Who's looking forward to Carter coming to Atlantis and Weir leaving?

[Mirel]

I am! Since I like Carter. I don't like Weir that much, she dóes make bad decisions in my opinion. Ultimately Caldwell would be a great leader I think, but since he's commanding the Daedalus..

I think the teamdynamics will get better, I mean, look at Pegasus Project. I like Carter, I like McKay, and I love every moment those two shared.

[ReganX]

I'm looking forward to having Sam on Atlantis but not to Weir leaving.

I hope to see lots of them both next season.

[Ltcolshepjumper]

I am! Since I like Carter. I don't like Weir that much, she dóes make bad decisions in my opinion. Ultimately Caldwell would be a great leader I think, but since he's commanding the Daedalus..

I think the teamdynamics will get better, I mean, look at Pegasus Project. I like Carter, I like McKay, and I love every moment those two shared.

well, I'm not looking forward to it. And what makes you thing Carter could do better than Weir? No, I'm not looking forward to weir leaving and Carter replacing her (since that is what you are suggesting)

[Mirel]

well, I'm not looking forward to it. And what makes you thing Carter could do better than Weir? No, I'm not looking forward to weir leaving and Carter replacing her (since that is what you are suggesting)
I don't mean replacing here like the leader of Atlantis.

[Blitz]

I am looking forward to Carter coming along as I think she will create a good new dynamic

As for Weir leaving, not so happy.

[Lt. Colonel Cameron Mitchell]

Yes I'm a fan of Carter for many reasons but I've never been a fan of Weir so I'm not sorry to see her role reduced or leave all together so I say bring it on. :sam: :sam: :sam:

[Mitchell82]

I am looking forward to Carter coming along as I think she will create a good new dynamic

As for Weir leaving, not so happy.

Same. I'll miss weir but if done right I might be okay with it.

[VSHARMA]

I'm not. Sorry.

[Commander Ivanova]

I'm not looking forward to Carter's arrival even though I liked her on SG1. I'm waiting to see how it will affect SGA, have a bad feeling about it though I'm hoping to be pleasantly surprised.
Weir was never my favourite character. Can't say I'll miss her but I'm not in a hurry to see her go.

[Ltcolshepjumper]

I don't mean replacing here like the leader of Atlantis.

Well, I'm not looking forward to it. I'll wait and see how it turns out, but I'd rather much have the SGA cast remain the same, especially since PM was kicked out.

[J_B]

I am! Since I like Carter. I don't like Weir that much, she dóes make bad decisions in my opinion. Ultimately Caldwell would be a great leader I think, but since he's commanding the Daedalus..

I think the teamdynamics will get better, I mean, look at Pegasus Project. I like Carter, I like McKay, and I love every moment those two shared.

It'll probably turn out that she doesn't leave at all! They all but have the 1st half written, JM posted in his blog a couple of weeks ago that they don't have a set amount of eps for her, while she'll be in a major S4 arc.

So I think she'll be about for the whole season, just not in as many eps, perhaps like Zelenka, Lorne etc, or Landry, Hammond etc on SG-1.

Caldwell & MP would be a great addition to Atlantis. I really think they screwed up by not giving him a full time role on the show.

While I can't wait for Carter to come so that she can start getting results from the Atlantis database, something which McKay hasn't had much success with. Not to mention the fact of she brings the Asgard tech along with her!

[Elite Anubis Guard]

I think the teamdynamics will get better, I mean, look at Pegasus Project. I like Carter, I like McKay, and I love every moment those two shared.

Bah! They turn him into an idiot when she's around. I hate it.

[CptOats]

I think atlantis is fine as it is and im looking forward to seeing more of the new doctor shes hot, i think carter will ruin it and think shes better than mckay which she aint so no, but i dont like weir so....

[prion]

Although this topic has been beaten to death on this board, my vote is:

Not happy that they're reducing Weir
Not happy that Carter is coming over

I don't believe Carter will add anything to SGA, and that part of it is nothing more than a marketing strategy to lure die-hard SG1-only fans over to SGA (well, TPTB have admitted that anyway).

[Uber]

Well again...this topic has been spoken of in great detail...but it's important to remember they are completely separate. Even if Carter is put in charge of the expedition, they are separate issues because the Weir and Carter decisions were made independently of each other.

That being said, I love Carter and am excited that she'll be headed to Atlantis. I think she has a lot to contribute as a character and the stories and team will benefit by her presence.

I like Weir but never fully warmed to her. I think she has potential but it was potential that was never fully explored and for whatever reason, never really will be it seems.

[PG15]

I don't know what I think.

All I know is, there have been changes behind the scenes that could mean a great many things when it translates onto the screen. I for one don't know how things will turn out, so I can't really say whether I'm looking forward to it or not.

Makes sense? ;)

[Dr Weir]

*Vomits at the thought of Weir leaving and Carter coming to Atlantis.*

[SG13-NightOps]

I am looking forward to Carter. I haven't been told that "weir is leaving" from a credible source though. Only assuming imaginations. If she does actually leave, it will be dissapointing, much like when Janet died, Hammond left, Jack left, Carson died. But IMO, no one person is bigger than the show (and the only person who came close was O'Neill, which is why it is wonderful he pops up again occasionally).

I am very interested to see what happens now.

[Orlin2000]

well said nightops, you are totally right, no one character makes the show, and ive said it many times before aslong as there is a gate that people go through to fight badguys i will remain a loyal fan and then probably even after that.

[Rosehawk]

Sam is one of my favorite characters. I wasn't too keen on her coming to Atlantis at first. Now that I am getting use to the idea, I think they can have some fun and great storylines and not at McKay's expense so now I am getting kind of excited to see what they are going to do with Sam.

I am not at all happy that Weir's role is being reduced. In fact, I think there could be some great storylines with Sam helping Weir get through the political challenges and help to get her confidence back and make her a better leader on Atlantis. Sam could really give alot to a storyline like that.

[Anubis-]

I'm not happy at all. Carter was seen in Atlantis too mutch allready.

[Celcool]

Count me in among people who are not looking forward to any of this. Carter out, Weir stays a regular!


well, I'm not looking forward to it. And what makes you thing Carter could do better than Weir? No, I'm not looking forward to weir leaving and Carter replacing her (since that is what you are suggesting)
Exactly, why would Carter do better, it would after all be the same people writing her. It's not up to the character which decisions she makes.


*Vomits at the thought of Weir leaving and Carter coming to Atlantis.*
Hear ya.

[Falcon Horus]

Magic 8-ball says: Not me.

[atlantis_babe34]

Looking Foward to Carter leaving cus i hate crossovers and Elizabeth Coming back!

[s09119]

I want them both.

:sam: - Carter may be the SGC's Golden Girl, but she's also a capable leader who's skills and experience make her a logical choice for starship commander, and possibly even city administrator while Weir recovers.

:weir: - Weir has proven time and again that she's level-headed in a crisis and can make good decisions. She's dedicated to watching over all the members of her expedition, and knows how to stand up to the IOA and the military when she knows they're wrong.

[techjunkie]

I am! Since I like Carter. I don't like Weir that much, she does make bad decisions in my opinion. Ultimately Caldwell would be a great leader I think, but since he's commanding the Daedalus..

I think the team dynamics will get better, I mean, look at Pegasus Project. I like Carter, I like McKay, and I love every moment those two shared.

I totally agree, Wier was a serious week link in story development. I don't blame the actress - she did a great job for the crap written for her. But in my humble opinion, the writers wrote her into a corner as a strong administrator - but a weak commander. Her eventual replacement (*inner thoughts - Sam - but I doubt it*) will likely be military.

The same goes for Carson's departure - which I don't know if its been aired in the US yet. His character had little if any development, his role was poorly written, and I think he was left by the way side. Giving him 'the boot' this year, opened the door for more stories and development.

With Carter (and her new ship), Season four is gonna rock!

Tech Junkie

[Killdeer]

Well, I agree with those that mentioned that this topic has come up quite a bit, but .... :D Definately not me. I've had my temper tantrums and now reside (mostly) quietly in the state of resignation, but I liked Weir quite a bit, and Carter hasn't been a favorite of mine since seasons 1-3 (although in fairness it wasn't until season 8 that I started having a serious problem with her). And as far as making bad decisions, the way I see it every cast member on Atlantis and SG-1 has made bad decisions at least one point, including Carter...Gemini? Trinity? The Long Goodbye? Insiders? I guess I'm not sure Weir is so much worse than anyone else.

I'm also in the group that doesn't enjoy Carter/McKay interactions. The only time I've thought it was OK was in McKay & Mrs Miller, because Rodney was too distracted by his issues with Jeannie to be up to his usual (IMO) awful flirting with Carter.

I love the team dynamics on Atlantis already-it's the reason I watch the show. I'm willing to see how it turns out. But it's still not my first choice.

Just my opinion. No attack meant on anyone who has a different one. I'm looking forward to season four too. I may have a little more dread mixed with my anticipation than some of you, but each to their own right? :D

[Gen_J_O'Neill]

I totally agree, Wier was a serious week link in story development. I don't blame the actress - she did a great job for the crap written for her. But in my humble opinion, the writers wrote her into a corner as a strong administrator - but a weak commander. Her eventual replacement (*inner thoughts - Sam - but I doubt it*) will likely be military.

The same goes for Carson's departure - which I don't know if its been aired in the US yet. His character had little if any development, his role was poorly written, and I think he was left by the way side. Giving him 'the boot' this year, opened the door for more stories and development.

With Carter (and her new ship), Season four is gonna rock!

Tech Junkie

I agree 100%! Couldn't have said it better myself. :)

[DelTrax1]

I was under the understanding that all the cast of Atlantis was on board for this year. So I would assume that Weir isn't going any where.

[jenks]

I'm looking forward to season 4, not because Carter is coming to Atlantis though. I'm pleased about Weir, but I'm not convinced that they're actually going to get rid of her...

[Klenotka]

I think the teamdynamics will get better, I mean, look at Pegasus Project. I like Carter, I like McKay, and I love every moment those two shared.


If S4 should be like Pegasus Project, I quit watching. They made him act like trained ape around her and she made an idiot from him. They totally screwed in writing him in this episode. I prefer to see more Rodney/his team scenes than with perfect blonde.
So, no, I am not looking forward to it. I am trying to see the positive things that Joe Mallozzi mentioned and which, I hope, are true. And I have to hope they won´t screw up.
I never liked Weir particulary, so I think I will survive her leaving but only in a moment if Carter doesn´t take her place.
I only don´t understand why does Amanda have to be in Credits? David Nykl would deserve more.
I don´t mind Carter in SG1, or better, not too much. 10 years is long time and watching someone for 10 years in one show is enough IMO.

[Lobelia_Overhill]

I think Rodney has changed over the 3 seasons of SGA, he's not the same obnoxious geek we saw in SG-1, he's still obnoxious just not the same obnoxious... so I don't think the arrival of Sam is going to affect him that badly

[huntress]

I am not but hey I am not going to watch anyway anymore and the reason for Carter coming and Weir leaving is one of the major reasons why I am not going to watch anymore.
I am exepcting the same vibes we already got from "Pegasus Project" and haughty know it all Samantha Carter insetad warm and caring Elizabeth Weir is not an improvement.

[chocdoc]

I'm very much looking forward to Carter coming to Atlantis. I think she will add nicely to the show, given her scientific and military skills.

I'm not looking forward to Weir being in a reduced role. I think the writers have failed Weir and instead of reducing her role, they should fix it and make her more prominent than in the past. Also, I was really looking forward to Sam/Weir interaction (I liked them in New Order). I hope we get to see them together.

[BeckettRulez]

I'm not really looking forward to sam coming and Elizabeth going. I liked how things were in Atlantis before SUNDAY!
I don't hate Sam but I would prefer if she would not stay on Atlantis at all.

[carterrocks]

Bah! They turn him into an idiot when she's around. I hate it.

Did you ever think he becomes an idoit because he is?


I think atlantis is fine as it is and im looking forward to seeing more of the new doctor shes hot, i think carter will ruin it and think shes better than mckay which she aint so no, but i dont like weir so....

Memba redemption? McKay admitted she was better than him, shes an Artist and his only critical because his jealous, anybody?


I am not but hey I am not going to watch anyway anymore and the reason for Carter coming and Weir leaving is one of the major reasons why I am not going to watch anymore.
I am exepcting the same vibes we already got from "Pegasus Project" and haughty know it all Samantha Carter insetad warm and caring Elizabeth Weir is not an improvement.

<snip>

[ReganX]

I'm looking forward to season 4, not because Carter is coming to Atlantis though. I'm pleased about Weir, but I'mnot convinced that they're actually going to get rid of her...

I doubt it. For one thing, they only have AT on contract for this year. If they get rid of Weir altogether, and then lose Sam at the end of the season, they're in trouble when Season Five rolls around.

[ReganX]

I don´t know, why to put AT into Credits, when she will be there only one year. They make mess in cast bc of her and then...she leaves. And if she is in Credits, so why her? If she will have only her ship so she should be in same position as Caldwell. Why isn´t he in Credits? Why not David Nykl like Zelenka?

Because TPTB feel that she will playing a big enough role to merit a place in the opening credits?

It won't be the first time somebody has been in the credits only a year - Corin Nemec, Rainbow Sun Franks and Claudia Black leap to mind so I don't see how AT will mess up the credits.

Chances are, they'll slot her either in the second spot or second from the end - ie. "with Amanda Tapping as Colonel Carter / and David Hewlett as Dr McKay" or similar - so come Season Five, if AT had second spot, they put TH back in the credits in second spot or if, for whatever reason, she doesn't come back, they move everyone else up a spot. If she's second from the end, they remove her.


AT is more as "support role", Joe M said. She should help do DH with technobabbles? It was part of Zelenka´s role so far. Does it mean we won´t see him too much next year? What an improvement is that for Carter? She will be same Carter like in 10 YEARS in SG1. With big difference she will have her own ship now.
Do you see my problem?

Support role is a loose enough term. If, for example, JF/Sheppard is the lead, then one could argue that all other characters have a support role. One could argue that Hammond's role was a support role.

At this point, support role could mean almost anything and we can only speculate.

[Rootortoise]

Magic 8-ball says: Not me.
ditto! ive said it several times so i wont say too much but i really hate carter and shes the only reason im worried about season 4....i liked weir, especially her chemistry with shep and mckay (who has better chemistry with her over sam any day imo).

im still excited about season 4 but i wish the cast changes hadnt happened, especially sam coming over.

[Gate Geek]

I'm not looking forward to Carter coming over to Atlantis. I saw her fro 10 years on Sg1. I would just like my time watching Atlantis well...be about the Atlantis characters..not resurrected Sg1 characters, no matter how 'recurring' the role.

I'm not looking forward to Weir having a reduced role either. She's been a part of Atlantis and I did like her, even though she was never really given a lot to sink her teeth into. It's going to be hard seeing her being 'replaced' or reduced. Even though its been said repeatedly it has nothing to do with Carter coming over.

[bluealien]

Never ever warmed to Weir's character and the terrible inconsitant writing for her didnt help. She was the most dissappointing character on the show for me, but I don't know how Carter will fit in either. Loved Sam in the early years of SG1 but got a bit tired of her as the years went on.

Hopefully she will peak my interest again on Atlantis.

[TheCaptain]

I guess I've come to like Weir a little more as Atlantis has progressed, as my tolerance for her has risen from 'absolutely despise' to 'accept though find sometimes infuriating' :p

There's wince-worthy instances where I've wondered on her sanity, but by the by these have fallen back a bit and I see that Weir has become a more intriguing character in the show. Though of late, I've seen her being sidelined and maligned, and come to wonder if it's even worth having her character around on the show at all. If they're not going to use her effectively, why have TPTB kept her...? What's their plan?

Perhaps the change will be a good one. I hope so. Carter, I've thoroughly enjoyed on SG-1 but I have to say, I worry about what they're going to do with her on Atlantis.

And, a part of me's sorta hoping she might end up with Jack. It's a little extreme to expect that to happen if Sam goes to Atlantis. It would stretch the term 'long distance relationship' to its limits, methinks :sam: :p :jack:

Capt

[maylet]

I really want to see Carter in Atlantis, but I don't want Weir having a reduced role either.

[MoxManiac]

Weir is my favorite female character in both series, so i certainly don't want to see her go. I think carter will be okay on atlantis.

[Major Tyler]

I'm looking forward to Carter coming, but not necessarily Weir leaving.
I don't think that they are mutually exclusive characters.

[Copernicus]

I'm hoping that with Atlantis as his home turf, McKay will outsmart Carter...repeatedly.

I'm sorry, but while he was antagonizing in 48 Hours, I have been hoping since I saw Redemption (the first episode I ever saw, 48 Hours was a rude awakening when I saw it as a re-run some months later), that he would get to beat Carter at something somewhere along the way. I think this is the perfect opportunity for that.

As for Weir, I liked her character, but I think a recurring role is the right choice. I do not, however, think a recurring and then disappearing role is the right choice.

[Killdeer]

I'm hoping that with Atlantis as his home turf, McKay will outsmart Carter...repeatedly.

I'm sorry, but while he was antagonizing in 48 Hours, I have been hoping since I saw Redemption (the first episode I ever saw, 48 Hours was a rude awakening when I saw it as a re-run some months later), that he would get to beat Carter at something somewhere along the way. I think this is the perfect opportunity for that.

As for Weir, I liked her character, but I think a recurring role is the right choice. I do not, however, think a recurring and then disappearing role is the right choice.

I completely agree. I don't want Carter to look like an idiot, she's not one, but she shouldn't take over Rodney's place as the man with the answers. If he gets reduced to second-rate genius, I'll be a little upset. But we'll see.

I will find Carter being in Atlantis a lot more believable and easier to accept if everything isn't smooth and easy in her transition. It's unrealistic to think that everyone would immediately accept her/love her on Atlantis. I'd rather see some tension for a while, especially if she does indeed take over for Weir, which admittedly we don't know yet. Sheppard shouldn't immediately be her best buddy like Mitchell was, and Rodney shouldn't have to turn into Vala-like comic relief. I see the whole Atlantis team as a little bit territorial (or a lot :) ), and if that was portrayed realistically, with Carter gradually earning their acceptance rather than having it granted automatically, I would be happier.

I think a realistic portrayal of Carter would show her struggling to deal with her new situation, having to make decisions where people are going to die, making decisions that no one agrees with her on, having to deal with not being automatically granted the respect and support she's had from SG1 for many years now. Some serious character conflict here would go a long way to redeeming Carter in my eyes. That includes having her screw up sometimes, and having to deal with the fallout. All of Atlantis has at one point or another. Carter shouldn't be the only one without issues.

Does that make any sense? Again, I should say, the above is totally just my opinion. :D

[SG13-NightOps]

In SG1, Carter does have respect for Rodney's genius. She wont admit it to him though, and I dont blame her. I wouldnt tell him either if he had said to me "I've always had a thing for Dumb Blondes" and meant it.

Examples (and S10 "The Road Not Taken" Spoilers) in Spoiler
Pegasus Project. McKay says "You will need my help." Vala replies something along the lines of "Sam said as much".. sam obviously pipes in "We werent going to tell him that".

the Road not taken - she goes looking for Rodney, who isnt even with the stargate program, and is her ex husband, to help her get home. Sure, that universe carter knew how to build the bridge, but she needed Rodney.


She respects his genius, she just wont tell him because he is/was obnoxious. She never had a problem working with any other scientist (Dr Lee for example).

Sorry, just had to pipe in for Carter. He started it :D :atlantistrio:

[Skydiver]

Let's keep things on topic please, which is whether or not a person is looking forward to carter coming to atlantis and weir leaving. It is NOT the slang off on others thread.

Keep the posts on topic please

[saberhagen83]

A mixed bag. I never really wanted any SG1 characters coming into SGA, but as it's happening I'm kind of glad it's Carter though. But I don't want her to take over Weir's job. If Weir will be recurring that's fine, as long as she isn't taken away permanently. If they can handle it well, then I think it could work out really well. The way SG1 has gone these past 2 years hasn't really done her character any good. Hoping these new surroundings will do her good and give the character/actress a fresh challenge.

[SG13-NightOps]

Ok, I shall now put down *why* I am looking forward to Carter coming.

Under the Spoiler tag because there is Unending Spoilers. People with no intention on watching Unending (due to not watching SG1, not because they dont want to see it UnEnd) in particular are invited to read.


I dont see Carter popping up as some major horrible conspiracy. They planned something with Weir - shiny nice. They then needed someone from SG1. It was not specifically said that these two decisions were related. Now, why they would need someone from SG1? Well, I see lots of "Atlantis needs new tech, needs something they can use, etc etc".

That IS my theory on why she is coming. To help integrate the shiny new Asgard technology into Atlantis to work with Lantean systems. Obviously, as they said, it didnt *have* to be carter, they do after all have Rodney. Amanda was asked and said yes, and so it became Carter. Although as I am sure we are all aware, there is no unascended, un-soon-to-be-dying being in the entire Stargate universe with universal understanding of both Asgard and Lantean technology. So its not exactly going to be a *quick* process. Sure the Asgard could do it all to one ship in a whole 5 minutes, but they are kinda super smart (not smart enough clearly, but way smarter than we are). However her further involvement in episodes may very well be because they need first strikes, or as of yet, uninstalled in Atlantis tech in an episode and Carter in her full of Asgard Technology ship will have to go over to wherever.

Then, when its done, she will take off again and become part of the ever benevolent fifth race the Tau'ri and be too busy helping other people in Milky way. This leaves the Benevolent Fifth Race - new Lanteans, the Atlantis expedition to do their benevolent best in the Pegasus Galaxy having just as much as the SGC does. And this will be an Order from the IOA to do all in their power to protect the address of earth from the life sucking wraith. (Since the Asurans wont be a problem because they now have PWARW's without needing the science geeks at 51.)

The reason that it will be *someone* is because they will need to stay with the ship, rather than just leave it at Atlantis for Rodney to pick at and it possibly get taken by the wraith. Plus given Weir's over protection of Atlantis, they want someone who can make the hard *Beam them up, blow up atlantis and lets leave* order should they deem the situation unwinnable.

I guess even if this theory doesnt pan (even though after 10 years I am getting pretty good at reading the pseudo clues tptb put in) - then there will be some other perfectly good, non conspiracy style explaination that would explain *why* TPTB appear to be utterly unaffected by the whole "Save Weir and Carson" campaigns.

[suse]

Bah! They turn him into an idiot when she's around. I hate it.


Bah! He's an idiot all the time. He doesn't need her help.

I found him funny in S1. Now he's Rodney one-note. He might get character growth during an episode but then the reset button is hit and Bam! back to Whingy!Rodney.

I'm looking forward to Carter going to Atlantis. As long as it's done well. Hopefully they use her to help develop other characters and don't just pair her with Rodney. She could be a great catalyst.

Weir - Meh. I'm not *glad* to see her leave but I also don't really care to have her stay. She's never clicked for me. I was more disturbed when Ford was written out.

I'd really rather they'd have kept Carson. *Him* I liked

suse

[BC - 303]

lets get some prespective here, she (weir) got burned by a huge lazer!
even in stargate world thats going to need recovery time and a step back from active duty for a while.

[Killdeer]

Bah! He's an idiot all the time. He doesn't need her help.

I like Rodney. In spite of my initial reservations when I heard he was going to be part of the spinoff, over the course of three seasons he's turned out to be one of my favorite characters. The only time I don't like him now is, sadly, when he's with Carter. That's one reason why the thought of her coming over full-time is a little discouraging. We'll see how it goes though.

[the dancer of spaz]

I'm looking forward to having Sam on Atlantis but not to Weir leaving.

I hope to see lots of them both next season.

That's where I stand as well. :)

And I'm glad that JM has clarified (on multiple occasions) that it wasn't an either/or situation.

[Trialia]

I'm looking forward to neither, and that's why I've stopped watching the show, so that I don't have to see it. Simply put.

[Mitchell82]

lets get some prespective here, she (weir) got burned by a huge lazer!
even in stargate world thats going to need recovery time and a step back from active duty for a while.

Very true. I do like her and don't want to see her leave but she is by far my favorite character. Only one thing will stop me from watching, the end of SGA, or if they write off Sheppard,Ronon,Teyla an mckay.

[carterrocks]

In SG1, Carter does have respect for Rodney's genius. She wont admit it to him though, and I dont blame her. I wouldnt tell him either if he had said to me "I've always had a thing for Dumb Blondes" and meant it.

Examples (and S10 "The Road Not Taken" Spoilers) in Spoiler
Pegasus Project. McKay says "You will need my help." Vala replies something along the lines of "Sam said as much".. sam obviously pipes in "We werent going to tell him that".

the Road not taken - she goes looking for Rodney, who isnt even with the stargate program, and is her ex husband, to help her get home. Sure, that universe carter knew how to build the bridge, but she needed Rodney.


She respects his genius, she just wont tell him because he is/was obnoxious. She never had a problem working with any other scientist (Dr Lee for example).

Sorry, just had to pipe in for Carter. He started it :D :atlantistrio:

Actually i dont think sam recognises his genius as she is in fact smarter than him which mckay recognises in redemption....sorry for going off topic

[jenks]

Actually i dont think sam recognises his genius as she is in fact smarter than him which mckay recognises in redemption....sorry for going off topic

And yet she needs his help in Pegasus Project...

[Defiant]

If Weir is leaving then great I don't think she really added anything to the show myself

[SG13-NightOps]

I agree 100 percent. It's like a slap in the face for those who've been Atlantis fans from day one. Getting rid of Beckett and Weir is like saying they don't need us, they can do fine with the Sam fans instead.

I won't watch with Carter in 14 episodes and Elizabeth in next to none (from the way it sounds, anyway)

I am not feeling face slapped...

[Celcool]

I am not feeling face slapped...
Maybe not you but a lot of people do, even folks who haven't been a fan from the very start.

[Falcon Horus]

I am not feeling face slapped...

Because you don't mind the changes. Alyssa does.

[Ripple in Space]

I am! Since I like Carter. I don't like Weir that much, she dóes make bad decisions in my opinion. Ultimately Caldwell would be a great leader I think, but since he's commanding the Daedalus..

I think the teamdynamics will get better, I mean, look at Pegasus Project. I like Carter, I like McKay, and I love every moment those two shared.

Coming? YES!
Staying? nope.

I like Carter far better than Wier, since TPTB ruined her character by giving her a schoolgirl crush on Shepp, and making her the most inconsistent character EVER. But, SG-1 stars shouldn't migrate over to Atlantis. I love guest spots, but 14 eps per season is excessive.

[SG13-NightOps]

Because you don't mind the changes. Alyssa does.

Oddly, I think thats obvious enough for even naive little me me to tell.
However Alyssa phrased her paragraph as though she was speaking for all fans of Atlantis from Day 1 and this is only being done for Sam Carter only fans.

As an Atlantis fan from day one, "I am not feeling face slapped" was a far more polite way of saying that not every Atlantis fan from the beginning hates it than "Speak for yourself", dont you agree?

and I am not feeling face slapped because I am not convinced she is "leaving".

[Falcon Horus]

and I am not feeling face slapped because I am not convinced she is "leaving".

And I'm not convinced she's "staying". And yes, I feel betrayed .

[Dr Weir]

Looking Foward to Carter leaving cus i hate crossovers and Elizabeth Coming back!
But will that happen? If it does it'll be worse than the blur of season 7 of SG1 (although it was because Michael chose to leave). But I've had enough. I'm no longer the die hard fan of SG I used to be (which got me through season 7). TPTB can't just mess the show around just for ratings and expect fans to watch. It's isn't working and wasn't SG1 with Carter getting low ratings? This and Beckitt's pointless death done in the most stupid way were the last straw!

[the dancer of spaz]

I agree 100 percent. It's like a slap in the face for those who've been Atlantis fans from day one. Getting rid of Beckett and Weir is like saying they don't need us, they can do fine with the Sam fans instead.

Umm... Hello? Whoo hoo! I've been a fan of Atlantis since Day One. I've seen every episode, I've enjoyed the cast dynamics, I love the actors and - wonder of wonders - I'm a Sam fan.

I'm really sick of this deliberate attempt on some posters' parts to marginalize all Sam fans as people who are only joining Atlantis because Sam's coming on board. I've given Atlantis a go since the beginning, and along the way I've had honest criticisms. But I can honestly say that I would definitely watch S4 of Atlantis, whether Sam was coming on board or not, simply because I like the show. I like the people on it.

It's not perfect, never has been. But then again, neither was/is SG-1.


I'm amazed how willing people are to accept his word for it. Seriously. I work in the industry. I can tell you mutliple stories similar to this, none of which were the way management made it look.

I'm amazed how many people in this fandom continue to claim that they work in the industry when employing their logic in matters like this. As if the "I work in the industry" card suddenly gives them omniscient powers or something. We're only as knowledgeable as our experience, and trying to predict the absolute truth of a situation to which we have no connection is pointless.

I'm a cynic by nature, so I'm of course weary of his statements as well. I'll be honest - if it weren't the case, he probably would've said the same thing. But, seeing as how I'm so far removed from the situation (and rightly so), I can only take TPTB at their word if I so choose. It's my right, and it doesn't suddenly dull my senses or lower my IQ for doing so.


Eg, one guy I used to work with was made redundant. TPTB wanted it to look like it was his decision so people wouldn't get upset about it. They told everyone he wanted to travel the world and that was why he was leaving.

Yes, well the funny thing about this situation is, they've made Weir's role on Atlantis redundant from the beginning. And I don't mean her interpersonal relationships, or her character arc, because I've enjoyed watching her develop over the past three years. No, I mean her very role as the base's commander. As has been said on multiple occasions, Weir's power and authority ended, and was essentially made impotent, whenever Sheppard or McKay decided that they wanted to do what they wanted to do.

Shep and McKay essentially own that base, and have free reign whether Weir approves of it or not. Period.

Add that problem to the fact that she has no logical reason to join them on missions off-world, and you've got a distinctly Hammond-esque character, only without the authority to shoot either of the lead males down when she deems it appropriate.


Until then, everything I see from TPTB in regard to this just makes me want to roll my eyes. JM won't even answer any questions about her on his blog. I don't think they expected people to be as pissed off as they are, and I don't think they realised the size of Torri's fanbase.

I think they're more than aware of how popular Torri is. And if they weren't, then it just shows how out of touch they truly are with the fanbase as a whole. And they'll reap the benefits of that particular misstep accordingly.

Not to be rude, but if you've worked in the business, shouldn't you be aware - and supportive - of the fact that Mallozzi can't, and shouldn't, answer questions pertaining to Torri's contract, or the exact reasons behind her leaving? I mean, not everything has to be a conspiracy. It could just be basic, personal and professional respect for her welfare. Not to mention the fact that the back half of S3 hasn't even started in the US yet.

I can just imagine the spears that would've been thrown had JM made the unprofessional decision to tell it like it is (as many believe it to be, anyone) on his blog. Torri's ardent fans would've rightfully freaked out at his insensitivity.

[Copernicus]

I've been watching from the beginning, but I don't particularly feel betrayed. Atlantis is a story, and I feel for the most part it's a good one. As such, the deciding factor for me will be whether or not the writers continue to tell good stories.

At the same time, I can appreciate that some people feel that the story cannot be good without Beckett or without Weir. To a certain extent, I feel the same way about McKay and Sheppard. However, that said, if the existence of McKay and Sheppard stopped being conducive to good storytelling I would understand if they were removed.

We're always free to debate what constitutes good storytelling. After all, I love those "Bad Writing" signatures that were going around for a while, but in the end I won't feel betrayed one way or the other if the writers and the other powers that be remove characters because they honestly feel that they get in the way of that good storytelling. I will feel betrayed if the powers that be give up trying to tell good stories, but I do not think we have reached that point, nor do I feel that the removal of Beckett and reduction of Weir are indicative of a trend in that direction.

[vaberella]

Oddly, I think thats obvious enough for even naive little me me to tell.
However Alyssa phrased her paragraph as though she was speaking for all fans of Atlantis from Day 1 and this is only being done for Sam Carter only fans.

As an Atlantis fan from day one, "I am not feeling face slapped" was a far more polite way of saying that not every Atlantis fan from the beginning hates it than "Speak for yourself", dont you agree?

and I am not feeling face slapped because I am not convinced she is "leaving".

I agree with everything you've said. I'm starting to get used to the sweeping generlizations some claim about the fandom, even though it annoys the hell out of me.

I'm not all that glad about Carter--although I can see why she's on the show. I can see some of the beneficial storylines that will come from her inception. I also think her characters resume will be indispensible in SGA. That being said, I am worried though about when she's written with McKay; but added to that I did see a marked difference in the writing style of her and McKay in MMM compared to other eps they've shared. I liked MMM. If Carter is pushed to leader of the Ex as people are rampantly speculating, I'll wait and see and then make a decision.

Now as for Weir, she's not "going" anywhere. It's not like she's dead, it's not like the character has been elminated off the show, so I don't getmuch of this talk like she's officially gone. She's down to recurring, and I have no problem with that---I don't know the many ways in which to go with the "President" role, it's always the background aid to the President who were always far more interesting. If she were leaving I'd be a bit more resigned, but as she's not... Better the devil you know, than the devil you don't----if you get my drift. Her leadership has been lack luster for me, but this could be what the character needs to really be brought back with some great decision making underneath her belt.

Overall, I'm good with the changes. I loved Ford and he was taken out, I actually think that was a great decision on TPTB's part and feel that Ronon was a fantastic add on. That's not to say I don't want Ford back, but I would like to see Ford in a very slow recurring, as Kolya was and Michael will be. So I loved Ford in S2, I'd have loved to see that in S3, but I can wait for that in S4, if it happens. My point being, if Ronon bears any weight on positive changes, which no one was sure about for S2. Then I have no problems with the addition of Carter and the recurring status of the Weir character.

[Ltcolshepjumper]

I wouldn't look forward to any cast member leaving. If she's not leaving then athe question's obviously become "Who's looking forward to Carter coming to Atlantis and who would look forward to Weir leaving". Personally, I have a feeling she might not be leaving since TPTB are almost finished with the scripts for the first half. However, I have a feeling she's not going to have nearly as big a role in Season Four.

[SG13-NightOps]

I agree with everything you've said. I'm starting to get used to the sweeping generlizations some claim about the fandom, even though it annoys the hell out of me.

I'm not all that glad about Carter--although I can see why she's on the show. I can see some of the beneficial storylines that will come from her inception. I also think her characters resume will be indispensible in SGA. That being said, I am worried though about when she's written with McKay; but added to that I did see a marked difference in the writing style of her and McKay in MMM compared to other eps they've shared. I liked MMM. If Carter is pushed to leader of the Ex as people are rampantly speculating, I'll wait and see and then make a decision.

Now as for Weir, she's not "going" anywhere. It's not like she's dead, it's not like the character has been elminated off the show, so I don't getmuch of this talk like she's officially gone. She's down to recurring, and I have no problem with that---I don't know the many ways in which to go with the "President" role, it's always the background aid to the President who were always far more interesting. If she were leaving I'd be a bit more resigned, but as she's not... Better the devil you know, than the devil you don't----if you get my drift. Her leadership has been lack luster for me, but this could be what the character needs to really be brought back with some great decision making underneath her belt.

Overall, I'm good with the changes. I loved Ford and he was taken out, I actually think that was a great decision on TPTB's part and feel that Ronon was a fantastic add on. That's not to say I don't want Ford back, but I would like to see Ford in a very slow recurring, as Kolya was and Michael will be. So I loved Ford in S2, I'd have loved to see that in S3, but I can wait for that in S4, if it happens. My point being, if Ronon bears any weight on positive changes, which no one was sure about for S2. Then I have no problems with the addition of Carter and the recurring status of the Weir character.

I think I phrased my last sentence incorrectly actually. (Well teach me to make posts at 4am before I have had my coffee). I wont feel face slapped if she does leave either. I am not convinced she will, but I wont be flying any flags if she does. Nothing wrong with Weir or anything like that. I just am able to accept that things change.

Change is as good as a holiday they say, so embrace the change and see if I can taste some sunshine :D

[Ace]

I'm hoping to see a more militarized version of Atlantis... none of the characters currently on Atlantis have that military feel. Like they have been trained and have made a career out of the military... except for maybe Caldwell.

With Carter coming aboard, I'm looking forward to that as I know she can pull it off alot better than Sheppard. I am looking forward to seeing what they do with Weir's character though... but it's about time Atlantis had more a militarized role.

Ace

[Falcon Horus]

I'm hoping to see a more militarized version of Atlantis... none of the characters currently on Atlantis have that military feel. Like they have been trained and have made a career out of the military... except for maybe Caldwell.

Except, that's not what Atlantis is all about... (at least that's what I thought) There's a small contingent of military personal, but they are outnumbered by the scientists. By now I'm not so sure anymore with all the Daedalus-flights and new people coming in. But Atlantis isn't about the military...

That would be another change I wouldn't be able to live with. I liked the semi-non-military feel it had/has. If that's going to change they might as well rename Atlantis and call it SG(A)1 (since that was all about the airforce and other parts of the military).

[SG13-NightOps]

If that's going to change they might as well rename Atlantis and call it SG(A)1 (since that was all about the airforce and other parts of the military).

Actually I thought it was all about 4 people going through a gate to alien planets and trying to find alien tech to help protect earth from aliens who liked to pretend to be Egyptian/Grecian/Mayan/Etc Gods.

The problem here is, SGA now has 2 super powerful enemies, both hell bent on getting to Earth, and Atlantis is the first line of Defence.

Those Scientists are not going to know the first thing about Point and Shoot. Rodney and his dropped magazine should be a shining beacon of how utterly useless the science contingent will be in a fire fight.

There must be a substantial military presence. Remove said presence and instead of *Life sucking aliens kill gi joe guys who fight them while the scientists come up with a brilliant plan* we would have *Life sucking aliens kill scientist guys while they still try and figure out which end of their knife to put the bullets in*

As was said between Woolsey and Weir. You can always trust the threat of life sucking aliens to restore the IOA's faith in the military.
Now we have life sucking aliens and hand in head aliens. If they dont step up the military presence in Atlantis, then the story would become far too unbelieveable.

[Atlantis1]

I'm hoping to see a more militarized version of Atlantis... none of the characters currently on Atlantis have that military feel. Like they have been trained and have made a career out of the military... except for maybe Caldwell.

With Carter coming aboard, I'm looking forward to that as I know she can pull it off alot better than Sheppard. I am looking forward to seeing what they do with Weir's character though... but it's about time Atlantis had more a militarized role.

Ace

This is one of the biggest things I loved about SGA. It is a civilian expedition. I don't want to see Atlantis militarized. SG-1 was a military type show and I didn't like it nearly as much as SGA.

I don't like Carter coming to Atlantis but they are putting her there. I want Weir to remain the leader. I hope the fact that she is not in many of the shows is just temporary.

[Ace]

Except, that's not what Atlantis is all about... (at least that's what I thought) There's a small contingent of military personal, but they are outnumbered by the scientists. By now I'm not so sure anymore with all the Daedalus-flights and new people coming in. But Atlantis isn't about the military...

That would be another change I wouldn't be able to live with. I liked the semi-non-military feel it had/has. If that's going to change they might as well rename Atlantis and call it SG(A)1 (since that was all about the airforce and other parts of the military).

Ohh I understand that isn't what Atlantis is about... and I'm not saying that the military should take complete control. Obviously they couldn't as they need scientists like McKay and Zelenka. I really enjoyed Season 1 and felt it had a much more "military influence" perhaps because we had characters like Lt. Ford, Sgt. Bates/Stakehouse, that were constantly around and made it seemed like the military was there.

Especially Bates, I loved that guy! Too bad they got rid of him... I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm looking forward to Carter coming because she will bring a professional military mindset. To me, Sheppard doesn't seem like he is apart of the military.

He seems like he is a regular undisciplined guy who can fly helicopters and can shoot a gun. He is no more military to me than the news helicopter guys that fly for NBC, CNN... etc.

That's all I'm saying is I'm looking forward to more professional military members to be brought to the expedition.


This is one of the biggest things I loved about SGA. It is a civilian expedition. I don't want to see Atlantis militarized. SG-1 was a military type show and I didn't like it nearly as much as SGA.

I don't like Carter coming to Atlantis but they are putting her there. I want Weir to remain the leader. I hope the fact that she is not in many of the shows is just temporary.

I can respect that... I'm a huge military buff/historian so I love watching anything about the military. I'm a big History & Military channel guy... and what I liked about SG-1 and actually got me watching in the first place was the fact that they had actual Air Force advisors.

The show was being done as realistically as possible, whereas Atlantis is not. Don't get me started on beret wearing Marines, or Sheppard's hair and his utter lack of ability to render a proper salute.

Like I said earlier... I'm just happy that Amanda Tapping is coming aboard as she acts and talks alot like a certain female Lt. Colonel that is in the Air Force I know.

I have nothing against Weir... and I hope she gets a better story arc than Lt. Ford received.

Ace

[suse]

Except, that's not what Atlantis is all about... (at least that's what I thought) There's a small contingent of military personal, but they are outnumbered by the scientists. By now I'm not so sure anymore with all the Daedalus-flights and new people coming in. But Atlantis isn't about the military...

That would be another change I wouldn't be able to live with. I liked the semi-non-military feel it had/has. If that's going to change they might as well rename Atlantis and call it SG(A)1 (since that was all about the airforce and other parts of the military).


Then why is the leading character (leading man) of the show in the military?

To be honest when Atlantis spun off I rather thought Weir would be series lead. After all she was the one that was pumped up on SG-1. Yet in the end TPTB chose to make the lead character one that is in the military.

Goodness know they could have had a ton of stories about Atlantis alone, without many missions to other planets at all. Why? I rather thought SG(A)-1 was a very appropriate name. Barring the eps that take place on Atlantis that's what it *is*.

Just because Sam is in the AF it *does not* necessarily mean that the show will be all about the AF and it's rules. But *if* she is going to lead Atlantis Shep will *have* to follow her orders - because they will *not* be recommendations he can choose to willy-nilly ignore. Yet she is also a scientist who can understand how important that side of the expedition is (unlike Caldwell). In other words (assuming <<---always dangerous she will be the leader) a good synthesis of scientist/soldier who has the flexibility and know-how to lead both segments of a population at ground zero of a war zone.

Weir is a figure-head for the IOC. Not much more. She could have been but she wasn't developed that way. They gave her command then removed her claws and teeth.

suse

[Mitchell82]

I agree with everything you've said. I'm starting to get used to the sweeping generlizations some claim about the fandom, even though it annoys the hell out of me.

I'm not all that glad about Carter--although I can see why she's on the show. I can see some of the beneficial storylines that will come from her inception. I also think her characters resume will be indispensible in SGA. That being said, I am worried though about when she's written with McKay; but added to that I did see a marked difference in the writing style of her and McKay in MMM compared to other eps they've shared. I liked MMM. If Carter is pushed to leader of the Ex as people are rampantly speculating, I'll wait and see and then make a decision.

Now as for Weir, she's not "going" anywhere. It's not like she's dead, it's not like the character has been elminated off the show, so I don't getmuch of this talk like she's officially gone. She's down to recurring, and I have no problem with that---I don't know the many ways in which to go with the "President" role, it's always the background aid to the President who were always far more interesting. If she were leaving I'd be a bit more resigned, but as she's not... Better the devil you know, than the devil you don't----if you get my drift. Her leadership has been lack luster for me, but this could be what the character needs to really be brought back with some great decision making underneath her belt.

Overall, I'm good with the changes. I loved Ford and he was taken out, I actually think that was a great decision on TPTB's part and feel that Ronon was a fantastic add on. That's not to say I don't want Ford back, but I would like to see Ford in a very slow recurring, as Kolya was and Michael will be. So I loved Ford in S2, I'd have loved to see that in S3, but I can wait for that in S4, if it happens. My point being, if Ronon bears any weight on positive changes, which no one was sure about for S2. Then I have no problems with the addition of Carter and the recurring status of the Weir character.

I mostly agree. What I get sick of is the constant sam bashing and the bashing of us who like sam. I have been a fan from the begining and find it very insulting when others say "fans from the begining are pissed" so to speak. I agree everyone has their own opinion but some have gone overboard IMO.

[nowvoyager908]

This is one of the biggest things I loved about SGA. It is a civilian expedition. I don't want to see Atlantis militarized. SG-1 was a military type show and I didn't like it nearly as much as SGA.

I don't like Carter coming to Atlantis but they are putting her there. I want Weir to remain the leader. I hope the fact that she is not in many of the shows is just temporary.


ITA. I hate the idea of SGA becoming more militarized. What drew me to the show to begin with was the expedition of scientists and computer geeks converging on the city and trying to discover and make sense of what the Ancients left behind.

I love that Sheppard is a loose cannon, but smarter in that common-sense, way-of-the-world manner that makes for a great natural leader whose men (and women) would follow him to death, not because of duty, but because of loyalty. . . which is not the same thing.

I love that Weir is not perfect; that like any leader, she has to make tough choices which sometimes are at odds with her instinct and training. She has the strength to stand up to anyone when she believes she's right; but she's not so willful that she won't listen to opposing views and compromise if necessary. She is flawed and makes mistakes and that makes her so much more real.

These two are ying and yang that hold Atlantis, the city and the show, together.

I could go on, but if this dynamic changes, and I believe Carter's appearance will do just that, SGA will be a very different show. And what made it fun to watch in the beginning may be lost in the process.

[Killdeer]

what I liked about SG-1 and actually got me watching in the first place was the fact that they had actual Air Force advisors.

The show was being done as realistically as possible, whereas Atlantis is not. Don't get me started on beret wearing Marines

I always thought that looked weird. :D But I'm not in the know, so I let it pass. Do you really think SG1 was that realistic in the later seasons though? I know after my brother and I watched "Insiders", he started expressing serious doubts about the Air Force still advising on the show. I was fairly certain they still were, but I had to admit he had a point. Incidentally, "Insiders" was also the episode to turn my brother into an ex-Stargate fan. He, like you, likes military shows, and that was how I got him into the show with the early seasons. He'd started expressing some disatisfaction as early as "Gemini", but "Insiders" was the final straw for him. I stuck it out to the end, and I thought there were some good episodes after that, but I understood where he was coming from.

Just interested in your opinion.

[suse]

I always thought that looked weird. :D But I'm not in the know, so I let it pass. Do you really think SG1 was that realistic in the later seasons though? I know after my brother and I watched "Insiders", he started expressing serious doubts about the Air Force still advising on the show. I was fairly certain they still were, but I had to admit he had a point. Incidentally, "Insiders" was also the episode to turn my brother into an ex-Stargate fan. He, like you, likes military shows, and that was how I got him into the show with the early seasons. He'd started expressing some disatisfaction as early as "Gemini", but "Insiders" was the final straw for him. I stuck it out to the end, and I thought there were some good episodes after that, but I understood where he was coming from.

Just interested in your opinion.

They had an advisor at least thru episode 200. He was in the wedding scene as an extra and was due to retire soon after that. I'm not sure how much advising he was really doing as he was living in Virginia - the *south-eastern* coast of the USA. :S I might be wrong about his amount of input though. By all reports the advisor they had several years ago (before *he* retired) kicked up was more of a stink than this guy did when they broke witht AF protocal.

I'm looking forward to Carter coming to Atlantis. I'm hoping she shakes up the dynamic a bit. The writers weem to be in a bit of a rut, focusing on certain characters all the time.

I liken SGA to Voyager. Great actors, good backstory. But with a tendency to focus on a few characters - to the detriment of the rest. Unfortunately the story quality has been as up and down as Voyager also. My fingers are crossed that "only" producing 20 eps this year will make a difference.

suse

[Ace]

I always thought that looked weird. :D But I'm not in the know, so I let it pass. Do you really think SG1 was that realistic in the later seasons though? I know after my brother and I watched "Insiders", he started expressing serious doubts about the Air Force still advising on the show. I was fairly certain they still were, but I had to admit he had a point. Incidentally, "Insiders" was also the episode to turn my brother into an ex-Stargate fan. He, like you, likes military shows, and that was how I got him into the show with the early seasons. He'd started expressing some disatisfaction as early as "Gemini", but "Insiders" was the final straw for him. I stuck it out to the end, and I thought there were some good episodes after that, but I understood where he was coming from.

Just interested in your opinion.

What exactly about Insiders make your brother an ex-stargate fan? I'm trying to recall the episode...

As for the show in general there have always been mistakes... the advisors are not infalliable, they aren't there to check uniforms everyday. So yes, at some points you have to realize it is just a show and they are going to get things wrong.

But overall, the military aspect and feel of the show has been the best I've ever seen. I'd be hardpressed to think of any other show that was this accurate...

But I'm kinda interested in what it was in Insiders that made your brother have a change of heart?

Ace

[Killdeer]

What exactly about Insiders make your brother an ex-stargate fan? I'm trying to recall the episode...

As for the show in general there have always been mistakes... the advisors are not infalliable, they aren't there to check uniforms everyday. So yes, at some points you have to realize it is just a show and they are going to get things wrong.

But overall, the military aspect and feel of the show has been the best I've ever seen. I'd be hardpressed to think of any other show that was this accurate...

But I'm kinda interested in what it was in Insiders that made your brother have a change of heart?

Ace

As I said, he'd been expressing some dissatisfaction as early as Season 8, mainly dealing with the fact that after all these years, the team was still making the same mistakes, trusting the wrong people, giving away information to the enemy, getting tricked when they should know better. Things that would have been forgivable in early seasons are not so much so after 8-10 years at war.

With "Insiders", he was particularly upset that Carter gave away information and was not hauled up on charges for it. He ranted about that for awhile, that in real life no one in the military, no matter who you are or what the situation, would be able to get away with handing out top secret information to the enemy without being court martialed. That was the particular sticking point I think. He was expecting that Carter had given Ba'al corrupted information, and when he found out she gave him the real thing...well, that really didn't go over well. I already knew that was going to happen because of reading reviews, but he didn't see it coming. There was also the security guard who let Agent Barrett into Ba'al's cell without calling up and verifying clearance or even relieving him of his weapon. Etc etc.... Anyway, it was the last straw for him.

I don't necessarily want to start an argument here on this thread about the appropriateness of Carter's actions in that episode. I know there was a lot of debate when the episode aired, but....it's probably off topic here. I bring it up here just to answer your question. Does that help?

[Ace]

As I said, he'd been expressing some dissatisfaction as early as Season 8, mainly dealing with the fact that after all these years, the team was still making the same mistakes, trusting the wrong people, giving away information to the enemy, getting tricked when they should know better. Things that would have been forgivable in early seasons are not so much so after 8-10 years at war.

With "Insiders", he was particularly upset that Carter gave away information and was not hauled up on charges for it. He ranted about that for awhile, that in real life no one in the military, no matter who you are or what the situation, would be able to get away with handing out top secret information to the enemy without being court martialed. That was the particular sticking point I think. He was expecting that Carter had given Ba'al corrupted information, and when he found out she gave him the real thing...well, that really didn't go over well. I already knew that was going to happen because of reading reviews, but he didn't see it coming. There was also the security guard who let Agent Barrett into Ba'al's cell without calling up and verifying clearance or even relieving him of his weapon. Etc etc.... Anyway, it was the last straw for him.

I don't necessarily want to start an argument here on this thread about the appropriateness of Carter's actions in that episode. I know there was a lot of debate when the episode aired, but....it's probably off topic here. I bring it up here just to answer your question. Does that help?

Ahh... ok I see! No I would probably agree... however if you really want to get deep into. Carter never should have had access to the system to give Ba'al any information.

The first thing General Landry should have done was lock her access codes out of the system, as she was now in enemy hands. They do the same thing for Iris codes.

While Carter probably could have gotten around that... it probably would have bought the team enough time to take the floor back. But yeah... I agree I was surprised when she gave Ba'al real information and not a list of soup recipes.

However that was to move the Ba'al plot along, and I'm pretty sure the Air Force advisors don't really have any say in plot. Simply about how a person would approach a situation/how they would say something/how they would look.

I guess it didn't upset me all that much for those reasons, and frankly Carter had done it before one season earlier to RepliCarter, so it was keeping within character. :D

But I can understand where your brother was coming from...

Ace

[Killdeer]

Ahh... ok I see! No I would probably agree... however if you really want to get deep into. Carter never should have had access to the system to give Ba'al any information.

The first thing General Landry should have done was lock her access codes out of the system, as she was now in enemy hands. They do the same thing for Iris codes.

While Carter probably could have gotten around that... it probably would have bought the team enough time to take the floor back. But yeah... I agree I was surprised when she gave Ba'al real information and not a list of soup recipes.

Totally agree on all the above points.


However that was to move the Ba'al plot along, and I'm pretty sure the Air Force advisors don't really have any say in plot. Simply about how a person would approach a situation/how they would say something/how they would look.

Maybe so. But detroying your characters' credibility is not a good way to accomplish a plot, in my opinion. :( I've hated it when the writers have done this, in Atlantis and SG1.


I guess it didn't upset me all that much for those reasons, and frankly Carter had done it before one season earlier to RepliCarter, so it was keeping within character. :D

Yeah, well, we probably shouldn't go there. :D I have worlds of issues with "Gemini." But I have a question though. If you feel that what Carter did in those two episodes was in character, I guess I'm a little confused by your support for her being in Atlantis. Not an attack here-it's cool that you're fine with it.... I guess I'm just trying to reconcile the two in my mind. :confused:

[the fifth man]

I'm looking forward to Carter coming to SGA. I can't wait to see how it plays out in the end. As for Weir leaving though, I'm not too anxious to see that. I'll actually really miss her character.

[Ace]

Yeah, well, we probably shouldn't go there. :D I have worlds of issues with "Gemini." But I thought you said you thought Carter acted like professional military? <confused> Sorry - not trying to trip you up here. I'm just not getting the correlation between what Carter did in "Insiders" and "Gemini" being in character for her, and her being strongly military. The two seem to be in conflict in my mind. Which is one reason why I've had some issues with her being Atlantis's leader, if indeed that happens. But it'll all come down to how the writers decide to write her.

Hmmm... let's see if I can explain myself better then! :) What Carter did in Insiders and Gemini was obviously a mistake and she shouldn't have done it. But that doesn't mean that she isn't a professional military officer.

Just because you make mistakes doesn't mean you aren't a professional officer in the Air Force. Just take a look at O'Neill, RDA did a great job especially in the beginning few seasons of establishing that his character was a Special Forces Colonel in the Air Force. However he was constantly insubordinate, defied orders...

I guess what I'm trying to say is that when I watch SG-1; I can see both Carter's and Mitchell's characters as actually being in the military/Air Force. Whereas when I watch Atlantis; I can't possibly see Sheppard in the Air Force. Yet alone a rather high ranking officer in charge of all military personnel.

He doesn't act like he is in the military, he doesn't look like he's in the military. Whereas Carter does... I'm not sure how else to explain it.

I was just trying to express my feeling that with Carter coming to Atlantis that perhaps a more professional military setting could take place. Of course this all depends on what Carter will actually be doing on the show... none of us know for certain.

Though with Carter on the show, I know I can at least expect to appreciate one military character instead of wishing the main character was more military oriented.

If Sheppard were more military in the way he appeared, acted, but kept his humor I would like the show alot more. If Sheppard were to fall ill and somebody like Carter, Mitchell, heck even Lorne were to take his place it would make for a better show in my opinion.

Ace

[Killdeer]

Hmmm... let's see if I can explain myself better then! :) What Carter did in Insiders and Gemini was obviously a mistake and she shouldn't have done it. But that doesn't mean that she isn't a professional military officer.

Just because you make mistakes doesn't mean you aren't a professional officer in the Air Force. Just take a look at O'Neill, RDA did a great job especially in the beginning few seasons of establishing that his character was a Special Forces Colonel in the Air Force. However he was constantly insubordinate, defied orders...

I guess what I'm trying to say is that when I watch SG-1; I can see both Carter's and Mitchell's characters as actually being in the military/Air Force. Whereas when I watch Atlantis; I can't possibly see Sheppard in the Air Force. Yet alone a rather high ranking officer in charge of all military personnel.

He doesn't act like he is in the military, he doesn't look like he's in the military. Whereas Carter does... I'm not sure how else to explain it.

I was just trying to express my feeling that with Carter coming to Atlantis that perhaps a more professional military setting could take place. Of course this all depends on what Carter will actually be doing on the show... none of us know for certain.

Though with Carter on the show, I know I can at least expect to appreciate one military character instead of wishing the main character was more military oriented.

If Sheppard were more military in the way he appeared, acted, but kept his humor I would like the show alot more. If Sheppard were to fall ill and somebody like Carter, Mitchell, heck even Lorne it would make for a better show in my opinion.

Ace

OK - I see what you're saying. I don't see it the same way, :D :D (Hope that's ok!), but I do see your perspective. On my side, I guess I've always seen O'Neill and Sheppard as quite a bit alike, and especially after The Storm/The Eye, I've always kind of had it in my head that Sheppard had been special forces himself. A lot of things about him make more sense that way, in my mind. But I'm not military, and I know it's never been stated on the show, so I'm not insisting that anyone else share my viewpoint. :D For me, Mitchell and Carter are too much the career military officer, following orders, no insubordination, etc, etc. They're the nice guys. O'Neill and Sheppard were/are the rogues, and I like them that way.

That being said, I respect your right to see it a different way! :) Thanks for the discussion.

[Ace]

OK - I see what you're saying. I don't see it the same way, :D :D (Hope that's ok!), but I do see your perspective. On my side, I guess I've always seen O'Neill and Sheppard as quite a bit alike, and especially after The Storm/The Eye, I've always kind of had it in my head that Sheppard had been special forces himself. A lot of things about him make more sense that way, in my mind. But I'm not military, and I know it's never been stated on the show, so I'm not insisting that anyone else share my viewpoint. :D For me, Mitchell and Carter are too much the career military officer, following orders, no insubordination, etc, etc. They're the nice guys. O'Neill and Sheppard were/are the rogues, and I like them that way.

That being said, I respect your right to see it a different way! :) Thanks for the discussion.

Of course it's ok... The reason you like Sheppard just happens to be the reason I don't. LOL But that is what makes Stargate so great in that it applies to many different people, and many different tastes.

Sheppard does act like O'Neill sometimes, however in my mind O'Neill always had a good reason for disobeying orders. Whereas Sheppard disobeys orders just to disobey them... I think he sees himself a special forces kinda guy, who can fly anything, and never do wrong. He likes playing the hero...

Whereas the opposite can be said about O'Neill. As for Carter/Mitchell being the nice guys, I agree with that. They are opinionated, but know the rules exist for a reason. Even O'Neill knew of the importance of the chain of command...

In my opinion, Sheppard doesn't have a clue. He just hasn't convinced me that he is an Air Force Officer. It's hard to see him going through the Academy or 90 days at Officer Training School. In my opinion he would have washed out...

It just stretches reality a bit too far for me... Yeah anyway, great conversation! :D

Ace

[Killdeer]

Of course it's ok... The reason you like Sheppard just happens to be the reason I don't. LOL But that is what makes Stargate so great in that it applies to many different people, and many different tastes.

Sheppard does act like O'Neill sometimes, however in my mind O'Neill always had a good reason for disobeying orders. Whereas Sheppard disobeys orders just to disobey them... I think he sees himself a special forces kinda guy, who can fly anything, and never do wrong. He likes playing the hero...

Whereas the opposite can be said about O'Neill. As for Carter/Mitchell being the nice guys, I agree with that. They are opinionated, but know the rules exist for a reason. Even O'Neill knew of the importance of the chain of command...

In my opinion, Sheppard doesn't have a clue. He just hasn't convinced me that he is an Air Force Officer. It's hard to see him going through the Academy or 90 days at Officer Training School. In my opinion he would have washed out...

It just stretches reality a bit too far for me... Yeah anyway, great conversation! :D

Ace

Wow, you really DON'T like Sheppard do you? <grin> That's ok. We still like you. :D I have some pretty serious issues with Carter myself (probably the only Stargate character I dislike), but hey, like you said, different tastes for different people. Maybe Season four will work out for both of us ;) .

[Ace]

Wow, you really DON'T like Sheppard do you? <grin> Ahh I like him... he's just got a few things that irk me that's all. I guess I just see, how he could be a better character, in my eyes and it wouldn't take much. But oh well... we've got a whole new season to look forward to.

EDIT: I think I just ended that last sentence in a preposition! LOL



hey, like you said, different tastes for different people. Maybe Season four will work out for both of us ;) .

Here's to hoping... :D

Ace

[ElessarUSMC]

Personally I don't think Sheppard acts anything like O'Neill. If you want to see an O'Neill stand-in, take a look at Mitchell. He's 80% RDA and 20% John Crighton. When they realized the dumb jokes and inappropriately lighthearted behavior in the face of peril was TOO much of an obvious O'Neill-copy, they started tossing out every Southern aphorism they could think of. John Crighton in a bottle.

Needless to say, I don't like Mitchell much ;) . But I don't dislike any other character. Even though I just argued that Sam's the wrong person to take over the base, it's not b/c I don't like Sam. It's just because she is :D

I love Sheppard's character btw, and I'm a guy. I'm usually intimidated by smooth-talking, simple-seeming, fly-by-the-seat-of-the-pants behaving, crazy-hair-wearing attractive men but I actually like him. He (Sheppard) seems like he'd be a cool guy to just hang out with.

One thing I will say about Sheppard is that he doesn't strike me as an Air Force officer. That's why at the beginning I thought (and hoped - and now wish) that he was actually a Marine Corps pilot. That's probably because I will be an officer candidate in the Corps myself very soon :D but I also think as a character he stands out more as a Marine than as an Air Force guy. The whole "we dont' leave our people behind" type of tough-guy, espirit-de-corps is a lot more common in the Marine Corps than in the AF. I'll admit it probably takes more brains and a different kind of "play by the rules" dedication to get through the AF Academy than USMC ocs/tbs/flightschool (~2 yrs, no 90 days for the Corps baby), but the skills and abilities Sheppard has seems more like a marine aviator to me.

PLUS, he said he flew the cobra and the osprey, two aircraft the AF DOESN'T fly and the marines DO fly :D but ya know.

[jenks]

Personally I don't think Sheppard acts anything like O'Neill. If you want to see an O'Neill stand-in, take a look at Mitchell. He's 80% RDA and 20% John Crighton. When they realized the dumb jokes and inappropriately lighthearted behavior in the face of peril was TOO much of an obvious O'Neill-copy, they started tossing out every Southern aphorism they could think of. John Crighton in a bottle.


Got to strongy disagree with that, Mitchell is nothing like O'neill and I think he's been purposely made that way. Sheppard on the other hand, imo is just a bad copy of O'neill, he's the one who makes wise cracks in the face of danger, infact the only thing that has made Sheppard any different is that the writers have decided that he is unfomfortable when trying to express himself in some situations. I honestly don't know how anyone could consider Mitchell an O'neill clone, they're totally different imo.

[the dancer of spaz]

IMHO, both Mitchell and Sheppard were created in Jack's image (or RDA's, as it were). That's not to take away from JF or BB's portrayal of the characters, but the wisecracks and joking, I think, were deliberately included in an effort to mimic Jack's persona.

[bluealien]

Got to strongy disagree with that, Mitchell is nothing like O'neill and I think he's been purposely made that way. Sheppard on the other hand, imo is just a bad copy of O'neill, he's the one who makes wise cracks in the face of danger, infact the only thing that has made Sheppard any different is that the writers have decided that he is unfomfortable when trying to express himself in some situations. I honestly don't know how anyone could consider Mitchell an O'neill clone, they're totally different imo.

I see the three of them totally different and never understand the comparisons. Sheppard is nothing like O'Neill IMO. They are both fairly laid back characters but thats where the similarities end for me. As to Sheppard not being military enough - well he gets the job done and seems to have the respect of his men so thats enough for me. I would be happy to have dedicated, loyal and courageous soldier like him protect me any day over some hard nosed military guy who can only spout the rules. John has disobyed orders twice in the space of three years as far as I'm aware. Once in hot zone where I thought he had every right to - but thats a discussion for another day and then in the return, where again I thought he had reason to.

So I don't get why he is accused of disobying orders all the time. O'Neill has disobyed a string of times too - and I don't know why its ok for him to do so just because he thought his reasons were ok but not for Sheppard.

[vaberella]

I mostly agree. What I get sick of is the constant sam bashing and the bashing of us who like sam. I have been a fan from the begining and find it very insulting when others say "fans from the begining are pissed" so to speak. I agree everyone has their own opinion but some have gone overboard IMO.

I totally agree with you. It's not only the Sam bashing with the underlining Amanda Tapping bashing that's at the helm of some of this crap. There is also the Teyla with of course Rachel Luttrell bashing which has peaked up in popularity since JM confirmed that AT was called after the decision was made. It was like a mentality of, "we were sort of talking out of arse, but this other character who is 'boring, dull, and has boobs' is getting more play---let's gte her". Then there's the sweeping generalizations and various other commentaries. Yeah, looking back, there's actually plenty to get peeved about. I'm getting more numbed I think, or really I would like to think. :D




One thing I will say about Sheppard is that he doesn't strike me as an Air Force officer. That's why at the beginning I thought (and hoped - and now wish) that he was actually a Marine Corps pilot. That's probably because I will be an officer candidate in the Corps myself very soon :D but I also think as a character he stands out more as a Marine than as an Air Force guy. The whole "we dont' leave our people behind" type of tough-guy, espirit-de-corps is a lot more common in the Marine Corps than in the AF. I'll admit it probably takes more brains and a different kind of "play by the rules" dedication to get through the AF Academy than USMC ocs/tbs/flightschool (~2 yrs, no 90 days for the Corps baby), but the skills and abilities Sheppard has seems more like a marine aviator to me.

PLUS, he said he flew the cobra and the osprey, two aircraft the AF DOESN'T fly and the marines DO fly :D but ya know.

Agreed, I'm completely with you on that. When I first came into watching the show, and with only 6 episodes on my pocket, I didn't know that John wasn't a Marine. I figured he was a Marine pilot, and yeah I found the whole..."We don't leave a man behind."; more marine like---**"Semper Fidelis" (marine code meaning "always faithful") which I related to the above motto of his . First to go in, brothers in arms sort of thing; so it was pretty surprising for me to be told otherwise.

I thought it would have been cool if he was a Marine. Shoot, I didn't know there so many Air Force people connected to the Stargate, it always made me wonder why them mainly to Stargate (this could have been answered in SG1--didn't see more than 3 episode in S10 to know) since there are pilots in each of the divisions---not only the Air Force. I thought the Air Force cats were mainly the engineers and mechanics for the military let alone planes. I always saw the other military divisions as doing more flying.

On a totally superficial note, I'd think he'd look hot in the Marine dress uniform. That sword and gloves, yumm!! Nothing really beats a jarhead for me anyway.:D


Semper Fidelis:
Link: Definition ( http://www.marines.com/page/usmc.jsp?pageId=/page/Detail-XML-Conversion.jsp?pageName=Semper-Fi&flashRedirect=true)

Proud to Belong
Semper Fidelis was adopted in 1883 as a motto of the Corps. Taken from the Latin, it means "Always Faithful". But it is more than a motto for the Marines, it is a way of life. It is a commitment we all share to our country, to our Corps, and to each other. This is why there are no ex-Marines, only former Marines.

[carterrocks]

And yet she needs his help in Pegasus Project...

Actually she only needed his help to save time if you watch it she says "check my calculations McKay", she already made the calculations and just needed a second opinion. After she sent out he first nuke she needed someone to revise the calculations as she was busy, if anything he was her lapdog:)


IMHO, both Mitchell and Sheppard were created in Jack's image (or RDA's, as it were). That's not to take away from JF or BB's portrayal of the characters, but the wisecracks and joking, I think, were deliberately included in an effort to mimic Jack's persona.

I totally agree but i can stand sheppard but i cant stand mitchell grrrrr

[jenks]

Actually she only needed his help to save time if you watch it she says "check my calculations McKay", she already made the calculations and just needed a second opinion. After she sent out he first nuke she needed someone to revise the calculations as she was busy, if anything he was her lapdog:)


MCKAY: I am just saying …the yield calculations can be extremely tricky if not borderline impossible. You may need me.

VALA: Colonel Carter said as much.

Not to mention the fact that it was him who figured out how to make the plan work, when she couldn't.

[Ace]

One thing I will say about Sheppard is that he doesn't strike me as an Air Force officer. That's why at the beginning I thought (and hoped - and now wish) that he was actually a Marine Corps pilot. That's probably because I will be an officer candidate in the Corps myself very soon :D but I also think as a character he stands out more as a Marine than as an Air Force guy. The whole "we dont' leave our people behind" type of tough-guy, espirit-de-corps is a lot more common in the Marine Corps than in the AF. I'll admit it probably takes more brains and a different kind of "play by the rules" dedication to get through the AF Academy than USMC ocs/tbs/flightschool (~2 yrs, no 90 days for the Corps baby), but the skills and abilities Sheppard has seems more like a marine aviator to me.

PLUS, he said he flew the cobra and the osprey, two aircraft the AF DOESN'T fly and the marines DO fly :D but ya know.

Ohh.. no way could he be a Marine! Have you ever seen a Marine... there is no way Sheppard could be one, they wouldn't let him get away with half of what he does. I don't think he would have made it through OTS in the Air Force, yet alone OCS for the Marines. He's not Marine Corps material...

As for the we don't leave our people behind... that's not just the Marine Corps that's for every service of the military. Everybody is taught that we don't leave people behind, other branches and certain positions within those branches are more fanatical about it, but everyone is taught that.

Also OCS for the Marines is 10 weeks not 2 years. I see that you were including TBS which is 6 months long and then flight school which is considerably longer but you could say the same for any other service. For the Air Force I believe it is 12 weeks at OTS then they head off to their speciality schools.

But to get commissioned it is only 10 weeks...


Agreed, I'm completely with you on that. When I first came into watching the show, and with only 6 episodes on my pocket, I didn't know that John wasn't a Marine. I figured he was a Marine pilot, and yeah I found the whole..."We don't leave a man behind."; more marine like---**"Semper Fidelis" (marine code meaning "always faithful") which I related to the above motto of his . First to go in, brothers in arms sort of thing; so it was pretty surprising for me to be told otherwise.

Yeah once again... the we don't leave people behind thing is ingrained into everyone that joins the military. The Rangers for instance have the saying in their creed, but the concept overall applies to everyone, not just a certain branch like the Marines.



I thought it would have been cool if he was a Marine. Shoot, I didn't know there so many Air Force people connected to the Stargate, it always made me wonder why them mainly to Stargate (this could have been answered in SG1--didn't see more than 3 episode in S10 to know) since there are pilots in each of the divisions---not only the Air Force. I thought the Air Force cats were mainly the engineers and mechanics for the military let alone planes. I always saw the other military divisions as doing more flying.

No... actually that's incorrect. A majority of the people in the Air Force are pilots or navigators. Whether they be flying helicopters, fighter planes, or huge transport planes they are the AIR FORCE of the United States military.

The other branches do have air services: the Army is mostly focused on helicopters to support the troops in the field, the Navy has aircraft carriers in which both Navy and Marine personnel are pilots.

While one can argue that flying for the Army/Navy/Marines will get you more flying time than the Air Force. The goal of the Air Force is to gain and maintain air supremecy over any battlefield. The Navy controls the seas, the Marines are the extension of that policy and the Army... well we all know what the Army does.

The Air Force is all about flying though...

Ace

[the dancer of spaz]

MCKAY: I am just saying …the yield calculations can be extremely tricky if not borderline impossible. You may need me.

VALA: Colonel Carter said as much.

Not to mention the fact that it was him who figured out how to make the plan work, when she couldn't.

Yep. There's no doubt in my mind that the two are equally intelligent, but simply use different methods of figuring out a problem. I think those different methods complement each other, which is why Pegasus Project worked out the way that it did. It showed both characters contributing to the solution.

I also think that Carter realizes how smart McKay is, otherwise she wouldn't have told her teammates that they needed him, and she wouldn't have later conceded that he was right about his reservations and calculations.

[Uber]

Yep. There's no doubt in my mind that the two are equally intelligent, but simply use different methods of figuring out a problem. I think those different methods complement each other, which is why Pegasus Project worked out the way that it did. It showed both characters contributing to the solution.

I also think that Carter realizes how smart McKay is, otherwise she wouldn't have told her teammates that they needed him, and she wouldn't have later conceded that he was right about his reservations and calculations.Yup. And then later she was right about increasing the yield whereas McKay said it was too dangerous.

They're both geniuses...they compete with each other but it's all in good fun. :)

[the dancer of spaz]

Yup. And then later she was right about increasing the yield whereas McKay said it was too dangerous.

They're both geniuses...they compete with each other but it's all in good fun. :)

Uh huh. Since S5 of SG-1, McKay has always questioned Sam because she doesn't take the traditional route to get things done. She goes by instinct and what looks like it might work, which irritates him - especially when it does work.

At the same time, McKay can process information extraordinarily fast. I can't the IOA not wanting those two working together at some point.

[Atlantis1]

I can respect that... I'm a huge military buff/historian so I love watching anything about the military. I'm a big History & Military channel guy... and what I liked about SG-1 and actually got me watching in the first place was the fact that they had actual Air Force advisors.

The show was being done as realistically as possible, whereas Atlantis is not. Don't get me started on beret wearing Marines, or Sheppard's hair and his utter lack of ability to render a proper salute.

Like I said earlier... I'm just happy that Amanda Tapping is coming aboard as she acts and talks alot like a certain female Lt. Colonel that is in the Air Force I know.

I have nothing against Weir... and I hope she gets a better story arc than Lt. Ford received.

Ace

I understand the military thing. My Dad was in WW2 and I've had many a years of him telling what it was like or how people don't believe there were kamakaze attacks, etc. We also had lots of military movies and documentaries.
SGA is a fiction show and I like how Sheppard is not a hard core military man. Most of the military people we've had on SGA have been a bit over tough. I liked Bates but I thought how he treated Teyla was less then professsional. He knew how she felt about the wraith yet as good as accused her of being one when in the first season ending in a fight with Teyla which SHEPPARD had to break up. He should have taken his concerns to Weir and not to Teyla.
With Weir in command of Atlantis we had a civilian outpost with a military (run by Sheppard) back up. I am fine with that.
This is a fiction show and really thankfully. I think we can give it some room to break the rules once in a while to give us something different. I started SGA from the beginning and the military aspect of the show was great as it was. I didn't like how Sumner treated Teyla and her people. Sheppard did a better job at befriending her then Sumner.
I hate that Carter is coming to SGA but since she is I will accept it at the time. However, I don't want to see it be the possible beginning of the end of what I deem the true SGA!

[Atlantis1]

In my opinion, Sheppard doesn't have a clue. He just hasn't convinced me that he is an Air Force Officer. It's hard to see him going through the Academy or 90 days at Officer Training School. In my opinion he would have washed out...
Ace

The ninety day wonders as some of the soldiers in WW2 referred to those type of officers. :D

[jckfan55]

I think Carter is very credible as a military officer and scientist. I think she'll make a nice addition to SGA. I hope they make her a full bird colonel.

[vaberella]

Yeah once again... the we don't leave people behind thing is ingrained into everyone that joins the military. The Rangers for instance have the saying in their creed, but the concept overall applies to everyone, not just a certain branch like the Marines.
Actually Ace you're not telling me anything I don't know. My comment and hence it's relation to Semper Fidelis, which I don't see other military divisions have (this is not an exhaustive study by any stress of the imagination). I just posted the link of the definition from their site.

Anyway I know all this, I just related him more as a marine than as any other military division on a set of terms that of course are not limited to marines, but I relate to marines. Especially when I heard his motto. Until of course a buddy of mine cleared that up early on---military brat on GW.


No... actually that's incorrect. A majority of the people in the Air Force are pilots or navigators. Whether they be flying helicopters, fighter planes, or huge transport planes they are the AIR FORCE of the United States military.

The other branches do have air services: the Army is mostly focused on helicopters to support the troops in the field, the Navy has aircraft carriers in which both Navy and Marine personnel are pilots.

While one can argue that flying for the Army/Navy/Marines will get you more flying time than the Air Force. The goal of the Air Force is to gain and maintain air supremecy over any battlefield. The Navy controls the seas, the Marines are the extension of that policy and the Army... well we all know what the Army does.

The Air Force is all about flying though...

Ace


I'm not saying that my terminology was correct Ace, because I know it's not. I just always looked at the Air Force as more the engineers than anything else. I'm well versed in the US military divisions, mainly because one of my mates from GW was a military brat growing up and informed of the divisions, their breakdown and what they fly and don't fly.

So I know. I just was explaining my military knowledge when I came on board, added on to a few classifications I threw on some of the military divisions.

Admittedly, I should have made that more clear in my post.

[SG13-NightOps]

Can I just say.. I find the comparing Shep and Cam as to who is closer to O'Neill kinda funny. With consideration that it was going to be BB playing Shep - til PKW came up anyway.

Having said that, I can picture every thing Shep says and does as tho it was BB there - he is as close as he could get to BB without being BB.

So that tends to make me feel like they clone each other, more than anyone else, lol. But I do agree - there is nothing overtly military about Shep. They arent all carbon copies, and anyone can crack really bad puns at the most inappropriate time (although apparently the Airforce has the monopoly on these kinds of people - or they train them themselves) but while they have their similarities, the personalities are very different IMO.

[ElessarUSMC]

Ohh.. no way could he be a Marine! Have you ever seen a Marine... there is no way Sheppard could be one, they wouldn't let him get away with half of what he does. I don't think he would have made it through OTS in the Air Force, yet alone OCS for the Marines. He's not Marine Corps material...

As for the we don't leave our people behind... that's not just the Marine Corps that's for every service of the military. Everybody is taught that we don't leave people behind, other branches and certain positions within those branches are more fanatical about it, but everyone is taught that.

Also OCS for the Marines is 10 weeks not 2 years. I see that you were including TBS which is 6 months long and then flight school which is considerably longer but you could say the same for any other service. For the Air Force I believe it is 12 weeks at OTS then they head off to their speciality schools.

But to get commissioned it is only 10 weeks...



Yeah once again... the we don't leave people behind thing is ingrained into everyone that joins the military. The Rangers for instance have the saying in their creed, but the concept overall applies to everyone, not just a certain branch like the Marines.




No... actually that's incorrect. A majority of the people in the Air Force are pilots or navigators. Whether they be flying helicopters, fighter planes, or huge transport planes they are the AIR FORCE of the United States military.

The other branches do have air services: the Army is mostly focused on helicopters to support the troops in the field, the Navy has aircraft carriers in which both Navy and Marine personnel are pilots.

While one can argue that flying for the Army/Navy/Marines will get you more flying time than the Air Force. The goal of the Air Force is to gain and maintain air supremecy over any battlefield. The Navy controls the seas, the Marines are the extension of that policy and the Army... well we all know what the Army does.

The Air Force is all about flying though...

Ace


I don't really agree with you about your evaluation of Sheppard's officer-materialness, and yes I know quite a few Marines, both enlisted and commissioned - but commissioned is a whole different kind of person. He may not be what most people think of as a Marine because most people think of enlisted Marines when they think of Marines. A Marine officer is expected to take initiative and think creatively, in fact it's been said NOT just by Marine officers, but by past Army generals and Navy admirals that USMC officers are reared in a more objective-oriented leadership environment. Although everybody's leadership style varies and I'm not saying everyone in each branch acts one way, but read statements by these Navy and Army officers that in their opinion, officers in the Army give orders with details about how to obtain an objective; whereas higher ranking Marine officers (Cols, Generals, Majors) give orders to the Lts and Captains leading their platoons and companies about what objective to achieve. Basically in other words, that creativity and freedom of method are more prevalent in the philosophy of leadership in the Corps. That's not a very common perception of the Corps, but it truly is the way they train officers.

Now, yes, OCS is only 10 weeks. But OCS isn't a training session, it's a screening process. You just said Army goes through OTS for 10 weeks then you go off to an MOS school, which you equated to TBS, but it's not like TBS, because TBS isn't an MOS school. TBS is 6 months to train every marine officer to be a rifle platoon commander, regardless of MOS - that means aviation candidates, JAG candidates, Adjutant candidates who will sit at a desk their entire USMC career, and infantry officer hopefuls, all learn how to be rifle platoon commanders equally. Only after that do they actually attend specific MOS schools for Field artillery or flight school or what have you. TBS is what sets the Corps apart from the Army/AF.


Anyway, sorry about that goin way off topic here! But, we can't really argue facts in regards to Sheppard, I just think he's more USMC material than you realize. He breaks orders occasionally which is bad in ANY branch, so I think that is to his detriment in whatever branch he's in.

And yeah, the 'we never leave our people behind' thing is common everywhere. But he's got a stronger sense of it... idk, it says Marine to me.

Plus, the other marine officers that have appeared in Atlantis have been portrayed gung-ho to a fault, which irritates me. Even Ford a little bit (before Siege). That's why I wish Sheppard were a Marine, because he's a better example of the virtues a real Marine officer is imbued with than like that guy who came and took over defenses of the city in "The Siege". I didn't mind Colonel Sumner so much, he seemed like a good guy.

[Ace]

I liked Bates but I thought how he treated Teyla was less then professsional. He knew how she felt about the wraith yet as good as accused her of being one when in the first season ending in a fight with Teyla which SHEPPARD had to break up. He should have taken his concerns to Weir and not to Teyla.

Ahhh... see! LOL :D This goes back to what I was saying before with that Stargate appeals to all sorts of people. I loved that scene with Bates and Teyla because in my opinion Bates was completely and utterly right in his assertion.

Back then they had no idea how the Wraith telepathy thing worked. He was well within his right as head of security to question her as a possible information leak. He was absoultely correct when he said:

Bates:..."we still don't fully understand her connection to the Wraith and, in my opinion, I don't think we should expose her to information we wouldn't want the Wraith to have -- not the least of which is the location of our evac site."

This makes absoulte sense when regarding the security of Atlantis and it's personnel. Sheppard should have known this and have agreed. In addition twice he said that he believed that Teyla wasn't giving away information on purpose but the connection she had and the Wraith's ability to control her made her too much of a security risk at that time.

I thought Sheppard was in the wrong and Bates was in the right on this particular situation.


Actually Ace you're not telling me anything I don't know.

So I know. I just was explaining my military knowledge when I came on board, added on to a few classifications I threw on some of the military divisions.

Admittedly, I should have made that more clear in my post.

Ohh I see... I apologize! Correct me if I'm wrong but you were stating that when you "came on board" and didn't know much about the military and it's structure you believed that Sheppard was a marine and that the Air Force were only engineers and mechanics.

I gotcha my apologizes... If I may though do you still see Sheppard as more of a Marine? Or do you see him as an Air Force Officer? Or, like myself, do you believe he could not possibly be in the military yet alone a high ranking officer?

I realize I may have gotten this thread a bit off topic... however the origin of all of this talking was the fact that I was looking forward to Carter coming aboard as I felt that she would be a much welcomed military presence on Atlantis where before we have had none. Except for guest characters like Caldwell, Ellis, Sumner and Everett. Of course this is all my opinion take from it what you will...

Ace

[Killdeer]

Can I just say.. I find the comparing Shep and Cam as to who is closer to O'Neill kinda funny. With consideration that it was going to be BB playing Shep - til PKW came up anyway.

True :D. I didn't know that until recently.


Having said that, I can picture every thing Shep says and does as tho it was BB there - he is as close as he could get to BB without being BB.

Wow! No-sorry can't see that.


So that tends to make me feel like they clone each other, more than anyone else, lol. But I do agree - there is nothing overtly military about Shep. They arent all carbon copies, and anyone can crack really bad puns at the most inappropriate time (although apparently the Airforce has the monopoly on these kinds of people - or they train them themselves) but while they have their similarities, the personalities are very different IMO.

This I agree with. I see Shep and Mitchell as maybe two sides of the same coin, if you'll allow me the analogy. Mitchell is an optimist, Shep is a cynic. Mitchell is an outgoing people person, Shep is a lot more reserved, more quiet. Mitchell is a very open person and seems to expect the same from others, Shep is emotionally repressed. :D One is a decorated officer with a spotless record, and one obviously threw away his career, whatever it was, to rescue his teammates/friends. Anyway. I like them both. I don't think BB has had enough time to develop Mitchell as a character, and he's had to fight with some inconsistant writing, but toward the end of Season 10, I think it was coming together.

I'm always kind of thought they could be friends, if they were on somewhat neutral ground. In Pegasus Project, there was a lot of posturing going on though, especially with Cam. Shep was relaxed, being on his own territory, but Cam seemed to have something to prove, maybe that SG1 was still the best or something. It was odd how he seemed to appoint himself Carter's knight, defending her against McKay. They all relaxed somewhat toward the end, but I just thought the dynamics there were a little strange.

[Ace]

I don't really agree with you about your evaluation of Sheppard's officer-materialness

I can respect that... I may not agree or understand how you don't see it. But I can respect it.


A Marine officer is expected to take initiative and think creatively, in fact it's been said NOT just be Marine officers, but by past Army generals and Navy admirals that USMC officers are reared in a more objective-oriented leadership environment. Although everybody's leadership style varies and I'm saying everyone in each branch acts one way, but read statements by these Navy and Army officers that in their opinion, officers in the Army give orders with details about how to obtain an objective; whereas higher ranking Marine officers (Cols, Generals, Majors) give orders to the Lts and Captains leading their platoons and companies about what objective to achieve. Basically in other words, that creativity and freedom of method are more prevalent in the philosophy of leadership in the Corps. That's not a very common perception of the Corps, but it truly is the way they train officers.

Preaching to the choir my friend... btw did I read correctly earlier when you said that you were preparing to become a Marine Officer? I've begun my candidate process, lots of paper work, for OCS. I'm hoping to attend one of the 10 week sessions next summer. When do you take the plunge?


Now, yes, OCS is only 10 weeks. But OCS isn't a training session, it's a screening process. You just said Army goes through OTS for 10 weeks then you go off to an MOS school, which you equated to TBS, but it's not like TBS, because TBS isn't an MOS school. TBS is 6 months to train every marine officer to be a rifle platoon commander, regardless of MOS - that means aviation candidates, JAG candidates, Adjutant candidates who will sit at a desk their entire USMC career, and infantry officer hopefuls, all learn how to be rifle platoon commanders equally. Only after that do they actually attend specific MOS schools for Field artillery or flight school or what have you. TBS is what sets the Corps apart from the Army/AF.

First off... I was referring to the Air Force and not the Army. The Army is OCS as well whereas the Air Force is OTS. Ohh I know all about TBS and certainly did not equate MOS school to TBS. Please reread my post again... I was clarifying your post from earlier when it seemed that you were insinuating that the Marine Corps had a 2 year training program before you were commissioned whereas the other services only had 90 day training programs. Which is simply untrue!

I was just trying to clarify what you said, by stating that to get commissioned you need to go through the 10 weeks at OCS. From there as a newly minted 2nd Lieutenant you would go to TBS then to your MOS school and so on and so on...



Anyway, sorry about that goin way off topic here! But, we can't really argue facts in regards to Sheppard, I just think he's more USMC material than you realize. He breaks orders occasionally which is bad in ANY branch, so I think that is to his detriment in whatever branch he's in.

And yeah, the 'we never leave our people behind' thing is common everywhere. But he's got a stronger sense of it... idk, it says Marine to me.

I would argue that O'Neill has a stronger sense of 'not leaving people behind' than Sheppard. Sheppard has not real motivation to believe in that motto more than any other member of the military.

O'Neill's experience being left behind in Iraq and then thrown in a jail for months has given him that real strong belief in not leaving people behind and a purpose to teach it to young cadets.

Sheppard obviously believes in the statement, but I would argue that he has no stronger sense of it than any other Air Force officer. It my opinion it certainly doesn't make him closer to a Marine mindset.

I look forward to what you have to say next... I love talking about the military especially when it concerns Stargate. So bring it on! :D

Ace

[vaberella]

Ohh I see... I apologize! Correct me if I'm wrong but you were stating that when you "came on board" and didn't know much about the military and it's structure you believed that Sheppard was a marine and that the Air Force were only engineers and mechanics.

I gotcha my apologizes... If I may though do you still see Sheppard as more of a Marine? Or do you see him as an Air Force Officer? Or, like myself, do you believe he could not possibly be in the military yet alone a high ranking officer?

I realize I may have gotten this thread a bit off topic... however the origin of all of this talking was the fact that I was looking forward to Carter coming aboard as I felt that she would be a much welcomed military presence on Atlantis where before we have had none. Except for guest characters like Caldwell, Ellis, Sumner and Everett. Of course this is all my opinion take from it what you will...

Ace

Yeah, when I first came on board around late Jan early Feb of '06, I had thoughts on John. I also hadn't seen much of the eps to begin with. But what I did see, and when I heard his motto, something I knew was common amongst the military---I just automatically related to the Semper Fidelis motto for the Marines. And also because Ford was on his team (who I think/thought was/is a Marine), I just figured John was a marine pilot. Until I was taken to the side and told otherwise and in great detail. :D

My assumptions at the time were as I mentioned based on a limited knowledge of US military regime and with a few basic generalizations. I make no excuses for that.

Seeing him now and from what I was informed of and through some limited researching on the military...and you want me to be honest :o . I wonder how John even survived boot camp---but I might not be giving him too much credit.

I sometimes get the feeling that they added a bit of Top Gun in his role ran with it and made his abilities too vast making him a military pilot conundrum. Anyway, I always thought the hair was a tad too distracting for him to even be in the military.

But hey, this is scifi and I love Shep in all his ways, so I overlook these things and move on. His military faux pas haven't been too distracting for me, although my friend has had a few problems.:D

[Ace]

Yeah, when I first came on board around late Jan early Feb of '06, I had thoughts on John. I also hadn't seen much of the eps to begin with. But what I did see, and when I heard his motto, something I knew was common amongst the military---I just automatically related to the Semper Fidelis motto for the Marines. And also because Ford was on his team (who I think/thought was/is a Marine), I just figured John was a marine pilot. Until I was taken to the side and told otherwise and in great detail. :D

My assumptions at the time were as I mentioned based on a limited knowledge of US military regime and with a few basic generalizations. I make no excuses for that.

Seeing him now and from what I was informed of and through some limited researching on the military...and you want me to be honest :o . I wonder how John even survived boot camp---but I might not be giving him too much credit.

I sometimes get the feeling that they added a bit of Top Gun in his role ran with it and made his abilities too vast making him a military pilot conundrum. Anyway, I always thought the hair was a tad too distracting for him to even be in the military.

But hey, this is scifi and I love Shep in all his ways, so I overlook these things and move on. His military faux pas haven't been too distracting for me, although my friend has had a few problems.:D

I have to agree with everything you've said... I can also see how you made such a mistake in the beginning. Especially with Ford, being a marine, I can understand why you would think Sheppard was a Marine.

I will also agree to your Top Gun comment... your going to get green for that! :D

Ace

[ElessarUSMC]

Preaching to the choir my friend... btw did I read correctly earlier when you said that you were preparing to become a Marine Officer? I've begun my candidate process, lots of paper work, for OCS. I'm hoping to attend one of the 10 week sessions next summer. When do you take the plunge?



Going to OCC-198 in June 2008. I'd like to go sooner but I'm waiting on an eye waiver :( . I've started the paperwork as well, I've been to a few USMC events around here too. Are you going to Army OCS or are you saying you're goin to ocs for the marines also? If you're goin next summer we might be in the same OCS class, if you're doing the 10-week session. It depends, I'm going OCC which may be a different body of candidates if you're doing "PLC-C" which is a little different. I'll be graduating from college May 2008 so I'm OCC track, not PLC (which is for college).



First off... I was referring to the Air Force and not the Army. The Army is OCS as well whereas the Air Force is OTS. Ohh I know all about TBS and certainly did not equate MOS school to TBS. Please reread my post again... I was clarifying your post from earlier when it seemed that you were insinuating that the Marine Corps had a 2 year training program before you were commissioned whereas the other services only had 90 day training programs. Which is simply untrue!

I was just trying to clarify what you said, by stating that to get commissioned you need to go through the 10 weeks at OCS. From there as a newly minted 2nd Lieutenant you would go to TBS then to your MOS school and so on and so on...


Ah! I see. You see then, I thought you were calling TBS an MOS school ;) . Yeah no no, you're commissioned after your 10 week OCS session, but you really don't do the job of a Marine officer until going through TBS and all that, so I consider it extra from what the rest go through :). I'm going 7599 (naval aviator) as you may have guessed, having mentioned flight school. If I can't do air though my first choice on the ground would probably be field artillery --->:ford:




I would argue that O'Neill has a stronger sense of 'not leaving people behind' than Sheppard. Sheppard has not real motivation to believe in that motto more than any other member of the military.

O'Neill's experience being left behind in Iraq and then thrown in a jail for months has given him that real strong belief in not leaving people behind and a purpose to teach it to young cadets.

Sheppard obviously believes in the statement, but I would argue that he has no stronger sense of it than any other Air Force officer. It my opinion it certainly doesn't make him closer to a Marine mindset.

I look forward to what you have to say next... I love talking about the military especially when it concerns Stargate. So bring it on! :D

Ace

I agree, O'Neill has a very strong sense of espirit-de-corps too, I don't know if I'd say "stronger" than Sheppard's, although Sheppard clearly doesn't want to die quite a bit. In those situations I wish he were portrayed little 'harder' , but they probably want him to seem more sensible than gung-ho. But you're right, with O'Neill's experience as a POW he definitely knows what it's like more than Sheppard. I mean he's also just older, with more Earth-side combat experience.

I always figured O'Neill for having been one of those Air Force Air Commando special forces guys. Maybe even one of the SERE para-rescue guys back in the day. I realized the only time they actually CALL him a pilot from what I can remember, is the recent episode of Atlantis where Landry says "You're not a test pilot anymore, Jack!" in The Return. I prefer the idea that he has been ground-based AF specfor for his career. :cool:

Lately I've been thinking about what kind of aircraft I really want to fly, although I don't have to even worry about that for a long, long time. Assuming I get all the way to flight school, at that point it is based on how well you do as to what your options are. You can still choose rotary wing if you ace through the early parts of flight school where you select an airframe, but you CAN'T fly fixed wing unless you score at a certain level. I believe it's a 60/80 on their scoring regime up to that point. But from what I've read, the scoring is based on a comparison to past flight school classes, so you can hypothetically score over 80.

I'd probably most like to fly the Cobra or the F-18 just for "hell yea!" value, lol. The Osprey is a pretty unique aircraft but it's still so dangerous after all this crashes. I don't fear dying in an air engagement so much but dying because the stupid aircraft malfunctioned just sounds like teh suck. Why increase the chance by opting to fly something that's been known to be a death trap, ya know?

The other thing is that I'm considering going for C-130 for a specific reason, and that is I think it'd be a sweet job to fly Force Recon troops in and drop them off, since they do AB drops. I talked to my OSO about it to find out if you can even get into that job that way, and apparently you can, that's exactly how you do it. He said most likely if I went that route, I'd end up flying the regular kind of refueling and cargo missions the K/C-130 does 90% of the time but eventually I'd run into an opportunity to fly FR drops if I really looked for it, and got to know the right people. I guess it's something you just fall into with an LTC or somebody who's done it 200 times.

Btw, here's an area where I'm admittedly ignorant Ace, but does the AF even fly very many helicopters? Sheppard's definitely a chopper pilot from his listed experience in the first episode, cause nobody flies fixed and rotary... at least, if they wanted to make him THAT experienced, he should have been older, IMO.

Um, to get more on topic... no, I'm not looking forward to Weir leaving :( But I am looking forward to Sam joining the cast.

[Atlantis1]

Ahhh... see! LOL :D This goes back to what I was saying before with that Stargate appeals to all sorts of people. I loved that scene with Bates and Teyla because in my opinion Bates was completely and utterly right in his assertion.

Back then they had no idea how the Wraith telepathy thing worked. He was well within his right as head of security to question her as a possible information leak. He was absoultely correct when he said:

Bates:..."we still don't fully understand her connection to the Wraith and, in my opinion, I don't think we should expose her to information we wouldn't want the Wraith to have -- not the least of which is the location of our evac site."

This makes absoulte sense when regarding the security of Atlantis and it's personnel. Sheppard should have known this and have agreed. In addition twice he said that he believed that Teyla wasn't giving away information on purpose but the connection she had and the Wraith's ability to control her made her too much of a security risk at that time.

I thought Sheppard was in the wrong and Bates was in the right on this particular situation. Ace

Bates should have taken this up with both Weir and Sheppard. This was not really 100% security situation because the Wraith already knew where Atlantis was and in this case a fine line could be drawn in leadership. Bates had no right to take on Teyla. He should have reported his concerns to Weir. It was wrong of him to start a fight.

[Skydiver]

well since you all know that you're talking off topic, how about we get things back ON TOPIC please.

which is NOT the military nature of atlantis but rather who is looking forward to carter coming and weir leaving.

[Ace]

Going to OCC-198 in June 2008. I'd like to go sooner but I'm waiting on an eye waiver :( . I've started the paperwork as well, I've been to a few USMC events around here too. Are you going to Army OCS or are you saying you're goin to ocs for the marines also? If you're goin next summer we might be in the same OCS class, if you're doing the 10-week session. It depends, I'm going OCC which may be a different body of candidates if you're doing "PLC-C" which is a little different. I'll be graduating from college May 2008 so I'm OCC track, not PLC (which is for college).

I am also on the OCC track... I'll graduate in Dec of '07 but I'm still not sure which class I will be going to. Waiting to hear back...




I agree, O'Neill has a very strong sense of espirit-de-corps too, I don't know if I'd say "stronger" than Sheppard's, although Sheppard clearly doesn't want to die quite a bit. In those situations I wish he were portrayed little 'harder' , but they probably want him to seem more sensible than gung-ho. But you're right, with O'Neill's experience as a POW he definitely knows what it's like more than Sheppard. I mean he's also just older, with more Earth-side combat experience.

I always figured O'Neill for having been one of those Air Force Air Commando special forces guys. Maybe even one of the SERE para-rescue guys back in the day. I realized the only time they actually CALL him a pilot from what I can remember, is the recent episode of Atlantis where Landry says "You're not a test pilot anymore, Jack!" in The Return. I prefer the idea that he has been ground-based AF specfor for his career. :cool:

I would probably still aruge that O'Neill has a stronger belief in leaving no one behind than Sheppard... but otherwise I completely agree with you on everything else.

In my mind I kind of ignore the pilot O'Neill and stick with the Special Ops O'Neill. I always saw him as a Combat Controller... but who knows?



Bates should have taken this up with both Weir and Sheppard. This was not really 100% security situation because the Wraith already knew where Atlantis was and in this case a fine line could be drawn in leadership. Bates had no right to take on Teyla. He should have reported his concerns to Weir. It was wrong of him to start a fight.

Bates didn't start that fight... Teyla did when she decked him with her elbow. Bates never got the chance to return the favor because of Ford & Sheppard.


well since you all know that you're talking off topic, how about we get things back ON TOPIC please.

which is NOT the military nature of atlantis but rather who is looking forward to carter coming and weir leaving.

Let me know if this is still off topic but with Dr. Weir leaving... obviously somebody has to run Atlantis. It may or may not be Carter... She is in only 14 episodes if memory serves.

Is that enough to show her in command? If she's not in command then who does run Atlantis? Personally I hope it's Caldwell...

Also how will Dr. Weir still be in any kind of arc with Atlantis if she is being shipped back to Earth to recover? Also she said she was going to quit... so why would she still be around?

Ace

[Agent_Dark]

I'm looking forward to Carter coming.

[ElessarUSMC]

Well if you go OCC in 2008 in the summer, I'll be there :cool: . What MOS you want?

I hadn't thought about Carter's number of episodes... 14/20... I wonder if that's enough to be in command. Was there ever a season that Weir was in command that she missed 6 episodes?? Doesn't seem like it. It seems like it would be kind of hard to NOT show the person in command for 6 episodes... I don't know.

Like I said I'm glad to see Carter come on... just not glad to see Weir go :weir: :(

[the dancer of spaz]

Well if you go OCC in 2008 in the summer, I'll be there :cool: . What MOS you want?

I hadn't thought about Carter's number of episodes... 14/20... I wonder if that's enough to be in command. Was there ever a season that Weir was in command that she missed 6 episodes?? Doesn't seem like it. It seems like it would be kind of hard to NOT show the person in command for 6 episodes... I don't know.

Like I said I'm glad to see Carter come on... just not glad to see Weir go :weir: :(

I think it might be possible to have the character lead Atlantis without being in all of the eps. 14 is still the vast majority... There have been episodes where Hammond, Jack, Landry and even Elizabeth weren't featured very heavily, so it wouldn't be too unusual. :)

[Suzotchka]

I was happy to see that Sam was coming over ... until I learned that Weir was going to be recurring. Now, no. I'm not happy.

[Mitchell82]

I was happy to see that Sam was coming over ... until I learned that Weir was going to be recurring. Now, no. I'm not happy.

You have to remember the two things are seperate and have nothing to do with the other.

[ElessarUSMC]

You have to remember the two things are seperate and have nothing to do with the other.

I don't think he(she) was insinuating they are. Why does everybody jump on that so fast?

I can be made |-----| this happy by Sam joining the cast but reduced by |---------| this much happy that Weir is leaving, and still end up with - |----| net happiness. Thus, not be happy. :cool:

[Willow'sCat]

I wish Weir was leaving but I have my doubts, I mean recurring could mean anything.

I am not really looking forward to Carter on Atlantis. If Carter was confirmed for only this season and never to be seen again I might feel differently. She could end up permanent and that has the potential to be as bad as the thought of Weir staying. :cool: *IMHO of course* :rolleyes:

[vaberella]

I wish Weir was leaving but I have my doubts, I mean recurring could mean anything.

I am not really looking forward to Carter on Atlantis. If Carter was confirmed for only this season and never to be seen again I might feel differently. She could end up permanent and that has the potential to be as bad as the thought of Weir staying. :cool: *IMHO of course* :rolleyes:

WC *huggiesxkissies* Woohoo! How's it going? :D

Meh, I'm in agreement to a few of what you're saying. I'm not all that cool with Weir recurring--I actually wanted a proper struggle for her position, not the crap I saw on screen for NML. But if they were going to do a remake of NML, then this was the best way out with out me shooting myself. :D Further more, I'm not sorry she's put to recurring, only for the fact that I can't see a role as leader as being a functional part of the overall story in the direction that it was pointed (ie Team related drama). It's like having a show on a President and trying to utilise the President properly when it's really about the President's aids, writers, and constituents---plus the power struggle with lobbyists (wraith)! :D

I don't want to get ahead of myself, but I do understand your point of Carter being there in the long-term. I personally don't think it will happen, JM pretty much confirmed that S/J will be confirmed in the films. Why would I mention that? It would mean S or J would have to leave the military. Sure it could mean just Jack, but I don't know how cool it would be to have your wife on extended trips in a galaxy she could end up dead on. Especially since Jack seems to already be grounded. Of course, it might come to light she stays for S5. But I find that highly unlikely.:p :)

[GateLadyM]

Why would I mention that? It would mean S or J would have to leave the military. Sure it could mean just Jack, but I don't know how cool it would be to have your wife on extended trips in a galaxy she could end up dead on. Especially since Jack seems to already be grounded.
Military staff are allowed to date and get married, they just can be romantically attached if one is in a command position over the other, as Jack was Sam's commanding officer on SG1. Since Jack was promoted and is mostly in DC, that opened the door for Sam/Jack to be canon without one having to leave the Air Force.


Of course, it might come to light she stays for S5. But I find that highly unlikely.:p :)
Amanda Tapping had one year left on her contract, which would cover season 4. I think it will depend on how the SGA audience reacts to her as to whether or not she returns in season 5. TPTB would also have to renegotiate her contract, and with SciFi channel being such tight wads, I doubt she will return after season 4.

[jckfan55]

I would argue that O'Neill has a stronger sense of 'not leaving people behind' than Sheppard. Sheppard has not real motivation to believe in that motto more than any other member of the military.

O'Neill's experience being left behind in Iraq and then thrown in a jail for months has given him that real strong belief in not leaving people behind and a purpose to teach it to young cadets.

Sheppard obviously believes in the statement, but I would argue that he has no stronger sense of it than any other Air Force officer. It my opinion it certainly doesn't make him closer to a Marine mindset.

I look forward to what you have to say next... I love talking about the military especially when it concerns Stargate. So bring it on! :D

Ace

My read on O'Neill is that he uses his flipness as a cover for a deep sense of duty and strong feelings. Whereas with Shep, I don't get much sense of depth under the attitude.
And more on topic: I think Carter also has a strong sense of duty. It would be interesting if she did not want to go to Atlantis, but had to b/c of orders.

[vaberella]

Military staff are allowed to date and get married, they just can be romantically attached if one is in a command position over the other, as Jack was Sam's commanding officer on SG1. Since Jack was promoted and is mostly in DC, that opened the door for Sam/Jack to be canon without one having to leave the Air Force.
Thanks for the unneeded crash course in military relationships. I just know that there are relationships frowned upon, of course mainly if you're in the same division. And from what I can see or the small episodes I have seen, she does take some orders from Jack (assumption of course based on past eps I've seen and the fact that Weir has to ask for Jack to okay her staying in the PG---figured he had some seat on the decisions when it comes to stargate). But that is neither here no there, nor was it a real big point in my statement. Since my whole point and focus of my argument, is to say that I don't think Sam's character is going to be staying on long, especially if there is a resolution on S/J---which is unfortunate since I'm an avid Jack/Dan or Jack/Weir shipper.



Amanda Tapping had one year left on her contract, which would cover season 4. I think it will depend on how the SGA audience reacts to her as to whether or not she returns in season 5. TPTB would also have to renegotiate her contract, and with SciFi channel being such tight wads, I doubt she will return after season 4.

I'm not privy to the AT's contract or know the ins and outs of it. I'm just basing this on some character assumptions. Again, things change within miliseconds, let alone days, months, and years. Until there is confirmation she's in S5, I personally think it is unlikely. But one never knows.

-----------------------------------

Revision on thought...Spending more time thinking of Carter's position in S4, if ratings or if the storyline is great; I can see AT be on recurring status in S5, and any other future seasons. That is if AT signs on. Her being in S5 as a recurring wouldn't bug me in the slightest, and if it so happens that she's really great leadership wise and is amazing in S4, I don't think I'd mind her being leader (although her being put as leader of Atlantis I do find totally unlikely--but again I can be proven wrong).

[The_Fifth]

I always have hated weir, so im happy with the changes

[Mitchell82]

I don't think he(she) was insinuating they are. Why does everybody jump on that so fast?

I can be made |-----| this happy by Sam joining the cast but reduced by |---------| this much happy that Weir is leaving, and still end up with - |----| net happiness. Thus, not be happy. :cool:

Mainly b/c of the bunch of sam bashing going on. I may have made a incorrect asumption though. I'm fine that Weir is recurring and there is no proof that she won't be back. I don't want her to leave permanantly but while I like her she isnt part of my "if they leave I'll leave" cast list. I'm hoping the Carter thing will go over well, and if it does it be nice to see her stay.

[ElessarUSMC]

I don't know if I have a "I'd leave if they leave" list. Jack was about as close I as I ever came to leaving Stargate, and even that had to be accompanied by my mounting irritation with how much I was trying to be force-fed acceptance of Mitchell early when he joined :mad:.

Anyway! Back on topic, If the little spoiler I just read someone post about "the movies" and "What JM has indicated" and things abotu people leaving the military... I just got uber happy! :jack_new_anime04:

That could have interesting repercussions for exactly how Carter joins Atlantis. Maybe she won't BE joining as military...

[Killdeer]

Anyway! Back on topic, If the little spoiler I just read someone post about "the movies" and "What JM has indicated" and things abotu people leaving the military... I just got uber happy! :jack_new_anime04:

That could have interesting repercussions for exactly how Carter joins Atlantis. Maybe she won't BE joining as military...

Really? I hadn't heard that. Could be interesting...Dr. Carter heading the expedition instead of Colonel Carter? Hmmm. I'll have to think about that idea for a while.

[ElessarUSMC]

I don't want to get ahead of myself, but I do understand your point of Carter being there in the long-term. I personally don't think it will happen, JM pretty much confirmed that S/J will be confirmed in the films. Why would I mention that? It would mean S or J would have to leave the military. Sure it could mean just Jack, but I don't know how cool it would be to have your wife on extended trips in a galaxy she could end up dead on. Especially since Jack seems to already be grounded. Of course, it might come to light she stays for S5. But I find that highly unlikely.:p :)


It was in there, in Vaberella's spoiler code. I extended the spoiler code because it seemed to me that non-coded parts could give away what the coded parts said...

[MathiasE]

Might be good, depends on what kind of role she will have there, she can't replace Weir as a leader of the expedition since she's not a leadertype.
And i can't see her working with McKay either since he can't be his abnoxious self around her.
However i dont really mind loosing Weir either since she didnt bring anything to the show since it's so offworld oriented which i mentioned in my last post.
If the show was more about exploring Atlantis i think Weir could have made more good.

However i'd rather see Daniel Jackson come to Atlantis since he's the Tau'ri expert on the ancients and could propably uncover more secrets to Atlantis in 1 day then the current expedition has done since they came there.

[the dancer of spaz]

And more on topic: I think Carter also has a strong sense of duty. It would be interesting if she did not want to go to Atlantis, but had to b/c of orders.

I would really like it if they took that angle. :)

[Killdeer]

I think Carter also has a strong sense of duty. It would be interesting if she did not want to go to Atlantis, but had to b/c of orders.
I would really like it if they took that angle. :)
So would I. Hmm, lots of intriguing possibilities in that.

[Mitchell82]

So would I. Hmm, lots of intriguing possibilities in that.

I agree. Very interesting posibilities on that.

[SGFerrit]

Didn't know where to post this, so I'll just post it here:


I am finally getting my bearings after doing my first episode of Atlantis and returning from the Vagina Monologues in Toronto.
...
Atlantis is proving to be really fun. The cast and crew have been so wonderful and welcoming. I am very happy there.

From Amanda's official website. Sorry if it has already been posted.

[Atlantis1]

My read on O'Neill is that he uses his flipness as a cover for a deep sense of duty and strong feelings. Whereas with Shep, I don't get much sense of depth under the attitude.
And more on topic: I think Carter also has a strong sense of duty. It would be interesting if she did not want to go to Atlantis, but had to b/c of orders.

Sheppard and O'Neill are really different characters. I agree with what you say about O'Neill but I think some people miss who Sheppard really is. If you watch Seteda where Teyla is talking to him on the Deadalus then you will see what kind of a private person he is. I believe he has a far stronger sense of duty and especially feeling of needing to protect those under him (both military and civilian) then he shows. We know he carries the responsibly for those he couldn't save both by admitance (i.e. Rising and Phantoms) and by the look on his face (Aurora and The Siege pt3) to name a couple.

I have no doubt Carter has just as strong a sense of duty as the two above. I just don't want to see her possibly causing Weir to leave. I really like Weir.

[Mitchell82]

Didn't know where to post this, so I'll just post it here:



From Amanda's official website. Sorry if it has already been posted.

Nice to hear that she is fitting in well. Can't wait to see how it works.

[ReganX]

However i'd rather see Daniel Jackson come to Atlantis since he's the Tau'ri expert on the ancients and could propably uncover more secrets to Atlantis in 1 day then the current expedition has done since they came there.

While that was probably true when Atlantis first started, by now, I would say that there are quite a few members of the Atlantis expedition who know more about the Ancients than he does.

[ElessarUSMC]

While that was probably true when Atlantis first started, by now, I would say that there are quite a few members of the Atlantis expedition who know more about the Ancients than he does.

I don't think "more" is the right word. When you speak the language and in a way such that you were THE FIRST to speak the language, you have a more intuitive understanding of the culture itself simply by that virtue. I have no doubt that many on the Atlantis expedition "know more" in terms of facts of their history, about their technology, when they did this and when they did that, etc, but when you come across some lab or some database, Rodney may be able to decipher the raw data, or Weir may be able to read it, but I think Daniel would understand better exactly what it means. It's a contextual thing, and I think Daniel understands Ancient context better than anyone.

[RepliHawk]

I think Daniel understands Ancient context better than anyone.

Go Daniel!!

[Falcon Horus]

...but when you come across some lab or some database, Rodney may be able to decipher the raw data, or Weir may be able to read it, but I think Daniel would understand better exactly what it means. It's a contextual thing, and I think Daniel understands Ancient context better than anyone.

And yet he had no idea what the text on Merlin's datapad said in the episode where they phase-shifted. And al he had to do was read the context.

[jenks]

And yet he had no idea what the text on Merlin's datapad said in the episode where they phase-shifted. And al he had to do was read the context.

Which episode was that? Arthurs Mantle?

[IronGoliath]

I literally cannot wait until season 4. I'm literally holding the piss as it were because I just wanna watch my favorite show of all time. I sure hope the writers continue writing until the end and keep on making interesting stories.

This just spices and mixes it up. I think Carter might be there until Weir is feeling better I seriously dont think its re-assignment and dont give me the bull about "well if they knocked off mcgillion they'll knock off higginson" because you know what higginson is a major character and mcgillion is not, despite the fact that he is probably the most lively happy cheerful fellow on the show.

Anyways..

ya....

whoa ranted..

[Mitchell82]

I literally cannot wait until season 4. I'm literally holding the piss as it were because I just wanna watch my favorite show of all time. I sure hope the writers continue writing until the end and keep on making interesting stories.

This just spices and mixes it up. I think Carter might be there until Weir is feeling better I seriously dont think its re-assignment and dont give me the bull about "well if they knocked off mcgillion they'll knock off higginson" because you know what higginson is a major character and mcgillion is not, despite the fact that he is probably the most lively happy cheerful fellow on the show.

Anyways..

ya....

whoa ranted..

WOW nice rant and I agree.

[Falcon Horus]

Which episode was that? Arthurs Mantle?

Yes, that's the one. I remember Daniel telling Carter he wished she could read ancient since he hadn't a clue what he was looking at. He knew how to read but didn't understand it.

[jenks]

Yes, that's the one. I remember Daniel telling Carter he wished she could read ancient since he hadn't a clue what he was looking at. He knew how to read but didn't understand it.

Because it was all technical stuff, not because he didn't understand what context it was written in. He's still understands the Ancients better than anyone in Atlantis.

[ann_sgcfan]

I literally cannot wait until season 4. I'm literally holding the piss as it were because I just wanna watch my favorite show of all time. I sure hope the writers continue writing until the end and keep on making interesting stories.

This just spices and mixes it up. I think Carter might be there until Weir is feeling better I seriously dont think its re-assignment and dont give me the bull about "well if they knocked off mcgillion they'll knock off higginson" because you know what higginson is a major character and mcgillion is not, despite the fact that he is probably the most lively happy cheerful fellow on the show.

Anyways..

ya....

whoa ranted..


Yeah I think the same thing... I think with all the responsibilities Sam has on Earth the assignment on Atlantis is only temporary until Weir is able to return.

[lunapasa]

Weir's leaving? I thought she was just going to appear in less episodes.

[ann_sgcfan]

Weir's leaving? I thought she was just going to appear in less episodes.

She will be there according to TPTB. Weir will be there in S4 just in less episodes... I think she will be back full time in s5 or later in s4 once she recovers from her injuries or returns from the dark side... whatever story line they have for her in s4.

[Falcon Horus]

Because it was all technical stuff, not because he didn't understand what context it was written in. He's still understands the Ancients better than anyone in Atlantis.

If you don't understand the context, you don't understand the text. It doesn't matter how well you know the language.
We all learn that in school, btw.

[Mitchell82]

She will be there according to TPTB. Weir will be there in S4 just in less episodes... I think she will be back full time in s5 or later in s4 once she recovers from her injuries or returns from the dark side... whatever story line they have for her in s4.

I prefer dark side. Be nice to see Weir go all dark side on us.

[jenks]

If you don't understand the context, you don't understand the text. It doesn't matter how well you know the language.
We all learn that in school, btw.

That's great, but they should of probably taught you what 'context' means first. You do realise that that phrase doesn't work both ways don't you?

[dana]

Not me, unfortunately. Don't get me wrong, I love Sam. But just in SG-1, that's where she belongs.

[Falcon Horus]

That's great, but they should of probably taught you what 'context' means first. You do realise that that phrase doesn't work both ways don't you?

Mmm...now that you mention it... :o

[Lt. Colonel Ryu Gaia]

Weir is the single worst diplomat in Stargate history. I mean, how the hell could they have left her in charge for as long as they have as it is? She screws everything up, and she has no idea how to deal with international relations. Out with Weir, and in with Carter! Huzzah.

[the dancer of spaz]

Daniel couldn't understand the text because it was laced with Ancient technobabble, but that doesn't make him any less the Ancients expert that he is. It'd be like Sam, who would otherwise understand the technobabble in English, trying to decipher Ancient text.

Just shows how invaluable they both are to the program. Same with Rodney; same with Elizabeth.

Those are the only four main characters from both series that bring credence to the science fiction. The problem is, we haven't seen Elizabeth do a whole lot of translating since she's become leader...

[Falcon Horus]

The problem is, we haven't seen Elizabeth do a whole lot of translating since she's become leader...

Of the top of my head... Ancient in Epiphany (season 2), and Wraith in The Gift (season 1).

[the dancer of spaz]

Of the top of my head... Ancient in Epiphany (season 2), and Wraith in The Gift (season 1).

I personally would've liked to see her juggle trying to translate and lead at the same time, or perhaps work with proteges who are masters at the language themselves. It would've provided that other element that would've sealed the deal in regards to her being irreplaceable.

Right now, the only reason I could think that Liz would be irreplaceable is for personal sentimental reasons. I don't want to see her leave that position for good, because that's clearly her life and it's clearly what fulfills her (see TRW and The Return, Part I). She's dedicated to Atlantis and all of the people she commands. However, from a militaristic/political standpoint, sentimental reasons have no place in their decision to take her out of the role.

I just hope that that's addressed, and that they show how devastated Liz is to learn that she either (a) is physically/emotionally unable to resume her duties or (b) is being kept at a distance by the Pentagon, or a combination of both. I think that'd be a great opportunity for further character development.

[Mitchell82]

Weir is the single worst diplomat in Stargate history. I mean, how the hell could they have left her in charge for as long as they have as it is? She screws everything up, and she has no idea how to deal with international relations. Out with Weir, and in with Carter! Huzzah.

She's made mistakes sure but she is not as bad as you make her out to be.

[Lt. Colonel Ryu Gaia]

She's made mistakes sure but she is not as bad as you make her out to be.

At best, she's an expositionary tool - she's the one who asks Rodney to tell us how screwed Team Atlantis is every episode. Nothing more.

Let's take a look at Atlantis' diplomatic relations, shall we? Let's start by counting our allies... oh, wait, we don't have any of those. Count up our enemies, though...

I think I'll pick an example. Episode 3.20, First Strike. Beware of spoilers, those who have not seen it...

We find out that the Asurans are building a fleet of ships. Not ONCE does it occur to anyone that they may be attempting to construct a fleet to deal with the Wraith. Not once! We just assume they're out to get us. Then after we annhilate half of their planet, we feel fully justified in having done that by means of their retribution, which puts us on the brink of oblivion. And Weir, in her infinite wisdom, doesn't attempt to negotiate with Oberon... she tells him "we've beaten you before, and if you keep this up, we'll have to kick your ass harder next time." What the hell is she doing? For the very least, she got what she had coming to her - she was the first person hurt when Atlantis actually got hit by the beam.

[the dancer of spaz]

At best, she's an expositionary tool - she's the one who asks Rodney to tell us how screwed Team Atlantis is every episode. Nothing more.

Let's take a look at Atlantis' diplomatic relations, shall we? Let's start by counting our allies... oh, wait, we don't have any of those. Count up our enemies, though...

I think I'll pick an example. Episode 3.20, First Strike. Beware of spoilers, those who have not seen it...

We find out that the Asurans are building a fleet of ships. Not ONCE does it occur to anyone that they may be attempting to construct a fleet to deal with the Wraith. Not once! We just assume they're out to get us. Then after we annhilate half of their planet, we feel fully justified in having done that by means of their retribution, which puts us on the brink of oblivion. And Weir, in her infinite wisdom, doesn't attempt to negotiate with Oberon... she tells him "we've beaten you before, and if you keep this up, we'll have to kick your ass harder next time." What the hell is she doing? For the very least, she got what she had coming to her - she was the first person hurt when Atlantis actually got hit by the beam.

Erm... Pardon my denseness, but based on the events of The Return, didn't Liz had just reason to be wary and combative? I would think so anyway.

[Lt. Colonel Ryu Gaia]

The Asurans didn't have anything against humanity personally until Weir pissed them off - they just wanted to blow up Atlantis because of an overwhelming desire for vengeance against their extremely arrogant creators.

Regardless, though, the point that I'm trying to make from that particular instance is that all Weir was doing was goading on an extremely powerful enemy while her city was under the threat of total annhilation. That is not what a diplomat is supposed to do.

[bluealien]

The Asurans didn't have anything against humanity personally until Weir pissed them off - they just wanted to blow up Atlantis because of an overwhelming desire for vengeance against their extremely arrogant creators.

Regardless, though, the point that I'm trying to make from that particular instance is that all Weir was doing was goading on an extremely powerful enemy while her city was under the threat of total annhilation. That is not what a diplomat is supposed to do.

Weir managed to piss them off 5 minutes after meeting them - she couldnt even remain diplomatic for more than five minutes and she is ment to be one of the best!!. She had no problem in destroying their entire city when they posed a threat to Atlantis but yet she doesn't want to do anything when they pose a threat to Earth with billions of people on it??

I think the Asurans were intent on going after earth because of the destruction of their city by Weir and the wraith were not their target. They probably didnt need ships against the wraith as they didnt need to go looking for the wraith as they would engage them on their doorstep.

[expendable_crewman]

I think the posters who want to blame the Asurans on Weir ought to watch Progeny again. And maybe Hot Zone, too. If you follow the story as it's given, the Asurans had long, deep, disturbing issues with humans thousands of years before Weir & team met up with them. IMO, by the time Weir met up with the Asurans, negotiation was a non-issue. Which is what made her thing in First Strike so odd.

On topic, over the last three seasons, Weir wasn't given good negotiating scenes, which was unfortunate. Every time she rolled up her sleeves to apply her trade, I'd get excited. And then ... nothing.

That could be said of other characters (plying their so-called skills) as well. The point of the scenes (and not just hers) was to build tension and move the action, not to settle everyone. The expedition and allies would blunder and more often than not the solution was (written to be) dynamic in the sci-fi sense. Look at The Game.

Still unfortunate, though. Because the Weir character suffers in the eyes of the viewers. One of my favorite resolutions in Stargate is Daniel helping to negotiate mining between a ticked off military officer and the ticked off Unas.

Atlantis incidents tend toward more of a straight line. The humans are either okay or they need help. Or both. In the end, the Pegasus humans figure out the expedition has cool toys and the surly ones settle down with their hands out, or they stay surly and the team meets up with them later, when the PG humans have outdone themselves in surliness. The Genii, the Menarans (who helped the Genii in The Storm after showing a little ire at Sheppard's negotiation technique.)
Season 2 Spoilers:
You got the Olesians in Condemned, a nice friendly bunch. How do you negotiate with them? The Taranian leader in Inferno fits the former category, a nice fellow who eventually figures out the expedition folks are kind of cool.
Stories that pit the expedition between a rock and a (moral) hard place requiring a true negotiator just didn't happen. Moral issues do abound, but they tend to pop up as internal discussion. The show relies heavily on science and military action, making negotiation moot. That's a writing choice, at least IMO. I never saw that as Weir's fault.

Has anyone on the PTB team said that Carter will be in charge? I haven't heard that but I've read in fan threads that it's an either / or, as in either Weir or Carter. I like both Weir and Carter and prefer not to choose. That's okay, because I'm not a Stargate writer or producer. I only have to watch! If Atlantis continues its direction of meeting up with meek, downtrodden (Wraith-trodden) humans, and baddies with big bad space ships who like to shoot (and eat) first and ask questions never, then IMO Carter will have way more to do in season 4 than Weir.

[vaberella]

Weir managed to piss them off 5 minutes after meeting them - she couldnt even remain diplomatic for more than five minutes and she is ment to be one of the best!!. She had no problem in destroying their entire city when they posed a threat to Atlantis but yet she doesn't want to do anything when they pose a threat to Earth with billions of people on it??

I think the Asurans were intent on going after earth because of the destruction of their city by Weir and the wraith were not their target. They probably didnt need ships against the wraith as they didnt need to go looking for the wraith as they would engage them on their doorstep.

Agreed, as I've said in the past, and my rather scathing reviews---crap leadership. ~sigh~ It's tragic really! Ronald MacDonald can be seen as being more diplomatic and negotiating a deal when he's dealing with rabid (my new favorite word) toddlers than Weir with several of her past encounters.

I vote for Ronald MacDonald as leader of Atlantis---at least we'd have big macs and the new double fish sandwich! Ooh, sushi Micky D's...it's already global, now they can go galaxial. :D
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To part of Expendable Creman's post...

Actually the Asuran issue can be blamed on Weir to an extent. She disclosed too much information at an early time. Oberoth was going to send her back to where ever she came without any one getting hurt until she took it upon herself to try to convince him and then let it slip that she's from Atlantis...and then all hell broke loose.

She played by the rules until she went against her lead team's council, and tried to convince Oberoth. This is why I hold her at fault. If you notice with John he makes it a point NEVER to disclose where he's from. It's seen from S2 until S3, when he encounters people he avoids the question, evades, or gives a non-commital answer, the others stay mum OR they also play the evasion game. Weir did none of this---she seemed to have forgotten that Atlantis is playing dead----and the warnings/concerns of Teyla enforced by John's own doubts and she went and gave forth information she should never had.

Then they took them prisoner and then we have the drama we have. So now the Asurans are more so our enemy than something else. I always hold off that Atlantians should have an off world base with their people on it, and should have things deferred there---just to minimize casualties...but ~sigh~. Drama continues to erupt putting our peeps in vast amount of trouble and make them foolish and repetitive in their mistakes.

[Celcool]

Weir is the single worst diplomat in Stargate history. I mean, how the hell could they have left her in charge for as long as they have as it is? She screws everything up, and she has no idea how to deal with international relations. Out with Weir, and in with Carter! Huzzah.
Oh please (should've said that before ;) ), as someone said before me, you're exaggerating. If some people don't see Elizabeth as a good negotiator and a diplomat at times when she's finally being given a chance to show her skills, it's because the writers are not doing their best job with the character. They have set up the character as being a top-level expert at that. Blame the writers, not the character and least of all not the actress. She's done wonders with what she's been given. Similarly, Teyla is one character they're not doing a great job of either. Even Rachel said that she wants a story for Teyla at the con. It says how happy she is with her character's development. So, you see, the writers need to work on themselves, not just do what's easiest, get rid of the character.



On topic, over the last three seasons, Weir wasn't given good negotiating scenes, which was unfortunate. Every time she rolled up her sleeves to apply her trade, I'd get excited. And then ... nothing.

That could be said of other characters (plying their so-called skills) as well. The point of the scenes (and not just hers) was to build tension and move the action, not to settle everyone. The expedition and allies would blunder and more often than not the solution was (written to be) dynamic in the sci-fi sense. Look at The Game.

Still unfortunate, though. Because the Weir character suffers in the eyes of the viewers. One of my favorite resolutions in Stargate is Daniel helping to negotiate mining between a ticked off military officer and the ticked off Unas.

Agreed. Great post!

[vaberella]

Oh please (should've said that before ;) ), as someone said before me, you're exaggerating. If some people don't see Elizabeth as a good negotiator and a diplomat at times when she's finally being given a chance to show her skills, it's because the writers are not doing their best job with the character. They have set up the character as being a top-level expert at that. Blame the writers, not the character and least of all not the actress. She's done wonders with what she's been given. Similarly, Teyla is one character they're not doing a great job of either. Even Rachel said that she wants a story for Teyla at the con. It says how happy she is with her character's development. So, you see, the writers need to work on themselves, not just do what's easiest, get rid of the character.

Uh, the character is not real, and the writers are the ones to write it. To say the writers dropped the ball would be a given. We can blame the character. The character is not the actor...but the character is created, maintained and written by writers. We don't need to point out the writers caused the inconsistency---nor do I think any of the posters who criticize Weir are doing that. We do happen to live in a state of reality, that being said, we are fully aware of what is going on.

But the show focuses around the characters. If the writers do show up and read some of the comments and they are wondering why people didn't like the show and what went wrong with the characterization and/or episode. It would be more helpful for them to see a real critique of the characters interactions, wouldn't you say? It's better than just to say we find the character boring or the episode was stupid. Explain in detail and if they take to heart what you have to say they'll change it. Apparently the writers have done, with the amount of mistakes they've done on Weir.

Anyway, Weir the character is perfectly up for topic and discussion without someone needing to defer to the writers since the character wouldn't be a bloody character (which we can blame) if we don't have it written and made into reality. It would just be an actor standing there making no moves or talking or being pretty much real; that's not even a character.

[the dancer of spaz]

I'm among the group that agrees that any issues that have arisen with Weir stem with the writers' inability (or lack of desire) to write her as a true leader of the expedition. Torri Higginson has done well with what she's been given, imo, and I see her getting a lot of flack much in the way Amanda Tapping has gotten in the past, because of the writers' missteps.

Others have said that the writers don't want to write a strong female character, but I wonder if they're able to anymore. What's worse is that there are females within the fandom who are unwilling and unable to give these characters the benefit of the doubt.

If you look at the four main female characters within the franchise, each one has significantly sized camps of people who love them, and camps that despise them. I dare say that there are more people who hate at least one of the four female characters than there are people who hate at least one of the eight male characters. And I just don't get that - especially when you look at how many more women are a part of the online fanbase than men.

That being said, the writers have not done any of their lead females any favors with the choices they've made, and have only served to exacerbate the problem with decisions that weaken the characters' credibility. It's as if a women absolutely cannot have too much authority over any of the lead male characters, whether it's Cameron, Sheppard or McKay. And because her position is supposed to be the leader of an entire base, Weir has suffered the most over the past three years.

So, as my concern has always been, if they thrust Carter into the leadership position, but don't intend on giving her any authority over Sheppard and McKay, there really was no point in uprooting Weir in the first place.

[Lt. Colonel Ryu Gaia]

Oh please (should've said that before ;) ), as someone said before me, you're exaggerating. If some people don't see Elizabeth as a good negotiator and a diplomat at times when she's finally being given a chance to show her skills, it's because the writers are not doing their best job with the character. They have set up the character as being a top-level expert at that. Blame the writers, not the character and least of all not the actress. She's done wonders with what she's been given. Similarly, Teyla is one character they're not doing a great job of either. Even Rachel said that she wants a story for Teyla at the con. It says how happy she is with her character's development. So, you see, the writers need to work on themselves, not just do what's easiest, get rid of the character.


Although the writers are at fault for the fact that Weir is an awful diplomat, that doesn't mean that Weir's awful diplomacy is somehow justified. And while I haven't said a word about the actress herself, she has yet to sell me on Weir being who she is supposed to be.

As for Teyla, I've on many occasions publicly expressed my desire for her to either be removed or actually given a role. But that's not the point of the thread, is it?

[freejack13]

Wait... Weir is leaving Atlantis? How in the world did I miss this announcement?

[the dancer of spaz]

Wait... Weir is leaving Atlantis? How in the world did I miss this announcement?

Haha, well if MGM hadn't made such a catastrophic booboo as to post the EP interviews online so early, no one would've known for sure about it until this fall. :P Or at least this summer.

[jenks]

'It's not the characters fault' is probably the single most retarded defence I've ever read. The character isn't real, it's a creation made by the writers and the actor/actress, if there's a problem with the character then it's either one of their faults, or both. I don't normally blame the actors, but I liked Weir in Lost city and have disliked her ever since.

[KindlyKeller]

Actually the Asuran issue can be blamed on Weir to an extent. She disclosed too much information at an early time. Oberoth was going to send her back to where ever she came without any one getting hurt until she took it upon herself to try to convince him and then let it slip that she's from Atlantis...and then all hell broke loose.

She played by the rules until she went against her lead team's council, and tried to convince Oberoth. This is why I hold her at fault. If you notice with John he makes it a point NEVER to disclose where he's from. It's seen from S2 until S3, when he encounters people he avoids the question, evades, or gives a non-commital answer, the others stay mum OR they also play the evasion game. Weir did none of this---she seemed to have forgotten that Atlantis is playing dead----and the warnings/concerns of Teyla enforced by John's own doubts and she went and gave forth information she should never had.


You are dead on. Weir screwed them ROYALLY on that one. The entire Asuran conflict is at her feet.

[KindlyKeller]

And while I haven't said a word about the actress herself, she has yet to sell me on Weir being who she is supposed to be.



Agreed. I don't think Torri is a bad actress, and she conveys a decent emotional range, but I've never for a second felt like she carried herself the way a character like this should/would. I thought Jessica was much better in that regard.

[vaberella]

I'm among the group that agrees that any issues that have arisen with Weir stem with the writers' inability (or lack of desire) to write her as a true leader of the expedition. Torri Higginson has done well with what she's been given, imo, and I see her getting a lot of flack much in the way Amanda Tapping has gotten in the past, because of the writers' missteps.
Again this is a given. No one cares about TH's portrayal. I don't see a single post discussing TH, her acting and what not. The focus is on the character. It's a given fact that when one critiques the character you are there fore critiquing the execution of the writing and in this case the mistakes they (the writers) made in the development or underdevelopment of the character. There is nothing wrong with those actions. This is not to say you could have written better than the writer, becuase I sure as hell can't. But there were avenues and directions open to better expand the character from your viewing.
Again I have not seen a single person say anything about TH...I for sure could care less. They chould change the actress who plays Weir (or any actor/actress who plays a character for that matter) about 20 times over, and it wouldn't mean anything to me...because I have concerns about the character alone.
The character would always pose a problem if the writing was the same no matter who the actress is. Unfortunately TH is playing the role and those who don't understand the difference between character critique versus actor (bashing/critique(this doesn't exist in fanbase to me, unless you're a trained actor)) may get confused. Now this is not to defend anyone who is the bashing the actor because of the character of Weir, I just personally haven't seen it happen. If they are, they need to get a life. I've seen this more so in the case of AT and RL.


Others have said that the writers don't want to write a strong female character, but I wonder if they're able to anymore. What's worse is that there are females within the fandom who are unwilling and unable to give these characters the benefit of the doubt.
I've disagreed with those people. The reasons why people adore Weir I would hope is more than just because TH is playing the role. They like Weir for the overall writing she's recieved That being said, from what I gather from some of the Weir fans posting on GW, many say she is a "STRONG" female character---so to these fans the writers have been successful in writing a strong female character (or they wouldn't have labeled Weir as such!). I find your quote or post on "others" statement then marginalizes the reason for liking the character of Weir or any woman on SGA.
I would be offended as a fan of some of the women of the SG fandom to hear others say that about my fave character. Further more, I can't see people attracted to Weir because she's NOT a strong female character. I just disike the characters decision making skills.
This also relates to this idea the writers can't write for females. If that was the case then NOT a single one of the female characters written in SGA would have a fan. Apparently they can write for females, I do think the writers lose themselves in finding balance between the position (status as in Col., leader, scientist) and the gender roles and perception. It's a bit hard to explain but the problem I see is the gender of the person within a paticular role (career position) and and still remaining true to the character can pose difficult. This has been up for debate in real life. How women have actually lost their "feminine" mentality when they've taken up the roles dominated by males, especially when working with males. This also directly connects to the women characters going to the "darker" side.
Sometimes I feel Weir is spending so many times warring with herself that she loses herself in making comprehensible decisions, which does not make a good leader. Of course I could be reading into it too much and that's actually what the writers want to reflect, that's great and all, but one gets fed up after 3 seasons of that--especially with the negative results. She needs to be capable.
I personally love the writers writing the women. My only concern is Weir making a decision and the sort of saintly Teyla promoted in S3. I think S1 was sensational and S2 was fantastic for Teyla. I wouldn't like the females as much if I thought the men couldn't write them. As I've also said in past posts the best stories for the women have been written by men and further more the men created these women.


If you look at the four main female characters within the franchise, each one has significantly sized camps of people who love them, and camps that despise them. I dare say that there are more people who hate at least one of the four female characters than there are people who hate at least one of the eight male characters. And I just don't get that - especially when you look at how many more women are a part of the online fanbase than men.
I'v never taken a census to be sure, but you could be right. But from what I can gather that's mainly connected to shipper wars/disagreements on this board (GW (limited to certain threads)---specific! This does not speak of the entire online fandom which may consist of a few hundred people whom I'm unaware of.) and people having problems with character clothing/looks/superficial characterizations, than with the character's interactions and development on the show. This is not to say there aren't viable people who have problems with the characters---because there are. I've just found within my limited space of online fandom that it's shipper dominated. But in the case of me, although I ship a multitude of fandoms ZENON being a personal fave at the moment; I care more so about characters decision making and interaction with the cast. If one looks at the episode thread at times, you'd find there are people who do discuss that aspect en masse. Shipping I find is the side fun---Zelenka/Ronon are a fantastic couple by the way. :D
OT:On a final note...I just find some of the women on this board to be more hateful towards the female characters---of course it's borderline character/actor hate. Which pisses me off to no end.


That being said, the writers have not done any of their lead females any favors with the choices they've made, and have only served to exacerbate the problem with decisions that weaken the characters' credibility. It's as if a women absolutely cannot have too much authority over any of the lead male characters, whether it's Cameron, Sheppard or McKay. And because her position is supposed to be the leader of an entire base, Weir has suffered the most over the past three years.
I disagree. I find that Weir has pulled her rank plenty of time. The decisions have been found to be wrong in more cases than not. She has much authority and just unfortunately makes crap decisions. Teyla, has been known to put the men in their place. Plus her decision making is on the fence...sometimes it's okay and near saintly and other times you're like, she's a saboteur!! :D


So, as my concern has always been, if they thrust Carter into the leadership position, but don't intend on giving her any authority over Sheppard and McKay, there really was no point in uprooting Weir in the first place.
I can't agree with this since of course I think Weir has trumped Sheppard plenty of times, more so than McKay. Further more, when facing danger and then compared to a person who has never as in the case of Weir---the issues are very different. I actually think Carter (this has nothing to do with her gender) will actually work well with both men.

Remember Carter is not only a military personnel, she is also a scientist. She will be able to adapt and connect to both men on an entirely different level that Weir most probably has been unable to do because she can't relate to either of their mentalities or idiosyncracies. This is not to say that Weir doesn't hold a special connection with both men which is built on respect and friendship. But Carter is on an even keel career-wise, and advanced in other areas.
Further more, I have heard this thrown out that John at times is reminiscint of Jack---she would be able to work with that. Actually I think Carter when looking at it from this angle (which I had not previously) would be indispensible to the team. She'd relate to Teyla for being a lone woman on a male dominate team, but also as leader of her people and she's seen and recognized other cultures so she could work with that intimately. Ronon may be slightly out of her league but he's similar to the ever so "mum" Teal'c (just using that "mum" aspect for similarity). I would find because she's military Ronon will be cool with her, since I think he completely respects military officials as he was in the military on Sateda. You see this paticularly in eps like Condemned where John is able to reel in Ronon just by saying it's an "order".
The more and more I think on your last statement, the less worried I am with Carter and her inception on the team. She'd bond on almost every significant level with the team that is needed. Darn, she's like the bloody sun.
If she did decide to push her authority, I really think John would give in because he does that with military authority most of the time. If he doesn't like what she has to say, sure he'd do his own thing or he wouldn't be John. Overall though, John does stand by and likes military decisions. McKay may put up a fight but he's still secretly in love with Carter and thinks she can do no wrong; plus I think she'd challenge and compliment his intellect like I saw in MacKay and Mrs. Miller.
This would depend if Carter is made leader, and Weir doesn't come back---but Weir is set to recurring, so I doubt that will be the case.

[Koshi700]

Well, in regards to Weir being reduced/Leaving, no I'm not happy about that at all. She isn't my favourite character, but I do like her, and I don't want to see anybody but her in charge of Atlantis.

As for Sam coming over to Atlantis, I have very mixed emotions about it. Part of me is cringing and hoping to god they don't turn McKay into the second fiddle with Carter being the one to shine all the time and "one uping" him all the time. She's coming into McKay's home now, he should be the one to shine. (not to mention Zelenka and the other scientists)

But on the other side, I really do like Carter, I will admit that she has gotten a bit boring in the last few seasons of SG1, mostly because she seems to not be able to do any wrong. But I'm hoping the TPTB will show a few of her flaws in SGA. I won't mind her coming over if TPTB do it right. Things could turn out really well if they do, but if it she starts showing up in 90 percent of every ep she's in and the development/plot lines for the other characters starts to suffer. Not so much.

Anyhoo, that's my two bits. :D I'm still looking forward to S4, with some trepidation I will admit, but I am still looking forward to it.

[jckfan55]

The problem with Carter in the last season and 1/2 (since I haven't seen the 2nd part of S10) is that they haven't given her much to do. I'm hoping on Atlantis for the episodes she's in, they give her something meaty (while not taking away from the Atlantis regulars.)

[Killdeer]

Can I ask a question here - it's a little off topic but since the issue has come up. Why do the people on this board have a problem with criticising an actor's acting choices/skills? I can understand having a problem with criticism of the actors on a personal level, their personal life, etc. But their acting is part of what creates the character, and it's being put out for public view, unlike their personal life, so what is the issue here? Actors' performances are critiqued all the time by every movie and tv critic out there - it's kind of part of the job. I'm just wondering why it seems to be a no-no on this board. Just a question. Not complaining, just trying to understand something that has perplexed me ever since joining this board.


She'd bond on almost every significant level with the team that is needed. Darn, she's like the bloody sun.

Vaberella, please don't take this as an attack, it's not meant that way. But I have to say it - that is just the scenario I'm dreading. I already have problems with Carter being written just too perfect and the fact that everyone loves her. If all the Atlantis team love her too, it will be too much. I'm sorry! :o

[vaberella]

Vaberella, please don't take this as an attack, it's not meant that way. But I have to say it - that is just the scenario I'm dreading. I already have problems with Carter being written just too perfect and the fact that everyone loves her. If all the Atlantis team love her too, it will be too much. I'm sorry! :o

No, no, no attack taken. I figured Jenks would jump on this before you. But as I was writing that statement that also came to mind and I was wondering who was going to snap on that statement. Carter does appear too much of a "perfect" fit. She's like the ALL woman thing, who can balance everyone out. They've done that so far with Teyla in relation to the team.

It does seem a bit too...easy. Which is why I can see where that can be a bit boring, where it can be presumed there would be no conflict. But I do think there is a chance for a great show and for great conflict because of this as well. We'll have to just wait and see, but I'm not too upset by it!

-----------------------


Can I ask a question here - it's a little off topic but since the issue has come up. Why do the people on this board have a problem with criticising an actor's acting choices/skills? I can understand having a problem with criticism of the actors on a personal level, their personal life, etc. But their acting is part of what creates the character, and it's being put out for public view, unlike their personal life, so what is the issue here? Actors' performances are critiqued all the time by every movie and tv critic out there - it's kind of part of the job. I'm just wondering why it seems to be a no-no on this board. Just a question. Not complaining, just trying to understand something that has perplexed me ever since joining this board.

Easy enough to answer. I just find acting skill and ability to be subjective a topic or idea to critique. The acting is used to sell us the character, but again the situation is more prevalent to the story. If it's a good story it's just emphasized by the actor's portrayal or utter destruction. I can say I found Ray Liotta's portrayal in Unlawful Entry to be superb and fantastic and other's could say he was crap. But then who am I as a non-actor can really judge the skill level of an actor.

There are people who are taught the skill, the actors of old were trained, sure they were picked up off the street for their looks but they were trained strenously in the art. Look at Angela Bassett she went to Yale to get her degree in acting. Of course you get the people now a days who just jump into it, but a lot of people were trained. I have no training so who am I to judge ability. I can say though I didn't get anything from her portrayal or I wasn't really convinced by the character because of the actor. But to say he or she was crap---takes a bit of nerve in my book.

Rachel Luttrell who went to places like The Russian Academy of Classical Ballet and Royal Conservatory of Music in Toronto, and then for me to say she sings like crap and or she can't dance is a lot of nerve, when all I have under my belt is a couple of degrees and an all girls catholic school.

I personally find it just a bit crap to think I could do it better.

[the dancer of spaz]

Again this is a given. No one cares about TH's portrayal. I don't see a single post discussing TH, her acting and what not. The focus is on the character.

OK. This was a seriously long post... And while I'm never one to back down from such a challenge, I'm just gonna clarify that I wasn't accusing anyone from this particular thread of talking about Torri Higginson. It was simply an observation that I was addressing in terms of Weir's viability. And, considering there are some virulent TH fans who seem to think that AT and her fans could never relate to the situation, I wanted to make the comparison.

That is all. We normally agree (I think), but I'm happy to respectfully disagree with you on the rest this time. :)

[Killdeer]

I just find acting skill and ability to be subjective a topic or idea to critique. ......I personally find it just a bit crap to think I could do it better.

I see your point, but I'm not sure I agree. It's all subjective, really. Whether a person loves Carter and hates Weir, or hates Carter and loves Weir, or any combination thereof, the reasons for that opinion are going to be subjective. Maybe I didn't quite understand what you were saying though. :S

On the second point, I guess I don't see how just because you (generic you) think a person does badly in something means you think you can do it better. If you did actually think that, yes, that would be arrogance. But one doesn't necessarily follow the other. I can watch someone doing a gymnastics floor routine on TV, for example, and realize that they really screwed up. It doesn't mean I think I can go out there and do even a fraction of what they did (not without serious injury anyway :D ). Am I making sense? A person who watches enough TV is going to have opinions about what makes good acting and what doesn't, because they've seen the difference. It doesn't mean they think they could take the actor's place.

Thanks for the reply though. And now back to topic.....

[vaberella]

I see your point, but I'm not sure I agree. It's all subjective, really. Whether a person loves Carter and hates Weir, or hates Carter and loves Weir, or any combination thereof, the reasons for that opinion are going to be subjective. Maybe I didn't quite understand what you were saying though. :S

On the second point, I guess I don't see how just because you (generic you) think a person does badly in something means you think you can do it better. If you did actually think that, yes, that would be arrogance. But one doesn't necessarily follow the other. I can watch someone doing a gymnastics floor routine on TV, for example, and realize that they really screwed up. It doesn't mean I think I can go out there and do even a fraction of what they did (not without serious injury anyway :D ). Am I making sense? A person who watches enough TV is going to have opinions about what makes good acting and what doesn't, because they've seen the difference. It doesn't mean they think they could take the actor's place.

Thanks for the reply though. And now back to topic.....

Oh my comparison between actor liking and ability is just to reinforce that it's subjective. Nothing more. I see your point on the gymnastic things, but that's when they make an error. If the actor doesn't forget the lines to the extent of my knowledge and the scene they pretty accomplished an objective. Just for relation----My sister was mimicking a scene from Buffy and doing Willow. Now Allison Hannigan is pretty quirky as an actress already so of course her approach to the lines are going to have the same feel. My sister who has a morbid personality, lacks severely in quirkiness did the same lines (she practices some acting skits at times) it's an entirely different character. But she made no discernable errors. To say who is good or bad would be dependent on the viewer and the impression they felt they were supposed to get and/or what they got from the scene rather than what the actor was thinking or was doing during the scene. <---That's a bit confusing too...

Hmmm...Okay, lets take an SGA scene. Whenever I see RL portraying Teyla during the time she's sensing an alien life form or some wraith---I think RL is a bit over dramatic for my tastes. Like I don't think all that was to necessary, anyway she creeps me out when she does it (that's probably the effect she's going for :D). But other people have disagreed with me and with valid points. In the place of the character that would be believable. Like when you enter into a place that creeps you out and you have this weird feeling and you kind of look around you and rub your arms and there's all this stuff going on in your face and actions----RL then is realistic. I mean I've been known to get nervous in some places and just want to run away. I'm sure if I were to look at myself I'd think I'm just OTT in rewind. So when I'm watching the scene I'm expecting RL to reify what my reactions would be I guess.

Anyway the point there is that she's giving me a projection of something and I was looking for something else I guess...although overall if I'm creeped out by her expressions she's then accomplished what she wanted for the scene, despite the fact that I thought it was OTT. Point in being, my opinion is subjective as a viewer and since I may not or may assume certain objectives when looking at the scene. Someone else might look at her and think it's oscar worthy. Perfect example of this is bloody Halle Berry in Monsters Ball. I won't critique her ability, although I have said I don't think she was worthy; especially compared to Sissy Spacek. But that's just me!:D So I avoid it in my discussion of the characters.


OK. This was a seriously long post... And while I'm never one to back down from such a challenge, I'm just gonna clarify that I wasn't accusing anyone from this particular thread of talking about Torri Higginson. It was simply an observation that I was addressing in terms of Weir's viability. And, considering there are some virulent TH fans who seem to think that AT and her fans could never relate to the situation, I wanted to make the comparison.

That is all. We normally agree (I think), but I'm happy to respectfully disagree with you on the rest this time. :)
Sorry Spaz if I come across agressive, I've been told I'm ferocious in my speech...other's have called me rabid. But it wasn't in anyway an attack, I just disagreed with some of the points you brought up. Well most of them!:D

I wasn't around for the AT comments. I came into the fandom towards the end of SGA S2---late, really late I know. Although in some of the eps of SG-1, I saw I wasn't a paticular fan, specifically the pilot. Sam annoyed me like you would not believe. I think I just developed an impatience with her character on screen, until one of my chatting friends gatelover12 introduced me to the ep where Sam and team ended on a planet where women were neither seen or heard. Then she pretty much had to fight for her independence and won---thats when she was in my highest esteem. I like strong women with a good head on their shoulders and yeah, who can fight. I personally think all women should take self defence classes or learn some form of martial arts or something.

Anyway, why I disagreed with much of the direction of the comments on the character "dissection" was mainly because so far no one has mentioned the actor playing the role. I personally haven't seen much confusion on when there is a critique of the character like Weir versus the many underlying actor bashing by using the name of the character as in the case of AT and RL. I think something I find disturbing is the feeling that I get; to be told not to critique the character it just seems some people think we're bashing the actress---so then we should just forget the character and just bash the writers for the writing. My case is rather I like the show and could love all the characters, I'm more concerned with helping the style by explaining what I find faulty with situations and how it was handled and give the writers an objective opinion.

I disagreed with your other points, mainly because I didn't agree with them anyway when I read them in other threads. In paticular the crap that the men can't write for women. When people say that I just get a bit annoyed considering the fact that those who like any of the female characters like them because of the characters as portrayed by the writers. They created and wrote the character then put an actress in it's place who admittedly gives it life and substance. But still those words are not the words of the actor but those written for them by the character.

Like in the case of Ben Bowder vs. JF who would I have preferred as Shep--I couldn't even tell you who I preferred. Both are good actors, I liked their past projects...so I think no matter between the two who played the role of Shep I would have been happy. I'm glad JF is there because I'm used to his portrayal but for me to decide between the two is not something I could have done. The statement above was just to reinforce my statement that the actor really bares no bearing on the entire character for me. As long as you fit the description of the character, I'm all good. :D

[Atlantis Angel]

Am I happy about Weir leaving? Can't say I am. I like her as a leader. She's a very strong willed and intelligent woman. So I don't really agree with her character being reduced in Atlantis.

When it comes to Carter, I am rather mixed. I like the idea of having her brought over, especially given her's and McKay's history. But at the same time, I don't want her character to overtake McKay or any other Atlantis character. I suppose I can only hope that the writers incorporate Carter into Atlantis really well, where she is still vital but not the center of attention all the time. Atlantis is not SG-1, and I wouldn't want Atlantis to just turn into another SG-1.

[jenks]

A Now this is not to defend anyone who is the bashing the actor because of the character of Weir, I just personally haven't seen it happen. If they are, they need to get a life. I've seen this more so in the case of AT and RL.




How do you work that one out exactly? You can't pin all the blame on how Weir is portrayed on screen as the writers fault, Torri plays a big part in it too.

[expendable_crewman]

To part of Expendable Creman's post...

Actually the Asuran issue can be blamed on Weir to an extent. She disclosed too much information at an early time. Oberoth was going to send her back to where ever she came without any one getting hurt until she took it upon herself to try to convince him and then let it slip that she's from Atlantis...and then all hell broke loose.

She played by the rules until she went against her lead team's council, and tried to convince Oberoth. This is why I hold her at fault. If you notice with John he makes it a point NEVER to disclose where he's from. It's seen from S2 until S3, when he encounters people he avoids the question, evades, or gives a non-commital answer, the others stay mum OR they also play the evasion game. Weir did none of this---she seemed to have forgotten that Atlantis is playing dead----and the warnings/concerns of Teyla enforced by John's own doubts and she went and gave forth information she should never had.

Then they took them prisoner and then we have the drama we have. So now the Asurans are more so our enemy than something else. I always hold off that Atlantians should have an off world base with their people on it, and should have things deferred there---just to minimize casualties...but ~sigh~. Drama continues to erupt putting our peeps in vast amount of trouble and make them foolish and repetitive in their mistakes.Actually, Weir did not tell Oberoth about Atlantis.

Progeny SPOILERS:
In trying to negotiate with Oberoth, Weir asks for power modules. Oberoth asks if her power need is for something of Lantean design. She answers yes. She says she found a settlement and the expedition occupies it, but even this isn't a give-away, because Oberoth asks where her settlement is, and later uses mind-probes to get the information. I never heard Weir mention Atlantis. She does the same duck and weave that Sheppard likes: her settlement, she says, is on the edge of the galaxy in an area teeming with Wraith.
Holding Weir at fault for requesting power modules is like blaming Teyla in season one (Underground) for getting the Genii all worked up by telling Cowen that the expedition had awakened all of the Wraith. Actually, Teyla was way more specific. In Progeny, the mind-probes tell Oberoth what he wants to know, not Weir. Or we could blame McKay for ...
... re-writing the Asurans' base code and causing Return Pt. 2.
Really, we could do this all day-- blame an episode's drama on a character's blunder, real or imagined, when the fact is someone has to do exposition of one kind or another in order to move the story. This is the part of the story I like, btw, especially when the thing ties into character growth, be it something that should not have been said or something that should not have been done. It increases the stakes. Heightens the drama. It's a sign of good, layered storytelling. If the catalyst is always external, where's the fun?

In the case of Progeny ...
... the mind-probe revealed the occupation of Atlantis, and that the city was alive and well and free of Ancients, whom the Asurans were prevented from killing. Weir disclosed none of this, unless she did it while getting her brain poked.
If Weir hadn't gone along for the ride, then another character would have been tasked to get the story moving. A negotiator wasn't needed. Just someone, anyone, who could ask, "Say, can you spare a ZPM or two?"

IMO, putting the peeps in a vast amount of danger is the point. That was the gist of my previous post, and why the character Weir, besides being the person who says "do it" and "stay safe" appears to have little to do.

Also, last I checked, the expedition personnel were human. Which means the Asurans were already (as in a minimum of 10,000 years) the expedition's mortal enemy. See Progeny for its Hot Zone reference.

[the dancer of spaz]

Sorry Spaz if I come across agressive, I've been told I'm ferocious in my speech...other's have called me rabid. But it wasn't in anyway an attack, I just disagreed with some of the points you brought up. Well most of them!:D


No worries. In my almost 3 years of coming to this forum on a regular basis, I know I've been far from diplomatic with certain topics. :) "Leadership" being one of them.

And I'm rather long-winded too, so I can relate to that as well.

At any rate, I'll address one thing that I wanted to clarify: I agree that it's impossible to say "all men can't write for women," because there are so many logical fallacies in such a statement, it's not even funny. However, based on our (collective) experience with the TPTB of the franchise, it seems to be very difficult for them to get away from focusing on the men. And when they do focus on the women, it's typically in relation or regards to their interaction with the men, whether it's a fellow main character or a guest star.

First, Atlantis' interactions are literal duplicates of SG-1. They were able to successfully mirror Jack/Daniel banter in Shep/McKay (yet tried and failed imo with Cam/Daniel). They were able to recreate the Jack/Teal'c "action hero and his stoic, he-man friend" dynamic with Sheppard/Ronon. Liz and Teyla, like Sam, are the ones who mediate between the two lead males, appropriately rolling their eyes and throwing up their hands in dismay when the guys get out of control. Ronon, like Teal'c, grunts when he's irritated. But beyond that?

Well, luckily scifi fans are good at looking past what's written, and thank heavens the actors are great at conveying emotion and connection through simple looks and gestures. Otherwise, Liz and Teyla (and Ronon, to some extent) would have zero purpose.

Secondly, while some fans infer probably more than was intended when it comes to ship between characters, I can't believe that after 10 years any of the potentially "shippy" moments happen on accident. For some strange reason, TPTB find it very advantageous to throw in some contradictory hints at times.

I say that because Sam/Jack became such a collossal issue from all camps for years, and one would think that they would try to avoid it at all costs with the spin-off - yet they haven't. As if Sam/Jack wasn't enough of a problem on SG-1, they've gone so far as to write in moments between Shep and Liz and Shep and Teyla. It's kind of hard for a ship group to concede that their preferred pairing remains in fanon when stuff like "Conversion" and "The Long Goodbye" are so haplessly thrown into canon like they were.

And even though Shep is obviously the man-whore of the group, because Liz and Teyla have been so neglected in the development department for three years, some are left to assume that their sole purpose is merely to serve the plot - or Sheppard - when necessary.

Maybe I'm being too hard on the writers of the series, and I'm definitely coming off as a broken record. But really, I don't think the writers would have had such a hard time making Weir viable and valuable, had Elizabeth been Ethan Weir from the beginning.

[vaberella]

This is a massive digression of the purpose and direction of the thread so it's in spoiler caps.

Actually, Weir did not tell
Oberoth about Atlantis.Progeny SPOILERS:
In trying to negotiate with Oberoth, Weir asks for power
modules. Oberoth asks if her power need is for something of Lantean
design. She answers yes. She says she found a settlement and the expedition occupies it, but even this isn't a give-away, because Oberoth asks
where her settlement is, and later uses mind-probes to get the information.
I never heard Weir mention Atlantis. She does the same duck and weave
that Sheppard likes: her settlement, she says, is on the edge of the
galaxy in an area teeming with Wraith.
She asks for the ZPM! How many planets so far have we come across have ZPMs? 3 or 4? Most of them like in the Brotherhood or even in Childhood's End are just simple people who either don't know anything about it or look at it like it's some religious prize. If I had them and she said she needed them, I'd be assuming she's living on one of those city-ships as well, this is not brain surgery. She even says as much to Oberoth----no mind probe needed. She released enough information to cause a the Asurans to search.
You do remember Oberoth were going to let them leave UNTIL she went back against her teams council to ask for information, right? These guys hate the Ancients and are willing to destroy ANYTHING related to the ancients. Further more she gave them enough information for them to probe their (the teams) minds and find out all they needed to know to want to take out the planet.
Her people clearly told her not to trust these guys. She completely and willingly released information that was to be kept secret in order to appeal to a people who were completely against helping her in the first place. They said they wouldn't help with the wraith, and wouldn't help her in any way unless for her to get back home. That being said, she should have called it quits, but she doesn't do that. She gives up the information and now they have another enemy they don't need.
Again, John has NEVER done this (at least in S2 and S3)... the only incident near comparable was The Tower, where both Weir and John were at fault for giving that guy the ATA gene. Although admittedly it was a lame ep (although for character development purposes it's quite interesting ep), which I liked.


Holding Weir at fault for requesting power modules is like blaming Teyla in season one (Underground) for getting the Genii all worked up by telling Cowen that the expedition had awakened all of the Wraith. Actually, Teyla was way more specific. In Progeny, the mind-probes tell Oberoth what he wants to know, not Weir. Or we could blame McKay for ... ... re-writing the Asurans' base code and causing Return Pt. 2.
Uh, what are you getting at? I need an explanation on how this is the same. The Genii were worked up for several reasons, John had C4 and showed it to them and John and Rodney both found their underground tunnel door. These people didn't get worked up for any other reason. Had John not been wanting to garner a deal----but lets say the deal went through. There would never have been problem had John and Rodney not found the Tunnel which led to the underground civilization. Teyla tells John she's surprised by them and Cowen even reinforces that Teyla was unaware. So I don't know where the Genii would have been worked up by what Teyla said? Plus, before Teyla even said anything about the wraith awakening, Cowen was completely explaining why he wanted the C4 and what his plan was to take out the wraith. Teyla was just informing him that they were all awoken. She didn't disclose any information about Atlantis or security issues the way Weir did.
Further more, for a bit more clarification---let's go back to Rising, Teyla even clearly states that this is prophesized. That the eventual awakening was going to happen, the when wasn't the certainty, which says to me that most of these people knew or were aware that this would eventually happen. The Genii just wasn't sure it was going to happen so soon when they were so close to final preparations, possibly about 5 years from the mark.
So all in all the Genii would have been fine and probably would NEVER even had known about the wraith all being awakened if John and Rodney had never found the tunnel. That being said...well there's nothing else to say.
Weir's actions with Oberoth were fairly unilateral which was similar to the way John was to the Genii, which would be a fairer comparison. Something in which Weir totally reprimanded John about. She was willing to go pretty far to entice an unknown entity. So again the situation in Progeny was her fault.
As for McKay, he offered that as a solution and Weir gave the okay.


Really, we could do this all day-- blame an episode's drama on a character's blunder, real or imagined, when the fact is someone has to do exposition of one kind or another in order to move the story. This is the part of the story I like, btw, especially when the thing ties into character growth, be it something that should not have been said or something that should not have been done. It increases the stakes. Heightens the drama. It's a sign of good, layered storytelling. If the catalyst
is always external, where's the fun?
I'm not going to sit and accept the idea that it's "plot development" and be done when a good story as Progeny could have been better. Also, I'm not saying that there can't be layering and character development. I just think stupid mistakes are not the way of doing it. As I stated before JOHN after 1 has never stated that they were from Atlantis, he always plays the evasion game. It's seen in every episode. Even when poor Carson was screwed up in Irresistable John was upset that he (Carson) told Lucius about Atlantis. This was to remain a secret. For her to make a "blunder" like that is just a "WTF" are you doing moment. This is not S1, this is not even S2, we're in S3 and she has reinforced the idea to the others that she doesn't want people knowing about Atlantis. She didn't have to say the words she gave freely enough information.
What makes this even worse is the fact that she's a diplomat and negotiator and Oberoth was able to pull so much information out of her. I was shocked. She clearly stated to Oberoth that they were from a Lantean settlement in design and would need a ZPM to help power. That was enough to peak his interest. She released that information. That's a bad mistake to the point of stupidity.
As I've also made clear, drama can be built without exemplifying the
stupidity of characters. Look at X-Files, shoot Buffy and Angel.
Sure they had their stupid moments, but again majority of the time great
drama none of the dumdum-dyanmics. And what makes it worse is that this is occuring by the leader of Atlantis who should be setting and enforcing the bar.
This is where there is the complaint, especially from people like
myself who probably expect more from the characters. These characters in my opinion are great. Weir could have been superb, but continously she's
marginalized and unfortunately falls into the id-category when it comes
to these situations.


In the case of Progeny ...
... the mind-probe revealed the occupation of Atlantis, and
that the city was alive and well and free of Ancients, whom the Asurans
were prevented from killing. Weir disclosed none of this, unless she
did it while getting her brain poked.
If Weir hadn't gone along for the ride, then another character would
have been tasked to get the story moving. A negotiator wasn't needed.
Just someone, anyone, who could ask, "Say, can you spare a ZPM or two?"

Actually that wouldn't necessarily be the case. McKay could have been nosing around and inadvertently fell onto something and caused a disruption which could have easily resulted in the same incident without the knowledge of the ZPM.
He was roaming around the base freely too. ZPM did not have to enter
the equation. There are other avenues, and this is why I try to at
times, and sometimes I forget to follow my critiques with possible
alternatives. Have you seen this part of the thread? or the S2, S3 thread before the eps aired? The viewers are walking speculation theorists and come up with great possible story alternatives. The result could have been the same but without the disclosure of evidence so people can say 'plot device'---and we move on.
Those characters could have easily maintained their intelligence at the
same time resulted in the same drama without anyone really being at
fault and appearing inept. This is again my problem with Michael. We're no longer in S1 or S2, at this point in S3---use some brains, even if it could cause a problem. Weir wasn't on top of her game there and it resulted into a nearly catastrophic problem, which is still eminent.


IMO, putting the peeps in a vast amount of danger is the point. That was the gist of my previous post, and why the character Weir, besides being the person who says "do it" and "stay safe" appears to have little to do.
Also, last I checked, the expedition personnel were human. Which
means the Asurans were already (as in a minimum of 10,000 years) the
expedition's mortal enemy. See Progeny for its Hot Zone
reference.
That's interesting you should say this. Why then did the Asurans not
just eliminate all the humans in the PG?
Oberoth even said others had accidentally ended up there. Further more, when he was ready to send the Atlantis Ex home, which gave me the impression that other's who stumbled upon them were sent home. If he was such a moratl enemy to the expedition he wouldn't have sent them home, in the first place. He doesn't care about the humans, he cares
about the Atlantis civilization (just the city-ship).
Lastly, I always wondered why Weir didn't have McKay relay a message to the people on Atlantis to get the hell out...since he was all over the comps. Something's just don't make sense.

[vaberella]

No worries. In my almost 3 years of coming to this forum on a regular basis, I know I've been far from diplomatic with certain topics. :) "Leadership" being one of them.

And I'm rather long-winded too, so I can relate to that as well.

At any rate, I'll address one thing that I wanted to clarify: I agree that it's impossible to say "all men can't write for women," because there are so many logical fallacies in such a statement, it's not even funny. However, based on our (collective) experience with the TPTB of the franchise, it seems to be very difficult for them to get away from focusing on the men. And when they do focus on the women, it's typically in relation or regards to their interaction with the men, whether it's a fellow main character or a guest star.

First, Atlantis' interactions are literal duplicates of SG-1. They were able to successfully mirror Jack/Daniel banter in Shep/McKay (yet tried and failed imo with Cam/Daniel). They were able to recreate the Jack/Teal'c "action hero and his stoic, he-man friend" dynamic with Sheppard/Ronon. Liz and Teyla, like Sam, are the ones who mediate between the two lead males, appropriately rolling their eyes and throwing up their hands in dismay when the guys get out of control. Ronon, like Teal'c, grunts when he's irritated. But beyond that?

Well, luckily scifi fans are good at looking past what's written, and thank heavens the actors are great at conveying emotion and connection through simple looks and gestures. Otherwise, Liz and Teyla (and Ronon, to some extent) would have zero purpose.

Secondly, while some fans infer probably more than was intended when it comes to ship between characters, I can't believe that after 10 years any of the potentially "shippy" moments happen on accident. For some strange reason, TPTB find it very advantageous to throw in some contradictory hints at times.

I say that because Sam/Jack became such a collossal issue from all camps for years, and one would think that they would try to avoid it at all costs with the spin-off - yet they haven't. As if Sam/Jack wasn't enough of a problem on SG-1, they've gone so far as to write in moments between Shep and Liz and Shep and Teyla. It's kind of hard for a ship group to concede that their preferred pairing remains in fanon when stuff like "Conversion" and "The Long Goodbye" are so haplessly thrown into canon like they were.

And even though Shep is obviously the man-whore of the group, because Liz and Teyla have been so neglected in the development department for three years, some are left to assume that their sole purpose is merely to serve the plot - or Sheppard - when necessary.

Maybe I'm being too hard on the writers of the series, and I'm definitely coming off as a broken record. But really, I don't think the writers would have had such a hard time making Weir viable and valuable, had Elizabeth been Ethan Weir from the beginning.
No she'd just be, dare I say it, Hammond-like?! :D

I agree with most of your points and I do have a bit of resentment on the way the women are written. I have said it before and got redded for it, but I saw the women as more like glorified extras. They as you say, are developed mainly through the male interaction. It's defeatest. Sure they have had their eps, but comparing the women to the men there is a huge polarization in their gender-specific development. I have to say I think Ronon is a fairly established and well developed character...don't get me wrong we get a lot of grunting but this season and definitely S2 provided with a lot of direction and depth to Ronon which actually moves him higher up than both Teyla and Weir in regards to their successful presence the last 3 years.
Again I also, don't want to say the men can't or don't know how to write for women...but maybe they do need a bit more advisement, or something. I do strongly believe they want to make the women strong but not against the male's in a male dominated society and this is pretty much the problem of most feminist and their struggles. We as women are defined against the men and essentialistically are identified through men. But then there is also the debate that the women do have strong fan followings of women who are critical overall of their characterization but still like them. It's sort of confusing dillemma I guess the more and more I think on it.
Men are writing for women and doing a decent job for the women to have strong fanbases abut are also finding difficulty in balancing the idea of the women in male (gendered) positions and then having the women appear marginalized by default. It's interesting to say the least. Has there been any stories written by women writers on SGA or SG1 you can point me too so then I can make a proper characterization of women? Because for SGA the most popular eps for Weir or Teyla were written by men, not women.

As for Shep being a man-whore, he can mack all the ladies he wants. I don't go into kirking crap. Plus in my heart of hearts he's gonna end up McKay...:D I started out a slasher, I will go down a slasher. I still believe in some universe Jack and Dan are married. :D

[expendable_crewman]

This is a massive digression of the purpose and direction of the thread so it's in spoiler caps.

She asks for the ZPM! How many planets so far have we come across have ZPMs? 3 or 4? Most of them like in the Brotherhood or even in Childhood's End are just simple people who either don't know anything about it or look at it like it's some religious prize. If I had them and she said she needed them, I'd be assuming she's living on one of those city-ships as well, this is not brain surgery. She even says as much to Oberoth----no mind probe needed. She released enough information to cause a the Asurans to search.
You do remember Oberoth were going to let them leave UNTIL she went back against her teams council to ask for information, right? These guys hate the Ancients and are willing to destroy ANYTHING related to the ancients. Further more she gave them enough information for them to probe their (the teams) minds and find out all they needed to know to want to take out the planet.
Her people clearly told her not to trust these guys. She completely and willingly released information that was to be kept secret in order to appeal to a people who were completely against helping her in the first place. They said they wouldn't help with the wraith, and wouldn't help her in any way unless for her to get back home. That being said, she should have called it quits, but she doesn't do that. She gives up the information and now they have another enemy they don't need.
Again, John has NEVER done this (at least in S2 and S3)... the only incident near comparable was The Tower, where both Weir and John were at fault for giving that guy the ATA gene. Although admittedly it was a lame ep (although for character development purposes it's quite interesting ep), which I liked.


Uh, what are you getting at? I need an explanation on how this is the same. The Genii were worked up for several reasons, John had C4 and showed it to them and John and Rodney both found their underground tunnel door. These people didn't get worked up for any other reason. Had John not been wanting to garner a deal----but lets say the deal went through. There would never have been problem had John and Rodney not found the Tunnel which led to the underground civilization. Teyla tells John she's surprised by them and Cowen even reinforces that Teyla was unaware. So I don't know where the Genii would have been worked up by what Teyla said? Plus, before Teyla even said anything about the wraith awakening, Cowen was completely explaining why he wanted the C4 and what his plan was to take out the wraith. Teyla was just informing him that they were all awoken. She didn't disclose any information about Atlantis or security issues the way Weir did.
Further more, for a bit more clarification---let's go back to Rising, Teyla even clearly states that this is prophesized. That the eventual awakening was going to happen, the when wasn't the certainty, which says to me that most of these people knew or were aware that this would eventually happen. The Genii just wasn't sure it was going to happen so soon when they were so close to final preparations, possibly about 5 years from the mark.
So all in all the Genii would have been fine and probably would NEVER even had known about the wraith all being awakened if John and Rodney had never found the tunnel. That being said...well there's nothing else to say.
Weir's actions with Oberoth were fairly unilateral which was similar to the way John was to the Genii, which would be a fairer comparison. Something in which Weir totally reprimanded John about. She was willing to go pretty far to entice an unknown entity. So again the situation in Progeny was her fault.
As for McKay, he offered that as a solution and Weir gave the okay.


I'm not going to sit and accept the idea that it's "plot development" and be done when a good story as Progeny could have been better. Also, I'm not saying that there can't be layering and character development. I just think stupid mistakes are not the way of doing it. As I stated before JOHN after 1 has never stated that they were from Atlantis, he always plays the evasion game. It's seen in every episode. Even when poor Carson was screwed up in Irresistable John was upset that he (Carson) told Lucius about Atlantis. This was to remain a secret. For her to make a "blunder" like that is just a "WTF" are you doing moment. This is not S1, this is not even S2, we're in S3 and she has reinforced the idea to the others that she doesn't want people knowing about Atlantis. She didn't have to say the words she gave freely enough information.
What makes this even worse is the fact that she's a diplomat and negotiator and Oberoth was able to pull so much information out of her. I was shocked. She clearly stated to Oberoth that they were from a Lantean settlement in design and would need a ZPM to help power. That was enough to peak his interest. She released that information. That's a bad mistake to the point of stupidity.
As I've also made clear, drama can be built without exemplifying the
stupidity of characters. Look at X-Files, shoot Buffy and Angel.
Sure they had their stupid moments, but again majority of the time great
drama none of the dumdum-dyanmics. And what makes it worse is that this is occuring by the leader of Atlantis who should be setting and enforcing the bar.
This is where there is the complaint, especially from people like
myself who probably expect more from the characters. These characters in my opinion are great. Weir could have been superb, but continously she's
marginalized and unfortunately falls into the id-category when it comes
to these situations.


Actually that wouldn't necessarily be the case. McKay could have been nosing around and inadvertently fell onto something and caused a disruption which could have easily resulted in the same incident without the knowledge of the ZPM.
He was roaming around the base freely too. ZPM did not have to enter
the equation. There are other avenues, and this is why I try to at
times, and sometimes I forget to follow my critiques with possible
alternatives. Have you seen this part of the thread? or the S2, S3 thread before the eps aired? The viewers are walking speculation theorists and come up with great possible story alternatives. The result could have been the same but without the disclosure of evidence so people can say 'plot device'---and we move on.
Those characters could have easily maintained their intelligence at the
same time resulted in the same drama without anyone really being at
fault and appearing inept. This is again my problem with Michael. We're no longer in S1 or S2, at this point in S3---use some brains, even if it could cause a problem. Weir wasn't on top of her game there and it resulted into a nearly catastrophic problem, which is still eminent.


That's interesting you should say this. Why then did the Asurans not
just eliminate all the humans in the PG?
Oberoth even said others had accidentally ended up there. Further more, when he was ready to send the Atlantis Ex home, which gave me the impression that other's who stumbled upon them were sent home. If he was such a moratl enemy to the expedition he wouldn't have sent them home, in the first place. He doesn't care about the humans, he cares
about the Atlantis civilization (just the city-ship).
Lastly, I always wondered why Weir didn't have McKay relay a message to the people on Atlantis to get the hell out...since he was all over the comps. Something's just don't make sense.I'll try to take this on.

In the context of my comparison between Weir asking for a ZPM and Teyla ignoring Sheppard's warning (cutting him off, actually) and letting it out of the bag that the Wraith were coming in force ... we were discussing (I think) how opening one's mouth in a scary universe can lead to issues. Simple, straightforward. I'm not really interested in a Genii or Underground discussion per se. The Teyla reference was a sample from another ep using another character that fit what looked like (IMO) your definition of a screw up, as you applied it to Weir.

We went from "Weir said she / they were from Atlantis" to "what was she thinking asking for a ZPM?" I think I did this one to death on the Progeny thread. If we can agree she did not say she was from Atlantis, then hopefully we can also agree to disagree on the rest.

"I'm not going to sit and accept the idea that it's "plot development" and be done when a good story as Progeny could have been better. "

I sometimes like to re-write the eps in my head. I even dabble in fanfic. For the most part, though, I take the eps as given. It helps me stay in context.

I think that's what I'm trying to tell you. Getting bent out of shape because it was Weir who mentioned ZPMs and got the story moving would take me out of the Stargate universe and drop me off somewhere else. (That's not how I "do" TV.) I don't even see Weir asking for the ZPM as a reflection of her skills as a negotiator. I realize that you do, and that's fine. We'll just have to disagree here.

"Why then did the Asurans not just eliminate all the humans in the PG?"

Progeny spoiler:
Hmm. Quote: "We will eradicate the Wraith at the time of our choosing."

Now there's a guy on a power trip ...

Anyway, watch Hot Zone. To answer your question, whatever the reason the Asurans have or did not, I doubt that it was for lack of trying.Back to the topic, whatever that was.

[expendable_crewman]

Maybe I'm being too hard on the writers of the series, and I'm definitely coming off as a broken record. But really, I don't think the writers would have had such a hard time making Weir viable and valuable, had Elizabeth been Ethan Weir from the beginning.It's funny you mention this. Not too long ago I got talked into imagining Common Ground as though O'Neill were base commander instead of Weir. Up until that moment, I was kind of neutral on the whole "the writers write better for the guys" thing. I'm now a believer, but I'm not convinced yet how that plays across the continuum.

What I mean is ...

If O'Neill were in charge of Atlantis, would a SGA writer have allowed an enemy to believe O'Neill would exchange a team commander for an ally in a life/death swap? Wouldn't that be like saying Jack had shown weakness in the past? Or, worse, that a bad guy out there perceived Jack as weak? That's not typical in Stargate with Hammond, O'Neill, or Landry. The writers sort of like these guys no-nonsense. They are to be taken seriously.

But is it necessarily a bad thing that an enemy saw Weir capable of this sort of weakness, since she did not cave in, thus proving her strength? Should I feel bad that she's written differently than other base commanders?

Not sure, TBH. Some of my best Stargate moments came from the softer nature of Atlantis' commander. Vulnerable ... good or bad? Is she written this way because she's civilian and not military? Or is it female and not male?

Again, not sure.

But I did (once I got into it) have some fun putting O'Neill in Weir's spot.

Until I realized the entire ep breaks down as to Kolya's motivation: come on, who would meet Jack once and think he'd give in to that sort of thing?

So maybe it was best that we had Weir and she was written as she was.

[MckaySucks]

Carter will add balance to the idiocy of Mckay, he was a screw up in SG-1 then they all of a sudden turned him into the savior, what a joke, wake up. With SG-1 lasting 10 seasons, its formula worked with more people then on this board, Mckay was on the end of bad work and people liked it with the ratings. Perhaps Carter will add a yen to mckays yang to balance things out, one can only hope.....

[Skydiver]

i am lookihng forward to sam joining the cast. not only because i'm a sam fan, but also because i personally find both female characters on the show to be very weak.

i am very uncertain however, about how it'll be handled. I really hope that it's handled well and that sam isn't just there to prop up the show.

i do wish that liz was on the show however.

I know that that makes sam's place a bit problamatic. I wouldn't want her on shep's team, nor do i want her to be the technobabble girl. So, the rumors of where she is, as unfortunate as that is for some, i think it's really the only place she'd fit other than taking Caldwell's place on the daedy

[vaberella]

~sigh~ I did say I was not going to continue this...but whatever I guess.


I'll try to take this on.

In the context of my comparison between Weir asking for a ZPM and Teyla ignoring Sheppard's warning (cutting him off, actually) and letting it out of the bag that the Wraith were coming in force ... we were discussing (I think) how opening one's mouth in a scary universe can lead to issues. Simple, straightforward. I'm not really interested in a Genii or Underground discussion per se. The Teyla reference was a sample from another ep using another character that fit what looked like (IMO) your definition of a screw up, as you applied it to Weir.
But, what I hope I pointed out was that I didn't find it a viable argument because the situation was already out course and out of Teyla's hand. She may have cut him off but that means nothing because the direction was already a path ending up in disaster from the moment John showed the C4. Now that was how it really all began and was dangerous. Also the reason why he got his ass reamed by Weir.

Let me briefly restate my point and I'll make another which I thought I had done earlier. This is not to completely throw out your comparison but the mistakes in S1 are extremely extremely different than making illogical mistakes done in S3. Oberoth was uninterested from the beginning. She KNOWS that Atlantis is to remain dead. You don't give anything away that would state otherwise, period. For mistakes like that to be happening in S3 as opposed to S1 is just stupidity.


We went from "Weir said she / they were from Atlantis" to "what was she thinking asking for a ZPM?" I think I did this one to death on the Progeny thread. If we can agree she did not say she was from Atlantis, then hopefully we can also agree to disagree on the rest.
But it wouldn't matter because she did say she was from a Lantean base---actually when they first showed up, she clearly stated we were from an "Ancient outpost". <---This is what she says on first meeting. Now this could have been connected to any human planet on earth right? But on her second meeting she says she needs the modules and affirms Oberoth's assumption that it was a city-ship she was at. What does that mean? She released too much information. Period. She says without saying directly, "I'm from Atlantis" I have a city-ship and I need a ZPM for it. How many city-ships are running around in that bloody galaxy have we seen, that's working? So far I've counted 2---Athos and the place in The Tower. Anyway she gave up so much information---including they were from a city-ship (which I think Oberoth was going to destroy no matter where it was the key city-ship or not) AND it's location. She even described the location without giving specific directions. I don't even know if Oberoth new the city-ship by the name Atlantis, I figured he knew the place by some other name. He didn't even know what is a ZPM (Weir had to clarify). Again this just reaffirms to me that no matter what city-ship he would have taken it out and she did affirm she was from a Lantean city-ship without mind probe. So I can't agree with you.


"I'm not going to sit and accept the idea that it's "plot development" and be done when a good story as Progeny could have been better. "

I sometimes like to re-write the eps in my head. I even dabble in fanfic. For the most part, though, I take the eps as given. It helps me stay in context.
That's cool, I like giving feedback when I have a problem. Especially when a character is made to look inept and stupid.
As a side note to your earlier statement about ZPM's, McKay was the first to ask for ZPM's to Niam before Weir even met Oberoth, but they were still going to let them go home.


I think that's what I'm trying to tell you. Getting bent out of shape because it was Weir who mentioned ZPMs and got the story moving would take me out of the Stargate universe and drop me off somewhere else. (That's not how I "do" TV.) I don't even see Weir asking for the ZPM as a reflection of her skills as a negotiator. I realize that you do, and that's fine. We'll just have to disagree here.
As I stated several times before and I'll state again, I have a problem with Weir giving up too much information which lead to the result we had when there should never have happened in such a way. There were plenty of avenues, Weir just looked incompetent. As to disagreeing, fine, I don't have a single problem with that. She was negotiating--which really wasn't a negotiation since Oberoth basically told her "no" twice.


"Why then did the Asurans not just eliminate all the humans in the PG?"

Progeny spoiler:
Hmm. Quote: "We will eradicate the Wraith at the time of our choosing."

Now there's a guy on a power trip ...

Anyway, watch Hot Zone. To answer your question, whatever the reason the Asurans have or did not, I doubt that it was for lack of trying.Back to the topic, whatever that was.
Okay how does my question on humans have anything to do with your quote. It says wraith (which I know), I'm asking for humans. I've watched "Hot Zone" plenty of times, the Asurans evovled from that virus. If they wanted to kill the humans in the galaxy they could have---centuries ago and just been left with the Wraith, who would have just starved to death, shoot they could have killed them too. The Asurans haven't from what I can gather been aggressive to the other people within the galaxy, so I'm still trying to grasp your point. So you think they tried to kill the humans? They were going to take out Weir pretty fast if it wasn't for Carson's tech (which the people of PG obviously don't have) and John's (I guess) ancient gene. I'm still not getting your point.

I definitely won't retread these waters again, since women writing on the show is far more interesting topic whch relates to the topic at hand in an offhanded way.

[vaberella]

i am lookihng forward to sam joining the cast. not only because i'm a sam fan, but also because i personally find both female characters on the show to be very weak.

i am very uncertain however, about how it'll be handled. I really hope that it's handled well and that sam isn't just there to prop up the show.

i do wish that liz was on the show however.

I know that that makes sam's place a bit problamatic. I wouldn't want her on shep's team, nor do i want her to be the technobabble girl. So, the rumors of where she is, as unfortunate as that is for some, i think it's really the only place she'd fit other than taking Caldwell's place on the daedy

Yeah she won't be on Shep's team, JM confirmed that it would remain a 4 person team. So there won't be a fifth added to the team. I do know what you mean about problem, but in an earlier post I was actually looking forward to her coming now---the more I can see her relating to the characters.

Don't get me wrong, I see your concerns and they have ground. But I like Sam in some of the other eps, and I was recommended some great eps to watch---thanks suse :D. So I'll be doing that. I do have faith this will be a good season and this might be the season with JM at the helm for some really great development SD and probably a new avenue in expanding the characters.

I have also seen talk of some people finding her boring in S9/S10 in SG1, so this could be a could chance to really blow her up and they have 14 eps to do that. All in all I think it could work out. Although it affects Weir's presence, I see this also as a chance for the writers to probably reacquaint themselves with the character and really hone her for parts of the season and maybe S5. :)

[Killdeer]

As I stated several times before and I'll state again, I have a problem with Weir giving up too much information which lead to the result we had when there should never have happened in such a way. There were plenty of avenues, Weir just looked incompetent. As to disagreeing, fine, I don't have a single problem with that. She was negotiating--which really wasn't a negotiation since Oberoth basically told her "no" twice.

Ok I get that you have issues with Weir for this, and while I don't agree necessarily, I understand your viewpoint. But what I'm trying to understand is....you seem to be condemning Weir based on this mistake, yet you support Carter when she made a mistake just as bad or worse in Gemini, and that was after eight years, not just three. And she knew what RepliCarter was. Remember that in Progeny, they thought these people were Ancients, at least initially. They didn't have any reason not to trust them yet, other than the standard caution, not like Carter had with RepliCarter. Carter had been tortured by Fifth-it always seemed incredible to me that she trusted RepliCarter. Not to mention her actions in Insiders. I guess I just don't see how this is proof that Weir is any worse than Carter. Not an attack-I just don't understand.



I've watched "Hot Zone" plenty of times, the Asurans evovled from that virus.

Actually, I thought the Asurans created the virus, not evolved from it.

[vaberella]

Ok I get that you have issues with Weir for this, and while I don't agree necessarily, I understand your viewpoint. But what I'm trying to understand is....you seem to be condemning Weir based on this mistake, yet you support Carter when she made a mistake just as bad or worse in Gemini, and that was after eight years, not just three. And she knew what RepliCarter was. Remember that in Progeny, they thought these people were Ancients, at least initially. They didn't have any reason not to trust them yet, other than the standard caution, not like Carter had with RepliCarter. Carter had been tortured by Fifth-it always seemed incredible to me that she trusted RepliCarter. Not to mention her actions in Insiders. I guess I just don't see how this is proof that Weir is any worse than Carter. Not an attack-I just don't understand.
Actually, I've never supported Carter in her decisions in SG-1. I don't know enough about SG-1 to say that or I wouldn't have asked someone to tell me. All I've seen of Carter is the pilot and I believe the ep called Foothold. Then I saw some 2-3 eps of S10. So I would never defend Carter's position and decisions in eps, I can't. I focused on SGA and Weir, for a reason.


Actually, I thought the Asurans created the virus, not evolved from it.
We're both wrong. They didn't evolve from the HZ virus like I had thought, and McKay I believe made the offhanded comment of saying we now know where the HZ virus came from---but this is based on McKay's presumption. Not fact. Because remember Weir went on a tangent and believed that the Asurans were jealous of the humans because they were more adored by the Ancients. Of course this is also her presumption none of this is based on fact. We all know she's a biased Ancient lover. So we don't know where the HZ virus actually came from, it's out there in space somewhere. They might show their ugly head in S4.

[Killdeer]

Actually, I've never supported Carter in her decisions in SG-1. I don't know enough about SG-1 to say that or I wouldn't have asked someone to tell me. All I've seen of Carter is the pilot and I believe the ep called Foothold. Then I saw some 2-3 eps of S10. So I would never defend Carter's position and decisions in eps, I can't. I focused on SGA and Weir, for a reason.

My mistake - I thought you were saying that Carter would be a better leader than Weir, because of the mistakes Weir has made. Apologies for the misunderstanding. :D

[vaberella]

My mistake - I thought you were saying that Carter would be a better leader than Weir, because of the mistakes Weir has made. Apologies for the misunderstanding. :D

No, no! It's cool. :D I had said that I think Carter would be able to relate to the team on a professional level, because she's military (John) and she's a scientist (McKay). In the case of Ronon (he defers to military authority so I figured he'd be good with her---devil's advocate idea) and with Teyla (since Carter was in a similar sitaution with a male dominant lead team). :D So I didn't think her inception to leading the team (if that comes to fruition) would be that bad. It would from what I can see make for good tv. Conflict could arise because she can relate to them, although I could also see where it makes for boring tv. :D

[expendable_crewman]

Actually, I thought the Asurans created the virus, not evolved from it.You probably thought that because Rodney said so in Progeny. I agree with you. Which is one reason why ...

The Ancients banished them. Maybe the only reason. There are several references in season three to the hatred of the Asurans for humans. Weir summarizes the Asurans loathing as stemming from some sort of cosmic sibling rivalry, amped to genocidal proportion.

The Hot Zone virus killed humans 100% of the time (as engineered) but spared beings with Ancient genes. Rodney realizes in Progeny that it was the Asurans who created the virus. And this is after that interesting conference with Oberoth and the team where Oberoth mentions the Big Disagreement between the Ancients and the Asurans on how the Wraith should be "eradicated."

Kill the Wraith by wiping out the food source.

When the Asurans created the virus, the Asurans at that point could not harm Ancients due to the base code thing, a prohibition that Rodney soon "cures."

Genocide (for humans in the Pegasus) was a deal-breaker back when there were Ancients in Atlantis who could stop the Asurans.

Sorry for not just saying this. I was trying not to discuss Progeny and Hot Zone, but at the same time I was making references to the eps. So that's my fault. The Asurans were humanity's mortal enemy long before Ancients abandoned Atlantis. The intervening 10,000 years probably did nothing to soften their resolve. In light of that, it's kind of odd, IMO, to blame the Asurans' disposition to humans on Weir.

Vaberella, we obviously disagree, and I mean really disagree. We're coming at the debate from different viewpoints, and we may even be enjoying the show from different perspectives.

That's cool, btw. People should take their entertainment as they find it.

If I really disliked a character the way you disliked Weir, I'd find that dislike spilling over into the show. That is me. I get that.

On topic, I have watched Sam for ten years and Weir for three. There's been so much speculation about how Sam will fit in. Of course, I'd like her arrival to be storyline-dictated and right now see no reason why it won't be.

I'd like to see Sam go off world with Sheppard's team at least once. There's something bizarre yet fascinating (for me) seeing the casts together. I don't want SG1's flavor on Atlantis, I never have, but I was glued to my seat for Pegasus Project just to see them all in that conference room.

Then it became, "Oh, okay, they've done it."

I've seen Sam in Atlantis. I've seen her on a 304 with McKay. I wouldn't mind seeing her interact with other folks on Atlantis, maybe off world. I heard I'm probably not going to see that, but okay, I can hope.

As for Weir, whatever is going on with her, I hope the actress gets to show off her talent. I wouldn't mind seeing Weir go dark. She's done that in the past and it was interesting.

[Seven]

The only issue I have with Carter coming to Atlantis is her personality fitting in with the dynamics already in place and how that will be managed.

I like Weir and the fact that she isn't military because I find it annoying that the Air Force etc have to do what they are ordered even if they know it is the wrong decision. Weir isn't goverened by that and (although makes mistakes) she can weigh up the moral as well as all other implications without having to wait to be told what to do by someone so far away who has never been on the front lines or seen a Wraith.

I hope that Weir will not go as I like the character and enjoy her subtleties.

[carterrocks]

MCKAY: I am just saying …the yield calculations can be extremely tricky if not borderline impossible. You may need me.

VALA: Colonel Carter said as much.

Not to mention the fact that it was him who figured out how to make the plan work, when she couldn't.

Yes she needed him to check her calculations, she already made them as she does say "check my calculations" after that he made them which supports my point that he is her lapdog and her making the first calculations suggests she could make them afterwards. O i don't get what you mean when you say he figured out on how to make the plan work, didn't she suggest to higher the yield calculations and then he does his normal routine of calling her certifiably insane and then we see her insane idea work?

[vaberella]

Vaberella, we obviously disagree, and I mean really disagree. We're coming at the debate from different viewpoints, and we may even be enjoying the show from different perspectives.

That's cool, btw. People should take their entertainment as they find it.

If I really disliked a character the way you disliked Weir, I'd find that dislike spilling over into the show. That is me. I get that.

OT:
Yeah, I'd have to say that's probably you. I'm able to discern what I dislike and what I like; much like reality and fiction. I didn't know Weir was the ONLY character on SGA! Weir doesn't make up 75% of the show for me to have "spillage". As for me disliking the character, do I need to invest on "hooked on phonics"? Obviously, you can't understand my English.

I have said this before, and I'll say it again; hopefully this time it will sink in word for word and some clarity will be made. I dislike seeing Weir made out to be stupid and her decisions to be so awful (based on her position and title) that she appears inept, plus the inconsistency for her writing is unnerving, to say the least. This would mean that I would have a problem with the overall writing for Weir--I didn't think I needed to spell this out. Now I have said this continously in my posts and said this repeatedly for every single episode in which I have a problem with the character's executive decisions. This is not new from me, but obviously the readers seem to have the same mentality with reading my words.

I'm not going to sit here and defend myself by stating which eps I liked her in, because to you and those who also assume I "hate" Weir! Which is neither here nor there, because I could careless! I do however feel I have more clout than the "Teyla's a boring character..." people---who don't give me reasons where and why. In any event, I'm a bit tired of your presumptions on where I stand, since you're most definitely not in my head.:mckay:

[jenks]

Yes she needed him to check her calculations, she already made them as she does say "check my calculations" after that he made them which supports my point that he is her lapdog and her making the first calculations suggests she could make them afterwards. O i don't get what you mean when you say he figured out on how to make the plan work, didn't she suggest to higher the yield calculations and then he does his normal routine of calling her certifiably insane and then we see her insane idea work?

He figured out that the reason it wouldn't work wasn't a question of size but a question of duration, it was his idea to use two bombs, something Carter didn't come up with.

[psychofilly]

Yes she needed him to check her calculations, she already made them as she does say "check my calculations" after that he made them which supports my point that he is her lapdog and her making the first calculations suggests she could make them afterwards. O i don't get what you mean when you say he figured out on how to make the plan work, didn't she suggest to higher the yield calculations and then he does his normal routine of calling her certifiably insane and then we see her insane idea work?

He was there to "check" her calculations because he was the only other person in two galaxies smart enough to do it, but it was heavily implied that there were other calculations that he was better suited to do.

Also, McKay did figure out how to make the plan work, because he was the one who figured out that they had to stagger the explosions. That they had the yeild calculations correct but had to add duration. That was McKay, not Carter.

I think they work extremely well together and they've shown that over the years, she's learned how to ego-check him and get him working with her and not against her, especially in M&MM.

While I don't want to see Weir leave at all, nor do I hope what little Zelenka gets is diminished, I am really looking forward to Carter on SGA, especially if she fills a Caldwell-like space as the voice of opposition/logic in the face of SGA. Of course, what I really want is more Caldwell. Mmmm. Mitch.

[SoSFSam]

I'm definitely looking foward to having Carter move to the Pegasus Galaxy. I can never get enough of watching Amanda Tapping on the screen. Not only is she beautiful to look at, but she is one fine actress as well. She is the shot in the arm that Atlantis has needed from the beginning. I have always liked the show, now I'm going to love it.

[bluealien]

I can't go as far as saying that I am looking forward to Carter coming to Atlantis. I still would have preferred that they didn't bring any SG1 characters over. What has me worried about Carter is that she has been around for so long and I got really tired of her from about season 6/7.

I don't dislike her but I got really bored with her character - so it depends what the writers do for her and how they handle her. Though if I had to choose between her and Weir I would choose Carter. Weir I have never taken to and she never really drew me into the character of Weir . I found her leadership abilities sorely lacking and her ineptitude astounded me at times. She was also so inconsistantly written that I finally lost all interest in the character. My lack of interest in Weir doesn't effect my enjoyment of the show and she isn't really a big enough player in the scheme of things.

I'm looking forward to Sam's interaction with the rest of the team and I hope to see a good friendship arise between her and Teyla. They are both strong woman and I hope the writers explore this. So even though I have some trepidation about Sam coming over I am fairly optimistic that it will be handled well and it will be interesting how she fits into the mix.

[the dancer of spaz]

He was there to "check" her calculations because he was the only other person in two galaxies smart enough to do it, but it was heavily implied that there were other calculations that he was better suited to do.

Also, McKay did figure out how to make the plan work, because he was the one who figured out that they had to stagger the explosions. That they had the yeild calculations correct but had to add duration. That was McKay, not Carter.

I think they work extremely well together and they've shown that over the years, she's learned how to ego-check him and get him working with her and not against her, especially in M&MM.

While I don't want to see Weir leave at all, nor do I hope what little Zelenka gets is diminished, I am really looking forward to Carter on SGA, especially if she fills a Caldwell-like space as the voice of opposition/logic in the face of SGA. Of course, what I really want is more Caldwell. Mmmm. Mitch.

I agree with all of this. They've done really well in showing that they both check each other's work, because they're equally capable of making mistakes and catching them. So I like how they've handled a lot of those issues. Pegasus Project, M&MM and TRNT are great instances where you see that dynamic held in both characters' favor.

And yes, more Caldwell, please! :P

[Atlantis1]

I really wish they were not bringing carter over to Atlantis. I wish they would concentrate on using the characters, Atlantis, Wraith, pegasus galaxy, etc. that they put together and build on these things. SGA doesn't really need outside help from SG-1 to grow. SGA is the series which caught my attention and drew me back for more.
I hope Weir is not leaving after season 4. I also want to see the cast we already have handle the situation on their own. A few guest appearances by SG-1 characters is ok but realistically let the two shows be separate and deal with the situations in the galaxy they are now at.
SG-1 is getting movies after a 10 season run and Carter should be there with her team to face the enemy in the Milky Way galaxy. I want to see the SGA team face their problems on their own. I feel they really can do it.

[Caldwell's 2IC]

I don't want Carter in Atlantis in Weir's place.
I don't want Carter in the Daedalus in Caldwell's place.
I don't want Carter in Atlantis in McKay's place.
I don't want Carter in Atlantis. http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y47/sheish/lcolcalcn2.gif

[Uber]

I'm definitely looking foward to having Carter move to the Pegasus Galaxy. I can never get enough of watching Amanda Tapping on the screen. Not only is she beautiful to look at, but she is one fine actress as well. She is the shot in the arm that Atlantis has needed from the beginning. I have always liked the show, now I'm going to love it.I agree entirely.

I think Carter could be just what the doctor ordered for Atlantis. I'm looking forward to seeing how she integrates with the others and how the existing dynamic is energized by her presence and involvement.

[sallyh]

I'm thrilled Carter :sam: is going to be in Atlantis but do not want to loose Weir :weir: . Both are superbly acted & are such great characters.

Sally
xx

[the dancer of spaz]

I don't want Carter in Atlantis in Weir's place.
I don't want Carter in the Daedalus in Caldwell's place.
I don't want Carter in Atlantis in McKay's place.
I don't want Carter in Atlantis. http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y47/sheish/lcolcalcn2.gif

Well... On the bright side, you might get 3 out of 4 of those requests. :hammond:

[Uber]

Well... On the bright side, you might get 3 out of 4 of those requests. :hammond:I'm thinkin' 2. ;)

[the dancer of spaz]

I'm thinkin' 2. ;)

Hehe. I was being generous. :P

[Caldwell's 2IC]

Well... On the bright side, you might get 3 out of 4 of those requests. :hammond:

" Oh, the pain... " Zachary Smith, MD.

[Uber]

Hehe. I was being generous. :PMeh...no use misleading anyone with false expectations even though some people will be thrilled while others are upset with the idea.

I think from all we know so far that it's pretty much a foregone conclusion that she will be leading the Atlantis expedition.

I suspect she'll do other things too, like be a sounding board for McKay and Zelenka every once in a while and occasionally backing Shep's team up offworld, just as Joe Mallozzi suggested.

But I think her primary function will be as the leader of the expedition.

[jenks]

Meh...no use misleading anyone with false expectations even though some people will be thrilled while others are upset with the idea.

I think from all we know so far that it's pretty much a foregone conclusion that she will be leading the Atlantis expedition.

I suspect she'll do other things too, like be a sounding board for McKay and Zelenka every once in a while and occasionally backing Shep's team up offworld, just as Joe Mallozzi suggested.

But I think her primary function will be as the leader of the expedition.

I don't, infact after seeing some pictures on JM's blog I'd say it is quite unlikely.

[Uber]

I don't, infact after seeing some pictures on JM's blog I'd say it is quite unlikely.Actually, there have been several clues to indicate strongly that this is what they're doing. Here are a few of them:

1. When discussing how things came about, Joe said, "After a decision was made with regard to Weir, we entertained a number of possibilities - three in particular come to mind. In the end, we decided on Carter because - a) it’s something we’ve wanted to do for a while, and b) her strengths and backgrounds make her well-suited to the Atlantis environment." This looks to me to mean they decided to go with Sam as the solution for their Weir dilemma, as in, she'd take her place.

2. In that same blog entry, Joe said that, "Holding the Samantha Carter responsible for any upcoming changes would be akin to holding the Cameron Mitchell character responsible for O’Neill’s departure or blaming the General Landry character for Hammond’s exit." Since Mitchell ostensibly filled what was Jack's role on the show (pre season 8) and Landry filled Hammond's pre season 8 role, this phrasing suggests to me that, likewise, Sam will be filling a role that Weir is leaving but that it'd be silly to blame her for Weir's absence.

3. At the recent Vancouver convention, fans touring the Atlantis set reportedly visited Weir's office and saw several personal affects that belonged to Sam.

Now I'll never say it is obvious that I think Sam is taking Weir's place until Joe or someone "in the know" officially confirms it...because right now it's all speculation. But given these and other hints and clues, I think it's pretty close to being a foregone conclusion.

[ladyofthenorth]

I am! Since I like Carter. I don't like Weir that much, she dóes make bad decisions in my opinion. Ultimately Caldwell would be a great leader I think, but since he's commanding the Daedalus..

I think the teamdynamics will get better, I mean, look at Pegasus Project. I like Carter, I like McKay, and I love every moment those two shared.
I am looking forward to Sam Carter coming to Atlantis but I really like Weir. It would be really great to see two strong women in leading roles and Tayla to round it off. Not too many shows have women as leaders and it would be really too bad to see Weir gone and a military man replace her.

[Mitchell82]

Actually, there have been several clues to indicate strongly that this is what they're doing. Here are a few of them:

1. When discussing how things came about, Joe said, "After a decision was made with regard to Weir, we entertained a number of possibilities - three in particular come to mind. In the end, we decided on Carter because - a) it’s something we’ve wanted to do for a while, and b) her strengths and backgrounds make her well-suited to the Atlantis environment." This looks to me to mean they decided to go with Sam as the solution for their Weir dilemma, as in, she'd take her place.

2. In that same blog entry, Joe said that, "Holding the Samantha Carter responsible for any upcoming changes would be akin to holding the Cameron Mitchell character responsible for O’Neill’s departure or blaming the General Landry character for Hammond’s exit." Since Mitchell ostensibly filled what was Jack's role on the show (pre season 8) and Landry filled Hammond's pre season 8 role, this phrasing suggests to me that, likewise, Sam will be filling a role that Weir is leaving but that it'd be silly to blame her for Weir's absence.

3. At the recent Vancouver convention, fans touring the Atlantis set reportedly visited Weir's office and saw several personal affects that belonged to Sam.

Now I'll never say it is obvious that I think Sam is taking Weir's place until Joe or someone "in the know" officially confirms it...because right now it's all speculation. But given these and other hints and clues, I think it's pretty close to being a foregone conclusion.

It sounds like it and personally if it is the case, even though I like Weir I really hav no objection towards that. What about you?

[Uber]

It sounds like it and personally if it is the case, even though I like Weir I really hav no objection towards that. What about you?I'm excited about it to tell you the truth.

I understand why Weir fans wouldn't be thrilled with the idea though. Heck, I would have preferred that Sam interact with Weir too but I really like the idea of her being put into a new situation like this. I think it could mean really good things for her...new challenges, some great development and interaction with new people...and I think it could be really good for the show too.

Only time will tell both if I'm right and whether or not it will play out well.

[Mitchell82]

I'm excited about it to tell you the truth.

I understand why Weir fans wouldn't be thrilled with the idea though. Heck, I would have preferred that Sam interact with Weir too but I really like the idea of her being put into a new situation like this. I think it could mean really good things for her...new challenges, some great development and interaction with new people...and I think it could be really good for the show too.

Only time will tell both if I'm right and whether or not it will play out well.

Agreed. I imagine that this will end up well but as you said time will tell to see if we are right.

[the fifth man]

Agreed. I imagine that this will end up well but as you said time will tell to see if we are right.

I sure hope it turns out well. I love Sam, so I hope she does great in such a capacity on SGA. The circumstances kind of suck, because I did like Weir, but, some things you just have to accept and move on.

[Mitchell82]

I sure hope it turns out well. I love Sam, so I hope she does great in such a capacity on SGA. The circumstances kind of suck, because I did like Weir, but, some things you just have to accept and move on.

Agreed. I too like Weir but I have high hopes for this move.

[the fifth man]

Agreed. I too like Weir but I have high hopes for this move.

That's all we really can have. Besides, why let it get you down until you've actually seen how it plays out anyways, right?

[Mitchell82]

That's all we really can have. Besides, why let it get you down until you've actually seen how it plays out anyways, right?

Exactly. Let it play out then see how you feel.

[Amaunet]

I'll be sad to see Weir go, :( but at the same time i'm excited to see Sam come to Atlantis, its a win, lose situation for me.
Overall I'm really looking forward to S4! :D

[aeryn-black]

Without Weir I probably won't watch Stargate Atlantis any longer. It wouldn't be the same without her. She is/was my favourite character. I'm kind of broken-hearted.
I like the idea of Sam comung to Atlantis, I like the character. But I hope she won't transfer Atlantis into some kind of new SG1.

[Atlantis1]

I won't be going through another Andromeda scenario. If this affects what is left of the original SGA cast then I will leave the show.

[Caldwell's 2IC]

Without Weir I probably won't watch Stargate Atlantis any longer. It wouldn't be the same without her. She is/was my favourite character. I'm kind of broken-hearted.
I like the idea of Sam comung to Atlantis, I like the character. But I hope she won't transfer Atlantis into some kind of new SG1.

I hope Weir gets back ( the fellows in the Save Weir campaign are working hard ) to kick Carter's b**t... :weir: out of her office.

[Falcon Horus]

I hope Weir gets back ( the fellows in the Save Weir campaign are working hard ) to kick Carter's b**t... :weir: out of her office.

We are trying, yes... :D

[Integrabyte]

We are trying, yes... :D

Not gonna happen. Believe it or NOT Samanda will be on Atlantis and will have more influence than Weir. :cool::cool:

[Falcon Horus]

Not gonna happen. Believe it or NOT Samanda will be on Atlantis and will have more influence than Weir. :cool::cool:

Says you... As long as I haven't seen any of the episodes I will not believe that theory. Sorry!

[expendable_crewman]

Vaberella:

You wrote: "Obviously, you can't understand my English."

You also wrote: "Now I have said this continously in my posts and said this repeatedly for every single episode in which I have a problem with the character's executive decisions."

I'm pretty good with English. I'm saying we disagree. That's okay, isn't it? That should be cool. I'm okay disagreeing with you. I'm okay with you disagreeing with me. Hey, I'm even okay with you repeating yourself "for every single episode in which" you "have a problem with the character's executive decisions."

If my telling you I disagree with your position, your this or your that gets you going, you should put me on ignore. I'm okay with that, too.

My apologies everyone for the OT.

[expendable_crewman]

I'll be sad to see Weir go, :( but at the same time i'm excited to see Sam come to Atlantis, its a win, lose situation for me.
Overall I'm really looking forward to S4! :DThat's kind of how I feel. I worry for the dynamic that is the show (Atlantis) I fell in love with. Meanwhile, I've loved Sam as a character for ten years. win/lose.

[Mitchell82]

Without Weir I probably won't watch Stargate Atlantis any longer. It wouldn't be the same without her. She is/was my favourite character. I'm kind of broken-hearted.
I like the idea of Sam comung to Atlantis, I like the character. But I hope she won't transfer Atlantis into some kind of new SG1.

I don't think that will happen. I firmly believe that this new take on SGA can be good.

[the dancer of spaz]

I hope Weir gets back ( the fellows in the Save Weir campaign are working hard ) to kick Carter's b**t... :weir: out of her office.


We are trying, yes... :D

:S I don't know if it'll do much good, but it's worth a shot. I don't understand some people's mentality though. I really want Weir to be there for the whole season, and I want her to have an important role along with the other characters. And I definitely would be more adamant about it alongside Weir's most ardent fans, if it didn't come with a whole lot of Carter bashing. As if, you know, if you like Weir and want her to stay, the only way to get that across is to bash Carter. I get enough of that from another camp, thank you very much. :rolleyes:

I want Weir back, but having her get there so she can "kick Carters butt" is kinda, I dunno... juvenile? Especially considering they aren't, as far as we know, enemies in the first place. And, again as far as we know, neither are the actors.

So what's the point?

I wish the Weir fans well though, and I hope we see Weir in a greater capacity next season. It won't be the same without her, and I know I'll miss her.

[Caldwell's 2IC]

I didn't want people from the other show in Atlantis in the first place and I didn't want Atlantis to be a sort of refugee camp for SG-1. Then TPTB decided to uphold Amanda's contract ( I have no problem with that ) so Carter ended in Atlantis. Sure. Fine. Whatever.

She could have joined the Atlantis expedition as a scientist or as a pilot, but noooo, they are kicking Weir aside to make room for Carter. That's what I have a problem with.

Carter isn't taking McKay's place or Sheppard's place; she's taking over Weir's place and I don't like that.

First it was Beckett and then Weir. Who's next ???

And yes, "kicking Carter's butt" may be juvenile...but I want to do just that.;)

[Uber]

I didn't want people from the other show in Atlantis in the first place and I didn't want Atlantis to be a sort of refugee camp for SG-1. Then TPTB decided to uphold Amanda's contract ( I have no problem with that ) so Carter ended in Atlantis. Sure. Fine. Whatever.

She could have joined the Atlantis expedition as a scientist or as a pilot, but noooo, they are kicking Weir aside to make room for Carter. That's what I have a problem with.

Carter isn't taking McKay's place or Sheppard's place; she's taking over Weir's place and I don't like that.

First it was Beckett and then Weir. Who's next ???

And yes, "kicking Carter's butt" may be juvenile...but I want to do just that.;)Per Joe Mallozzi's Q&A on his blog:
Jessica also writes: “Where is the logic in getting rid of two Atlantis fan favourites and risking losing their fans, just in the hope of getting a few people from SG1 to watch.”

Joe Mallozzi's answer: Allow me to clear up a assumption on your part, specifically the fait accompli belief that any creative decision made with regard to Weir was a result of Carter joining the show. In fact, the opposite is true. After a decision was made with regard to Weir, we entertained a number of possibilities - three in particular come to mind. In the end, we decided on Carter because - a) it’s something we’ve wanted to do for a while, and b) her strengths and backgrounds make her well-suited to the Atlantis environment. Holding the Samantha Carter responsible for any upcoming changes would be akin to holding the Cameron Mitchell character responsible for O’Neill’s departure or blaming the General Landry character for Hammond’s exit.Meaning...whether or not Carter comes to Atlantis, the decisions for Weir were a done deal.

[Caldwell's 2IC]

C'mon ! Does this Mallozzi fellow think we are going to swalow that ???
Now I want to kick his butt !

[Agent_Dark]

C'mon ! Does this Mallozzi fellow think we are going to swalow that ???
Now I want to kick his butt !

So in other words, you want to believe in a conspiracy theory?

[Amaunet]

:S I don't know if it'll do much good, but it's worth a shot. I don't understand some people's mentality though. I really want Weir to be there for the whole season, and I want her to have an important role along with the other characters. And I definitely would be more adamant about it alongside Weir's most ardent fans, if it didn't come with a whole lot of Carter bashing. As if, you know, if you like Weir and want her to stay, the only way to get that across is to bash Carter. I get enough of that from another camp, thank you very much. :rolleyes:

I want Weir back, but having her get there so she can "kick Carters butt" is kinda, I dunno... juvenile? Especially considering they aren't, as far as we know, enemies in the first place. And, again as far as we know, neither are the actors.

So what's the point?

I wish the Weir fans well though, and I hope we see Weir in a greater capacity next season. It won't be the same without her, and I know I'll miss her.

I agree
I think somehow, some Weir fans are fighting the wrong battle. Carter is not the reason Weir is leaving. As ÜberSG-1Fan said "whether or not Carter comes to Atlantis, the decisions for Weir were a done deal." I don't think there is any reason to blame Carter for Weir's leaving, though she may be 'replacing' her in some words..Weir is not leaving because of Carter!
Anyway I am terribly sad that :weir: is going, and i do hope that we will see more of her, i wish the Save Elizabeth Campaign all the best!!!

[Caldwell's 2IC]

So in other words, you want to believe in a conspiracy theory?

Yeah, Mulder was right ! :)

Or maybe I was a Shrill and Ill-Informed Lemming
in my past life ;)

[Uber]

C'mon ! Does this Mallozzi fellow think we are going to swalow that ???
Now I want to kick his butt !Sometimes Joe will say things that can be interpreted in a wide variety of ways. He likes to toy with fans that way sometimes.

He didn't do that here. The terms he used were absolute and left no room for alternate interpretations. "This is what happened"...he said.

To the best of my knowledge, he's never lied outright. Teased, cajoled, poked and prodded? Yes. Lied? No.

So, absent evidence to the contrary, I'll accept this explanation at face value as I'm not ready nor do I think it's appropriate to call Joe a liar...especially when that opinion is based on nothing more than someone else's feelings on the matter.

[Jason_Clement]

Atlantis is Atlantis. I will always watch it! as long as Sheppard's doing his thing ^__^; Prolly even if he's not around :/ ... but losing him would suck. :P

[Caldwell's 2IC]

Sometimes Joe will say things that can be interpreted in a wide variety of ways. He likes to toy with fans that way sometimes.

He didn't do that here. The terms he used were absolute and left no room for alternate interpretations. "This is what happened"...he said.

To the best of my knowledge, he's never lied outright. Teased, cajoled, poked and prodded? Yes. Lied? No.

So, absent evidence to the contrary, I'll accept this explanation at face value as I'm not ready nor do I think it's appropriate to call Joe a liar...especially when that opinion is based on nothing more than someone else's feelings on the matter.

Ok, ok, I won't call him a liar. But I don't have to like the way he treats the fans ( lemmings ??? ). And the way some fans are hanging to his every little word as if it was the Gospel... it just creeps me out. :S