Death Counts

[Phenix]

I've been watching B5 again. Well I recently finished up the entire series. It TOOK forever and a day to do this but it was worthwhile.

My only question now is why are the death counts always so low? I mean the entire Narn home world is destroyed and the deaths are in the millions.... The Earth-Minbari war only sees a few million human causalities. I don't understand that figure since the outer colonies were totally destroyed and so were all human ships. One would think that that death count would rise into the tens of millions. I mean come on 25-30 million Russians died during WWII.

Even the Drakh battle should have had 100,000 to a million human causalities. I think it said 250 destroyers were lost and even if 100 people man a destroyer (unlikely) then that is at least 100,000+ deaths. Some might have made it out during the evacuation call.

[layla17]

My friend mentioned that to me recently and I paid no attention to him. You and him bring a good points about the death count though. The figures seem a little lopsided.

[P-90_177]

in terms of the earth/minbari war though keep in mind that they only attacked the colonies, when really the two largest earth populations are on earth and mars. I'd expect on most colonies there'd only be about half a million at most.

[maneth]

^That's a fair point. If the Minbari had ever attacked Earth, casualties would've been much higher.

Narns had been living in pretty miserable conditions since the Centauri occupation ended. I would hazard a guess that the Narn population decreased dramatically during and after the desertification of the planet.

[deathskull]

somehow i think maths wasn't the writer strong point when it comes down to triva

[jds1982]

Well the Minbari were working on the caste system, they'd kill a colonies defenders (warriors) and then move on, they wouldn't just totally annihalate a colony.

[Phenix]

Well the Minbari were working on the caste system, they'd kill a colonies defenders (warriors) and then move on, they wouldn't just totally annihalate a colony.

If you remember the B5 movie that had Londo narrating it shows that all humans especially able body males were fighting the Minbari. Even fighting the Minbari in hand to hand combat. Also all ships capable of fighting were going against the Minbari even though they were being destroyed. And the only way to keep the death count in the low millions is if each destroyer carries less than 100 crew members.

These were built after the Earth Minbari War but JMS says that the Omega class destroyer is 1.7 km and that is over a mile long. He also says that this great machine can run with only 360 people but can also hold 1,000 crew members. I assume there is room for ground troops. It also carries 36 Starfuries so at minimum compacity 10% of the crew is just Starfury pilots. Now call me crazy but Starfuries need specialized maintenance crews and generally you would have more than one man backing up the Starfury so even if its just two mechanics per Starfury then you are looking at what 30% of your crew dedicated to keeping the Starfury either in working order or running missions. Then you need the maintenance crews to keep the destroyer running and that does not get into the specialists needed to run each station in a mile long ship. How many people are needed to maintain the energy weapons? How many people are needed to maintain the propulsion system. His numbers are just too low in my opinion.

The great thing about B5 that most political decisions and social interactions were realistic. A planet like Earth with 10 billion humans would most likely have more than 50 million people in its global army. That is just 0.5% of the global population. Most current major powers have a higher percentage in their military and when at war the percentage would increase. I just think his numbers are low.

[Xicer]

Yep, what jds said, they really only attacked the military portions of the population. And also as P-90 said, they really only attacked some of the outer colonies. They completely bypassed Mars, the most populated Earth colony, and never actually attacked Earth itself. So I'd say they're numbers were fairly reasonable.

As for the Drakh battle, I think those numbers came from the Crusade episode "War Zone" which I personally don't put much faith in. JMS from the beginning that he wanted to start the series 6 months into the Excalibur's mission but TNT wanted him to make a pilot episode that would give background information on both the characters and the main plot. JMS himself doesn't even consider the episode as canon.

[Phenix]

Yep, what jds said, they really only attacked the military portions of the population. And also as P-90 said, they really only attacked some of the outer colonies. They completely bypassed Mars, the most populated Earth colony, and never actually attacked Earth itself. So I'd say they're numbers were fairly reasonable.

As for the Drakh battle, I think those numbers came from the Crusade episode "War Zone" which I personally don't put much faith in. JMS from the beginning that he wanted to start the series 6 months into the Excalibur's mission but TNT wanted him to make a pilot episode that would give background information on both the characters and the main plot. JMS himself doesn't even consider the episode as canon.

Don't get me wrong I understand that JMS lays down the law in all things B5 but I just think his numbers are low.

[X-3-0-2]

FEMA actually does its job in the future

the alien version of FEMA is even more competent

[gopher65]

I thought this too.

In fact, I have this problem in general with scifi. On Star Trek for instance they mention "thousands" of people dying during the Cardassian war. Hah. I realize that Galaxy class ships weren't around back then, but they carry over 1000 crew members at all times. The smaller ships that were around still carried 500+. That alone would mean billions of deaths in all likelyhood. Think of how many civilian freighters a civ like the federation must have.

And even then, I'm flabbergasted that any writer would think that an interstellar war between two mammoth civilizations that each control millions of star systems (not all inhabited, and not all with planets, but still) would be engaged in with only a few hundred ships. They have 100+ max population earthlike worlds in the Federation, not including countless colony worlds and outposts. And you can have asteroid mining posts and shipyards even in the dead systems, even in systems with no planets.

And they only had a couple hundred military vessels? (sorry, not military ships. Science ships with a torpedo tube duct taped onto the side) Ahahahaha. Bad bad bad writing.

[maneth]

I'm just thinking that interstellar war would be too unprofitable to pursue for long. So they'd have ships for defense, but not necessarily all that many for attack. Smaller planets would be left with a planetary defense grid and some fighters, they just couldn't afford to have ships in permanent orbit around any except the mother worlds, in additions to squadrons in space that would be sent to any trouble spot fairly quickly (within weeks).

[Wordsmit2]

In fact, I have this problem in general with scifi. On Star Trek for instance they mention "thousands" of people dying during the Cardassian war. Hah. I realize that Galaxy class ships weren't around back then, but they carry over 1000 crew members at all times. The smaller ships that were around still carried 500+. That alone would mean billions of deaths in all likelyhood.

This obliquely brings up something almost all TV shows and movies have gotten wrong ever since it became fashionable to have great big explosions:

In war, to "destroy" something, all you have to do is destroy its ability to fight or move. Those massive explosions are nonsense, just like automobiles blowing up in huge fireballs are nonsense. But movies and TV shows aren't made for military personnel, they're made for civilians, and civilians want massive destruction and huge death tolls so they can feel secure in their moral superiority. Shows rarely mention wounded, because civilians only care about killed. The rare script that does usually bases the numbers on an actual historic battle.

If you're looking for it in Babylon 5 (and to a lesser degree Star Trek), the ongoing behind-the-scenes argument gets kind of comical: In some episodes a ship is taken out by disabling its propulsion and weapons. (And there are lifepods.) In others we see fires (e.g. B5's "Severed Dreams"). And in others there are the cliche big explosions and debris clouds.

An offshoot of the "Explosions! We need explosions! Explosions! Whee!" school of entertainment is that everything is equipped with a self-destruct device. Oh my, my unarmed merchant ship is being overrun by pirates. I know, I'll set the self-destruct and blow it up and kill all the pirates! Bwahahaha! --Absolute nonsense. And if people can't figure out five or ten reasons why blowing a ship or building to smithereens is stupid, I despair for them.


Think of how many civilian freighters a civ like the federation must have.

Not sure what this has to do with the issue.


And even then, I'm flabbergasted that any writer would think that an interstellar war between two mammoth civilizations that each control millions of star systems (not all inhabited, and not all with planets, but still) would be engaged in with only a few hundred ships.

Because ships of war must be built and equipped and shaken down, and must travel to mission sites. Because many are set to guard detail; only a few are out looking for trouble. Because people need to figure out how to build it all and fly it all and mend it all when it goes wrong (which it constantly does). It takes time and strategy, and no one who cares likes to lose.


They have 100+ max population earthlike worlds in the Federation, not including countless colony worlds and outposts. And you can have asteroid mining posts and shipyards even in the dead systems, even in systems with no planets.

And they only had a couple hundred military vessels? (sorry, not military ships. Science ships with a torpedo tube duct taped onto the side) Ahahahaha. Bad bad bad writing.

Someone has to turn the raw materials into ships and engines and guns and (if your universe has them) shields. That takes people and time, and it has to be paid for. People just don't want to work when they're starving, threadbare, or injured, no matter how big an honor they're told it is; in fact, they often just want to die so it will be over.

And many of the people you need are usually already engaged in the trade--the specialists, the engineers, the designers. (The analysts, the linguists, the sergeants, the colonels...) You can't siphon them off, so where do you get more? Most people wouldn't dream of signing up: "It's not my war." "It'll be over any day now, so why bother?" "I want to stay home." "Maybe my neighborhood will be ignored if we stay quiet." "I wasn't asked in a way that appealed to me." "I have to protect my property." "I can make better money in my current job." And those newbies you do get have to learn how to do it. It takes a lot of time just to get the unskilled workers trained. It takes years, often decades, to train more specialists.

For reality in your writing, pick a historic war. Or pick a current war and ask what changes did I make in my life? How have I helped to bring a speedy peace? How many military funerals have I attended? How many wounded am I helping to adapt to their new lives?

[maneth]

I think the assumption here is that if a spaceship blows up, everyone on board dies. A few may escape in pods, but certainly those too would be vulnerable to enemy fighters.

Today, if a particular battle has a casualty rate of 10%, it's considered a major disaster. In some battles during the American Civil War, over 30% of troops were killed.

[Jumper_One]

I'm guessing every ship whether in B5 or ST only has the needed crew onboard which reduces the casualties. for example in ST during the Dominion war even the Galaxy class ships wouldn't have a crew of 1000+ since they were fighting and thus didn't need scientists and other personnel. just wanted to add this

[the_dark_light]

^That's a fair point. If the Minbari had ever attacked Earth, casualties would've been much higher.

Narns had been living in pretty miserable conditions since the Centauri occupation ended. I would hazard a guess that the Narn population decreased dramatically during and after the desertification of the planet.

Not to mention Centauri ethnic cleansing (Narn deaths were something the Centauri seemed to take as a source of humour)

[gopher65]

First off I'd like to start by saying that I found the number and type of ships on B5 far easier to swallow than on shows like Star Trek. But since I started with ST in my previous post, I'll do it again here:

Wordsmit2, my point was that their military forces are far to small in comparison to their economic output and their population. Let's use the current US military as an example. The US military is far smaller (and far cheaper) on a per capita basis than the militaries of many other countries on Earth at the present time, and its size is well known, so I thought it would make a good average template.

Since I'm from Canada, I'll mention our military. You know the decrepit and tiny Canadian military? Well the US only spends about 3.5 times as much per capita as Canada does. Canada is on the low end of the scale, Israel and Saudi Arabia are on the high end of the scale. US military spending is pretty much smack in the middle of the pack. The US just has a huge population and a decent economy, so it spends a lot in actual dollar terms (like China), but not on a per capita basis. I thought it was a safe bet to assume that the main federation planets, what with replicators and infinite power generation capacities and all, have at least as much in the way of resources per capita as the US does. Probably a lot more (in B5 this isn't true. There they probably have a smaller per capita resource allotment than the current US does, and thus probably a smaller per capita military).

Anyway, given all of that, and the fact that the Federation sees itself as facing constant annihilation or potential slavery at the hands of ruthless enemies, I thought it would be a decent comparison.

US population: ~300 million
US military size (not including the national guard, state guards, other militias, or police forces, all of which are substantial in and of themselves): ~2,700,000.

2.7/300 = 0.9% of the population is directly involved with the military.

The sources I could find on the internet state that the Federation has a population of about 1 trillion. Now, all of the main 100 to 150 main planets in the federation apparently have to be utopias (or darned close) before they are allowed into the Federation (as we see on numerous episodes), so I think it is safe to say that they won't need much in the way of ground troops, or navies, or airforces. It is also safe to say that the main threats to the security of the Federation would come from outside the Federation in the form of either direct military assault or terrorism. Internal terrorism would be handled by police forces like the "Federation Security" that is occasional seen, so that isn't an issue.

These needs might mean they require a few ground troops and analysts and such things, but if we continue to follow the US template, much of that work would be done by policing agencies (FBI) and intelligence agencies (CIA), whose numbers I didn't include in the 0.9% of the population figure. Still, let's say that half their military forces are ground pounders, just for the heck of it.

0.009*1 trillion = 9 billion troops/2 = 4.5 billion non-ground troops.

(According to Wikipedia) DS9 (as an example) had a permanent population of only 300 people (and several thousand guests at any given time). Apparently that is a pretty decent number for federation bases starbases, as numerous times on the series we hear numbers like "there were 57 people on that station when it blew itself to smithereens even though space stations wouldn't do that in real life!" and other similar figures.

Still, I'm going to up that and say that every single base and starship in the Federation has 1000 people, even though we know this isn't the case, and that the real 'average crew per base/ship' number is far lower.

4.5 billion/1000 people per base/ship = 4.5 millions bases and ships.

In the serieses they numbers their starbases sequentially. AFAIK it never states a number above 4000, and most of the numbers are things like "starbase 53" or "deep space 3" or "K9". Still, lets go safe here and say that 95% of those 4.5 billion people are working on space stations.

4.5 million bases/ships * 0.05 (5% of people working on ships) = 225,000 ships, each with 1000 people on board.

The numbers we were given in TOS and TNG indicated that there around 400 active starships. In DS9 this number jumped to at least 3000. Regardless, 3000 ships is a far cry from the AT LEAST 225000 that they should have, given their population and their level of economic activity.

And this is the Federation we’re talking about here. Like the USA, they are more inclined to spend their resources on infrastructure and Healthcare (the latter of which eats up a surprisingly large percentage of both National and State budgets in the US). What about a warlike civilization like the Romulans, or the Cardiasians or the Klingons. All three of them seem inclined to spend every last penny on military expenditures. Why do they have militaries that are the same size as those in the Federation?

On B5 I could forgive them because each civilization had 1 planet, and maybe, maybe, a few tiny colonies. But basically one major planet. Yet they still had more ships than the entire freaking Federation, with at least 100 planets, and hundreds, if not thousands, of major and minor colony worlds.

This little rant ended up being way longer than I intended it to be.

[gopher65]

If you're looking for it in Babylon 5 (and to a lesser degree Star Trek), the ongoing behind-the-scenes argument gets kind of comical: In some episodes a ship is taken out by disabling its propulsion and weapons. (And there are lifepods.) In others we see fires (e.g. B5's "Severed Dreams"). And in others there are the cliche big explosions and debris clouds.

An offshoot of the "Explosions! We need explosions! Explosions! Whee!" school of entertainment is that everything is equipped with a self-destruct device. Oh my, my unarmed merchant ship is being overrun by pirates. I know, I'll set the self-destruct and blow it up and kill all the pirates! Bwahahaha! --Absolute nonsense. And if people can't figure out five or ten reasons why blowing a ship or building to smithereens is stupid, I despair for them.
Yeah I always found this pretty stupid:). I like how B5 did things in "Severed Dreams" and to a lesser extent in "Point of no Return" (I think that is the episode I mean). Ships should be disabled, and maybe catch on fire; if they have oxygen atmospheres a fire would be very dangerous. But explode? Where does that come from? Even if they have dangerous reactors you'd think that they'd put into effect some type of safety precautions. The reason being is that allied ships are likely to be much closer to you than enemy ships. If your ship goes boom during a fleet battle, especially the stupidly pointblank short-range battles they have on Star Trek and Star Wars, you do a lot of damage to your side, and little or nothing to the other guys.


Think of how many civilian freighters a civ like the federation must have.
Not sure what this has to do with the issue.
I mentioned this because of what you said earlier. When you are in a war, especially a war with few military vessels, you go after the *support* ships, not the heavily armed behemoths. If you do your job correctly you will cripple your enemy without ever being in danger yourself. So if, say, the Cardassians really wanted to cripple the Federation they'd go after their civilian supply ships and hope to hit hard and fast enough to stop the Federation dead in its tracks. It just makes sense. In real wars this is what happens.

Given how big the Federation is, they must have to have a ginormous number of freighters hauling stuff around all the time. Each of those freighters has a giant bullseye painted on it, and must be protected by military ships. So the Federation has to have at least enough starships to protect its shipping lanes from both external threats and pirates, thieves, and terrorists (though these last 3 would more likely be police ships, not military).

The Federation is also spread out, and it doesn't exactly have fast ships (at least not compared to B5 or Starwars). This means that in order to protect their shipping lanes they'd need to have ships on patrol along every major route all the time since they are too slow to just dispatch from the nearest base at the first sign of trouble. This greatly ups the number of required military (or at least armed police) ships they'd need to protect themselves.

[EarthandBeyond]

Yeah I always found this pretty stupid:). I like how B5 did things in "Severed Dreams" and to a lesser extent in "Point of no Return" (I think that is the episode I mean). Ships should be disabled, and maybe catch on fire; if they have oxygen atmospheres a fire would be very dangerous. But explode? Where does that come from? Even if they have dangerous reactors you'd think that they'd put into effect some type of safety precautions. The reason being is that allied ships are likely to be much closer to you than enemy ships. If your ship goes boom during a fleet battle, especially the stupidly pointblank short-range battles they have on Star Trek and Star Wars, you do a lot of damage to your side, and little or nothing to the other guys.


Big ship. Big reactor. Lots of unstable particals. = Big Boom!
Yes, that how things hapen in real life.
Remember B5 isnt a Stargate univers, with there pocket reactors that can power up the entire Atlantis city.
B5 is a real life simmulation of a possibel future.