Sam Carter/Amanda Tapping Discussion/Appreciation

[astrogeologist]

Astrog, I was writing this as you posted, so I can see we're thinking along the same lines. Chocdoc's post triggered some of the thoughts below.

I've been thinking about something along these lines for a couple of days now and wasn't sure if I should post it here, because we are such a positive thread, and I don't want to gripe too much. I'll repeat what I've said before, I still think Sam is the best female leading character in tv, and in all the cases I’m describing below, Amanda did a wonderful job, showing Sam as bashful, funny, passionate, heartbroken, flustered, or whatever was called for in the script.

And I think AT deserves resounding applause for how professional she is at getting her job done so superbly!

However, I felt some aspects of Sam’s character took a turn for the worse in a few episodes of the last 2 seasons, mainly because of the way TPTB showed her relationships with Pete and Jack.

Looking at Sam’s relationships over the years, it seemed like she was maturing in the way she dealt with the men in her life. In the early seasons, with Jonas Hanson and Narim, she seemed unsure of herself and somewhat shy and embarrassed by the attention. In the middle years, you could see her becoming more secure, as evidenced by the way she behaved with Orlin in Ascension and Joe in 2001. Her teasing flirting in Forsaken and her obvious happiness with Pete early in Chimera showed even more growth. Here was a woman who (finally) felt secure enough with prospective or current boyfriends to kid around with them and actually enjoy the compliments that they gave her. So following that progression, she should have been shown as even more confident in herself this season. Unfortunately, I think TPTB have presented her as even more insecure than the early seasons. In Threads, when Sam is talking to Jack at his house and then later to Pete, I saw a flustered, confused, anxious Sam, not the strong, secure, confident character that has been slowly created over the years. It just didn’t feel right.

Well-described and analyzed NC!

It also bothers me that lately, TPTB chose to show only Sam’s struggle with her feelings, and not Jack’s. I know he’s supposed to be the strong, stoic type, but his lack of reaction to Kerry’s speech in Threads and his immediate interruptions of Sam whenever she attempted to bring up the subject as in Lost City, did make him look unfeeling, uncaring, or completely unwilling to deal with that aspect of his life. As you said CG, it doesn't show Jack in a good light either. We know that the man does feel deeply about others, and can show affection, as he demonstrated when he touched Teal’c’s face in Lost City. I found that simple scene with Teal’c to be one of the most moving moments in the entire series. It showed a depth of caring and friendship that didn’t need to be expressed in words. I realize that outward displays of affection between Jack and Sam (other than hugs of comfort) would probably not get by the Air Force advisors. But if they could have shown in some way that Jack was interested, it would have seemed less like Sam was almost begging Jack to pay attention to her. NC

NC - I couldn't have said it better myself (and I tried to in my earlier post). You just encapsulated most of how I've seen the past couple of seasons when it came to how they wrote Sam's pursuit of a personal life, her struggle with her feelings for Jack, and Jack's apparent non-reactions. And your comments about the way Jack was written aer exactly what I struggled to put into words in my earlier post, but I couldn't find the right way to say it. You said it perfectly!

[astrogeologist]

The writers I guess seemed much more willing to sacrifice Sam's character in this story arc than Jack's. That is a bit upsetting to me. They both cannot get together as long as they are in the same unit or Sam is under Jack's command, so they could have just let the attraction ride until the end of the series when Jack could retire, if they were determined to get them together.

AHHHH. Please let's just have the wonderfully complex character of Sam ---a kick-butt science-wiz who is a competent soldier, and a compassionate human being----in season nine.

Great comments and good observations chocdoc!

I think the writers chose to take Sam down this 'personal road' and they developed it as they went along... without realizing the repercussions of not doing the same thing with the other three lead characters - especially Jack. Some of the repercussions have led to Sam-bashing by the folks who don't want anything but impersonal scifi action - as well as from those who like ship, but were afraid that they were losing the Sam-Jack ship. And I think that Sam's character became the target for many folks' frustrations and fears... that very Sam-bashing is the reason that MajorSal started this thread (if I remember the opening post well enough).
.

[chocdoc]

I've been thinking about something along these lines for a couple of days now and wasn't sure if I should post it here, because we are such a positive thread, and I don't want to gripe too much. I'll repeat what I've said before, I still think Sam is the best female leading character in tv, and in all the cases I’m describing below, Amanda did a wonderful job, showing Sam as bashful, funny, passionate, heartbroken, flustered, or whatever was called for in the script. However, I felt some aspects of Sam’s character took a turn for the worse in a few episodes of the last 2 seasons, mainly because of the way TPTB showed her relationships with Pete and Jack.

Looking at Sam’s relationships over the years, it seemed like she was maturing in the way she dealt with the men in her life. In the early seasons, with Jonas Hanson and Narim, she seemed unsure of herself and somewhat shy and embarrassed by the attention. In the middle years, you could see her becoming more secure, as evidenced by the way she behaved with Orlin in Ascension and Joe in 2001. Her teasing flirting in Forsaken and her obvious happiness with Pete early in Chimera showed even more growth. Here was a woman who (finally) felt secure enough with prospective or current boyfriends to kid around with them and actually enjoy the compliments that they gave her. So following that progression, she should have been shown as even more confident in herself this season. Unfortunately, I think TPTB have presented her as even more insecure than the early seasons. In Threads, when Sam is talking to Jack at his house and then later to Pete, I saw a flustered, confused, anxious Sam, not the strong, secure, confident character that has been slowly created over the years. It just didn’t feel right.

It also bothers me that lately, TPTB chose to show only Sam’s struggle with her feelings, and not Jack’s. I know he’s supposed to be the strong, stoic type, but his lack of reaction to Kerry’s speech in Threads and his immediate interruptions of Sam whenever she attempted to bring up the subject as in Lost City, did make him look unfeeling, uncaring, or completely unwilling to deal with that aspect of his life. As you said CG, it doesn't show Jack in a good light either. We know that the man does feel deeply about others, and can show affection, as he demonstrated when he touched Teal’c’s face in Lost City. I found that simple scene with Teal’c to be one of the most moving moments in the entire series. It showed a depth of caring and friendship that didn’t need to be expressed in words. I realize that outward displays of affection between Jack and Sam (other than hugs of comfort) would probably not get by the Air Force advisors. But if they could have shown in some way that Jack was interested, it would have seemed less like Sam was almost begging Jack to pay attention to her.

NC

NC

You are answering some of my questions. I was hoping that Jack's reaction to Kerry's comments would make it clear that he does have feelings for Sam, but it looks like, in your view, this did not come across. RATS! I have to wait and see it myself, but I was really hoping that Jack's feelings would be clear. To me the writers are jerking Sam's character around too much on this issue. It it like they are trying to please all of fandom, so they don't really take a stand on any of this.

Hey, maybe all her behavior with this romance stuff is consistent for Sam. She has a horrible record in regard to dating and boyfriends. She does seem awkward about the whole romance area. Maybe they are writing her consistently because she has no clue about how attractive she is and, as Skydiver said, she is very insecure when it comes to this. I remember in Affinity (I didn't like this episode at all ) (not the teal'c parts either), Sam seemed so surprised that Pete could still be with her and handle her work situation. But Astro, you are saying that you thought Sam was getting more confident in herself in later seasons. I don't know, maybe so. She just seems to be clueless about why guys would fall in love with her.

[NearlyCircular]

NC

You are answering some of my questions. I was hoping that Jack's reaction to Kerry's comments would make it clear that he does have feelings for Sam, but it looks like, in your view, this did not come across. RATS! I have to wait and see it myself, but I was really hoping that Jack's feelings would be clear. To me the writers are jerking Sam's character around too much on this issue. It it like they are trying to please all of fandom, so they don't really take a stand on any of this.

chocdoc, you really will have to judge for yourself when you watch the episode. Ship really is in the eye of the beholder, and maybe others will interpret his reaction or lack of reaction differently than I do.

You're absolutely right about TPTB trying to please all of fandom. They keep things vague enough that we can read almost anything we want into it. If I think Jack and Sam are good friends and comrades and nothing else, I could see the scenes in Metamorphosis, Death Knell, Heroes 2, and Threads where there are hugs or head rests as evidence of showing comfort to a friend. On the other hand, if I believe there’s an unspoken love between the characters, I could see the same scenes as soul mates reaching out to each other.

NC

[ChopinGal]

... Jack's pursuit of a personal life, or his feelings for Sam, have not been written or shown in the same fashion that we have seen Sam's personal life or her feelings for Jack. I think that this imbalance is the source of many folks' consternation and frustration. It's difficult to understand what isn't said or shown.

With all of the screen caps that I have been working with lately, I have watched snips from lots of the first four seasons... and one thing stood out for me... Jack O'Neill seemed more open and more easy-going in those first few seasons... His smile seemed easier... He called her Sam - and it was no big deal...

Hmmm... just gets me thinking...

Me too! You have named one of the issues for sure. We do have evidence of Sam reaching out to Jack (your excellent references in prior post), but we do not have the same momentum on Jack's part.

This gap in the ongoing "tap dance" (RDA) of Jack and Sam created a more-distant, elusive Jack as the seasons went on. All the little innocent gestures and moments of teasing and fun seemed to be whittled out or rarely seen. It's delightful to look at the early DVDs because of those sidelong glances and good-natured ribbing that often took place between the characters. It's what endeared them to us in the first place!

So, to have Sam approach Jack and want to share her feelings or thoughts with him, only to be rebuffed, began to make Sam look more angsty and unsure of herself. Something was definitely lost in the translation. Way back in S5's Ascension, there a seed was planted ... Sam desperately wanting to get Jack's feedback and support in the hallway, and they had him running into the men's room! It did not bode well for future seasons.

Yes, I may be overreacting ... but you touched a nerve. People can "tap dance" solo, but it takes "two to tango" ... RDA and AT should have been given scripts to integrate and compliment the characters of Jack and Sam and had them dancing in step; rather than scripts which had them dancing alone, or side-stepping around that 500 lb. gorilla.

It's late and I'm not sure this post is coherent ... sorry!

[Agent_Dark]

Jack's pursuit of a personal life, or his feelings for Sam, have not been written or shown in the same fashion that we have seen Sam's personal life or her feelings for Jack. I think that this imbalance is the source of many folks' consternation and frustration. It's difficult to understand what isn't said or shown.
Jack O'Neill seemed more open and more easy-going in those first few seasons... His smile seemed easier... He called her Sam - and it was no big deal...

I think some of that has to do with RDA's reduced screen time during S7 and S8 and to a lesser extent S6. RDA and AT hardly had any screen time together during these seasons (at least alot less than during seasons 1-5). It seemed to me that in order to compensate for RDA's lack of screen time, the writers had to come up with ways for Sam alone to display the UST between them. And that led to a (to quote Felger) 'Hinky' part of her character development.
I'm almost upbeat (kinda) about RDA's absence during S9. He's an great actor and O'Neill's character is great as well, but because of the reduced sceen time it was harming the other characters developments. With RDA leaving, I don't think the writers will chose to try and show Sam/Jack moments anymore. (/me puts on flame retardent suit to fend of the shippers )
I'm not an antishipper, nor a shipper, but it just seems to me that the whole Sam/Jack thing hasn't really worked lately. It was great during the early seasons, especially during Divide and Conquer, but where are the Divide and Conquer moments of S7 and 8?
Anyway not to start a ship/antiship arguement or anything, that's just my thoughts. All I want is a well written Sam character in Season9!!!!

[chocdoc]

I think the writers chose to take Sam down this 'personal road' and they developed it as they went along... without realizing the repercussions of not doing the same thing with the other three lead characters - especially Jack. Some of the repercussions have led to Sam-bashing by the folks who don't want anything but impersonal scifi action - as well as from those who like ship, but were afraid that they were losing the Sam-Jack ship. And I think that Sam's character became the target for many folks' frustrations and fears... that very Sam-bashing is the reason that MajorSal started this thread (if I remember the opening post well enough).
.

Yes, I think you're right! The writers did not seem to know where they were going with this---it felt like they kept digging themselves deeper and deeper into the abyss. The main goal: get Sam a boyfriend that didn't die--okay, that might not be bad, but the way they did it was awful, in my opinion. ((Chimera is a great example of an episode in desperate need of the perspective from a female writer!!)) Of course, then some J/S shippers react (can't really blame them particularly because Pete is not written well), and so then the writers have to show that, oh yeah, she really likes Pete, but oh yeah, she DOES have feelings for Jack. So all the "feelings" come from her side. Jack isn't going out on her, but she is seeing Pete---so let's create tension and also make it clear that she still does have feelings for Jack. AHHHHHHHHHHH, once again!!

Teal'c's romantic life has been touched upon in season eight with Affinity and Sacrifices. Teal'c little action with his neighbor in Affinity was poor writing to me, but Teal'c's character wouldn't get bashed for this---this action does not threaten anything fandom holds dear. And his romance with Ishta makes sense because it is part of the stargate world---this is much better.

Daniel's bizarre interaction with Vala in season eight---not romance--but for me the whole fight scene was totally inappropriate---putting physical violence and sexual innuendo together is just not sending a good message, IMO.

I end with, yes Sam is still a great character despite the writers messing up the romance arc---how many women can do what she can do and so well on any TV show. And kudos to Amanda Tapping for being such a great actor, making Sam so believable all these years, and sometimes in spite of some poor writing!! Regardless of some poor writing, AT seems to be getting high praise from many fans for her protrayal of different "sides" of sam in the second half of season eight.

I just read a post recently on another thread here and the fan was appreciating how AT made Sam so believable in all the technobabble she has to do. I shudder to think what would have happened to this show if an actress played Sam that could not come across as a believable scientist and soldier---I think it might have tanked, but AT has made this character very accessible and believable as a genius, a soldier, and a compassionate person.

[NearlyCircular]

I think the writers chose to take Sam down this 'personal road' and they developed it as they went along... without realizing the repercussions of not doing the same thing with the other three lead characters - especially Jack. Some of the repercussions have led to Sam-bashing by the folks who don't want anything but impersonal scifi action - as well as from those who like ship, but were afraid that they were losing the Sam-Jack ship. And I think that Sam's character became the target for many folks' frustrations and fears... that very Sam-bashing is the reason that MajorSal started this thread (if I remember the opening post well enough).
.

Great observations! You hit the nail right on the head. There's a distinct difference in the way that the guy's personal relationships have been presented compared to Sam's, and not to her benefit.

NC

[Agent_Dark]

I just read a post recently on another thread here and the fan was appreciating how AT made Sam so believable in all the technobabble she has to do. I shudder to think what would have happened to this show if an actress played Sam that could not come across as a believable scientist and soldier---I think it might have tanked, but AT has made this character very accessible and believable as a genius, a soldier, and a compassionate person.

On the lowdown on the S6 boxset, AT talks about that and she says that she's glad she takes the time to research what she talks about so she doesn't come across as a bambi
And I've heard numerous directors, cast etc on DVD commentaries praise Amanda for it because it does make the character much more believable. Just look at any random extra who tries to technobabble and fail

[Uber]

Astrog, I was writing this as you posted, so I can see we're thinking along the same lines. Chocdoc's post triggered some of the thoughts below.

I've been thinking about something along these lines for a couple of days now and wasn't sure if I should post it here, because we are such a positive thread, and I don't want to gripe too much. I'll repeat what I've said before, I still think Sam is the best female leading character in tv, and in all the cases I’m describing below, Amanda did a wonderful job, showing Sam as bashful, funny, passionate, heartbroken, flustered, or whatever was called for in the script. However, I felt some aspects of Sam’s character took a turn for the worse in a few episodes of the last 2 seasons, mainly because of the way TPTB showed her relationships with Pete and Jack.

Looking at Sam’s relationships over the years, it seemed like she was maturing in the way she dealt with the men in her life. In the early seasons, with Jonas Hanson and Narim, she seemed unsure of herself and somewhat shy and embarrassed by the attention. In the middle years, you could see her becoming more secure, as evidenced by the way she behaved with Orlin in Ascension and Joe in 2001. Her teasing flirting in Forsaken and her obvious happiness with Pete early in Chimera showed even more growth. Here was a woman who (finally) felt secure enough with prospective or current boyfriends to kid around with them and actually enjoy the compliments that they gave her. So following that progression, she should have been shown as even more confident in herself this season. Unfortunately, I think TPTB have presented her as even more insecure than the early seasons. In Threads, when Sam is talking to Jack at his house and then later to Pete, I saw a flustered, confused, anxious Sam, not the strong, secure, confident character that has been slowly created over the years. It just didn’t feel right.

It also bothers me that lately, TPTB chose to show only Sam’s struggle with her feelings, and not Jack’s. I know he’s supposed to be the strong, stoic type, but his lack of reaction to Kerry’s speech in Threads and his immediate interruptions of Sam whenever she attempted to bring up the subject as in Lost City, did make him look unfeeling, uncaring, or completely unwilling to deal with that aspect of his life. As you said CG, it doesn't show Jack in a good light either. We know that the man does feel deeply about others, and can show affection, as he demonstrated when he touched Teal’c’s face in Lost City. I found that simple scene with Teal’c to be one of the most moving moments in the entire series. It showed a depth of caring and friendship that didn’t need to be expressed in words. I realize that outward displays of affection between Jack and Sam (other than hugs of comfort) would probably not get by the Air Force advisors. But if they could have shown in some way that Jack was interested, it would have seemed less like Sam was almost begging Jack to pay attention to her.

NC

I agree about the Air Force advisors and had a couple thoughts regarding the interaction with Jack.

Obviously in Divide and Conquer, they both acknowledged they had feelings for each other that because of duty and regulations, they could not pursue. That didn't make the feelings go away, of course.

Whereas some feel that Sam was timid in her approaching Jack with her feelings - I find it incredibly brave because of the regulations barrier - because she knew he COULD NOT really acknowledge and respond the way she wanted him to (dang it, I ended that sentence in a preposition!)

He had to be the strong one and cut the conversations short because IMHO he probably knew that if he responded any differently they might end up doing or saying things that could cost them both.

In Grace, I think Sam came to the conclusion that she cared for Jack pretty much only because she couldn't have him - but I'll blame that falsehood on the fact that she slammed her head against a wall and lost consciousness. Pete came along at the time when she was ready and willing to spread her emotional wings - only problem was, it seems for her the relationship was based more on trying to prove to herself that she didn't want continue caring for Jack which seemed at the time to ostensibly be a lost cause than it was based on a true life-long connection with Pete.

Her character evolution has been a delight to see as far as I'm concerned - from the completely emotionally immature young woman in Children of the Gods, to the daughter who had a difficult relationship with her father who apparently she'll lose in Threads, to a friend who lost her best friend Janet in Heroes 2, to the woman we see today - smart, passionate, courageous and loyal.

Sure, emotionally she has not been so strong in all areas of her personal life - but who has? To me this just shows some of her flaws - that the brilliant Sam Carter who can blow up a sun has some emotional issues she still needs to resolve.



Wow. That was long and probably not as clear as I'd like. If you didn't like what I wrote, please give me the benefit of the doubt that I usually more concise but I had to take Advil a little bit ago so I'm feeling its effects.

If you did like it, then forget the above disclaimer (although it's still true).

[chocdoc]

Me too! You have named one of the issues for sure. We do have evidence of Sam reaching out to Jack (your excellent references in prior post), but we do not have the same momentum on Jack's part.

This gap in the ongoing "tap dance" (RDA) of Jack and Sam created a more-distant, elusive Jack as the seasons went on. All the little innocent gestures and moments of teasing and fun seemed to be whittled out or rarely seen. It's delightful to look at the early DVDs because of those sidelong glances and good-natured ribbing that often took place between the characters. It's what endeared them to us in the first place!

So, to have Sam approach Jack and want to share her feelings or thoughts with him, only to be rebuffed, began to make Sam look more angsty and unsure of herself. Something was definitely lost in the translation. Way back in S5's Ascension, there a seed was planted ... Sam desperately wanting to get Jack's feedback and support in the hallway, and they had him running into the men's room! It did not bode well for future seasons.

Yes, I may be overreacting ... but you touched a nerve. People can "tap dance" solo, but it takes "two to tango" ... RDA and AT should have been given scripts to integrate and compliment the characters of Jack and Sam and had them dancing in step; rather than scripts which had them dancing alone, or side-stepping around that 500 lb. gorilla.

It's late and I'm not sure this post is coherent ... sorry!

I think you said it beautifully, Chopingal. I hadn't thought about that scene in Ascension in that way before. Actually, all three male characters really did not interact with Sam well in this episode--none of them really supported her, if I remember correctly.

Dancing alone, or side-stepping, yeah---what goofs the writers are in this arc!!

[chocdoc]

Sure, emotionally she has not been so strong in all areas of her personal life - but who has? To me this just shows some of her flaws - that the brilliant Sam Carter who can blow up a sun has some emotional issues she still needs to resolve.

I like this---indeed.

And glad the advil is kicking in for you.

[NearlyCircular]

My, we're all fired up, aren't we? It seems we've all been inwardly seething about this.

Teal'c's romantic life has been touched upon in season eight with Affinity and Sacrifices. Teal'c little action with his neighbor in Affinity was poor writing to me, but Teal'c's character wouldn't get bashed for this---this action does not threaten anything fandom holds dear. And his romance with Ishta makes sense because it is part of the stargate world---this is much better.

You're right, Teal'c didn't get bashed for Affinity, did he? He didn't get bashed for Sacrifices, either, where I thought he showed a a lack of respect for Ishta. (I guess I can get a little overprotective of other female characters besides Sam. )

NC

[ChopinGal]

... Her character evolution has been a delight to see as far as I'm concerned -from the completely emotionally immature young woman in Children of the Gods, to the daughter who had a difficult relationship with her father who apparently she'll lose in Threads, to a friend who lost her best friend Janet in Heroes 2, to the woman we see today - smart, passionate, courageous and loyal.

Sure, emotionally she has not been so strong in all areas of her personal life - but who has? To me this just shows some of her flaws - that the brilliant Sam Carter who can blow up a sun has some emotional issues she still needs to resolve.



Wow. That was long and probably not as clear as I'd like. If you didn't like what I wrote, please give me the benefit of the doubt that I usually more concise but I had to take Advil a little bit ago so I'm feeling its effects.

If you did like it, then forget the above disclaimer (although it's still true).

This is a great post ... don't need the disclaimer! You have made strong points and expressed them well, especially your last paragraphs about the "evolution of Sam".

[NearlyCircular]

Me too! You have named one of the issues for sure. We do have evidence of Sam reaching out to Jack (your excellent references in prior post), but we do not have the same momentum on Jack's part.

This gap in the ongoing "tap dance" (RDA) of Jack and Sam created a more-distant, elusive Jack as the seasons went on. All the little innocent gestures and moments of teasing and fun seemed to be whittled out or rarely seen. It's delightful to look at the early DVDs because of those sidelong glances and good-natured ribbing that often took place between the characters. It's what endeared them to us in the first place!

So, to have Sam approach Jack and want to share her feelings or thoughts with him, only to be rebuffed, began to make Sam look more angsty and unsure of herself. Something was definitely lost in the translation. Way back in S5's Ascension, there a seed was planted ... Sam desperately wanting to get Jack's feedback and support in the hallway, and they had him running into the men's room! It did not bode well for future seasons.

Yes, I may be overreacting ... but you touched a nerve. People can "tap dance" solo, but it takes "two to tango" ... RDA and AT should have been given scripts to integrate and compliment the characters of Jack and Sam and had them dancing in step; rather than scripts which had them dancing alone, or side-stepping around that 500 lb. gorilla.

It's late and I'm not sure this post is coherent ... sorry!

Well said, CG. I was trying to remember the first time I saw him cutting her off like that when she wasn't technobabbling and I think you're right, it was Ascension.

There did seem to be a more relaxed relationship in the earlier years. There was a hint of that at the beginning of Citizen Joe, when they're on the phone, but have we seen it much anywhere else?

On a slightly different topic, I've read posts on other threads where people have complained about Jack's character this year, saying that all he does is come on and make wise cracks. I think he's probably making the same number of smart a** remarks as usual, but since his screen time is so reduced, they seem to make up the bulk of his dialog. It's not surprising then, I guess, that his interactions with Sam and the rest of the team would suffer.

NC