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goauld more evolved than ancients - wtf ? (MAJOR 'dominion' spoilers inside)

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    goauld more evolved than ancients - wtf ? (MAJOR 'dominion' spoilers inside)

    in dominion baal takes over adria as a host & successfully controls her. sure it requires a great effort to keep her in check but nevertheless the fact is that his mind prevails over hers. so the question is - what the ****ing hell...? if anything it's she with her ancient-level mind who should've easily controled him, not the other way around

    which raises another question - did the writers intend to show that the goauld are the most evolved race in the sg-verse ? and if so, how come the goauld with their superior minds (as suggested in dominion) aren't the most technologically advanced as well ? they should've either developped their own tech (superior to lantean tech) or stolen it from other races by taking over them as hosts, after all if a goauld can control an ancient then it should be able to control just about any other race, shouldn't it

    smells like a another major plot inconsistency to me
    Last edited by SoulReaver; 08 March 2007, 06:11 PM.

    #2
    I think it would be more inconsistent if Ba'al wasn't able to control her. It's not like it's a battle of minds, the snake is physically in her head, the Goa'uld have evolved to do what they do, I don't think the fact that she has more powers would make much of a difference. I've always said a Goa'uld could probably take over a Wraith too...

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      #3
      Who knows just what Adria really is? She is, after all, half-human. She grew inside of Vala's womb and probably share DNA with her.

      As for Ba'al being able to supress Adria. He did say that the Tok'ra probably wouldn't be able to do it, indicating that Ba'al might be an expert supresser of hosts.

      But those things aside, it doesn't matter if the Goa'uld are expert supressers of their hosts. Having that ability does not equal having vast knowledge or having the ability to think like an Ancient.

      The Ancients had millions of years to develop their society. There's nothing to indicate that the Goa'uld have ever taken over an Ancient, a Nox, a Furling or an Asgard. At least not any with any rich scientific knowledge (as proven by the fact that Goa'uld tech is basically just cheap knock-offs of Ancient tech).

      Just because the Goa'uld could possibly take over an Ancient doesn't mean they automatically possess all Ancient knowledge.



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        #4
        if a goauld could take over an ancient (in the sense : invade & take control) then it would gain the knowledge of that host since that's how it works. so if the goauld don't have ancient-level tech then this means that either 1) the goauld have never been able to approach, capture & take over an ancient host, or 2) the goauld have captured & tried taking over an ancient host but the snake was rejected by said host because the ancient mind was stronger (problem is dominion seems to contradict this)

        Originally posted by jenks
        I think it would be more inconsistent if Ba'al wasn't able to control her. It's not like it's a battle of minds, the snake is physically in her head, the Goa'uld have evolved to do what they do, I don't think the fact that she has more powers would make much of a difference. I've always said a Goa'uld could probably take over a Wraith too...
        wrong - we know it's a battle of minds (it's been stated that when a snake enters a host there's a fight for control of the host from the start)
        besides if it's a question of being "physically in the head" then I could say, duh, so is the host ! the host's brain is also physically in his head isn't he :|

        heck we've seen mere humans who could influence a goauld (cf. kendra) or even better : resist a goauld (cf. skaara) to some extent, if a primitve human teen could pull that off I'd expect an ancient-level mind to fare a little better than that...
        Last edited by SoulReaver; 07 March 2007, 12:36 PM.

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          #5
          Still, there's no real reason to assume that a more advanced mind would be any better at resisting a Goa'uld than and average human imo, it's not like it's something human minds would have evolved to do.

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            #6
            Originally posted by jenks
            Still, there's no real reason to assume that a more advanced mind would be any better at resisting a Goa'uld than and average human imo
            well yes there is, by definition - since it's a battle of minds then a stronger host mind should offer more resistance - and the strongest of the two minds should prevail

            skaara was only a human (a teen at that) yet klorel told apophis that his new host was "very strong". later on skaara even told jack that each day he "listened" & "learned" to fight the snake

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              #7
              Originally posted by SoulRe@ver View Post
              well yes there is, by definiton - since it's a battle of minds then a stronger host mind should offer more resistance - and the strongest of the two minds should prevail
              Adria has mind powers, I wouldn't say that automatically means that her mind is 'stronger' atleast in terms of resisting influence anyway...

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                #8
                you are still forgeting the fact there was that anti-prior device
                Stolen Kosovo
                sigpic

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                  #9
                  Originally posted by jenks
                  Adria has mind powers, I wouldn't say that automatically means that her mind is 'stronger' atleast in terms of resisting influence anyway...
                  hm good point...so basically she was just an augmented human not on par with a "true" full-blown ancient (such as the lanteans) ?
                  Last edited by SoulReaver; 07 March 2007, 12:56 PM.

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                    #10
                    Maybe, but even then I don't know if an Ancient would do any better. My point is, I don't think that the way in which the Ancients minds are 'advanced' gives them any more resistence than normal humans, I suppose I just don't think being able to move things with your mind means you will necessarily have a 'strong' mind. Like Daniel was able to resist and even control replicarter, yet the Asurans were able to probe the minds of the Ancients...

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by jenks
                      Maybe, but even then I don't know if an Ancient would do any better. My point is, I don't think that the way in which the Ancients minds are 'advanced' gives them any more resistence than normal humans, I suppose I just don't think being able to move things with your mind means you will necessarily have a 'strong' mind.
                      yet McKay acquired such powers even though these powers weren't genetic (since he didn't mutate into lantean physiology - he remained human throughout the episode) suggesting ancient powers are more a "mind strength" thing than a biological thing...

                      also adria could also ascend ! just like the ancients. hasn't it been established that it takes an extremely "strong" will to be able to ascend ?
                      (unless she didn't ascend on her own which boils down to whether the ori would make an exception for adria since she's their "orici" or whatever)

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                        #12
                        What I'm saying is, I don't think you can just measure how strong a mind is by what it can do and say oh that one is stronger. For me, nothing the Ancients can do with their mind indicates that they would be any better at resisiting the Goa'uld better than anyone else. Oh and Rodney did mutate, that was the whole point of the machine. It is a battle of minds yes, but the Goa'uld have evolved specifically to win that battle, it's one task, I don't think that just because they can do that means that their minds are somehow overall more advanced than Ancient ones.


                        *Edit*


                        Adria could ascend because she was physically capable and she knew how to, also remember how she tried to interrogate Daniel but he resisted and she told him how he had a strong mind. It seems almost to be more about skill than anything else...

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                          #13
                          he did mutate ? damn, I'll have to rewatch that ep :/

                          Originally posted by jenks
                          It is a battle of minds yes, but the Goa'uld have evolved specifically to win that battle, it's one task, I don't think that just because they can do that means that their minds are somehow overall more advanced than Ancient ones.
                          well IMO if one mind can completely prevail over another in a pure one-on-one battle of wills then it is a good indicative of that mind's overall advancement compared to the latter. it clearly means that the first mind is stronger than the second, simple as that. basically it's not just one task, it's the task : 1 vs 1 no holds barred, brute force vs brute force & the result is decisive. think of it as an arm wrestle, except that instead of physical strength it's raw willpower

                          case in point : if the goauld were so advanced that would even explain how at least one of them was able to learn the ultimate secret in the sg-verse ie. how to ascend



                          all in all I might buy a goauld being able to prevail over adria (a gifted human but still a human nonetheless) but not an ancient or any other "strong-minded" race (such as the wraith)
                          Last edited by SoulReaver; 07 March 2007, 01:37 PM.

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                            #14
                            Well, I dunno if it can really mean it has a stronger mind. I mean, a lot of strong people have been simply completely controlled by Goa'Uld before,and although yes, some relatively normal hosts have prevailed a bit, it was mostly against young Goa'Uld.

                            Ba'al is a System lord, who has been investigating on things way beyond the Goa'uld for the past 2 years. Not to mention we don't know Adria's state, at least not fully: She could've been drugged or something.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Sauron18
                              Well, I dunno if it can really mean it has a stronger mind. I mean, a lot of strong people have been simply completely controlled by Goa'Uld before,and although yes, some relatively normal hosts have prevailed a bit, it was mostly against young Goa'Uld.
                              "strong people" in the sense knowledgeable perhaps but not strong-willed (at least not on the galactic scale)...



                              and hey skaara wuz young too, and it wasn't any goauld skaara had to deal with -

                              apophis> "you're my son !"

                              the son of apophis the coolest goauld ever, no less !

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