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    i'll take the high octane jello please

    and major sam, i'm very envious of you. i'm, well i'm just a nobody that no one notices so i'm sorta doomed to always be just a face in the crowd when it comes to the cons
    Where in the World is George Hammond?


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      Originally posted by majorsal
      Sam bashing started loooong before season 7. Or season 6. Or season... it was even happening before season 4's Divide and Conquer. Sam simply got in the way of what some others wanted to happen for other characters or other storylines.
      Hmmm... I'd wondered about when 'it started'... I didn't start watching Stargate until last year - then I got the DVDs and watched the older seasons... and I didn't check out the forum here until this past December (although I did register with Gateworld in August).

      At any rate, you stated one thing I'd begun suspecting: "Sam simply got in the way of what some others wanted to happen for other characters or other storylines." And that reason for Sam-bashing just makes me sad. I really like the *team* oriented feeling that I got from the earlier seasons... the major events and heroics seemed to be fairly evenly distributed between the members of the team throughout each season (although I do think Teal'c got a bit short-staffed in the beginning, I think they are making up for that in the later seasons). For the first three seasons, each of our top three Carter episodes (from our thread polls) were also highly praised by the general fan base, so I wouldn't have thought that Sam-bashing was an 'issue' that early.

      For seasons 7 & 8, I can understand (although I certainly do *not* agree with) the disgruntlement with Sam's character from the ship, anti-ship and no-ship camps. For seasons 7&8, I just wish that Sam's personal storylines had been written differently - so that the storylines pulled in as many of the diverse fan groups - instead of polarizing them. And during the Sam/Pete saga, almost everyone seemed pissed... shippers, anti-shippers, no-shippers (generals?)... and it *created* Sam/Pete shippers - who were going to be acidicaly angry if/when Sam left Pete... of course, they could have killed him off, but that would have reinforced that hideous Black Widow idea (which I didn't agree with).

      At any rate, what I'm trying to say is that I think the writing of Sam's personal storylines for Seasons 7&8 served to polarize the Stargate fans even more than they had been before - and most of the anger and frustration was taken out on Sam... so I was disappointed with the writing and presentation of Sam's personal life these past two seasons. I *wanted* to see more of her personal life (and that of the other characters) - but I didn't want such storylines and scenes to detract from the main scifi of each episode. The writers have a very difficult challenge when it comes to trying to please such a diverse fan base with opposing desires and objectives... but the way that they wrote Sam in a couple of episodes in Seasons 7&8 actually made the division between fan-groups wider and more angry. And I think that could have been avoided.

      .
      As TokraHostess pointed out awhile back...this is my Sunday-morning quarterbacking..
      .


      Both Ascension and 2010 have been cited earlier in this thread as good episodes that incorporated looks into the personal sides of the characters (in particular, Sam's) into the major scifi plotline. I went over and checked the Gateworld general-fan-base polls for those episodes and they were overwhelmingly favorable! 2010 Poll (86% said Outstanding/Good Show) and Ascension Poll (88% said Outstanding/Good Show) and I think it's fantastic to have the general fan base with such overwhelming praise for Sam-centered episodes.

      As we have discussed and pointed out on this thread, however, there have been other wonderful aspects of Seasons 7&8... wonderful opportunities for AT to stretch and show her acting talents.
      .
      Last edited by astrogeologist; 27 February 2005, 11:15 AM.

      Comment


        Originally posted by majorsal
        oh, man, this season five poll is the hardest for me yet!
        Great comments Sally! I archived them and added them to the Season 5 summary list!
        .

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          divide and conquer was really teh eps that polarized folks. i know because i was around when it aired.

          for those that didn't like the sam/jack angle...well jack's simple 'i care for her more than i'm supposed to' was a confirmation of that relationship and 'proof' that it existed.

          for those that liked the sam/jack angle....it was confirmation for them that the relationship was real and they weren't shy about shouting it from the roof tops

          thier joy just served to antagonize the anti's, some of which see/saw sam as a threat to what they interpreted as the sigular and main relationship of the show...which is what was carried over from the movie, the jack/daniel friendship (and there are some anti's out there that see/interpret jack and daniel being more than friends)

          there are also some fans out there that believe that jack was destined to reunite with sara, so saw the sam/jack angle as a threat to that relationship

          since many of the anti-s&j folks also seem to prefer jack in a different relationship, be it with daniel or sara (there might be a few jack/janet fans, but not many) since they already like jack in another relationship, then it's easy to criticize sam since she's the usurper and 'other person'

          There are lots of people out there that prefer one character or pairing over another. it's just natural. however, other than Jonas, sam is the one character who just gets bashed to pieces. I have seen some horrible crit lately against Jack, however it's nowhere near as 'bad' as what i've seen directed towards sam
          Where in the World is George Hammond?


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            Originally posted by Skydiver
            divide and conquer was really teh eps that polarized folks. i know because i was around when it aired.

            for those that didn't like the sam/jack angle...well jack's simple 'i care for her more than i'm supposed to' was a confirmation of that relationship and 'proof' that it existed.

            for those that liked the sam/jack angle....it was confirmation for them that the relationship was real and they weren't shy about shouting it from the roof tops

            thier joy just served to antagonize the anti's, some of which see/saw sam as a threat to what they interpreted as the sigular and main relationship of the show...which is what was carried over from the movie, the jack/daniel friendship (and there are some anti's out there that see/interpret jack and daniel being more than friends)

            there are also some fans out there that believe that jack was destined to reunite with sara, so saw the sam/jack angle as a threat to that relationship

            since many of the anti-s&j folks also seem to prefer jack in a different relationship, be it with daniel or sara (there might be a few jack/janet fans, but not many) since they already like jack in another relationship, then it's easy to criticize sam since she's the usurper and 'other person'

            There are lots of people out there that prefer one character or pairing over another. it's just natural. however, other than Jonas, sam is the one character who just gets bashed to pieces. I have seen some horrible crit lately against Jack, however it's nowhere near as 'bad' as what i've seen directed towards sam
            Wonderfully and thoughtfully stated Skydiver!.. and the GW poll for Divide and Conquer bears out what you said - the fans were divisively polarized between either 'Outstanding' or 'A real stinker' (with very few in the middle)... and I suppose it's a no-brainer as to which fans voted which way.
            .

            Comment


              Originally posted by Skydiver

              ... I'll take the high octane jello please

              and major sam, i'm very envious of you. i'm, well i'm just a nobody that no one notices so i'm sorta doomed to always be just a face in the crowd when it comes to the cons
              Not to worry ... when we meet at GABIT, I will feed you *lots* of high-octane blue jello ... after that, I promise you'll be noticed!

              I would never think of you as just a face in the crowd because you have already stood out from the crowd by your amazing SG1 fanfic. I have been reading your Carterfic all week - remembering some of the stories but not knowing at the time I first read them who you were. If others on this thread have not read fanfic by "Denise" at Emerald City, you are really missing some good Sam and team-oriented stories by an "award-winning author"!

              And the way you write Teal'c, and Teal'c and Sam is excellent. I wish you were that missing woman writer on the show. Some of your stories would have made great episodes. Actually, stories by Tok'ra Hostess, AstroG, MajorSam and probably a few others posting here all have moments in them when you think "wow, this would have made a terrific episode!" I sincerely apologize if I've left someone out.

              I believe that AstroG has links to the above writers at her own Sam Carter website - our Keeper of the Flame is one terrific archivist - manages to store everything - one-stop shopping!

              AstroG, if you haven't done it recently, please redirect us to your main link!

              Thanks!
              Last edited by ChopinGal; 27 February 2005, 10:37 AM.

              Comment


                Originally posted by astrogeologist
                Wonderfully and thoughtfully stated Skydiver!.. and the GW poll for Divide and Conquer bears out what you said - the fans were divisively polarized between either 'Outstanding' or 'A real stinker' (with very few in the middle)... and I suppose it's a no-brainer as to which fans voted which way.
                .

                yep. now generally speaking and i'm not trying to classify or pick on anyone, but the anti's seemed to see d&c as a betrayal. since the ship was now canon and real, the excuse of 'the shippers are just projecting' was now moot because to quote the shippers 'we ain't projecting, we're right' became thier motto

                the more the anti's got upset, the more the shippers crowed and it became an escalating 'war' over who was right and who was wrong. for each new eps, the anti's would dissect it, looking for proof that d&c was an oddity and not real or applicable anymore while the shippers would dissect each eps for further proof that d&c was just the beginning and each new sign of ship was just more confirmation

                that division only grew two years later when MS announced that he was leaving the show. again generally speaking, the anti shippers also tended to be fans of MS and took his departure rather hard. many of the s&j crowd didn't care as much. and both sides weren't shy about speaking thier minds

                there are divisions in this fandom that will never be healed, and,among many, Sam has gotten caught in the cross fire
                Where in the World is George Hammond?


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                  Originally posted by ChopinGal
                  Not to worry ... when we meet at GABIT, I will feed you *lots* of high-octane blue jello ... after that, I promise we'll be noticed!
                  LOL

                  sounds like fun
                  Where in the World is George Hammond?


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                    Originally posted by Skydiver
                    There are lots of people out there that prefer one character or pairing over another. it's just natural. however, other than Jonas, sam is the one character who just gets bashed to pieces. I have seen some horrible crit lately against Jack, however it's nowhere near as 'bad' as what i've seen directed towards sam
                    In some cases, it seems that complaints come from the fans who are so enamored with one character that they seem to resent any other character getting the spotlight for more than just a few minutes per episode. So in the last few seasons which have been "Jack light" we've had more screen time for Sam, which makes those of us on this thread happy, but has led to an escalation in complaints from those fans who think it should be the Jack show or the Daniel show or the Jack and Daniel show. (I'd love to say those fans who think it should be the Teal'c show, but sadly, Teal'c tends to be neglected as much as Sam is bashed.) I'd like to believe that this thread of avowed Sam fans appreciate all the other characters and don't begrudge their story arcs.

                    Another main gripe seems to be the general lack of "team" episodes the last 2 years, and again, since there have been portions of some episodes that delved into Sam's personal life, she became an easy target for blame. So you read questions like "Why were they wasting half an episode on Pete when they could have been off exploring new planets and blowing things up?"

                    NC

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by Skydiver
                      divide and conquer was really teh eps that polarized folks. i know because i was around when it aired.

                      for those that didn't like the sam/jack angle...well jack's simple 'i care for her more than i'm supposed to' was a confirmation of that relationship and 'proof' that it existed.

                      for those that liked the sam/jack angle....it was confirmation for them that the relationship was real and they weren't shy about shouting it from the roof tops

                      thier joy just served to antagonize the anti's, some of which see/saw sam as a threat to what they interpreted as the sigular and main relationship of the show...which is what was carried over from the movie, the jack/daniel friendship (and there are some anti's out there that see/interpret jack and daniel being more than friends)

                      there are also some fans out there that believe that jack was destined to reunite with sara, so saw the sam/jack angle as a threat to that relationship

                      since many of the anti-s&j folks also seem to prefer jack in a different relationship, be it with daniel or sara (there might be a few jack/janet fans, but not many) since they already like jack in another relationship, then it's easy to criticize sam since she's the usurper and 'other person'

                      There are lots of people out there that prefer one character or pairing over another. it's just natural. however, other than Jonas, sam is the one character who just gets bashed to pieces. I have seen some horrible crit lately against Jack, however it's nowhere near as 'bad' as what i've seen directed towards sam
                      Sky, I've been trying to rep you but, alas, no green jello today! You'll have to keep going for that high-octane blue stuff, which AstroG will probably serve up because of this post.

                      This was a great post and helped clarify some of the many shippy angles for me.

                      I, like AstroG, discovered the show in S6 and then went and bought all the prior DVD sets to really find out what was going on. But I don't have the history that you do of experiencing the craziness and divisions that popped up after different groups started to interpret this and that. It's a shame that had to happen, but it also shows how this show seemed to grab a very large audience from the beginning and how invested the fans are in the show. Now we're coming up to a record-breaking S9, and the fans seem to be just as involved. (One example: Look at us on this thread!) I have two questions:

                      1) Why do you think the fans became so hooked with Sam, Jack, T, and Daniel?

                      2) Do you think this is just a Stargate phenomenon? Do fans of other TV series get just as emotional and vocal about the stars and the pairings? I don't watch much TV, so don't know ....

                      I know you are a mod, and hope I can allow us to toss this around on Sam's thread rather than putting it out there to the wider fan base. If you feel we have to move it, please tell me how to start a new thread (as she cringes and prays that she won't have to ...)

                      Thanks again for the education: Ship 101

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by ChopinGal
                        I would never think of you as just a face in the crowd because you have already stood out from the crowd by your amazing SG1 fanfic. I have been reading your Carterfic all week - remembering some of the stories but not knowing at the time I first read them who you were. If others on this thread have not read fanfic by "Denise" at Emerald City, you are really missing some good Sam and team-oriented stories by an "award-winning author"!

                        And the way you write Teal'c, and Teal'c and Sam is excellent. I wish you were that missing woman writer on the show. Some of your stories would have made great episodes. Actually, stories by Tok'ra Hostess, AstroG, MajorSam and probably a few others posting here all have moments in them when you think "wow, this would have made a terrific episode!" I sincerely apologize if I've left someone out.
                        I want to echo the praise that you're giving Skydiver for her stories. When I started reading fan fiction a couple of years ago and was searching for some good Sam Carter focused stories, Denise's stood out. Award winning author is right! One of the places I've found some great fan fiction is one I'm sure most of you know, The Stargate Fan Awards, and Denise has won numerous times there. Anyway, thanks, Sky, for hours of entertainment.

                        I don't want to neglect the other writers mentioned above, and include yourself, CG. You're all enormously talented and all I can say is, please can we have more?

                        NC

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by ChopinGal
                          Not to worry ... when we meet at GABIT, I will feed you *lots* of high-octane blue jello ... after that, I promise you'll be noticed!
                          ..LOL... I have this image of three very snockered women with blue tongues and orange T-shirts (ChopinGal, Coley and Skydiver) offering AT some 'innocent-looking' blue jello... hmmm...
                          Originally posted by ChopinGal
                          I would never think of you as just a face in the crowd because you have already stood out from the crowd by your amazing SG1 fanfic. I have been reading your Carterfic all week - remembering some of the stories but not knowing at the time I first read them who you were. If others on this thread have not read fanfic by "Denise" at Emerald City, you are really missing some good Sam and team-oriented stories by an "award-winning author"!

                          And the way you write Teal'c, and Teal'c and Sam is excellent. I wish you were that missing woman writer on the show. Some of your stories would have made great episodes.
                          Originally posted by NearlyCircular
                          I want to echo the praise that you're giving Skydiver for her stories. When I started reading fan fiction a couple of years ago and was searching for some good Sam Carter focused stories, Denise's stood out. Award winning author is right! One of the places I've found some great fan fiction is one I'm sure most of you know, The Stargate Fan Awards, and Denise has won numerous times there. Anyway, thanks, Sky, for hours of entertainment.
                          Second and third that motion!
                          Everytime I see a new fic by Denise, I really know I've got some great reading ahead.
                          Ricochet is one of Denise's fics that I highly recommend for all who like a little Sam-whumping... and stoic Sam... I really liked the premise. Denise has hundreds of other fantastic stories, but that one stands out for me, and I've read it several times.
                          Last edited by astrogeologist; 27 February 2005, 12:36 PM.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by ChopinGal
                            AstroG, if you haven't done it recently, please redirect us to your main link!
                            Carter Directory Page - I have all of the screen cap photo panels, with links to the thread postings that include explanation and/or dialogue. I also have links to some Carter music videos and some good Carterfic (this list is nowhere near complete -- I have a list in-progress on my computer, but I haven't finished it).

                            Note: Photobucket.com (where I have my pictures stored) is apparently having some server slow-down problems right now... hopefully, these problems will be corrected soon. Ahh... just checked and got this message: "Some albums currently unavailable for 1 hour while a disk rebuilds. Sorry for any inconveniences. The Photobucket Team"

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                              But I don't have the history that you do of experiencing the craziness and divisions that popped up after different groups started to interpret this and that. It's a shame that had to happen, but it also shows how this show seemed to grab a very large audience from the beginning and how invested the fans are in the show.

                              _ you guys are very lucky that you weren't here. things were rather icky for a period of time. some of that rancor still exists, and i'm just a guilty of it as others are. I know there are people that i once interacted with that i don't anymore simply because of things that were said and done.



                              Now we're coming up to a record-breaking S9, and the fans seem to be just as involved. (One example: Look at us on this thread!) I have two questions:

                              1) Why do you think the fans became so hooked with Sam, Jack, T, and Daniel?


                              I can't sperak for everyone, just for me. I started watching the show back in season 1 and while i started watching it for my fix of RDA a week, i got hooked on it for Amanda adn Sam. that's why i started writing...there wasn't enough sam fic out there, what there was was shippy adn that didn't always appeal to me, so i started writing my own.

                              I do think part of the draw for SG1 as a whole is because these are such amazingly normal characters. yes, they have thier own set of super powers, jack and the ancient gene, sam and jolinar, daniel and the ancients, tea'c and the jaffa, but at the end of they day, they are normal. the show doesn't take place on some super spiffy space ship that's clean and sterile and flying through some utopia....it takes place in the here and now. it's set in our world and they deal with things just like we do.
                              they have to clean house, pay the bills, do the laundry...etc, etc.

                              they're just normal people doing an extraordinary job

                              2) Do you think this is just a Stargate phenomenon? Do fans of other TV series get just as emotional and vocal about the stars and the pairings? I don't watch much TV, so don't know ....

                              umm, yeah. I dont' hang in the fandoms simply because i just can't handle keeping track of all of it, but i know that the Jag fandom is rife with issues, so is the Alias one, Justice League (yep, the cartoon), enterprise, etc. they're all busy and volitile fandoms that probably mirror this one in many ways

                              as to discussing this here, why not? as long as no one protests. we do just need to remember that this isn't the place to rant or voice issues with individuals. we can discuss this phenomenon as it effects Sam and her place in the show
                              Where in the World is George Hammond?


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                                Originally posted by NearlyCircular

                                ... in the last few seasons which have been "Jack light" we've had more screen time for Sam, which makes those of us on this thread happy, but has led to an escalation in complaints from those fans who think it should be the Jack show or the Daniel show or the Jack and Daniel show. (I'd love to say those fans who think it should be the Teal'c show, but sadly, Teal'c tends to be neglected as much as Sam is bashed.) I'd like to believe that this thread of avowed Sam fans appreciate all the other characters and don't begrudge their story arcs.

                                Another main gripe seems to be the general lack of "team" episodes the last 2 years, and again, since there have been portions of some episodes that delved into Sam's personal life, she became an easy target for blame. So you read questions like "Why were they wasting half an episode on Pete when they could have been off exploring new planets and blowing things up?"

                                NC
                                You've said it well, NC ... much of the unrest recently can be traced back to RDA's change in schedule. Both the writing and the demands on the cast changed a lot. I think of AT, for example, filming scenes for Grace and Death Knell and Gemini all within same week - I don't know how she did it. Frankly, all the actors need to be commended for such a grueling schedule. They really stepped up to the plate to accommodate RDA's absence. I believe he has acknowledged their efforts in some of his interviews and is grateful for their cooperation. But his change in work schedule did leave an impact. And the character of Sam Carter took the worst hit.

                                Because of the added focus on personal lives rather than the incorporation of personal development within the frame of the scifi arcs/stories (as AstroG has said so well already), the fans had Sam's love life and Teal'c's off-world shenanigans thrust in their faces. The writers had to fill pages of dialogue and action without their main lead, so they went for the gusto! What they didn't factor in was that the fans weren't looking for shock and stun as much as keeping the remaining team members engaged in what they had come to expect: going off world and fighting the enemy.

                                I think you're right; Sam coming to the forefront with a boyfriend further polarized all the groups. Sam was the lightning-rod for sure. I really felt happy for AT when I first read her own words in an interview where she seemed so excited about the new personal direction her character was taking: doing the girly-girl, getting a boyfriend who doesn't die, and showing a new side of Sam. But, as a fan, I felt uncomfortable watching the bedroom scene ... it wasn't something I wanted to see Sam do ... I felt that I was being manipulated. From the early years of UST between S and J (enjoyable and innocent) to a sudden shift to hard breathing and pillow talk with someone for whom I didn't even have a frame of reference ... it just didn't work. What ever happened to that wonderful adage: "sometimes less is more"? The show drifted from its moorings and it's taken most of S8 to get the major arcs back in place. Fortunately, that seems to be happening with these excellent episodes we're seeing now.

                                The fans have to let go and allow the reality of Jack no longer being a main player, and embrace the idea of Sam, Daniel, and Teal'c as the team they always were. See the good stuff that's there - these three actors still have a great chemistry going - eight years of familiarity, something rare in a TV show to keep a cast that long. And, yes, new faces coming in ... so be prepared to see how this works.

                                Of course, the big question for Sam fans is what will happen to Sam Carter in all this? How will she be written? We certainly know how we want her to be written: strong, resilient, confident, ready to command, content with her personal life, humorous, mature. I hope the writers don't disappoint us!

                                Ship will pretty much be a thing of the past ... so the Sam bashers will have to find another part of Sam that they don't like. I'm sure they will .... As Abraham Lincoln once said: "I have found that most people are about as happy as they make up their minds to be." It seems that some fans have hung Sam out to dry ... I doubt that her strong performances in the last part of S8 will change their perceptions. Only time will tell.
                                Last edited by ChopinGal; 27 February 2005, 12:31 PM.

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