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**Skydiver** · 25 February 2005, 08:51 AM

Originally posted by astrogeologist

Fantastic exposition, Major Sam! I too believe that most of the 'problems' started when they singled her out for continuous things they don't do with the other lead characters. If they had balanced things out and spead the personal emotional struggles and traumas out between the four main characters then we'd be looking at a totally different fan reaction to the last couple of seasons - don't know if it would be good or bad, just that it wouldn't be so focussed on Sam-bashing!
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what are the boys' emotional weaknesses?

for jack, it's kids
daniel, the damsel in distress
teal'c...umm, well his ego

it would be nice to explore some aspect of those, although we already have in some way. jack and charlie in Show and Tell, Daniel and Shyla in Need, Sarah in Summit/Last Stand
Teal'c....well there's the whole jaffa revenge thing

maybe one weakness for jack and Teal'c is something they just mentioned in passing in moeb 2

Spoiler:

i think some massive emotional angst could come from the boys if they're put into that situation. they HAVE to watch something happen. they CAN'T respond or 'fix it'

that would be huge honkin heaping helpings of angst and emotional issues for the boys

**astrogeologist** · 25 February 2005, 08:59 AM

Originally posted by ForeverSg1

I love episodes where she is kicking the snot out of someone and want to see more of them, I know for me personally I loved storylines like Ascension not for the storyline but simple because it allowed us for the first time to see Sam outside of a work environment. To see a personal side of Sam and watch her react to life without having her teams surrounding her. With the right storyline, Sam's has the potential to do some amazing things, I just hope we see that type of writing this season and not back to season 6 where Sam is just a filler.

I'm with you ForeverSG1. Ascension is a great example of an episode that interwove a great scifi plot with looks into the personal side of one of the lead characters (unlike later episodes in Seasons 7 or 8, where scenes at Sam's house and such would have been written as some sort of separate, personal-Sam storylines while Daniel would have dealt with the alien Orlin). I loved the looks into Sam's car, house, civies, etc (all very nice, btw). As has been discussed earlier in this thread, I did not like the way the rest of the team dismissed Sam when she tried to explain to them that 'an alien had followed her home'... as silly as that sounds, it surely shouldn't have been dismissed by these folks who had seen so many things more strange over the years! And, just a personal note: I really liked the scifi of when Orlin shared consciousnesses with Sam - thought it was beautifully done. Also liked the way that Sam stood strong on her own after being dismissed by the others, sent to a psych exam, and treated as she was by O'Neill (who had to go to the bathroom, but didn't ask her to wait to talk to him afterwards). On the other hand, I did like Jack and Teal'c stopping by with pizza, and the assumption that she 'had a guy' over for the evening. Go Sam!

OK, I've gone off on an Ascension critique. Back to the original topic: I think that Ascension is a good example of how to incorporate looks into the characters' personal lives by weaving it into the background and backdrop of the major scific plotline. I really don't see that they did this with Sam's personal struggles in Seasons 7 & 8.
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**astrogeologist** · 25 February 2005, 09:07 AM

Originally posted by MajorSam

Well, one last comment, Amanda has done BRILLIANT throughout all these years, handling herself with an amazing self-control. She's fiercely protective of Sam, i'm not sure I would have been able to hold out, and still bring such fantastic work if my character was doing things I reaaally didn't like.

I too, would like to extend my gratitude to AT for sticking with it - because no one else would have done it justice... I'm sure that I would have simply walked away awhile back, but AT's wonderful acting and strong yet personable presence makes the difference and keeps me hoping that the writing will become more balanced between the lead characters in future episodes. With more balance between the characters, we will hopefully see more of the competent kick-ass Colonel Carter alongside the other heroic lead characters.

Originally posted by ForeverSg1

I for one was extremely happy to see so much of Sam in seasons seven and eight. I have not always been happy in the quality of storylines that have enveloped around Sam but I would much rather see Sam try and strike out at something than have her character become an unchanging and predictable backdrop used to enhance other storylines.
I'm really hoping with a more relaxed shooting schedule in season nine that will finally get back to more team episodes where Sam can finally start showing her commanding strengths. I love episodes where she is kicking the snot out of someone and want to see more of them

With the right storyline, Sam's has the potential to do some amazing things, I just hope we see that type of writing this season and not back to season 6 where Sam is just a filler.

Originally posted by Skydiver

my season 9 fantasy would be to have sam and teal'c trapped somewhere, maybe with teal'c nicely incapicitated, and see some real bonding between the two of them. I'd love to see super warrior teal'c having to depend on a woman to cover his tushie (and what a fine tushie it is

)it may sound like a fanfic cliche, and in some ways it is, but i would love to see the two of them off on their own adventure.

Originally posted by ChopinGal

That would be a way of having Teal'c grow and evolve ... good premise. A reversal of roles would also allow Sam to take charge and be the strong warrior once again. I like your fantasy!

Great ideas - these types of storylines would allow looks into the personal sides of the characters against the backdrop of an intriguing and/or suspensful scifi setting. And I love the idea of Sam saving Teal'c and/or relying heavily on her - she's strong, has to struggle mightily, but comes through!

And Teal'c's already high opinion of her rises even more!
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**hrh36** · 25 February 2005, 09:24 AM

s
p
o
i
l
e
r
I guess in Citizen Joe, we are to believe that Jack has feelings for Sam, as Joe is interrupted as he is commenting on Jack's feeling for Sam, but this isn't completely clear, although it seemed fairly obvious.

The writers I guess seemed much more willing to sacrifice Sam's character in this story arc than Jack's. That is a bit upsetting to me. They both cannot get together as long as they are in the same unit or Sam is under Jack's command, so they could have just let the attraction ride until the end of the series when Jack could retire, if they were determined to get them together.

AHHHH. Please let's just have the wonderfully complex character of Sam ---a kick-butt science-wiz who is a competent soldier, and a compassionate human being----in season nine.

Sorry for my rambling.

Ramble on. I agree completely.

hrh

**NearlyCircular** · 25 February 2005, 09:41 AM

Originally posted by astrogeologist

I'm with you ForeverSG1. Ascension is a great example of an episode that interwove a great scifi plot with looks into the personal side of one of the lead characters (unlike later episodes in Seasons 7 or 8, where scenes at Sam's house and such would have been written as some sort of separate, personal-Sam storylines while Daniel would have dealt with the alien Orlin). ...

I think that Ascension is a good example of how to incorporate looks into the characters' personal lives by weaving it into the background and backdrop of the major scific plotline. I really don't see that they did this with Sam's personal struggles in Seasons 7 & 8.
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Yes, it's a perfect example of how the writers have always presented the guy's personal lives(except for Affinity), as part of the overall story arc, and here they did the same for Sam. Even though Sam was emotionally invested in Orlin, I never felt that she made any mistakes in judgement due to her feelings, because they showed us that she had solid reasons for her choices. I really liked Sam in that episode and sympathized with her.

You are so right in that in Seasons 7 and 8, the writers have chosen to insert little stand alone personal moments for Sam with Pete and Jack, but make no real attempt to show us why she's making the choices she does.

NC

**astrogeologist** · 25 February 2005, 09:46 AM

Originally posted by ForeverSg1

It’s funny how different perceptions see different things in the same scene. I guess being a RDA fan before I started watching Stargate may have given me a different perspective on the Sam/Jack relationship. Because for many years, I felt it was Jack who was wearing his heart on his sleeve and Sam not returning the feelings. I saw him constantly reach out to her to create some sort of relationship more than strictly CO/2IC and her push him away in some form or another. I did not think less of her because of this, I felt she was protecting herself emotionally as well as professionally as any fraternization between them could end with a court martial.Examples of Jack's feelings

Great examples, ForeverSG1, and I think we're agreeing in many ways. Jack was more open and friendly in the earlier seasons. And for most of these examples, they were short scenes that did not take on the scope of a B-grade soap-opera storyline, nor did they remove Jack from major involvement in each episode's major scifi plotline - which is what I saw happen with Sam's personal storylines in episodes in Seasons 7 and 8.

Jack was written and portrayed as more open and friendly, and inviting, with Sam in the earlier seasons. Sam was written and portrayed as less aware of the feelings that men had for her (clueless in some cases - and it looked cute and innocent as played by AT). Sam was also written as the one who had to say 'no' to Jack's invitations to go fishing, and she was the one to suggest that they 'keep it in the room' in Divide and Conquer. As Coley mentioned earlier on this thread, I found that to be admirable, although it apparently pissed off some shippers.

When we get to Season 6, things start to change. There is Paradise Lost when Sam cries in the women's locker room. And then there are the scenes in Metamorphosis - and especially where they wrote Sam as laying her head on Jack's shoulder - and Jack showed absolutely no reaction. None. She's close to dying, surely even comrades can show some reaction?

Then we get to Seasons 7&8 and suddenly things become what I can only describe as 'out of balance' with respect to the emphasis on Sam's personal life at the expense of her involvement in the main scifi plotlines. The scenes where Sam's feelings for Jack leave no doubt as to how she feels for him - and they are not the small, light scenes that we saw in earlier seasons with Jack giving hints as to how he might feel.

spoilers for Seasons 7&8

Spoiler:

Originally posted by ChopinGal

I can think of a few ... I guess the many times in the later seasons when Carter tries to tell O'Neill her true feelings or personal thoughts ... the script always pulls her back and makes her seem timid. Cases in point: Grace when she awakens and then says "thank you, sir" but can't quite get the words out to explain more to Jack; Lost City at Jack's house before D&T show up and then on the ship where he interrupts her and says "I know" and she just lets it hang; Affinity when she tries to talk to him about the ring but still doesn't push a little harder after his somewhat cryptic remarks. For me, Sam was not growing better and stronger in these scenes; they left me wanting more for her. However, she was not acting in a vacuum. How Jack was being written in these same scenes played an important factor too. He seemed to cut her off in some (Lost City) and remain remote and unreadable in others (Affinity). I don't think this dance did either of their characters any good.

Again, I think the problem lies in the imbalances. When Jack was missing in Paradise Lost, Sam's emotions showed in how she dealt with Dr. Lee and then she broke down and cried in the locker room. When Sam was missing in Grace, Jack's reactions were much more difficult to figure out. He came across as cold and angry with Daniel in the elevator - and if anyone has a chance at it, Daniel should know how to read Jack O'Neill by now. And then, in the scene with Teal'c in the locker room (it surely seems like they were going for the companion scene to Sam and Teal'c in Paradise Lost), Jack showed almost no emotion - and even quickly made a joke and made light of things by asking Teal'c if he'd missed Jack in Paradise Lost. I suppose that it can all be explained away as Jack not being able to show his emotions for various reasons, but the end result was that Sam's emotions and feelings were laid out and plain to see, whereas Jack's have to be inferred. This is an imbalance that puts Sam at a disadvantage.
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**NearlyCircular** · 25 February 2005, 09:47 AM

Originally posted by Skydiver

maybe one weakness for jack and Teal'c is something they just mentioned in passing in moeb 2

Spoiler:

i think some massive emotional angst could come from the boys if they're put into that situation. they HAVE to watch something happen. they CAN'T respond or 'fix it'

that would be huge honkin heaping helpings of angst and emotional issues for the boys

Sounds like a great idea for a fanfic, Sky! (hint, hint)

Spoiler:

NC

**NearlyCircular** · 25 February 2005, 09:57 AM

Originally posted by astrogeologist

Again, I think the problem lies in the imbalances. When Jack was missing in Paradise Lost, Sam's emotions showed in how she dealt with Dr. Lee and then she broke down and cried in the locker room. When Sam was missing in Grace, Jack's reactions were much more difficult to figure out. He came across as cold and angry with Daniel in the elevator - and if anyone has a chance at it, Daniel should know how to read Jack O'Neill by now. And then, in the scene with Teal'c in the locker room (it surely seems like they were going for the companion scene to Sam and Teal'c in Paradise Lost), Jack showed almost no emotion - and even quickly made a joke and made light of things by asking Teal'c if he'd missed Jack in Paradise Lost. I suppose that it can all be explained away as Jack not being able to show his emotions for various reasons, but the end result was that Sam's emotions and feelings were laid out and plain to see, whereas Jack's have to be inferred. This is an imbalance that puts Sam at a disadvantage.
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You've explained the difference between their reactions perfectly, and expressed exactly what I've been feeling about the imbalance. And even in the early seasons when you could correctly claim that she rejected his overtures, she had a reaction, usually flustered or regretful, but obviously feeling something.

NC

**ForeverSg1** · 25 February 2005, 10:03 AM

Originally posted by astrogeologist

Fantastic exposition, Major Sam! I too believe that most of the 'problems' started when they singled her out for continuous things they don't do with the other lead characters. If they had balanced things out and spead the personal emotional struggles and traumas out between the four main characters then we'd be looking at a totally different fan reaction to the last couple of seasons - don't know if it would be good or bad, just that it wouldn't be so focussed on Sam-bashing!

I have to disagree, I don't believe that the emotional struggles and traumas haven't been balanced between the four characters. I think the problem is that those who do not like a particular character are going to overlook the good qualities about that character and only notice the bad.

In the first four years of the season, I think Daniel was depicted as the most emotional character of the team. He was given many personal struggles and traumas where he would break down in tears. The difference is those who liked Daniel considered it endearing whereas with Sam they consider it to be weak.

I don't think they have portrayed Sam as someone who will cry at the drop of the hat. Though, I don't understand why crying is considered a sign of weakness. I see it as a sign of strength. It shows that the person is able to confront their inner demons and deal with them. Crying is just a realease of one's inner turmoil and frustrations, like we saw with Sam in the elevator scene of Singularity.

In Meridian we saw Sam cry at Daniel's death bed and in Heroes,
in which case both scenes were dealing with losing someone she cared
about.

I think it shows much more character and strength seeing her express her emotions openly than brooding silently in a dark room with a bottle of Jack Daniel's in her hand. In my opinion, Sam is a much stronger person emotionally than someone like Jack, because she doesn't always bottle up all of her emotions. People who do that are time bombs waiting to explode which was very much the case of O'Neill in the first few seasons.

Jack and Teal'c have always been the stoic characters of the show, but
even these two characters have been shown to cry on occassion, just not to the extent of Sam.

Much of the issues with Sam is that they tried to show too much of Sam's personal side at one time; if they had spread all of the issues Sam has had to deal with in seasons seven and eight over all eight years, I don't think there would have been as much complaining or Sam bashing. The problem lies in that too much happened too fast and people were over exposed to her.

With the other characters we have seen personal growth issues in nearly every season. Sam's character was pretty much left stagnant in seasons five and six and the writer's unfortuantely tried to make up for that in the last two seasons and didn't do as great of a job as they could have.

ForeverSG1

**Uber** · 25 February 2005, 10:19 AM

Originally posted by ForeverSg1

It’s funny how different perceptions see different things in the same scene. I guess being a RDA fan before I started watching Stargate may have given me a different perspective on the Sam/Jack relationship. Because for many years, I felt it was Jack who was wearing his heart on his sleeve and Sam not returning the feelings. I saw him constantly reach out to her to create some sort of relationship more than strictly CO/2IC and her push him away in some form or another. I did not think less of her because of this, I felt she was protecting herself emotionally as well as professionally as any fraternization between them could end with a court martial.

I think that this comes closest to the truth when trying to figure out the whole Sam/Jack dynamic.

Looking back at the examples you posted ForeverSg1, I feel that - you're right - Jack was more blatant at times than others and it was Sam who had to put on the proverbial brakes. At other times, Sam was the one who was wobbly, and Jack had to be the one to do so. That adds realism to the situation too because sometimes the man is more vulnerable emotionally and sometimes its the woman.

The most dangerous situations for them exist when both are expressing their feelings at the same time. They have not - to my knowledge - been in a situation where they did so while situationally able to act on them. That would be a true test of their resolve. Fortunately, the times when the barriers fell were times when they did not have the opportunity to act on it (Divide and Conquer) and then afterwards, the protective walls went right back up.

The truth is, that they both protect themselves and each other from any consequences they would suffer for feelings they had carefully avoided expressing openly.

This is what makes them both such fantastic characters IMHO and why they are some of my all-time favorite characters. Both have their strengths and weaknesses. Each one has the others back to make sure they don't do something that could cost them their careers.

Sam is a great example of a strong, capable woman and a good role model for younger girls because she shows that you can be authorative and smart and a warrior while never losing your feminity.

And no matter what Sam has gone through with Jolinar, Jack, Selmac, Apophis, a crazed SuperSoldier, Pete, her dad, she still is able to get up each day and save the galaxy.

Is that a great character or what?

**astrogeologist** · 25 February 2005, 10:48 AM

Originally posted by ForeverSg1

Much of the issues with Sam is that they tried to show too much of Sam's personal side at one time; if they had spread all of the issues Sam has had to deal with in seasons seven and eight over all eight years, I don't think there would have been as much complaining or Sam bashing.

Well put ForeverSG1!

Originally posted by ÜberSG-1Fan

Sam is a great example of a strong, capable woman and a good role model for younger girls because she shows that you can be authorative and smart and a warrior while never losing your feminity.

And no matter what Sam has gone through with Jolinar, Jack, Selmac, Apophis, a crazed SuperSoldier, Pete, her dad, she still is able to get up each day and save the galaxy.

Is that a great character or what?

Is that a great character or what?!

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**ForeverSg1** · 25 February 2005, 10:55 AM

Originally posted by astrogeologist

spoilers for Seasons 7&8

Spoiler:

OH! I totally see where you are coming from now. Laugh, you'll have to forgive my last few posts. What's the old saying 'I see the light at the end of the tunnel'?

I think my mind has been in a fog over the past few days because I was reading something completely different in the posts as to what everyone was trying to state.

I have to agree, I think how they have written Sam and Jack the past two seasons very unbalanced. Maybe it's their way of keeping the angst between them. They never seem to both be on the same page. In seasons 1-4 it was Jack pressing and Sam walking backwards and in seasons 5-8 it was Sam pressing and Jack walking backwards.

I don't know why they feel the need to write such unnecesary angst into the storylines. Before I became a shipper, I used to get very angry that the writers changed Jack's personality. He seemed to become suddenly less caring towards all the other members of the team as well as 'dumbed-down' if you will. He had always played down his intelligence especially when he was around Sam, but over the seasons he has become much more confused-looking if you ask me. My dedication has always been to the team and I felt the writers were going out of their way to place a wedge between the characters in seasons five and six.

They unfortunately must have decided that in season seven, Sam was the new scape goat and being vague became a new artform for Jack. I think I have so disliked how some of the storylines have been played out that I tried to close my eyes to what was going on and just try to focus on the good points.

The scenes at Jack's house both during Lost City and Threads made me highly uncomfortable. Before season six, I always questioned whether Sam reciprocated Jack's feeling. As a shipper, those moments you mentioned above only strengthened the idea that there were deep feelings between both Sam and Jack. However as a Sam fan, I hated the idea the was constantly putting herself into that situation and not getting a response or reaction. My way of justifying the irritation was telling myself that if I felt that much discomfort with the scenes that AT was doing a wonderful job.

Maybe the writers believe that happy, well-adjusted characters and team are sort of like an extremely happy marriage...boring. One can only hope that writers will get off this type of thinking and get back to the shows roots.

As for the head on the shoulder in Metamorphis, I don't think that scene was actually written like that. I believe it was AT and RDA who suggested that Sam place her head on Jack's shoulder.

ForeverSG1

**ForeverSg1** · 25 February 2005, 11:06 AM

I want to apologize to everyone for my posts recently.
I know they may seem very confusing and not well thought out
at times. Unfortunately I'm a stay-at-home mom and homeschooler
and my four year old always seems to decide to climb into my
lap and sing into my ear just as I'm trying reply to something.

As annoying as it can be at times, it's hard to look into her face and
be angry when she is singing the following words:

There is no use in crying
you gotta keep trying
because in the end
you will discover
There is always a way
You gotta know you can make it
There is always a way
You gotta believe in yourself.
If you believe, there is always a way

LoL, just thought I'd give you a brief moment into my chaotic mind.

ForeverSG1

**deepspace** · 25 February 2005, 11:54 AM

Looks like everyone's been having fun in Samanda, and lots of new faces too!Twenty pages while I was gone

!!!!!!!!
ok, I need to go catch up...

and I nearly missed the season4 poll!

**hrh36** · 25 February 2005, 12:04 PM

Originally posted by Skydiver

my season 9 fantasy would be to have sam and teal'c trapped somewhere, maybe with teal'c nicely incapicitated, and see some real bonding between the two of them. I'd love to see super warrior teal'c having to depend on a woman to cover his tushie (and what a fine tushie it is

)

it may sound like a fanfic cliche, and in some ways it is, but i would love to see the two of them off on their own adventure.

Yep, kind of like a "Solitudes" 'cept it's Sam/Teal'c. And Daniel can still be working his tail off to find his teammates. Sounds good to me.

hrh

P.S. Don't really care what BB's character does. As long as the Big Three are working together, concerned for each other, I'm happy.

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