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    Why the Ancients are not interfering (yet)...

    Beyond the current reasoning that the ascended Ancients are not interfering in the MW against the Ori invasion due to their arrogance and lack of concern for the lower planes of existance, there are some other possible reasons they are not interfering:

    1. Future knowledge from Merlin (time machine) shared with them on how the Ori were defeated, which led to a non-interference policy (or reason to wait to join in) on the current time line.

    2. The ascended Ori can prevent them from directly interfering as much as the Ancients can stop them directly as well.

    3. Waiting for more help to arrive (Asgard, Furling, Nox) when called finally upon

    This question I think will finally be answered when the question of where Merlin is (ascended, statis?) is do we? Or why he stopped usign his time machine...

    #2
    I think it's more along the lines of "you got yourself into this mess, now deal with it."
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      #3
      We must be enterianing to the ascended.

      remember in the diner--Daniel had all the events in a newspaper.

      They won't interfer because--if it bleeds--it leads.
      Grammar, Logic, Rhetoric.

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        #4
        Originally posted by ORICI View Post
        Beyond the current reasoning that the ascended Ancients are not interfering in the MW against the Ori invasion due to their arrogance and lack of concern for the lower planes of existance, there are some other possible reasons they are not interfering:
        What has arrogance got to do with anything? Why should they interfere? I think it's arrogant to assume that we're right and they're in the wrong, why should they go against everything they believe in just to help us? I think the inhabitants of the milky way should be grateful that he Ancients had been sheilding our galaxy for so long at all, I mean, do you protect your local insects from predators?

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          #5
          Because they have strict rules set: No interference on the lower planes. If they do anything to the lower planes thats interference. The whole reason that the actual Ori themselves aren't kicking the hell out of the milky way is because they know that the Ancients would stop them.
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            #6
            Originally posted by jenks View Post
            What has arrogance got to do with anything? Why should they interfere? I think it's arrogant to assume that we're right and they're in the wrong, why should they go against everything they believe in just to help us? I think the inhabitants of the milky way should be grateful that he Ancients had been sheilding our galaxy for so long at all, I mean, do you protect your local insects from predators?
            Suppose I see a baby drowning in a lake. I'm the only one that can save the baby. But I don't want to get my suit wet. Why should I get my suit wet to save the baby?

            You're also defending a civilization who more than likely left behind the Replicators that were uncounterable by even the Asgard or Earth, until we found the disruptor weapon. How many Asgard lost their lives because the Ancients couldn't have given the disruptor technology to the Asgard beforehand? I definately believe non-interference is an immoral policy. When we have the capacity to do good such as allowing refugees (and I think Oma could have been the moral equivalent of this and I'm not going to trash her) to escape from despotic governments, when the Asgard protected several planets against Go'uld invasion, when the Serakin protected their human residents, and when the Salesh aliens sheltered their First Nations tribe, the ascended government could do something. They've already acknowledged we were powerless against the prior plague and sent down Orlin. We're also powerless against telekinesis (and the main reason why the past two seasons have been lacking ground combat against Ori forces, in my opinion), we need something much more than the antiprior sound device. Any world that the priors visit are lost because they're too much for us to handle and if the Ancients/writers would stop letting them break energy-mass conservation principles, we'd be able to engage them.

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              #7
              Originally posted by DetriusXii View Post
              Suppose I see a baby drowning in a lake. I'm the only one that can save the baby. But I don't want to get my suit wet. Why should I get my suit wet to save the baby?
              Bad anology, more like if you saw that a caterpillar had fallen into a lake would you jump in to save it? My guess would be no. You have to understand that at their plane of existence they see our lives as about as significant as an insects, do you think pest control employees are guilty of genocide?

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                #8
                Originally posted by jenks View Post
                What has arrogance got to do with anything? Why should they interfere? I think it's arrogant to assume that we're right and they're in the wrong, why should they go against everything they believe in just to help us? I think the inhabitants of the milky way should be grateful that he Ancients had been sheilding our galaxy for so long at all, I mean, do you protect your local insects from predators?
                We must not forget some key things about the Ancients:
                - They seem to always under estimate their enemies (Ori plague, Wraith, Asurans, Ori originally...) - hence the arrogance (how can you blame them, being that tech advanced).
                - By protecting our galaxy, but not making us aware of such an everlasting threat to us like the Ori at all is like bad parenting...it is a dangerous world/universe out there. Even when your children (Dakara device reseed) are in trouble...you usually help them out sooner or later.
                - You could or even would protect bugs from predators if your ecosystem depended on the bugs for your survival in some important manner (plants need them in food chain..or relatively speaking the way Ori energy gathering from their primitive worshippers, they would not allow us to kill their worshippers).

                The fact that Daniel saw events a newspaper in the Ascended Cafe may also just mean a confirmation of events from future knowledge, not reporting of our current time lines as tehy may not perceive time like that ascended perhaps...

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                  #9
                  Originally posted by jenks View Post
                  Bad anology, more like if you saw that a caterpillar had fallen into a lake would you jump in to save it? My guess would be no. You have to understand that at their plane of existence they see our lives as about as significant as an insects, do you think pest control employees are guilty of genocide?
                  So it's quite a status change that when someone is 1 second prior to ascended, they are seen as a pest, and the second after they become a god. So if someone chooses to descend, do they become a pest again? You're stating the worth of a person depends on what form they take. That view can be very reprehensible (and the reason why I previously claimed the Wraith were evil.)

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                    #10
                    Originally posted by DetriusXii View Post
                    Suppose I see a baby drowning in a lake. I'm the only one that can save the baby. But I don't want to get my suit wet. Why should I get my suit wet to save the baby?

                    someone needs to watch the futurama episode "godfellas"

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                      #11
                      Originally posted by jenks View Post
                      Bad anology, more like if you saw that a caterpillar had fallen into a lake would you jump in to save it? My guess would be no. You have to understand that at their plane of existence they see our lives as about as significant as an insects, do you think pest control employees are guilty of genocide?
                      What's more, doing so would break one of your most cherished laws.

                      So it'll be like, you'll need to kill a person before diving in to save the baby/catepiller/whatever.

                      Originally posted by DetriusXii View Post
                      So it's quite a status change that when someone is 1 second prior to ascended, they are seen as a pest, and the second after they become a god. So if someone chooses to descend, do they become a pest again? You're stating the worth of a person depends on what form they take. That view can be very reprehensible (and the reason why I previously claimed the Wraith were evil.)
                      The difference is in the experience. A lower-planer, no matter how close to Ascension (and the responsibilities of it) he/she is, will have not experienced what's it like. Once that person has Ascended, he/she will know, and understand why the Ancients do what they do (or not do).

                      So I think it's perfectly fine to see some "Un-ascendeds" as "pests" (more like lower life forms; I doubt they feel animosity towards us), since they just don't know what it's like.

                      Sounds like someone I know.
                      Last edited by PG15; 03 December 2006, 11:59 PM.

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                        #12
                        Originally posted by ORICI View Post
                        We must not forget some key things about the Ancients:
                        - They seem to always under estimate their enemies (Ori plague, Wraith, Asurans, Ori originally...) - hence the arrogance (how can you blame them, being that tech advanced).
                        - By protecting our galaxy, but not making us aware of such an everlasting threat to us like the Ori at all is like bad parenting...it is a dangerous world/universe out there. Even when your children (Dakara device reseed) are in trouble...you usually help them out sooner or later.
                        - You could or even would protect bugs from predators if your ecosystem depended on the bugs for your survival in some important manner (plants need them in food chain..or relatively speaking the way Ori energy gathering from their primitive worshippers, they would not allow us to kill their worshippers).

                        The fact that Daniel saw events a newspaper in the Ascended Cafe may also just mean a confirmation of events from future knowledge, not reporting of our current time lines as tehy may not perceive time like that ascended perhaps...
                        It's not just proteting the galaxy frmo what's outt here. They rotected the galaxy because they dind't wan tto get into a mess with the Orii again. They themsevels don't know if they can win over hte Orii - Orlin says so himself. Their arrogance can be seen here as simply burying their heads in the sand - they odn't know that they can win, so they don't even try - even tho they know that eventually, the Orii will come after them. And with tehir record of underestimating their enemy, as Orici mentioned... it'd be arriogant to assume they're going to win no amtter what.
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                          #13
                          Originally posted by DetriusXii View Post
                          So it's quite a status change that when someone is 1 second prior to ascended, they are seen as a pest, and the second after they become a god. So if someone chooses to descend, do they become a pest again? You're stating the worth of a person depends on what form they take. That view can be very reprehensible (and the reason why I previously claimed the Wraith were evil.)
                          I'm not stating that this is the case, I'm just telling you that that's the way they see it.

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                            #14
                            I think people are hung up on the notion that the Ancients have some sort of responsibility to protect us, they don't. Given their beliefs, expecting the Ancients to interfere is like expecting a pacifist to join the army, they aren't going to do it unless there really is no other option, and at the minute, that just isn't the case.

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                              #15
                              Why do we exist? Seems like a profound or stupid question, but we don't know the answer. Why did the ancients seed this galaxy again? Why spend time and energy defending this galaxy's population if you can simply choose to find another and start over?

                              Assuming for the moment they see doing something as purposeful in the larger view of the universe as a whole, what sort of actions would they choose to take? It's obvious they can interfere in lower-planes. If that rule were set in stone Oma would never have been allowed to ascend a second person. Orlin would never have been allowed to appear to Sam. Obviously the rule is more complext. Most likely the same rule that applied to Anibis, where he could only take actions that a mortal could, and impart knowledge that could have been gained as a mortal.

                              Oma helps people ascend. Reaching that spiritual point is mortally possible. Oma seemed to have ascended all of Abidos, and they still allowed her to help Danial ascend a second time. It is also obvious that they can impart a great deal of knowledge so long as those gaining it are unaware they had help (both Orlin and Morgana have done so.) They can and are interfering, from allowing Orlin to bring knowledge with him when he retook human form yet again, to allowing Morgana to give us the information to find the weapon.

                              How did Vala find the tablet that led them to the device that lead them to the Ori? It that context it's possible the ancients judged us to be ready and actually manipulated us into finding the Ori. Perhaps one of Sam's scans of Merlin's device returned a result (days or weeks worth of scans failed) only because the ancients did something. Perhaps us unearthing the gate in Giza was only because an ancient inspired Dr. Langford. What if the reason Danial could not remain ascended the first time was because he became aware that the events of the last dacade were the result of ancient manipulation attmpting to use us to bring about the fall of the Ori? Is that what the Ori mean when they say the ancients are abusing us? Was the struggle against the Goa'uld, merely training for us to better understand and resist beings like the Ori who claim to be gods? What if the events of the last 10 thousand years (including the rise of the Goa'uld) was the result of carefully planning and interferance?

                              Just because the interferance isn't overt doesn't mean it isn't there.

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