chemistry question goes, well they need some time to establish some, imo. I've liked some of the individual scenes like with Shep, but the character just has so very little to do, little screen time so far that the writers/actors haven't worked out the kinks of interacting with each other. *shrug* I didn't find Weir in season one all that great early on.

Avenger
December 8th, 2007, 11:20 AM
You're kidding, right?

Joe and Torri had immediate chemistry. Joe and David had immediate chemistry. But with Amanda, we're supposed to wait another ten episodes, even though she's known them and been around them for at least three years?

That's ridiculous. The Carter character doesn't gel with the others, IMO. It's as simple as that. There are too many military/scientific characters already. They didn't need one who can double as both.

She hasn't been around the Atlantis folks for three years. The only person on the Atlantis cast you can make that claim for is David Hewlett as they have had half a dozen episodes of SG-1 and Atlantis where they have worked together.

Furthermore, Carter and Sheppard had an incredible scene and great interaction in Seer, which was the last episode we saw Carter in and the first episode where her role as leader of Atlantis had truly been established by the writers.

Killdeer
December 8th, 2007, 11:23 AM
Furthermore, Carter and Sheppard had an incredible scene and great interaction in Seer, which was the last episode we saw Carter in and the first episode where her role as leader of Atlantis had truly been established by the writers.

I didn't like those scenes. They rather turned me off of the episode.

My opinion only.

marielabbott
December 8th, 2007, 11:42 AM
I didn't like those scenes. They rather turned me off of the episode.

My opinion only.

Also just my opinion, but the Carter/Sheppard scenes were a large part of why I did not like that episode. I see no chemistry between the two.

Cautious Explorer
December 8th, 2007, 11:52 AM
As for Weir, I have to agree that she really does have great chemistry with the team, and TMC definitely showed how much I missed her, even though she really only interacted with Shep most of the time. I was never strictly a Weir fan, and honestly didn't care that much when Carter was coming over, but this episode really made me realize how much of an impact Weir has made the expedition.

You've summed up my feelings. I wasn't thrilled with the idea of Carter coming onboard (I would have felt the same about any SG-1 character) but at least my favorites were still going to be there. Even with the team still in place this season hasn't felt right. I didn't realize what Elizabeth brought to the show until she returned and it finally felt we had SGA back again.


I very much regret to say that it hasn't panned out like I hoped, and seeing Elizabeth's natural chemistry with the other characters in TMC only reinforced what we've lost. Carter has done nothing more or less in TR or the Seer than Weir would have done, and the attempts to force a relationship between her and Sheppard in place of the natural relationship between Shep and Weir make me want to throw something at the screen (I don't mean "relationship" in the romantic sense, less anyone misunderstand me). Not to mention the relationship that Rodney and Elizabeth had - that can't be duplicated. They're trying too hard to make everyone like and accept Carter - I like her better when there's more tension. They don't have to show Shep and Carter having screaming matches at each other, but some realistic tension would go a long way to changing the feeling that they just yanked Weir out and pushed Carter in - saying the same lines, making the same decisions, even standing the same way on the same balcony. :rolleyes: I watched Carter become instant best buddies with Cam and Vala - I said months and months ago that I didn't want to see the same thing happen with Sheppard, and yet.....here we are. :(

Other people have said that you can't force chemistry where it isn't. I completely agree. Carter isn't bad, she isn't doing anything wrong, but....it's not working for me. Carter will never have Elizabeth's chemistry with the cast, just like Jonas on SG-1 was a nice guy (I really did like Jonas), but he didn't have Daniel's passion or connection with the team. And it just wasn't as interesting. There wasn't that spark there.

And needless to say, all of the above is only my own opinion, and I am not trying to speak for any other fan or fan group. Add other disclaimers as needed.

You've explained this so well. No conflict, no chemistry, no character. How am I supposed to accept Carter?

bluealien
December 8th, 2007, 01:24 PM
Weir had obviously interacted with Sheppard and the team for 3 years so they had built up a relationship in that time. Overall I would say that she had the best chemistry with Rodney and they had a true friendship. Weir and Sheppard bantered a lot and you felt at times that neither one really ever knew the other. They never really shared anything except work related issues but it never really got any deeper than that. They had a nice easy going relationship but the main thing that held that relationship together was Atlantis but we saw them drifting apart in that respect more and more and by the end of season three they seemed to have very different views and opinons on what was best for Atlantis.

In TMC Weir only interacted with Sheppard and I really wouldn't say either of them had any great chemisty, or even seemed comfortable with one another. Sheppard was his usual awkward self around her and didn't seem too sure on how he should act or treat this duplicate Weir. She seemed like she was giving him one of her pep talks where they didn't always see eye to eye. The guilt that he couldn't save the real Weir seemed to be lingering there with Sheppard, and you could see he wasn't sure about how he felt about having her/repli Weir back. I don't think he would have been comfortable with letting her return to Atlantis, and didn't put up too much resistance when she suggested the diversion. I think Sheppard realised that this wasn't the real Weir and that he had to let her go. He finally seemed to have closure when he said he had shipped all her personal items back to earth.

Weir was like the mother of the team keeping her boys in line and either snipping or wringing her hands in worry. They now have to stand on their own 2 feet. Carter's is more professional and is someone that Sheppard has more reason to obey not just because she is his commanding officer but because he respects her experience, and what she can contribute to the defense of Atlantis. They seem more on the same wavelenght when it comes to what they need to do to defend Atlantis. This is the kind of relationship I want to see between the leaders of Atlantis and they have a great dynamic. I want to see them bounce ideas off each other and use their collective experience to be able to solve the problems of the day. Carter so far has done a great job of this.

She is not there to be front and center, that was the whole idea of bringing her over. She is more like the Landry of SG1 and that is what JM said she would be from the start. It gives the team the opportunity to stand on their own two feet and gives more screentime to develop them instead of trying to find ways to give Weir something to do. I don't want Carter shoved into eps when she has really nothing to contribute. Each episode she has featured in so far she has been able to contribute something, and I want it to remain like this.

Sheppard is still the leader of the team and he will always be the main focus. I think we will see more of Carter in the second half of the show and again I hope she remains fairly low key, but continues to contribute in vital ways as she did in the eps she featured. She has a different dynamic with Sheppard than Weir had but just as good or even better IMO. They have a great understanding and respect for each other and I think Sheppard had outgrown Weirs kind of leadership. This was evident in season three as they were not on the same page more often than not, and this cannot be good for the overall safety of Atlantis. I think Sheppard will grow more and more under Carters leadership and will become the mature confident leader that we have seen of late. The slightly immature and cocky flyboy has grown into a mature and more hardened man, and this will make for more darker and grittier eps for the future which I am looking forward to.

prion
December 8th, 2007, 01:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by majorsal
give it time, guys. sam's not even been in all the 10 eps of this first half.

of course, it's if you *want* to give her a chance...

sally


I don't think a lot of people have been willing to do that.

Personally I think even though she hasn't even been around that much and despite the fact that she's been a little out of character (only to an extent) she's still 100x better than Weir ever even had the potential to be.

That's what makes it so hard to figure out how people could feel the way they do about Weir. The character was a diplomatic negotiator put into a situation (show) that thrives on action... it didn't make sense.

And the actress seems like a better fit for a show like BSG - a show that caters to a fan-base that cares more about character drama as opposed to an action oriented franchise like StarGate that or the technology/science that are central to the SG mythology.

The thing is that in tv-land, people don't give characters much of a chance. networks give shows a few episodes and then can 'em if the ratings aren't good enough. Many people who watch TV have the attention span of a gnat ;)

But also, Sam doesn't NEED to be developed anymore. She's had a decade. If the writers couldn't develop her in a decade, well... *cough*. I don't think carter has any more potential than Weir; after watching last night's episode and the one in syndication, Weir is capable of diplomacy and launching into war as well. Her character could have been a lot better, and Torri worked with what was given her, but the writers seem to struggle when it comes to writing material such as negotiations.

Agent_Dark
December 8th, 2007, 02:40 PM
people keep using this 'chemistry' word as if its the answer to everything. what is chemistry? is the ability to be able to write 'omg they are teh lurrrve' fics based off a few looks in an edited scene? is it how the actors themselves get along when cameras are not rolling? or is it a convenient excuse as to why one character is better than another, without any real objective thought behind it?

vaberella
December 8th, 2007, 03:09 PM
people keep using this 'chemistry' word as if its the answer to everything. what is chemistry? is the ability to be able to write 'omg they are teh lurrrve' fics based off a few looks in an edited scene? is it how the actors themselves get along when cameras are not rolling? or is it a convenient excuse as to why one character is better than another, without any real objective thought behind it?

I have to say I totally agree. Those were the exact same questions running through my head when I read the posts above. :S

:sam::sheppard:

elbo
December 8th, 2007, 04:00 PM
I agree. When Weir is with the team, you can see the chemistry, but it's not there with Carter, at least not yet.

Maby, you can see, but not me. There is NO chemistry between Weir and the rest of characters, unless the one you want to see. If you want it bad enough you can see the same chemistry between the team and a whale.

darkrose
December 8th, 2007, 05:04 PM
But I also like her on SGA so far, and I'm looking forward to a more active role for her in the second half. I also really liked Carter in Reunion at the end when she went off world on the rescue mission

I hated that, because from a purely practical standpoint, it made absolutely no sense: the current military commander and chief scientist are captured, so we'll send the new base commander, the military XO, and the unofficial science second-in-command off on the rescue mission. Huh?

It's frustrating to me because Sam's presence raises all kinds of questions: what's her relationship on the org chart to John? Why did the IOA decide that the expedition would now be under American military command, rather than civilian? Why did they give command to someone with no previous command experience, and no experience in the Pegasus Galaxy? There a lot of ways they could have answered any of these, but so far, they've just been ignoring the questions.

JSPuddlejumper
December 8th, 2007, 05:40 PM
I love Amanda Tapping as an actresses and she is great on SG1.

BUT so far

For Atlantis, the actresses who plays Elizabether Weir is the best.

But keep in mind that Carter has been absent for most episodes, and is filming the Ark of Truth.

However, they should definitely bring back Weir for more episodes (season 5) and possibly bring her all the way back in a 2 hours season (possibly) series finale in season 5.

p-pos
December 8th, 2007, 05:47 PM
it is kind of hard to judge the two characters especially when sam has been missing for most of the season.

i am not understanding what all this chemistry talk is. In TMC Weir fitted in better because the viewer was used to seeing her with the team for three years doesn't mean she has more chemistry with the team. sam has had one scene with ronon, none with teyla, the scenes with john are fine and her and rodney are good.

to me weir/carter are interchangeable as leaders of atlantis.

Cautious Explorer
December 8th, 2007, 05:49 PM
I love Amanda Tapping as an actresses and she is great on SG1.

BUT so far

For Atlantis, the actresses who plays Elizabether Weir is the best.

But keep in mind that Carter has been absent for most episodes, and is filming the Ark of Truth.

However, they should definitely bring back Weir for more episodes (season 5) and possibly bring her all the way back in a 2 hours season (possibly) series finale in season 5.

You're not the first to offer this excuse, but I fail to understand how this is a compelling argument for why Carter is a good fit for Atlantis: "Oh, you'll like her when the actress finally has time to show up and play the role."

Well, maybe if AT finally has time to portray Carter on Atlantis, she'll also find the time to put a little spark into her portrayal. So far, she seems to be putting forth a minimal effort.

toomanysides
December 8th, 2007, 05:58 PM
I have to admit the only reason I am watching the show now on a consistent basis is because of Carter. I watched SG-1 and sometimes (actually rarely) I would watch SGA after it. Something about the show didn't click for me. What I'm really looking for is some character development for Carter. A new environment, a new position. Right now it feels like wasted opportunities over and over (I do realized SG1 movies!). Good thing I'm actually interested in the rest of the show and their characters (thanks to Weir being gone), otherwise I would just watch something else.

Let's just hope 2nd half hold more of Carter. I do think she fits in with the cast, the problem is they haven't allowed many opportunities to do anything with that (and please let her do something science/tech-y for once, please?).

I found it interesting that in Teyla's dreams John spoke of Carter not liking her. Why no follow though with that? Also Teyla not telling anyone yet? Why not just have a scene of her telling Carter, she is the leader... right?

prion
December 8th, 2007, 06:13 PM
people keep using this 'chemistry' word as if its the answer to everything. what is chemistry? is the ability to be able to write 'omg they are teh lurrrve' fics based off a few looks in an edited scene? is it how the actors themselves get along when cameras are not rolling? or is it a convenient excuse as to why one character is better than another, without any real objective thought behind it?

Uh, no, chemistry is not love scenes (if that's what you're implying). Chemistry is when two characters (gender doesn't matter) basically hit it off. They work well together. It has nothing to do with who is perceived to be better, but how well they work off each other on screen.


Maby, you can see, but not me. There is NO chemistry between Weir and the rest of characters, unless the one you want to see. If you want it bad enough you can see the same chemistry between the team and a whale.

I do see Weir meshing better with the team than Carter. First, three years of working with them. carter is still the new kid on the block, the fifth wheel, although the writers have tried to force the comraderie in some scenes, which to me, doesn't work, mostly because they expect viewers not to wonder... wait a second, she arrived on base last week and now this week they're all hanging around having a meal?

Hmm, I don't think ROdney had chemistry with the whale. A sort of affection, like toward a pet, but that's it ;)


It's frustrating to me because Sam's presence raises all kinds of questions: what's her relationship on the org chart to John? Why did the IOA decide that the expedition would now be under American military command, rather than civilian? Why did they give command to someone with no previous command experience, and no experience in the Pegasus Galaxy? There a lot of ways they could have answered any of these, but so far, they've just been ignoring the questions.

because it's what the producers wanted to do. I don't know if we'll ever get answers on the show why they promoted carter to run Atlantis instead of someone with more experience. And yes, the writers are good at ignoring explaining stuff viewers may be wondering, but just figure, blow up some spaceships, and that will appease us all ;)

Lord batchi ball
December 8th, 2007, 06:23 PM
I like Carter better than Wier.

I didn't think I would but I guess I grew tired of the "moral" approach to certain tasks.

I'm not saying that Carter is ruthless just more decisive when it counts and is not afraid to do things. And with all that moral juck that Daniel has been speaking for the past 10 years would have rubbed off on her so in conclusion has the best of both attributes. IMO :D

LoneStar1836
December 8th, 2007, 06:30 PM
Uh, no, chemistry is not love scenes (if that's what you're implying). Chemistry is when two characters (gender doesn't matter) basically hit it off. They work well together. It has nothing to do with who is perceived to be better, but how well they work off each other on screen.Exactly. Or that is how I see it as well.

And seeing as how I'm anti-ship on Stargate, that doesn't even factor into it. :S

chocdoc
December 8th, 2007, 06:53 PM
Uh, no, chemistry is not love scenes (if that's what you're implying). Chemistry is when two characters (gender doesn't matter) basically hit it off. They work well together. It has nothing to do with who is perceived to be better, but how well they work off each other on screen.





This is how I would define chemistry too. With this definition I would say that Carter has really good chemistry with Mckay (and a long history of it), and has very good chemistry with Sheppard at this point. I like what I see so far with Carter and Ronon, but there hasn't been much interaction, so it is difficult to tell. Carter and Teyla have rarely interacted, so I have no clue at this point about their chemistry. I do think that Sam has had great chemistry on SG-1 with numerous characters (including all the SG-1 team and then a number of recurring characters such as Janet, Jacob, and Martouf). I have every reason to believe that, as time develops and as we see more interaction with Carter/Ronon and Carter/Telya, there will be chemistry there as well -- not enough interaction between them to tell at this point. I do like Carter/Mckay, and Carter/Sheppard chemistry so far, and I do think that they work well together. I also think it will help now that Sam will be in 8/10 episodes in the second half of the season.

I'm actually looking forward to:

Carter and Zelenka (sp?) interaction in Quarantine!

markaudette
December 8th, 2007, 07:15 PM
Ripple, I deeply and sincerely want to thank you for noticing the great chemistry Tori has with the cast. The great chemisrty Weir has with the Atlantis team. seriously, thank you!

I really admire Amanda Tapping. She has helped define what Stargate is from the beginning. But I feel that she doesn't belong on Atlantis. She doesn't belong on the show as a main cast member. I could swallow the kind of cameo Admiral Janeway made in Star Trek: Nemesis but as the leader of Atlantis, I won't ever buy Carter on the show. Not when Torri Higginson has such a god-given natural chemistry that glows like the sun. I mean, watching Weir on screen is like drinking warm cocoa on a cold morning. But watching Amanda on screen is like having to deal with an elephant in the room. Like listening to someone scrape their fingernails down a chalk board. Amanda Tapping is not healthy for the show. Colonel Carter is not healthy for the show. Weir is the only one who belongs as the leader of Atlantis.

majorsal
December 8th, 2007, 07:30 PM
I hated that, because from a purely practical standpoint, it made absolutely no sense: the current military commander and chief scientist are captured, so we'll send the new base commander, the military XO, and the unofficial science second-in-command off on the rescue mission. Huh?

It's frustrating to me because Sam's presence raises all kinds of questions: what's her relationship on the org chart to John? Why did the IOA decide that the expedition would now be under American military command, rather than civilian? Why did they give command to someone with no previous command experience, and no experience in the Pegasus Galaxy? There a lot of ways they could have answered any of these, but so far, they've just been ignoring the questions.

she was sg1's commander in s8. she was also 2nd in command for the 7 previous seasons. she had command experience.



sally :)

StarSkimmer
December 8th, 2007, 08:04 PM
I like Carter better than Wier.

I didn't think I would but I guess I grew tired of the "moral" approach to certain tasks.

I'm not saying that Carter is ruthless just more decisive when it counts and is not afraid to do things. And with all that moral juck that Daniel has been speaking for the past 10 years would have rubbed off on her so in conclusion has the best of both attributes. IMO :D

!?!?!You grew tired of the "moral" approach?!?!! What's that supposed to mean? Maybe I'm misinterpreting it, but seriously, the alarm bells ringing like crazy right now... One of the things I love most about SGA is the moral issues it brings up with the situations, such as Micheal (ethics of changing a Wraith into a human) or more recently, what Sheppard did at the end of Miller's Crossing

when he fed the person who'd kidnapped Rodney and Jeannie to the wraith.

To me, Elizabeth made the show more interesting when we saw her grappling with those issues.

And FYI, Weir is perfectly decisive when it counts.

She did authorize the supposed torture of Kavanaugh when they thought he was a Goauld, didn't she?

Personally I think that bringing Carter in was a mistake - because she's doing even LESS than Weir did. Actually, I suppose I shouldn't complain - the lack of her in all the S4 episodes is the only reason I've been able to stomach them in the first place. :S

And I'm not even a hard-core Elizabeth fan; I just recently really started to miss her after the first few episodes of S4. Talk about not appreciating what you have until it's lost...

Ripple in Space
December 8th, 2007, 10:27 PM
I won't ever buy Carter on the show. Not when Torri Higginson has such a god-given natural chemistry that glows like the sun. I mean, watching Weir on screen is like drinking warm cocoa on a cold morning. But watching Amanda on screen is like having to deal with an elephant in the room. Like listening to someone scrape their fingernails down a chalk board. Amanda Tapping is not healthy for the show. Colonel Carter is not healthy for the show. Weir is the only one who belongs as the leader of Atlantis.

Well I wouldn't go that far. Torri was great, but Weir was poorly written in S3, even Torri noticed it. Weir's moral code became wildly erratic.

The problem with Carter is that she's too good at everything. Rodney concedes that Carter's the better scientist (though he's smarter). And she is John's military superior. While being a man, he's stronger, I'm not so sure he could even take her in a fight. She's even arguably had more off world experience than Ronon. I don't think tptb are sure how to use her.

Shan Bruce Lee
December 9th, 2007, 01:07 AM
The problem with Carter is that she's too good at everything. Rodney concedes that Carter's the better scientist (though he's smarter). And she is John's military superior. While being a man, he's stronger, I'm not so sure he could even take her in a fight. She's even arguably had more off world experience than Ronon. I don't think tptb are sure how to use her.

That's not a problem. That's exactly how it works. The one with the most experience and knowledge is the one that stays back and calls the shots.

Uber
December 9th, 2007, 01:13 AM
We all know your ship preferences, and the fact that you hate Weir, so your opinion isn't really unexpected, is it?As opposed to yours...which is a complete surprise to all.

Shan Bruce Lee
December 9th, 2007, 01:14 AM
Not when Torri Higginson has such a god-given natural chemistry that glows like the sun. I mean, watching Weir on screen is like drinking warm cocoa on a cold morning.

I wish I could think of a way to say what I want to say about this that wouldn't get me banned.

I've seen a lot of people talking about TH's "chemistry" the last 2 days but I just don't see it. I don't even see "decent." All I've ever seen is a drama queen.

Uber
December 9th, 2007, 01:20 AM
she was sg1's commander in s8. she was also 2nd in command for the 7 previous seasons. she had command experience.



sally :)Plus she was briefly in charge of the R&D department at Area 51 until she was pulled back into SG-1 to deal with the new threat.

Uber
December 9th, 2007, 01:28 AM
I wish I could think of a way to say what I want to say about this that wouldn't get me banned.

I've seen a lot of people talking about TH's "chemistry" the last 2 days but I just don't see it. I don't even see "decent." All I've ever seen is a drama queen.Chemistry either is or it isn't...but the perception of that chemistry that someone swears exists isn't universal. I know there are characters and pairings that I thought had chemistry out the ears that others felt was non-existent and vice versa.

As for Carter's chemistry...let's see. She's interacted with Shep, Mer, Keller and Woolsey...and had a brief run in with Ronon. So far, with what little I've seen her there, I think she's developing a fantastic chemistry with all of the above. I'd like to see more of her and Ronon and I'd love for an actual moment with her and Teyla. And I really, really want to see her interact with Czech-ilicious Radek and Lorne too.

Agent_Dark
December 9th, 2007, 01:31 AM
We all know your ship preferences, and the fact that you hate Weir, so your opinion isn't really unexpected, is it?

yeah, but you're anti-s4 so therefore your opinion is irrelevant and null :)

sexy_penguin
December 9th, 2007, 01:36 AM
yeah, but you're anti-s4 so therefore your opinion is irrelevant and null :)

Um.. and you're pro-season 4 so that makes your opinion.... what exactly?

Works both ways.

Linzi
December 9th, 2007, 01:42 AM
Chemistry either is or it isn't...but the perception of that chemistry that someone swears exists isn't universal. I know there are characters and pairings that I thought had chemistry out the ears that others felt was non-existent and vice versa.

As for Carter's chemistry...let's see. She's interacted with Shep, Mer, Keller and Woolsey...and had a brief run in with Ronon. So far, with what little I've seen her there, I think she's developing a fantastic chemistry with all of the above. I'd like to see more of her and Ronon and I'd love for an actual moment with her and Teyla. And I really, really want to see her interact with Czech-ilicious Radek and Lorne too.
I agree. It's all subjective, isn't it? I think Carter has great chemistry with McKay, Sheppard, Keller and Ronon so far - some others don't. So? Big deal. Others are entitled not to see that, I think.

I feel it's early days! Carter has only been in a few episodes and hasn't had a lot of screentime. I am pleased with her interactions with the cast, and feel she's really fitting in well. Time will tell how this all progresses.

I personally never saw fantastic chemistry with Weir and other cast members that some people saw - and I'm NOT talking about romantic stuff here, I mean general chemistry. I mean it was fine, but nothing to make me shout out about. And? whose opinion is right? Nobody's is. We all like what we like, see what we want and form our opinions on that. We all have different opinions on things, different likes and dislikes, and I'm amazed some people don't think it's ok to feel like that. Are we all meant to be clones? Why should we all like the same things? Or perceive things in the same way as others?

And, please, can we stop accusing people of being haters, or bringing in shipping preferences when they post their views and explanations of those views? Everyone is entitled to say what they like as long as they are respectful and stay within forum rules. Just because the general 'you' don't agree with what's said, don't start throwing round accusations of 'Well, you would say that, you're a...*inserts description*' Frankly that sort of intolerance and inflammatory posting causes so much trouble on this forum, and has others having no choice but to either report the post, or respond in kind.

doylefan22
December 9th, 2007, 02:35 AM
I agree. It's all subjective, isn't it? I think Carter has great chemistry with McKay, Sheppard, Keller and Ronon so far - some others don't. So? Big deal. Others are entitled not to see that, I think.

I'm hard pushed to call it great chemistry because of her limited time so far but I think she's fitted in fairly seamlessly and hasn't been too forced in which is a blessing.

Torri/Weir did admittedly have great chemistry with the others imo but she did have three years to cultivate that. I'm particularly fond of the chemistry between her and Rodney who she has mostly been gentle and understanding to, knowing exactly how to deal with him and seemingly seeing beyond his surface personality. My biggest worry was that Carter would somehow belittle Rodney (not because of being intentionally horrible to him or anything) and I'm glad that hasn't happened.

To be honest I think I prefer Carter keeping herself slightly separated from the rest of them as it probably should be like that with her as military leader. I'd like to see a deal of mutual respect but not necessarily best buddies.

JackHarkness_Hot
December 9th, 2007, 02:48 AM
Well, maybe if AT finally has time to portray Carter on Atlantis, she'll also find the time to put a little spark into her portrayal. So far, she seems to be putting forth a minimal effort.
No one can disagree with this fact. It's evident in all episodes she's been in as "leader".

If the Col Carter character was shown with more energy then she would have been okay but she hardly does anything, she stands around, mutters something then go off on one of her, "Oh this happen to the SGC, we did this", well, that's BOOOORRRRINGGGG! It's like Carter is dying in front of us, what happened to her energy, her essence, all gone when she entered the role as "Leader of the Expedition team".

She did more when she was on (4x02) Lifeline and that's before she was officially the leader. Don't say that ain't true, it's there, evident in all the episodes of Season 4 so far.

I say, jump into the deep end and do the job or don't do it at all. It's not like Carter is new to the Stargate story.

MechaThor
December 9th, 2007, 03:15 AM
I don't mind Carter in Atlantis and I like that shes not in it that much.

My main fear of her coming to Atlantis was that she would spoil the Mckay/Zelenka thing as the tech guys and maybe even spoil Sheppard/lorne as the military guys. But luckly that has not happened.

Yes maybe the "Back in the SGC" stuff is abit annoying, maybe it will become her catchphrase like Uncle Albert in Only Fools and Horses. But its a given since SG-1 has eatern most of the stories b4 anyways.

Carter may not have been in this ep. But was she needed? The replicators would not of made a version of her, However i am sure the blonde babe will return in the next ep.

Aussie_Fan
December 9th, 2007, 03:25 AM
I just don't like how she is being written. Her character's around when really she shouldn't be and then when she should be around we don't see her at all.

At least Weir got some descent screen time..

Integrabyte
December 9th, 2007, 03:31 AM
I just don't like how she is being written. Her character's around when really she shouldn't be and then when she should be around we don't see her at all.

At least Weir got some descent screen time..

To prove that even a very good character like Sam can suck on TV :p

ToasterOnFire
December 9th, 2007, 05:53 AM
she was sg1's commander in s8.
And then she lost that command to someone who's never been through a gate before. TPTB thought she wasn't good enough to lead in s9 and s10... :S

Killdeer
December 9th, 2007, 07:08 AM
You know, I've been thinking about this, and I think my whole problem is that everyone is being so freaking nice to each other. You know, people being nice is great in RL, but it's boring on TV. I liked Carter in the one episode where they had some tension introduced with Ronon. But since then everyone is on their best behavior. And I'm not talking about outside tension, like Woolsey. That doesn't count. Even Rodney is being uncommonly nice, and it just doesn't feel right.

Yes I miss Weir. Yes, I think she added something special to the group. But her not being there has nothing to do with my frustrations about Carter. They've always been two separate issues for me. I don't like the way Elizabeth's been treated. But my issues with Carter are a separate thing. I wouldn't have a problem with Carter if they would work harder on showing us an actual transition - if they would put in some tension, some confrontation. Show us some struggle with her taking over this new command. But instead, they've voted to skip all of that, and just have her just fill Elizabeth's place. They badly need to differentiate her from Elizabeth somehow. If she was actually doing something different, I don't think there would be so much issue with comparisons. But when she's doing the same things, saying the same things, even standing in the same position on the same balcony - good grief. They threw in a token confrontation with Ronon in Reunion (and BTW, as I've said before, I really liked Carter in Reunion), and then just skipped over all the rest.

One of the reasons the later seasons of SG-1 were more boring (IMO) than the earlier seasons is that they completely threw away the idea of any intrateam tension after Daniel returned. That's one reason I welcomed Vala so much - she shook things up, introduced some friction. Not as much as there could have been, but at least some.

I don't understand why the writers are so afraid to put other main characters in conflict with Carter. This happened on SG-1 too, and I didn't understand it. Are they that afraid that it's going to make her look bad? That doesn't speak well for confidence in the character. If they were bringing a character like Jack O'Neill over to run the place, you can bet they'd throw in a lot of tension and butting heads between him and Sheppard and him and Rodney. So why in the world not do the same with Carter? Why take the easy way out? The Carter/Shep bonding moments wouldn't bother me so much if they'd had to work to get there - if they'd earned them. But this instantanious harmony is not only unrealistic - it's boring. Annoyingly so.

As someone mentioned earlier, there was Teyla's dream where it was brought up that she was afraid Carter didn't trust her. Why not explore that? Why not have Carter have a few confrontations with Rodney or with Shep? And for heaven's sake, have the woman make a few mistakes along the way! This is her first command after all! Mistakes make a person more likable in my opinion, and they're certainly having Rodney make a ton of them this year. Why not spread the wealth a little?

There's a lot of things that they could do to make Carter's transition better. Instead, with Amanda being out so much in the first half, I'm afraid they've completely skipped the transitional phase (less the token confrontation with Ronon) and now will expect us to assume that everyone's completely adjusted. Well, no, I'm not adjusted. I want them to show us that.

You know, we talked and debated about this for months and months before the season actually aired. As I remember it, most people said they wanted a realistic integration - to show Carter having some struggles with the command, to not have everyone accept her all at once. Well, here we are, and what I'm seeing is what I feared. No, she's not taking over the show, but neither is her integration into the Atlantis crew being handled remotely believably. Instead, they're ignoring all the questions and all the tension points that they could be exploiting, in favor of showing Carter being perfectly accepted. It's S9 all over again, with them absolutely refusing to acknowledge the co-leadership issue and instead having Carter and Cam be bestest of friends.

I hope this isn't the end of it. I hope that going into the second half, they explore some more of these aspects. But my fear is that they will expect us to assume that this has all already happened (after all, it had already been three months in The Seer), and refuse to show it.

To quote Joe Flanigan, speaking of the relationship between Sheppard and Carter:


"Drama isn't interesting when people get along," he said. "It's interesting when they butt heads....When everybody just gets along, it could be a little dull. So we were trying to create some areas where we would have a little friction."

I agree completely - it's dull when people are just getting along. Here's hoping they succeeded, but so far it doesn't look promising.

All of the above is only my own opinions and perspectives on the subject in question.

Linzi
December 9th, 2007, 09:16 AM
You know, I've been thinking about this, and I think my whole problem is that everyone is being so freaking nice to each other. You know, people being nice is great in RL, but it's boring on TV. I liked Carter in the one episode where they had some tension introduced with Ronon. But since then everyone is on their best behavior. And I'm not talking about outside tension, like Woolsey. That doesn't count. Even Rodney is being uncommonly nice, and it just doesn't feel right.

Yes I miss Weir. Yes, I think she added something special to the group. But her not being there has nothing to do with my frustrations about Carter. They've always been two separate issues for me. I don't like the way Elizabeth's been treated. But my issues with Carter are a separate thing. I wouldn't have a problem with Carter if they would work harder on showing us an actual transition - if they would put in some tension, some confrontation. Show us some struggle with her taking over this new command. But instead, they've voted to skip all of that, and just have her just fill Elizabeth's place. They badly need to differentiate her from Elizabeth somehow. If she was actually doing something different, I don't think there would be so much issue with comparisons. But when she's doing the same things, saying the same things, even standing in the same position on the same balcony - good grief. They threw in a token confrontation with Ronon in Reunion (and BTW, as I've said before, I really liked Carter in Reunion), and then just skipped over all the rest.

One of the reasons the later seasons of SG-1 were more boring (IMO) than the earlier seasons is that they completely threw away the idea of any intrateam tension after Daniel returned. That's one reason I welcomed Vala so much - she shook things up, introduced some friction. Not as much as there could have been, but at least some.

I don't understand why the writers are so afraid to put other main characters in conflict with Carter. This happened on SG-1 too, and I didn't understand it. Are they that afraid that it's going to make her look bad? That doesn't speak well for confidence in the character. If they were bringing a character like Jack O'Neill over to run the place, you can bet they'd throw in a lot of tension and butting heads between him and Sheppard and him and Rodney. So why in the world not do the same with Carter? Why take the easy way out? The Carter/Shep bonding moments wouldn't bother me so much if they'd had to work to get there - if they'd earned them. But this instantanious harmony is not only unrealistic - it's boring. Annoyingly so.

As someone mentioned earlier, there was Teyla's dream where it was brought up that she was afraid Carter didn't trust her. Why not explore that? Why not have Carter have a few confrontations with Rodney or with Shep? And for heaven's sake, have the woman make a few mistakes along the way! This is her first command after all! Mistakes make a person more likable in my opinion, and they're certainly having Rodney make a ton of them this year. Why not spread the wealth a little?

There's a lot of things that they could do to make Carter's transition better. Instead, with Amanda being out so much in the first half, I'm afraid they've completely skipped the transitional phase (less the token confrontation with Ronon) and now will expect us to assume that everyone's completely adjusted. Well, no, I'm not adjusted. I want them to show us that.

You know, we talked and debated about this for months and months before the season actually aired. As I remember it, most people said they wanted a realistic integration - to show Carter having some struggles with the command, to not have everyone accept her all at once. Well, here we are, and what I'm seeing is what I feared. No, she's not taking over the show, but neither is her integration into the Atlantis crew being handled remotely believably. Instead, they're ignoring all the questions and all the tension points that they could be exploiting, in favor of showing Carter being perfectly accepted. It's S9 all over again, with them absolutely refusing to acknowledge the co-leadership issue and instead having Carter and Cam be bestest of friends.

I hope this isn't the end of it. I hope that going into the second half, they explore some more of these aspects. But my fear is that they will expect us to assume that this has all already happened (after all, it had already been three months in The Seer), and refuse to show it.

To quote Joe Flanigan, speaking of the relationship between Sheppard and Carter:



I agree completely - it's dull when people are just getting along. Here's hoping they succeeded, but so far it doesn't look promising.

All of the above is only my own opinions and perspectives on the subject in question.
I know exactly what you're saying here. I like a little discomfort between characters too. I think the problem is two-fold. Firstly AT's time has been limited on the show because of existing work committments. This invariably means Carter couldn't be on the show much whilst the SG1 movies were filming.

Secondly. Poor PTB. Whatever they do people will moan. Put Carter in too much, make her too assertive, too confrontational, then some fans would be really unhappy, and we'd get 'She's taking over the show, and upsetting character X! I hate her for that, how dare she!'

Conversely, have her treading gently, as Carter has done, have her understanding the shoes she's filling, having a relaxed command style and deferring to the experts as she's done, and she's not 'doing' enough. She's not putting her stamp on the series and she's not showing her skills.

How to please everyone? Simply, you can't. I also have to ask, how often did we see conflict between the old leader, Weir and the other principle characters? With Sheppard in season 1, Rising, Hot Zone, and Conversion when we had buggy Shep. With McKay in Trinity. Never with Teyla or Ronon that I remember. Possibly there are odd moments I'm forgetting, but nothing else stands out for me here. So, I can't see there's been much conflict between them really, not in a whole three seasons.

Now, I hope that the second half of the season will show Carter a little more involved in the events on screen. But, I think JM and PM were very aware that some fans were concerned Carter would dominate the show, and have always made it very clear that wasn't going to be the case. And, so far, they have kept to their word. Carter is in a more supporting role.

I'm hopeful that soon we'll see Carter show more of her leadership skills and make her mark more on the show. Though, I have to say, I've been really pleased so far. The Seer really made me see her in a leadership role, in control of the situation and indeed making her mark on the show as far as I'm concerned. But, I'd now like to see more.

As for the conflict? I just don't see her Carter actively having conflict for any amount of time with the characters on the show. If she had been having serious disagreements with Shep, McKay et al in the few episodes she'd been in so far, (6 to date), then I think it would have made her unpopular with many fans. In real life, when we go into a new job, we try to befriend people and work with them in a positive manner before we get to know them well enough to perhaps throw our authority around too much. It's about working alongside people and guiding them, and I think Carter has achieved that so far.

I think there have been moments of discomfort. When Sheppard asked to find Weir in Reunion, when McKay didn't want to go off world in DG, with Ronon in Reunion too. There were glimpses of disagreement there, and for me those were the right levels for the time. I would like to see more, but to be honest, I wouldn't want too much. I like that the characters trust each other's judgement and respect each other. I like they can work side by side.

Carter is treading gently, but I have no doubt she'll have to put her foot down with some characters soon.

Those are my thoughts on the situation so far. :)

jelgate
December 9th, 2007, 09:26 AM
I know exactly what you're saying here. I like a little discomfort between characters too. I think the problem is two-fold. Firstly AT's time has been limited on the show because of existing work committments. This invariably means Carter couldn't be on the show much whilst the SG1 movies were filming.Secondly. Poor PTB. Whatever they do people will moan. Put Carter in too much, make her too assertive, too confrontational, then some fans would be really unhappy, and we'd get 'She's taking over the show, and upsetting character X! I hate her for that, how dare she!'Conversely, have her treading gently, as Carter has done, have her understanding the shoes she's filling, having a relaxed command style and deferring to the experts as she's done, and she's not 'doing' enough. She's not putting her stamp on the series and she's not showing her skills.How to please everyone? Simply, you can't.?* I also have to ask, how often did we see conflict between the old leader, Weir and the other principle characters? With Sheppard in season 1, Rising, Hot Zone, and Conversion when we had buggy Shep. With McKay in Trinity. Never with Teyla or Ronon that I remember. Possibly there are odd moments I'm forgetting, but nothing else stands out for me here. So, I can't see there's been much conflict between them really, not in a whole three seasons.Now, I hope that the second half of the season will show Carter a little more involved in the events on screen. But, I think JM and PM were very aware that some fans were concerned Carter would dominate the show, and have always made it very clear that wasn't going to be the case. And, so far, they have kept to their word. Carter is in a more supporting role.I'm hopeful that soon we'll see Carter show more of her leadership skills and make her mark more on the show. Though, I have to say, I've been really pleased so far. The Seer really made me see her in a leadership role, in control of the situation and indeed making her mark on the show as far as I'm concerned. But, I'd now like to see more.As for the conflict? I just don't see her Carter actively having conflict for any amount of time with the characters on the show. If she had been having serious disagreements with Shep, McKay et al in the few episodes she'd been in so far, (6 to date),?* then I think it would have made her unpopular with many fans. In real life, when we go into a new job, we try to befriend people and work with them in a positive manner before we get to know them well enough to perhaps throw our authority around too much. It's about working alongside people and guiding them, and I think Carter has achieved that so far. I think there have been moments of discomfort. When Sheppard asked to find Weir in Reunion, when McKay didn't want to go off world in DG, with Ronon in Reunion too. There were glimpses of disagreement there, and for me those were the right levels for the time. I would like to see more, but to be honest, I wouldn't want too much. I like that the characters trust each other's judgement and respect each other. I like they can work side by side. Carter is treading gently, but I have no doubt she'll have to put her foot down with some characters soon. Those are my thoughts on the situation so far. :)Well said Linzi. Apparently Peg hasn't corrupted you too much. I am personally pleased with what has happened with Carter. She acts like Hammond when he was in charge of SGC.No getting in the way of the team and having to make the tough decisions

Killdeer
December 9th, 2007, 09:37 AM
Well said Linzi. Apparently Peg hasn't corrupted you too much. I am personally pleased with what has happened with Carter. She acts like Hammond when he was in charge of SGC.No getting in the way of the team and having to make the tough decisions

Actually, no not really. Hammond and Jack butted heads quite a bit, especially in the early days. Hammond and Daniel didn't exactly get along very well in the beginning either. And Teal'c and Sam had to prove themselves to him at first too. The relationship between SG-1 and Hammond was a growing process, and even up until the end, they never hesitated to show Jack crossing lines and Hammond slapping him down.

That's my point. They grew the relationship naturally there. Here, they're just assuming it, not earning it.

Southern Red
December 9th, 2007, 10:28 AM
I think chemistry is like pornography. You can't really define it, but you dang sure know it when you see it. :lol:

Actors are frequently put in situations, romantic or otherwise, where they have to relate to and interact with other actors sometimes on a very intimate level. If the audience believes the resulting scene is believable and that the emotions portrayed by the characters are real, they consider the actors to have chemistry.

From the first moment I saw Torri Higginson interact with the rest of the cast, I saw that chemistry. Rodney, Daniel, Carson, Jack, Peter, John, even Sumner in the pilot and then later in the series Teyla, Ford, Ronon etc. She seemed to genuinely care about each and every one of them and they her. In the pilot everyone ran around trying to show her things and in later episodes her authority was accepted without question most of the time. The little bit of conflict with Sheppard before they found a commonality was just spicy enough to make things interesting. That is sorely missing with Carter. I won't even speak about the romantic angle with her and John because everyone knows how I feel about that, but that chemistry is there without a word being spoken.

I always liked Carter in SG-l but whoever this blonde woman is who seems unsure of herself and sadly out of place is not that Carter. More and more it seems like Sheppard and Rodney are running things and doing a fine job of it IMHO. And speaking of chemistry, JF and DH have it as did both those men and PM. It's an ease of working together, a generosity that comes across on the screen. It can't be developed and it can't be faked. It just is the subjective opinion of the viewer.

Now the test for TPTB is if they can decide that they see what some of us see.

ToasterOnFire
December 9th, 2007, 10:34 AM
You know, I've been thinking about this, and I think my whole problem is that everyone is being so freaking nice to each other. You know, people being nice is great in RL, but it's boring on TV. I liked Carter in the one episode where they had some tension introduced with Ronon. But since then everyone is on their best behavior. And I'm not talking about outside tension, like Woolsey. That doesn't count. Even Rodney is being uncommonly nice, and it just doesn't feel right.
TPTB skirt away from writing conflict. Mitchell took over as leader of SG1 in s9 and no one on the team batted an eye, even Carter. The same thing happened with Carter and Atlantis. Everyone gets along and in the rare times that they don't it's forgotten about when the ep ends.

Ripple in Space
December 9th, 2007, 10:39 AM
That's not a problem. That's exactly how it works. The one with the most experience and knowledge is the one that stays back and calls the shots.

In some cases, but when Rodney's faced with two options:

:mckay::Let me call up Sam, and ask her if she can help me with this computer problem.

or

:mckay:: Let me feed myself to this Wraith.

And he chooses the latter as more preferential, then tptb have a problem.

marielabbott
December 9th, 2007, 10:42 AM
I think chemistry is like pornography. You can't really define it, but you dang sure know it when you see it. :lol:

I thought of that quote too! :)

Yes, chemistry is something that is usually undefinable, and subjective. But if you read film reviews, you often have professional reviewers speaking about the chemistry of lack of it between characters/actors, and it's a valid point for them to bring up, because it affects their enjoyment of the film, or their assessment of it's quality. And they disagree and argue about it as well.

I'm not a shipper, but I do think Weir had a much better chemistry with the rest of the characters. And it does affect my enjoyment of the show.

Integrabyte
December 9th, 2007, 11:06 AM
In some cases, but when Rodney's faced with two options:

:mckay::Let me call up Sam, and ask her if she can help me with this computer problem.

or

:mckay:: Let me feed myself to this Wraith.

And he chooses the latter as more preferential, then tptb have a problem.


Putting it that way I am surprised we will have S5 :D

Ripple in Space
December 9th, 2007, 11:54 AM
Putting it that way I am surprised we will have S5 :D

Lol. Actually I thought the last episode, "This Mortal Coil," as far as writing goes, was by far the best of the entire series! So it is improving.

As a Carter fan, I just hate the direction they've taken with her character. We don't see her using her scientific OR military expertise. Even though she's the best at both on the base. And outside of Jack & Hammond, she's the best at both out of the Tau'ri.

It's kind of like Jerry Seinfeld's joke about Superman and the Justice League. Back in Seinfeld's day, Superman wasn't only super-strong, but he was also super-smart and could time-travel at will, and had telekinetic powers. So why did he need the Justice League?

It's the same situation with Carter and the Expedition. In Sg-1 she wasn't the best at everything...
SG-1
:sam: - #1 Scientist, #2 Military Officer, #3 Warrior
:jack: - #1 Military Officer, #2 Warrior
:daniel: - #1 Anthropologist/Archaeologist, #1 Ambassador
:tealc: - #1 Warrior
:hammond: - #1 Military Commander

Atlantis
:sam: - #1 Scientist (by McKay's own words), #1 Military Officer, #1 Military Commander (just ask HWS & the IOA), #1 Offworld Experience (been on far more worlds and more diverse tech levels), #1 Alien Kill-Count ("Exodus" + 10+ years of Combat)
:sheppard: - #2 Military Officer
:mckay: - #2 Scientist (by his own admission)
:teyla: - #2 Offworld Experience
:ronan: - #2 Alien Kill-Count

And tptb way of dealing with it is not mentioning her at all in times of crisis. How can she develop chemistry with the team if she's always invisible when they're in a tight spot?

Linzi
December 9th, 2007, 11:59 AM
I think chemistry is like pornography. You can't really define it, but you dang sure know it when you see it. :lol:


You little minx! :eek: :o :lol: I've never seen pornography, so I have no idea what you're talking about! ;) Yeah, right!


Actors are frequently put in situations, romantic or otherwise, where they have to relate to and interact with other actors sometimes on a very intimate level. If the audience believes the resulting scene is believable and that the emotions portrayed by the characters are real, they consider the actors to have chemistry.

I think you're right there. But, I do think it's very much based on our own personal likes and dislikes, if that makes sense? Sometimes we connect with an actor portraying a character, and sometimes we don't.




From the first moment I saw Torri Higginson interact with the rest of the cast, I saw that chemistry. Rodney, Daniel, Carson, Jack, Peter, John, even Sumner in the pilot and then later in the series Teyla, Ford, Ronon etc. She seemed to genuinely care about each and every one of them and they her. In the pilot everyone ran around trying to show her things and in later episodes her authority was accepted without question most of the time. The little bit of conflict with Sheppard before they found a commonality was just spicy enough to make things interesting. That is sorely missing with Carter. I won't even speak about the romantic angle with her and John because everyone knows how I feel about that, but that chemistry is there without a word being spoken.

I don't disagree that Weir has showed much caring to the characters. I think she has, and this is one of the things that I have always like about her. I think, with Carter, she just doesn't know them all well enough yet for us to see that. Let's not forget, Weir et al were stranded, isolated and fighting for their lives in season 1. They became bonded very quickly out of necessity. In season 4 the situation is a little different.




I always liked Carter in SG-l but whoever this blonde woman is who seems unsure of herself and sadly out of place is not that Carter. More and more it seems like Sheppard and Rodney are running things and doing a fine job of it IMHO. And speaking of chemistry, JF and DH have it as did both those men and PM. It's an ease of working together, a generosity that comes across on the screen. It can't be developed and it can't be faked. It just is the subjective opinion of the viewer.

Now the test for TPTB is if they can decide that they see what some of us see.

I personally believe Joe and David to have the best chemistry on the show. I always have, and to be frank, all other chemistries pale into insignificance in comparison, IMO. Both actors have that indefinable charisma that you're born with, I think. It will be interesting to see what happens in the latter half of season 4 as far as chemistry goes. I, for one, am looking forward to seeing how it all pans out. :)

Agent_Dark
December 9th, 2007, 12:07 PM
Atlantis
:sam: - #1 Alien Kill-Count ("Exodus" + 10+ years of Combat)
top1 kdr no doubt ftw

Ripple in Space
December 9th, 2007, 12:10 PM
top1 kdr no doubt ftw

I have no idea what you're saying.

Cautious Explorer
December 9th, 2007, 12:13 PM
Lol. Actually I thought the last episode, "This Mortal Coil," as far as writing goes, was by far the best of the entire series! So it is improving.

As a Carter fan, I just hate the direction they've taken with her character. We don't see her using her scientific OR military expertise. Even though she's the best at both on the base. And outside of Jack & Hammond, she's the best at both out of the Tau'ri.

It's kind of like Jerry Seinfeld's joke about Superman and the Justice League. Back in Seinfeld's day, Superman wasn't only super-strong, but he was also super-smart and could time-travel at will, and had telekinetic powers. So why did he need the Justice League?

It's the same situation with Carter and the Expedition. In Sg-1 she wasn't the best at everything...
SG-1
:sam: - #1 Scientist, #2 Military Officer, #3 Warrior
:jack: - #1 Military Officer, #2 Warrior
:daniel: - #1 Anthropologist/Archaeologist, #1 Ambassador
:tealc: - #1 Warrior
:hammond: - #1 Military Commander

Atlantis
:sam: - #1 Scientist (by McKay's own words), #1 Military Officer, #1 Military Commander (just ask HWS & the IOA), #1 Offworld Experience (been on far more worlds and more diverse tech levels), #1 Alien Kill-Count ("Exodus" + 10+ years of Combat)
:sheppard: - #2 Military Officer
:mckay: - #2 Scientist (by his own admission)
:teyla: - #2 Offworld Experience
:ronan: - #2 Alien Kill-Count

And tptb way of dealing with it is not mentioning her at all in times of crisis. How can she develop chemistry with the team if she's always invisible when they're in a tight spot?

You've just presented an excellent case for why Carter doesn't belong on Atlantis in the first place.

Agent_Dark
December 9th, 2007, 12:45 PM
You've just presented an excellent case for why Carter doesn't belong on Atlantis in the first place.

dude, top1 kdr means shes the obvious and really the only choice. top1 kdr means shes definitely up the top of the scoreboard, most likely top1 score (unless some noob is spamming med-packs/revives). top1 kdr means she doesn't need to do a 'hacks above/noobs below' call since there is no-one above her. she simply releases a 'noobs below' call.

top1 is ftw.

sueKay
December 9th, 2007, 12:53 PM
Hmm...so Carter is apparently top at everything...that screams of mary-suism and bad writing

pity she ain't number 1 in the personality stakes...

Ripple in Space
December 9th, 2007, 12:53 PM
dude, top1 kdr means shes the obvious and really the only choice. top1 kdr means shes definitely up the top of the scoreboard, most likely top1 score (unless some noob is spamming med-packs/revives). top1 kdr means she doesn't need to do a 'hacks above/noobs below' call since there is no-one above her. she simply releases a 'noobs below' call.

top1 is ftw.

huh?

prion
December 9th, 2007, 01:10 PM
I wish I could think of a way to say what I want to say about this that wouldn't get me banned.

I've seen a lot of people talking about TH's "chemistry" the last 2 days but I just don't see it. I don't even see "decent." All I've ever seen is a drama queen.

I think rules say you're not supposed to diss the actors. You can gripe about the characters, but not slur the actors.


I'm hard pushed to call it great chemistry because of her limited time so far but I think she's fitted in fairly seamlessly and hasn't been too forced in which is a blessing.

Torri/Weir did admittedly have great chemistry with the others imo but she did have three years to cultivate that. I'm particularly fond of the chemistry between her and Rodney who she has mostly been gentle and understanding to, knowing exactly how to deal with him and seemingly seeing beyond his surface personality. My biggest worry was that Carter would somehow belittle Rodney (not because of being intentionally horrible to him or anything) and I'm glad that hasn't happened.

To be honest I think I prefer Carter keeping herself slightly separated from the rest of them as it probably should be like that with her as military leader. I'd like to see a deal of mutual respect but not necessarily best buddies.

She basically has Hammond's position on Atlantis. You never saw Hammond and the sG1 team hanging around having a meal. When the team were hanging around at the end of Doppelganger, it seemed forced that Keller and Carter were suddenly hanging with them.



I don't understand why the writers are so afraid to put other main characters in conflict with Carter. This happened on SG-1 too, and I didn't understand it. Are they that afraid that it's going to make her look bad? That doesn't speak well for confidence in the character. If they were bringing a character like Jack O'Neill over to run the place, you can bet they'd throw in a lot of tension and butting heads between him and Sheppard and him and Rodney. So why in the world not do the same with Carter? Why take the easy way out? The Carter/Shep bonding moments wouldn't bother me so much if they'd had to work to get there - if they'd earned them. But this instantanious harmony is not only unrealistic - it's boring. Annoyingly so.
. [/B]

I don't understand it either. In reality people do not always get along, and now that she's in command, there are going to be situations where folks are going to butt heads. My feeling is that the writers are so enamored of Carter that they don't want to do wrong, and in turn, this fosters the "SuperSam" reputation that has bugged a number of fans. The closest we've come to 'butting heads' was Ronon leaving Atlantis and Carter making some noises about him leaving.

chocdoc
December 9th, 2007, 01:19 PM
I personally believe Joe and David to have the best chemistry on the show. I always have, and to be frank, all other chemistries pale into insignificance in comparison, IMO. Both actors have that indefinable charisma that you're born with, I think. It will be interesting to see what happens in the latter half of season 4 as far as chemistry goes. I, for one, am looking forward to seeing how it all pans out. :)


I actually would go with DH and AT on the chemistry. I think they have had great chemistry since SG-1 and I'm hoping to see this chemistry used in the second half of season 4. As far as JF and DH, I'd say there is chemistry there, but I'm not wowed by it. If I had been, I'd really love SGA because there is so much of Shep/Mckay, but it actually bored me at times.

bluealien
December 9th, 2007, 01:21 PM
As others have said chemistry can be totally subjective and one fan can see loads of chemistry between characters while another sees none.

I think Sheppard has "chemistry" will all of the characters and I wouldn't say that one is hugely better than the other, just different. Some fans relate better to different pairings and to what these different pairings bring out in the characters. McKaySheppard brings out more of the mischevious side to Shep, whilst the Ronan/Sheppard brings out more of the competitive/soldier side, Sheppard/Teyla brings more of Sheps emotional side and Sheppard/Weir more of a protective side. They are all just different and each one brings out interesting sides to the characters, and some fans just naturally get drawn to one pairing more than another, and therefore feel this paring has the best chemistry.

Weir has had 3 years to get to know the team and bond with them so there will be a familiarity and closness that has grown over the course of time. I would never say that this was instantaneous. Sheppard/Weir were quite distrustful of one another in the first few eps and even in Rising Shep didn't seem willing to follow Weir's orders at all but over time they definitely came to respect each other eventhough they disagreed on issues with regard to Atlantis. Weir probably knew Rodney the longest and wasn't phased by his abrasive nature and I felt they had the best understanding of who they both really were. There was no light bantering that we saw more often between Shep/Weir but deeper emotional moments and this is why I think Rodney was hit the most by her death.
But people do take time to get to know one another and yes there can be an instant chemistry or a knowing that you like and respect this person but boundaries still have to be set and this takes time. Carter has only had a tiny amount of time to interact with the team so there is no way we can say that she can build up in a few weeks what Weir built up in 3 years. But even though she is still finding her feet in her new position, and with Sheppard and the team, I do feel that that instant respect is there already and Sheppard feels possibly more at ease with her because they both share a military background. His relationship with Carter again is just different but they do have that instant rapport IMO and they seem to fit very well into the kind of leadership that Atltantis needs at the present time.

In time I think Carter will build up a great relationship with all the team. It may be different to how Weir interacted with them but that doesn't mean it will be any less meaningful.

chocdoc
December 9th, 2007, 01:31 PM
She basically has Hammond's position on Atlantis. You never saw Hammond and the sG1 team hanging around having a meal. When the team were hanging around at the end of Doppelganger, it seemed forced that Keller and Carter were suddenly hanging with them.



I don't understand it either. In reality people do not always get along, and now that she's in command, there are going to be situations where folks are going to butt heads. My feeling is that the writers are so enamored of Carter that they don't want to do wrong, and in turn, this fosters the "SuperSam" reputation that has bugged a number of fans. The closest we've come to 'butting heads' was Ronon leaving Atlantis and Carter making some noises about him leaving.

I don't think Sam is like Hammond though. Her style is going to be different and it should be. I like the fact that she hung out with them for a bit, even though typically she does not.

As far as conflict -- well Sam has been in the show as the leader for four episodes only. In one of those, Reunion, she definitely had conflict with Ronon, and I thought it was done well. Tabula Rasa -- they weren't themselves, so no opportunity there. The Seer--- she was pretty busy confronting Woolsey in this one. When you have an outside threat, then it is natural for Atlantis personnel to team up -- hence, Shep backed Carter up. Good for him -- that is what he should have done -- and good thing he did, because Carter's gut was correct. Dopplehanger -- I'm not sure there was much room for disagreement there either, given that once again members of Atlantis were threatened by an outside force.

So, let's wait and see. Maybe there will be some conflict. I personally don't care if there is or not. I suspect we will see some conflict between Mckay and Carter down the road.

Xicer
December 9th, 2007, 03:18 PM
huh?

KDR = Kill/Death Ratio. lol in online FPS's (first person shooter games) you kdr is the ratio of how many times you kill someone over how many times you die. I'm gonna take a guess and say that he's making a Battlefield 2 reference given the "spamming med-packs/revives" comment. :p He's basically just saying Sam is best for the job because shes killed the most aliens.

PG15
December 9th, 2007, 03:24 PM
No one can disagree with this fact. It's evident in all episodes she's been in as "leader".



Yeah, I'll disagree with that fact opinion, thank you very much. I loved Carter in The Seer, and liked a myriad of moments in the episodes that proceeded that.

Agent_Dark
December 9th, 2007, 03:51 PM
KDR = Kill/Death Ratio. lol in online FPS's (first person shooter games) you kdr is the ratio of how many times you kill someone over how many times you die. I'm gonna take a guess and say that he's making a Battlefield 2 reference given the "spamming med-packs/revives" comment. :p He's basically just saying Sam is best for the job because shes killed the most aliens.

this man knows the drill.

jckfan55
December 9th, 2007, 03:52 PM
i agree.. that weir-shepperd have a really good chemistry.. something that carter-shepperd still don't have.. because carter in atlantis isn't even carter.. just an image like someone mention.. we all see her as a strong military/scientist woman who loved to shoot at the enemy, blow up a sun, play with time, and many other crazy things.. but in atlantis.. all we see so far is you have the go..
Maybe they're being so careful not to force Sam on the Weir fans that they haven't let Sam be Sam as much as many of us would like to see. I'm hoping to see more of the kind of things you say in future episodes. The Seer gave us some glimpses

Aussie_Fan
December 9th, 2007, 05:08 PM
You know, I've been thinking about this, and I think my whole problem is that everyone is being so freaking nice to each other. You know, people being nice is great in RL, but it's boring on TV. I liked Carter in the one episode where they had some tension introduced with Ronon. But since then everyone is on their best behavior. And I'm not talking about outside tension, like Woolsey. That doesn't count. Even Rodney is being uncommonly nice, and it just doesn't feel right.

Yes I miss Weir. Yes, I think she added something special to the group. But her not being there has nothing to do with my frustrations about Carter. They've always been two separate issues for me. I don't like the way Elizabeth's been treated. But my issues with Carter are a separate thing. I wouldn't have a problem with Carter if they would work harder on showing us an actual transition - if they would put in some tension, some confrontation. Show us some struggle with her taking over this new command. But instead, they've voted to skip all of that, and just have her just fill Elizabeth's place. They badly need to differentiate her from Elizabeth somehow. If she was actually doing something different, I don't think there would be so much issue with comparisons. But when she's doing the same things, saying the same things, even standing in the same position on the same balcony - good grief. They threw in a token confrontation with Ronon in Reunion (and BTW, as I've said before, I really liked Carter in Reunion), and then just skipped over all the rest.

One of the reasons the later seasons of SG-1 were more boring (IMO) than the earlier seasons is that they completely threw away the idea of any intrateam tension after Daniel returned. That's one reason I welcomed Vala so much - she shook things up, introduced some friction. Not as much as there could have been, but at least some.

I don't understand why the writers are so afraid to put other main characters in conflict with Carter. This happened on SG-1 too, and I didn't understand it. Are they that afraid that it's going to make her look bad? That doesn't speak well for confidence in the character. If they were bringing a character like Jack O'Neill over to run the place, you can bet they'd throw in a lot of tension and butting heads between him and Sheppard and him and Rodney. So why in the world not do the same with Carter? Why take the easy way out? The Carter/Shep bonding moments wouldn't bother me so much if they'd had to work to get there - if they'd earned them. But this instantanious harmony is not only unrealistic - it's boring. Annoyingly so.

As someone mentioned earlier, there was Teyla's dream where it was brought up that she was afraid Carter didn't trust her. Why not explore that? Why not have Carter have a few confrontations with Rodney or with Shep? And for heaven's sake, have the woman make a few mistakes along the way! This is her first command after all! Mistakes make a person more likable in my opinion, and they're certainly having Rodney make a ton of them this year. Why not spread the wealth a little?

There's a lot of things that they could do to make Carter's transition better. Instead, with Amanda being out so much in the first half, I'm afraid they've completely skipped the transitional phase (less the token confrontation with Ronon) and now will expect us to assume that everyone's completely adjusted. Well, no, I'm not adjusted. I want them to show us that.

You know, we talked and debated about this for months and months before the season actually aired. As I remember it, most people said they wanted a realistic integration - to show Carter having some struggles with the command, to not have everyone accept her all at once. Well, here we are, and what I'm seeing is what I feared. No, she's not taking over the show, but neither is her integration into the Atlantis crew being handled remotely believably. Instead, they're ignoring all the questions and all the tension points that they could be exploiting, in favor of showing Carter being perfectly accepted. It's S9 all over again, with them absolutely refusing to acknowledge the co-leadership issue and instead having Carter and Cam be bestest of friends.

I hope this isn't the end of it. I hope that going into the second half, they explore some more of these aspects. But my fear is that they will expect us to assume that this has all already happened (after all, it had already been three months in The Seer), and refuse to show it.

To quote Joe Flanigan, speaking of the relationship between Sheppard and Carter:



I agree completely - it's dull when people are just getting along. Here's hoping they succeeded, but so far it doesn't look promising.

All of the above is only my own opinions and perspectives on the subject in question.

I think you've hit the nail on the head for me. I've been trying to figure out why Atlantis has been bugging me lately and I think this is it.

The writers are afraid of doing anything with the characters. So this inturn, makes everyone get a long like one big happy family. Not that there's a problem with this BUT every family has it's arguements and certain people who don't really get a long with others.

Ronons reaction to Carter was really great! (Though to me it seemed a bit strange 'cause Weir and Ronon never really had much time together..) I think it would have been great if EVERYONE acted that way to begin. Not necessarily as in-your-face about it. Everyone grieves differently and it would have been nice to see some of it.


Maybe they're being so careful not to force Sam on the Weir fans that they haven't let Sam be Sam as much as many of us would like to see. I'm hoping to see more of the kind of things you say in future episodes. The Seer gave us some glimpses

I'm a huge, huge Weir fan and yes, obviously I'm upset she's gone.. but in saying that if they're going to replace Weir, I want them to REPLACE her. Not slowly interaduce the new character. It kinda just drags things out and personally, I want the show to be moving forwards. Not stuck trying to get everyone use to Carter. She's there so she might as well be there.

Mitchell82
December 9th, 2007, 06:21 PM
Sam has great chemistry with the team and IMHO way better than Weir.

jz9
December 9th, 2007, 07:54 PM
As others have said chemistry can be totally subjective and one fan can see loads of chemistry between characters while another sees none.

I think Sheppard has "chemistry" will all of the characters and I wouldn't say that one is hugely better than the other, just different. Some fans relate better to different pairings and to what these different pairings bring out in the characters. McKaySheppard brings out more of the mischevious side to Shep, whilst the Ronan/Sheppard brings out more of the competitive/soldier side, Sheppard/Teyla brings more of Sheps emotional side and Sheppard/Weir more of a protective side. They are all just different and each one brings out interesting sides to the characters, and some fans just naturally get drawn to one pairing more than another, and therefore feel this paring has the best chemistry.

Weir has had 3 years to get to know the team and bond with them so there will be a familiarity and closness that has grown over the course of time. I would never say that this was instantaneous. Sheppard/Weir were quite distrustful of one another in the first few eps and even in Rising Shep didn't seem willing to follow Weir's orders at all but over time they definitely came to respect each other eventhough they disagreed on issues with regard to Atlantis. Weir probably knew Rodney the longest and wasn't phased by his abrasive nature and I felt they had the best understanding of who they both really were. There was no light bantering that we saw more often between Shep/Weir but deeper emotional moments and this is why I think Rodney was hit the most by her death.
But people do take time to get to know one another and yes there can be an instant chemistry or a knowing that you like and respect this person but boundaries still have to be set and this takes time. Carter has only had a tiny amount of time to interact with the team so there is no way we can say that she can build up in a few weeks what Weir built up in 3 years. But even though she is still finding her feet in her new position, and with Sheppard and the team, I do feel that that instant respect is there already and Sheppard feels possibly more at ease with her because they both share a military background. His relationship with Carter again is just different but they do have that instant rapport IMO and they seem to fit very well into the kind of leadership that Atltantis needs at the present time.

In time I think Carter will build up a great relationship with all the team. It may be different to how Weir interacted with them but that doesn't mean it will be any less meaningful.


Well said.

Ripple in Space
December 9th, 2007, 11:14 PM
Hmm...so Carter is apparently top at everything...that screams of mary-suism and bad writing

pity she ain't number 1 in the personality stakes...

I think this is the most biased comment I've ever read within this forum from someone who's not just a complete moron.

Cautious Explorer
December 10th, 2007, 03:00 AM
I think this is the most biased comment I've ever read within this forum from someone who's not just a complete moron.

I was going to respond that I thought the poster who compared Carter to Superman and believed she was better at everything than anyone else in Atlantis might be a little biased too, but then I realized something.....it was you:



It's kind of like Jerry Seinfeld's joke about Superman and the Justice League. Back in Seinfeld's day, Superman wasn't only super-strong, but he was also super-smart and could time-travel at will, and had telekinetic powers. So why did he need the Justice League?

It's the same situation with Carter and the Expedition. In Sg-1 she wasn't the best at everything...
SG-1
:sam: - #1 Scientist, #2 Military Officer, #3 Warrior
:jack: - #1 Military Officer, #2 Warrior
:daniel: - #1 Anthropologist/Archaeologist, #1 Ambassador
:tealc: - #1 Warrior
:hammond: - #1 Military Commander

Atlantis
:sam: - #1 Scientist (by McKay's own words), #1 Military Officer, #1 Military Commander (just ask HWS & the IOA), #1 Offworld Experience (been on far more worlds and more diverse tech levels), #1 Alien Kill-Count ("Exodus" + 10+ years of Combat)
:sheppard: - #2 Military Officer
:mckay: - #2 Scientist (by his own admission)
:teyla: - #2 Offworld Experience
:ronan: - #2 Alien Kill-Count

JSPuddlejumper
December 10th, 2007, 03:31 AM
It is too early to say yet. Carter has hardly appeared in any episodes.

Wait till the war with Replicators heat up before coming to a conclusion.

Ripple in Space
December 10th, 2007, 06:32 AM
I was going to respond that I thought the poster who compared Carter to Superman and believed she was better at everything than anyone else in Atlantis might be a little biased too, but then I realized something.....it was you:

I compared Carter to a Jerry Seinfeld joke about Superman from the 1970s... I don't see how my post is biased, especially since I preferred Weir's character's chemistry over Carter's on Atlantis :rolleyes:. And while my post didn't attack a single character, but laid out how it's been, I don't even see opinion playing a part in my post.

How do the IOA & Homeworld Security not consider Carter to be a more qualified military leader than Sheppard? They literally brought her in to lead the Expedition...

How does Rodney not think that he's smarter than Carter, but she's a better scientist? You might want to watch "Grace Under Pressure."

How has Carter not been on a larger technological diversity of worlds than Teyla? Before Teyla joined the Expedition the most advanced civilization she had contact with was the Genii. Carter's been on primitive worlds, and been to the Nox and Asgard worlds, among MANY other advanced societies.

Counting "Exodus" alone, how has Carter not killed more aliens than Ronon? Not to mention all of the others she's killed in 10 years.

:rolleyes:

Blower'sGate
December 10th, 2007, 09:29 AM
Carter's a good boss but Atlantis' season 1 was the best season SGA's ever had. Who was in charge? Yup, Weir. Guess it would make sense to have Weir back...


.... not that I'm a fan :P

Cautious Explorer
December 10th, 2007, 09:47 AM
I compared Carter to a Jerry Seinfeld joke about Superman from the 1970s... I don't see how my post is biased, especially since I preferred Weir's character's chemistry over Carter's on Atlantis :rolleyes:. And while my post didn't attack a single character, but laid out how it's been, I don't even see opinion playing a part in my post.

How do the IOA & Homeworld Security not consider Carter to be a more qualified military leader than Sheppard? They literally brought her in to lead the Expedition...

How does Rodney not think that he's smarter than Carter, but she's a better scientist? You might want to watch "Grace Under Pressure."

How has Carter not been on a larger technological diversity of worlds than Teyla? Before Teyla joined the Expedition the most advanced civilization she had contact with was the Genii. Carter's been on primitive worlds, and been to the Nox and Asgard worlds, among MANY other advanced societies.

Counting "Exodus" alone, how has Carter not killed more aliens than Ronon? Not to mention all of the others she's killed in 10 years.

:rolleyes:

Do you understand what "bias" means? You said you're a fan of Carter. You proceeded to explain that Carter was like Superman in the Seinfeld joke -- so superior to the others that they weren't even necessary. You then went on to describe how she was better than each individual on Atlantis, in your opinion. You are lamenting the fact that she is not used more in the series. And now you are trying to present the same argument again, that you believe Carter to be superior to the others. How is your post not biased?

Ripple in Space
December 10th, 2007, 10:45 AM
Do you understand what "bias" means? You said you're a fan of Carter. You proceeded to explain that Carter was like Superman in the Seinfeld joke -- so superior to the others that they weren't even necessary. You then went on to describe how she was better than each individual on Atlantis, in your opinion. You are lamenting the fact that she is not used more in the series. And now you are trying to present the same argument again, that you believe Carter to be superior to the others. How is your post not biased?

That list wasn't opinion :rolleyes: . I wasn't lamenting that she wasn't used more, I don't think that she can be to the extent that Weir or Hammond were, not with the current writing staff anyway. In fact I preferred Weir's chemistry in the cast by far. I made this thread, and Weir's superior chemistry is the basis of it. That list doesn't have room for opinion, they are facts that the characters have stated. Do you know what bias is?

Carter stated that she was promoted over John.

McKay stated that Carter reaps better scientific results than him because she's wiser (yet less intelligent).

Carter has been seen on the Nox & Asgard worlds, along with many others.

Carter was seen blowing up a star that crippled a Goa'uld fleet, killing at least many hundreds of, and more likely a few thousand Jaffa and Goa'uld. That's all in addition to all of the Jaffa we've seen Carter kill over 10 years. Ronon's kill count is nowhere near that high, nor has he ever claimed it to be.

Cautious Explorer
December 10th, 2007, 11:03 AM
That list wasn't opinion :rolleyes: . I wasn't lamenting that she wasn't used more, I don't think that she can be to the extent that Weir or Hammond were, not with the current writing staff anyway. In fact I preferred Weir's chemistry in the cast by far. I made this thread, and Weir's superior chemistry is the basis of it. That list doesn't have room for opinion, they are facts that the characters have stated. Do you know what bias is?

Carter stated that she was promoted over John.

McKay stated that Carter reaps better scientific results than him because she's wiser (yet less intelligent).

Carter has been seen on the Nox & Asgard worlds, along with many others.

Carter was seen blowing up a star that crippled a Goa'uld fleet, killing at least many hundreds of, and more likely a few thousand Jaffa and Goa'uld. That's all in addition to all of the Jaffa we've seen Carter kill over 10 years. Ronon's kill count is nowhere near that high, nor has he ever claimed it to be.

Wow. I totally missed the point of your post. I thought you were praising Carter by listing her accomplishments and stating she's the best at everything. Instead you were meaning what? I still don't get your point. Were you being sarcastic?

I'm not going to debate with you about what was said or done on SG-1. I haven't watched and I just don't care.

But you're list is just your opinion. You're not merely listing what Carter has or hasn't done. You're giving your opinion on how that makes her better in certain areas than other characters. That's always up for debate.

Skydiver
December 10th, 2007, 12:41 PM
Don't feed the trolls.

Ripple in Space
December 10th, 2007, 06:11 PM
Wow. I totally missed the point of your post. I thought you were praising Carter by listing her accomplishments and stating she's the best at everything. Instead you were meaning what? I still don't get your point. Were you being sarcastic?

I'm not going to debate with you about what was said or done on SG-1. I haven't watched and I just don't care.

But you're list is just your opinion. You're not merely listing what Carter has or hasn't done. You're giving your opinion on how that makes her better in certain areas than other characters. That's always up for debate.

If you read the opening post you would have understood my stance. I like Carter better than Weir, but I think that so far Carter has had poor chemistry/interaction with the cast. I think the problem is that she is more experienced than the major players on Atlantis.

Your posts don't hold any information whatsoever. I listed character statements. Unless you can present a single point... I'm done with this discussion.

Mister Oragahn
December 10th, 2007, 07:02 PM
If your not familiar with my stance on Carter leading the Expedition... I like Carter better than Weir in general, but I was hoping for Carter to be recurring, and not a star of Atlantis.

I don't think there's any denying at this point that Weir has much better chemistry with the Atlantis cast than Carter does. "This Mortal Coil" really made that abundantly clear.

Seconded. Totally seconded. But what do you want to see? The best thing that can happen, and that would be a far fetched resolution, would be to have Weir & co still alive, after miraculously surving the Asuran attack. It would be another plot hole, since there's no way they could survive there. But, oh well anyway, it's hard to come with something solid these days in Stargate.

jelgate
December 10th, 2007, 07:06 PM
Seconded. Totally seconded. But what do you want to see? The best thing that can happen, and that would be a far fetched resolution, would be to have Weir & co still alive, after miraculously surving the Asuran attack. It would be another plot hole, since there's no way they could survive there. But, oh well anyway, it's hard to come with something solid these days in Stargate.Do you even know what a plot hole is?

Uber
December 10th, 2007, 07:15 PM
Maybe they're being so careful not to force Sam on the Weir fans that they haven't let Sam be Sam as much as many of us would like to see. I'm hoping to see more of the kind of things you say in future episodes. The Seer gave us some glimpsesBy design she was a little unsure of herself, a little insecure, etc. Amanda played her that way because she felt it was the right tone for her and the show. I think The Seer was her personal gauntlet and from that she recognized that her team was behind her and trusted her instincts and abilities.

So my gut instinct is that the Carter of the second half will be more secure in her abilities and a little more outspoken.

Also...I asked Joe Mallozzi about Carter confrontations...and he said there was an episode in the second half where she'd dress someone down. I'm personally hoping it's Shep. They've had such a nice rapport going that I think it would be fantastic to see them hit a wall of sorts.Now how well that's done and to what extent is anyone's guess.

Phenix
December 10th, 2007, 07:22 PM
I honestly do not know how you all are comparing a character with 6 episodes on SGA with a character with 60+ episodes on the same show. Carter is new to the show and is just starting to assert herself in Atlantis.

Her role has also changed from SG-1. Carter is in command so of course the chemistry between her and Rodney is different. McKay can not go on and on about how Carter is a cute or dumb blonde when she is in command of the expedition. I don't doubt that the writers will take this low brow track at least once.

I don't know what you expect from Carter.

Cautious Explorer
December 10th, 2007, 07:26 PM
If you read the opening post you would have understood my stance. I like Carter better than Weir, but I think that so far Carter has had poor chemistry/interaction with the cast. I think the problem is that she is more experienced than the major players on Atlantis.

Your posts don't hold any information whatsoever. I listed character statements. Unless you can present a single point... I'm done with this discussion.

Ah. Now I understand. You weren't being at all facetious in comparing Carter with Superman. You think she's overqualified for Atlantis. She's smarter than Rodney, a better soldier than Sheppard, just better all around than everyone else. Well no wonder Carter doesn't have chemistry with those losers. I guess she better go back to her perfect team in her perfect wolrd at the SGC. I know that would make me happy. ;)

Phenix
December 10th, 2007, 07:27 PM
If you read the opening post you would have understood my stance. I like Carter better than Weir, but I think that so far Carter has had poor chemistry/interaction with the cast. I think the problem is that she is more experienced than the major players on Atlantis.

Your posts don't hold any information whatsoever. I listed character statements. Unless you can present a single point... I'm done with this discussion.

Would you prefer that the IOA bring in another lackey with no off world experience? That would allow McKay and Shepard to make more bad judgment calls with out any consequences. I think they made the right decision to bring in a character that has enough history and ability to take McKay and Shepard to task for making poor decisions.

I felt that that was a major flaw of Weir's character was that she would never 'dress down' any character. McKay and Shepard were untouchable. Its also allowed McKay to remain a very very static character.

Phenix
December 10th, 2007, 07:31 PM
Ah. Now I understand. You weren't being at all facetious in comparing Carter with Superman. You think she's overqualified for Atlantis. She's smarter than Rodney, a better soldier than Sheppard, just better all around than everyone else. Well no wonder Carter doesn't have chemistry with those losers. I guess she better go back to her perfect team in her perfect world at the SGC. I know that would make me happy. ;)

First off Carter is not part of the team! She is the leader of the expedition and as the leader she should have minimal off world experience. I personally do not want to see Carter leading the team in Shep's place. The benefit of having Carter's experience is that she can force responsibility on Shep and McKay because she has more experience than both of them.

Carter is just a more experienced soldier than Shep and a better scientist than McKay. That to me makes a good leader. And Carter is not someone who flaunts her smarts like McKay which will IMO force McKay to mature as a character.

Jill_Ion
December 10th, 2007, 07:33 PM
Seconded. Totally seconded. But what do you want to see? The best thing that can happen, and that would be a far fetched resolution, would be to have Weir & co still alive, after miraculously surving the Asuran attack. It would be another plot hole, since there's no way they could survive there. But, oh well anyway, it's hard to come with something solid these days in Stargate.

Actually, with the nanites in the DupliTeam's bodies, they could have survived and it wouldn't have been "miraculous."

Cautious Explorer
December 10th, 2007, 07:37 PM
First off Carter is not part of the team! She is the leader of the expedition and as the leader she should have minimal off world experience. I personally do not want to see Carter leading the team in Shep's place. The benefit of having Carter's experience is that she can force responsibility on Shep and McKay because she has more experience than both of them.

Carter is just a more experienced soldier than Shep and a better scientist than McKay. That to me makes a good leader. And Carter is not someone who flaunts her smarts like McKay which will IMO force McKay to mature as a character.

No, no, no. I don't want to see Carter on Sheppard's team either! That's the last thing I want to see. In a perfect world she would turn around and go back to the SGC.

I really don't care to see Carter "force" responsbility on Sheppard or McKay. They've managed to keep Atlantis alive for years without any assistance from Carter. I think they understand responsibility quite well.

Ripple in Space
December 10th, 2007, 08:51 PM
Seconded. Totally seconded. But what do you want to see? The best thing that can happen, and that would be a far fetched resolution, would be to have Weir & co still alive, after miraculously surving the Asuran attack. It would be another plot hole, since there's no way they could survive there. But, oh well anyway, it's hard to come with something solid these days in Stargate.

First of all Weir (in some form) will be back soon, it's been confirmed by tptb, Torri & Gateworld

Secondly, I wouldn't want RepliWeir anyway. It would just be weird, and a cop out. It would be like if the Moebius SG-1 supplanted the real ones. What I'd like is for Oberoth to have lied to Replica-Keller, and still have Weir alive, as a prisoner.

I just posted this in another thread, but I'll put an excerpt in here, I'd like Weir to return as the Leader of the base, but not as a star. I think it would be best if we got to see her around 12 eps. per season, in well thought out plots. I'd like Carter as recurring as well, working the science and the military aspects, in an advisory type role, rather than a delegating one. I honestly think that :sheppard::mckay::ronan::teyla: should be the only ones that are starring. The plot would move along a lot better without having to shoehorn in :sam::weir: into episodes where they don't belong. If Carter made 6-8 appearances next year as the more dynamic character that she used to be, I'd be thrilled. And if Weir was in over 10 as the sympathetic leader with street smarts, I'd be thrilled.

Mitchell82
December 10th, 2007, 09:03 PM
Seconded. Totally seconded. But what do you want to see? The best thing that can happen, and that would be a far fetched resolution, would be to have Weir & co still alive, after miraculously surving the Asuran attack. It would be another plot hole, since there's no way they could survive there. But, oh well anyway, it's hard to come with something solid these days in Stargate.

Best choice for you worst for me. That is so meh to me and Carter can run circles around weir and way mor qualified. Also Stargate has been rock solid this year.

Ripple in Space
December 10th, 2007, 09:03 PM
Would you prefer that the IOA bring in another lackey with no off world experience? That would allow McKay and Shepard to make more bad judgment calls with out any consequences. I think they made the right decision to bring in a character that has enough history and ability to take McKay and Shepard to task for making poor decisions.

I felt that that was a major flaw of Weir's character was that she would never 'dress down' any character. McKay and Shepard were untouchable. Its also allowed McKay to remain a very very static character.

I agree with a lot of what you said, but... I'm going to bring up an old point that I made last year, and then drop it: say you're General O'Neill assigning Carter. He considers her to be the best Tau'ri scientist & a darn good field operative. Why would he assign Carter to a job that involves so much delegation? Wouldn't he see that her talents would be better utilized if she was leading a science team either doing R&D on Lantean or Asgard tech, or leading a field unit with similar goals? Delegation is a waste of her time.

Now we've really derailed of the subject.

Phenix
December 10th, 2007, 09:34 PM
I agree with a lot of what you said, but... I'm going to bring up an old point that I made last year, and then drop it: say you're General O'Neill assigning Carter. He considers her to be the best Tau'ri scientist & a darn good field operative. Why would he assign Carter to a job that involves so much delegation? Wouldn't he see that her talents would be better utilized if she was leading a science team either doing R&D on Lantean or Asgard tech, or leading a field unit with similar goals? Delegation is a waste of her time.

Now we've really derailed of the subject.

Yea but that is what happens when a conversation breaks out in a thread. The topic was pretty much another anti-Carter love fest in the beginning.

Personally I think they could have created a new military/science officer to take control of Atlantis but that would have been an even greater risk. Carter has an established history in SG canon and Amanda Tapping is a known commodity. So in a producer role I think they made a logical choice in selecting Carter to cross over into a leadership role.

IMO, Carter is or at least should be running an R&D operation in Atlantis. I have to hope that they have science teams ready to explore Atlantis even if the viewers don't get to watch the dirty work. Carter is placed in a great position to direct research in areas of most importance. I'd prefer her to have a more active role in the R&D aspect but I have faith in that the Tau'ri are capable or producing excellent science minds.

While I was writing that I thought about the field operative angle. I don't know when Carter joined the SGC but she has to be pushing 35 in the SG universe. SG1 really pushed the age limit with O'Neil and I have a sneaking suspicion that Carter just might appreciate a break from daily or weekly life and death situations.

Avenger
December 10th, 2007, 11:58 PM
I agree with a lot of what you said, but... I'm going to bring up an old point that I made last year, and then drop it: say you're General O'Neill assigning Carter. He considers her to be the best Tau'ri scientist & a darn good field operative. Why would he assign Carter to a job that involves so much delegation? Wouldn't he see that her talents would be better utilized if she was leading a science team either doing R&D on Lantean or Asgard tech, or leading a field unit with similar goals? Delegation is a waste of her time.

Now we've really derailed of the subject.

Every good general in the military was once a field officer, but at some point, they have to move on because the military needs good generals to be administrators of the forces and resources under them. Sam is starting to hit that crossroad in her military career.

RealmOfX
December 11th, 2007, 12:52 AM
I agree with a lot of what you said, but... I'm going to bring up an old point that I made last year, and then drop it: say you're General O'Neill assigning Carter. He considers her to be the best Tau'ri scientist & a darn good field operative. Why would he assign Carter to a job that involves so much delegation? Wouldn't he see that her talents would be better utilized if she was leading a science team either doing R&D on Lantean or Asgard tech, or leading a field unit with similar goals? Delegation is a waste of her time.

Now we've really derailed of the subject.

You are forgetting that she is a career military officer and are focusing on her scientific genius here. What a general would do is look at her total experience and put her in a position where the air force gets to keep her for the maximum amount of time. Putting her in charge of the Atlantis expedition does that, what better place than an offworld expedition of military and scientists?

As for the so called chemistry between the characters I think some people are letting their biases get in the way. I think the way Sam interacts with the other characters is spot on for who she is and the position she is in. Oh, and BTW, I don't like Sam more than Weir - I like them both.


Every good general in the military was once a field officer, but at some point, they have to move on because the military needs good generals to be administrators of the forces and resources under them. Sam is starting to hit that crossroad in her military career.

Spot on. People keep ignoring the career military part of her and that aspect has very specific requirements.

prion
December 11th, 2007, 09:11 AM
You are forgetting that she is a career military officer and are focusing on her scientific genius here. What a general would do is look at her total experience and put her in a position where the air force gets to keep her for the maximum amount of time. Putting her in charge of the Atlantis expedition does that, what better place than an offworld expedition of military and scientists?

As for the so called chemistry between the characters I think some people are letting their biases get in the way. I think the way Sam interacts with the other characters is spot on for who she is and the position she is in. Oh, and BTW, I don't like Sam more than Weir - I like them both.

Spot on. People keep ignoring the career military part of her and that aspect has very specific requirements.

I think her military career is sometimes ignored because her science acumen is pushed instead, by fans and TPTB. It is, after all, more pertinent than her military knowledge, which can be replicated (har) by other military personnel.

Seeing chemistry isn't a bias per se. Instead, it's qualifiable, or something more of taste. If we all liked the same things, life would be boring (but it would make buying toothpaste so much easier).

While I do prefer Weir over Sam - but still like Sam - I woudn't sneeze if they found a way to return Weir to the fold. I like her interaction with the team more than I do with Sam, at least from what's been presented thus far. A lot of that has to do with the writing.

I think the writers are losing out by (it seems) not having plans to bring Weir back (judging from the latest MGM article on Torri H - www.mgm.com/stargate). They could tackle some good moral issues, and emotional ones, too.

Mister Oragahn
December 11th, 2007, 09:46 AM
Actually, with the nanites in the DupliTeam's bodies, they could have survived and it wouldn't have been "miraculous."

Of course, they survive, manage to kill Oberoth's team, and don't get blasted from above by those two corvettes.

Makes total sense to me. :S

Cautious Explorer
December 11th, 2007, 09:52 AM
Yea but that is what happens when a conversation breaks out in a thread. The topic was pretty much another anti-Carter love fest in the beginning.

Personally I think they could have created a new military/science officer to take control of Atlantis but that would have been an even greater risk. Carter has an established history in SG canon and Amanda Tapping is a known commodity. So in a producer role I think they made a logical choice in selecting Carter to cross over into a leadership role.


That's the problem. They're afraid of risk. That's why they're recycling Carter into a role that doesn't fit her very well. Have to keep the tried and true no matter how awkward the fit.

Integrabyte
December 11th, 2007, 10:06 AM
I said it before and I am going to say it again :D. Give Carter the P90 and let her walk through the gate :D

jelgate
December 11th, 2007, 10:07 AM
I said it before and I am going to say it again :D.?* Give Carter the P90 and let her walk through the gate :DIf we do that we'll have people complaining that Carter is taking over Atlantis

Integrabyte
December 11th, 2007, 10:08 AM
If we do that we'll have people complaining that Carter is taking over Atlantis

Nobody has to know. It will be our secret :P.

Cautious Explorer
December 11th, 2007, 10:10 AM
I said it before and I am going to say it again :D. Give Carter the P90 and let her walk through the gate :D


If we do that we'll have people complaining that Carter is taking over Atlantis

No one says she has to come back. ;)
She can walk out the gate and just keep going.

Integrabyte
December 11th, 2007, 10:11 AM
No one says she has to come back. ;)
She can walk out the gate and just keep going.

You deserve a cookie for that post ;).


Can't green you but funny nonetheless :D

RealmOfX
December 11th, 2007, 11:27 AM
That's the problem. They're afraid of risk. That's why they're recycling Carter into a role that doesn't fit her very well. Have to keep the tried and true no matter how awkward the fit.

The role fits her extremely well. Leader of an offworld expedition comprised of a military and science component is a good fit for Carter.

Oh look! People have different opinions on the subject - go figure!

Cautious Explorer
December 11th, 2007, 11:36 AM
The role fits her extremely well. Leader of an offworld expedition comprised of a military and science component is a good fit for Carter.

Oh look! People have different opinions on the subject - go figure!

Have I said you aren't entitled to an opinion?

In my opinion she doesn't fit. She seems lost, aimless. Can't be the scientist, because that's Rodney's job. Can't be out leading missions, because that's John's job. Hasn't done much of anything yet.

IMO she's there because she was someone from SG-1 and TPTB are afraid to let go. I would prefer they take a risk and actually create a new character to lead Atlantis if they weren't happy with Weir.

RealmOfX
December 11th, 2007, 11:50 AM
Have I said you aren't entitled to an opinion?

In my opinion she doesn't fit. She seems lost, aimless. Can't be the scientist, because that's Rodney's job. Can't be out leading missions, because that's John's job. Hasn't done much of anything yet.

IMO she's there because she was someone from SG-1 and TPTB are afraid to let go. I would prefer they take a risk and actually create a new character to lead Atlantis if they weren't happy with Weir.

I find it amusing that peple think that there can only be one person doing a job :rolleyes: in situations where many people are required to have cross skills. Both military and scientific expeditions require a heavy overlap of skills between the members so as to ensure their success.

Rodney is the only scientist - laughable.
Shep is the only one to lead missions - equally laughable.

Carter isn't there to do either "job", she is there as the leader. Having a leader who has the skills to do the job of those under their command is a good thing. It's a pity some people can't see that.

Cautious Explorer
December 11th, 2007, 11:55 AM
I find it amusing that peple think that there can only be one person doing a job :rolleyes: in situations where many people are required to have cross skills. Both military and scientific expeditions require a heavy overlap of skills between the members so as to ensure their success.

Rodney is the only scientist - laughable.
Shep is the only one to lead missions - equally laughable.

Carter isn't there to do either "job", she is there as the leader. Having a leader who has the skills to do the job of those under their command is a good thing. It's a pity some people can't see that.

But do the Stargate writers know that more than one character can do a job? I haven't seen a lot of evidence of this. They tend to categorize characters into a specific role. The CMO, the head scientist, the military leader. The only reason we met another doctor on the staff was because the original was killed off.

RealmOfX
December 11th, 2007, 12:31 PM
But do the Stargate writers know that more than one character can do a job? I haven't seen a lot of evidence of this. They tend to categorize characters into a specific role. The CMO, the head scientist, the military leader. The only reason we met another doctor on the staff was because the original was killed off.

Do the writers know this? Yes

Does saying that you haven't seen a lot of evidence imply that you have seen some evidence? Just curious about the phrasing.

You claim that Carter can't be the scientist because that's Rodney's job and yet we have on many occasions seen lots of scientists other than Rodney.

You claim that Carter can't be out leading missions because that's Shep's job and yet we have seen others out leading missions.

Well apart from the fact that Carter isn't there to do either of those jobs, it would seem that the writers do in fact know that more than one character can do a job... but some fans don't ;)

Ltcolshepjumper
December 11th, 2007, 12:51 PM
If your not familiar with my stance on Carter leading the Expedition... I like Carter better than Weir in general, but I was hoping for Carter to be recurring, and not a star of Atlantis.

I don't think there's any denying at this point that Weir has much better chemistry with the Atlantis cast than Carter does. "This Mortal Coil" really made that abundantly clear.

I agree. And it has everything to do with the personalities of the SGA characters as opposed to SG1. Also, not to be too generic, but the relationship among the SGA team is much more family-like, in contrast with the close comrade-like relationship present in SG1. That's why carter doesn't have that same type of chemistry. Hers is more of a close camaraderie. Weir's is more of the close family relationship.

Also, here is my breakdown of how Carter and Weir could work in the same environment:


Carter- military commander and science overseer(overseer of non-exploratory operations)
Weir- diplomatic overseer ( over off-world exploration and interplanetary relations)
Sheppard- directly under Carter, strictly military command (since he will be focused on going offworld, and Carter goes back and forth between Atlantis and Earth, they could both be co-commanders)
Mckay- he and Carter head the science department equally.
Zelenka- directly under Mckay in an assisting position
Beckett (if he ever returns) CMO
Keller- (serving in the same type of role as Zelenka, under Beckett)

Cautious Explorer
December 11th, 2007, 04:20 PM
Do the writers know this? Yes

Does saying that you haven't seen a lot of evidence imply that you have seen some evidence? Just curious about the phrasing.

You claim that Carter can't be the scientist because that's Rodney's job and yet we have on many occasions seen lots of scientists other than Rodney.

You claim that Carter can't be out leading missions because that's Shep's job and yet we have seen others out leading missions.

Well apart from the fact that Carter isn't there to do either of those jobs, it would seem that the writers do in fact know that more than one character can do a job... but some fans don't ;)

I'm not sure what you don't understand about my phrasing. How many ways are there to interpret "not a lot"?

I think Stargate tends to create characters to fulfill a specific role: scientist, soldier, leader, physician, etc. There isn't much overlap, except for the occasional assistance of semi-regular or supporting characters.

Ford served as military backup on Sheppard's team and was replaced by Ronon, the alien warrior. Keller wasn't added to be a colleague of Beckett's. She was brought in to replace him. Weir is gone. Carter is here to fill the leader role -- not additional scientist and not additonal soldier.

Phenix
December 11th, 2007, 04:31 PM
That's the problem. They're afraid of risk. That's why they're recycling Carter into a role that doesn't fit her very well. Have to keep the tried and true no matter how awkward the fit.

I think you are taking for granted the real risk of cancellation. SGA was not guaranteed an additional season which is a serious flaw in SciFi's operating procedures. If a show has a 2 or 3 year window then the writers have the ability to create fuller story arc. They can also develop a new character.

Carter is an established character that could generate some cross over fans. She was also replacing a character that was well replaceable. I never felt that Weir was a fan favorite. I know she was not one of my favorites. The series was also getting stale. Many of us were complaining about the McKay Sheppard Hour so it does make sense to bring in an established character from SG-1. At least it makes sense to bring in a character that commands both military and scientific respect. Carter fills that role and you do not need to delve into a back story to make people understand why the crew of Atlantis respects and accepts Carter.

Cautious Explorer
December 11th, 2007, 05:15 PM
I think you are taking for granted the real risk of cancellation. SGA was not guaranteed an additional season which is a serious flaw in SciFi's operating procedures. If a show has a 2 or 3 year window then the writers have the ability to create fuller story arc. They can also develop a new character.

Carter is an established character that could generate some cross over fans. She was also replacing a character that was well replaceable. I never felt that Weir was a fan favorite. I know she was not one of my favorites. The series was also getting stale. Many of us were complaining about the McKay Sheppard Hour so it does make sense to bring in an established character from SG-1. At least it makes sense to bring in a character that commands both military and scientific respect. Carter fills that role and you do not need to delve into a back story to make people understand why the crew of Atlantis respects and accepts Carter.

You're assuming that creativity and risk taking wouldn't generate ratings. Maybe that's part of the problem.

You stated that you thought the series was getting stale. The solution is to bring in a character that was created 10 years ago? Isn't there a risk that she is stale too?

The only solution to the "McKay/Sheppard Hour" is to bring in an established character from SG-1? How about simply focusing on the character that are already part of SGA?

Does Carter have enough fans on her own to generate a rise in ratings? What if her popularity doesn't translate beyond her association with the rest of the SG-1 team? What if the Weir fans lost are roughly equal to the Carter fans gained?

I don't need backstory on Carter to tell me she's a respected soldier and scientist. What I do need is something on screen to show me she has what it takes to be an effective leader. For me, there's just nothing that tells me this is the person who should be in charge. She's just there. Nothing interesting. I would much prefer they'd taken a gamble on someone new.

PG15
December 11th, 2007, 05:20 PM
By your own definition then, bringing Carter over was a risk, yes? Looks like they are taking risks after all.

RealmOfX
December 11th, 2007, 05:21 PM
By your own definition then, bringing Carter over was a risk, yes? Looks like they are taking risks after all.

Ouch! No Fair using logic!

Cautious Explorer
December 11th, 2007, 05:38 PM
By your own definition then, bringing Carter over was a risk, yes? Looks like they are taking risks after all.

No, not really. I don't think she's going to factor into the ratings much one way or the other.

Or are you referring to the risk they take in losing viewers when they forego creativity and fall back on the same thing over and over again?

PG15
December 11th, 2007, 05:47 PM
I was refering to the risk they've taken by bringing over Sam and shaking up the show's core cast. Instead of using the same cast and writing themselves into a rut, they decided to do otherwise.

Cautious Explorer
December 11th, 2007, 05:52 PM
I was refering to the risk they've taken by bringing over Sam and shaking up the show's core cast. Instead of using the same cast and writing themselves into a rut, they decided to do otherwise.

How is adding a character they've been writing for 10 years not continuing on in the same old rut?

Jill_Ion
December 11th, 2007, 06:10 PM
How is adding a character they've been writing for 10 years not continuing on in the same old rut?

It's a different rut? :o

PG15
December 11th, 2007, 06:27 PM
Yeah, pretty much. Heh.

It's not just writing Sam again, it's writing all the other characters' reactions and how they deal with this event.

Cautious Explorer
December 11th, 2007, 06:27 PM
It's a different rut? :o

True, very true. :D:D

Irish Eyes
December 11th, 2007, 06:29 PM
Does Carter have enough fans on her own to generate a rise in ratings? What if her popularity doesn't translate beyond her association with the rest of the SG-1 team? What if the Weir fans lost are roughly equal to the Carter fans gained?


I still don't know why they didn't just keep both characters, maybe split their time somehow, and thus keep all the fans of each. Maybe they underestimated the Weir fanbase and I'm not just talking about those of us actively campaigning for her return.

There's no way to know if either of these characters have had an impact on the ratings, but I would think you would want to keep as many viewers as you can.

Agent_Dark
December 11th, 2007, 07:40 PM
I still don't know why they didn't just keep both characters, maybe split their time somehow, and thus keep all the fans of each. Maybe they underestimated the Weir fanbase and I'm not just talking about those of us actively campaigning for her return.

There's no way to know if either of these characters have had an impact on the ratings, but I would think you would want to keep as many viewers as you can.
ratings for season 4 are pretty much the same as backhalf of season3. so people didn't stop watching because weir is gone.

justhere1971
December 12th, 2007, 03:20 AM
From:
http://snipurl.com/1v5g7


Sci Fi saga. The concluding two parts of Sci Fi Channel's Tin Man (4.4 million and 5.1 million Monday and Tuesday) made the miniseries the channel's most-watched yet, with a combined average of 5.3 million. Friday's season finale of Stargate Atlantis claimed 1.6 million.

alyssa
December 12th, 2007, 03:28 AM
ratings for season 4 are pretty much the same as backhalf of season3. so people didn't stop watching because weir is gone.

All that means is they broke even. Carter fans in, Weir fans out.

If they'd used both of them, the situation would look much better in the ratings.

justhere1971
December 12th, 2007, 03:31 AM
All that means is they broke even. Carter fans in, Weir fans out.

If they'd used both of them, the situation would look much better in the ratings.

Exactly. It could've been a win win situation.

prion
December 12th, 2007, 04:03 AM
ratings for season 4 are pretty much the same as backhalf of season3. so people didn't stop watching because weir is gone.

NOBODY can say who stopped watching for a particular reason, not unless you interview all the people who used to watch who now don't. People lose interest over the summer, lose interest if they lose a character (say, like beckett), premiering in the summer instead of winter, etc.

And, the ratings stuff has a thread in the NEWS section. that's where people can argue, er, discuss ad naseum why they *think* the ratings went one way or another ;)

prion
December 12th, 2007, 04:06 AM
I was refering to the risk they've taken by bringing over Sam and shaking up the show's core cast. Instead of using the same cast and writing themselves into a rut, they decided to do otherwise.

well, the 'writing into a rut' has nothing to do with the characters but the writers reusing scripts from SG1 and copying movie scripts. THAT's writing into a rut. They could bring in brad Pitt but if they reuse an SG1 script, they're in a rut.

I don't want SGA to become BSG with that style of writing, but the stargate universe has mainly stayed in a predictible, episodic style (or rut) ;) Unfortunately they've also gone with the network style of killing characters to increase ratings or change things, instead of getting in new writiers with new ideas.

Jill_Ion
December 12th, 2007, 05:43 AM
It's a different rut? :o


True, very true. :D:D

BTW, I personally don't think they're in a rut.

alyssa
December 12th, 2007, 09:17 AM
Unfortunately they've also gone with the network style of killing characters to increase ratings or change things, instead of getting in new writiers with new ideas.

Yeah, right. Who needs ideas or decent writers when you've got a couple of actors you can sack, and a couple more you can bring in for stunt casting.

jelgate
December 12th, 2007, 11:15 AM
Yeah, right. Who needs ideas or decent writers when you've got a couple of actors you can sack, and a couple more you can bring in for stunt casting.Its not realastic for everyone to live in a galaxy with space vampires and homocidal machines.

Ripple in Space
December 12th, 2007, 11:12 PM
Its not realastic for everyone to live in a galaxy with space vampires and homocidal machines.

The iratis bug & replicators are more realistic than the Asgard.

Cautious Explorer
December 13th, 2007, 03:17 AM
Its not realastic for everyone to live in a galaxy with space vampires and homocidal machines.

If it's unrealistic for the Atlantis characters to survive in their four years, then it's totally unrealistic that Carter is still alive. For the sake of realism, maybe she should be the next to go.

Integrabyte
December 13th, 2007, 05:59 AM
Its not realastic for everyone to live in a galaxy with space vampires and homocidal machines.

Is it realistic to have a Battlestar and jump 240 times in a row cos you get pwned by Robots?:mckay:

Celcool
December 13th, 2007, 07:41 AM
No one says she has to come back. ;)
She can walk out the gate and just keep going.

Ha ha. Green!

prion
December 13th, 2007, 10:07 AM
Its not realastic for everyone to live in a galaxy with space vampires and homocidal machines.

Well, if you mean survive, yes, that makes sense, but it's also annoying when the produces/network/whoever decides that killing off a main character will improve the show, instead of doing something more proactive, like better writing ;)

PG15
December 13th, 2007, 02:36 PM
Of course, "better" writing is oh-so subjective, is it not? ;)

Seriously, I see "better writing" all the time, but really, people just mean "write stuff that I like", which, you know, is completely selfish.

1 post until 10000!! :D

Redhooks
December 13th, 2007, 02:42 PM
Of course, "better" writing is oh-so subjective, is it not? ;)

Seriously, I see "better writing" all the time, but really, people just mean "write stuff that I like", which, you know, is completely selfish.

1 post until 10000!! :D
All of TV show criticism is subjective so that is nothing new. I guess you should be lucky you like the way this season is being written. I've had a few issues with it, but it is better than seasons 2 or 3 for me. Time will tell if it will surpass season 1 for overall best written season so far for me.

Avenger
December 13th, 2007, 08:14 PM
If it's unrealistic for the Atlantis characters to survive in their four years, then it's totally unrealistic that Carter is still alive. For the sake of realism, maybe she should be the next to go.

There were people who fought in WWII from Normandy to the end of the war who were never wounded. It's not unrealistic that a single person wouldn't be killed over a period of time like that.

majorsal
December 13th, 2007, 08:20 PM
That's the problem. They're afraid of risk. That's why they're recycling Carter into a role that doesn't fit her very well. Have to keep the tried and true no matter how awkward the fit.


why do you say that? sam's *always* shown an interest and ability for command. she was a second in command from the get-go of the sg1 series, and we've seen her doing command stuff, before she was made commander of sg1 in s8.



sally :)

Cautious Explorer
December 14th, 2007, 03:59 AM
why do you say that? sam's *always* shown an interest and ability for command. she was a second in command from the get-go of the sg1 series, and we've seen her doing command stuff, before she was made commander of sg1 in s8.



sally :)

WE haven't seen Carter in command before. YOU have seen Carter in command. She may have been fantastic on SG-1. I don't know or care, since that's not a show I watch. This is Atlantis. She needs to be a commander on Atlantis. So far, I've seen no command presence, not even much self-confidence or intelligence. If she's so familiar with command, I fail to see why she comes off as so weak and ill-at-ease in a command position.

Carter is a mirror reflection of Keller and her insecurity as the CMO. Only Keller is not supposed to have had a leadership role before. They two of them together is beyond annoying. What is this, training ground Atlantis?

Salas1
December 14th, 2007, 04:48 AM
Seeing Weir in this episode made it clear to me how much the show's chemistry misses her. Wow, was Torri's acting dynamite. Oh well... back to Sam the Admin who should be Sam the Scientist...


Are you serious? Torri acts way way over the top. All the dramatic pauses she makes are annoying and are the kind of things a leader in Weir's situation should not be making. But then they've made Carter more hesitant in stuff as well, which is a stupid decision if intended.

chocdoc
December 14th, 2007, 04:56 AM
WE haven't seen Carter in command before. YOU have seen Carter in command. She may have been fantastic on SG-1. I don't know or care, since that's not a show I watch. This is Atlantis. She needs to be a commander on Atlantis. So far, I've seen no command presence, not even much self-confidence or intelligence. If she's so familiar with command, I fail to see why she comes off as so weak and ill-at-ease in a command position.

Carter is a mirror reflection of Keller and her insecurity as the CMO. Only Keller is not supposed to have had a leadership role before. They two of them together is beyond annoying. What is this, training ground Atlantis?


I see Carter completely differently. We really only have two episodes where she has been the leader (Reunion and Seer). The first two she was in, she was not leader. And Tabula Rasa and Dopplehanger were unusual situations, particularly Tabula Rasa where they lost their memories. So, examining her leadership thus far, I think she stood up to Ronon quite convincingly in Reunion. She didn't yell back at him, but she didn't back down either. And I thought she showed strong leadership in The Seer. She went to informed sources like Sheppard and Mckay as I would expect, but she ultimately made the decisions. And she held her ground with the Wraith and with Woolsey, ultimately making the best decision that saved people's lives. Not bad so far. I don't see her as weak at all, but quite the opposite. It will be interesting for me to see how she continues to grow in this leadership role.

justhere1971
December 14th, 2007, 04:58 AM
Are you serious? Torri acts way way over the top. All the dramatic pauses she makes are annoying and are the kind of things a leader in Weir's situation should not be making. But then they've made Carter more hesitant in stuff as well, which is a stupid decision if intended.

A good leader should not make rash decisions. That's what good leaders do. Make informed decisions. Not jump in feet first, without giving the matter at hand proper thought.

If a person always did the first thing that popped into their heads, I think we'd have a problem.

Cautious Explorer
December 14th, 2007, 05:12 AM
I see Carter completely differently. We really only have two episodes where she has been the leader (Reunion and Seer). The first two she was in, she was not leader. And Tabula Rasa and Dopplehanger were unusual situations, particularly Tabula Rasa where they lost their memories. So, examining her leadership thus far, I think she stood up to Ronon quite convincingly in Reunion. She didn't yell back at him, but she didn't back down either. And I thought she showed strong leadership in The Seer. She went to informed sources like Sheppard and Mckay as I would expect, but she ultimately made the decisions. And she held her ground with the Wraith and with Woolsey, ultimately making the best decision that saved people's lives. Not bad so far. I don't see her as weak at all, but quite the opposite. It will be interesting for me to see how she continues to grow in this leadership role.

I thought she was all over the board in Reunion. Tearful with Tealc, hesitant coming through the gate, stiff in her introduction to the staff, then she threatens Ronon, changes her mind and decides to go on a rescue mission she should have sent someone else on. No sign of good leadership there. In Doppleganger, she talked about her past experiences, gave a trite, flat emotionless address about Heighmeyer's death and needed reassurance from Keller. In the Seer, she's making faces when Keller asks about her intentions towards the seer, is totally indecisive on the balcony, and is so flustered she yells "shut up" at the IOA representative. Atlantis needs a commander that behaves like a commander.

I know she's supposed to have all these great qualifications from SG-1, but from what I've seen so far she's not prepared to do the job. I don't think they would have written a male commander this way: timid, unsure,
indecisive and in need of the expedition's approval. There's no need for the leader to be a tyrant, but at least a little command presence would not be misplaced.

scholar
December 14th, 2007, 12:26 PM
Are you serious? Torri acts way way over the top. All the dramatic pauses she makes are annoying and are the kind of things a leader in Weir's situation should not be making. But then they've made Carter more hesitant in stuff as well, which is a stupid decision if intended.

Absolutely. Why wouldn't I be serious? Anyways, for some perspective, I am not anti-Carter. I like Tapping's acting ability. I loved the character in SG-1. When I heard, during the pre-season, that she was being added to Atlantis, I felt it was a good thing. I never felt negative about it.

As the season's gone on, I have kinda gotten indifferent to her being on the show. Carter was just kinda there, not standing out at all. Not at all like the Carter that most of us know and love. So, like I said, I just kinda looked past her and focused on the characters that the show was highlighting like Shepperd and McKay. I have enjoyed this season for the most part. Not saying every episode was a 10, but, I do consider this a good season so far.

Anyways, then I watched Torri on Mortal Coil. I saw how alive her character felt. How well she interacted with the other team members. It was like they dumped a bucket of ice water on me. It showed me just how poorly Carter was coming across. I am not saying that it is Amanda's fault. But, frankly, we are getting a rather poor version of Samantha Carter. It's like watching her in black and white when she should be written to be seen in High Definition Color.

prion
December 14th, 2007, 01:04 PM
it make sense that Carter is in the background, as that's where Weir was. Yeah, I've said it before, but she's now the administrative head of Atlantis, and the burden of that position is staying at home and dealing with the fires that erupt on the base, not going out on missions. They need to put her in the position of dealing with those headaches, not just the 'cool' save the base stuff. I still remember O'Neill griping about potatoes and it would be nice if Carter had to deal with personnel problems, etc.

chocdoc
December 14th, 2007, 01:10 PM
I thought she was all over the board in Reunion. Tearful with Tealc, hesitant coming through the gate, stiff in her introduction to the staff, then she threatens Ronon, changes her mind and decides to go on a rescue mission she should have sent someone else on. No sign of good leadership there. In Doppleganger, she talked about her past experiences, gave a trite, flat emotionless address about Heighmeyer's death and needed reassurance from Keller. In the Seer, she's making faces when Keller asks about her intentions towards the seer, is totally indecisive on the balcony, and is so flustered she yells "shut up" at the IOA representative. Atlantis needs a commander that behaves like a commander.

I know she's supposed to have all these great qualifications from SG-1, but from what I've seen so far she's not prepared to do the job. I don't think they would have written a male commander this way: timid, unsure,
indecisive and in need of the expedition's approval. There's no need for the leader to be a tyrant, but at least a little command presence would not be misplaced.

There's not much more to say. I see Carter very differently than you do, and interpret her behavior much differently -- e.g., her tears with Teal'c (a very warm scene between two dear friends). Anyway, for me and I'm sure not for you, I am looking forward to the fact that Carter will be in eight out of ten episodes in the second half. I want to see more of her as commander.

Cameron Mitchel
December 14th, 2007, 01:11 PM
I thought she was all over the board in Reunion. Tearful with Tealc, hesitant coming through the gate, stiff in her introduction to the staff, then she threatens Ronon, changes her mind and decides to go on a rescue mission she should have sent someone else on. No sign of good leadership there. In Doppleganger, she talked about her past experiences, gave a trite, flat emotionless address about Heighmeyer's death and needed reassurance from Keller. In the Seer, she's making faces when Keller asks about her intentions towards the seer, is totally indecisive on the balcony, and is so flustered she yells "shut up" at the IOA representative. Atlantis needs a commander that behaves like a commander.

I know she's supposed to have all these great qualifications from SG-1, but from what I've seen so far she's not prepared to do the job. I don't think they would have written a male commander this way: timid, unsure,
indecisive and in need of the expedition's approval. There's no need for the leader to be a tyrant, but at least a little command presence would not be misplaced.
If not Weir, then we need Ellis!!

Cameron Mitchel
December 14th, 2007, 01:12 PM
There's not much more to say. I see Carter very differently than you do, and interpret her behavior much differently -- e.g., her tears with Teal'c (a very warm scene between two dear friends). Anyway, for me and I'm sure not for you, I am looking forward to the fact that Carter will be in eight out of ten episodes in the second half. I want to see more of her as commander.
Do you mean you want to see her as a commander, because you can't have more of something when you haven't had it at all.

Ltcolshepjumper
December 14th, 2007, 01:20 PM
Absolutely. Why wouldn't I be serious? Anyways, for some perspective, I am not anti-Carter. I like Tapping's acting ability. I loved the character in SG-1. When I heard, during the pre-season, that she was being added to Atlantis, I felt it was a good thing. I never felt negative about it.

As the season's gone on, I have kinda gotten indifferent to her being on the show. Carter was just kinda there, not standing out at all. Not at all like the Carter that most of us know and love. So, like I said, I just kinda looked past her and focused on the characters that the show was highlighting like Shepperd and McKay. I have enjoyed this season for the most part. Not saying every episode was a 10, but, I do consider this a good season so far.

Anyways, then I watched Torri on Mortal Coil. I saw how alive her character felt. How well she interacted with the other team members. It was like they dumped a bucket of ice water on me. It showed me just how poorly Carter was coming across. I am not saying that it is Amanda's fault. But, frankly, we are getting a rather poor version of Samantha Carter. It's like watching her in black and white when she should be written to be seen in High Definition Color.

So true. Carter on SG-1= DYNAMIC, INTERESTING CHARACTER
Carter on Atlantis= WALLPAPER
Why? Carter can't possibly interact with the SGA team in the way that Weir could. Just like the SGA team can't possibly interact with the SG1 team like Carter could. The team dynamics are different.
Carter is, and will always be, an SG1 character, despite TPTBs attempts to make her otherwise.

justhere1971
December 14th, 2007, 02:24 PM
So true. Carter on SG-1= DYNAMIC, INTERESTING CHARACTER
Carter on Atlantis= WALLPAPER
Why? Carter can't possibly interact with the SGA team in the way that Weir could. Just like the SGA team can't possibly interact with the SG1 team like Carter could. The team dynamics are different.
Carter is, and will always be, an SG1 character, despite TPTBs attempts to make her otherwise.

ITA. Every single word of it.

Jumper_One
December 14th, 2007, 02:25 PM
ITA. Every single word of it.

and I don't ;) :p

justhere1971
December 14th, 2007, 02:28 PM
and I don't ;) :p

heee alright then we negate each other. :D

Jumper_One
December 14th, 2007, 02:40 PM
heee alright then we negate each other. :D

lol yeah you know I'm just not in the mood for another Carter in Atlantis talk right now. I've had plenty of those lately (and honestly I hope these people have learned some new stuff about her throughout those discussions because I certainly have). and since we're probably gonna see a lot of her in future eps I guess we'll end up discussing her anyway. but not today we don't ;) :D

Integrabyte
December 15th, 2007, 03:36 AM
So true. Carter on SG-1= DYNAMIC, INTERESTING CHARACTER
Carter on Atlantis= WALLPAPER
Why? Carter can't possibly interact with the SGA team in the way that Weir could. Just like the SGA team can't possibly interact with the SG1 team like Carter could. The team dynamics are different.
Carter is, and will always be, an SG1 character, despite TPTBs attempts to make her otherwise.

Its because of bad writing. In BSG, not my favourite show btw, guest stars are written so well that their impression lasts so long and sometimes they can be compared to main characters. In SGA, Carter can bond with the expedition but if the script does not allow her...

Mitchell82
December 15th, 2007, 12:03 PM
I thought she was all over the board in Reunion. Tearful with Tealc, hesitant coming through the gate, stiff in her introduction to the staff, then she threatens Ronon, changes her mind and decides to go on a rescue mission she should have sent someone else on. No sign of good leadership there. In Doppleganger, she talked about her past experiences, gave a trite, flat emotionless address about Heighmeyer's death and needed reassurance from Keller. In the Seer, she's making faces when Keller asks about her intentions towards the seer, is totally indecisive on the balcony, and is so flustered she yells "shut up" at the IOA representative. Atlantis needs a commander that behaves like a commander.
I disagree. Carter was leary of comanding Atlantis because it was a new experience and wasn't sure she could shoulder the responsibilty. She was realistically nervous. In Reunion she didn't know the team that well and did not threaten Ronon just pointed out he was valuable and warned him to be carefull since he couldn't know for sure if he could trust them. As per her going offworld you can't be a commander and ask people to risk their lives if you arent willing to do the same yourself. She did the right thing and gained alot of trust from them. SHe gave a very good speach about Kate and very much better than Weir. He speaches tired me out. Wollsey can be an ass and she did what she thought was the best call and it was she does act like a commander ar better than Weir.


I know she's supposed to have all these great qualifications from SG-1, but from what I've seen so far she's not prepared to do the job. I don't think they would have written a male commander this way: timid, unsure,
indecisive and in need of the expedition's approval. There's no need for the leader to be a tyrant, but at least a little command presence would not be misplaced.
A disagree and she is far from a tyrant.

Salas1
December 15th, 2007, 04:42 PM
A good leader should not make rash decisions. That's what good leaders do. Make informed decisions. Not jump in feet first, without giving the matter at hand proper thought.

If a person always did the first thing that popped into their heads, I think we'd have a problem.

That's not what that means. She pauses in the middle of sentences as if unsure of herself. Good leaders instil confidence by being confident in what they say.

justhere1971
December 15th, 2007, 06:10 PM
That's not what that means. She pauses in the middle of sentences as if unsure of herself. Good leaders instil confidence by being confident in what they say.

Sometimes a good leader also knows how to pause for effect.

Killdeer
December 15th, 2007, 06:12 PM
^^I think it has more to do with the actress's acting style.

Which I happen to like - I think TH is a good actress. But everyone has different tastes in acting styles. Just look at CSI:Miami. :D

justhere1971
December 15th, 2007, 06:15 PM
^^I think it has more to do with the actress's acting style.

Which I happen to like - I think TH is a good actress. But everyone has different tastes in acting styles. Just look at CSI:Miami. :D

Ah I don't think anyone here wants me to get started on "dramatic pause CSI:Miami" :D

I understand what you are saying. Yes, everyone has different acting style. I happen to like TH's.

Jumper_One
December 15th, 2007, 06:17 PM
Ah I don't think anyone here wants me to get started on "dramatic pause CSI:Miami" :D

I understand what you are saying. Yes, everyone has different acting style. I happen to like TH's.

what about CSI:NY? :p

justhere1971
December 15th, 2007, 06:20 PM
what about CSI:NY? :p

Maybe they should just rename all the CSIs? Are they upto 3 now? I've lost count.

Killdeer
December 15th, 2007, 06:21 PM
what about CSI:NY? :p

I like CSI:NY. And we are going way way off topic. :D

Jumper_One
December 15th, 2007, 06:33 PM
haha yeah way OT


Maybe they should just rename all the CSIs? Are they upto 3 now? I've lost count.

yup there are three: CSI, CSI: Miami and CSI:NY


I like CSI:NY. And we are going way way off topic. :D

yeah I like it too :)

isn't it nice to talk not about Carter? I know this is the appropirate thread but in the end I'll probably disagree with you two anyway. to talk about CSI is nice...as long as it lasts...sky???

Killdeer
December 15th, 2007, 06:40 PM
haha yeah way OT



yup there are three: CSI, CSI: Miami and CSI:NY



yeah I like it too :)

isn't it nice to talk not about Carter? I know this is the appropirate thread but in the end I'll probably disagree with you two anyway. to talk about CSI is nice...as long as it lasts...sky???


:lol: True enough. Hey, if you really want to talk about CSI, there's a thread in Off Topic. :)

justhere1971
December 15th, 2007, 06:49 PM
:lol: True enough. Hey, if you really want to talk about CSI, there's a thread in Off Topic. :)

If we're going to go OT -- can we start talking about Pushing Daisy? :P I haven't figured out if I like this or not.

And Jumper_One, I am always up for a good discussion. If we all agreed, there won't be too much to talk about now, would there? :D

Killdeer
December 15th, 2007, 07:05 PM
If we're going to go OT -- can we start talking about Pushing Daisy? :P I haven't figured out if I like this or not.

LOL. Sorry - can't be much help on Pushing Daisies. I tried the pilot, but haven't watched since then. :)

Jumper_One
December 15th, 2007, 07:07 PM
:lol: True enough. Hey, if you really want to talk about CSI, there's a thread in Off Topic. :)


If we're going to go OT -- can we start talking about Pushing Daisy? :P I haven't figured out if I like this or not.

And Jumper_One, I am always up for a good discussion. If we all agreed, there won't be too much to talk about now, would there? :D

ooh I'd love to talk about CSI but I'm currently in europe visiting some friends and it's past 5 am... I'll be leaving in a few days though so maybe we can discuss it then? :)

Cautious Explorer
December 15th, 2007, 07:32 PM
I disagree. Carter was leary of comanding Atlantis because it was a new experience and wasn't sure she could shoulder the responsibilty. She was realistically nervous.
I think a good leader should be confident. If, as you believe, Carter wasn't sure she could shoulder the responsibility, she should have stayed at the SGC. From her initial conversation with John and Rodney, it appears she sought the position. It doesn't seem like she was ordered to Atlantis despite voicing her own misgivings.


In Reunion she didn't know the team that well and did not threaten Ronon just pointed out he was valuable and warned him to be carefull since he couldn't know for sure if he could trust them.
She implied to Ronon that he knew too much to be allowed to leave Atlantis and join his friends. I'd call that a threat. She wasn't voicing concern about his well being, unless you consider warning someone that your going to cause something dire to happen to them if they defy you to be concern

As per her going offworld you can't be a commander and ask people to risk their lives if you arent willing to do the same yourself. She did the right thing and gained alot of trust from them.
So I guess you thought Hammond wasn't a good commander because he stayed at the SGC.

A good leader should know when to delegate to better qualified people. She had a base full of qualified military personnel with far more experience in the Pegasus Galaxy and already accustomed to working together who could have better handled the mission IMO



SHe gave a very good speach about Kate and very much better than Weir. He speaches tired me out.
"Doctor Kate Heightmeyer meant a great deal to all of us. Her death is nothing short of tragic." That is what Carter said about Heightmeyer. It was lame, uninspired and delivered in a monotone. I think almost anyone could have done better. I don't want her bursting into tears, but with that intonation she could just as easily have been calling for a price check at register three.



Wollsey can be an ass and she did what she thought was the best call and it was she does act like a commander ar better than Weir.

Woolsey was a stooge set up by the writers as a means to try to make Carter look tough. She can stand up to the token bureaucrat. The same token bureaucrat that Weir stood up to. I don't see how you think that makes Carter a better commander than Weir.


A disagree and she is far from a tyrant.

I think she's too unsure of herself and too much in need of approval to be a tyrant. I would think a tyrant would have a much stronger personality. There's one good thing I can say about her. She's not a tyrant. :)

justhere1971
December 16th, 2007, 04:30 AM
ooh I'd love to talk about CSI but I'm currently in europe visiting some friends and it's past 5 am... I'll be leaving in a few days though so maybe we can discuss it then? :)

You're on!

bluealien
December 16th, 2007, 05:01 AM
Of course, "better" writing is oh-so subjective, is it not? ;)

Seriously, I see "better writing" all the time, but really, people just mean "write stuff that I like", which, you know, is completely selfish.

1 post until 10000!! :D

I completely agree.

Integrabyte
December 16th, 2007, 05:10 AM
I completely agree.

I don't. You don't have to like something to admire the quality. I hate LOTR I. Jackson with this film pushed the cinema industry to another level. I prefer SGA to BSG but most of the characters in BSG seem better developed and better written. Helena Cain, was not a main character, and she was written in such a way that she shadows most major characters in SGA (Teyla, Ronon, Lorne, Zelenka, etc). I like Chaucer more than Shakespeare but when one talks about Macbeth, King Lear, Hamlet, one cannot ignore the quality and the genius Shakespeare had. So this whole, write something I like does not work. So PG, I can feel the smell all the way here....

PG15
December 16th, 2007, 04:14 PM
Heeeey...weren't you ignoring me? I liked it better then.

Well, suffice it to say I disagree. "Better writing" is in and of itself completely subjective, with no real "scale" or "rule" to measure it up against. LOTR (which I love) pushed cinema fowards (sort of; all it led to is a bunch of copycat historical "epic" films) because a bunch of people liked it (subjectively) and thus paid money for it.

And I hate Shakespeare.

Skydiver
December 17th, 2007, 04:27 AM
prods this REMOTELY back on topic

Uber
December 17th, 2007, 09:17 AM
prods this REMOTELY back on topicOkay...I'll give it a go.

Erm...well...let's see. Carter LOVES Shakespeare and LOTR but isn't a fan of CSI: Miami and I'm REALLY disappointed she hasn't talked about any of them while on Atlantis!!!!

*pats self on back for brilliant segue to the topic at hand*

Jumper_One
December 17th, 2007, 09:28 AM
Okay...I'll give it a go.

Erm...well...let's see. Carter LOVES Shakespeare and LOTR

yay


but isn't a fan of CSI: Miami

hm what about CSI:NY?


and I'm REALLY disappointed she hasn't talked about any of them while on Atlantis!!!!

yeah what's up with that?


*pats self on back for brilliant segue to the topic at hand*

haha well done! :)

bluealien
December 17th, 2007, 10:01 AM
WE haven't seen Carter in command before. YOU have seen Carter in command. She may have been fantastic on SG-1. I don't know or care, since that's not a show I watch. This is Atlantis. She needs to be a commander on Atlantis. So far, I've seen no command presence, not even much self-confidence or intelligence. If she's so familiar with command, I fail to see why she comes off as so weak and ill-at-ease in a command position.

I see her completely the opposite and to me she definitely has command presence and where do you get that she is not intelligent!. She is everything I wanted the leader of Atlantis to be. She is professional and has a great dynamic with Sheppard. They had an immediate respect for each other and they both have military experience, so already they understand each other more than Sheppard and Weir ever seemed to. That was my biggest problem with Weir, she never IMO ever showed any command presence and always seemed uncertain of herself to the point of worrying like a mother hen. So far I havn't seen any uncertaintly from Carter and she has impressed me in the role in the short time she has been in it more than Weir did in three seasons. Sam and John work well together, while Sheppard and Weir seemed to be pulling in different directions.



Carter is a mirror reflection of Keller and her insecurity as the CMO. Only Keller is not supposed to have had a leadership role before. They two of them together is beyond annoying. What is this, training ground Atlantis?


I won't go into what I think of Keller here but again I never felt Carter to be insecure. She has only been in the role a few weeks and has had huge decisions to make, but she came across confident and in control and I don't think Weir would have reacted the way Carter did in the Seer. She used her gut instinct and military expertise to make a call and it was the right one. Would Weir have done the same, I don't think so. It's not enough just to have an easy going relationship with your co-leader, its about making the right and informed decisions and so far Carter has done a good job and I think she will get better and better. As to Carter not being in a commanding role before, you could say exactly the same of Weir. Not only was she not in a leadership role but she had no military experience, and her negotiating skills were never used much at all, so she was just as untrained if you like as Carter. But Carter has the experience to deal with the life and death situations which can ultimately only benefit Atlantis.

Killdeer
December 17th, 2007, 10:10 AM
I don't think Weir would have reacted the way Carter did in the Seer. She used her gut instinct and military expertise to make a call and it was the right one. Would Weir have done the same, I don't think so.

On this I disagree. I think Elizabeth would have done exactly the same thing, judging from how she's handled matters over the last three seasons.


Sam and John work well together, while Sheppard and Weir seemed to be pulling in different directions.

Yes they work well together, too well. I'm sorry, but I find that incredibly boring, and this more subdued version of Shep seems OOC. I thought Sheppard and Weir's occasional disagreements made the show more interesting, and having to have two people with different backgrounds find a way to work together made for a more interesting setup.

Uber
December 17th, 2007, 10:38 AM
On this I disagree. I think Elizabeth would have done exactly the same thing, judging from how she's handled matters over the last three seasons.Possibly so...but would Shep have been as receptive or would he have told her this is a military matter and it's his call like he's done in the past??


Yes they work well together, too well. I'm sorry, but I find that incredibly boring, and this more subdued version of Shep seems OOC. I thought Sheppard and Weir's occasional disagreements made the show more interesting, and having to have two people with different backgrounds find a way to work together made for a more interesting setup.I like the rapport building between Shep and Carter but I too hope that there will be cause for some tension between them.

Killdeer
December 17th, 2007, 10:40 AM
Possibly so...but would Shep have been as receptive or would he have told her this is a military matter and it's his call like he's done in the past??


It wouldn't have mattered - if they'd stopped to argue about it, the ships would have fired on each other by the time they'd settled it, and it would be a moot point. And I think Shep would have stopped, no matter who yelled stop. It could have been Rodney - it could have Zelenka for that matter. He didn't stop just because it was Sam saying it. They could see what was going on and he couldn't, so if one of them yelled at him to stop, he's going to stop and find out what's going on.

Uber
December 17th, 2007, 10:54 AM
It wouldn't have mattered - if they'd stopped to argue about it, the ships would have fired on each other by the time they'd settled it, and it would be a moot point. And I think Shep would have stopped, no matter who yelled stop. It could have been Rodney - it could have Zelenka for that matter. He didn't stop just because it was Sam saying it. They could see what was going on and he couldn't, so if one of them yelled at him to stop, he's going to stop and find out what's going on.That's a possible interpretation...not so sure of it though. Frankly I'm not a thousand percent certain that Weir would have told him to hold up to begin with. On what basis would she have told him to wait? On what authority? Carter's gut instinct prodded her to order Shep to not fire and he was required to obey her order. Weir typically trusted his instinct in military matters and I feel probably wouldn't have said anything.

Of course it's all speculation though. :)

I do hope though that there will be cause for Shep and Carter to have some major falling out at some point though.

bluealien
December 17th, 2007, 10:59 AM
I don't. You don't have to like something to admire the quality. I hate LOTR I. Jackson with this film pushed the cinema industry to another level. I prefer SGA to BSG but most of the characters in BSG seem better developed and better written.


The whole subject of good or bad writing is very subjective. I have seen comments around here about how bad the writing was just because someone didnt like the storyline and others raving about how good the writing was when they did., so who is right?. Someones bad writing is someone else's great writing. I hate BSG and the writing won't change that. They could be spouting shakespeare, or we could know their characters inside and out, and I would most likely still hate the show because it's not how I want to see the characters depicted. I don't like the overall theme of the characters and find most of them totally annoying, so I guess it's the way they are written and not the quality of writing. But in SGA I like the overall theme of the stories and the style of writing. It may not be as deep or profound as I would like at times, but maybe if they went that route I would hate it as much as I hate BSG.. so again writing is subjective to me because usually people will interpret it differently or are looking for totally different things from a show.

I've heard so often about the writing being bad for Weir and that's why she didnt appeal to some and if given better writing she would be so much better. This may be true to a small degree, as again it depends on what you like and what you want from the character. There are times that Weir was written inconsistantly but so was Sheppard but it didn't effect my overall enjoyment of his character. It wasn't just the occasional bad writing that Weir got that put me off her character, but what she did with it. I was never drawn to Torri's take on the character and for me writing had really nothing to do with it. I didn't enjoy her character anymore in Lifeline or Adrift or TMC but yet the writing was deemed to be better for her in those eps. Writing will always be commented on and standards questioned and at times possibly it's justified but most of the time I feel it's blamed for no more than, " the writers didn't write it the way I wanted it written, so that automatically makes it bad.




Helena Cain, was not a main character, and she was written in such a way that she shadows most major characters in SGA (Teyla, Ronon, Lorne, Zelenka, etc). I like Chaucer more than Shakespeare but when one talks about Macbeth, King Lear, Hamlet, one cannot ignore the quality and the genius Shakespeare had. So this whole, write something I like does not work. So PG, I can feel the smell all the way here....

Again it all depends what you like, if Shakespeare is what you like then anything else will pale in comparison. We all have different expectations and different standards, and while someone thinks certain writing is quality, it may be crap to another. I'm not looking for Shakespeare and Shakespeare doesn't float my boat anyway. But again we all have different preferences, but it doesn't necessarily mean one is better than the other, it just means that we prefer one over the other. I watch SGA to be entertained and the writing fits in with the type of show I want to see, and for the most part it depicts the characters the way I want to see them. I will never get them written exactly the way I would like the entire time, and I don't expect them to be. But I either like what they do with the writing and how they portray the character or I don't, it's as simple as that.
I've seen some complaints that AT has had similar writing to Torri so why change the character but again it's what you do with the writing and so far I much prefer what AT has done with it. She brings the character to life and makes her more believable to me than Torri ever did. I didn't like Torri's take on Weir, and she never sold me on the charcter, so it's not just the writing that we can blame, it's also personal preference. At the end of the day it can be about which portrayal you prefere, and which character you are drawn to, writing can play a part of course but like in BSG it doesn't always make you enjoy the show any better.

Killdeer
December 17th, 2007, 11:00 AM
Frankly I'm not a thousand percent certain that Weir would have told him to hold up to begin with. On what basis would she have told him to wait? On what authority? Carter's gut instinct prodded her to order Shep to not fire and he was required to obey her order. Weir typically trusted his instinct in military matters and I feel probably wouldn't have said anything.

On that, we'll have to agree to disagree. Elizabeth had intuition as much as Sam does - it might not be military based - but I could easily see her making the same call. Especially since Sam wasn't using her military background to make her decision - if she were, she would have said to fire. She herself said she just went with a hunch.

But that's me - if you don't see it from the same perspective, that's fine. :)

Uber
December 17th, 2007, 11:30 AM
On that, we'll have to agree to disagree. Elizabeth had intuition as much as Sam does - it might not be military based - but I could easily see her making the same call. Especially since Sam wasn't using her military background to make her decision - if she were, she would have said to fire. She herself said she just went with a hunch.

But that's me - if you don't see it from the same perspective, that's fine. :)Actually she admitted that she didn't know whether or not the Wraith would fire on them...which suggests strongly that she was relying on her gut instinct sharply honed from her experience to prod her to order Shep not to fire. And Shep had to listen to her...he couldn't ignore her and do what he wanted like I think he would have to Weir, had she commented, which I'm not sure she would have.

LOL You're right...lots o' suppositions there too. No worries...I can do the agree to disagree with the best of 'em. :sam43:

Jumper_One
December 17th, 2007, 11:45 AM
On that, we'll have to agree to disagree. Elizabeth had intuition as much as Sam does - it might not be military based - but I could easily see her making the same call.

true. however Carter was able to order Shep not to fire, Weir couldn't have done that


Especially since Sam wasn't using her military background to make her decision -

she wasn't? how so?


if she were, she would have said to fire.

really? how do you know?


She herself said she just went with a hunch.

correct, a hunch that was extremely influenced by her military and non-military experience


But that's me - if you don't see it from the same perspective, that's fine. :)

ok :)

Cautious Explorer
December 17th, 2007, 03:11 PM
I see her completely the opposite and to me she definitely has command presence and where do you get that she is not intelligent!.
Where do I get that she isn't intelligent? Observation. I know she's supposed to be intelligent. TPTB have said she's intelligent. But personally, I haven't seen much sign of it. That's not to say she isn't an intelligent scientist. But as a leader, I'm not seeing much skill so far.


She is everything I wanted the leader of Atlantis to be. She is professional and has a great dynamic with Sheppard. They had an immediate respect for each other and they both have military experience, so already they understand each other more than Sheppard and Weir ever seemed to.
I'm at a loss as to where you're seeing this "great dynamic" between Sheppard and Carter. She's his boss and outranks him. I see him being polite. And I don't know why you assume Sheppard immediately respects her because she has military experience. That never stopped him from having issues with Caldwell or Everett. I think it's just because she's a fairly innocuous presence. She's barely there enough for Sheppard to take issue with anything.


That was my biggest problem with Weir, she never IMO ever showed any command presence and always seemed uncertain of herself to the point of worrying like a mother hen. So far I havn't seen any uncertaintly from Carter and she has impressed me in the role in the short time she has been in it more than Weir did in three seasons. Sam and John work well together, while Sheppard and Weir seemed to be pulling in different directions.

LOL You're issues with Weir are exactly what I hate about Carter. Except for the mother hen attitude. Carter just seems too removed from everyone to appear that way. I just wish Carter could exhibit some warmth or charisma - something.



I won't go into what I think of Keller here but again I never felt Carter to be insecure. She has only been in the role a few weeks and has had huge decisions to make, but she came across confident and in control and I don't think Weir would have reacted the way Carter did in the Seer. She used her gut instinct and military expertise to make a call and it was the right one.

Carter was indecisive and nervous in the Seer. She let Woolsey upset her to the point of yelling at him to "shut up". She confessed to Woolsey that she had no reason for making the call she did. I think it's a little optimistic to say her military experience played any part at all. Actually, I think she lucked out. Rather than her indecision leading to catastrophe, it ended up giving the Wraith time to fire on each other.



Would Weir have done the same, I don't think so. It's not enough just to have an easy going relationship with your co-leader, its about making the right and informed decisions and so far Carter has done a good job and I think she will get better and better.

I think it's more about having an easy-going relationship with your second in command, while being indecisive and underconfident. I have yet to see her make a great command decision. I hope she gets better and better. IMO she couldn't get much worse.



As to Carter not being in a commanding role before, you could say exactly the same of Weir. Not only was she not in a leadership role but she had no military experience, and her negotiating skills were never used much at all, so she was just as untrained if you like as Carter. But Carter has the experience to deal with the life and death situations which can ultimately only benefit Atlantis.

Weir was selected for an exploratory mission that turned out differently than anyone had anticipated. Carter was deliberately selected for the known situation in Pegasus. Presumably her leadership abilities were taken into consideration. Majorsal, whose post I originally responded to, stated that Carter has had plenty of command experience. So far, I'm not seeing this expertise being put to use. I wouldn't expect someone experienced at leading to appear so hesitant, doubtful and indecisive as Carter has shown to be. Would anyone accept that behaviour in a male commander?


On this I disagree. I think Elizabeth would have done exactly the same thing, judging from how she's handled matters over the last three seasons.



Yes they work well together, too well. I'm sorry, but I find that incredibly boring, and this more subdued version of Shep seems OOC. I thought Sheppard and Weir's occasional disagreements made the show more interesting, and having to have two people with different backgrounds find a way to work together made for a more interesting setup.

I agree. Carter isn't doing anything that Weir couldn't do. And she's doing it with a lot less warmth and character.

I don't understand why we aren't seeing any conflict between Sheppard and Carter. I don't enjoy this new version of Sheppard who's so happy to take orders. He's far too docile. Carter desperately needs to have conflict with someone. She's far too boring the way she's being portrayed right now.

justhere1971
December 17th, 2007, 03:21 PM
Where do I get that she isn't intelligent? Observation. I know she's supposed to be intelligent. TPTB have said she's intelligent. But personally, I haven't seen much sign of it. That's not to say she isn't an intelligent scientist. But as a leader, I'm not seeing much skill so far.

I'm at a loss as to where you're seeing this "great dynamic" between Sheppard and Carter. She's his boss and outranks him. I see him being polite. And I don't know why you assume Sheppard immediately respects her because she has military experience. That never stopped him from having issues with Caldwell or Everett. I think it's just because she's a fairly innocuous presence. She's barely there enough for Sheppard to take issue with anything.


LOL You're issues with Weir are exactly what I hate about Carter. Except for the mother hen attitude. Carter just seems too removed from everyone to appear that way. I just wish Carter could exhibit some warmth or charisma - something.



Carter was indecisive and nervous in the Seer. She let Woolsey upset her to the point of yelling at him to "shut up". She confessed to Woolsey that she had no reason for making the call she did. I think it's a little optimistic to say her military experience played any part at all. Actually, I think she lucked out. Rather than her indecision leading to catastrophe, it ended up giving the Wraith time to fire on each other.



I think it's more about having an easy-going relationship with your second in command, while being indecisive and underconfident. I have yet to see her make a great command decision. I hope she gets better and better. IMO she couldn't get much worse.



Weir was selected for an exploratory mission that turned out differently than anyone had anticipated. Carter was deliberately selected for the known situation in Pegasus. Presumably her leadership abilities were taken into consideration. Majorsal, whose post I originally responded to, stated that Carter has had plenty of command experience. So far, I'm not seeing this expertise being put to use. I wouldn't expect someone experienced at leading to appear so hesitant, doubtful and indecisive as Carter has shown to be. Would anyone accept that behaviour in a male commander?



I agree. Carter isn't doing anything that Weir couldn't do. And she's doing it with a lot less warmth and character.

I don't understand why we aren't seeing any conflict between Sheppard and Carter. I don't enjoy this new version of Sheppard who's so happy to take orders. He's far too docile. Carter desperately needs to have conflict with someone. She's far too boring the way she's being portrayed right now.

Maybe he's just stopped caring? ITA about Weir. She'd have handled it just the same way, only with better chemistry with the team. The lines are being written for her, yet it's Carter who's delivering them.

alyssa
December 17th, 2007, 03:29 PM
Maybe he's just stopped caring? ITA about Weir. She'd have handled it just the same way, only with better chemistry with the team. The lines are being written for her, yet it's Carter who's delivering them.

Yeah, funny that. I've seen that a lot this season. It makes me wonder whether the issue was more them wanting to work with Amanda, as opposed to working with Carter.

RealmOfX
December 17th, 2007, 03:46 PM
<snip>
I don't understand why we aren't seeing any conflict between Sheppard and Carter. I don't enjoy this new version of Sheppard who's so happy to take orders. He's far too docile. Carter desperately needs to have conflict with someone. She's far too boring the way she's being portrayed right now.

I've heard this opinion expressed before but what logical reason is there for conflict between Shep & Carter at this point in time?? The way I see it there is none.

A new commander is nothing new for career military so what logical reason would you have for conflict between the two at this stage? Do you want Shep to be totally unprofessional and have problems just because Carter isn't Weir??





I've gotta laugh at all the "she's too boring" and "she's just delivering Weir's lines" garbage from certain quarters or "she's hardly there". Seems to me some people got exactly what they asked for and are now complaining because they got it ;)

justhere1971
December 17th, 2007, 03:56 PM
I've heard this opinion expressed before but what logical reason is there for conflict between Shep & Carter at this point in time?? The way I see it there is none.

A new commander is nothing new for career military so what logical reason would you have for conflict between the two at this stage? Do you want Shep to be totally unprofessional and have problems just because Carter isn't Weir??

I've gotta laugh at all the "she's too boring" and "she's just delivering Weir's lines" garbage from certain quarters or "she's hardly there". Seems to me some people got exactly what they asked for and are now complaining because they got it ;)

No one is asking for conflict for conflict's sake. It's logical to think, once a new boss is in place, there will be some adjustment period, regardless of the situation. Where have we seen that really? Ten episodes in, and we've seen them sitting down eating meal.
Have you watched the past three seasons of SGA? Or is this your first year? If it is, I understand your misconception at expecting Shep to just roll over and have Carter pet his belly. He excels in mild conflict. That's his MO. In my mind that's him feeling his leader out. Learning how they work, so he can better work with them.

As for certain quarters getting exactly what they asked for, I am confused. Are you trying to say the people who like Carter got a paler version of Carter, yet they should be happy because well it's her? Or is it that the Weir fan's should just shut up and enjoy the lines, in the blond model?

Cautious Explorer
December 17th, 2007, 04:00 PM
I've heard this opinion expressed before but what logical reason is there for conflict between Shep & Carter at this point in time?? The way I see it there is none.

A new commander is nothing new for career military so what logical reason would you have for conflict between the two at this stage? Do you want Shep to be totally unprofessional and have problems just because Carter isn't Weir??

Conflict is not the same thing as pouting because there's a new commander. I don't want to see that. As I said, Sheppard isn't Sheppard around Carter. He's the dutiful 2nd in command who happily follows Carter's orders. They're completely different types of people who ought to have different pov's now and then. It's not just Sheppard either. Carter hasn't had a difference of opinion with anyone except Woolsey.




I've gotta laugh at all the "she's too boring" and "she's just delivering Weir's lines" garbage from certain quarters or "she's hardly there". Seems to me some people got exactly what they asked for and are now complaining because they got it ;)

I wasn't a huge Weir fan before Carter arrived. I'm disappointed that an interesting new character wasn't introduced to fill the leadership role. While it is more pleasant when Carter isn't featured IMO, there still needs to be someone filling the leader's role. There's a big hole where a leader out to be.

People asked for Carter to come and do nothing? I asked for Carter not to come at all. If she has to be there, she should at least be somewhat interesting. And interesting, doesn't mean hand her a gun and send her on missions. I'm not asking for that either. Let her be a decent commander with minimal screen time. A little bit here and there each episode would make more sense for the story than what they're doing now.

justhere1971
December 17th, 2007, 04:05 PM
Conflict is not the same thing as pouting because there's a new commander. I don't want to see that. As I said, Sheppard isn't Sheppard around Carter. He's the dutiful 2nd in command who happily follows Carter's orders. They're completely different types of people who ought to have different pov's now and then. It's not just Sheppard either. Carter hasn't had a difference of opinion with anyone except Woolsey.

I wasn't a huge Weir fan before Carter arrived. I'm disappointed that an interesting new character wasn't introduced to fill the leadership role. While it is more pleasant when Carter isn't featured IMO, there still needs to be someone filling the leader's role. There's a big hole where a leader out to be.

People asked for Carter to come and do nothing? I asked for Carter not to come at all. If she has to be there, she should at least be somewhat interesting. And interesting, doesn't mean hand her a gun and send her on missions. I'm not asking for that either. Let her be a decent commander with minimal screen time. A little bit here and there each episode would make more sense for the story than what they're doing now.

Oh you mean actually show the fact they are communicating and building up a working relationship, as opposed to "oh wow! we're best buds, where should we go get a drink now?" Nahhhhhh, who needs that?

Jumper_One
December 17th, 2007, 04:14 PM
Let her be a decent commander with minimal screen time.

um you want Carter to be a good commander with minimal screen time? how much have we seen of her so far? ;)


A little bit here and there each episode would make more sense for the story than what they're doing now.

haha you're kidding right? people are already screaming how much we're seeing of her, can you imagine if she'd been in every ep so far (which btw wouldn't have made sense)


Oh you mean actually show the fact they are communicating and building up a working relationship, as opposed to "oh wow! we're best buds, where should we go get a drink now?" Nahhhhhh, who needs that?

come on if we'd seen Carter, Shep and everybody else chat and have fun you'd be complaining that there wasn't enough action or enough focus on the actual team or whatever

Cautious Explorer
December 17th, 2007, 04:16 PM
Oh you mean actually show the fact they are communicating and building up a working relationship, as opposed to "oh wow! we're best buds, where should we go get a drink now?" Nahhhhhh, who needs that?

I think that would be too much effort. Besides, they already did that in Reunion: introduction, conflict, resolution and bonding all in one easy episode. ;)

justhere1971
December 17th, 2007, 04:24 PM
um you want Carter to be a good commander with minimal screen time? how much have we seen of her so far? ;)

haha you're kidding right? people are already screaming how much we're seeing of her, can you imagine if she'd been in every ep so far (which btw wouldn't have made sense)

come on if we'd seen Carter, Shep and everybody else chat and have fun you'd be complaining that there wasn't enough action or enough focus on the actual team or whatever

I don't know which thread you've been visiting, but I have yet to hear some one screaming about too much screen time for Carter. I am not a fan of her on SGA - let me just be clear on that. I do not know if the second half of S4 will change that (I am hearing it will), but as of right now - no.

You do not need a backyard bbq or in their case an Atantis canoe ride w/ marshmellow roasting to show that they are building a working relationship. Communication alone would be one way. At least that's the way it works in the part of the world where I live in.

justhere1971
December 17th, 2007, 04:25 PM
I think that would be too much effort. Besides, they already did that in Reunion: introduction, conflict, resolution and bonding all in one easy episode. ;)

A very nice & tidy package indeed. :tealc:

Jumper_One
December 17th, 2007, 04:28 PM
No, I wouldn't. I thought Carter's introduction was horrible. Her character was a complete mish-mash. I'm complaining because they did do it that way. Should they have plopped her in the city with no introduction at all? Why not? It couldn't have been any worse that what they did to her character in Reunion. IMO of course.

well you know TBTB can't please every single fan. but it's pretty strange when people don't wanna see Carter and after the mid season finale a lot of people (especially the antis - no I did not call you an anti!) are complaining how little we've seen of her. if you don't like her introduction that's fine, it's your opinion. however there are others who have a different opinion now matter what TBTB do

Jumper_One
December 17th, 2007, 04:34 PM
I don't know which thread you've been visiting, but I have yet to hear some one screaming about too much screen time for Carter. I am not a fan of her on SGA - let me just be clear on that. I do not know if the second half of S4 will change that (I am hearing it will), but as of right now - no.

well read some anti threads and you'll see how they see Carter so far. yes the second half will change that


You do not need a backyard bbq or in their case an Atantis canoe ride w/ marshmellow roasting to show that they are building a working relationship. Communication alone would be one way. At least that's the way it works in the part of the world where I live in.

ok then I'm sry but you gotta understand that there are a lot of people who complain either way. we see a lot of action, those guys and gals say we haven't seen much characters. if we see a lot of character development they will scream again that it's too much

Uber
December 17th, 2007, 04:47 PM
Yeah, funny that. I've seen that a lot this season. It makes me wonder whether the issue was more them wanting to work with Amanda, as opposed to working with Carter.Carter and Weir are both strong, compassionate, wise woman who put their teams and their mission ahead of themselves. It's completely reasonable that there'd be some crossover in dialog. That being said, Carter is not Liz. Liz, to my knowledge, never has organized and led a rescue operation...nor could she order Sheppard around in military matters. I expect that now that Carter has gone through her own personal gauntlet in The Seer, that we'll see her a lot less unsure of herself and more comfortable in her own skin...which she wasn't quite as much at first, and by design.

Cautious Explorer
December 17th, 2007, 04:55 PM
well you know TBTB can't please every single fan. but it's pretty strange when people don't wanna see Carter and after the mid season finale a lot of people (especially the antis - no I did not call you an anti!) are complaining how little we've seen of her. if you don't like her introduction that's fine, it's your opinion. however there are others who have a different opinion now matter what TBTB do

It's not that I want to see Carter, especially not the way she's being portrayed. But there does need to be a leader on Atlantis. If we're stuck with Carter then she should be it. And asking for a leader is not the same as asking for more screen time for Carter. I'm perfectly fine with her showing up for just a few minutes to authorize a mission or ordering Chuck to dial the gate address. A consistent presence would be better than a void alternating with choppy Carter scenes inserted into an episode.

I'm one of those people who didn't think I would miss Weir all that much as long as Sheppard's team was still intact. TMC showed me how much Weir contributed to the Atlantis dynamic and how badly Carter is meshing with the expedition. That's what I've seen commented on the most. The chemistry was much better with Weir than with Carter. It's not so much Carter that some people are missing, but the leadership role that is missing.

How about we have a discussion without bringing up the pro and anti issue?

Jumper_One
December 17th, 2007, 05:08 PM
How about we have a discussion without bringing up the pro and anti issue?

I'd like that :)


It's not that I want to see Carter, especially not the way she's being portrayed. But there does need to be a leader on Atlantis. If we're stuck with Carter then she should be it.

let's just say we'll probably see more of her in s5


And asking for a leader is not the same as asking for more screen time for Carter.

I didn't say it was


I'm perfectly fine with her showing up for just a few minutes to authorize a mission or ordering Chuck to dial the gate address. A consistent presence would be better than a void alternating with choppy Carter scenes inserted into an episode.

I would agree with you but after seeing Weir the last view years I'm not sure anymore. don't get me wrong I like Weir and I hope we'll see her again. however the last 3 season there were a lot of eps with her not doing anything, literally. the only thing she did say in those eps were ie 'welcome home' or 'good luck'. now I really don't need someone to tell that to Shep over and over again which is why I think it's nice how Carter has been introduced over the last 10 eps. she's only been there when she needed to be there, offering solutions, being 'the man' or going off world rescuing team members


I'm one of those people who didn't think I would miss Weir all that much as long as Sheppard's team was still intact. TMC showed me how much Weir contributed to the Atlantis dynamic and how badly Carter is meshing with the expedition. That's what I've seen commented on the most. The chemistry was much better with Weir than with Carter. It's not so much Carter that some people are missing, but the leadership role that is missing.

well I think it's a little harsh to comment on Carter' interactions with the team or her leadership after only 10 eps with 3 heavy Carter eps. people should give her a little more time to prove herself which I hope will be in the second half. Weir had 3 years to develop her relationship with the others, and she was there from the start that's always a big bonus

Avenger
December 17th, 2007, 05:14 PM
I agree completely. She wasn't the leader of Atlantis until halfway through the first half of the season. She's going to be in a lot more in the second half, and given the way Carter has been so far in the episodes where she was in command, I'm not worried about the leadership in the second half of the season.

majorsal
December 17th, 2007, 05:23 PM
I thought she was all over the board in Reunion. Tearful with Tealc, hesitant coming through the gate, stiff in her introduction to the staff, then she threatens Ronon, changes her mind and decides to go on a rescue mission she should have sent someone else on. No sign of good leadership there. In Doppleganger, she talked about her past experiences, gave a trite, flat emotionless address about Heighmeyer's death and needed reassurance from Keller. In the Seer, she's making faces when Keller asks about her intentions towards the seer, is totally indecisive on the balcony, and is so flustered she yells "shut up" at the IOA representative. Atlantis needs a commander that behaves like a commander.

I know she's supposed to have all these great qualifications from SG-1, but from what I've seen so far she's not prepared to do the job. I don't think they would have written a male commander this way: timid, unsure,
indecisive and in need of the expedition's approval. There's no need for the leader to be a tyrant, but at least a little command presence would not be misplaced.

i'm sorry, but the only response i have to this is :p.

i can't take any of this seriously because you just dislike this character. that's the way i see it.



sally :samanime24:

Cautious Explorer
December 17th, 2007, 05:29 PM
I would agree with you but after seeing Weir the last view years I'm not sure anymore. don't get me wrong I like Weir and I hope we'll see her again. however the last 3 season there were a lot of eps with her not doing anything, literally. the only thing she did say in those eps were ie 'welcome home' or 'good luck'. now I really don't need someone to tell that to Shep over and over again which is why I think it's nice how Carter has been introduced over the last 10 eps. she's only been there when she needed to be there, offering solutions, being 'the man' or going off world rescuing team members

I'd rather have a consistent command presence. As to her being there when needed, I kind of think the opposite. She's been pushed in at times where she isn't needed and then completely missing when it seems a natural place for the leader to be at least present. Travelers, Missing, Miller's Crossing are episodes where I think at least a comment from the leader was needed. Doppleganger and Reunion had scenes where her presence was forced IMO.


Well I think it's a little harsh to comment on Carter' interactions with the team or her leadership after only 10 eps with 3 heavy Carter eps. people should give her a little more time to prove herself which I hope will be in the second half. Weir had 3 years to develop her relationship with the others, and she was there from the start that's always a big bonus

We're half way through the season. If she doesn't fit by now, I don't see it happening. It's unfortunate that TPTB selected an actress that wasn't available to actually act the part. Maybe it would have been easier to integrate her otherwise. But even if she had been there more often, you just can't force chemistry. So far I haven't seen Carter have good chemistry with anyone. I don't think she fits with the rest of the cast.

Cautious Explorer
December 17th, 2007, 05:33 PM
i'm sorry, but the only response i have to this is :p.

i can't take any of this seriously because you just dislike this character. that's the way i see it.



sally :samanime24:

Then I guess I don't need to take you seriously because you like the character so much. ;)

Jumper_One
December 17th, 2007, 05:37 PM
I'd rather have a consistent command presence. As to her being there when needed, I kind of think the opposite. She's been pushed in at times where she isn't needed and then completely missing when it seems a natural place for the leader to be at least present. Travelers, Missing, Miller's Crossing are episodes where I think at least a comment from the leader was needed. Doppleganger and Reunion had scenes where her presence was forced IMO.

Travelers was a very Shep heavy ep, even the rest of the team wasn't seen much, Missing didn't need Carter since everything took place on the planet, and MC was an Earth ep. would I've liked to hear from Carter or see her? yes of course but I'd rather see more of her in eps she actually does something than just see her say 'good luck on Earth John, I hope you find your sister Rodney'. Doppelganger needed her, Carter could show how she managed the new command and help save Rodney and everybody else due to her past experience with SG-1. Reunion was a good introduction of her character imo



I think it's a little harsh to comment on Carter' interactions with the team or her leadership after only 10 eps with 3 heavy Carter eps. people should give her a little more time to prove herself which I hope will be in the second half. Weir had 3 years to develop her relationship with the others, and she was there from the start that's always a big bonus

We're half way through the season. If she doesn't fit by now, I don't see it happeining. It's unfortunate that TPTB selected an actress that wasn't available to actually act the part. Maybe it would have been easier to integrate her otherwise. But even if she had been there more often, you just can't force chemistry. So far I haven't seen Carter have good chemistry with anyone. I don't think she fits with the rest of the cast.

have you watched SG-1? if you have did you like the way Mitchell was introduced in s9? because it pretty much is the exact opposite of what TBTB did with Carter. the rest is pretty much your opinion and I simply disagree

majorsal
December 17th, 2007, 05:48 PM
have you watched SG-1? if you have did you like the way Mitchell was introduced in s9? because it pretty much is the exact opposite of what TBTB did with Carter. the rest is pretty much your opinion and I simply disagree

i honestly, truly think the ptb were trying very hard not to make the same mitchell-vala mistakes with bringing sam over to atlantis. for me, i'd love to see a whole lot more of sam, but i totally understand why they've handled her the way they have. also of note, amanda was filming 2 sg1 movies and filming her internet show sanctually, all at the same time as atlantis filming. her time on screen has been limited.

so with that in mind, we just need to give it time to fairly judge sam's part in the atlantis saga.



sally :)

Jumper_One
December 17th, 2007, 06:03 PM
i honestly, truly think the ptb were trying very hard not to make the same mitchell-vala mistakes with bringing sam over to atlantis. for me, i'd love to see a whole lot more of sam, but i totally understand why they've handled her the way they have. also of note, amanda was filming 2 sg1 movies and filming her internet show sanctually, all at the same time as atlantis filming. her time on screen has been limited.

so with that in mind, we just need to give it time to fairly judge sam's part in the atlantis saga.



sally :)

well said majorsal! AT had been busy with SGA, AoT, Continuum and Sanctuary. I don't know if JM and PM were responsible for Mitchell's introduction, I think it was more RCC. but I really believe TBTB (of Atlantis) have learned from that and tried to make the introduction of Sam very different. I'd love to see more of her too but this isn't the same character we saw for the past 10 years, it's another position and she must act accordingly. I do however pretty much look forward to the back half because the plots are gonna be great imo and we'll see a lot more of Sam (8/10 eps) :)