Sam Carter/Amanda Tapping Discussion/Appreciation

[Coley]

Chopingal - thanks for the response re my idiom post - LOL!! - Back at'cha right!!

[Coley]

Hey Astrogeologist!

Wow! Blue Jello!! Jumping up and down - with pooch joining in!
Many thanks - and for the comments on the idioms!!

Red Balloons - I think you can leave the red out, but I never do. A sign of impending trouble!
In WW1 observation balloons would be sent into the sky at the first suspicion of an enemy attack.
In WW2 strong barrage balloons would be put up around cities attached to steel cable to impede enemy aircraft

Hence in both cases a warning of attack - thus trouble when "the balloons go up". Some people add the red - another sign for danger.

Carry the can - take responsibility - in the strict sense reluctantly - but many people now use it generally.
During 19th C explosive was used in coal and tin mines and one person had the unenviable task of carrying a can of explosives to the face each day - hence reluctance to carry the can

Brass Monkeys - a paraphrase of "freeze the balls off a brass monkey". In the 18th C Brass Monkey was the name given to the brass trays with cannonball size indentations that would form the base of a cannonball pyramid. Brass contracts faster in the cold than iron (which the cannonballs were made out of). On very cold days the indentations would contract so much that they couldn't hold the cannonballs and they would spill out onto the deck.

I know what the meanings are, but I was lucky that you picked on a few I know the source of!

[ChopinGal]

IF I'm remembering right, the 'babe' line wasn't when they were first auditioning together on stage. I 'think' it was in one of their first eps they'd filmed together, and Rick turned to Amanda and asked her how this or that was and then called her Babe. After she replied about calling him 'Dick' *snicker*, I believe he laughed. I think she said that's when she knew he would be cool to work with.

Sally

Hi Sally I still think it happened when she was reading for the part onstage and they first met. Anyone here can help us out? When did RDA first call AT "Babe" and she fired right back at him with "Dick"?!

Trivia, trivia ....

[Coley]

I've just picked up on the posts re Sam and the Huggable Hammond. I agree wholehartedly. There is a lovely warmth between them. I'm really gutted he won't me in season 9 (I assume)
So out of Sam, Jack, Daniel, Teal'c, Janet, Hammond - only Daniel and Teal'c will be there in season 9 - until Sam comes back. Sob!!
I'm not looking forward to the first 5 eps - 5 eps without Sam!!! Comforting to know its for a very happy reason for AT I must add quickly!!

[Coley]

Skydiver - thanks for the season 2 poll and putting up the season 3!

Astogeologist - wonderful captures - as always - thanks!!

[ChopinGal]

Hey Astrogeologist!

Wow! Blue Jello!! Jumping up and down - with pooch joining in!
Many thanks - and for the comments on the idioms!!

Red Balloons - I think you can leave the red out, but I never do. A sign of impending trouble!
In WW1 observation balloons would be sent into the sky at the first suspicion of an enemy attack.
In WW2 strong barrage balloons would be put up around cities attached to steel cable to impede enemy aircraft

Hence in both cases a warning of attack - thus trouble when "the balloons go up". Some people add the red - another sign for danger.

Carry the can - take responsibility - in the strict sense reluctantly - but many people now use it generally.
During 19th C explosive was used in coal and tin mines and one person had the unenviable task of carrying a can of explosives to the face each day - hence reluctance to carry the can

Brass Monkeys - a paraphrase of "freeze the balls off a brass monkey". In the 18th C Brass Monkey was the name given to the brass trays with cannonball size indentations that would form the base of a cannonball pyramid. Brass contracts faster in the cold than iron (which the cannonballs were made out of). On very cold days the indentations would contract so much that they couldn't hold the cannonballs and they would spill out onto the deck.

I know what the meanings are, but I was lucky that you picked on a few I know the source of!

This is marvelous! What a great articulation of British idioms for us Yankees across the pond. I just may throw a couple of these out in conversation at the office and see what happens!

Do you realize what a classy thread this is?!

We've got accountants, and military, and teachers, and counselors, and geologists, and fanfic writers ... okay, okay, sorry for blowing a horn ... but all of us write such in-depth posts and I've learned so much from all here and just want to say: THANK YOU! It's like having some really neat and diverse people coming into my living room for a chat on "the meaning of life". Eek excuse the hyperbole, but you get my drift ....

Sure, Sam Carter is our focal point, but the issues she confronts in the stories often are universal in nature and seem to carry over into our own lives. So, as we share here, we seem to be learning more about ourselves too. And, frankly, from what I've been reading, I think there are a lot of "Sam Carters" out there. Let's hear it for the ladies - who are often trying hard to be themselves in a world of men!

[Tok'Ra Hostess]

teal'c did the same thing in demons, ignored sam and did whatever he wanted to do

... <blink> ... Drawing a blank. Care to color that in for me?


[/QUOTE]I think this explains a lot of jack's perceived rude cutting off of sam. she's still used to having to prove that she's right and knows what she's talking about while jack has gotten to the point that he doesn't need explanations, he just needs to know what she needs[/QUOTE]


I loved that little scene between Jack and Sam in Threads when

Spoiler:

Jack said to start the cself-destruct and Sam started to explain that it wouldn't help and Jack explodes, "Carter!" then immediately contrite, he say gently, "Carter." It signaled, to me, the start of their new working relationship; the awkwardness they'll have at first now that they've openly declared their feelings for each other - well, as openly as these two emotional clutzes ever do

how do you think she would have handled it? I think, and this is trying to go with how I think Sam's written; I think she might have said, "Gentlemen, Colonel O'Neill is unavailable at this time. *I*, on the other hand, am available, so I'm it." I could see her giving them the 'continue to question me and I'll write you up' look.

What do you guys think would have happened if MiniJack wouldn't have arrived?
Sally

Yes, I think that the threat factor must be rather high for women in officer territory. That is, they find themselves resorting to reminding junior officers that they have the ranking authority to hurt them. But that's not respect.

"Hey, junior officer, listen to my words, not the softness of my voice. And, eyes on my shoulders, please. My rank insignia isn't pinned to my skirt."

The thing is, the flyboys perked up and got serious when little Jack came into the room because, obviously these guys had heard stories about Jack's exploits. Now, while I agree wholeheartedly that Jack deserved their respect, here is yet another point: How many of Sam's exploits are tossed about and discussed by your average flyboy? How many of them dream about having the chance to serve under her command - without making the mandatory sexual jokes?

How many woman officers garner that kind of respect?

So, while I absolutely hate that scene in FB, I am willing to cut the PTB a little slack; I can't fault them for showing us what it may actually be like for some female officers, even after years of exceptional service. "/

[ChopinGal]

...

Yes, I think that the threat factor must be rather high for women in officer territory. That is, they find themselves resorting to reminding junior officers that they have the ranking authority to hurt them. But that's not respect.

"Hey, junior officer, listen to my words, not the softness of my voice. And, eyes on my shoulders, please. My rank insignia isn't pinned to my skirt."

The thing is, the flyboys perked up and got serious when little Jack came into the room because, obviously these guys had heard stories about Jack's exploits. Now, while I agree wholeheartedly that Jack deserved their respect, here is yet another point: How many of Sam's exploits are tossed about and discussed by your average flyboy? How many of them dream about having the chance to serve under her command - without making the mandatory sexual jokes?

How many woman officers garner that kind of respect?

So, while I absolutely hate that scene in FB, I am willing to cut the PTB a little slack; I can't fault them for showing us what it may actually be like for some female officers, even after years of exceptional service. "/

You just reframed that whole scene and made me see it from a different angle ... wow! Sure, it could be that the male writers were actually thinking about how a woman officer probably would be treated by a group of young male upstarts ... although, as Astro has said somewhere already ... I don't think that was the writers' original intent when they did the scene. But, we can be broadminded about it (ooh, broadminded may not be the best of words - sorry for the lame pun!) and give them the benefit of the doubt.

[ChopinGal]

I wasn't that bothered by that scene until I read so many others being so. I didn't really see them dissing Sam, just questioning why a 'the' pilot wasn't giving them the lowdown on the plane. I do see what ppl are saying, though, but I thought Sam was handling it well enough by not making a big deal of it. But let's say that MiniJack didn't come into the picture right then, and Sam had to continue the lecture AND the comments from the pilots... how do you think she would have handled it? I think, and this is trying to go with how I think Sam's written; I think she might have said, "Gentlemen, Colonel O'Neill is unavailable at this time. *I*, on the other hand, am available, so I'm it." I could see her giving them the 'continue to question me and I'll write you up' look.

What do you guys think would have happened if MiniJack wouldn't have arrived?

Sally

If young Jack didn't make his appearance, I think Sam would have handled it very professionally by fixing them with a strong stare and waiting a few moments until they got the picture and some sense of order restored. Silence (when lecturing from a podium) often works wonders ... along with that "I'll write you up" look ... she could easily pull rank by not even speaking to the issue. And then I could picture her diving right into the lecture.

Anytime TPTB could play up Sam's "grace under pressure", they should - because there have been too many scenes lately (S7 and S8) where she's been written as unsure or overly angsty. I'd like to see some balance restored to Sam as a professional military woman.

[ChopinGal]

... I know a lot of women probably don't feel like this, but I feel like I've always had to try harder, struggle more, to gain equal respect as boys around me. And I've tried to do that, I admit, by 'just doing' things, and letting people see that I can do them, rather than trying to argue that I can do them.

On the other hand, I know personally in myself that there are a lot of things that I couldn't do 'as well as guys can', and that sometimes pisses me off, other times I just say hey, you're female, live with it and enjoy it.

I think that "trying harder" to prove yourself as a woman is more common than you think. And "actions do speak louder than words" many times. Remember what happened this week: the woman sailor from England just broke the record for sailing solo around the world! Sure, that was a heroic, newsworthy effort. But, keep in mind, that each day we are all capable of many small victories in our own lives.

I think that's why Sam Carter resonates for many of us. We can see ourselves in her wins and losses. So, while we're rooting for an imaginary hero onscreen, we're also rooting for ourselves.

[ChopinGal]

... I agree wholeheartedly with your comments and observations about ... "fitting in as one of the guys". As I was growing up, I loved sports and thought dresses were silly (harder to play all sorts of sports in them), so folks wanted to categorize me as a tomboy and I always bristled against the stereotyping - even as a kid it bugged me that they wanted to 'put me in a box'. My parents never made a big deal about what was 'for girls' and what was 'for boys' - it was just basically a non-issue... (but maybe that's because they had 2 girls and my dad had to have someone to play ball with ). At any rate, I didn't want to be labelled a tomboy... or a girly-girl... I wanted to do what was fun and seemed right at the time... play ball one day... and maybe wear a dress the next day if I felt like it. Cut my hair short if I felt like it... and maybe wear that pink fluffy shirt if I wanted to... or not wear it if I didn't want to! In addition to sports, I loved chess and science and could never get enough to read, so I think they ultimately gave up with the attempted stereotypes. Most of my family just sees me as me... well, there is Grandma... who's always muttering about getting me into a dress, but I cut her some slack - she *is* 95!

So, I haven't had a problem with Sam's changing wardrobe - and I actually think it's pretty cool. I also love seeing scientist Sam, soldier Sam, adrenaline junkie Sam, etc. People are multi-faceted, and hopefully, we grow more so as we grow older (would hate to think we do the opposite).

Unfortunately, there are always lots of folks around trying to 'stick us in those confining stereotype boxes' and I think that some of the early series writing just assumed that any woman in the military must be a tomboy-ball-buster who was chomping at the bit to prove that men and women can be equal. I like AT's approach better... don't argue about it... just do it - show the competence and equality without debate... and make it a 'done deal'!

Before joining this thread, Hathor was for me in a list of episodes and scenes that included Emancipation and the briefing room scene in COTG... where the issue of a woman on the team, or women in the military, was presented combatively (or antagonistically).

I much prefer AT's approach of asking them to just write Carter as a soldier (or, I think she also suggested that they write as if they were writing for Daniel) and then just let her play the role and the fact that AT is a woman was all that would be necessary on the gender 'issue'.

As Skydiver and others have previously commented, the series writing has been at times uneven... with some good attributes and lines and then some that are jarring or seem a bit out-of-character... the comments and postings on this thread are helping me focus in on, and enjoy, the wonderful moments and scenes (and there sure are a lot of them) and to not allow the not-so-positive aspects/scenes to take over my feelings and evaluations of the show.

Many thanks to all of you!
.
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And many thanks to you, Astro, for these great, right-on-the-money replies! You often manage to get to the heart of the matter and say what I'm still trying to put into words.

More balanced scripts, less stereotyping, focus on the positives, not negatives ... all of these factors are important. AT wants parity for Sam too and I think that's why she really enjoyed filming Death Knell which gave her the chance to be a soldier under fire and going through what any other soldier would have experienced.

I also love seeing the many facets of Sam as she grows older. One of the more poignant, for me, is the physical change in Sam. Look at her face in the early seasons, especially the closeups with Martouf in Tok'ra Pt 1, and now look at some of her moments in S7 and S8. There is a maturity and new kind of beauty. As a woman, she seems to be aging gracefully. Sam is growing into the refined beauty of women in their late 30s and 40s. I love seeing her changing face as much as her changing wardrobe!

On the other hand, we see Jack primarily growing older by his obviously graying hair and a few more wrinkles on his craggy face; Daniel and Teal'c seem to be growing in muscle mass only.

Thanks, especially, for sharing your own story which I loved ... and God bless Grandma at the feisty age of 95! I bet she has many stories of growing up female to tell.

[NearlyCircular]

Over 1000 posts and still going strong and staying positive. You've got to love this thread! Should we have cake? Better yet, blue jello all around.

Coley - thanks for the explanation of the idioms! This thread is not only fun, it's educational!

Anytime TPTB could play up Sam's "grace under pressure", they should - because there have been too many scenes lately (S7 and S8) where she's been written as unsure or overly angsty. I'd like to see some balance restored to Sam as a professional military woman.

I think that's why Sam Carter resonates for many of us. We can see ourselves in her wins and losses. So, while we're rooting for an imaginary hero onscreen, we're also rooting for ourselves.

Great posts, ChopinGal!

NC

[jckfan55]

On the other hand, we see Jack primarily growing older by his obviously graying hair and a few more wrinkles on his craggy face; Daniel and Teal'c seem to be growing in muscle mass only.

Good one!

[NearlyCircular]

Sam's[/I] exploits are tossed about and discussed by your average flyboy? How many of them dream about having the chance to serve under her command - without making the mandatory sexual jokes?

How many woman officers garner that kind of respect?

So, while I absolutely hate that scene in FB, I am willing to cut the PTB a little slack; I can't fault them for showing us what it may actually be like for some female officers, even after years of exceptional service. "/

You're right, and it's actually surprising that they showed even that much. Since they are presenting a somewhat idealized view of the Air Force, purposely showing gender discrimination probably isn't on the agenda. But as others have said, I don't know if they even realized they were doing it. It was just an easy way to show that mini Jack was still "the man". I've heard that pilots are notorious hot dogs, so the portrayal of their attitude was most likely accurate. But mouthing off to a superior officer, female or not, isn't a good idea, is it? (unless you're Jack O'Neill )

It would be nice if we saw more of how Sam and others deal with these issues, but, of course, if it's anything that doesn't relate to actually going through the gate, or dealing with aliens, it will make some of the fans unhappy. Heaven forbid we should see character development just for its own sake in a scifi show.

NC

[jckfan55]

Re: the Fragile Balance flyboy scene...when I saw that, I always imagined one of two followup scenes: one is simply later during the same briefing when one of the pilots asks a dumb question, the other is during an actual combat flight training, where one of them makes a stupid mistake and gets taken "out," and O'Neill says "See, if you'd been paying attention during Major Carter's 302 tech briefing, you wouldn't look like such an idiot right now."

What a good idea!

On the good side though, we do have that REALLY fab scene in "The Warrior" where O'Neill asks Carter to demonstrate the P90. I ADORE that scene. It's one of my favorite Carter scenes, 'cause it shows her kicking trash and O'Neill basking in admiration. You could interpret it as just a CO being proud of an exceptional officer under his command

That's my interpretation, as an anti-shipper

.... but I'm pretty sure it's still back in season 1, I get the feeling that he gets to that same level of trust with Sam, not only as a technical expert, but also as a warrior. It's not even an issue for him, and I think that speaks well of O'Neill as a man as well as a CO.

I agree.