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View Full Version : Is it logical for Carter to go off-world?



cavalierlwt
October 13th, 2007, 07:55 AM
I can't wrap my head around Carter going off-world for anything except the a mission where she physically has to be there, ala Weir going on her last off-world mission, and that was a rare, in fact singular event.

There's no way she should have been on that mission to rescue Ronon. What's the purpose, what function did Carter serve there that some other soldier couldn't have performed? If the rescue team had been captured, who would have been in charge, Zalenka?

I think it's fine that Sam would give help in finding solutions, but I think she would be doing it from Atlantis. I know the TPTB want to give Carter a bigger role than Weir had, but it has to remain in the realm of reason.

AGateFan
October 13th, 2007, 08:23 AM
No it doesnt make sense for Carter or even Zelinka to go off world on that mission. But its TV and lots of time it didnt make sense when Weir, Hammond (although they tended to make these a bit more believable IMHO) Kirk, Picard, Sisko, Janeway or any other scifi command type does it. In fact I was pleaseantly suprised in Lifeline that they left Teyla behind to be in charge as such logic is often overlooked in TV.

FallenAngelII
October 13th, 2007, 08:40 AM
Of course it isn't. Especially not when the Tau'ri military presence consists of her and two random Red Shirts instead of her and Lorne at least.

Zelenka's appearance? I'm gonna make a thread about that.

Mattathias2.0
October 13th, 2007, 08:59 AM
It's not logical, but Weir did do it several times, most notably in Home, The Siege II, Inferno, Progeny, and Submersion (ok, last one not off-world - but still).

Granted, Carter is now the boss, but at least she has experience going off-world, including scientifically (like Reckoning), diplomatically (like Icon), and military (like loads of SG-1 episodes). I can't see her going off-world all the time, but certainly a little because of her experience.

FallenAngelII
October 13th, 2007, 09:10 AM
It's not logical, but Weir did do it several times, most notably in Home, The Siege II, Inferno, Progeny, and Submersion (ok, last one not off-world - but still).

Granted, Carter is now the boss, but at least she has experience going off-world, including scientifically (like Reckoning), diplomatically (like Icon), and military (like loads of SG-1 episodes). I can't see her going off-world all the time, but certainly a little because of her experience.
Those were logical though.

In "Home", they thought they could find a way back to Earth.
In "The Siege (Part II)", she returned to debrief the IOA on their command.
In "Inferno", well, I don't know, stupidity. Or the writers just wanted her there to have her negotiate about the warship.
In "Progeny", they thought they'd found living Ancients. Of course having Elizabeth along for First Contact was logical.
"Submersion" was just stupidity.

Not in one of these episodes did Elizabeth ever go off-world expecting to run into a military situation where her life would be on the line! The leader can go off-world. Just not deliberately into hostile situations! They're the leaders! What if Sam had been gunned down?! What would they do then?! If Sam and Zelenka had been captured as well, command would've befallen Lorne.

Ceebee
October 13th, 2007, 09:20 AM
I totally agree--it seemed to me totally illogical for Carter to go off world, especially so close to her just coming on board. I would have understood it better if Zelenka hadn't been there, seeing as they might have needed a scientist to figure out wraith gadgetry. But like you said, who would have been left to oversee Atlantis if something had happened to the teams? I'm sure Lorne would have been next up. All the other major players were off on this mission. I am all for a leader not being afraid to get down and dirty, but it just didn't seem like the time for her to do it, especially when there were so many other capable people involved already.

Mattathias2.0
October 13th, 2007, 09:36 AM
Those were logical though.

In "Home", they thought they could find a way back to Earth.
In "The Siege (Part II)", she returned to debrief the IOA on their command.
In "Inferno", well, I don't know, stupidity. Or the writers just wanted her there to have her negotiate about the warship.
In "Progeny", they thought they'd found living Ancients. Of course having Elizabeth along for First Contact was logical.
"Submersion" was just stupidity.

Not in one of these episodes did Elizabeth ever go off-world expecting to run into a military situation where her life would be on the line! The leader can go off-world. Just not deliberately into hostile situations! They're the leaders! What if Sam had been gunned down?! What would they do then?! If Sam and Zelenka had been captured as well, command would've befallen Lorne.

No, The Siege II was to negotiate for Nuclear Bombs from the Genii. The episode you are thinking of is No Man's Land.

Yes, 2 were not logical, which is my point.

FallenAngelII
October 13th, 2007, 09:44 AM
No, The Siege II was to negotiate for Nuclear Bombs from the Genii. The episode you are thinking of is No Man's Land.

Yes, 2 were not logical, which is my point.
Oh, yeah. But that was logical as well.

Let's see:
Inferno - She was to come and meet a people who'd found a very powerful power source in order to negotiate a trade for said power? Or something like that probably.
Submersion - Random ****. But it was safe.

In neither of these cases did Elizabeth put herself in a situation which she expected to be hostile! Because the leaders of great expeditions do not do that crap!

SylvreWolfe
October 13th, 2007, 09:48 AM
No, it isn't logical, nor is it military protocol for the base commander/ship's commander/etc etc to go off on missions.

silkie
October 13th, 2007, 09:50 AM
It's illogical! If she was killed in the rescue mission together with Shep, Teyla, Ronon, Mckay and Zelenka who would be left to lead Atlantis - Chuck, Keller or Katie Brown???

Heaven
October 13th, 2007, 09:58 AM
"Is it logical for Carter to go off-world?"

short answer - no
long answer - hell no!

stclare
October 13th, 2007, 10:00 AM
When I saw her join the rescue team my eyes rolled so hard I thought id be permantly damaged ;)

If her going was a necesity to the storyline ala no other scientest capable there etc then I could have suspended my disbelief, but no. Lorne would have been a much more suitable addition IMHO.

Logical thinking in the same sentence as TPTB is wishfull thinking is it not :p:p

perfesserkai
October 13th, 2007, 10:22 AM
While it's not totally logical for the base commander to go on a search & rescue mission like Carter did in this episode, think about it from the character's perspective. She's just stepped into a new command, and to some degree has to prove to those serving under her that she's going to support them.

Secondly, she had already been questioned by Ronan regarding her commitment to fighting the Wraith (albeit not in so many words). So you could look at this as a way for Carter to demonstrate to everyone that she is just as dedicated to their mission as Weir was.

Admittedly, the absence of Major Lorne was a mystery, but he could have been off on his own mission. Regardless, Carter was still the senior military officer in Atlantis, and probably has more field experience than most of the people there. So while it's not totally logical, it is understandable.

-kai

Dutch_Razor
October 13th, 2007, 10:23 AM
It's her first command of a base (or the second, anyway she doesn't have much experience), it's not logical but she doesn't really know yet who's good and who isn't, instead of risking someone else she decides to go herself.

2 redshirts instead of Lorne could be explained by having Lorne in command of Atlantis :)

stclare
October 13th, 2007, 10:38 AM
While it's not totally logical for the base commander to go on a search & rescue mission like Carter did in this episode, think about it from the character's perspective. She's just stepped into a new command, and to some degree has to prove to those serving under her that she's going to support them.

Secondly, she had already been questioned by Ronan regarding her commitment to fighting the Wraith (albeit not in so many words). So you could look at this as a way for Carter to demonstrate to everyone that she is just as dedicated to their mission as Weir was.

Admittedly, the absence of Major Lorne was a mystery, but he could have been off on his own mission. Regardless, Carter was still the senior military officer in Atlantis, and probably has more field experience than most of the people there. So while it's not totally logical, it is understandable.

-kai


I see what your saying but I disagree.

She can demonstrate her caperbilitys in the role she is in now, by making the decisons on who to send and trusting in her peoples capabilities rather than taking there place.
Weir would not have gone into a hostile situation such as this unless it was absolutley nesscesary. this in my opinion was not the case this time.

further down the line then maybe, but of the bat to go and do this after giving Ronan that bit about the IOA was weird, wouldnt the IOA want there new leader to remain on base? so you know they dont have to find another leader or worry about that kind of security risk.

perhaps this is the civilian / military difference in leadership?

FallenAngelII
October 13th, 2007, 10:51 AM
It's hardly a smart move as the leader of an operation to, on your first day (or at least first day with things to do) in said position, make a horribly stupid decision.

You don't demonstrate you're committed or that you're brave or whatever by jumping headfirst into battle. The only thing you're demonstrating is stupidity. What if she'd been fed on? What then?

marlinz360
October 13th, 2007, 10:54 AM
Well I think it is PERFECT

1. Carter is a Colonel not a civilian or a General.
2. She has the military experience
3. If something goes wrong, SGC or the IOA could send a replacement right away.
4. It would go against her personality.
:jack: :tealc::sam::daniel::hammond:

Xaeden
October 13th, 2007, 10:54 AM
I disagree with the person who said this wasn't the right time for such a mission. If ever there was a right time for her to lead a military operation (I'm not saying there is though) it would be now. The expedition just lost Weir. She was very beloved by all and it was a huge blow to everyone on Atlantis. Now just as a new person is coming to take her place, the most valuable and senior members of the expedition are captured off world. For moral purposes, her showing that she's going to proactively make sure not to leave them behind goes a long way - If Ronan can warm up to her after that anyone will. Meanwhile, she's new so her loss won't effect them greatly and if she didn't return they would just dial Earth and have orders on what to do right away. This isn't season 1 where the leadership had to be extra careful as a loss on that level could ruin the expedition and this isn't like real life where it takes time for a replacement to be sent - It would take Earth nothing to send a temporarily officer to take charge until those in the field could be rescued or if they're dead, until new leadership could be decided.

That said, I do think she is going to have to learn that she can't run off all the time, but it's her first real command so it's not all that surprising that she would do something like this. Someone has to tell her that she can't risk her life anymore as people here depend her more than those out in the field do. This is a big change for her and she is going to have to adjust.

So overall, I think her going off world worked. If she did it purposely as a way to introduce herself to everyone it wasn't an awful idea on her part as she needed something more than a speech to rally everyone behind her after such tragedy and change (sure it could've gone horribly wrong though). But if not it's in-character as she has yet to go through the same thing Jack did (learning that sometimes the best thing you can do is sit on your hands and wait while trusting the people you sent out there to do their jobs).

cavalierlwt
October 13th, 2007, 11:07 AM
She's a Colonel, officially put in charge of Atlantis, she doesn't have to 'prove' herself. Leaders are there to lead, not act as infantry--which is all she did on the rescue mission.

Maybe in medieval times it was important for leaders to physically fight on the frontline, to inspire troops, but not in this modern age.

I seriously hope the writers don't do this frequently or it's going to be very distracting. We know Sam can kick butt if she has to, but her job has changed. She'll get her chance, the next 7 or 8 times that the Genii manage to overrun Atlantis! :P

Leliana McKay
October 13th, 2007, 11:10 AM
I, too, think that her going offworld was wrong. She just arrived on Atlantis and like you said if they had all died that would have been quite problematic for the direct chain of command.
Even if she is military she should have stayed on Atlantis doing the job she just got assigned and not try to do her OLD job.

However, maybe we all still think too much about what Elizabeth would do. Sam is a very different character. Maybe her going offworld is normal for a military team leader (Hammond did go affworld a few times) or it will be explained in later episodes.

Xaeden
October 13th, 2007, 11:24 AM
This is not a military base. This is a scientific expedition with lots of civilians. To many of those people she has a lot to prove, (Ronan for example) but that's not the point of doing something like that. The point is to improve moral which a good commander should aim to do and I can certainly see quite a few real ones doing that by trying to show that they aren't going to sit on their horses at the back of battlefield, barking orders (I used this example for visual purposes only, but I am still talking about modern day commanders). I agree though that she needs to learn that she can't treat this like her old job and I think she will over time, but I like that she didn't come in and automatically do her job by the book. It's more in-character for her this way.

Also, the military commander of Atlantis has long since been running into dangerous situations. If Carter died it would be no different than if Sheppard died other than the fact that the scientists have nobody to take care of their paperwork. Atlantis is in no danger right now and they have a connection to Earth. All in all what's the worst thing that would happen if she died? They dial Earth to tell them that Carter has not returned and ask what to do? If this was a base on the edge of enemy territory and a commander went on a mission when an attack could happen at any time and it could not get help for quite some time I'd agree with you. But this is situation is nothing like that.

FallenAngelII
October 13th, 2007, 11:35 AM
This is not a military base. This is a scientific expedition with lots of civilians. To many of those people she has a lot to prove, (Ronan for example) but that's not the point of doing something like that. The point is to improve moral which a good commander should aim to do and I can certainly see quite a few real ones doing that by trying to show that they aren't going to sit on their horses at the back of battlefield, barking orders (I used this example for visual purposes only, but I am still talking about modern day commanders). I agree though that she needs to learn that she can't treat this like her old job and I think she will over time, but I like that she didn't come in and automatically do her job by the book. It's more in-character for her this way.
It doesn't improve morale to have the leader run into combat. It shows the starting of a pattern of bad decision-making, which lowers morale.


Also, the military commander of Atlantis has long since been running into dangerous situations. If Carter died it would be no different than if Sheppard died other than the fact that the scientists have nobody to take care of their paperwork. Atlantis is in no danger right now and they have a connection to Earth. All in all what's the worst thing that would happen if she died? They dial Earth to tell them that Carter has not returned and ask what to do? If this was a base on the edge of enemy territory and a commander went on a mission when an attack could happen at any time and it could not get help for quite some time I'd agree with you. But this is situation is nothing like that.
Yes, but he's the military commander. He's supposed to be on the front line.

People talk like leaders are easily replaced, like it only takes 5 minutes to gate a new leader there should Sam die. That's not how it works. The IOA has to choose a leader, which is an ardourous task. Then said leader has to pack and make everything in order to transfer.

What if Sam died in that facility and the Wraith attack tomorrow? What would they do then? Command would befall Lorne while Earth scrambled to gate in Jack, Landry and Hammond to collectively help out or whatever.

Xaeden
October 13th, 2007, 11:59 AM
It doesn't improve morale to have the leader run into combat. It shows the starting of a pattern of bad decision-making, which lowers morale.

To you or even to a higher ranking officer than Carter, but I don't see why you don't understand that someone in such a position would like their military leader to be someone who fights for them.



Yes, but he's the military commander. He's supposed to be on the front line.

And now Carter is the military commander - They simply put someone in charge who could take over both Sheppard's and Weir's job. Because she also does more paperwork she's less of the military commander than Sheppard was and isn't supposed to do his former job to her fullest? Mind you I agree with you that she shouldn't be running ops all the time, but I found your argument a bit odd. Weir's job was that of a glorified adminstrator. Having someone around to do that isn't always necessary. Having someone who has military experience so they can properly order the military around when an attack is possible is far more important than having someone around just to do Weir's job. Sheppard reported to her, but they also had an arrangement when she would leave the military calls to him since she knew Atlantis was far better off that way.


People talk like leaders are easily replaced, like it only takes 5 minutes to gate a new leader there should Sam die. That's not how it works. The IOA has to choose a leader, which is an ardourous task. Then said leader has to pack and make everything in order to transfer.

No, I said it would only take them a short amount of time to get a temporary military officer over there to take charge until a new leader was picked or until Carter was rescued/returned on her own. Obviously, picking a permenant leader is a lot of work and involves a lot of politics.


What if Sam died in that facility and the Wraith attack tomorrow? What would they do then? Command would befall Lorne while Earth scrambled to gate in Jack, Landry and Hammond to collectively help out or whatever.

The Wraith won't attack tomorrow since they cannot reach Atlantis tomorrow. It took them 3 weeks to get to Atlantis once they appeared on their long range sensors last time and obviously Atlantis would not pick a planet where the Wraith were closer than that. So, if someone who was captured revealed Atlantis' location the IOA would not have to scramble that quickly (I doubt they would even be allowed to scramble - Earth would just send another military officer to take charge of Atlantis' defense). Also, this isn't the first time Atlantis has been without Weir, Sheppard, and Mckay - They all left for Earth for about a month after the first attack. One would assume they held off on off world missions, but even so what if the Wraith happened to check back soon after and Telya or Lorne had to take charge? Given that Earth couldn't send help this situation is no big deal compared to that.

FallenAngelII
October 13th, 2007, 12:11 PM
To you or even to a higher ranking officer than Carter, but I don't see why you don't understand that someone in such a position would like their military leader to be someone who fights for them.
It's not her position. She's the leader of Atlantis. She was brought there to oversee the city, not to act as a soldier!



And now Carter is the military commander - They simply put someone in charge who could take over both Sheppard's and Weir's job. Because she does paperwork she's less of the military commander than Sheppard was and isn't supposed to do his job to her fullest?
Yes, because that's obviously what happened and because that'd be so logical. Why replace one leader when you can replace two leaders and pile up work on one single person instead of two? Sam was brought in to take over command of the city. John is still the military commander. It's all very wonky but as far as we know, John still is the military commander.


No, I said it would only take them a short amount of time to get a temporary military officer over there to take charge until a new leader was picked or until Carter was rescued/returned on her own. Obviously, picking a permenant leader is a lot of work and involves a lot of politics.
Yes, and obviously that's swell that they can randomly pick a temporary military leader. And he's gonna be very helpful when the Wraith attack right after Sam goes missing.


The Wraith won't attack tomorrow since they cannot reach Atlantis tomorrow. It took them 3 weeks to get to Atlantis once they appeared on their long range sensors last time and obviously Atlantis would not pick a planet where the Wraith were closer than that. So, if someone who was captured revealed Atlantis' location the IOA would not have to scramble that quickly (I doubt they would even be allowed to scramble - Earth would just send another military officer to take charge of Atlantis' defense). Also, this isn't the first time Atlantis has been without Weir, Sheppard, and Mckay - They all left for Earth for about a month after the first attack. One would assume they held off on off world missions, but even so what if the Wraith happened to check back soon after and Telya or Lorne had to take charge? Given that Earth couldn't send help this situation is no big deal compared to that.
We can't count on that. We can't say "Because the odds of something big happening are very low, the leader of the expedition should keep going off on military missions and staying at the front of line just for fun!".

Sam didn't even stay back! She was, most of the time, at the frontline. Which means that should they run into trouble, she'll be the one to go!

Xaeden
October 13th, 2007, 12:33 PM
Yes, because that's obviously what happened and because that'd be so logical. Why replace one leader when you can replace two leaders and pile up work on one single person instead of two? Sam was brought in to take over command of the city. John is still the military commander. It's all very wonky but as far as we know, John still is the military commander.

Many have long since wanted to leader of Atlantis to be a military officer who would be completely in charge on everything. The IOA fought that idea since they thought that having a military officer in charge would give too much power to the U.S. government and they wanted to keep control balanced. All this did was take a job that was originally split into two roles for political purposes (not pratical purposes) and put them back together. Laundry, Hammond, and O'neill long since had the same job in the SGC and they managed just fine - They were in charge of the whole base which included both military and scientific endevours and went into danger when necessary (Jack and the puddle jumper, Laundry and the Prior...). But they were older and settled into adminstrative roles so leading a team into battle wouldn't have been a smart idea.


Yes, and obviously that's swell that they can randomly pick a temporary military leader. And he's gonna be very helpful when the Wraith attack right after Sam goes missing.

They did it in the Seige. What makes you think they wouldn't do it again if Weir was still in charge and the Wraith attacked? More so what makes you think it won't be helpful since it worked last time?


We can't count on that. We can't say "Because the odds of something big happening are very low, the leader of the expedition should keep going off on military missions and staying at the front of line just for fun!".

It's not that the odds are low, it's that they are capable of preparing for such a situation this time where as last time they were not. Earth pretty much cut off Atlantis' leadership in a time where they could not send help should something happen. This time they will have plenty of warning and can get that help from Earth. However, if you want to talk about low odds, the odds are near impossible that the Wraith can get more ships together than Atlantis can destroy with drones while the Asurans are attacking them. Hypothetically though, even if they could it would not be in their best interests to waste a large amount of ships on another seige when they are being attack by an enemy that could very well wipe them out if left unchecked. Plus they don't know about Atlantis and before they could get anyone to talk yet another rescue mission would be attempted.


Sam didn't even stay back! She was, most of the time, at the frontline. Which means that should they run into trouble, she'll be the one to go!

She has long since been the lead SG scientist on Earth and the one whom which Earth needed to continue existing. Yet she ran off into battle at the front of the line all the time. How is she more important now than she was then? I agree that she needs to learn to hang back, but it's something that won't come overnight.

vaberella
October 13th, 2007, 12:44 PM
I can't wrap my head around Carter going off-world for anything except the a mission where she physically has to be there, ala Weir going on her last off-world mission, and that was a rare, in fact singular event.

There's no way she should have been on that mission to rescue Ronon. What's the purpose, what function did Carter serve there that some other soldier couldn't have performed? If the rescue team had been captured, who would have been in charge, Zalenka?

I think it's fine that Sam would give help in finding solutions, but I think she would be doing it from Atlantis. I know the TPTB want to give Carter a bigger role than Weir had, but it has to remain in the realm of reason.

You are not the only one who cannot wrap your head around it. I hated and despised when Weir went off world in Progeny. You have an elite bloody team for a reason...your presence is called when elite team or a team has made content and designated it safe and then worth your time to go off world to set up treaties and create alliances with the leaders of those respective planets.

Rescue missions? Are a "hell no" in your duty plan. I really had a problem with that scene, normally when Weir would do it; I would throw a fit because she should have not done it after her first instance of it. So I didn't have as much a fit with Carter since this is her first ep; I could also see the character insisting she's an actionary figure or was one for 10 years---going on missions, she also probably wanted to go off world to get some hands on experience with the wraith and unbeknownst at the time--alternatively the reps on that planet, and lastly her brain might be important---which is the weakest because Zelenka was going and he had as many abilities as McKay. In any event, I was unimpressed and I disliked seeing her off world.

She needs to stay on Atlantis unless her presence is specifically called in to do something with her leadership, foster alliances, and negotiations, and maybe scientific if her expertise is called. Other than those listed----I shouldn't expect to see her off world again, or I'll have a fit. :S

FallenAngelII
October 13th, 2007, 12:50 PM
Many have long since wanted to leader of Atlantis to be a military officer who would be completely in charge on everything. The IOA fought that idea since they thought that having a military officer in charge would give too much power to the U.S. government and they wanted to keep control balanced. All this did was take a job that was originally split into two roles for political purposes (not pratical purposes) and put them back together. Laundry, Hammond, and O'neill long since had the same job in the SGC and they managed just fine - They were in charge of the whole base which included both military and scientific endevours and went into danger when necessary (Jack and the puddle jumper, Laundry and the Prior...). But they were older and settled into adminstrative roles so leading a team into battle wouldn't have been a smart idea.
Stargate Command was a military operation, run by the military for the military (and by extension the United States and the rest of the world). The Atlantis Expedition is still a civilian operation, only now with a military leader. However, that does not mean Sam automatically took over as leader of the military as well. I have yet to hear anything stating that.

Jack and Landry only went offworld when the situation really required them specifically. Are you saying the situation reaaaally called for Sam? That the operation would've failed without her? Because, really, what did she do on that rescue op that was so special?


They did it in the Seige. What makes you think they wouldn't do it again if Weir was still in charge and the Wraith attacked? More so what makes you think it won't be helpful since it worked last time?
He wasn't random, though. He was hand-picked by the IOA and sent over to take over. It didn't happen over night or over coffee. The IOA sat down, made a decision and then sent Ellis on his way.

And yes, obviously Ellis was the one to save the day last time, not Elizabeth (who negotiated an additional nuke), John, who piloted said nuke, the Daedalus who arrived in time to help and Rodney and Radek who came up with the cloak! No, Ellis did it all!


It's not that the odds are low, it's that they are capable of preparing for such a situation this time where as last time they were not. Earth pretty much cut off Atlantis' leadership in a time where they could not send help should something happen. This time they will have plenty of warning and can get that help from Earth. However, if you want to talk about low odds, the odds are near impossible that the Wraith can get more ships together than Atlantis can destroy with drones while the Asurans are attacking them. Hypothetically though, even if they could it would not be in their best interests to waste a large amount of ships on another seige when they are being attack by an enemy that could very well wipe them out if left unchecked. Plus they don't know about Atlantis and before they could get anyone to talk yet another rescue mission would be attempted.
The Asurans are still free (or so I assume) to attack Atlantis, should they find out its current location. Or any of the other known and unknown enemies of Atlantis. Or let's say an asteroid is about to hit the city and destroy it.

You do not take chances because "the odds of something happening to the city while I'm dead or injured are low".

And opening up a wormhole capable of transporting matter drains the ZPM considerably. You do not wander off to play hero when the situation doesn't require you to as leader of Atlantis subjecting the city to risk. I mean, what if someone attacked while Sam was off on the rescue mission? Or if she were to be captured, how long before they call for a new leader?


She has long since been the lead SG scientist on Earth and the one whom which Earth needed to continue existing. Yet she ran off into battle at the front of the line all the time. How is she more important now than she was then? I agree that she needs to learn to hang back, but it's something that won't come overnight.
Because it was her job to go off-world? Just like it's Rodney's job to go off-world. It isn't anymore, though.

FallenAngelII
October 13th, 2007, 12:52 PM
She needs to stay on Atlantis unless her presence is specifically called in to do something with her leadership, foster alliances, and negotiations, and maybe scientific if her expertise is called. Other than those listed----I shouldn't expect to see her off world again, or I'll have a fit. :S
Too bad. I hear she goes off world in three episodes this season.

andromeda_dan
October 13th, 2007, 01:00 PM
Her rank as colonel still gives that right be physically present on dangerous missions, regardless of whether her presence is needed or not, but for the sake of ratings, tptb threw her in there anyways. Mostly ranks of generals are kept at home base. Zelenka? He is the next most qualified scientist to Mackay and Carter, but since Mackay is missing and Carter will be riding shot gun, someone needs to have a free set of arm and head to do the hands-on science on this mission.

Cautious Explorer
October 13th, 2007, 01:11 PM
Her rank as colonel still gives that right be physically present on dangerous missions. Mostly ranks of generals are kept at home base. Zelenka? He is the next most qualified scientist to Mackay and Carter, but since Mackay is missing and Carter will be riding shot gun, someone needs to have a free set of arm and head to do the hands-on science on this mission.

There may be special circumstances when Carter's particular qualifications may justify her going on a rescue mission, but this is not one of those times. There was no compelling reason for Radek to go along either.

The team goes on a mission to infiltrate a Wraith lab. When they're captured, Ronon comes back for help. There's no indication that Ronon needs anything except additional manpower and weapons to free his team. Ronon now knows the layout of the lab and an estimate of the Wraith presence there. This is a basic rescue mission that requires no scientific expertise or extraordinary measures. There is no good reason for either Carter or Zelenka to be there.

perfesserkai
October 13th, 2007, 01:21 PM
The bottom line of all this is that, logical or not, Carter made the decision to participate in the mission. I believe she had her reasons, and we may or may not ever find them out. However, also remember she's new at this "base" commander thing, having just been promoted from a front-line field unit. It's probably going to take a little while for her to adjust to the fact that going through the Stargate on missions is no longer a major part of her job description. Once she does, I expect her to do less gate travel in the Pegasus galaxy.

And actually, from how I understand things, based on the fact that she hasn't resigned her commission, and by the fact that she out-ranks Sheppard, Carter would be military commander of Atlantis. Right now she's in basically the same position as General Hammond was in at the SGC, but without the two nifty stars on her shoulder.

-kai

Xaeden
October 13th, 2007, 01:24 PM
Stargate Command was a military operation, run by the military for the military (and by extension the United States and the rest of the world). The Atlantis Expedition is still a civilian operation, only now with a military leader. However, that does not mean Sam automatically took over as leader of the military as well. I have yet to hear anything stating that.

Of course she took over John's job. One cannot appoint a higher ranking military officer and then tell them to let the lower ranking officer keep running things the way he had been.


Jack and Landry only went offworld when the situation really required them specifically. Are you saying the situation reaaaally called for Sam? That the operation would've failed without her? Because, really, what did she do on that rescue op that was so special?

Jack really needed to go offworld to deal with Mayborne and Landry really needed to go off world to confront a prior? I don't think so.


He wasn't random, though. He was hand-picked by the IOA and sent over to take over. It didn't happen over night or over coffee. The IOA sat down, made a decision and then sent Ellis on his way.

I doubt it. Weir's issue is that the military took over whenever there was a problem and although she was on good terms with the IOA (and the president) originally so she could get them to put pressure of the military eventually the IOA began to cave and agree to these plans. The military had no plans on consulting with the IOA on making Caldwell the military leader over Sheppard and I doubt they bothered consulting with them when they decided to send their people, their technology, (remember the international community is still annoyed by the fact that the U.S. has not shared technology as agreed) and their ship over there.


And yes, obviously Ellis was the one to save the day last time, not Elizabeth (who negotiated an additional nuke), John, who piloted said nuke, the Daedalus who arrived in time to help and Rodney and Radek who came up with the cloak! No, Ellis did it all!

Nobody said he did everything, only that it worked out. I disagree with him removing Weir from power, but it wasn't like sending in someone who had no experience with Atlantis didn't help as you were originally suggesting would happen.


The Asurans are still free (or so I assume) to attack Atlantis, should they find out its current location. Or any of the other known and unknown enemies of Atlantis. Or let's say an asteroid is about to hit the city and destroy it.

Well now you're just being silly. The only way the Asurans would know about it is if that one the Wraith were holding got it out of them, but they had no way of knowing her would be there. And if they did find out about Atlantis, Carter being there wouldn't make a difference as Atlantis would still be destroyed. As far as an asteriod - Nobody there is capable of detecting it and shooting at it with drones? Please...


You do not take chances because "the odds of something happening to the city while I'm dead or injured are low".

If they were cut off from Earth, I'd agree. But they are not.


And opening up a wormhole capable of transporting matter drains the ZPM considerably. You do not wander off to play hero when the situation doesn't require you to as leader of Atlantis subjecting the city to risk. I mean, what if someone attacked while Sam was off on the rescue mission? Or if she were to be captured, how long before they call for a new leader?

Transporting matter uses up no more power than just keeping a wormhole active. However, there's the gate bridge for that. Also, I will say this one more time and slowly too: Nobody...is...going...to...attack...Atlantis....while...Carter...is...away ...as...they...have... long...range...sensors... that...will...alert...them...ahead...of...time. The asurans could get there a lot faster than the Wraith and possibly not be detected on approach, but again, if they attack the city, it's gone. Nothing anybody can do at this point would matter. That's why they are depending so heavily on keeping its location a secret. All Carter would do is help lead the evacuation which isn't a complicated job.


Because it was her job to go off-world? Just like it's Rodney's job to go off-world. It isn't anymore, though.

It's her job to do what she sees fit to protect Atlantis and her people. If she sees fit to go offworld then she is doing her job. If you want to think that's a mistake it's a different matter. However, my point was never that it wasn't her job to go off-world as a member of Sg-1. My point was that if she should've stuck to the back while her people went in first as a leader of Atlantis (which is what you said) than she should stuck to the back as a member of Sg-1 (like Rodney does) as she was far more important in that situation than she is in this. However if you don't have a problem with her rushing into battle then, what's your problem with her on the frontline here? She's a military officer with combat experience who has very important secondary jobs in both scenarios. I don't see the difference.

Detox
October 13th, 2007, 01:30 PM
It's logical simply because it makes the episode enjoyable. It's a TV show, not real life, try to base your arguments on that.

SGFerrit
October 13th, 2007, 01:53 PM
Not in one of these episodes did Elizabeth ever go off-world expecting to run into a military situation where her life would be on the line!

Weir walked into their enemies base unarmed with no back up in order to beg for a nuclear bomb.

I'd say that was considerably more idiotic than Carter, a VERY experienced Colonel leading a rescue mission.

I find this strange. One of the biggest anti-sentiments against Carter was 'Mary-Sue character, little miss perfect, NEVER does anything wrong' and now it's 'She did something wrong! How stupid is she?! Idiot!'. As I have said numerous times now regarding the hypocrisy, the woman just can't win with some people.

Shan Bruce Lee
October 13th, 2007, 01:54 PM
It's logical simply because it makes the episode enjoyable. It's a TV show, not real life, try to base your arguments on that.

Plus it's just really awesome to see an original SG-1 team member in action again

andromeda_dan
October 13th, 2007, 02:05 PM
Plus it's just really awesome to see an original SG-1 team member in action again

look forward to the epi with Tea'lc and Ronon

mapsc
October 13th, 2007, 02:23 PM
From Joe's Blog:

Agent Dark writes: “Just curious as to why Carter wears an Atlantis expedition uniforms rather than her Air Force dress uniform?”

Answer: She wears an Atlantis uniform because she will be a member of the Atlantis possessing both military and civilian authority.

Mike

Cautious Explorer
October 13th, 2007, 02:32 PM
It's logical simply because it makes the episode enjoyable. It's a TV show, not real life, try to base your arguments on that.

It may make the episode more enjoyable for you, but that doesn't make it logical. I will, however, agree with you that sometimes illogical actions are necessary to make a story interesting. My main complaint is more about how Carter's character was written/portrayed than with how illogical it was for her to go off-world. IMO it dulled down the action. Everything just looked too easy.


Weir walked into their enemies base unarmed with no back up in order to beg for a nuclear bomb.

I'd say that was considerably more idiotic than Carter, a VERY experienced Colonel leading a rescue mission.

Not really. Atlantis was in a desperate situation and Weir was in a position to use her talents to help. I don't have a problem with a leader going into a dangerous situation if there's a compelling reason.

In this case there was no reason for Carter to be considered best equipped to go on a rescue mission. It was a simple in and out mission that could have been accomplished by any military team on the base. No special abilities unique to Carter were required.



I find this strange. One of the biggest anti-sentiments against Carter was 'Mary-Sue character, little miss perfect, NEVER does anything wrong' and now it's 'She did something wrong! How stupid is she?! Idiot!'. As I have said numerous times now regarding the hypocrisy, the woman just can't win with some people.

Are you saying you think Carter was wrong here, therefor the anti-Carter people should be happy she made a mistake? Or are you saying she was right to go on the mission?

I think the hypocrisy would come into play if Carter made a bad judgment call, there were real repercussions, everything turned out badly and the anti-Carter people were still claiming she was portrayed as doing no wrong. If Carter makes what some people think is a bad call, everything goes swimmingly anyway and the outcome is perfect, then I think perhaps they have a valid point. Even her 'errors" have positive outcomes in that case. It's not so much about the characters actions as how the writers portray the results of those actions IMO.

WingedPegasus
October 13th, 2007, 02:34 PM
Was it logical for Kirk/Picard/Janeway to go on away missions? No.
Did it stop them? No.

marlinz360
October 13th, 2007, 03:05 PM
Cool now we just need Jack to come and mount a rescue mission with Carter
for example rescue Dr. Wier,,,,,

prion
October 13th, 2007, 03:08 PM
It's illogical! If she was killed in the rescue mission together with Shep, Teyla, Ronon, Mckay and Zelenka who would be left to lead Atlantis - Chuck, Keller or Katie Brown???

Lorne! ;)

We all know Carter's going to go off-world because the writers want her to (she's multifaceted, etc. etc. etc.). Honestly, should have waited till a few episodes. I know they wanted her in there to prove her worth, but realistically, she should ahve sent Lorne or anyone else FAMILIAR with Wraith ships, etc. She's never been in a wraith ship, while others have and have experience fighting them.

There's no logic here, just what the writers want, and apparently they also want Carter in all leather too ;)

geewillie86
October 13th, 2007, 03:09 PM
One of the reasons that Carter is such a good choice for leader is that she can go off-world. Seeing carter stuck in stargate ops would be a boring usage of her character. IMO, its one of the reasons they had such a hard time developing Weir.

None of the star trek captains ever stayed locked up in their ship because it would have been boring.

Now, if you're having trouble with cognitive dissonance over the stargate leaders doing unrealistic things like going off world, remember that it is a television show. It has a responsibility to entertain fans, and there's nothing interesting about a desk job.

cavalierlwt
October 13th, 2007, 03:13 PM
Weir walked into their enemies base unarmed with no back up in order to beg for a nuclear bomb.

I'd say that was considerably more idiotic than Carter, a VERY experienced Colonel leading a rescue mission.

I find this strange. One of the biggest anti-sentiments against Carter was 'Mary-Sue character, little miss perfect, NEVER does anything wrong' and now it's 'She did something wrong! How stupid is she?! Idiot!'. As I have said numerous times now regarding the hypocrisy, the woman just can't win with some people.

I'm not anti-Carter at all, I just think it makes more sense to have the person in charge remain at the base and run things, that's why they're there. Carter's biggest contribution to Atlantis is her brains, her experience from ten years as part of SG-1. That asset is lost if Carter gets taken out on a routine mission. Not to mention you have McKay, Zelenka, and Carter all in the same battle? Heck, those three shouldn't be allowed to ride in the same puddlejumper for fear of one accident taking out 90% of Atlantis' brainpower.

BTW,for the people who keep saying it's just a show-- we're just having a friendly discussion, we ALL know its just show, no need to be insulting.

Cautious Explorer
October 13th, 2007, 03:23 PM
One of the reasons that Carter is such a good choice for leader is that she can go off-world. Seeing carter stuck in stargate ops would be a boring usage of her character. IMO, its one of the reasons they had such a hard time developing Weir.

None of the star trek captains ever stayed locked up in their ship because it would have been boring.

Now, if you're having trouble with cognitive dissonance over the stargate leaders doing unrealistic things like going off world, remember that it is a television show. It has a responsibility to entertain fans, and there's nothing interesting about a desk job.

You're right. There is nothing interesting about a desk job. That's why we have the gate teams. And that's why SG-1 was the focus of their show rather than Hammond or Landry.

If Carter was brought to Atlantis to go on missions, she should have been put on a gate team. Thankfully they didn't do that. I like the team the way it is.

The main character in Star Trek was the ship's captain and a few members of the crew. Of course it would be boring if none of them ever left the ship. But Stargate is based around teams of people who regularly go through the gate. There's no real need to frequently send the city leader off-world.

Xaeden
October 13th, 2007, 03:24 PM
Lorne! ;)

We all know Carter's going to go off-world because the writers want her to (she's multifaceted, etc. etc. etc.). Honestly, should have waited till a few episodes. I know they wanted her in there to prove her worth, but realistically, she should ahve sent Lorne or anyone else FAMILIAR with Wraith ships, etc. She's never been in a wraith ship, while others have and have experience fighting them.

There's no logic here, just what the writers want, and apparently they also want Carter in all leather too ;)

First of all she's already experienced in finding her way around in alien situations (for years people have turned to her to explain to them something she was just exposed to at the same time they were). Second, what better way to get to know what she's dealing with then to lead a mission against a target that she believes is easy to deal with? What if in the future she's trapped on a Wraith Hive ship due to no mistake of her own and her navigating her way around is the only way she is going to be able to free herself and save the day? You act like someone who is not familar with the enemy at this point should just avoid them which is silly.

Also, we don't know where Lorne was. As someone said earlier in the thread he could've been on his own offworld mission for all we know. Obviously they didn't have the actor available for this episode so they either had to ignore him or write in a line to explain why he couldn't take part in the mission - They chose to ignore him and leave it up to our own speculations.


You're right. There is nothing interesting about a desk job. That's why we have the gate teams. And that's why SG-1 was the focus of their show rather than Hammond or Landry.

If Carter was brought to Atlantis to go on missions, she should have been put on a gate team. Thankfully they didn't do that. I like the team the way it is.

The main character in Star Trek was the ship's captain and a few members of the crew. Of course it would be boring if none of them ever left the ship. But Stargate is based around teams of people who regularly go through the gate. There's no real need to frequently send the city leader off-world.

Sg-1 was based around teams who go off world - Atlantis still makes it the focal point of the show but it has always attempted to make the show more than just that. Also, Hammond and Landry didn't go off world because they were not fit to be part of a team. Thus for plot purposes the only way to see them in combat was when someone or something invaded the base. Then you'd see Hammond running around with a gun or whatever. Since Sam is perfectly fit for ops, however, they are able to bring her character to places where it would not have made sense for our Sg-1 generals to go. You're comparing apples or oranges or young fit military officers to old, fat, over the hill generals who have settled into adminstrative duties because that's the only place that they would be useful at this point.

prion
October 13th, 2007, 03:44 PM
First of all she's already experienced in finding her way around in alien situations (for years people have turned to her to explain to them something she was just exposed to at the same time they were). Second, what better way to get to know what she's dealing with then to lead a mission against a target that she believes is easy to deal with? What if in the future she's trapped on a Wraith Hive ship due to no mistake of her own and her navigating her way around is the only way she is going to be able to free herself and save the day? You act like someone who is not familar with the enemy at this point should just avoid them which is silly.

Also, we don't know where Lorne was. As someone said earlier in the thread he could've been on his own offworld mission for all we know. Obviously they didn't have the actor available for this episode so they either had to ignore him or write in a line to explain why he couldn't take part in the mission - They chose to ignore him and leave it up to our own speculations.



Sg-1 was based around teams who go off world - Atlantis still makes it the focal point of the show but it has always attempted to make the show more than just that. Also, Hammond and Landry didn't go off world because they were not fit to be part of a team. Thus for plot purposes the only way to see them in combat was when someone or something invaded the base. Then you'd see Hammond running around with a gun or whatever. Since Sam is perfectly fit for ops, however, they are able to bring her character to places where it would not have made sense for our Sg-1 generals to go. You're comparing apples or oranges or young fit military officers to old, fat, over the hill generals who have settled into adminstrative duties because that's the only place that they would be useful at this point.

Ah, I still stand by my thoughts. Sam went out becuase it was the writers' way of integrating her into the series. Logically, like Hammond, or O'Neill (in his present position), she *should* be staying back and minding the fort. When you accept promotions upwards, you acknowledge you lose going out into the field. It's a fact of life.

Briangate78
October 13th, 2007, 03:52 PM
I can't wrap my head around Carter going off-world for anything except the a mission where she physically has to be there, ala Weir going on her last off-world mission, and that was a rare, in fact singular event.

There's no way she should have been on that mission to rescue Ronon. What's the purpose, what function did Carter serve there that some other soldier couldn't have performed? If the rescue team had been captured, who would have been in charge, Zalenka?

I think it's fine that Sam would give help in finding solutions, but I think she would be doing it from Atlantis. I know the TPTB want to give Carter a bigger role than Weir had, but it has to remain in the realm of reason.

Well, it did not stop O'neill in Season 8 when he became head of the SGC. Also, if you remember the episode "Shades of Grey" when O'neill became commander of the rogue group. There was a simple rekon mission that O'neill did not need to go on according to his 2IC. O'neill made a comment to his 2IC, that if he was going to be commander he should be able to know how to do everything when the time came for a crisis.

This goes for Carter, she needs to know what is out there. She has never seen a Wraith in the flesh. There are people on Atlantis holding the fort in case she goes mia. The SGC or IOA can fufill that role with one step through the Stargate.

Xaeden
October 13th, 2007, 04:03 PM
Ah, I still stand by my thoughts. Sam went out becuase it was the writers' way of integrating her into the series. Logically, like Hammond, or O'Neill (in his present position), she *should* be staying back and minding the fort. When you accept promotions upwards, you acknowledge you lose going out into the field. It's a fact of life.

Actually I agree with you. I think they are trying to show that Sam is new to just sitting on her hands and letting people do their jobs. At a later point I think someone will tell her that she can't be running off all the time anymore and so she will have to learn the hard way that she's no longer apart of the Sg-1 who would get some people together and run off through the Stargate when a team went missing. To me I see this as a set up for important character development more than anything else. Landry and Hammond were forced to stay back because of their age and the shape they were in, but O'neill was not and I see her having to go through something similar to him where he had a very hard time no longer being out in the field all the time.

My point always was that she shouldn't be in the field, but she can be if she wants to and if she does make that decision it's not the end of the world as some people are making it out to be.

Cautious Explorer
October 13th, 2007, 04:17 PM
First of all she's already experienced in finding her way around in alien situations (for years people have turned to her to explain to them something she was just exposed to at the same time they were). Second, what better way to get to know what she's dealing with then to lead a mission against a target that she believes is easy to deal with? What if in the future she's trapped on a Wraith Hive ship due to no mistake of her own and her navigating her way around is the only way she is going to be able to free herself and save the day? You act like someone who is not familar with the enemy at this point should just avoid them which is silly.

A rescue operation probably isn't the best time for Carter to try out the training wheels. She does have experience in the Milky Way, but the current military contingent in Pegasus has far more experience with the Wraith. You seem to be suggesting that it's more important for Carter to get some familiarity with the Wraith for her own self-preservation than it is to rescue the team. I'm sure there will be plenty of other, more appropriate opportunities to familiarize herself with the Wraith -- just the way all the other newcomers to Pegasus do.

I think Carter should be wise enough to know that prior experience with the enemy at hand is just as valuable as her years of experience at the SGC.



Sg-1 was based around teams who go off world - Atlantis still makes it the focal point of the show but it has always attempted to make the show more than just that. Also, Hammond and Landry didn't go off world because they were not fit to be part of a team. Thus for plot purposes the only way to see them in combat was when someone or something invaded the base. Then you'd see Hammond running around with a gun or whatever. Since Sam is perfectly fit for ops, however, they are able to bring her character to places where it would not have made sense for our Sg-1 generals to go. You're comparing apples or oranges or young fit military officers to old, fat, over the hill generals who have settled into adminstrative duties because that's the only place that they would be useful at this point.

Since Atlantis was written with a civilian commander in mind, who rarely left the city, and all the off-world missions centered around the gate team, I'm going to hazard a guess that TPTB didn't intend to veer that far from the original Stargate setup. There was a tendency to focus some episodes within the city itself, and that may not have been true of the SGC--I'll have to take your word on it.

If I'm understanding you correctly, and you feel that there would have been a greater role for Hammond if he had only been younger and more fit, then I wonder why they replaced him with a character of similar age and fitness. I think there was something other than the fitness level of the actor involved.

I don't think TPTB are planning to completely replace the traditional Stargate format (gate team focus) and turn it into a Star Trek format (captain/command staff focus) simply because it's Carter. At least I hope not. I think that would destroy the show.

Avenger
October 13th, 2007, 04:19 PM
The main character in Star Trek was the ship's captain and a few members of the crew. Of course it would be boring if none of them ever left the ship. But Stargate is based around teams of people who regularly go through the gate. There's no real need to frequently send the city leader off-world.

Not frequently, but that it's a possibility adds more to the role of the leader, in this case Carter. She is not going to be out of place if she has to go off world for a rescue mission, or through the gate to check out some new technology. Weir, as a character, was anchored to her office. It limited what the creative minds could do with her.

SGFerrit
October 13th, 2007, 04:24 PM
Are you saying you think Carter was wrong here, therefor the anti-Carter people should be happy she made a mistake? Or are you saying she was right to go on the mission?

I think the hypocrisy would come into play if Carter made a bad judgment call, there were real repercussions, everything turned out badly and the anti-Carter people were still claiming she was portrayed as doing no wrong. If Carter makes what some people think is a bad call, everything goes swimmingly anyway and the outcome is perfect, then I think perhaps they have a valid point. Even her 'errors" have positive outcomes in that case. It's not so much about the characters actions as how the writers portray the results of those actions IMO.

I personally didn't think she was wrong to go off world. IMO it was something. she could handle.

And I do agree about the repercussions thing. But IMO that isn't the characters fault, and the blame cannot lie with her. If anything, it lies with the characters around her who choose not to turn a blind eye when she does something wrong. They did the same thing with Weir mostly. Except for Kavanaugh of course. But everyone hated him, so it's alright:)

I feel this may change though with Ronon and maybe Sheppard. I think they will call her up on something if they disagree/think she does something wrong. And you can bet Rodney will!

Xaeden
October 13th, 2007, 04:51 PM
A rescue operation probably isn't the best time for Carter to try out the training wheels. She does have experience in the Milky Way, but the current military contingent in Pegasus has far more experience with the Wraith. You seem to be suggesting that it's more important for Carter to get some familiarity with the Wraith for her own self-preservation than it is to rescue the team. I'm sure there will be plenty of other, more appropriate opportunities to familiarize herself with the Wraith -- just the way all the other newcomers to Pegasus do.

What would you think is a better situation? Would it have been better if she went with Sheppard instead of going with the recue team? In my opinion leading a rescue team like that is a far better way to become familar with an enemy than leading the inital attack. Sheppard and his team had already cleared the way for them, so there were less hostiles to deal with, they managed to make it so there was absolutely no way that they would be expected, and she was being lead by Ronan who already had been in the facility. I don't know how much better you can get than that.

That said, I don't at all think she went there to become familar with the enemy. I was simply pointing out my shock at the comment that she shouldn't go there because she wasn't familar with the Wraith. If that were a reason to stay behind then how would she or anyone ever get to the point where they can go on an op? As I originally said she may not only get into a situation where she needs to save herself, but in doing so she may save everyone (i.e. Getting other trapped members off the ship as well) and all because she was absolutely needed to look at a piece of alien technology offworld and the Wraith attacked - You can't hide from the unfamilar forever.


Since Atlantis was written with a civilian commander in mind, who rarely left the city, and all the off-world missions centered around the gate team, I'm going to hazard a guess that TPTB didn't intend to veer that far from the original Stargate setup. There was a tendency to focus some episodes within the city itself, and that may not have been true of the SGC--I'll have to take your word on it.

Sg-1 had its fair share of base oriented episodes. However, I feel that naming the show after one team heavily tied them down into making it all about them. They were the ones who saved the day every time and everyone else simply were there as background who supported them (this changed a bit as the series progressed and was helped by the creation of Earth ships) or got in their way. Atlantis has a larger feel to it than that of just the four team members who go offworld as although most of the action centers around them, the Stargate Atlantis universe does not. I could go deeper into it, but I think I got my point of view across.


If I'm understanding you correctly, and you feel that there would have been a greater role for Hammond if he had only been younger and more fit, then I wonder why they replaced him with a character of similar age and fitness. I think there was something other than the fitness level of the actor involved.

No I feel as thought they specifically wrote Hammond as an older, out of shape character so that he could not be involved as much and replaced O'neill with a character similar to him so they could continue doing that. However, I feel that they brought Sam in purposely so they could involve the leader more so than they had been. They really tried to make Weir a strong, proactive character who was very much involved (i.e. "The Real World") but there were limitations on what they could do with her and I think they like that they can do more with Sam. I think their original idea was to set Atlantis apart from Sg-1 by making Weir more involved through diplomatic situations but they had a hard time writing enough of those in so she didn't develop as much as they wanted. That is completely baseless speculation on my part though.


I don't think TPTB are planning to completely replace the traditional Stargate format (gate team focus) and turn it into a Star Trek format (captain/command staff focus) simply because it's Carter. At least I hope not. I think that would destroy the show.

I don't think they would do that. Look at this episde as an example - In the same episode Carter was introduced she still took second stage to the main act. However, I think they're going to build her character a bit instead of focusing on minor people who we never see again or die. For example, normally they would be a background scientist who comes in to help Zelenka and Rodney and now I suspect that will be Sam. Also previously we would've gotten either no-names or Lorne (depending on if the actor was available) to save Sheppard and now we got Carter. The show would be pretty boring if it became about her as she can't take over Sheppard's team and run offworld with him all the time and they can't make the show about a fixed location as danger doesn't come to them that often where as in Star Trek they were always flying into danger. So, from time to time I think we'll see more of her involvement than we had seen with previously leaders, but not so much so that it overshadows the established cast members.

garhkal
October 13th, 2007, 04:56 PM
[QUOTE=FallenAngelII;7211766]Those were logical though.
In "The Siege (Part II)", she returned to debrief the IOA on their command.]/quote]

Actually that was her going off tot he Genii home world to negotiate for the nukes that Shep later used to blow that one hive up..

Rats.. someome beat me to it.

[quote]The bottom line of all this is that, logical or not, Carter made the decision to participate in the mission. I believe she had her reasons, and we may or may not ever find them out. However, also remember she's new at this "base" commander thing, having just been promoted from a front-line field unit. It's probably going to take a little while for her to adjust to the fact that going through the Stargate on missions is no longer a major part of her job description. Once she does, I expect her to do less gate travel in the Pegasus galaxy./quote]

That is a great point. She had 10 years of off world experience on the flag ship team, and even when in command, she still went off world. SO i see it more of her 'go out and get things done' mentality kicking in. SOmething as the new leader of atlantis she needs to ween herself off of.

Willow'sCat
October 13th, 2007, 05:07 PM
When I saw her join the rescue team my eyes rolled so hard I thought id be permantly damaged ;)

If her going was a necesity to the storyline ala no other scientest capable there etc then I could have suspended my disbelief, but no. Lorne would have been a much more suitable addition IMHO.

Logical thinking in the same sentence as TPTB is wishfull thinking is it not :p:pI am with you. In fact I posted about this ages ago in the Pro-Con Carter thread.

My main reason for thinking Carter would be a good leader was because she could see both sides, but there shouldn't be any real need for the leader to go off world unless for high levels meetings (or the PG equivalent).

In Reunion we got her doing nothing more then any marine or solider could have done. And like you say... since we had *spoilers Doppleganger* Lorne in DG, I assume he came with Carter in the first or second 'visit' to Atlantis this season... they should have used Lorne, he is also liked by many people who watch SGA, so it isn't like he would have been some blow in where people would have been wondering who he is...for me Cater needs to stay on Atlantis, sure if there is some unique experience she can bring... I know some will say that Sheppard, McKay were in danger and they are the second and third in command of Atlantis so she may have had a good reason, but then why risk losing all three of them in one hit? :S

No, we *by we I mean me* know what the powers were doing :mckay: and for me it didn't work. :cool:

Cautious Explorer
October 13th, 2007, 05:26 PM
What would you think is a better situation? Would it have been better if she went with Sheppard instead of going with the recue team? In my opinion leading a rescue team like that is a far better way to become familar with an enemy than leading the inital attack. Sheppard and his team had already cleared the way for them, so there were less hostiles to deal with, they managed to make it so there was absolutely no way that they would be expected, and she was being lead by Ronan who already had been in the facility. I don't know how much better you can get than that.

That said, I don't at all think she went there to become familar with the enemy. I was simply pointing out my shock at the comment that she shouldn't go there because she wasn't familar with the Wraith. If that were a reason to stay behind then how would she or anyone ever get to the point where they can go on an op? As I originally said she may not only get into a situation where she needs to save herself, but in doing so she may save everyone (i.e. Getting other trapped members off the ship as well) and all because she was absolutely needed to look at a piece of alien technology offworld and the Wraith attacked - You can't hide from the unfamilar forever.

Oh no, I didn't mean to imply that she should have been part of the team and gone on the infiltration mission. That's something I never hope to see. I'm not that fond of how Carter is written that I want to see her actually join the team on missions.

I'm not sure what kind of military contingent is on Atlantis at the moment. If it were a case of not enough people and Carter is jumping in to help because they're short-handed, then I can accept that she's needed on the rescue mission. But if the full staff is back on Atlantis, then I think the rescue should have been left in the hands of the people who are already familiar with the Pegasus Galaxy. This is her first day. There's plenty of time for her to familiarize herself with Pegasus when people's lives aren't at stake.

I'm sure there are methods in place to introduce newcomers to the reality of the Pegasus Galaxy. I'm pretty certain they don't include leading a rescue mission into a Wraith lab. I am aware that she has a lot of experience in the Milky Way, but it doesn't necessarily translate immediately to Pegasus. I don't think this was the time or place to learn about it. I will give her credit for stepping back and letting Sheppard take charge once he and Teyla were released.



No I feel as thought they specifically wrote Hammond as an older, out of shape character so that he could not be involved as much and replaced O'neill with a character similar to him so they could continue doing that. However, I feel that they brought Sam in purposely so they could involve the leader more so than they had been. They really tried to make Weir a strong, proactive character who was very much involved (i.e. "The Real World") but there were limitations on what they could do with her and I think they like that they can do more with Sam. I think their original idea was to set Atlantis apart from Sg-1 by making Weir more involved through diplomatic situations but they had a hard time writing enough of those in so she didn't develop as much as they wanted. That is completely baseless speculation on my part though.

I don't think TPTB ever really knew what to do with Weir. I think they want to bring in an old familiar character that's easy to write for. Since they're more comfortable with Carter, she probably will get more involvment than Weir did. I have the feeling it's going to be more technobabble than anything.




I don't think they would do that. Look at this episde as an example - In the same episode Carter was introduced she still took second stage to the main act. However, I think they're going to build her character a bit instead of focusing on minor people who we never see again or die. For example, normally they would be a background scientist who comes in to help Zelenka and Rodney and now I suspect that will be Sam. Also previously we would've gotten either no-names or Lorne (depending on if the actor was available) to save Sheppard and now we got Carter. The show would be pretty boring if it became about her as she can't take over Sheppard's team and run offworld with him all the time and they can't make the show about a fixed location as danger doesn't come to them that often where as in Star Trek they were always flying into danger. So, from time to time I think we'll see more of her involvement than we had seen with previously leaders, but not so much so that it overshadows the established cast members.

Sadly, I like those minor characters. They help give Atlantis its character. And I would have much preferred to see Lorne come to the rescue than Carter. So far, and I know it's early in the season, but Carter showing up means a quick-fix is coming. Extend the sensors, find Atlantis and save the day. Fly to the planet, stroll into the Wraith lab, shoot a Wraith and go home. At least with Lorne, there's a chance things will go wrong, that they'll have to fight a little harder to get out. Sometimes being overly competent just becomes overly boring.

Agent_Dark
October 13th, 2007, 06:13 PM
It doesn't improve morale to have the leader run into combat. It shows the starting of a pattern of bad decision-making, which lowers morale.
Mmm, no the opposite actually. It shows she can get dirty with the rest of the troops and shakes the image of a REMF. I can guarantee you that having your boss working right next to you, getting their hands dirty in the same crap that you are is a very good thing for morale.
Can it happen all the time? No, of course not. Even Carter doesn't have that much micro. No one does.

elbo
October 13th, 2007, 06:22 PM
Yes is very logical. From time to time, even if the risk of capturing exist.

Sam makes efforts to integrate in the group and this can be done participating to the team's actions, form in-world and off-world, from time to time. Not by siting all day in your office and just exiting in the balcony more for the cameras and contributing to the show by in-hale and ex-hale the fresh air of the ocean.

Also facing with the capture of the flag team, this is a special situation, and Sam has a unique experience in those sort of infiltration/rescue ops. Maby you notice that SGA didn't used those sort of mission too often.

Willow'sCat
October 13th, 2007, 06:31 PM
Yes is very logical. From time to time, even if the risk of capturing exist.

Sam makes efforts to integrate in the group and this can be done participating to the team's actions, form in-world and off-world, from time to time. Not by siting all day in your office and just exiting in the balcony more for the cameras and contributing to the show by in-hale and ex-hale the fresh air of the ocean.

Also facing with the capture of the flag team, this is a special situation, and Sam has a unique experience in those sort of infiltration/rescue ops. Maby you notice that SGA didn't used those sort of mission too often.Sam is the leader not part of the TEAM, therefore she needs to lead by giving the orders and staying behind to help protect Atlantis.

What you see as pen pushing is all part of her new role. If she wasn't prepared for that, then she should have turned the leadership *role* down. She made her bed, now she must learn to pick her battles, this was not one of them imho. She had no idea, right up to seeing Sheppard that Ronon's "friends" had double crossed them. She had bad intel, she should have suspected something more, so she imho put not only herself at risk in her first week but possibly all of Atlantis...she made a bad decision.

Well at least one thing hasn't changed I suppose. :cool:

prion
October 13th, 2007, 06:51 PM
What I'd like to see addressed (which wasn't in this episode) is the scientists', etc. reaction to the city now being under *military* rule. It was civilian before, but not the military is calling the shots.

You know, it wasn't explained or shown why Sam decided to go on the rescue mission, instead of sending someone else (except that the writers decided to do it). She just made a decision. Hope the SGC doesn't call while she's off...

Chuck: Hello?
SGC: We'd like to speak to Colonel Carter.
Chuck: SHe's not here right now. She's on a rescue mission. Can I take a message?
SGC: Who's in charge?
Chuck: Hmm, that would be me ....

elbo
October 13th, 2007, 06:59 PM
I think that there is a confusion between a civil leadership and a military leadership. Those are quite different things. The ranking officer is participating often in missions, in which his/her military skills are required or needed, by the circuumstances, while the civil leader has really no purpose in a military mission.

To be specific, this was a important rescue mission, in which the flag team was captured, with a higher importance than what a major (ex. Lorne) can handle. Really if both Sheppard and Sam were available Sam would have never go off-world, but so is very logical like she had to lead the operation, instead of leting it to someone with much less experience.

Yes the risk existed and Sam is that character that take a risk when necesarey, not only speak on city wide about the bravery of others.

SaberBlade
October 13th, 2007, 07:08 PM
Carter has more offworld experience than anyone at Atlantis and more combat experience offworld that anyone there. In that regards, it makes perfect sense for her to be there. She's a better choice than a random Airman or Marine who'd end up being a redshirt.

Carter had only gotten there, so it's not like there was some great potato crisis that needed to be sorted out like when Jack was in command. She was still unpacking so going offworld wouldn't have affected her duties. If Jack hadn't been promoted as a way to give RDA more free time, I could have seen Jack doing the same from time to time as a General.

As for Zelenka, he has the gene therefor he'd be needed to use the scanner (unless you want to risk the pilot) and if they came across a locked door like Rodney did, Carter wouldn't have a clue while Zelenka has the most experience with Wraith technology next to McKay.

Ltcolshepjumper
October 13th, 2007, 07:12 PM
Carter has more offworld experience than anyone at Atlantis and more combat experience offworld that anyone there. In that regards, it makes perfect sense for her to be there. She's a better choice than a random Airman or Marine who'd end up being a redshirt.

Carter had only gotten there, so it's not like there was some great potato crisis that needed to be sorted out like when Jack was in command. She was still unpacking so going offworld wouldn't have affected her duties. If Jack hadn't been promoted as a way to give RDA more free time, I could have seen Jack doing the same from time to time as a General.

As for Zelenka, he has the gene therefor he'd be needed to use the scanner (unless you want to risk the pilot) and if they came across a locked door like Rodney did, Carter wouldn't have a clue while Zelenka has the most experience with Wraith technology next to McKay.

One, Zelenka doesn't have the gene. Two, Joe Mallozzi has stated in tonight's blog entry that Zelenka was NOT carrying an Ancient scanner.

Xaeden
October 13th, 2007, 07:16 PM
for Zelenka, he has the gene therefor he'd be needed to use the scanner (unless you want to risk the pilot) and if they came across a locked door like Rodney did, Carter wouldn't have a clue while Zelenka has the most experience with Wraith technology next to McKay.

He doesn't have the Ancient gene and he didn't use an Ancient scanner. There's another thread here which quotes Joe's blog where he explains that it's simply a device that detects energy signatures. But, yes, I agree that he had the most experience with Wraith technology so him being there could've helped as far as Sam knew. Also, Mckay and Zelenka are getting in the habit of volunteering to save each other. It was nice to see the continued character development for Zelenka who not too long ago would've been terrified in such a situation. People have never complained about both of them putting themselves in danger, but all the of the sudden Sam comes along and they shouldn't have had all 3 of them in danger? How is this any different than before when Sam was back in Sg-1 and would've been unable to replace them had they both gotten themselves killed?

prion
October 13th, 2007, 07:20 PM
One, Zelenka doesn't have the gene. Two, Joe Mallozzi has stated in tonight's blog entry that Zelenka was NOT carrying an Ancient scanner.

Sure looks a lot like the Ancient scanner *cough*. Really, it does.


Carter has more offworld experience than anyone at Atlantis and more combat experience offworld that anyone there. In that regards, it makes perfect sense for her to be there. She's a better choice than a random Airman or Marine who'd end up being a redshirt.


She has offworld experience in the Milky Way, where the bad guys usually wanted to capture and enslave you, not have you for lunch. And if you're referring to the rescue mission, somone like Lorne has far more experience than Carter when it comes to the Wraith.

elbo
October 13th, 2007, 07:21 PM
What I'd like to see addressed (which wasn't in this episode) is the scientists', etc. reaction to the city now being under *military* rule. It was civilian before, but not the military is calling the shots.

I'm sure that the scientific personal would have wanted a Rodney type in charge of the galactic operation or somone who have no clue about what she leads, not someone like that 'witch blonde' who harese the scientists all day for not being military, and has no background in science at all.



Chuck: Hello?
SGC: We'd like to speak to Colonel Carter.
Chuck: SHe's not here right now. She's on a rescue mission. Can I take a message?
SGC: Who's in charge?
Chuck: Hmm, that would be me ....

But what would have happen if Sheppard ex-wife would have called:

Chuck: Hello?
hot chick: Where is my ex?
Chuck: Is dinning with a Wraith.
hot chick: So he is cheating on me, again! I will suit the company ...

Really now, you are still forgeting that Atlantis is a military base on a alien planet in a different galaxy not a public company lead by red and anoying blouses and burecreats, where each member can be unavailabe at a specific time, because of: a mission, a alien infection/disease/posession, etc SLEEP, rescuing people, from which Rodney could an armaghedon in the enemy hands.

prion
October 13th, 2007, 07:24 PM
I think that there is a confusion between a civil leadership and a military leadership. Those are quite different things. The ranking officer is participating often in missions, in which his/her military skills are required or needed, by the circuumstances, while the civil leader has really no purpose in a military mission.

To be specific, this was a important rescue mission, in which the flag team was captured, with a higher importance than what a major (ex. Lorne) can handle. Really if both Sheppard and Sam were available Sam would have never go off-world, but so is very logical like she had to lead the operation, instead of leting it to someone with much less experience.

Yes the risk existed and Sam is that character that take a risk when necesarey, not only speak on city wide about the bravery of others.

I think that's one reason they ditched Weir- they wanted a military person in charge because, well, frankly, they didn't know how to write for Weir, sad to say.

The thing is, the flagship team is out there, and it makes no sense to risk the leader as well. Lorne is very capable of extracting captured teams ;) Still believe that Lorne's experience does outdo Carter's in terms of wraith situations, but the writers wanted Carter in the thick of things, so they did it.

Ltcolshepjumper
October 13th, 2007, 07:27 PM
The base environment is not going to change. the only thing that will change is that the people under Carter will actually have to obey her, without question. Besides that, the base is no moe militarized than when Dr. Weir was in charge. Carter has much more of a scientist personality than a military personality ( as in something like Oneill, caldwell, ellis, any of the generals).
And really, Carter's experience in the Milky Way can never really help her in dealing with the Wraith. Now, because they will write the Asurans just like the MW Replicators, she obviously has experience there. Although they do act different and use different technology.

elbo
October 13th, 2007, 07:51 PM
I think that's one reason they ditched Weir- they wanted a military person in charge because, well, frankly, they didn't know how to write for Weir, sad to say.

I very much agree with you. They were starting in repeating S1 plots in S3 second part. I couldn't imaging what Weir would have bring to S4 in the previous state ... What? A new situation of quarantine like in 'Hot Zone', going off-world to traduce something ancient, another alliance with the Wraith. The writers had so very little to work with and Weir was created such an isolated character, unimaginative (1-2 original ideas in 3 seasons) and frankly too bureacratic for a sci-fi show.

If this would have been Star Trek, a Weir like character would have had a top spot there, with all those inter-species relations (not leading the ship of course), but in this universe her character seem out of place. Really don't you think that is better to change a character rather than a universe?



The thing is, the flagship team is out there, and it makes no sense to risk the leader as well. Lorne is very capable of extracting captured teams ;) Still believe that Lorne's experience does outdo Carter's in terms of wraith situations, but the writers wanted Carter in the thick of things, so they did it.

So you say ... but i didn't see Lorne once attempting a rescuing mission (writers foul), and i saw Carter succeding quite a few in SG1. And then let's shoot the writers for not giving Lorne more screen. If it will be after me i would wish a 10 characters main cast. But so, with Lorne still recurring and Sam main cast, is not logical like a such important resource like Sam to be wasted siting in the city even if she is the most qualified to run this one, again a exception with Sheppard captured.

And frankly i'm not very much fond of Lorne. I find him a very previsible character with very uninteresting lines there. I rather see Sam interacting with the Wraith (premiere) at some level. Being the leader now, it is also logical for her to see first hand the enemy, no? Is not like she lead the team off-word every day now.

SaberBlade
October 13th, 2007, 08:11 PM
That's odd, I thought he was carrying the Ancient scanner therefor he had the gene. My bad on that one, sorry. Although it looked like a scanner, hell it even sounded like one. I think JM is just trying to cover up a goof to be honest but hey, who am I to disagree with a PTB.

Briangate78
October 13th, 2007, 08:18 PM
So do people want her to be stuck behind a desk or office? I loved when Weir went on missions, like "Progeny", " The Return", and "Submerssion" Hate to see Carter stuck in that one position.

Xaeden
October 13th, 2007, 08:18 PM
So you say ... but i didn't see Lorne once attempting a rescuing mission (writers foul), and i saw Carter succeding quite a few in SG1. And then let's shoot the writers for not giving Lorne more screen. If it will be after me i would wish a 10 characters main cast. But so, with Lorne still recurring and Sam main cast, is not logical like a such important resource like Sam to be wasted siting in the city even if she is the most qualified to run this one, again a exception with Sheppard captured.

Lorne was involved in the rescue mission for the season 2 episode, Condemmed. However, he did everything from a jumper. He also has his own team so he spends a bunch of time offworld. The actor's time is split between shooting Atlantis and The 4400 so he's not available much.

Anyway, I agree with you, I'm just pointing out where other's arguments are coming from. What I find most odd is that some people keep insisting on Major Lorne being the better choice even though they have no idea where he was this episode and so in all likelyhood if it wasn't Carter going through that gate it probably would've been someone we don't know since the actor was probably unavailable thus if they told us where the character was during this time it probably would've been offworld. I suspect some people are simply angry at the idea that Carter might be taking away a role that would've belonged to Lorne if Weir was still in charge.

As far as Lorne being the better choice, Ronan was leading the charge and was fully familar with the layout of the structure and fighting the Wraith so Carter was in good hands as far as dealing an unknown enemy and she is experienced in rescue ops, ops in general, and adapting to completely alien territory quickly. So I fail to see how Lorne would've been a better choice. We don't even know that he's ever been in a Wraith structure before so at best he's experienced in what...Shooting aliens that sometimes get up after you shoot them while firing weapons that stun you? Yeah, that's completely foreign to Carter...

elbo
October 13th, 2007, 08:40 PM
So do people want her to be stuck behind a desk or office? I loved when Weir went on missions, like "Progeny", " The Return", and "Submerssion" Hate to see Carter stuck in that one position.

She had a similar incursion in an episode, in which in the same desire to help Sheppard, trapped in the sanctuary. And frankly she don't do much here, she was not vital to this mission. She just confirm what Teyla say about the ancient text and the rest of the episode is, just there.

FallenAngelII
October 14th, 2007, 01:37 AM
Weir walked into their enemies base unarmed with no back up in order to beg for a nuclear bomb.

I'd say that was considerably more idiotic than Carter, a VERY experienced Colonel leading a rescue mission.
Well, they were royally screwed back then. Cut off from Earth (because they had no ZPM of their own), the Wraith on their doorstep. Elizabeth did the only thing she could do; negotiate for a Nuclear Bomb.

Of course, all it would do would have been to buy time, but it didn't really matter if she died then, did it? Not to mention that leadership of Atlantis had already been transfered to Ellis.


I find this strange. One of the biggest anti-sentiments against Carter was 'Mary-Sue character, little miss perfect, NEVER does anything wrong' and now it's 'She did something wrong! How stupid is she?! Idiot!'. As I have said numerous times now regarding the hypocrisy, the woman just can't win with some people.
It's... hypocritical? We hate her because she almost never does anything wrong (or are you saying her 10 years of SG-1 are riddled with wrongdoing?), not because she never does anything wrong. Even Sam's not that perfect.

It's not hypocritical of us to hate her for not doing things wrong and criticize her on the few occasions when she does things wrong.

And in case you haven't noticed, this thread is crawling with people who, much like yourself, are defending her doings in "Reunion". So either we're (the people criticizing her) are wrong or the Saint Carter fans are wrong because, no, she really did do something wrong (in which case, by your argument, my side would be hypocrites).

So what is it? We're the hypocrites or Sam did something wrong?

prion: Yeah, and what's up with those two Red Shirts? They didn't send in Lorne or Cadman for whatever reason and instead Sam sent herself (zero prior experience with the Wraith) and two Red Shirts we'd never seen before... plus Ronon and an unarmed Radek.


One of the reasons that Carter is such a good choice for leader is that she can go off-world. Seeing carter stuck in stargate ops would be a boring usage of her character. IMO, its one of the reasons they had such a hard time developing Weir.
George, Jack and Hank did quite well by only going offworld once or twice each during their multiple years as leaders Stargate Command.

This is why it's a bad idea to stick Sam as leader of Atlantis. They should've made her the leader of her own SGA-team or whatever. They can't just make her leader, only then realize, "Hey, the leader doesn't really go off world." and then insert random off worldedness for the sake of fanservice.


Well, it did not stop O'neill in Season 8 when he became head of the SGC. Also, if you remember the episode "Shades of Grey" when O'neill became commander of the rogue group. There was a simple rekon mission that O'neill did not need to go on according to his 2IC. O'neill made a comment to his 2IC, that if he was going to be commander he should be able to know how to do everything when the time came for a crisis.
Illogical fanservice does not make future illogical fanservice any less of illogical fanservice.

What does "Shades of Grey" have to do with anything? Those people were stupid.


That is a great point. She had 10 years of off world experience on the flag ship team, and even when in command, she still went off world. SO i see it more of her 'go out and get things done' mentality kicking in. SOmething as the new leader of atlantis she needs to ween herself off of.
I do not know what show you've been watching but Sam was never in command of anything on SG-1 besides possibly being co-commander of SG-1 and it would only be logical for the co-commander (and commander) to go off-world with their team.


Mmm, no the opposite actually. It shows she can get dirty with the rest of the troops and shakes the image of a REMF. I can guarantee you that having your boss working right next to you, getting their hands dirty in the same crap that you are is a very good thing for morale.
Can it happen all the time? No, of course not. Even Carter doesn't have that much micro. No one does.
Clear thinking and smart individuals would go "WTF" when their leader went off-world with zero prior experience with the Wraith to combat... the Wraith. With a team of four (+ 1 unarmed scientist) when they had already managed to capture Atlantis' flagship team!


I think that there is a confusion between a civil leadership and a military leadership. Those are quite different things. The ranking officer is participating often in missions, in which his/her military skills are required or needed, by the circuumstances, while the civil leader has really no purpose in a military mission.
Really? Have I been to assume that in the War in Iraq, the high rank military officials in charge do not go into the streets and combat insurgents? Or that the high ranking military leaders of USAF bases do not fly off in Blackhawk and whatever to shoot down enemy aircraft?


To be specific, this was a important rescue mission, in which the flag team was captured, with a higher importance than what a major (ex. Lorne) can handle. Really if both Sheppard and Sam were available Sam would have never go off-world, but so is very logical like she had to lead the operation, instead of leting it to someone with much less experience.
I'm sorry, but Major Lorne would've been able to handle it just fine, especially when you consider the fact that he has three years of experience with the Wraith while Sam has zero. As far as we know, until "Reunion", she had never even seen a Wraith before. Are you really arguing that Sam was more fit for the mission that Lorne?

Not to mention, again I must point out, her choice for her team for the mission. One jumper of randoms to draw off the Wraiths in darts (and each dart only contains, like, one Wraith, so it's not like they lost many of them) and then a team consisting of herself, a wounded Ronon, two Red Shirts and an unarmed scientist. Yes... spectacular.


Yes the risk existed and Sam is that character that take a risk when necesarey, not only speak on city wide about the bravery of others.
She was showing us rampant stupidity, not bravery. If my boss ran off headfirst into battle without any prior experience with the situation while a city was full of people with years of experience in said field and also chose the most ridiculous team to mount a rescue mission, I would question their sanity and my morale would sink to new lows. I would be afraid of the day when my leader finally snapped and ordered us all to do the macarena while darts rained on our parade.


Carter has more offworld experience than anyone at Atlantis and more combat experience offworld that anyone there. In that regards, it makes perfect sense for her to be there. She's a better choice than a random Airman or Marine who'd end up being a redshirt.
Off-world experience does not make you all-knowing. She's got off-world experience from the Milky Way. It's like saying that if I had logged 9999 hours of flight time, I should be the logical choice before X-person even if I had never even seen the craft we're supposed to fly while said person had had years of experience with said craft.

You do not automatically become the world's most competent fighter against the Wraith just because you just happened to have logged 10 years of gate travel. Gate travel does not mean anything besides Gate travel. And much like you shouldn't send John off to fight the Goa'uld on his first time ever encountering one when someone at the SGC with years of prior experience in the matter was around, you shouldn't send Sam to fight the Wraith without ever even seeing one first.


Carter had only gotten there, so it's not like there was some great potato crisis that needed to be sorted out like when Jack was in command. She was still unpacking so going offworld wouldn't have affected her duties. If Jack hadn't been promoted as a way to give RDA more free time, I could have seen Jack doing the same from time to time as a General.
Yes because let's assume nothing could possibly have turned up while Sam was away and that makes it all better.


As for Zelenka, he has the gene therefor he'd be needed to use the scanner (unless you want to risk the pilot) and if they came across a locked door like Rodney did, Carter wouldn't have a clue while Zelenka has the most experience with Wraith technology next to McKay.
As has already been stated, Radek does not have the gene. The therapy failed for him. As far as I know, Zelenka has never been on a Hive Ship trying to unlock a locked door. All he'd know about the procedure, he'd know from reports. And Sam is, if anything, literate. She could've read the same reports (and she should have in preparation for this operation).

saberhagen83
October 14th, 2007, 02:21 AM
I think it's a little of both here. She has plenty of off-world experience and to me she pretty much set the tone for her command, she will be more direct not simply sit behind the desk if she could help out on the field. However I doubt we will see this often, which is good. But at the same time, I agree with what has been said in here. It was lack of millitary personell on the team, and that didn't make sense to me. That Zelenka was there wasn't to big of a reach, he is after all the best they have next to Rodney and could very well be needed, and to me that also builds on his character.

Not to mention that I have no idea if this was intended to be different at first, don't know if JM has said anything about that. If it was made from the very start to have Sam go, or was perhaps Lorne thought of first, or at least to be included? The thing is that they might not have had the chance to have him included, since I'm pretty sure he has other stuff on his plate as well and might simply have been written out when they couldn't use him in the ep.

helenmagnus23
October 14th, 2007, 02:31 AM
HI:)

I think it's good sam going off world with the team she has plenty of feild expeariance and on sg-1 geenral hammond went off world so did jack and landry and evan in atlanis evan weirs gone off world she hasnt been stuck behined a desk .

I say it is good sam going off world from time to time :sam:

FallenAngelII
October 14th, 2007, 02:47 AM
I think it's a little of both here. She has plenty of off-world experience and to me she pretty much set the tone for her command, she will be more direct not simply sit behind the desk if she could help out on the field. However I doubt we will see this often, which is good. But at the same time, I agree with what has been said in here. It was lack of millitary personell on the team, and that didn't make sense to me. That Zelenka was there wasn't to big of a reach, he is after all the best they have next to Rodney and could very well be needed, and to me that also builds on his character.
We're not arguing whether or not Sam is fit to lead Atlantis (at least not in this thread). We're arguing the merits for Sam to go off on this particular mission (or off-world at all).


Not to mention that I have no idea if this was intended to be different at first, don't know if JM has said anything about that. If it was made from the very start to have Sam go, or was perhaps Lorne thought of first, or at least to be included? The thing is that they might not have had the chance to have him included, since I'm pretty sure he has other stuff on his plate as well and might simply have been written out when they couldn't use him in the ep.
Doesn't matter if they didn't have chance to have Lorne included. They could've subtituted him for someone else. Anyone but the leader of the expedition. After all, we didn't have Cadman there. The two other Tau'ri militaries were Red Shirts. How about Ronon, 3 Red Shirts and a Radek? It's not like we saw Sam do anything special. All she did was take point.

Sparky13
October 14th, 2007, 02:58 AM
From Joe Mallozzi's most recent blog entry, in which he deconstructs the episode:

"Carter leads the rescue op: Not such a stretch given her experience with SG-1, what’s at stake, and the fact that the chain of command kicks in on Atlantis (as it did whenever Weir went off-world)."

Given what he's saying here, it does make sense that Carter would go on the mission. The military commander of Atlantis prior to Carter's arrival (Sheppard) and it's chief science officer (McKay) have been taken hostage by the Wraith. That's a really big deal. I don't know anything about military chain of command, but maybe she was required to go.

saberhagen83
October 14th, 2007, 02:59 AM
We're not arguing whether or not Sam is fit to lead Atlantis (at least not in this thread). We're arguing the merits for Sam to go off on this particular mission (or off-world at all).

Where have I argued if it's right or wrong for her to lead Atlantis?! I said it is both right and wrong for her to go on the rescue mission. She has the experience from off-world travel, leading a unit and combat. But at the same time she is the leader of Atlantis, and possibly shouldn't be on such a mission herself. All I said was, she marked out how she apparently will play as the leader of Atlantis, more direct and hand-on rather than behind a desk, in a time she feels she could be of assistance.



Doesn't matter if they didn't have chance to have Lorne included. They could've subtituted him for someone else.

Unfortently it's not always that easy...

FallenAngelII
October 14th, 2007, 03:05 AM
Where have I argued if it's right or wrong for her to lead Atlantis?! I said it is both right and wrong for her to go on the rescue mission. She has the experience from off-world travel, leading a unit and combat. But at the same time she is the leader of Atlantis, and possibly shouldn't be on such a mission herself. All I said was, she marked out how she apparently will play as the leader of Atlantis, more direct and hand-on rather than behind a desk, in a time she feels she could be of assistance.
Misinterpretation because you started with "She's got off-world experience, bla bla" and I kinda zoned out after that because I've seen waaaay too many posts about that to justify just about anything Sam does lately.


Unfortently it's not always that easy...
It's not? With an entire city full of military personnel with years of experience with the Wraith? If I were under Sam's command and saw her on her first day in charge of the city charge off into the unknown with only 3 fighters as backup into a situation where Atlantis' flagship team + 3 supposedly top notch Satedan Warriors had already been captured half-cocked (knowing nothing of the current situation back at the science facility) and without ever even seen a Wraith before, my morale would plummet.

A hot-headed leader who needs to prove herself and who jumps in half-cocked without information or experience when the city is crawling with people with experience in spades! There's nothing logical about Sam going off-world on this occasion.

Uber
October 14th, 2007, 03:22 AM
Misinterpretation because you started with "She's got off-world experience, bla bla" and I kinda zoned out after that because I've seen waaaay too many posts about that to justify just about anything Sam does lately.Right. It's always best for one to reply to someone and repeat the same stuff over and over without the benefit of boring ol' context.
It's not? With an entire city full of military personnel with years of experience with the Wraith? Ten years of experience fighting the Goa'uld, the replicators, the Ori, etc. etc. In this context, I don't think it matters who the bad guys are when your mission is to go in and extract your team, not try to understand the inner workings of the Wraith mindset. The P-90 cares not to whom it's aimed.
If I were under Sam's command and saw her on her first day in charge of the city charge off into the unknown with only 3 fighters as backup...There were two jumpers and the teams split up to cover more area so I doubt strongly there were as few there as you're suggesting. Sam's a battle seasoned officer who's done this thing for years.
...into a situation where Atlantis' flagship team + 3 supposedly top notch Satedan Warriors had already been captured half-cocked (knowing nothing of the current situation back at the science facility) and without ever even seen a Wraith before, my morale would plummet.Why on earth would never seeing a Wraith in person before matter? All she has to know to do is direct her team and point and shoot at the evil, life sucking aliens...which is old hat for her. And she has Ronon's latest intel from about 3 seconds before they left. I'd say that's fairly up-to-date.
A hot-headed leader who needs to prove herself and who jumps in half-cocked without information or experience when the city is crawling with people with experience in spades! There's nothing logical about Sam going off-world on this occasion.Well, you're obviously welcome to your interpretation but Carter did not come across to me as being hot headed or as being someone desperate to prove herself. And the Carter I saw was calm, cool and collected...even taking a beat in the PJ to tell Ronon she'd support whatever decision he made.

As for whether or not I thought it was logical for her to go? Sure. For this one mission...and perhaps when necessary else wise. She just left SG-1, where stuff like this is an every day thing for her so it's perfectly natural for her to jump in and do her thing.

But she does have new responsibilities...and although old habits die hard, I'm sure she'll come to a place where she recognizes she can't go offworld as much as she used to. In fact, we know that's true since she only goes off world 3 times all season.

saberhagen83
October 14th, 2007, 03:24 AM
Misinterpretation because you started with "She's got off-world experience, bla bla" and I kinda zoned out after that because I've seen waaaay too many posts about that to justify just about anything Sam does lately.

Well it often is a valid reason, wheter you like it or not...


It's not? With an entire city full of military personnel with years of experience with the Wraith? If I were under Sam's command and saw her on her first day in charge of the city charge off into the unknown with only 3 fighters as backup into a situation where Atlantis' flagship team + 3 supposedly top notch Satedan Warriors had already been captured half-cocked (knowing nothing of the current situation back at the science facility) and without ever even seen a Wraith before, my morale would plummet.

A hot-headed leader who needs to prove herself and who jumps in half-cocked without information or experience when the city is crawling with people with experience in spades! There's nothing logical about Sam going off-world on this occasion.

That's talking like Atlantis is real. You have to remember that this isn't reality and they need actors to play the parts. If one was thought of at first, and when they had to push this episode to be filmed later...things could turn around and they may be standing empty handed in the end with little time to find a replacement so they take the easy way...and in a way it is a logical way in the end anyway. But like I said, I have no idea how that part was thought of at first, Sam to go or someone else...the only thing about this whole thing that I'm bothered about (no matter who was in charge of the team) is the lack of millitary personell.

Willow'sCat
October 14th, 2007, 03:42 AM
From Joe Mallozzi's most recent blog entry, in which he deconstructs the episode:

"Carter leads the rescue op: Not such a stretch given her experience with SG-1, what’s at stake, and the fact that the chain of command kicks in on Atlantis (as it did whenever Weir went off-world)."

Given what he's saying here, it does make sense that Carter would go on the mission. The military commander of Atlantis prior to Carter's arrival (Sheppard) and it's chief science officer (McKay) have been taken hostage by the Wraith. That's a really big deal. I don't know anything about military chain of command, but maybe she was required to go.Um, Joe helped to write this episode and he is also one the show runners. Unbiased he ain't. ;)

It still remains to be seen how often Carter does this, if it doesn't happen again until Trio then I am fine with it *mostly* but to be honest it will get old real soon if it becomes a weekly event to see her pull out the gun and put on the tact vest. I like my Atlantis leaders to stay at home, mostly unseen and preferably not interacting as if they are part of the TEAM because they are not! :mckay::rolleyes:

Really unless there is a pressing need no one else can fill the leader needs to stay at home... ;) *imho of course*

FallenAngelII
October 14th, 2007, 03:44 AM
Ten years of experience fighting the Goa'uld, the replicators, the Ori, etc. etc. In this context, I don't think it matters who the bad guys are when your mission is to go in and extract your team, not try to understand the inner workings of the Wraith mindset.
It's a very different thing to fight the Jaffa vs. fighting the Wraith. They do not use the same weapons, same technology or strategies. Thus, Sam was far from the most qualified person for the job. She's qualified to do a lot of things. But fighting the Wraith on her first day without ever encountering the Wraith before while Lorne and who knows who else are around? Hardly.

And she is still the leader of Atlantis. When accepting a high position like that, you have to accept that fact that you won't be going into the field. Leaders lead, field workers work in the fields.


The P-90 cares not to whom it's aimed.There were two jumpers and the teams split up to cover more area so I doubt strongly there were as few there as you're suggesting.
There were not two jumpers that went into the science facility! One jumper was used as a decoy to make the Darts fly off on a wild goose chase!

Meanwhile, only Sam, Ronon, Radek and two Red-Shirts actually entered the facility. Five people, one of which had never seen a Wraith before and another one of which was unarmed. Yes, how competent they were compared to a team of Ronon, Cadman, Lorne and two Red-Shirts.


Sam's a battle seasoned officer who's done this thing for years.Why on earth would never seeing a Wraith in person before matter? All she has to know to do is direct her team and point and shoot at the evil, life sucking aliens...which is old hat for her. And she has Ronon's latest intel from about 3 seconds before they left. I'd say that's fairly up-to-date.Well, you're obviously welcome to your interpretation but Carter did not come across to me as being hot headed or as being someone desperate to prove herself. And the Carter I saw was calm, cool and collected...even taking a beat in the PJ to tell Ronon she'd support whatever decision he made.
Calm, cool and collected people would've realized that it's not their place, as leaders, to jump into a hostile situation where they might die (and especially not to take point and be the first to go) when the city had just lost a beloved leader of 4 years!

And I wasn't the one who originally claimed she needed to prove herself. The "Sam did the right thing"-side brought that ludicrous statement forth as an argument for why she did the right thing.


As for whether or not I thought it was logical for her to go? Sure. For this one mission...and perhaps when necessary else wise. She just left SG-1, where stuff like this is an every day thing for her so it's perfectly natural for her to jump in and do her thing.
She has accepted a position where it's not her job, responsibility or duty to go off-world when the situation is hostile and could result in casualties. Her job is to stay on Atlantis and lead the city.


But she does have new responsibilities...and although old habits die hard, I'm sure she'll come to a place where she recognizes she can't go offworld as much as she used to. In fact, we know that's true since she only goes off world 3 times all season.
Yes, because that makes it all better. All habits die hard.

Yes. But that doens't change the fact that in this case, she did wrong. What she'll do in the future, how fresh she is to the job, no matter what, what she did in this case was still wrong (IMO).


That's talking like Atlantis is real. You have to remember that this isn't reality and they need actors to play the parts. If one was thought of at first, and when they had to push this episode to be filmed later...things could turn around and they may be standing empty handed in the end with little time to find a replacement so they take the easy way...and in a way it is a logical way in the end anyway. But like I said, I have no idea how that part was thought of at first, Sam to go or someone else...the only thing about this whole thing that I'm bothered about (no matter who was in charge of the team) is the lack of millitary personell.
Yes, let's ignore logic because the PTB are lazy.

They could've just grabbed any random Canadian actor and stuck them fatigues, given then a P-90 and have them go instead of Sam. They could be the leader of SGA-12 for all I care. The leader does not go off-world unless, especially not into a hostile situation and escpially not taking point (being the first to go under fire) unless the situation requires for it to be so.

And in this case, Sam had an entire city full of qualified personnel better suited than her to go.

saberhagen83
October 14th, 2007, 04:34 AM
And in this case, Sam had an entire city full of qualified personnel better suited than her to go.

Entire city? Haven't you stated before that most of the people on Atlantis are only scientists...this isn't a millitary mission and so on. For all we know Sam could have been the most qualified on Atlantis to lead the mission. We have only seen them establish Sheppards and Lornes teams as Gate-teams. Most of the other millitary personell we see on Atlantis here and there could be mostly security personell, that doesn't go off-world very often. OR even more simply could be that there are teams off-world with people that could be better suited for this mission.

About what you said about Sam not knowing the Wraith, their wepons and tactics. Don't you think she would have been reading up on them, studying them with what the Atlantis mission has sent to Earth, all that information about them. Not to mention that the Wraith very often use a very similar weapon to that of Zats, they don't want to kill their victims instantly, so they simply "shock" them...it's very much Goa'uld-ish who even used staff weapons that actually kills.

I gave my opinion about this matter, and I see it as 50/50. There is no right or wrong here IMHO. It's in between as we don't have all the facts anyway.

FallenAngelII
October 14th, 2007, 06:24 AM
Entire city? Haven't you stated before that most of the people on Atlantis are only scientists...this isn't a millitary mission and so on. For all we know Sam could have been the most qualified on Atlantis to lead the mission. We have only seen them establish Sheppards and Lornes teams as Gate-teams. Most of the other millitary personell we see on Atlantis here and there could be mostly security personell, that doesn't go off-world very often. OR even more simply could be that there are teams off-world with people that could be better suited for this mission.
Are you seriously claiming now that with that many military people on Atlantis (not a majority, but many), every single one of them who had prior experience with the Wraith were somehow unavailable, forcing Sam to go?

We only saw SG-1 during 10 years of Stargate SG-1. Occasionally, we'd see some random teams like SG-12, but not often. Does that mean that SG-1 only had, like, a handful of SG-teams that went off world?


About what you said about Sam not knowing the Wraith, their wepons and tactics. Don't you think she would have been reading up on them, studying them with what the Atlantis mission has sent to Earth, all that information about them. Not to mention that the Wraith very often use a very similar weapon to that of Zats, they don't want to kill their victims instantly, so they simply "shock" them...it's very much Goa'uld-ish who even used staff weapons that actually kills.
Reading about them does not equal having first hand experience about them. Lorne, Cadman and any number of people on Atlantis were more qualified or at least qualified. Even if Sam were the most qualified person for the mission, which I maintain she wasn't, as leader of Atlantis, she should not go out unless the situation really calls for her presence. She should send out the "lesser important" first (like Lorne or Cadman).

Sam, as the leader of Atlantis, should not have put herself in that position while there were others to send out. And you're not seriously claiming that every single person who had prior experience engaging the Wraith were unavailable, are you?

Also, it does not matter if the Wraith stun and don't kill. If she's on the frontline, she'll be the first one to go (logically) if they engage the Wraith. The people in the back of the line might be able to escape should they have to, but Sam will be among the first ones to be stunned and fed upon should the Wraith feel hungry.

And the fact she'd be the first one to get captured is bad enough.


I gave my opinion about this matter, and I see it as 50/50. There is no right or wrong here IMHO. It's in between as we don't have all the facts anyway.
If that's your angle now, then we can't never really discuss anything regarding the show because we almost never have all the facts about anything.

saberhagen83
October 14th, 2007, 06:47 AM
Are you seriously claiming now that with that many military people on Atlantis (not a majority, but many), every single one of them who had prior experience with the Wraith were somehow unavailable, forcing Sam to go?

We only saw SG-1 during 10 years of Stargate SG-1. Occasionally, we'd see some random teams like SG-12, but not often. Does that mean that SG-1 only had, like, a handful of SG-teams that went off world?

Why not, it's not that big of a stretch. We've heard plenty of times on SG1 that a big number of teams have been off-world at the same time. Giving limited resources for rescue missions etc. Even Hammond went off-world at least once to rescue SG1. I'm sure he too had more qualified personell to do that at his disposal, but chose to do it himself. Putting himself at risk as well, as commander of SGC.



Reading about them does not equal having first hand experience about them. Lorne, Cadman and any number of people on Atlantis were more qualified or at least qualified.

Sam, as the leader of Atlantis, should not have put herself in that position while there were others to send out. And you're not seriously claiming that every single person who had prior experience engaging the Wraith were unavailable, are you?

So every single person that goes out to war with some country or whatever have all the knowledge about them? I'm not saying she has more experience with the Wraith, but she has enough experience about combat situations.

And again why not? If Atlantis doesn't have that many Gate-teams, like SGC had. It's not at all impossible to see many of them off-world. And not anyone would be trusted to lead such a operation, no matter how much they have gone up against the Wraith. We don't know how many Majors or Colonels they have at Atlantis.


Also, it does not matter if the Wraith stun and don't kill. If she's on the frontline, she'll be the first one to go (logically) if they engage the Wraith. The people in the back of the line might be able to escape should they have to, but Sam will be among the first ones to be stunned and fed upon should the Wraith feel hungry.

And the fact she'd be the first one to get captured is bad enough.

It's a risky job, for any of the teams. No difference if she is head of Atlantis or Sheppard that is otherwise highest ranking officer on Atlantis.



If that's your angle now, then we can't never really discuss anything regarding the show because we almost never have all the facts about anything.

Yes it would be great if we could discuss this normally. But I always get the feeling with your posts that you just keep twisting everything into your advantage, no matter how far fetched it is. Not to mention most of your posts have a hostile tone to them. More or less it's you are right and everyone that sees things differently are wrong. And it just goes around and around...what kind of discussion is that then??

FallenAngelII
October 14th, 2007, 07:03 AM
Why not, it's not that big of a stretch. We've heard plenty of times on SG1 that a big number of teams have been off-world at the same time. Giving limited resources for rescue missions etc. Even Hammond went off-world at least once to rescue SG1. I'm sure he too had more qualified personell to do that at his disposal, but chose to do it himself. Putting himself at risk as well, as commander of SGC.
In "Doppelganger", Sam says they had to tell all of their teams off-world to stay off-world for the moment. Which means they had multiple teams off-world. Assuming that not every single team was off-world at the moment, they had a few teams back on Atlantis as well. Assuming these two things, there should've been a least a couple of people (Lorne, Cadman, etc.) capable of doing what Sam did in "Reunion" instead of having Sam rush off.


So every single person that goes out to war with some country or whatever have all the knowledge about them? I'm not saying she has more experience with the Wraith, but she has enough experience about combat situations.
They have more knowledge about that particular country and their warriors than someone who juts got there and read about them. And you don't think the military personnel on Atlantis have any combat experience? That they'd ship off people without prior combat experience to Atlantis for fun?


And again why not? If Atlantis doesn't have that many Gate-teams, like SGC had. It's not at all impossible to see many of them off-world. And not anyone would be trusted to lead such a operation, no matter how much they have gone up against the Wraith. We don't know how many Majors or Colonels they have at Atlantis.
But now you're basing your argument on assumptions. Lack of evidence does not mean evidence. You can't say "We haven't seen or heard of an SGA-12, so there must be less than 5 teams". It's like saying "I've never seen or heard of the characters going to the bathroom, so they must have been genetically enhanced to not have to".


It's a risky job, for any of the teams. No difference if she is head of Atlantis or Sheppard that is otherwise highest ranking officer on Atlantis.
That's the point. It's a very risky sitaution. One which the new leader of Atlantis, who just took over after the old one was lost in battle, does not need to put herself into first thing she does. And she certainly does not need to be at the front of the line!


Yes it would be great if we could discuss this normally. But I always get the feeling with your posts that you just keep twisting everything into your advantage, no matter how far fetched it is. Not to mention most of your posts have a hostile tone to them. More or less it's you are right and everyone that sees things differently are wrong. And it just goes around and around...what kind of discussion is that then??
Yes, let's tone it down, shall we. Let's argue like we're unsure of ourselves and our own arguments, like we're guessing and making baseless assumptions. I don't want to keep such a tone, thus, I don't.

saberhagen83
October 14th, 2007, 07:22 AM
And you don't think the military personnel on Atlantis have any combat experience? That they'd ship off people without prior combat experience to Atlantis for fun?

Where have I said that?! What I said was that there might not have been someone on Atlantis at that time that should be trusted with such a mission. Someone that has experience leading a team (Sheppard, Sam or Lorne for example) should handle such an operation. Not someone that has 0 experience leading a unit, not the best mission to start of with...



But now you're basing your argument on assumptions. Lack of evidence does not mean evidence. You can't say "We haven't seen or heard of an SGA-12, so there must be less than 5 teams". It's like saying "I've never seen or heard of the characters going to the bathroom, so they must have been genetically enhanced to not have to".

:rolleyes: Sounds familiar doesn't it? Where have I said it was evidence?? It's the same as you, you make the assumption there was someone enough qualified to take on that mission. But can you prove it? No? Neither can I. That is why I am 50/50 on her going on that mission. We were told how many units there was at SGC, we have no idea (as far as I know) how many units there are at Atlantis.

I can understand why some people think she shouldn't have gone. But I can also understand why she went.



That's the point. It's a very risky sitaution. One which the new leader of Atlantis, who just took over after the old one was lost in battle, does not need to put herself into first thing she does. And she certainly does not need to be at the front of the line!

But as leader of Atlantis that is her choise to make. Unless IOA or someone else have told her NOT to get involved in such matters.

FallenAngelII
October 14th, 2007, 07:25 AM
But as leader of Atlantis that is her choise to make. Unless IOA or someone else have told her NOT to get involved in such matters.
And this means what, really?

If Sam feels like blowing up Atlantis. That's her decision to make as well. Doesn't mean it's right. As leader of Atlantis, of course it's her decision to make.

However, I am free to criticize said decision and "It's her choice to make" isn't really a valid defense. We're discussing whether it's right that she made said choice, not whether she had the right to make it.

saberhagen83
October 14th, 2007, 07:30 AM
And this means what, really?

If Sam feels like blowing up Atlantis. That's her decision to make as well. Doesn't mean it's right. As leader of Atlantis, of course it's her decision to make.

However, I am free to criticize said decision and "It's her choice to make" isn't really a valid defense. We're discussing whether it's right that she made said choice, not whether she had the right to make it.

Kind of different thing don't you think? I've never said you have to accept that she went on the mission. If you feel she did completely wrong, then okay. I don't mind that. I've only stated my own opinion here.

FallenAngelII
October 14th, 2007, 07:36 AM
Kind of different thing don't you think? I've never said you have to accept that she went on the mission. If you feel she did completely wrong, then okay. I don't mind that. I've only stated my own opinion here.
Yes, but still. We have our opinions. But the argument "It's her decision to make" is a faulty argument I've seen thrown around far too much (not just when it comes to Sam, just things in general. "It's their decision to make!"... as if that's relevant or changes anything).

cavalierlwt
October 14th, 2007, 10:35 AM
I think the pros and cons have reached their consensus on it. Stuff like this really keeps the writers on their toes. At least they know we're paying attention and giving the show some thought!

prion
October 14th, 2007, 10:52 AM
And she is still the leader of Atlantis. When accepting a high position like that, you have to accept that fact that you won't be going into the field. Leaders lead, field workers work in the fields.

And in this case, Sam had an entire city full of qualified personnel better suited than her to go.

WHen people get promoted upwards, they don't go out in the field, or down to the trenches. They get to sit behind a desk and send other people off to the field.

Well, at least half the city was qualified. They have to have more than a dozen military personnel, after all, they need to protect the scientists. I'd say at least a third of the folks there are military, so yes, there had to have been someone there. Realistically, what did Carter do that any other 'red shirt' could'nt have done? All she did was toss in a flashbang, but otherwise, anybody else could have done that particular job. The writers wanted her there, and well, that's why she was there. Integrate the character, have the viewers accept her on the show, etc. It's pretty simple. Not necessarily logical, but simple.

Oh, and can folks not post Doppelganger spoilers here? not everyone has seen it ;)

elbo
October 14th, 2007, 11:44 AM
The commander of a military facility like Atlantis, can go in missions. There is no rule to prohibit this.

The important missions, like this one is imperative to be lead by the ranking officer or the officer with the biggest experience in the field or those sort of missions, and this is ... Samantha Carter.

Yes, this is another the reason why the command of Atlantis was given to Sam, a character who acumulated a huge combat/field experience that can be used in certain situatuations and provide more writing solutions.

If TPTB would have wanted a desk bureaucrat with superiority complexes, they would have kept Weir or bring another black suit or red blouse to dramatise every situation. If you are arguing every thing related to Sam, you in fact arguing the decision to bring Sam over to Atlantis. I think we pass that, there is no return, TPTB already made the call. We now can either whine or enjoy the show.

And don't expect TPTB to destroy Sam's character, but to enrich it. I expect her to go off-world in situations even less logical than this one who was in fact a obligation, because Sam is not that character to stay in her office when her friends or flag team are in need and she is the most qualified person to help. Weir would have done the same thing if she would have the expertise, in fact she did the same thing, in 'Lifeline' when she left the jumper.

And also don't forget that Lorne is not main cast and Sam is, no matter how much some of you would want, so i don't expect to see Lorne more than Sam. The question is, why do you?

elbo
October 14th, 2007, 12:15 PM
WHen people get promoted upwards, they don't go out in the field, or down to the trenches. They get to sit behind a desk and send other people off to the field.

Sam is a full bird colonel. With the same rank, Jack didn't even knew he had an office in SG1.

If by 'promotion' you are reffering to commander of a base like SGC or Atlantis, is true that there is some desk work involved but there is no rule to prohibit the commander to participate in missions form time to time, is special circumstances, because in normal circumstances i don't remember Sam being part of any Atlantis 4 members team, so we can't speak actually about field work how you say, can't we?



Well, at least half the city was qualified. They have to have more than a dozen military personnel, after all, they need to protect the scientists. I'd say at least a third of the folks there are military, so yes, there had to have been someone there. Realistically, what did Carter do that any other 'red shirt' could'nt have done? All she did was toss in a flashbang, but otherwise, anybody else could have done that particular job. The writers wanted her there, and well, that's why she was there. Integrate the character, have the viewers accept her on the show, etc. It's pretty simple. Not necessarily logical, but simple.

There are more degrees of qualification and Sam had the highest in those type of missions, plus she was briefed by Ronon and would have been a waste of important time to brief again someonelse less qualified.

silkie
October 14th, 2007, 12:34 PM
Sam shouldn't have gone on the rescue mission! If captured then who was going to lead Atlantis - Chuck? Not to mention that we'd have lost Rodney, her and Zelenka - the top 3 lead scientists Earth has!
I can understand why she made the emotional decision to lead the rescue mission - she wanted to prove herself to Atlantis personnel (especially Ronon), but that doesn't mean I support her decision. Guess when your hubby is head of HWS you can get away with anything... ;)

Cautious Explorer
October 14th, 2007, 12:43 PM
The commander of a military facility like Atlantis, can go in missions. There is no rule to prohibit this.

The important missions, like this one is imperative to be lead by the ranking officer or the officer with the biggest experience in the field or those sort of missions, and this is ... Samantha Carter.

What exactly was it about this mission that required Carter's presence as opposed to a gate team already stationed in Atlantis with previous experience dealing with the Wraith, and working with Sheppard's team?

This was her first day in a new position, among people she hadn't worked with before, in an unfamiliar galaxy, fighting an enemy she had never met. Where exactly does her special expertise come in?

Someone capable of command should have the wisdom to step aside when there are more experienced people available.

On the mission, Carter sat in the passenger seat, said "Thank you" to the pilot of the other jumper, threw a flash grenade, fired a gun after Zelenka pointed out an energy source, and opened a cell door. Did that require extensive knowledge of Ancient tech, Asgard tech? Did it require past experience from fighting Milky Way villains? No. Ronon, Zelenka and an experienced Atlantis team were more than capable of completing the mission.

Just because she can do something, doesn't mean it's the smart thing to do. Maybe she wanted to prove herself in her new command, maybe she didn't like staying back and waiting, maybe she doesn't trust anybody but herself to do things right. I don't think she was there because she was best qualified to go.



And don't expect TPTB to destroy Sam's character, but to enrich it. I expect her to go off-world in situations even less logical than this one who was in fact a obligation, because Sam is not that character to stay in her office when her friends or flag team are in need and she is the most qualified person to help. Weir would have done the same thing if she would have the expertise, in fact she did the same thing, in 'Lifeline' when she left the jumper.

And also don't forget that Lorne is not main cast and Sam is, no matter how much some of you would want, so i don't expect to see Lorne more than Sam. The question is, why do you?

I don't expect TPTB to destroy Carter's character. Letting her make intelligent decisions as a leader would be a good start to building her character. They are writing her in as leader of Atlantis, not leader of a gate team, so it's not unreasonable to expect her to act accordingly.

As much as I prefer Lorne to Carter, I don't expect him to get more screen time. For good or bad Carter is part of the main cast now. I'm hoping her presence doesn't cut into the parts that characters like Lorne and Zelenka play. That would be a big loss.

elbo
October 14th, 2007, 01:19 PM
Sam is one of the top Earth scientists from the start of SG-1. This however didn't stop her from participating to every SG1 mission in the Goa'uld/Replicator/Ori arcs.

Same as Rodney even not military was participating in almost all SGA missions, including this one of infiltration in a Wraith weapon facility.

Sam along with the others SG1 members state very cleary that steping through the gate comes always with a risk that is acceptable. Sam is also a military commander now and she has a responsability about the personal under her command. If you don't understand this, i'm sorry, i'm out of this. Just to say that even if it was no obligation for her to lead this mission, she had the right to decide, being a CO, and in my opinion she made the right/logical call. If an unfortunate accident would have happened, now that there is a ZPM powering the both Atlantis and Earth gates a new base commander would have been appointed. Is not like they were cut off from Eath. End of story.

FallenAngelII
October 14th, 2007, 01:23 PM
elbo, please read through the last couple of pages before posting anything else. You're repeating (by now) stale arguments which have been dwelled upon for pages upon pages. And we've already argued your points to death (on both sides).

Cautious Explorer
October 14th, 2007, 01:35 PM
Sam is one of the top Earth scientists from the start of SG-1. This however didn't stop her from participating to every SG1 mission in the Goa'uld/Replicator/Ori arcs.

Same as Rodney even not military was participating in almost all SGA missions, including this one of infiltration in a Wraith weapon facility.

Sam along with the others SG1 members state very cleary that steping through the gate comes always with a risk that is acceptable. Sam is also a military commander now and she has a responsability about the personal under her command. If you don't understand this, i'm sorry, i'm out of this. Just to say that even if it was no obligation for her to lead this mission, she had the right to decide, being a CO, and in my opinion she made the right/logical call. If an unfortunate accident would have happened, now that there is a ZPM powering the both Atlantis and Earth gates a new base commander would have been appointed. Is not like they were cut off from Eath. End of story.

The question here isn't if it's logical for top scientists like Rodney or Carter to be on a gate team. No one is asking if Carter, as commander, has the authority to insert herself in an off-world mission. The question being asked is if it's logical for her to do so. I don't think so.

There was nothing about this mission that required her presence. There was nothing on this mission that couldn't have been done as well or better by someone else.

I understand very well that she has a responsiblity to the personnel under her command. That responsibility should include knowing when to bow out and let those with the knowldege and experience for the situation do the job. Delagating and making smart decisions is also part of command.

elbo
October 14th, 2007, 01:41 PM
What exactly was it about this mission that required Carter's presence as opposed to a gate team already stationed in Atlantis with previous experience dealing with the Wraith, and working with Sheppard's team?

This was her first day in a new position, among people she hadn't worked with before, in an unfamiliar galaxy, fighting an enemy she had never met. Where exactly does her special expertise come in?

Someone capable of command should have the wisdom to step aside when there are more experienced people available.

On the mission, Carter sat in the passenger seat, said "Thank you" to the pilot of the other jumper, threw a flash grenade, fired a gun after Zelenka pointed out an energy source, and opened a cell door. Did that require extensive knowledge of Ancient tech, Asgard tech? Did it require past experience from fighting Milky Way villains? No. Ronon, Zelenka and an experienced Atlantis team were more than capable of completing the mission.

Just because she can do something, doesn't mean it's the smart thing to do. Maybe she wanted to prove herself in her new command, maybe she didn't like staying back and waiting, maybe she doesn't trust anybody but herself to do things right. I don't think she was there because she was best qualified to go.

What are you talking about? Sam participate to tens of rescuing/infiltration missions in SG1. If i count all the situations/mission of Atlantis teams, except the Sheppard's team (captured) i don't get not even 10% of what Sam did along with SG1. I even don't remember at least one succesfull mission rescuing and not only presented to us in SGA and made by another team than Shepp's.

And yes, the mission resulted to me much easier than expected. And if you like to judge everything about effects, then please also judge the fact that the mission was a complete success with no casualities, all the people rescued and retroactive speaking Sam made the right call.



I don't expect TPTB to destroy Carter's character. Letting her make intelligent decisions as a leader would be a good start to building her character. They are writing her in as leader of Atlantis, not leader of a gate team, so it's not unreasonable to expect her to act accordingly.

Unfortunately, you didn't saw a real leader in the previous 3 seasons. None of us saw. An appropiate leader for this PG situation Atlantis has only starting with S4. And in 'Reunion' Sam made a inteligent decision which ended rescuing the team.

The previous rescuing mission in CG ended with a 100 years old Sheppard and some 'abracadabra' reset button. Get the difference?

Uber
October 14th, 2007, 02:00 PM
It's a very different thing to fight the Jaffa vs. fighting the Wraith. They do not use the same weapons, same technology or strategies. Thus, Sam was far from the most qualified person for the job. She's qualified to do a lot of things. But fighting the Wraith on her first day without ever encountering the Wraith before while Lorne and who knows who else are around? Hardly.I don't agree. In this case for this rescue/recovery mission, Sam was perfect for the role as it's what she's done for years versus a variety of aliens and unknowns.
And she is still the leader of Atlantis. When accepting a high position like that, you have to accept that fact that you won't be going into the field. Leaders lead, field workers work in the fields.To some extent yes...and for a civilian commander, certainly. Carter however is a battle seasoned officer who has the chops and the tenure to plan and execute the rescue.
There were not two jumpers that went into the science facility! One jumper was used as a decoy to make the Darts fly off on a wild goose chase!Which was a pretty good strategy then since it worked.
Meanwhile, only Sam, Ronon, Radek and two Red-Shirts actually entered the facility. Five people, one of which had never seen a Wraith before and another one of which was unarmed. Yes, how competent they were compared to a team of Ronon, Cadman, Lorne and two Red-Shirts.Small incursion teams are sometimes more effective than bringing in a large force...as is yet again proven here. And again...it doesn't matter who she's shooting or if she's seen one before. They take aim at her and she can kill them just as dead as the Goa'uld, Jaffa or soldiers of the Ori.
Calm, cool and collected people would've realized that it's not their place, as leaders, to jump into a hostile situation where they might die (and especially not to take point and be the first to go) when the city had just lost a beloved leader of 4 years!And had it been some newbie without a decade of pulling off such missions, I might agree. But she does have the experience and the training to do what she did and she and her team got them out.
And I wasn't the one who originally claimed she needed to prove herself. The "Sam did the right thing"-side brought that ludicrous statement forth as an argument for why she did the right thing.I don't agree with the assertion regardless of who suggested it.
She has accepted a position where it's not her job, responsibility or duty to go off-world when the situation is hostile and could result in casualties. Her job is to stay on Atlantis and lead the city.LOL So you know the specifics of her position, do you? Unless there's some edict somewhere denying her the choice to go offworld when she feels it's necessary, all you're doing is making assumptions based on your own biases.
Yes, because that makes it all better. All habits die hard.Actually, I said "old habits die hard"...meaning, it's what she's done for years and years so it's natural that her first instinct is to jump in and get her hands dirty. And while I don't think that's the most prudent choice for her to make all the time, I thought it was perfectly reasonable in this case.
Yes. But that doens't change the fact that in this case, she did wrong. What she'll do in the future, how fresh she is to the job, no matter what, what she did in this case was still wrong (IMO).I'll continue to not agree with you. She's not some bureaucrat who's never held a weapon before who decides to go off and launch a mission to rescue her team. She's an officer who's been serving on the front lines for a decade who responded to the emergency and rescued her team.
Yes, let's ignore logic because the PTB are lazy.I'm not entirely certain your definition of "logic" is the same as mine.
They could've just grabbed any random Canadian actor and stuck them fatigues, given then a P-90 and have them go instead of Sam. They could be the leader of SGA-12 for all I care. The leader does not go off-world unless, especially not into a hostile situation and escpially not taking point (being the first to go under fire) unless the situation requires for it to be so.

And in this case, Sam had an entire city full of qualified personnel better suited than her to go.Again, you're mixing in real world issues with inverse issues. And I'm sorry, I just don't agree with you. The rescue further establishes Sam as being someone willing and able to jump into the action when she feels the need to do so and not just someone who will sit idly on the sidelines when she can make a difference.

Seeing her there as part of the rescue had a heck of a lot more resonance emotionally than seeing random red shirt number 2 leading the group.

elbo
October 14th, 2007, 02:01 PM
The question here isn't if it's logical for top scientists like Rodney or Carter to be on a gate team. No one is asking if Carter, as commander, has the authority to insert herself in an off-world mission. The question being asked is if it's logical for her to do so. I don't think so.

There was nothing about this mission that required her presence. There was nothing on this mission that couldn't have been done as well or better by someone else.

I understand very well that she has a responsiblity to the personnel under her command. That responsibility should include knowing when to bow out and let those with the knowldege and experience for the situation do the job. Delagating and making smart decisions is also part of command.

Comme on, we are playing the same drum over and over again. Pro/Anti Sam. Do you sincerly have a problem with a scientist or scientist/military going in a mission where he COULD be shoted or stuned?

It depends on the nature of the mission. When making a support mission, infiltration, the skills of a scientists are even more requierd than anyone else. The type of this mission was rescuing, and in this domain Sam was the most qualified.

Of course that puting, let's say Rodney in front line is not very wise. He can be captured and he has no kind of training in resisting interogation and stuff. But you don't considerate that those people have free will and FRIENDS, are not some socks that we use them when and where we want. They have the right to decide for themself if they want to be part of a team or stationary in the city like Zelenka is or on Earth like many others.

Cautious Explorer
October 14th, 2007, 02:07 PM
What are you talking about? Sam participate to tens of rescuing/infiltration missions in SG1. If i count all the situations/mission of Atlantis teams, except the Sheppard's team (captured) i don't get not even 10% of what Sam did along with SG1. I even don't remember at least one succesfull mission rescuing and not only presented to us in SGA and made by another team than Shepp's.

And yes, the mission resulted to me much easier than expected. And if you like to judge everything about effects, then please also judge the fact that the mission was a complete success with no casualities, all the people rescued and retroactive speaking Sam made the right call.

What am I talking about? Sam Carter in Atlantis. We are talking about the rescue mission in Reunion, correct? What Carter did in the Milky Way as part of a gate team is not the same as what Carter should be doing in a new galaxy as the commander of Atlantis.

Since SG-1 was the main focus of their show and Sheppard's team is the main focus of SGA, I don't doubt that you haven't seen a lot of activity from other teams. That doesn't mean there are no other gate teams, or that they just sit around Atlantis or the SGC all day with nothing to do.

The mission was a success, that's true. Carter didn't save the team single-handedly, nor did she bungle the mission. IMO the mission would have been just as successful if Carter had stayed on Atlantis and someone else had gone in her place. There was absolutely nothing about this mission that required the special expertise of Sam Carter, either military or scientific. Just because it wasn't a spectacular failure doesn't mean it was the best decision.



Unfortunately, you didn't saw a real leader in the previous 3 seasons. None of us saw. An appropiate leader for this PG situation Atlantis has only starting with S4. And in 'Reunion' Sam made a inteligent decision which ended rescuing the team.

The previous rescuing mission in CG ended with a 100 years old Sheppard and some 'abracadabra' reset button. Get the difference?


Are you suggesting that Common Ground would have had a different outcome had Sam Carter been at the helm? What do you think she would have done differently? Figured out the gate address where Rodney couldn't? Cut a deal with Kolya?

elbo
October 14th, 2007, 02:28 PM
What am I talking about? Sam Carter in Atlantis. We are talking about the rescue mission in Reunion, correct? What Carter did in the Milky Way as part of a gate team is not the same as what Carter should be doing in a new galaxy as the commander of Atlantis.

Since SG-1 was the main focus of their show and Sheppard's team is the main focus of SGA, I don't doubt that you haven't seen a lot of activity from other teams. That doesn't mean there are no other gate teams, or that they just sit around Atlantis or the SGC all day with nothing to do.

The mission was a success, that's true. Carter didn't save the team single-handedly, nor did she bungle the mission. IMO the mission would have been just as successful if Carter had stayed on Atlantis and someone else had gone in her place. There was absolutely nothing about this mission that required the special expertise of Sam Carter, either military or scientific. Just because it wasn't a spectacular failure doesn't mean it was the best decision.

As you say Sam didn't go alone, was accompanied by 1,2 SGA teams. Is just that she was in charge of the mission. Like i said, i think that the situation required someone with a higher rank than major, to coordonate it, not speaking about field experience. Maby was missed, but the rest of Atlantis teams has quite few encouters with the Wraith, from which we trieid in fact to hide for the last 3 seasons. Is not like SGC/Goa'uld relation, is totally different.

And i repeat if Sheppard and his team would have been available, Sam would have not participate to the rescue. Only this team has a decent experience.



Are you suggesting that Common Ground would have had a different outcome had Sam Carter been at the helm? What do you think she would have done differently? Figured out the gate address where Rodney couldn't? Cut a deal with Kolya?

I can't say for sure of course, but i can speculate. Sam is not the character to need 9 hours to reach a simple decison, the only decision in that situation: leting Ladon Radim leave to question his prisoners. Waiting 9 hours to FINALY do the same thing, trust him and leting him go, resulted practicaly in Sheppard death without the reset button

You cannot keep a demnitary prisoner like a potential bargain chip or for torture (?) and on the other hand throw the clisee 'we don't negociate with terorists'. That's hypocrisy.

Cautious Explorer
October 14th, 2007, 02:50 PM
As you say Sam didn't go alone, was accompanied by 1,2 SGA teams. Is just that she was in charge of the mission. Like i said, i think that the situation required someone with a higher rank than major, to coordonate it, not speaking about field experience. Maby was missed, but the rest of Atlantis teams has quite few encouters with the Wraith, from which we trieid in fact to hide for the last 3 seasons. Is not like SGC/Goa'uld relation, is totally different.

And i repeat if Sheppard and his team would have been available, Sam would have not participate to the rescue. Only this team has a decent experience.


Interesting logic. No one with a rank less than lt. col. should coordinate a rescue mission? Regardless of how much field experience a major might have, he shouldn't lead a rescue mission?

Major Lorne led the search for Sheppard's team in Lost Boys. Major Sheppard led the military contingent on Atlantis the first year of their mission. I don't think either one of them were incompetent.

I think the rescue mission could have been handled quite easily by the SGA teams -- no Col. necessary.

I don't know where you're getting the idea that no other team except Sheppard's has off-world experience. What do you think the other teams do all day?

I'm not following your last remark. The Atlantis expedition does have a lot of experience with the Wraith. They haven't just been hiding and running from them. How does Carter's experience with the Goa'uld relate here?



I can't say for sure of course, but i can speculate. Sam is not the character to need 9 hours to reach a simple decison, the only decision in that situation: leting Ladon Radim leave to question his prisoners. Waiting 9 hours to FINALY do the same thing, trust him and leting him go, resulted practicaly in Sheppard death without the result button

You cannot keep a demnitary prisoner like a potential bargain chip or for torture (?) and on the other hand throw the clisee 'we don't negociate with terorists'. That's hypocrisy.

Carter would have done whatever the writers needed her to do. But sure, we can guess what she might have done. Maybe Carter would have trusted Ladon sooner, John would have been rescued after the second feeding, retired from the airforce and a new military commander would have been sent to Atlantis. Maybe Carter would have turned Ladon over to Kolya right away. Who knows? I haven't seen Carter make any tough decisions yet, so I have no idea how she thinks.

prion
October 14th, 2007, 03:33 PM
The commander of a military facility like Atlantis, can go in missions. There is no rule to prohibit this.

The important missions, like this one is imperative to be lead by the ranking officer or the officer with the biggest experience in the field or those sort of missions, and this is ... Samantha Carter.

Yes, this is another the reason why the command of Atlantis was given to Sam, a character who acumulated a huge combat/field experience that can be used in certain situatuations and provide more writing solutions.

If TPTB would have wanted a desk bureaucrat with superiority complexes, they would have kept Weir or bring another black suit or red blouse to dramatise every situation. If you are arguing every thing related to Sam, you in fact arguing the decision to bring Sam over to Atlantis. I think we pass that, there is no return, TPTB already made the call. We now can either whine or enjoy the show.

And also don't forget that Lorne is not main cast and Sam is, no matter how much some of you would want, so i don't expect to see Lorne more than Sam. The question is, why do you?

No, the top officer doesn't go running off to save people. He/she assigns capable people to do it. The commanding officer is supposed to deal with the nasty logistics, sending people out to imminent doom, etc., not going out and doing the job themselves. That's war. Now yes, there was another jumper with potential redshirts in it (we'll assume they made it back) but the folks who have been on ATlantis for months if not years do have more knowledge of the PEgasus Galaxy and wraith ships than Sam does.

Yes, Carter should be deskbound. She signed on to LEAD the expedition, not run off and rescue them. However, the writers do love Carter to bits (any interview them overflows with praise) so I suspect Carter isn't going to be realistically stuck behind the desk (no, she'll be in her tight black leather outfit with a gun *cough*).

And yes, many of us like Lorne a lot. He's shown to be quite capable at his job, and well, at least we get some nice stuff with him in next week's episode.



There are more degrees of qualification and Sam had the highest in those type of missions, plus she was briefed by Ronon and would have been a waste of important time to brief again someonelse less qualified.

The people on Atlantis are chosen because they're very good at their jobs, and that includes the military folk. If you want to go with qualifications, the soldiers who have months/years worth of experience fighting Wraith are therefore more qualified.


Sam shouldn't have gone on the rescue mission! If captured then who was going to lead Atlantis - Chuck? Not to mention that we'd have lost Rodney, her and Zelenka - the top 3 lead scientists Earth has!
I can understand why she made the emotional decision to lead the rescue mission - she wanted to prove herself to Atlantis personnel (especially Ronon), but that doesn't mean I support her decision. Guess when your hubby is head of HWS you can get away with anything... ;)

Chuck probably knows more about Atlantis than Weir and Carter combined ;) What hubby? She's not married to Jack, and at the rate the writers are going, it'll be a deathbed wedding if they have one ;)

elbo
October 14th, 2007, 03:44 PM
Interesting logic. No one with a rank less than lt. col. should coordinate a rescue mission? Regardless of how much field experience a major might have, he shouldn't lead a rescue mission?

Major Lorne led the search for Sheppard's team in Lost Boys. Major Sheppard led the military contingent on Atlantis the first year of their mission. I don't think either one of them were incompetent.

I think the rescue mission could have been handled quite easily by the SGA teams -- no Col. necessary.

I don't know where you're getting the idea that no other team except Sheppard's has off-world experience. What do you think the other teams do all day?

I'm geting the ideea from the simple fact, that there are not more than 2-3 situations in which other team the flag team engaged the Wraith, from my viewer experience. So they cannot be consideartate Wraith experts. Neither Sam of course, but she has a lot of succesfull rescue missions in her CV from which i have knowledge off. And in this case this what it was all about.

The rank usualy go with the experience hand in hand. There are exceptions of course. I didn't say that a lower rank with vaste experience cannot lead a rescue. I just say that this case is not one of those exceptions, and both the superior experience and rank are meeting at Sam, so consequently was a logical decision, from my perspective.

I would have founded extremly annoying for Sam to let this mission, very important giving the capture, in the hands of a recurring and low experience/rank officer. In my opinion this is now how a leader should lead, this is also is not the right path for trying to integrate in the colective and earning their respect. Leading (not a sharehold company of course) is more than giving orders and sending other people in fire, but some times (SOME TIMES, ok?) doing it yourself. I understand Weir, she didn't had the expertise/training to make something like this. But Sam has and will be a shame to not use it to help the colective.



I'm not following your last remark. The Atlantis expedition does have a lot of experience with the Wraith. They haven't just been hiding and running from them. How does Carter's experience with the Goa'uld relate here?

To be honest, i have no ideea how many SGA teams are and beside Lorne and Sheppard i don't know no other team leader, at least recuring. In SG1 they started with 9, then 12 teams and if i'm not mistaken they practicaly ended with close to 20 teams, an entire army. In SGA there is practicaly no refference to other teams and what they do all day. The absolut focus is on Shepp's team, both inside and ouside the city and the writers didn't make any efforts to give the impression that the others team are good for somethingelse than becaming casualities. I don't like it but this is how it is.

An no, against Wraith, we try to hide and to cover our existence every time we see them and we engage them only if we have absolutely no other option or someone else force our hand, like in the 'Lost Bou'/'Hive' or 'Reunion' or 'Aurora' or 'Allies'/NML. We could be more aggresive, but this strategy is understandable too: we are so far from home and the Wraith have no means to reach Earth yet, are not a direct threat. With Goa'uld was a little different, they kew about us and where to find us and were in range of Earth and we have been forced to take the fight to them.

The point is that Sam previous combat/tactical/war experience is invaluable and in comparation with her, Atlantis military personal are, how Rodney will put it 'amators', exception making just Sheppard's team.



Carter would have done whatever the writers needed her to do. But sure, we can guess what she might have done. Maybe Carter would have trusted Ladon sooner, John would have been rescued after the second feeding, retired from the airforce and a new military commander would have been sent to Atlantis. Maybe Carter would have turned Ladon over to Kolya right away. Who knows? I haven't seen Carter make any tough decisions yet, so I have no idea how she thinks.

I just wanted to point out that leading an expedition of this nature require a logical/military mind and a rapidity of decision.

In that particular case, was ovious that if "we don't negociate with terorists" we also 'don't take demnitary prisoners', 'we don't torture them for information', so consequently the only other option is to let them go, to cooperate in finding the gate adress. This require few minutes not 9 hours and 3 Wraith meals. It doesn't matter what we speculate, the fact is that no real leader or in charge of something, should need 9 hours and 60 of someone years to reach to the conclunsion that 'we don't negociate with terorists' so we could as well respect the human rights too.

elbo
October 14th, 2007, 04:08 PM
No, the top officer doesn't go running off to save people. He/she assigns capable people to do it. The commanding officer is supposed to deal with the nasty logistics, sending people out to imminent doom, etc., not going out and doing the job themselves. That's war. Now yes, there was another jumper with potential redshirts in it (we'll assume they made it back) but the folks who have been on ATlantis for months if not years do have more knowledge of the PEgasus Galaxy and wraith ships than Sam does.

Yes, Carter should be deskbound. She signed on to LEAD the expedition, not run off and rescue them. However, the writers do love Carter to bits (any interview them overflows with praise) so I suspect Carter isn't going to be realistically stuck behind the desk (no, she'll be in her tight black leather outfit with a gun *cough*).

And yes, many of us like Lorne a lot. He's shown to be quite capable at his job, and well, at least we get some nice stuff with him in next week's episode.


That is you rule, i respect it. Everyone is entitled to his own rules. In reality there is no kind of rule to tie the hands of a base commander to participate to a specific mission. In SG universe, the commanders don't make a habbit of going off-world. But everyone of them, and we speak about generals, had moments in which thet've gone in rescue missions.

Your problem is not with the principle, is with the character. Sorry cannot help ya' here.

Lorne capable? He was captured by the Genii, stuned by Ford, almost fed upon by a Wraith Queen, rescue by Rodney in 'Tao of Rodney' and here his combat adventures ends from my knowledge.

And in my opinion, Carter should not be deskbounded. If Weir has so many off-world incursions just to pissed off people, make enemies and generaly to watch the landscape and make photos, Carter should be off-world at least in twice as many mission. Come on, she don't go off-world to change the air, she actualy contribute.

Willow'sCat
October 14th, 2007, 04:20 PM
Well for me the bottom line is Carter was only brought in to replace Weir... not because of what happened to Weir but because a focus group or something just as lame told SciFi/MGM and tptb that Weir wasn't working.

So now she is here, she should not be making the exact same mistakes Weir made *imho of course* she should be staying put, she should not be focusing all her efforts on SGA-1 (Hammond always gave me the impression of someone who was making decisions for all the Teams under his command) she certainly shouldn't be putting herself at such a great risk.

To me is shows she is just as incompetent as the women she is replacing. Less of the Carter!super women and more of Carter!Leader would be good in season 4. :cool:

Hell we know she can fight, even solely SGA fans can't be that ignorant. She got the promotion for a reason after all. :rolleyes:

Cautious Explorer
October 14th, 2007, 04:49 PM
I'm geting the ideea from the simple fact, that there are not more than 2-3 situations in which other team the flag team engaged the Wraith, from my viewer experience. So they cannot be consideartate Wraith experts. Neither Sam of course, but she has a lot of succesfull rescue missions in her CV from which i have knowledge off. And in this case this what it was all about.

I can agree with you that Carter is no Wraith expert. I don't agree with you that only Sheppard's team has any experience with Wraith in the Pegasus Galaxy. Just because the show doesn't have the time or resources to show what all the other teams are doing, doesn't mean they do nothing or that they don't exist.



The rank usualy go with the experience hand in hand. There are exceptions of course. I didn't say that a lower rank with vaste experience cannot lead a rescue. I just say that this case is not one of those exceptions, and both the superior experience and rank are meeting at Sam, so consequently was a logical decision, from my perspective.

I can't agree with you here. Carter's experience is in a different galaxy. She has no experience with Wraith other than what she may or may not have read in mission reports. It makes no more sense for Carter to charge in and take control in this instance than it would for Sheppard to go to the SGC and take charge of a mission against the Goa'uld when there are already perfectly qualified people there with real experience.



I would have founded extremly annoying for Sam to let this mission, very important giving the capture, in the hands of a recurring and low experience/rank officer. In my opinion this is now how a leader should lead, this is also is not the right path for trying to integrate in the colective and earning their respect. Leading (not a sharehold company of course) is more than giving orders and sending other people in fire, but some times (SOME TIMES, ok?) doing it yourself. I understand Weir, she didn't had the expertise/training to make something like this. But Sam has and will be a shame to not use it to help the colective.

You seem to be assuming that everyone except Sheppard and his team are idiots. These are the same people that have been providing support to Sheppard's team for years before Carter showed up.

A character being recurring doesn't make that character inexperienced or idiotic either. Zelenka is recurring and it's acknowledged that he is a brilliant scientist. It's not possible to show every character in the city and what they're accomplishing in every show. That doesn't mean that they aren't there working in the background.



To be honest, i have no ideea how many SGA teams are and beside Lorne and Sheppard i don't know no other team leader, at least recuring. In SG1 they started with 9, then 12 teams and if i'm not mistaken they practicaly ended with close to 20 teams, an entire army. In SGA there is practicaly no refference to other teams and what they do all day. The absolut focus is on Shepp's team, both inside and ouside the city and the writers didn't make any efforts to give the impression that the others team are good for somethingelse than becaming casualities. I don't like it but this is how it is.

An no, against Wraith, we try to hide and to cover our existence every time we see them and we engage them only if we have absolutely no other option or someone else force our hand, like in the 'Lost Bou'/'Hive' or 'Reunion' or 'Aurora' or 'Allies'/NML. We could be more aggresive, but this strategy is understandable too: we are so far from home and the Wraith have no means to reach Earth yet, are not a direct threat. With Goa'uld was a little different, they kew about us and where to find us and were in range of Earth and we have been forced to take the fight to them.

The point is that Sam previous combat/tactical/war experience is invaluable and in comparation with her, Atlantis military personal are, how Rodney will put it 'amators', exception making just Sheppard's team.

I don't think the writers intended to portray all the military personnel on Atlantis as useless cannon fodder. I certainly haven't gotten that impression.

They are trying to hide the existence of Atlantis from the Wraith, but that doesn't mean they've stopped fighting against them. I don't think it makes the Atlantis expedition any less brave than the teams at the SGC.

And everyone is an amateur compared to Carter when it comes to combat experience? I definately disagree with you on this. You seem to have a very glorified vision of Samantha Carter.



I just wanted to point out that leading an expedition of this nature require a logical/military mind and a rapidity of decision.

In that particular case, was ovious that if "we don't negociate with terorists" we also 'don't take demnitary prisoners', 'we don't torture them for information', so consequently the only other option is to let them go, to cooperate in finding the gate adress. This require few minutes not 9 hours and 3 Wraith meals. It doesn't matter what we speculate, the fact is that no real leader or in charge of something, should need 9 hours and 60 of someone years to reach to the conclunsion that 'we don't negociate with terorists' so we could as well respect the human rights too.

What do you mean by "demnitary prisoners"?

Regardless of your opinion of the prior leader, it doesn't mean the new leader is going to be infallible. I'm sure Carter will make good decisions and bad decisions too. It's too early to tell what kind of leader she will be. I'll chalk the rescue mission up as a bad decision. It's not a huge mistake and things turned out well, but it wasn't based on sound judgment either.

prion
October 14th, 2007, 05:00 PM
That is you rule, i respect it. Everyone is entitled to his own rules. In reality there is no kind of rule to tie the hands of a base commander to participate to a specific mission. In SG universe, the commanders don't make a habbit of going off-world. But everyone of them, and we speak about generals, had moments in which thet've gone in rescue missions.

Your problem is not with the principle, is with the character. Sorry cannot help ya' here.

Lorne capable? He was captured by the Genii, stuned by Ford, almost fed upon by a Wraith Queen, rescue by Rodney in 'Tao of Rodney' and here his combat adventures ends from my knowledge.

And in my opinion, Carter should not be deskbounded. If Weir has so many off-world incursions just to pissed off people, make enemies and generaly to watch the landscape and make photos, Carter should be off-world at least in twice as many mission. Come on, she don't go off-world to change the air, she actualy contribute.

If you go by that logic, then Sam is just as incapable if not more so than you perceive Lorne to be. She's been captured enough times, made the big mistake with replicarter, etc. In fact, I'm sure she's been captured more times than Lorne (seeing as how SG1 had ten years on air) ;)

Carter should be deskbound (not deskbounded, as well, not a word ;) ) because that is her job. Simple as that. She's the leader, in the same position as Hammond had at the SGC, and then Jack had at the SGC. Jack rarely went off-world (he did what, once or twice?) after he got the command. She's got a command.

What will depend on whether she goes offworld is whether the writers have the wherewithall to actually WRITE her doing her assigned job, but then they couldn't do it for Weir, so we'll probably see Sam in her leather and her P90 blasting wraith ;)

ToasterOnFire
October 14th, 2007, 06:36 PM
IMO, it's logical for Carter to go on away missions if there's a skill needed that she can perform better than pretty much everyone on Atlantis. Replicator problems? Check. Super difficult think-on-your-feet scientific problem? Sure, she can back up Rodney. ;) :P Stomping through a wraith facility to save a team member? Eh, I don't see how Carter is that better equipped than the other military people on Atlantis, especially since they've likely fought wraith and/or been in wraith facilities and she hasn't.

They just lost one leader on an away mission. Is it really that smart for the new leader to jump right into another?

Briangate78
October 14th, 2007, 08:53 PM
IMO, it's logical for Carter to go on away missions if there's a skill needed that she can perform better than pretty much everyone on Atlantis. Replicator problems? Check. Super difficult think-on-your-feet scientific problem? Sure, she can back up Rodney. ;) :P Stomping through a wraith facility to save a team member? Eh, I don't see how Carter is that better equipped than the other military people on Atlantis, especially since they've likely fought wraith and/or been in wraith facilities and she hasn't.

They just lost one leader on an away mission. Is it really that smart for the new leader to jump right into another?

I think Carter went on that mission because she thought she was still on SG-1! :p

p-pos
October 14th, 2007, 09:06 PM
no it is was not logical for carter to go on a routine rescue mission when any other marine would have done, especially since they had just lost a leader and are in the middle of war putting herself out there like that was reckless.

SG13-NightOps
October 14th, 2007, 11:31 PM
I knew this thread would come up eventually.

Trying to compare Weir and Carter is apples and oranges.
Carter is a seasoned officer - Weir is a banner waving peace activist. Of course she would never go anywhere expecting hostiles. Except....

After being put in a position where the alledgedly non hostile race she is going to negotiate with did turn hostile (Condemned), she did it again (Progeny). She knowingly walks alone into the homebase of hostiles (seige II) when Atlantis is under attack. She goes with the rest of the team to take atlantis back from the Asurans (return 2) and then they all (Weir, Shep and McKay - the leadership group) leave teyla in charge of atlantis, floating in space and cut off from everyone (lifeline) while they go try and steal a ZPM from the Asuran City - which they were lucky Carter was there else they'd all be dead!

And yet when Carter goes offworld once, with a solid plan and backup, she is evil for not staying back in charge of atlantis.

Double standards much?

Cautious Explorer
October 15th, 2007, 04:44 AM
There is no logic to Carter going on the mission other than the logic that TPTB need to reinforce what a wonderful addition Col. Carter is. Look, she's not intimidated by Ronon, she can put Rodney in his place and say no to John. And now she's going to put on a leather outfit, strap on a gun and save our heroes. See how important Carter is. See how tough Carter is. Atlanis would be lost without her. That's the logic.

SG13-NightOps
October 15th, 2007, 05:00 AM
There is no logic to Carter going on the mission other than the logic that TPTB need to reinforce what a wonderful addition Col. Carter is. Look, she's not intimidated by Ronon, she can put Rodney in his place and say no to John. And now she's going to put on a leather outfit, strap on a gun and save our heroes. See how important Carter is. See how tough Carter is. Atlanis would be lost without her. That's the logic.

That doesn't sound like logic. It sounds like sour grapes. ;)

Weir wasn't intimidated by Ronon.
Weir put Rodney in his place.
Weir said no to John.
Weir run out of the Jumper and saved our heroes and ALL of Atlantis. (Lifeline)

Again, find me something I cant parallel with Weir, and you have a logical argument.

Skydiver
October 15th, 2007, 05:44 AM
If sam were joining shep on a weekly basis, i'd have an issue with it. It's not her place any more than it is hammond's or landry's to tag along.

over the years, we did see Jack join the team at least once - it's good to be king - becaus his skills were needed, or his genes anyway.

was sam a little OTT heading off world, maybe. And if she did it every week, i'd have an issue. but if she didnt go she'd be criticized as the leader that has never even seen a wraith (even a frizzy haired one).

But i think it was also meant to be a validation to the non-sg1 viewer that, hey, atlantis has a MILITARY leader now. someone that is qualified to pick up her p90 and kick alien tushie. Not someone who only carries a sidearm becaue it's a good idea to be armed and not totally helpless.

I see sam going on the rescue to be more of an example to the casual viewer that sam isn't weir, in more ways than one

elbo
October 15th, 2007, 06:24 AM
And yet when Carter goes offworld once, with a solid plan and backup, she is evil for not staying back in charge of atlantis.

Funny isn't it? :) Someone even said that was a 'rescue routine mission'. More fun!

This discussion is not progressive but repetitive.

It is easy to realise that 'leting Atlantis on Lorne's hands for 1-2 hours' is not the issue here.

Sam is not only in charge of Atlantis, but in charge of the whole Pegasus operation, like Wier was too. Until Sam leaves Pegasus you cannot actually say that she left her post.

Until now Sam has a terible start. Sheppard was actually been rescued. First time when he wasn't force to escape capture by his own. You got to hate the writers for that.

Oh yes, and i belive that i read somwhere that 'Reunion' was a Ronon episode. Don't you belive that Sam was way too present?

And she has no experience with the Wraith, i don't know what she was thinking. To engage masive Wraith drones with stuners and moving in slow mode require extensive training and previous hand to hand Wraith combat.

I look forward to the next anti-Sam / pro-Lorne match, this thread begin to look like a Kafka universe.

SG13-NightOps
October 15th, 2007, 06:40 AM
If sam were joining shep on a weekly basis, i'd have an issue with it. It's not her place any more than it is hammond's or landry's to tag along.

over the years, we did see Jack join the team at least once - it's good to be king - becaus his skills were needed, or his genes anyway.

was sam a little OTT heading off world, maybe. And if she did it every week, i'd have an issue. but if she didnt go she'd be criticized as the leader that has never even seen a wraith (even a frizzy haired one).

But i think it was also meant to be a validation to the non-sg1 viewer that, hey, atlantis has a MILITARY leader now. someone that is qualified to pick up her p90 and kick alien tushie. Not someone who only carries a sidearm becaue it's a good idea to be armed and not totally helpless.

I see sam going on the rescue to be more of an example to the casual viewer that sam isn't weir, in more ways than one

Agreed. She has done it once. The tone of the thread makes me think I should check out the window for an asteroid hurtling towards earth because the world is going to end.

I think the bit that really makes me laugh is she did it in the very next episode after weir did it. When weir did it, it was Cool!

And yes, if she had not seen the Frizzy Haired Wraith, then what hope did she have of ever understanding them! :D

Cautious Explorer
October 15th, 2007, 06:47 AM
That doesn't sound like logic. It sounds like sour grapes. ;)

Weir wasn't intimidated by Ronon.
Weir put Rodney in his place.
Weir said no to John.
Weir run out of the Jumper and saved our heroes and ALL of Atlantis. (Lifeline)

Again, find me something I cant parallel with Weir, and you have a logical argument.

Sour grapes about what?

I didn't say it was logical within the show. I said I believed that was the logic TPTB were using.

Weir didn't do all of those things in one day as a rule. Again, that's something the writers wanted to demonstrate--Carter takes command. Weir was no longer in command of Atlantis on the Asuran mission, and I think you can agree that it was an extraordinary circumstance. I've already said I think Carter is justified in participating in a mission if it's an extraordinary circumstance. This rescue mission wasn't one that required her presence IMO. There were a number of qualified people on Atlantis that could have gone in her place. But TPTB felt the need to showcase Carter's military prowess, so they sent her out there.


If sam were joining shep on a weekly basis, i'd have an issue with it. It's not her place any more than it is hammond's or landry's to tag along.

over the years, we did see Jack join the team at least once - it's good to be king - becaus his skills were needed, or his genes anyway.

was sam a little OTT heading off world, maybe. And if she did it every week, i'd have an issue. but if she didnt go she'd be criticized as the leader that has never even seen a wraith (even a frizzy haired one).

But i think it was also meant to be a validation to the non-sg1 viewer that, hey, atlantis has a MILITARY leader now. someone that is qualified to pick up her p90 and kick alien tushie. Not someone who only carries a sidearm becaue it's a good idea to be armed and not totally helpless.

I see sam going on the rescue to be more of an example to the casual viewer that sam isn't weir, in more ways than one

The problem is, this is only the third episode, so there's no way to know if this is a rare occurance or the establishment of a regular pattern. I think it would have worked better to hold off on the military dramatics until after she'd been established in Atlantis.

I agree with you that TPTB were trying to establish Carter's credentials in this episode. I just wish they hadn't felt the need to hit us over the head with it. At least I felt that way.

prion
October 15th, 2007, 07:29 AM
I knew this thread would come up eventually.

Trying to compare Weir and Carter is apples and oranges.
Carter is a seasoned officer - Weir is a banner waving peace activist. Of course she would never go anywhere expecting hostiles. Except....

After being put in a position where the alledgedly non hostile race she is going to negotiate with did turn hostile (Condemned), she did it again (Progeny). She knowingly walks alone into the homebase of hostiles (seige II) when Atlantis is under attack. She goes with the rest of the team to take atlantis back from the Asurans (return 2) and then they all (Weir, Shep and McKay - the leadership group) leave teyla in charge of atlantis, floating in space and cut off from everyone (lifeline) while they go try and steal a ZPM from the Asuran City - which they were lucky Carter was there else they'd all be dead!

And yet when Carter goes offworld once, with a solid plan and backup, she is evil for not staying back in charge of atlantis.

Double standards much?

It would be pretty silly for anybody (viewers, characters) not to compare WEir and Carter. Ronon did. When you're accustomed to say, having orange juice every morning, and suddenly it's switched with grapefruit juice, you're going to notice.

We honestly don't know if Carter had a solid plan, but we must presume so, but the thing is, without Ronon there to provide the intel, she would have been far better off to have let Lorne (or other Pegasus Galaxy military personnel) head up the mission.

But still, a question that begs answering (and one Mallozzi ignored) - who is in charge of Atlantis while she's gone??

SG13-NightOps
October 15th, 2007, 07:35 AM
It would be pretty silly for anybody (viewers, characters) not to compare WEir and Carter. Ronon did. When you're accustomed to say, having orange juice every morning, and suddenly it's switched with grapefruit juice, you're going to notice.

We honestly don't know if Carter had a solid plan, but we must presume so, but the thing is, without Ronon there to provide the intel, she would have been far better off to have let Lorne (or other Pegasus Galaxy military personnel) head up the mission.

But still, a question that begs answering (and one Mallozzi ignored) - who is in charge of Atlantis while she's gone??

The point of my Apples and Oranges quote is in the next line. It makes Less sense for Weir to walk into a hostile situation (which she has done before) than it does for Carter. Yet Carter is the bad guy and Weir is a "Strong capable leader" with "justified reasons" for leaving the base.

Pointing out hypocrisy is a past time of mine. :D

With who's in charge.. I guess whoever Weir left in charge when she wandered off with Team Shep. (See Home, Condemned, Progeny) :beckettanime14:

Skydiver
October 15th, 2007, 08:15 AM
my acceptance of the rarity of sam going off world is based on comments from joe's blog where he says that she only goes off world a handful of times...i want to think 2-4 but i'm not sure...i'm sure someone will correct me.

Which, if joe is indeed relaying accurate facts, is on par with how many times elizabeth went off world.

It's a juggling match. viewers want off world 'through the gate' episodes adn less 'bottle' city based episodes. Yet, to include the whole team, you have to find reasons to get teh two city bound ones, carter and keller, off world. which, in the 'real world' just wouldn't happen. Command staff doesn't usually go playing in the field.

there were many times when elizabeth seemed to go off world only because they basically needed to include the character in the story to give her something to do...she was simply 'there' and played a role that anyone could have played.

that's part of the catch 22 they have.

keep the action on base where it's easy for everyone to play, it gets boring. how many 'undiscovered rooms' can they REALLY find adn deal with during the course of a season?

but take them off world and all of a sudden part of your cast is naturally excluded from the action unless you come up with a good B story to keep them occupied.

easier said than done.

If, at the end of the season, it's proven out that sam goes off world every week and sticks her nose into what she shouldnt be, i'll be complaining right along with you.

but, for the time being, i'm gonna take joe at his word and rest in the knowledge that sam going on missions is the exception rather than the rule

Naonak
October 15th, 2007, 08:20 AM
With who's in charge.. I guess whoever Weir left in charge when she wandered off with Team Shep. (See Home, Condemned, Progeny) :beckettanime14:
And Submersion... Where there's not even the slightest possible reason for her to go to the energy platform.

Skydiver
October 15th, 2007, 10:35 AM
beyond, perhaps, the thought of 'well, we've paid torri for ____ number of episodes, and we really need to use her so, let's write her into this one'

I'm not saying that that's what happened, but there have been cases in the past where characters do something outside of thier scope simply because it was cheaper to use the established character than to hire an extra for the day. such as daniel interrogating walter in End Game and Sam dissecting the super soldier in evolution

Characters can be written out of their normal scope of behavior simply to accomodate budgetary or contractural obligations

mrtwidlywinks
October 15th, 2007, 06:36 PM
shes the leader-she can pretty much do what she wants. maybe she hadn't gone on a mission for a while and felt like seeing some action.

Mattathias2.0
October 15th, 2007, 06:46 PM
Here's my point... Every General of the SGC has gone off-world a minimum of once.

Hammond - Into The Fire and Prisoners
O'Neill - It's Good To Be King and Moebius
Landry - The Fourth Horseman and Unending

And of Atlantis

Weir - Home, The Siege II, Condemned, Epiphany, Inferno, Progeny and Submersion
Carter - Reunion

Skydiver
October 15th, 2007, 06:48 PM
Bauer never did, but he was a one episode blunder...and a weenie to boot :)

Mattathias2.0
October 15th, 2007, 06:50 PM
Bauer never did, but he was a one episode blunder...and a weenie to boot :)

Yea, we'll just forget about that like it never happened ;)

P. S. I was going to mention him, but it including me calling him a "moron" so I decided to just not mention it *angelic face*

ColCaldwell
October 15th, 2007, 06:53 PM
Neither Weir/Carter OR Sheppard should be going off world. They are leaders in high responsiblity positions.

elbo
October 15th, 2007, 07:06 PM
As already prooven, Atlantis is the most dangerous place in PG, so i don't think that is wise for the leader or anyone else to live inside the city.

majorsal
October 15th, 2007, 08:16 PM
shes the leader-she can pretty much do what she wants. maybe she hadn't gone on a mission for a while and felt like seeing some action.

this is from a newbie's perspective -

maybe sam felt she should go on this rescue mission because, a- some of her senior staff were in peril, b- she felt it could be a good and needed bonding situation between her and ronan, and c- it would show all in atlantis that she, herself, was willing to risk her life for them and their atlantis home.

being the newbie, i didn't question it.



sally :)

AGateFan
October 16th, 2007, 01:39 AM
Sour grapes about what?

I didn't say it was logical within the show. I said I believed that was the logic TPTB were using.

Weir didn't do all of those things in one day as a rule. Again, that's something the writers wanted to demonstrate--Carter takes command. Weir was no longer in command of Atlantis on the Asuran mission, and I think you can agree that it was an extraordinary circumstance. I've already said I think Carter is justified in participating in a mission if it's an extraordinary circumstance. This rescue mission wasn't one that required her presence IMO. There were a number of qualified people on Atlantis that could have gone in her place. But TPTB felt the need to showcase Carter's military prowess, so they sent her out there.



The problem is, this is only the third episode, so there's no way to know if this is a rare occurance or the establishment of a regular pattern. I think it would have worked better to hold off on the military dramatics until after she'd been established in Atlantis.

I agree with you that TPTB were trying to establish Carter's credentials in this episode. I just wish they hadn't felt the need to hit us over the head with it. At least I felt that way.
I dissagree. If you are going to do it, do it now and get it out of the way. It is easy to say now that Carter still hasnt fallen into the base commander role and has fallen back on the more actiony SG-1 role. As her understanding of her responsibilies on Atlantis grow it should be more difficult for her to justify such situations. Also at this point she doesnt really know (personally) all the military members of Atlantis and so wouldnt have as much of a sense of "I can trust him to get it done" whereas she does know her own capacity.

I am not saying I was in favor of her going, especially not her and Zelinka (who has suddenly become Mr brave) but if I could ever justify it, it would be now while she is still sluffing off the old SG-1 skin and getting used to her knew less hands on life.

Cautious Explorer
October 16th, 2007, 03:42 AM
I dissagree. If you are going to do it, do it now and get it out of the way. It is easy to say now that Carter still hasnt fallen into the base commander role and has fallen back on the more actiony SG-1 role. As her understanding of her responsibilies on Atlantis grow it should be more difficult for her to justify such situations. Also at this point she doesnt really know (personally) all the military members of Atlantis and so wouldnt have as much of a sense of "I can trust him to get it done" whereas she does know her own capacity.

I am not saying I was in favor of her going, especially not her and Zelinka (who has suddenly become Mr brave) but if I could ever justify it, it would be now while she is still sluffing off the old SG-1 skin and getting used to her knew less hands on life.

You have a point. I'm not a regular SG-1 viewer, so my opinion of Carter is based a lot on Rodney's comments, M&MM and GUP, all of which focus on her great scientific reputation. I do realize she has many years of experience on the SG-1 team, but TPTB really haven't presented Carter to the Atlantis-only fans IMO, as a soldier. To have her jump into leather and go racing off on a rescue mission, came off to me as bravado.

I think TPTB are very reliant on everyone being long-time SG-1 fans. They've presented Carter as a scientist in Atlantis, and now we're supposed to buy that she's a great leader and accomplished soldier without any evidence. I guess the rescue mission was supposed to be that evidence. :S

SG13-NightOps
October 16th, 2007, 04:06 AM
You have a point. I'm not a regular SG-1 viewer, so my opinion of Carter is based a lot on Rodney's comments, M&MM and GUP, all of which focus on her great scientific reputation. I do realize she has many years of experience on the SG-1 team, but TPTB really haven't presented Carter to the Atlantis-only fans IMO, as a soldier. To have her jump into leather and go racing off on a rescue mission, came off to me as bravado.

I think TPTB are very reliant on everyone being long-time SG-1 fans. They've presented Carter as a scientist in Atlantis, and now we're supposed to buy that she's a great leader and accomplished soldier without any evidence. I guess the rescue mission was supposed to be that evidence. :S

If it wasn't an SG1 character, you'd also have to accept they are a great leader without evidence. Weir was just accepted without proof. Especially if you haven't seen SG1 before. She had all of 4 episodes of experience to back her up. Carters 10 years of experience, that you know she has just by knowing of SG1, should be capable of outweighing that. You dont have to have watched SG1 to know Carter was a main character for 10 years...

If there *is* a standard to say anyone has the ability to run an offworld base in another galaxy, then there are precious few people will meet it. Hammond, O'Neill and Carter would easily top that list.

Some Atlantis Veiwers didnt watch SG1. They dont like it. Thats fine. But that 10 years arent going to just vanish.. And as much as some Atlantis fans seem to hate to admit it, there are a hell of a lot of Atlantis fans that also love SG1. And the people that make Atlantis - they love SG1 too. Its a whole universe..

Imagine saying to Ashely Olsen, I really really dont like Mary Kate - and if I am going to pay attention to your shows, then you have to pretend she is dead.
What do you think she will say to you? (Sorry, couldnt think of any other twins :( )

cavalierlwt
October 16th, 2007, 04:16 AM
my acceptance of the rarity of sam going off world is based on comments from joe's blog where he says that she only goes off world a handful of times...i want to think 2-4 but i'm not sure...i'm sure someone will correct me.

Which, if joe is indeed relaying accurate facts, is on par with how many times elizabeth went off world.

If, at the end of the season, it's proven out that sam goes off world every week and sticks her nose into what she shouldnt be, i'll be complaining right along with you.

but, for the time being, i'm gonna take joe at his word and rest in the knowledge that sam going on missions is the exception rather than the rule

If she only does it a few times, and they give us some reason, any reason, then it will make sense. Heck, if the situation appeared totally safe, and Sam said that she just wanted to get out of the city for a day, even that would make sense. It just felt too weird in this episode.

Cautious Explorer
October 16th, 2007, 05:09 AM
If it wasn't an SG1 character, you'd also have to accept they are a great leader without evidence. Weir was just accepted without proof. Especially if you haven't seen SG1 before. She had all of 4 episodes of experience to back her up. Carters 10 years of experience, that you know she has just by knowing of SG1, should be capable of outweighing that. You dont have to have watched SG1 to know Carter was a main character for 10 years...

If there *is* a standard to say anyone has the ability to run an offworld base in another galaxy, then there are precious few people will meet it. Hammond, O'Neill and Carter would easily top that list.

Some Atlantis Veiwers didnt watch SG1. They dont like it. Thats fine. But that 10 years arent going to just vanish.. And as much as some Atlantis fans seem to hate to admit it, there are a hell of a lot of Atlantis fans that also love SG1. And the people that make Atlantis - they love SG1 too. Its a whole universe..

Imagine saying to Ashely Olsen, I really really dont like Mary Kate - and if I am going to pay attention to your shows, then you have to pretend she is dead.
What do you think she will say to you? (Sorry, couldnt think of any other twins :( )

I'd rather the writers show me, rather than expect me to take their word on it. I didn't know anything about any of the characters in Rising and came to my own conclusions throughout. I didn't accept Weir as a "great leader", I accepted her as the person chosen to lead the Atlantis expedition. There were no reasons given as to why she was chosen.

Rodney has years of experience on a gate team. Does that make him a great leader and military tactician? As I said before, I know some background about Carter, yes, but she was primarily presented in Atlantis as a top scientist. The few episodes of SG-1 I've seen, she followed Jacks military lead and solved scientific problems.

I'm aware that many people watch both shows. But I think TPTB are also well aware that there are a number of people that only watch/watched one show or the other. Don't they have an obligation to tell a complete story without depending on their viewers to refer to the other series?

We're talking about fictional characters in a fictional setting, not real people. So what if I prefer one set of characters over another. Should TPTB take that as a mortal insult because I like some of their product, just not their entire body of work?

SG13-NightOps
October 16th, 2007, 09:14 AM
I'd rather the writers show me, rather than expect me to take their word on it. I didn't know anything about any of the characters in Rising and came to my own conclusions throughout. I didn't accept Weir as a "great leader", I accepted her as the person chosen to lead the Atlantis expedition. There were no reasons given as to why she was chosen.
You know, you have to wait for more than one episode for that to be proven to you, like you no doubt had to do with Weir.

Any other way of "showing you" would require several thousand SG1 flashbacks and well, you can already guess what that would cause.


Rodney has years of experience on a gate team. Does that make him a great leader and military tactician? As I said before, I know some background about Carter, yes, but she was primarily presented in Atlantis as a top scientist. The few episodes of SG-1 I've seen, she followed Jacks military lead and solved scientific problems.
Rodney isnt military, Carter Is. Apples and Oranges again.
And of course she followed Jacks military lead. You know what the Chain of Command is, right?


I'm aware that many people watch both shows. But I think TPTB are also well aware that there are a number of people that only watch/watched one show or the other. Don't they have an obligation to tell a complete story without depending on their viewers to refer to the other series?
Uh.. No. Not last time I checked.. Didnt think there was a rule book on Spin offs myself. Besides, I can happily refer you to plenty of threads where SGA only fans are quite pissed off about constantly referring to SG1 things in SGA. Can they possibly win?


We're talking about fictional characters in a fictional setting, not real people. So what if I prefer one set of characters over another. Should TPTB take that as a mortal insult because I like some of their product, just not their entire body of work?
You missed the point of that comment. The point is she would say "Not likely" and you either live with that, or walk away. Its their choice about how much SG1 they integrate or not... Not ours.

The silly thing is.. this is how spin offs work. They refer to things from the master show. They have characters from the master show pop up in cross overs or come over for good. Its neither ours nor TPTB's fault if you like one, but not the other, nor is it up to us to wear half a season of catch up on SG1 stuff because you didnt like it. Not to mention the ensuing backlash for having so much SG1 catch up, despite the fact that it would be needed to bring you up to speed. They have no other choice but to go by the basis that the spin off watchers will be the master show watchers - and not make them cover old ground.

prion
October 16th, 2007, 09:54 AM
You know, you have to wait for more than one episode for that to be proven to you, like you no doubt had to do with Weir.

Any other way of "showing you" would require several thousand SG1 flashbacks and well, you can already guess what that would cause.


Rodney isnt military, Carter Is. Apples and Oranges again.
And of course she followed Jacks military lead. You know what the Chain of Command is, right?


Uh.. No. Not last time I checked.. Didnt think there was a rule book on Spin offs myself. Besides, I can happily refer you to plenty of threads where SGA only fans are quite pissed off about constantly referring to SG1 things in SGA. Can they possibly win?


You missed the point of that comment. The point is she would say "Not likely" and you either live with that, or walk away. Its their choice about how much SG1 they integrate or not... Not ours.

The silly thing is.. this is how spin offs work. They refer to things from the master show. They have characters from the master show pop up in cross overs or come over for good. Its neither ours nor TPTB's fault if you like one, but not the other, nor is it up to us to wear half a season of catch up on SG1 stuff because you didnt like it. Not to mention the ensuing backlash for having so much SG1 catch up, despite the fact that it would be needed to bring you up to speed. They have no other choice but to go by the basis that the spin off watchers will be the master show watchers - and not make them cover old ground.

Ther'es no problem with spinoffs mentioning, in passing, stuff from the 'master' show, but stealing plots and villians and characters all the time negates the purpose of creating a new, different show.

Right now we haven't seen enough to see Carter's command style - I won't comment much on DP as that would be spoiler territory and we need another past that to really determine what she'll do.

but the writers are going to do what they WANT, not what necessarily pleases the viewers or makes sense ;)

SG13-NightOps
October 16th, 2007, 10:10 AM
Ther'es no problem with spinoffs mentioning, in passing, stuff from the 'master' show, but stealing plots and villians and characters all the time negates the purpose of creating a new, different show.
With the Villian, I am guessing you mean Caldwell's goa'uld? Makes perfect sense in the startgate universe... Would seem really unrealistic to think that the trust would just ignore atlantis because its a spin off show.

Plots is different. Writing this stuff isnt easy, and has to meet deadlines and other rules and obligations. They may do something another writer has done in a fashion before without even realising it. So long as it isnt word for word (I have seen that happen before) and the premise is different, then I can forgive them for doubling up on plot devices (RepliCarter/AsurWeir)


Right now we haven't seen enough to see Carter's command style - I won't comment much on DP as that would be spoiler territory and we need another past that to really determine what she'll do.
Exactly my point! Making decisions on her ability is a bit premature after only her first episode in charge.


but the writers are going to do what they WANT, not what necessarily pleases the viewers or makes sense ;)
In a manner of speaking. That should be changed to Not necessarily what pleases every viewer or makes sense. Some will be pleased, some wont. Its the same with every TV show on the air. They have to draw a line somewhere, or there is just no point in trying.

prion
October 16th, 2007, 01:56 PM
With the Villian, I am guessing you mean Caldwell's goa'uld? Makes perfect sense in the startgate universe... Would seem really unrealistic to think that the trust would just ignore atlantis because its a spin off show.

Plots is different. Writing this stuff isnt easy, and has to meet deadlines and other rules and obligations. They may do something another writer has done in a fashion before without even realising it. So long as it isnt word for word (I have seen that happen before) and the premise is different, then I can forgive them for doubling up on plot devices (RepliCarter/AsurWeir)

Exactly my point! Making decisions on her ability is a bit premature after only her first episode in charge.


I meant stealing villains as in replicators. Been there, done that, let's not do it again ;)

SG13-NightOps
October 16th, 2007, 01:59 PM
I meant stealing villains as in replicators. Been there, done that, let's not do it again ;)

Oh god I agree! I liked the Replicators until they made the Human form ones. Then it just felt like they were trying too hard.. I almost cried during progeny :(

I try not to think of them as replicators and just as... robot ancients.. I dont know why, it makes me feel better. :D

Cautious Explorer
October 16th, 2007, 03:20 PM
You know, you have to wait for more than one episode for that to be proven to you, like you no doubt had to do with Weir.

Absolutely. Show me she's a leader. Show me she's more than a scientist. Show me she can take command in a military situation. I suspect that's what the writers were attempting to do here. It just didn't work. She didn't exhibit any more skill than any anonymous marine could have in the same situation. And she didn't show the wisdom to know when to leave it to qualified Pegasus personnel.



Any other way of "showing you" would require several thousand SG1 flashbacks and well, you can already guess what that would cause.
The end of my insomnia? :cool:



Rodney isnt military, Carter Is. Apples and Oranges again.
And of course she followed Jacks military lead. You know what the Chain of Command is, right?

Your point was that I should assume Carter is a "great leader" because she's been on a gate team for 10 years, regardless of what I have seen or not seen of SG-1. I was just pointing out that's not necessarily true. Being on a gate team for a period of time doesn't guarantee anything.

I am familiar with the chain of command. And if she followed it, she wasn't in command was she?



Uh.. No. Not last time I checked.. Didnt think there was a rule book on Spin offs myself. Besides, I can happily refer you to plenty of threads where SGA only fans are quite pissed off about constantly referring to SG1 things in SGA. Can they possibly win?

Because I want TPTB to show me that Carter is a leader rather than accept that she is because of all the heroic things she's done on earlier shows with SG-1, I'm putting the writers in a no-win position? I don't think so.



You missed the point of that comment. The point is she would say "Not likely" and you either live with that, or walk away. Its their choice about how much SG1 they integrate or not... Not ours.

That's what you were trying to say? Yes, it is their choice. If they want to change SGA into SG-1, I do have the choice to walk away. If they take the show to a point where I think it's irredeemable, I'm sure I will.



The silly thing is.. this is how spin offs work. They refer to things from the master show. They have characters from the master show pop up in cross overs or come over for good. Its neither ours nor TPTB's fault if you like one, but not the other, nor is it up to us to wear half a season of catch up on SG1 stuff because you didnt like it. Not to mention the ensuing backlash for having so much SG1 catch up, despite the fact that it would be needed to bring you up to speed. They have no other choice but to go by the basis that the spin off watchers will be the master show watchers - and not make them cover old ground.

Spin-offs are usually created to go somewhere or follow new characters that the original series can't. Often in an attempt to both keep viewers of the original show and draw in new viewers. Some people like both, some prefer one over the other. There isn't usually a constant interweaving of the stories, characters etc. An occasional guest appearance, a thread of the original storyline, but that's about it.

I don't think there's any reason on earth why they should subject anyone to a complete rehash of SG-1 storylines on Atlantis. I'm merely suggesting they introduce the new character to SGA, Samantha Carter, in a believable way, without relying soley on her background in SG-1 to prove her worth. She's not in SG-1. She's on Atlantis. Prove she has the stuff to be an effective leader and fit in on the new show. It's pure laziness to presume everyone will love Carter for what she did on SG-1.

prion
October 16th, 2007, 04:48 PM
I don't think there's any reason on earth why they should subject anyone to a complete rehash of SG-1 storylines on Atlantis. I'm merely suggesting they introduce the new character to SGA, Samantha Carter, in a believable way, without relying soley on her background in SG-1 to prove her worth. She's not in SG-1. She's on Atlantis. Prove she has the stuff to be an effective leader and fit in on the new show. It's pure laziness to presume everyone will love Carter for what she did on SG-1.

Good writing shows people what's happening, it doesn't tell them. I agree that we shouldn't have to constantly see Carter going back to SG1 to bring up examples of her skills. The writers need to move beyond SG1, forget about for most things, and kick-start her in the Pegasus galaxy with new challenges that require new solutions.

It's gonna take probably a few episodes to see that. There wasn't enough of anything in Adrift or Lifeline to prove she's good or bad as a leader. In Reunion, well, she should have sent another team, not herself, on the rescue team. Sorry, but she should have, as the new leader, sat at home, not run off to playl ;)

SG13-NightOps
October 16th, 2007, 10:16 PM
Absolutely. Show me she's a leader. Show me she's more than a scientist. Show me she can take command in a military situation. I suspect that's what the writers were attempting to do here. It just didn't work. She didn't exhibit any more skill than any anonymous marine could have in the same situation. And she didn't show the wisdom to know when to leave it to qualified Pegasus personnel.
She has been in command for one day!!
I'm going to need more than that to judge... I gave Weir a whole season worth of benefit of the doubt. I can afford some for Carter.


The end of my insomnia? :cool:
I was actually talking about the relentless complaining that Carter dared mention SG1 on SGA - God Forbid!


Your point was that I should assume Carter is a "great leader" because she's been on a gate team for 10 years, regardless of what I have seen or not seen of SG-1. I was just pointing out that's not necessarily true. Being on a gate team for a period of time doesn't guarantee anything.
She has been in command for one day!!


I am familiar with the chain of command. And if she followed it, she wasn't in command was she?
Not for the first Seven seasons, no.



Because I want TPTB to show me that Carter is a leader rather than accept that she is because of all the heroic things she's done on earlier shows with SG-1, I'm putting the writers in a no-win position? I don't think so.
She has been in command for one day!!



That's what you were trying to say? Yes, it is their choice. If they want to change SGA into SG-1, I do have the choice to walk away. If they take the show to a point where I think it's irredeemable, I'm sure I will.
I would too.



Spin-offs are usually created to go somewhere or follow new characters that the original series can't. Often in an attempt to both keep viewers of the original show and draw in new viewers. Some people like both, some prefer one over the other. There isn't usually a constant interweaving of the stories, characters etc. An occasional guest appearance, a thread of the original storyline, but that's about it.

I don't think there's any reason on earth why they should subject anyone to a complete rehash of SG-1 storylines on Atlantis. I'm merely suggesting they introduce the new character to SGA, Samantha Carter, in a believable way, without relying soley on her background in SG-1 to prove her worth. She's not in SG-1. She's on Atlantis. Prove she has the stuff to be an effective leader and fit in on the new show. It's pure laziness to presume everyone will love Carter for what she did on SG-1.
She has been in command for one day!!

and in case I forgot to mention it... She has been in command for one day!!

Lets talk about whether ornot it was the right decision about mid season when they have actually HAD a chance to "show you"...

Cautious Explorer
October 17th, 2007, 03:52 AM
She has been in command for one day!!
I'm going to need more than that to judge... I gave Weir a whole season worth of benefit of the doubt. I can afford some for Carter.


I was actually talking about the relentless complaining that Carter dared mention SG1 on SGA - God Forbid!


She has been in command for one day!!


Not for the first Seven seasons, no.



She has been in command for one day!!



I would too.



She has been in command for one day!!

and in case I forgot to mention it... She has been in command for one day!!

Lets talk about whether ornot it was the right decision about mid season when they have actually HAD a chance to "show you"...

I see you finally get it. They do need to show us. Not just expect us to acknowledge someone as a great leader, a great soldier, whatever, based solely on what they tell us or expect us to have gleaned from another show.

She has been leader for one day. I'm very aware of that. That's what I've been saying. Leader for one day. In Pegasus for one day. Working with the new staff for one day. Unfamiliar territory for her. And that's exactly why she made the wrong choice in going on the mission. Send the people who do know the galaxy, who have been working with each other, who have some familiarity with the Wraith.

As I've also said before, it was a mistake, but not a huge one. No one died, no huge castatstrophy, but an error in judgment nonetheless.

I think TPTB wanted to show us that Carter cared about the team, that Carter was a seasoned pro in off-world situations, that Carter has proven herself to Atlantis. It didn't work for me. Leave the off-world heroics for a time when her expertise is specifically required by the circumstances.

SG13-NightOps
October 17th, 2007, 07:14 AM
I see you finally get it. They do need to show us. Not just expect us to acknowledge someone as a great leader, a great soldier, whatever, based solely on what they tell us or expect us to have gleaned from another show.
Let me try and break this down smaller then since I am clearly not making any headway here.
There is two different areas to this discussion and I think you are missing my point.
When a person is hired for a job, it is assumed that they can do the job they are hired to do. That has never before meant that they could do it properly, but the position is to assume that they can do it - until they have proven otherwise. Else - why hire them?
Her 10 years of experience, her scientific background, the fact that she has lead SG1, has been left in charge of the SGC, etc etc. is what says there is a basis to believe she could be a good leader. Even without having seen those 10 years, the fact that she was selected says you can assume that there is enough basis to believe she would make a good leader. Thats what employing someone is all about. Its basic every day functioning. "Oh, there resume is really good, looks like they can do the job - hire them".

Then you get to see if the decision was the right one. Until then yes - it is up to you to assume that the writers have made a logical decision and that it should work out in the end - but you STILL have to WAIT AND SEE. (The Pro Mantra!)


She has been leader for one day. I'm very aware of that. That's what I've been saying. Leader for one day. In Pegasus for one day. Working with the new staff for one day. Unfamiliar territory for her. And that's exactly why she made the wrong choice in going on the mission. Send the people who do know the galaxy, who have been working with each other, who have some familiarity with the Wraith.
And how is she supposed to get to know the galaxy and become familiar with the enemy from behind a desk? You have to Do it to Know it.
Funnily, When Shep first got there, he knew nothing about the enemy or the galaxy either... Maybe they should have just stayed home too.


As I've also said before, it was a mistake, but not a huge one. No one died, no huge castatstrophy, but an error in judgment nonetheless.
I disagree. For the reasons above ... Besides, if it IS a mistake, then lets just remember to admit that weir made it a lot too ;)


I think TPTB wanted to show us that Carter cared about the team, that Carter was a seasoned pro in off-world situations, that Carter has proven herself to Atlantis. It didn't work for me. Leave the off-world heroics for a time when her expertise is specifically required by the circumstances.

You need to be experienced in Wriath and all things Pegasus to walk into an undermanned Wraith Science facility and mount a rescue with Intel?
Someone should have told Shep that when he walked into the fully laden Wraith Hive in Rising to mount a rescue with absolutely no idea what he was walking into.

If everyone with NO experience with Wraith and the Pegasus galaxy just stayed home at Atlantis and kept their noses clean, SGA would get old, very fast.

Cautious Explorer
October 17th, 2007, 09:28 AM
Let me try and break this down smaller then since I am clearly not making any headway here.
There is two different areas to this discussion and I think you are missing my point.
When a person is hired for a job, it is assumed that they can do the job they are hired to do. That has never before meant that they could do it properly, but the position is to assume that they can do it - until they have proven otherwise. Else - why hire them?
Her 10 years of experience, her scientific background, the fact that she has lead SG1, has been left in charge of the SGC, etc etc. is what says there is a basis to believe she could be a good leader. Even without having seen those 10 years, the fact that she was selected says you can assume that there is enough basis to believe she would make a good leader. Thats what employing someone is all about. Its basic every day functioning. "Oh, there resume is really good, looks like they can do the job - hire them".

Then you get to see if the decision was the right one. Until then yes - it is up to you to assume that the writers have made a logical decision and that it should work out in the end - but you STILL have to WAIT AND SEE. (The Pro Mantra!)

It still comes down to show me -- dont' tell me. I know Carter was selected by the IOA to take command in Atlantis. I know she has many years of history at the SGC. I know it means that someone believes she has the potential to be a good leader in Atlantis. Now the writers need to show me that Carter is capable of doing the job.

So far, on her first day she has made a decision to go on a rescue mission. That is the topic of this thread. Was that decision right or wrong? From what I have seen, I think it was not a valid choice. I'm not saying her choices won't get better. But I'm not going to give blanket approval to all her actions because she has made good choices in the past and may make good choices in the future. In this particular instance, I think the choice was wrong.




And how is she supposed to get to know the galaxy and become familiar with the enemy from behind a desk? You have to Do it to Know it.
Funnily, When Shep first got there, he knew nothing about the enemy or the galaxy either... Maybe they should have just stayed home too.


Have I implied that she should never, ever go off world? I think I've been quite clear that under the right circumstances it may be appropriate. She was not prepared for or needed for this mission IMO. Certainly it isn't necessary for a new commander to jump into combat on their first day on the job.

If, on Carter's first day, she had arrived in a city about to self-destruct, her military staff had been culled by the Wraith and no one present had ever seen or dealt with the Wraith before, then by all means, she should have jumped in and done whatever she could. Carter actually arrived to a stable city full of experienced Pegasus veterans she could call upon to stage a rescue operation. Leaving the job to those with the experience and knowledge to do it, is good leadership.


I disagree. For the reasons above ... Besides, if it IS a mistake, then lets just remember to admit that weir made it a lot too ;)

Of course Weir made mistakes too. I don't think that's actually on topic for this thread. Unless your point is that Carter has the right to make bad decisions because her predecessor did? :cool:




You need to be experienced in Wriath and all things Pegasus to walk into an undermanned Wraith Science facility and mount a rescue with Intel?
Someone should have told Shep that when he walked into the fully laden Wraith Hive in Rising to mount a rescue with absolutely no idea what he was walking into.

If everyone with NO experience with Wraith and the Pegasus galaxy just stayed home at Atlantis and kept their noses clean, SGA would get old, very fast.

What military contingent with experience in the Pegasus Galaxy and years of experience in fighting the Wraith were present when Sheppard went to the Hive ship? If there had been such a contingent, Sheppard would have been foolish not to defer to them.

SGA would not get old if only those with experience in the Pegasus went on missions. We'd still get to see Sheppard, McKay, Teyla, Ronon, Lorne, etc. go on mission after mission after mission. ;)

SG13-NightOps
October 17th, 2007, 09:39 AM
SGA would not get old if only those with experience in the Pegasus went on missions. We'd still get to see Sheppard, McKay, Teyla, Ronon, Lorne, etc. go on mission after mission after mission. ;)

No you wouldnt, because Shep and McKay would never have that experience to begin with.

Hence my point. You learn by doing. If sitting behind a desk and reading reports is all she needs to be allowed to go on missions - then I guess the reports from Pegasus would have been enough, right?

What does she got to do by your standard to be allowed to go in the field, because currently - I am not seeing anything?

prion
October 17th, 2007, 09:56 AM
I think TPTB wanted to show us that Carter cared about the team, that Carter was a seasoned pro in off-world situations, that Carter has proven herself to Atlantis. It didn't work for me. Leave the off-world heroics for a time when her expertise is specifically required by the circumstances.

Yup. It was a plot device to (note, much of this said with a hint of sarcasm)

1) toss Carter into the thick of things, as SG1 fans would expect that (don't want to tick off the fanbase that may not have watched SGA before and that you've spent oodles advertising 'carter is coming to atlantis' to)

2) show off the tight black leather biker/dominatrix outfit *cough*

3) give carter something to do other than her job of delegating and waiting back at the base as the leader should

4) show off the tight black leather biker/dominatrix outfit *cough*

5) bond with the team - rescue sheppard (so now he's 'okay, she's got her act together'), assure ronon she won't lock him up in the deep dark dungeons for daring to leave the city (although I loved someone's comment somewhere on the web that maybe there's hope for Carter/Ronon ship), mckay (well, we have no idea what he thought of the rescue)

SG13-NightOps
October 17th, 2007, 10:13 AM
Yup. It was a plot device to (note, much of this said with a hint of sarcasm)

1) toss Carter into the thick of things, as SG1 fans would expect that (don't want to tick off the fanbase that may not have watched SGA before and that you've spent oodles advertising 'carter is coming to atlantis' to)

2) show off the tight black leather biker/dominatrix outfit *cough*

3) give carter something to do other than her job of delegating and waiting back at the base as the leader should

4) show off the tight black leather biker/dominatrix outfit *cough*

5) bond with the team - rescue sheppard (so now he's 'okay, she's got her act together'), assure ronon she won't lock him up in the deep dark dungeons for daring to leave the city (although I loved someone's comment somewhere on the web that maybe there's hope for Carter/Ronon ship), mckay (well, we have no idea what he thought of the rescue)

I actually think its the same reason that someone explained in the Zelenka thread.

Why make it some random extra that will cost them more and mean nothing to anyone when they have Carter there?
No one wants to see the top team rescued by a hand full of no name people that they have nothing invested in. Its always that way... Its Televeision. LOL

Cautious Explorer
October 17th, 2007, 10:48 AM
If everyone with NO experience with Wraith and the Pegasus galaxy just stayed home at Atlantis and kept their noses clean, SGA would get old, very fast.


No you wouldnt, because Shep and McKay would never have that experience to begin with.


Ah. You meant to say if everyone with no experience in Pegasus had stayed home in the MilkyWay? Well of course, there would have been no show. Obviously you have to learn by experience if your the first explorers. Carter is four years too late for that.



Yup. It was a plot device to (note, much of this said with a hint of sarcasm)

1) toss Carter into the thick of things, as SG1 fans would expect that (don't want to tick off the fanbase that may not have watched SGA before and that you've spent oodles advertising 'carter is coming to atlantis' to)

2) show off the tight black leather biker/dominatrix outfit *cough*

3) give carter something to do other than her job of delegating and waiting back at the base as the leader should

4) show off the tight black leather biker/dominatrix outfit *cough*

5) bond with the team - rescue sheppard (so now he's 'okay, she's got her act together'), assure ronon she won't lock him up in the deep dark dungeons for daring to leave the city (although I loved someone's comment somewhere on the web that maybe there's hope for Carter/Ronon ship), mckay (well, we have no idea what he thought of the rescue)

Yes, they have to get their money's worth out of the leather number ;)

It was all about convenience, not logic.

Mack_1
October 17th, 2007, 11:16 AM
First. Doesn't matter what Carter do or don't, you are not going to like what she does, cause she is not Weir and some of you plain hate her.

Second: Going with the rescue team, maybe a mistake (we don't know were Lorne or any other high rank military is) But she had the experience as a tactical and field soldier, either the replicators, goud'l, super soldier (ups sorry SG-1) or in this case the Wraith, an enemy is the same doesn't matter were you are they going to kick your behind either way.

She can't send foot soldiers to retrieve her second in command and her first scientist and leave it to the chance that such foot soldiers get kill or apprehend, she wasn't alone.

Third: She had the Intel from Ronon, he knows the lay out of the place and knows how to fight them, she knows how to take care of her self and her team mates, we can't not ignore the fact that she's all ready have a military background and war experience, just because she is in Atlantis she is not going to act like she forgot all about that.

4) If the hive or what ever that ship was, had been full of Wraith, Sheppard and com. wouldn't have been there in the first place, to me it was a lab, so there weren't to many enemy to fight against (to me) it show that, when only two darts? were send after the firsts jumper.

5) She had a plan, as stupid it may seam to some, she had have a plan,

This is her first command of a whole base/city not a team, I agree she shouldn't left her command but give her a break, she is first of all a soldier and her people were in trouble, so maybe it wasn't logical for her to go on the rescue mission, but it was probably necesary:sam:

SG13-NightOps
October 17th, 2007, 11:18 AM
Ah. You meant to say if everyone with no experience in Pegasus had stayed home in the MilkyWay? Well of course, there would have been no show. Obviously you have to learn by experience if your the first explorers. Carter is four years too late for that.


No.. Stayed back at Atlantis. You Know. Not go to Athos. Not wake up the Wraith. Not have any adventure.

They had to get to Atlantis because if they didn't, then there would be no show at all.

You didn't answer my question though. What does Carter have to do? If not experience (Being too late for that apparently) and not reading reports (which is all she would do behind a desk) - where does this miraculous expertise to allow her to go off world come from?

Cautious Explorer
October 17th, 2007, 01:06 PM
No.. Stayed back at Atlantis. You Know. Not go to Athos. Not wake up the Wraith. Not have any adventure.

They had to get to Atlantis because if they didn't, then there would be no show at all.

You didn't answer my question though. What does Carter have to do? If not experience (Being too late for that apparently) and not reading reports (which is all she would do behind a desk) - where does this miraculous expertise to allow her to go off world come from?

Carter will have plenty of valid opportunities to go off-world, in her official capacity to meet and negotiate with other leaders, in instances where her scientific expertise is necessary, in emergency situations when there may not be anyone else qualified on hand.

Certainly she may want to gain off-world experience in Pegasus. But that should come gradually and not start out in an emergency situation where there are already experienced and capable personnel ready and available to deal with the situation. I would think a team dynamic would come into play as well. You've got teams of people used to working together. An emergency comes up. Is the middle of a rescue mission really the time to throw new people into the mix? As long as the people available are experienced and capable, let them handle it. Worry about getting off-world later.

I think Toaster on Fire put it very well:


IMO, it's logical for Carter to go on away missions if there's a skill needed that she can perform better than pretty much everyone on Atlantis. Replicator problems? Check. Super difficult think-on-your-feet scientific problem? Sure, she can back up Rodney. ;) :P Stomping through a wraith facility to save a team member? Eh, I don't see how Carter is that better equipped than the other military people on Atlantis, especially since they've likely fought wraith and/or been in wraith facilities and she hasn't.

They just lost one leader on an away mission. Is it really that smart for the new leader to jump right into another?

SG13-NightOps
October 17th, 2007, 01:16 PM
Carter will have plenty of valid opportunities to go off-world, in her official capacity to meet and negotiate with other leaders, in instances where her scientific expertise is necessary, in emergency situations when there may not be anyone else qualified on hand.

Certainly she may want to gain off-world experience in Pegasus. But that should come gradually and not start out in an emergency situation where there are already experienced and capable personnel ready and available to deal with the situation. I would think a team dynamic would come into play as well. You've got teams of people used to working together. An emergency comes up. Is the middle of a rescue mission really the time to throw new people into the mix? As long as the people available are experienced and capable, let them handle it. Worry about getting off-world later.

I think Toaster on Fire put it very well:

This is where I have to revert back to SG1 because well - I do. Whether its liked or not.

SG1 Episode 1 - Carter is involved in a resuce mission against aliens she knows nothing about with no Intel. (and does that a whole lot in SG1 too)
SGA Episode 1 - Shep is involved in a rescue mision against aliens he knows nothing about with no Intel.
Reunion - Carter is involved in a rescue mission against aliens she has read about, actually encountered (Pegasus Project) and has all the intel she needs on both the aliens and the facility.

And yet - she is apparently inexperienced. If you have not seen SG1 you assume inexperience. Just because you dont know a persons history, doesnt mean it doesnt exist. She picked Airforce over Scientist. She is a soldier first. And a veteran at that!

Mitchell82
October 17th, 2007, 01:23 PM
In my perspective yes IF the situation calls for it. In the epsisodes that Weir went offworld it made sense.
HOME- THe team thought they found a way back to Earth. Logical for the base commander to go.
The Seige II- Made sense to try and get the nuclear bombs.
Intruder- Obviously made sense. She went to Earth to relay info aobut the recent seige of Atlantis and the state of affairs on Atlantis.
Condemned- She went to negotiate her teams release from a penal colony.
Epihany- It made sense for someone fluent in Ancient to accompany the team to try and find Shep.
Inferno- The team was responding to a distress call from a Ancient outpost and she was fluent in Ancient. She spent most of the ep however at the base.
Misbegotten- She was called back to the SGC to explain her actions and why she put Earth in danger. Very real life.
Progeny- They thought they found a colony of Ancients she is an Ancient expert. Simple.
Submersion- I don't know why people count this she didn't go offworld she went with the team to explore an Ancient geothermal drilling platform on the planet. Makes sense to me.


Now as to Carter. So far we have seen her do it once. Now while some don't think it made sense it did. She was just put in command. Her main duty is to maintain the secrecy of Atlantis's new postition. She also was very qualified for the mission. She didn't want to risk a team on an obvious ambush. She also needed to gain the trust of the rest of the expedition as well as Ronon. She mad the right call.

rarocks24
October 17th, 2007, 01:25 PM
It's hardly a smart move as the leader of an operation to, on your first day (or at least first day with things to do) in said position, make a horribly stupid decision.

You don't demonstrate you're committed or that you're brave or whatever by jumping headfirst into battle. The only thing you're demonstrating is stupidity. What if she'd been fed on? What then?

How many times have we seen in fiction commanders going off on rescue missions? Captain Janeway, Commander Sisko, Captain Picard, Captain Kirk...

I mean, my god, if we want to be so realistic, lets do away with the wormhole, because it's beyond belief. Let's do away with the ships and the Asgard and the Goa'uld. :rolleyes:

To answer the actual question, no.

Cautious Explorer
October 17th, 2007, 01:34 PM
This is where I have to revert back to SG1 because well - I do. Whether its liked or not.

SG1 Episode 1 - Carter is involved in a resuce mission against aliens she knows nothing about with no Intel. (and does that a whole lot in SG1 too)
SGA Episode 1 - Shep is involved in a rescue mision against aliens he knows nothing about with no Intel.
Reunion - Carter is involved in a rescue mission against aliens she has read about, actually encountered (Pegasus Project) and has all the intel she needs on both the aliens and the facility.

And yet - she is apparently inexperienced. If you have not seen SG1 you assume inexperience. Just because you dont know a persons history, doesnt mean it doesnt exist. She picked Airforce over Scientist. She is a soldier first. And a veteran at that!

Why did Carter charge in on the rescue mission in SG1 Episode 1? Because there was no one else with prior experience? Or did she decide to bypass a team of people already familiar with the situation and perfectly capable of handling it?

Sheppard led the rescue mission against the Wraith because there was no one else. No one had ever encountered them before. There was no one more experienced to defer to.

There's a world of difference between Sheppard leading a rescue mission in Rising and Carter jumping in on the mission in Reunion. I'm sure you can understand that there's a difference between not deferring to prior experience when there is no one with prior experience (Rising), and not deferring to prior experience when there is a already a group of seasoned veterans available (Reunion).

I didn't see Pegasus Project. Are you telling me that Carter came face to face with a Wraith in that episode? Or did she sit in a ship that fired on a Wraith ship?

prion
October 17th, 2007, 01:50 PM
Why did Carter charge in on the rescue mission in SG1 Episode 1? Because there was no one else with prior experience? Or did she decide to bypass a team of people already familiar with the situation and perfectly capable of handling it?

Sheppard led the rescue mission against the Wraith because there was no one else. No one had ever encountered them before. There was no one more experienced to defer to.

There's a world of difference between Sheppard leading a rescue mission in Rising and Carter jumping in on the mission in Reunion. I'm sure you can understand that there's a difference between not deferring to prior experience when there is no one with prior experience (Rising), and not deferring to prior experience when there is a already a group of seasoned veterans available (Reunion).

I didn't see Pegasus Project. Are you telling me that Carter came face to face with a Wraith in that episode? Or did she sit in a ship that fired on a Wraith ship?

Being in a ship fired on by a Wraith ship is no different than being fired on by a Gou'ald ship or earth ship, etc. Coming face to face to someone who, can by force of sheer will, make you drop your weapon, and suck the very life out of you, is a lot different. Don't believe Sam has had a a face-to-face with a Wraith yet.

But like some have pointed out, where's the fun in the no-name characters doing the rescue.

I honestly don't think Sam had any more knowledge of the situation than Lorne or any other military person on Atlantis (the latter of which have had experience with Wraith). All that was required was for Ronon to lead a team back to the base/ship/nest and blow the hell out of it and rescue their people. The wraith really should lock their doors. Any ole' riff-raff seems to be able come in and pillage the place; )

Ruffles
October 17th, 2007, 02:02 PM
Is it logical? Hmmm.... Maybe not. But sometimes the smart answer isn't the right answer. She has stepped into a sticky situation replacing a well-liked leader lost in horrible circumstances. These people (and non-SG1 viewers) don't know her. She has already had a heated confrontation with Ronon over his Satedan friends. He pushed, and she pushed back. Hard. His first instinct on reaching Atlantis was to head straight to see Carter.

In my happy place, she made the decision to go on the op at that moment. Was she risking her life? Yes. Could she be replaced if she were killed? Yes. She had been there a day, maybe 2. The IOA hadn't thrown that short list away yet.

She took a big chance heading off-world, but Ronon and the rest of Atlantis learned something valuable by her actions: she would risk her life for them. She'll fight with them and for them. She has the background and know-how to lead a rescue operation. She had Ronon's guidance and Zelenka's technical expertise along with some Marines for back-up. Sheppard didn't seem one bit surprised when she showed up at that cell door.

Pretend for a moment that Sheppard was in charge and Lorne had been captured. Can you see Sheppard assigning the rescue to someone else, or would he run straight to the jumper bay?

SG13-NightOps
October 17th, 2007, 02:40 PM
Why did Carter charge in on the rescue mission in SG1 Episode 1? Because there was no one else with prior experience? Or did she decide to bypass a team of people already familiar with the situation and perfectly capable of handling it?

Sheppard led the rescue mission against the Wraith because there was no one else. No one had ever encountered them before. There was no one more experienced to defer to.

There's a world of difference between Sheppard leading a rescue mission in Rising and Carter jumping in on the mission in Reunion. I'm sure you can understand that there's a difference between not deferring to prior experience when there is no one with prior experience (Rising), and not deferring to prior experience when there is a already a group of seasoned veterans available (Reunion).

I didn't see Pegasus Project. Are you telling me that Carter came face to face with a Wraith in that episode? Or did she sit in a ship that fired on a Wraith ship?

You are saying she has no expertise. I am showing you that she has plenty of expertise in facing off against an unknown enemy on a S&R mission.
Plus - the wraith are not unknown. I am sure you can understand the difference between Unknown enemy and an Enemy you have lots of Intel on.

On the peggy project thing.. How many teams ON Atlantis can you guarantee me have gone face to face with the Wraith?

Jumper_One
October 17th, 2007, 04:54 PM
nope it's probably not logical for Carter to go off-world. she's the leader of Atlantis and as such stay there and just send Shep or another team to do the job. having said that i don't think we'll see her heading out anytime soon (except for Earth maybe). except of course if they're in a desperate situation which calls for desperate measures. however Reunion is is the first episode with Carter in command and TPTB probably just wanted to show her in action, her initiative and leadership skills. that's it IMO

Mitchell82
October 17th, 2007, 05:11 PM
Is it logical? Hmmm.... Maybe not. But sometimes the smart answer isn't the right answer. She has stepped into a sticky situation replacing a well-liked leader lost in horrible circumstances. These people (and non-SG1 viewers) don't know her. She has already had a heated confrontation with Ronon over his Satedan friends. He pushed, and she pushed back. Hard. His first instinct on reaching Atlantis was to head straight to see Carter.

In my happy place, she made the decision to go on the op at that moment. Was she risking her life? Yes. Could she be replaced if she were killed? Yes. She had been there a day, maybe 2. The IOA hadn't thrown that short list away yet.

She took a big chance heading off-world, but Ronon and the rest of Atlantis learned something valuable by her actions: she would risk her life for them. She'll fight with them and for them. She has the background and know-how to lead a rescue operation. She had Ronon's guidance and Zelenka's technical expertise along with some Marines for back-up. Sheppard didn't seem one bit surprised when she showed up at that cell door.

Pretend for a moment that Sheppard was in charge and Lorne had been captured. Can you see Sheppard assigning the rescue to someone else, or would he run straight to the jumper bay?
You said it better than me. Well done. I agree 100%. She gained alot of respect that day by showing just how far she would go.

garhkal
October 17th, 2007, 09:01 PM
shes the leader-she can pretty much do what she wants. maybe she hadn't gone on a mission for a while and felt like seeing some action.

For Submersion i felt she went with the team cause her translation skills of ancient were going to be needed.

prion
October 18th, 2007, 05:12 AM
... but Ronon and the rest of Atlantis learned something valuable by her actions: she would risk her life for them. She'll fight with them and for them. She has the background and know-how to lead a rescue operation. She had Ronon's guidance and Zelenka's technical expertise along with some Marines for back-up. Sheppard didn't seem one bit surprised when she showed up at that cell door.



That's precisely why the writers made Carter do the rescue - so that the viewers would see that. Didn't matter that logic didn't truly play into that decision, but the deed's done. However, if they keep having her go off-world for stuff, then someone from the USAF should take them aside and explain what the top folk on a base do.

maxbo
October 18th, 2007, 07:58 AM
Sam's first time off-world in SGA didn't work for me because I was left with the same 'what is she doing there?' feeling that I usually had when Elizabeth was written off-world. All too often when Elizabeth was written off-world it was clear that she was only included because TPTB were trying to give the character more air time - sometimes I was able to just shrug and accept it and other times, her being off-world was glaringly out of place.

Although I understand that TPTB always planned to have Sam go off-world in SGA, I was hoping that they would put more thought into the reasons for her off-world missions, especially her first off-world mission. IMO, a rescue mission that any soldier could have handled is not what I had in mind.

prion
October 18th, 2007, 09:24 AM
That's odd, I thought he was carrying the Ancient scanner therefor he had the gene. My bad on that one, sorry. Although it looked like a scanner, hell it even sounded like one. I think JM is just trying to cover up a goof to be honest but hey, who am I to disagree with a PTB.

Lots of folks thought Ancient scanner. The other kind of scanner Mallozzi mentioned was sorta new to many of us.


I very much agree with you. They were starting in repeating S1 plots in S3 second part. I couldn't imaging what Weir would have bring to S4 in the previous state ... What? A new situation of quarantine like in 'Hot Zone', going off-world to traduce something ancient, another alliance with the Wraith. The writers had so very little to work with and Weir was created such an isolated character, unimaginative (1-2 original ideas in 3 seasons) and frankly too bureacratic for a sci-fi show.

If this would have been Star Trek, a Weir like character would have had a top spot there, with all those inter-species relations (not leading the ship of course), but in this universe her character seem out of place. Really don't you think that is better to change a character rather than a universe?


Changing universe? heavens no, but get the writers out of hte restaurants, off the game sites, whatever, and make 'em read some historical books, see that not every war is won with bullets and bombs but negotiations. Or at least not just suddenly do a complete 180 where Weir is going "maybe I'll quit" and then blow her out a window 30 minutes later...



So you say ... but i didn't see Lorne once attempting a rescuing mission (writers foul), and i saw Carter succeding quite a few in SG1. And then let's shoot the writers for not giving Lorne more screen. If it will be after me i would wish a 10 characters main cast. But so, with Lorne still recurring and Sam main cast, is not logical like a such important resource like Sam to be wasted siting in the city even if she is the most qualified to run this one, again a exception with Sheppard captured.

And frankly i'm not very much fond of Lorne. I find him a very previsible character with very uninteresting lines there. I rather see Sam interacting with the Wraith (premiere) at some level. Being the leader now, it is also logical for her to see first hand the enemy, no? Is not like she lead the team off-word every day now.

The reason why characters do or don't do things is a) personal preference, b) in terms of guest actors, their availability. No actor is gonna hang around waiting for a call and passing up other jobs. I'm fond of Lorne myself. I'd like to see him in more episodes but if he's not there, he's on 4400 (which hopefully gets a pickup for next year). However, due to the actor availability thing, his character can be rewritten to 'military guest star #1' as it was in "Sateda" - the guy asking the drugged-up shot-in-ass McKay was supposed to have been Lorne but he was doing 4400, as I recall.

The thing is, will they have Carter launching rescues first-hand, or will she actually sit back and delegate, like a commander is supposed to do? It's up to the writers. I'm still waitign for another episode or two to make decisions on her command ability. So far, what's she done is a calculated means to entice viewers to like the character and show her worth (it's how they handled Jonas too, and how other shows have done it).

Agent_Dark
October 19th, 2007, 03:07 AM
Being in a ship fired on by a Wraith ship is no different than being fired on by a Gou'ald ship or earth ship, etc. Coming face to face to someone who, can by force of sheer will, make you drop your weapon, and suck the very life out of you, is a lot different. Don't believe Sam has had a a face-to-face with a Wraith yet.
What's so different to facing a Wraith than facing an Goa'uld? Goa'uld's have personal shields that can grant protection from weapons fire, hand devices that can fling you across the room and then close up and torture you with the hand device to your head. Or just zat you and implant you with a symbiote. There are things that are generic to combat. Learning to deal with fear, panic and FUBAR situations are one of them.

prion
October 19th, 2007, 09:17 AM
What's so different to facing a Wraith than facing an Goa'uld? Goa'uld's have personal shields that can grant protection from weapons fire, hand devices that can fling you across the room and then close up and torture you with the hand device to your head. Or just zat you and implant you with a symbiote. There are things that are generic to combat. Learning to deal with fear, panic and FUBAR situations are one of them.

Goa'ulds have two agenda: enslave you / take you as a host

Wraith have one objective, no well, could be three: breakfast, lunch or dinner.

That's the difference ;)

Mitchell82
October 19th, 2007, 01:35 PM
Goa'ulds have two agenda: enslave you / take you as a host

Wraith have one objective, no well, could be three: breakfast, lunch or dinner.

That's the difference ;)

:lol:

Cameron Mitchel
October 19th, 2007, 01:40 PM
What's so different to facing a Wraith than facing an Goa'uld? Goa'uld's have personal shields that can grant protection from weapons fire, hand devices that can fling you across the room and then close up and torture you with the hand device to your head. Or just zat you and implant you with a symbiote. There are things that are generic to combat. Learning to deal with fear, panic and FUBAR situations are one of them.
Carter fought Jaffa, not Goa'uld. She ran into maybe three face-to-face (if not less--I only remember Seth).

Arwen Undomiel
October 19th, 2007, 01:48 PM
Well, Weir was a civilian, and not a soldier, like Carter. For Carter, it's natural to go off-world, she did it for ten years with sg-1. But as a leader, she can't risk it in every episode to go with a team. I think I've already said it in one topic about Reunion, that for some saving mission, it was merely illogical from her to go out. And Zelenka? What was the reason for him? I can't see any.

Agent_Dark
October 19th, 2007, 05:40 PM
Goa'ulds have two agenda: enslave you / take you as a host

Wraith have one objective, no well, could be three: breakfast, lunch or dinner.

That's the difference ;)

You end up as good as dead either way.

Agent_Dark
October 19th, 2007, 05:46 PM
Carter fought Jaffa, not Goa'uld. She ran into maybe three face-to-face (if not less--I only remember Seth).

Apophis (multiple times)
Hathor (twice)
The Ashrak that tried to kill her in In the Line of Duty
Seth
Osiris (three times)
That Goa'uld with the stupid name that I can't remember in Evolution 2
Ba'al (multiple times)
Kull Warriors (multiples times. This is before they came up with an effective weapon against them, and were pretty much invulnerable).

That's just off the top of my head.

Skydiver
October 19th, 2007, 08:07 PM
there's also Nirti
she dealt with cronos (saved his life actually) and Yu
She happened to kill seth

SG13-NightOps
October 20th, 2007, 08:29 PM
Carter fought Jaffa, not Goa'uld. She ran into maybe three face-to-face (if not less--I only remember Seth).

There is so much wrong about this statement I dont even know where to begin, LOL.

First, Agent Dark and Skydiver have pointed out the error in your maths. But next - The Goa'uld only keep their power because of their jaffa. That little ribbon device has nothing on a Jaffa's staff weapon. Neither does a Wraith Stunner while we are talking about that.

while we are there.....



Goa'ulds have two agenda: enslave you / take you as a host

Wraith have one objective, no well, could be three: breakfast, lunch or dinner.

That's the difference

Actually, the Goa'uld only have one Agenda when dealing with SG1. Kill them.

Next, lets highlight the BIG differences between the Wraith and what she HAS fought before.

The wraith have,Ships, Darts, Wraith Stunners and are strong. Their purpose is to knock you out and eat you later. With Atlantis, the purpose is to find a way to earth... so Killing them is not top of the agenda list. At worst, they are put in an unguarded fridge and given the opportunity to escape.

Goa'uld: Want to Kill SG1, have ships with shields, death gliders, Staff Weapons, Zats, naquedah, a good grasp of older ancient technology and body snatching tenancies.
On top of that, Anubis had the Kull Warriors, which make your standard Wraith Grunt look like a child in comparison (and why the hell arent the SGA team using their armour???) and a full grasp of Ancient technology.

Finally - we have the Ori... There isnt a wraith in all of Pegasus with the powers of a Prior.

If we were to do a scale on who was the most dangerous bad guy in the whole Stargate Universe - I dont see the Wraith topping the list. Carter has faced far more dangerous opponents than a hungry, angry alien.

garhkal
October 20th, 2007, 11:27 PM
I might put a wraith queen on the same level as a prior in mind powers.

Mitchell82
October 21st, 2007, 09:39 PM
There is so much wrong about this statement I dont even know where to begin, LOL.

First, Agent Dark and Skydiver have pointed out the error in your maths. But next - The Goa'uld only keep their power because of their jaffa. That little ribbon device has nothing on a Jaffa's staff weapon. Neither does a Wraith Stunner while we are talking about that.

while we are there.....




Actually, the Goa'uld only have one Agenda when dealing with SG1. Kill them.

Next, lets highlight the BIG differences between the Wraith and what she HAS fought before.

The wraith have,Ships, Darts, Wraith Stunners and are strong. Their purpose is to knock you out and eat you later. With Atlantis, the purpose is to find a way to earth... so Killing them is not top of the agenda list. At worst, they are put in an unguarded fridge and given the opportunity to escape.

Goa'uld: Want to Kill SG1, have ships with shields, death gliders, Staff Weapons, Zats, naquedah, a good grasp of older ancient technology and body snatching tenancies.
On top of that, Anubis had the Kull Warriors, which make your standard Wraith Grunt look like a child in comparison (and why the hell arent the SGA team using their armour???) and a full grasp of Ancient technology.

Finally - we have the Ori... There isnt a wraith in all of Pegasus with the powers of a Prior.

If we were to do a scale on who was the most dangerous bad guy in the whole Stargate Universe - I dont see the Wraith topping the list. Carter has faced far more dangerous opponents than a hungry, angry alien.

Couldnt have said it better my self.

SG13-NightOps
October 27th, 2007, 08:56 PM
I might put a wraith queen on the same level as a prior in mind powers.

You would probably be alone.

A Wraith Keeper made Sumner kneel - A Prior almost wiped out the population of Earth with a plague.
The Wraith queen got Shot - the Prior went Matrix on us.

No contest, IMO.

ReganX
October 28th, 2007, 04:37 AM
Now as to Carter. So far we have seen her do it once. Now while some don't think it made sense it did. She was just put in command. Her main duty is to maintain the secrecy of Atlantis's new postition. She also was very qualified for the mission. She didn't want to risk a team on an obvious ambush. She also needed to gain the trust of the rest of the expedition as well as Ronon. She mad the right call.

Excellent points, especially the one highlighted.

Sam is very much aware that she is the new kid on the block, but more than that she is the new kid on the block who is now in charge. She's ideally qualified for the job, and her experience on SG-1 and at the SGC has already proven beneficial but while some, indeed many, of the members of the Atlantis expedition may know of her by reputation, they don't know her. But their lives are in her hands.

Earlier in the episode, Sam made some tough decisions; to refuse Ronan permission to invite his friends to Atlantis and to refuse Sheppard permission to run off on a suicide mission to rescue Weir. While I think that she was right on both counts, her actions could have given the impression that she was always going to take the safe route and follow the letter of the law, even if it meant leaving people behind.

As Sam herself said in "Heroes";
We don't just leave people behind. You can't ask airmen, soldiers ... Human beings to risk their lives without backup, without knowing that we would be there for them.

By going on that rescue mission, Sam showed everyone on Atlantis that she would be there for them, and that their lives were important to her.

jz9
October 29th, 2007, 02:26 PM
Excellent points, especially the one highlighted.

Sam is very much aware that she is the new kid on the block, but more than that she is the new kid on the block who is now in charge. She's ideally qualified for the job, and her experience on SG-1 and at the SGC has already proven beneficial but while some, indeed many, of the members of the Atlantis expedition may know of her by reputation, they don't know her. But their lives are in her hands.

Earlier in the episode, Sam made some tough decisions; to refuse Ronan permission to invite his friends to Atlantis and to refuse Sheppard permission to run off on a suicide mission to rescue Weir. While I think that she was right on both counts, her actions could have given the impression that she was always going to take the safe route and follow the letter of the law, even if it meant leaving people behind.

As Sam herself said in "Heroes";

By going on that rescue mission, Sam showed everyone on Atlantis that she would be there for them, and that their lives were important to her.


I agreed with you and Mitchell82. I put something similar in the Sam thread last night, but I have just found this thread - the correct place for the discussion. Exactly what I wanted to say, only you said it so much better!

maxbo
October 31st, 2007, 10:44 AM
Although I still don't believe it's "logical" for Sam to go off-world, I'm beginning to appreciate her going off-world in Reunion more. Mainly because I believe she stood to gain more by going off-world in that episode than she would have if she had stayed within Atlantis.

In fact, I think going off-world at the beginning of her stint as head of Atlantis probably makes more sense than when she goes off-world later. Why? Because in Reunion, Sam hadn't had time to put her stamp on things, so she wasn't as integral to the running of Altantis as she would become later. Whatever contingency plans that had been put in place after Elizabeth's loss were probably still in effect so there probably wasn't much she could do that someone else in Atlantis couldn't handle at that point.

I think that sometime between her last conversation with Ronon in Atlantis and her conversation with him in the jumper that she had decided that she needed to prove her support and dedication to Atlantis and that the best way to do that was to join the rescue. By going off-world in Reunion, Sam was able to not only show support for SGA's first team (and her 2nd in command), but she was also able to ensure the rest of Atlantis that she, as Atlantis' new head, would have their backs as well - just as Elizabeth had.

Cautious Explorer
November 1st, 2007, 04:08 AM
Although I still don't believe it's "logical" for Sam to go off-world, I'm beginning to appreciate her going off-world in Reunion more. Mainly because I believe she stood to gain more by going off-world in that episode than she would have if she had stayed within Atlantis.

In fact, I think going off-world at the beginning of her stint as head of Atlantis probably makes more sense than when she goes off-world later. Why? Because in Reunion, Sam hadn't had time to put her stamp on things, so she wasn't as integral to the running of Altantis as she would become later. Whatever contingency plans that had been put in place after Elizabeth's loss were probably still in effect so there probably wasn't much she could do that someone else in Atlantis couldn't handle at that point.

I think that sometime between her last conversation with Ronon in Atlantis and her conversation with him in the jumper that she had decided that she needed to prove her support and dedication to Atlantis and that the best way to do that was to join the rescue. By going off-world in Reunion, Sam was able to not only show support for SGA's first team (and her 2nd in command), but she was also able to ensure the rest of Atlantis that she, as Atlantis' new head, would have their backs as well - just as Elizabeth had.

I agree with you, it wasn't at all logical and was totally about Carter proving herself. I just wish the writers hadn't been so heavy-handed with their efforts. Because it wasn't logical, IMO it served to point out very clearly that the writing wasn't to serve the story, but to serve an agenda:
1. We must prove that there was a need to put Carter in command.
2. We must prove that Carter is military and can handle a gun.
3. We must prove that the tiny bit of conflict we provided with Ronon is over, and that he has a reason to bond with Carter now.
4. We must prove that Carter is part of the team.
5. We must prove that Carter is dedicated to Atlantis.

Was there really a need to "prove" all of this within one show? A little subtlety over a longer period of time would have worked a lot better for me.

Skydiver
November 2nd, 2007, 10:01 AM
yet, one of the strongest crits of s9 and 10 was the endless 'tell but don't show' attitude that they had. Where we were told countless times how qualified somene was, yet rarely saw thier skills in action.

Again, if Sam ran off world every week, i would have an issue. 3-4 times out of 14 episodes, she's on par with Weir's sojourns off world

ReganX
November 2nd, 2007, 03:32 PM
yet, one of the strongest crits of s9 and 10 was the endless 'tell but don't show' attitude that they had. Where we were told countless times how qualified somene was, yet rarely saw thier skills in action.

Good point. If it was a choice between seeing Sam go on one or two missions or hearing other characters reciting sonnets about her military prowess, I'll go with the latter.


Again, if Sam ran off world every week, i would have an issue. 3-4 times out of 14 episodes, she's on par with Weir's sojourns off world

All things in moderation. A few trips offworld are no problem but, as you say, every week would be another story altogether.

ReganX
November 2nd, 2007, 03:39 PM
1. We must prove that there was a need to put Carter in command.

I thought they handled that part at the beginning of the episode; Weir was gone, so somebody needed to be in command. According to McKay, the IOA opted for their foremost expert in Ancient and Replicator technology.

They didn't need to make a song and dance about it, and I don't think they did.


2. We must prove that Carter is military and can handle a gun.

Well, the uniform probably gave the military part away. :) Seriously, I'm sure that there are fans of Atlantis who don't watch SG-1, so there's no harm in showing that Sam can handle herself in combat.


3. We must prove that the tiny bit of conflict we provided with Ronon is over, and that he has a reason to bond with Carter now.

Honestly, I don't see Ronan bonding with Sam. She may have earned his respect, but that's it.


4. We must prove that Carter is part of the team.

5. We must prove that Carter is dedicated to Atlantis.

She's not part of the team, and as expedition leader she can't be. She's in charge, she's calling the shots and she's responsible for the lives of every member of the expedition. They proved your fifth point. Sam is dedicated to the people of Atlantis and is going to be there for them.

Cautious Explorer
November 2nd, 2007, 04:40 PM
I thought they handled that part at the beginning of the episode; Weir was gone, so somebody needed to be in command. According to McKay, the IOA opted for their foremost expert in Ancient and Replicator technology.

They didn't need to make a song and dance about it, and I don't think they did.

Of course they had to put someone in command, and part of the theme of this episode was proving to us that Carter was the perfect fit. The rescue mission was just another little attempt to hammer that home.



Well, the uniform probably gave the military part away. :) Seriously, I'm sure that there are fans of Atlantis who don't watch SG-1, so there's no harm in showing that Sam can handle herself in combat.

Yes the uniform was a hint, and I did understand that Col was a rank and not a nickname. Again, the point was to remind us that Carter was a perfect fit because she was more than a desk commander. Hence the need to prove she could handle a gun. (Although it seems Hammond did just fine without going out on missions.)

I'm one of those people who don't watch SG-1. It didn't show me anything. She didn't demonstrate any particular skill in combat that any other soldier on Atlantis didn't have. She wasn't a liability, but she wasn't an asset either. It wasn't convincing to me.



Honestly, I don't see Ronan bonding with Sam. She may have earned his respect, but that's it.


Call it what you want -- bonding or respect. The writer's intent was still clear. The rescue mission was used as a way to prove that the animosity caused by her mistrust needed to be addressed and fixed neatly within this one episode.



She's not part of the team, and as expedition leader she can't be. She's in charge, she's calling the shots and she's responsible for the lives of every member of the expedition. They proved your fifth point. Sam is dedicated to the people of Atlantis and is going to be there for them.

I'm using "team" in the broader sense here, as in part of Atlantis. She certainly isn't part of Sheppard's team.

The intent was to prove that Carter was dedicated to Atlantis. I'm not sure they proved that -- at least not to me. Logically, allowing people with years of experience in Pegasus, as well as experience under Sheppard's command, to go on the mission would have made more sense. To me it looked like a woman who sacrificed logic in order to enhance her own image to her new command. Or if not that, then a woman who didn't understand what her job was yet.

jasminaGo
February 14th, 2008, 11:43 AM
I think it was very important for Carter to go the rescue mission. And i really doubt it was because she wanted to prove herself, but she needed to see how things are in the Pegasus galaxy. It's one thing to read reports about the Wraith but she can't send people to fight them if she doesn't fully understand what they're facing, form a military point.

I believe it was a rational decision she made not for the benefit of others, but to allow her to be a better leader.

Sure she won't go running off-world at any sign of trouble, but there are occasions where her presence is needed. Like BAMSR, where she is the one who solved the glitch to Rodney's plan while he was panicking, and everyone's else solution was to nuke everything.

generaloneill
June 4th, 2008, 12:04 PM
i don't see why almost everyone in this thread has a problem with colonel carter going offworld

general hammond went off world 4 times
in the episodes prisoners, into the fire, forever in a day and fallen

general o'neill went offworld once in season 8 in the episode ot good to be king and what i like to call offgalaxy in season 4 of atlantis in the episodes the return 1+2

general landry went offworld in the episodes the 4th horseman part 2counterstrike and unending

slurredspeech
June 23rd, 2009, 12:06 PM
This is so entirely post haste but I've been nrowsing back through various threads and couldn't help myself on this one; faulty logic grates on me.

@FallenAngelII. Dude, your argument about Carter not knowing the Wraith before her first op against them doesn't hold water. It's like saying a soldier fighting in Sierra Leone or Bosnia isn't equipped to fight against Iraqi's. Because he never had a first-hand experience in the Middle East. Being pretty damn familiar with how the military works, I can assure you that is not the case.

I'm not completely in disagreement with either side (not that it matters this late in the game) but that particular point is completely devoid of logic.

Cautious Explorer
June 23rd, 2009, 12:42 PM
This is so entirely post haste but I've been nrowsing back through various threads and couldn't help myself on this one; faulty logic grates on me.

@FallenAngelII. Dude, your argument about Carter not knowing the Wraith before her first op against them doesn't hold water. It's like saying a soldier fighting in Sierra Leone or Bosnia isn't equipped to fight against Iraqi's. Because he never had a first-hand experience in the Middle East. Being pretty damn familiar with how the military works, I can assure you that is not the case.

I'm not completely in disagreement with either side (not that it matters this late in the game) but that particular point is completely devoid of logic.

Even if we ignore the fact that you'll be fighting against another human being, whether in Sierra Leone or Bosnia, rather than an aliens you've never encountered before, shouldn't local experience count for something? If you've already got soldiers who've been stationed in Bosnia for 2-3 years, why would you tell them to sit it out while the brand new commander, shipped in that day from Sierra Leone, goes rushing in.

It doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

slurredspeech
June 23rd, 2009, 12:58 PM
True, the life form will be different but I believe people - FallenAngel being one of them - mentioned the lay of the land, the weapons, the tactics as a big part of it and the thing to drive the point home. And those thing differ on our own little planet as much as in the Stargate Land.

Soldiers get re-positioned all the time. Depending on the country and its military policies, some reg's will be stationed at one place for as short as three to six months in one go; after that they will be replace with a different regiment. One that will no doubt contain people who never fought a battle, let alone that particular type. (I belive the US military has longer tours lasting as long as a year and a half in one go).

I agree with you about the need to have people familiar with the threat going with (which was supposed the be the One Man Army Ronon, I guess?) and I never said that a high ranking CO would go head-in to the battle field in your ordinary Earth ops. In fact, as said in my previous post, I'm divided on the issue. But that particular argument wasn't going to prove the point.

Ziel
June 24th, 2009, 04:06 PM
I think that it's alright for the base commander to go off-world, as long as the 2nd in command ''minds the house''.

When you look at the times that the 'base commander' goes off-world with leaving '2nd in command' in charge vs. without.
It's as follows:

General Hammond - times off-world 4 ,
with '2nd in command' in charge; 0 + without '2nd in command' in charge;4

In each case to rescue O'Neill or, in ''Forever In A Day'' a funeral

Gen. O'Neill - times off-world 1 ,
with '2nd in command' in charge; 0 + without '2nd in command' in charge;1

In ''It's Good To Be King'' he goes with SG-1 to see the Jumper. He did need to go off-world due to the ATA gene. Perhaps Sam could have stayed at the SGC.

Spoilers for SG-1 Season 9 + 10
Gen. Hank Landry - times off-world 2 ,
with '2nd in command' in charge; 0 + without '2nd in command' in charge;2

In both cases had to go off-world, as did '2nd in command', ie. Sam.

Dr. Weir - times off-world 6 ,
with '2nd in command' in charge; 1 + without '2nd in command' in charge;5

She went off-world for ''Home'', ''The Seige'', "Condemned", ''Epiphany", "Progeny" & "Lifeline''

For ''The Seige'' it was needed so they could get nukes from the Genii, both Col. Everett & Shep stayed on Atlantis.
For "Condemned", ''Epiphany" & "Progeny", not as nessacary IMHO.
In "Condemned'' she believed ''talks'' may have been needed,
for "Progeny'' it was, IMO, slightly risky, even for ''talks'',
In ''Epiphany", IMO, no need.
For ''Home'' it was a way ''back'', so IMO ok. For "Lifeline'' needed to go.

Spoilers for SG:A Season 4 +5
Sam - times off-world 5 ,
with '2nd in command' in charge; 2 + without '2nd in command' in charge;3
For ''Reunion'' I'm going to have to say it was purely because it was her first crisis, and therefore to prove herself to the expedition.
Went off-world for ''BAMSR'', ''Trio'' & ''Search And Rescue'', as well as in Alternative Timeline from ''Last Man''.
For ''BAMSR'' she was needed, I think.
In ''Trio'' was requested + Shep was left in charge,
For ''Search And Rescue'' Shep + others were in need of rescue, possibly wasn't needed to be on M2S-445.
For Alternative Timeline from ''Last Man'' it could be argued someone else could have commanded ''The Phoenix'' but still, Maj. Lorne was in charge while she was commanding ''The Phoenix''.

Woolsey times off-world 1 ,
with '2nd in command' in charge; 1 + without '2nd in command' in charge;0
Went off-world in ''First Contact'' when he was on the Daedalus with Shep staying on Atlantis.
It was nessacary for him to be off-world for that mission as he explained.

In closing I think that it is logical for the Base commander to go off-world in the right circumstances as long as the 2nd in command is left in charge of the base.