Collaborators (305) [Archive]

GateWorld

September 29th, 2006, 10:07 PM

<DIV ALIGN="center"><TABLE WIDTH="450" BORDER="0" CELLSPACING="0" CELLPADDING="7"><TR><TD STYLE="border:0;"><DIV ALIGN="left"><FONT FACE="Verdana, Arial, san-serif" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/battlestar-galactica/s3/"><IMG SRC="http://www.scifistream.com/wp-content/uploads/3051.jpg" WIDTH="160" HEIGHT="120" ALIGN="right" HSPACE="10" VSPACE="2" BORDER="0" STYLE="border: 1px black solid;" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#888888">BATTLESTAR GALACTICA SEASON THREE</FONT>
<FONT SIZE="4"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/battlestar-galactica/s3/" STYLE="text-decoration: none">COLLABORATORS</A></FONT>
<FONT SIZE="1">EPISODE NUMBER - 305</FONT>
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In the wake of the Cylon occupation, a secret group of men and women play judge, jury, and executioner to those who collaborated with the enemy on New Caprica. Tom Zarek and Laura Roslin negotiate for her to reassume the office of the President.

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shaqarava

October 27th, 2006, 06:03 PM

Fantastic ep, it doesn't get any darker than this. I'm so glad they didn't kill off Gaeta, he's one of my fave characters, i got all emotional at the ending when he's sitting alone and the chief comes sit by him. I woulda sat with Gaeta no matter what people thought of me :)

titans

October 27th, 2006, 06:05 PM

Skydiver

October 27th, 2006, 06:06 PM

this is likely to be pegged as one of the more boring episodes, yet it dealt with something that needed to be dealt with.

I still think that tigh is a few fries short of a happy meal

oh, and on a side, can you hear his canadian accent come out when he rants???? :)

Eragnok

October 27th, 2006, 06:07 PM

Theres a New Ressurection ship. Damn cylons and there building ships.

titans

October 27th, 2006, 06:07 PM

Tigh is so hardcore Superman wears Colonel Tigh Pajamas!

Major Fischer

October 27th, 2006, 06:12 PM

* That's why father's don't get to be on juries. Nice job chief, space the man and than ask questions. I feel sorry for Jammer and am a little sorry we lost the character. I don't have much sympathy for the circle and hope they all have to pay for murder. I doubt it.

* Baltar's dream delusion is really freaky. I think I agree with Gaius, "Oh no...."

* "Mistakes were made." Gaius Baltar quotes Condaleza Rice?

* Interior of the basestar is... odd. Oh, another Resurrection ship.

* Galactica is not a ship built for family. This can't last forever. For one thing the show can't afford that many extras forever.

* Now that's an ... interesting political dance to get her back in power. I feel sorry for Zarek and Roslin was a little too... smug for my tastes. She was praising him, but she was also triumphant. It leaves me uncomfortable, as if the military has essentially installed Roslin in office, even if there were political nicities to it. I suppose that's to be expected, but still.

* I'm really hoping someone in that group gets charged with murder.

* The cylons are trying Gaius Baltar?

* "I have a date with a jump rope." "Keep jumping."

* This entire episode is creepy.

* Just when the show has me liking (or at least having sympathy for) Saul Tigh they remind me that I don't like him again.

* Oh Caprica... I liked you as the nice one. And for once I don't think Baltar is in love with Six.

* Zarek approved this death court. THey have a limited time because his executive order is only in effect while he's president and the minute Roslin is sworn in they aren't legal. Tom, Tom, Tom.... I'm very disappointed in you. Guess that's how they get around convicting them of murder but I sure as hell hope there are consequences for this.

* Well, there goes the divorce.

* Wow, I totally called the Truth and Reconcilation Commission last week. Good for Laura.

katie_9918

October 27th, 2006, 06:13 PM

Well, frak me with a spoon. Very little action, but a hell of a lot of stuff happening.

A very tiny voice inside my head was cheering Zarek on in his executive order, but I did a frakkin 360 of my own once Roslin took back the Presidency and made the decision she made.

Count me in with those who are glad Gaeta didn't die. Sure, he could have (and probably should have) done more, but if it wasn't for him, Osama, Chief, and company could never have contacted Galactica. Roslin, Zarek, Cally, and roughly a hundred and ninety-seven other people would be included in the body count. Galactica could not have mounted the rescue mission. They would all be either dead or still stuck on New Crapica right now.

I feel for Starbuck, but I seriously hope this downward spiral concludes quickly.

"Keep jumping." Hahaha. Olmos is great with the dry, acerbic wit. No one else would have been able to deliver that line the way he did.

Adama leading the applause for Roslin's Forgiveness movement. My heart did a little pitter patter at that.

And it's still a whole new ballgame.

Great show.

titans

October 27th, 2006, 06:19 PM

Well, frak me with a spoon.

????

ShadowMaat

October 27th, 2006, 06:21 PM

I still think that tigh is a few fries short of a happy meal
A few fries?! He's a whole side order short of a happy meal. And then some.

Yes, some necessary stuff was dealt with in this ep, but I do wish they could have added something to balance the bland necessary details. *shrug*

That being said, Roslyn is president again. Strange trick to use, especially if she intends to keep Zarek as her VP, but whatever.

And the issue of who's the XO has been settled... although I wonder how long Tigh will be able to cling to his position before Adama can no longer ignore the fact that he's nuttier than a nut factory. :P

titans

October 27th, 2006, 06:26 PM

A few fries?! He's a whole side order short of a happy meal. And then some.

Yes, some necessary stuff was dealt with in this ep, but I do wish they could have added something to balance the bland necessary details. *shrug*

That being said, Roslyn is president again. Strange trick to use, especially if she intends to keep Zarek as her VP, but whatever.

And the issue of who's the XO has been settled... although I wonder how long Tigh will be able to cling to his position before Adama can no longer ignore the fact that he's nuttier than a nut factory. :P

He's not nuts..he's Hardcore. When your that incredibly Hardcore mere mortals can't comprehend that level of Hardcoreness and it is perceived as insanity by us simple humans.

Major Fischer

October 27th, 2006, 06:30 PM

He's not nuts..he's Hardcore. When your that incredibly Hardcore mere mortals can't comprehend that level of Hardcoreness and it is perceived as insanity by us simple humans.

Translation, he's nuts. He can't function as an officer in this state, no matter how "cool" you think he is, and right now he's the farthest thing from cool in my book.

ShadowMaat

October 27th, 2006, 06:31 PM

He's a sick, sociopathic monster who's barely in control of himself, as far as I'm concerned. But hey, one person's sociopath is another's savior, so whatever. ;)

Here's a question:

Given the order of the webisodes, didn't Jammer become involved with the NCP after the temple killings? I mean, isn't that part of the reason he joined them- to stop stuff like that from happening again?

And yet in the ep they accuse him of participating in the killings... and he agrees. Was there another raid on a temple? :confused:

Major Fischer

October 27th, 2006, 06:32 PM

That being said, Roslyn is president again. Strange trick to use, especially if she intends to keep Zarek as her VP, but whatever.

As much as I like Roslin, they've actually written her into a position that I think it can rightly be charged that she's a military backed strong-man/dictator. This is probably not a bad thing for story, but is a little disconcerting, but there is a lot disconcerting in this show.

Weirdly enough, I liked that Zarek seemed to be geniunely interested in protecting her. Keeping her clean. But oh how wonderful crack!ship can be. She's definately not pleased with him right now.

titans

October 27th, 2006, 06:33 PM

ShadowMaat

October 27th, 2006, 06:34 PM

Tigh is Hardcore!
In your opinion. Let's not go down that road, please.

Arative

October 27th, 2006, 06:36 PM

This was a great character based episode. Yeah, light on action but just outstanding on character depth. Skydiver is right though, this probably will go down as boring in some quarters. Poor Jammer, just a kid in the wrong place trying to do the right thing.

I think despite what the jury thought, they weren't out for justice, they were out for vengence. Anders saw that and wanted none of it. The Chief saw it too but wanted it done anyway.

When Kara, won't call her Starbuck until she's back in the cockpit, sent Anders away, I think it was too keep from hurting him. She knows she's completely mind frakked by Leoben, that she needs to hurt someone and she doesn't want the to be Anders. Her brand of frakked up love?

I really liked Gaeta in this episode. He knew that he did what he could and he refused to bow under the accustations of the crew. I loved that he refused to beg before the jury, stood up to their vengence. And I really liked how when he was proven to be a good guy, he got up and walked out with dignity. The look on Tigh's face was priceless, just stunned beyond belief when I think he realized that they were doing this for vengence, not justice.

Not sure I agree with Roslin and her reconcilation. On one hand I see the need for it, the need to put the past 16 months behind them but I do think the worst of the collaborators need to pay. Not someone that worked for the Cylons but someone that helped surpress the Colonials. Baltar for sure would be that list, the worst of the NCP.

cylon4ever

October 27th, 2006, 06:36 PM

Yo TIVO guys,

Please post frame-by-frame details of preview scenes from the next episode.!

thanks

nell

October 27th, 2006, 06:36 PM

I wanted Balthar to be tried by The Circle but I think his imprisonment by the Cylons is fitting, for now! He is so anguished, despondent, suffering....and he deserves it. I think, however, his narcissism is almost campy.

I was worried that Gaita would be executed. Thank goodness Kara's ranting was heard by the Chief. Even Tigh had to back off.

I haven't quite decided if Madame President's amnesty is the answer but she seems more confident now than ever to lead. How will she "co-lead" with the Admiral? I mean, civilian and military work together? He seemed to respect her stand to be just with the "traitors."

I give this an 8. OK, now where will the story take us?

ShadowMaat

October 27th, 2006, 06:40 PM

Major Fischer

October 27th, 2006, 06:41 PM

Not sure I agree with Roslin and her reconcilation. On one hand I see the need for it, the need to put the past 16 months behind them but I do think the worst of the collaborators need to pay. Not someone that worked for the Cylons but someone that helped surpress the Colonials. Baltar for sure would be that list, the worst of the NCP.

Go look at South Africa, that's where they stole the idea from, and it's considered one of the best thing that could have been done to bring some healing to that society.

titans

October 27th, 2006, 06:41 PM

Stef

October 27th, 2006, 06:58 PM

I can't tell you guys how much I was screaming at the TV tonight....and I've been sick all week. I just got so upset when "the circle" kept saying how they were issuing justice when what they were really doing, as many of you have pointed out, was getting revenge. Connor (or Ladin from Atlantis) wanted Jammer dead because he was responsible for his son's death. He even said that, so how is that not revenge?

I felt bad for Jammer. Yeah, he was involved in some horrible things but did he deserve to be executed because of everyone's suffering at the hands of the Cylons? No. Granted, I didn't experience what the New Capricans did....but that's exactly why they SHOULDN'T have been the "jury." Jammer wasn't orchestrating anything, he didn't go out thinking about murdering people...he was trying to do good but got caught up in something bad. Honestly, how many times have we heard about the military killing innocent people because they were being fired upon (or thought they were being fired upon)? Should he have been punished? Debateably yes, but not by "the circle" and not by the cold vacuum of space.

I honestly was about ready to hate every person in "the circle"...but I'm glad to see that at least Tyrol and Anders were trying to be "fair." Kara and Connor just seemed to want to kill everyone. And what's up with Kara? She's a bit psycho (although, can't say I blame her after what happened). In her current state, she probably wasn't the best candidate to replace Anders.

Has anyone looked at the new clip online? I'm excited after what I saw...although it's strange that the commentary about tonight's episode came from the two people not involved: Jamie Bamber and Tahmoh Penikett. Looks like some good stuff is coming up for Kara and that Papa Adama is going to take her to task. Good. But after tonight's episode, I am really not liking Kara. She's been borderline with me since the end of last season (she was a...witch to Lee).

You know, I never thought I'd see the day when I actually LIKED Anders (being a Lee/Kara shipper). He is actually one of the few people that has always been rational about things, more or less. I'm glad he and Kara broke up but I wouldn't mind seeing him pop up or have some sort of important job on Galactica in the future....at least he has a conscience. I've also come out of this episode liking Tyrol more. I'm at least glad he wasn't gung-ho to just kill everyone but wanted legitimate evidence...and even then he wasn't comfortable with it. As for the rest of the characters....I was glad to see how P.Oed Papa Adama was about the executions. And I respect Roslin even more for the tough decision she made tonight.

But Gaeta took the cake for me. I've always been okay with the character but tonight I really came to respect him. Alessandro Juliani was amazing. I've been dreading this episode all week because I was afraid they were going to execute him...so I'm glad Tyrol stopped it. Seriously, all of the characters involved would have been dead to me if they had killed Gaeta. And I really liked how Tyrol sat with him in the end...it just makes me angry that after everything he did (essentially SAVING ALL OF THEM that he is being treated so poorly). Hopefully, they will spread the word about Gaeta's heroic deeds.

So far this season has completely upended my feelings about characters...I don't particularly care for Kara anymore, but I like Anders. I'm not exactly praising Lee, and I don't hate Dee anymore. Gaeta has become more than just a background character, Tyrol has become more interesting....hell, I didn't even hate Ellen Tigh in the last episode. When I heard about the changes this season, I really had no idea.

-Stef

Spankmonkeylove

October 27th, 2006, 07:00 PM

This is off topic but I'm wondering if anyone caught the code for the video content because I missed it.

Skydiver

October 27th, 2006, 07:00 PM

just like shadow i was 'i thought baltar got left behind', then realized it was a dream

and you're right, jammer joined AFTER that woman was killed when the temple was raided

as to families on the ships, realistically there should have been something else in place simply because, wasn't ti last year that roslyn gave the order that anyone that could should have babies? or something to that effect

tigh....well now that baltar is 'gone' for a while, they need an antagonist, and that'll be tigh.

the question will be how long will adama tolerate him before he slaps him down...and how hard will the slapdown be

Skydiver

October 27th, 2006, 07:03 PM

ShadowMaat

October 27th, 2006, 07:05 PM

Oh and another question: has the population count been in the opening sequence right along or did they just add it tonight? And how does it compare to our last known count?

titans

October 27th, 2006, 07:08 PM

the code is rift

and jammer, jammer meant well. he joined the ncp not for power, but to try and help the humans. i felt that, if he was there, maybe the toasters would leave them alone and he could practice some leniency

he meant well. he wasn't evil or mean or doing it for his own good, he was trying to do it for the greater good

Wait he wasn't "evil or mean"?? He joined up with the people who slaughtered BILLIONS of people, wiped his whole race off the face of the universe. The people who were killing and torturing the few remainders and he wasn't evil? Working with them in any way is evil.

titans

October 27th, 2006, 07:10 PM

Oh and another question: has the population count been in the opening sequence right along or did they just add it tonight? And how does it compare to our last known count?

Tonight were at 41,435...last one I remember was about 48,000ish

It's amazing when you realize you could fit the remainder of humanity into a small Major League Baseball stadium.

ShadowMaat

October 27th, 2006, 07:13 PM

jdog

October 27th, 2006, 07:14 PM

Shouldn't tigh be wearing an eye patch by now?? That tape but be a pain in the arsssss.

Also I think Adama is not going to be able to control tigh anymore. Anyone else agree?

Stef

October 27th, 2006, 07:19 PM

Wait he wasn't "evil or mean"?? He joined up with the people who slaughtered BILLIONS of people, wiped his whole race off the face of the universe. The people who were killing and torturing the few remainders and he wasn't evil? Working with them in any way is evil.

Yes, but didn't Roslin or someone else say in the first two episodes that the people who joined the New Caprican police honestly believed that they were helping the humans because they thought it was better if they were policing the New Capricans rather than the Cylons? They were coming from a good place...they just wound up doing bad things. I definitely wouldn't say that they were "evil," just naive, trusting, and rather idealistic. Besides, if Jammer was truly evil I doubt he would have saved Cally.

But I suppose that depends on your definition of the word "evil." I tend to reserve that word for cold-blooded murderers and sociopaths.

-Stef

ToasterOnFire

October 27th, 2006, 07:20 PM

Decent ep. Not the OMG of the previous ep, but it was still solid and shook up a lot of relationships.

-So, no Adama/Roslin reunion scene. No real scenes at all between them. Boo, I say boo sir.

-I figured Jammer was airlocked as soon as I saw him in the teaser. If his 'trial' was featured later in the ep I might have thought he had a chance, but showing it so early meant he was going to be spaced as the climax into the credits.

-Cally, wha? Who forgets about someone cutting your bonds and yelling at you to escape from what you thought was certain death?

-Ha, I thought that Roslin would elect Zarek as VP. And I was all for the duo until I found out that he was responsible for the Circle. Is he going to keep his position after he revealed his actions to her? Adama looks less than impressed with him. How did Zarek turn from an ex-prisoner demanding democracy in the fleet to a president okay with trials kept hidden from the public?

-Tigh's lost it and I find myself more peeved with him than sympathetic. Openly attacking Gaeta on the CIC and arguing with Adama was OTT. I feel like he died back on NC and there's only a shell walking around. Will he heal or will TPTB kill him off in some kind of suicide run? And why does Adama allow him to remain as 2IC (if that's what he is) when Tigh so obviously needs ten years or so of downtime and Lee or Helo could take his place?

-No discussion on who's the higher rank now, Tigh or Lee. What's Lee doing nowadays besides the jumprope? And what's up with Adama's cold dismissal toward his son, especially after their reunion last ep?

-Poor Gaeta. No one wants to eat lunch with him in the mess hall, Starbuck gives him a good boot, and he almost dies. At least he didn't beg. I wonder if the ep would have been more powerful if they had killed Gaeta before realizing that he was the contact. Of course, then he would have been dead and I'm still recovering from Billy.

-It would have been nice to see Sharon. What would the Circle have thought of her? Does she get a pardon because she's working for Adama now and helped save them, even though she's a cylon?

-Meh, losing the Starbuck love this ep. She's going through tough times after her capture, she knows she's going through tough times, but she doesn't care. She dumps Anders, she goes after Gaeta with a viciousness. So that's the end of Starbuck/Anders, total shock really (/sarcasm). Next ep - the end of Lee/Dee (okay, maybe not next ep but I can't see that one going long if TPTB are setting up Lee/Kara). I swear, if TPTB keep Starbuck around as a total wreck just waiting for Lee to come in and save her, I'm going to be most disappointed.

-Ha ha, Baltar. IM IN UR BASESTAR, WEARIN UR ROBEZ. I can't believe that the cylons are going to kill him off, so I'm interested in where this is going. Anyone catch what those pills were? Also, would Roslin have pardoned Baltar too if he was on Galactica?

hoof

October 27th, 2006, 07:23 PM

Good episode. Covered a lot of ground.

-Interesting choice on how to resolve the presidency. I would not have been surprised if the people, after the New Caprica events, would be willing to go to a more tribal form of government. Democracy is a good thing, but when survival is on the line, do you really want the mob deciding things like which planet we should colonize? Maybe, maybe not, but this is an interesting example of where the mob can choose wrong. I suspect that had Zarek not done what he did, the democracy would have not survived.

People change after they go through a really traumatic experience. Yes, the loss of the colonies was traumatic, but the survivors (with a few exceptions) didn't directly experience the horrors. They were cooped up on ships with the threat of imminent death, but that's different than the experience of being occupied and going through what happened on New Caprica. I'll be curious how BSG handles this change.

-Glad to see the screwed up Galactica in the CGI. Too many shows "reset" after something like that. Galactica got pounded, you don't take that kind of pounding and come through unscathed. I'll be curious on how the series treats this damage. It's quite likely that Galactica can no longer "hold off" a baseship like she used to.

-The secret trials were an interesting facet to explore. All throughout history have these sort of "trials" been held after experiences like this. I wouldn't be surprised if there were secret trials after the American Revolution. Especially interesting was Jammer's defence, how many times have US soldiers in a more modern war dealt with similar situations? I suspect that had Jammer realized that the Chief was in the insurgency, he'd probably have phrased his defence differently. Also relavent is that even in horrible times, sometimes the best move is to allow amnesty. One can debate whether that's the right move here, but it (as many things in the series) does have real-world relavence (like the point made earlier in the thread about South Africa).

-I was, frankly, surprised at how much new CGI footage we saw. After Exodus II, I'd figure that BSG had blown it's budget for CGI for the next five episodes at least. Also, there seems in this episode to be more panning and "traditional" camerawork on the outside shots, as opposed to the normal "shaky-cam" look.

-Glad to see Gaeta survive. However, that's uncharacteristic of the series. Normal would be Gaeta being expelled out of the tube, Kara ranting about him making up the story about a dog bowl with Chief overhearing her, then everyone realizing that he was the informant. That is what I would have expected. RDM continues to surprise us. Or maybe Gaeta is too important a character to let die like that :)

titans

October 27th, 2006, 07:25 PM

Yes, but didn't Roslin or someone else say in the first two episodes that the people who joined the New Caprican police honestly believed that they were helping the humans because they thought it was better if they were policing the New Capricans rather than the Cylons? They were coming from a good place...they just wound up doing bad things. I definitely wouldn't say that they were "evil," just naive, trusting, and rather idealistic. Besides, if Jammer was truly evil I doubt he would have saved Cally.

But I suppose that depends on your definition of the word "evil." I tend to reserve that word for cold-blooded murderers and sociopaths.

-Stef

Let me put it this way...Say one day Chinese tanks started rolling down your street. Say they started facing resistance from americans just like you and me. Then say posters started popping up encouraging people like you and me to join the Chinese sponcored police force. What would you do?

Yea thats what I thought.

titans

October 27th, 2006, 07:28 PM

Shouldn't tigh be wearing an eye patch by now?? That tape but be a pain in the arsssss.

Also I think Adama is not going to be able to control tigh anymore. Anyone else agree?

They kept trying to put an eye patch on him but it kept popping off every time he flexed his head muscles...the guy is Hardcore ya know!

jdog

October 27th, 2006, 07:31 PM

Tigh is not hardcore, he's extreeeemeeeee.

Exo X they call him.

The cylons awoke a sleeping giant with that one.....

Stef

October 27th, 2006, 07:34 PM

-Ha ha, Baltar. IM IN UR BASESTAR, WEARIN UR ROBEZ. I can't believe that the cylons are going to kill him off, so I'm interested in where this is going. Anyone catch what those pills were? Also, would Roslin have pardoned Baltar too if he was on Galactica?
Oh, Roslin may have pardoned him...but I doubt that would matter to anyone. She'd probably know that he would be taken care of no matter what.

Honestly though, Baltar has intrigued me so far this season. I actually felt sympathy for the first time in 3 seasons for him during that scene after he was forced to sign the death warrants...when Gaeta came in and Baltar was just despondant in the chair. AMAZING scene, great acting by James.

I'm also interested in those pills. Was he taking pills at the end of the second season, in addition to drinking? Maybe he has a pill problem, just one of many of his problems right now, I would say.

Meh, losing the Starbuck love this ep. She's going through tough times after her capture, she knows she's going through tough times, but she doesn't care. She dumps Anders, she goes after Gaeta with a viciousness. So that's the end of Starbuck/Anders, total shock really (/sarcasm). Next ep - the end of Lee/Dee (okay, maybe not next ep but I can't see that one going long if TPTB are setting up Lee/Kara). I swear, if TPTB keep Starbuck around as a total wreck just waiting for Lee to come in and save her, I'm going to be most disappointed.
ITA. Starbuck, not so much a favorite anymore. But I don't think we're supposed to like her at this point. Besides, I've always had a love/hate relationship with that character.

I'm glad her and Anders are done (though I like Anders) but she has to go through A LOT more before she and Lee can even consider doing anything. I don't want Lee to "save her" but it would be nice if he helped her deal with some of the aftermath....on an emotional level, as a friend. She needs someone to help her through this, she ain't gonna be able to do it alone...especially since she seems hell-bent on holding onto that anger. Although, judging from the clip I saw on SCI-FI.com, it looks like she might just get a little kick in the butt in the next episode or two. But I heard that her and Lee sort through some "stuff" in episode 8...so who knows?

-Stef

Stef

October 27th, 2006, 07:46 PM

Let me put it this way...Say one day Chinese tanks started rolling down your street. Say they started facing resistance from americans just like you and me. Then say posters started popping up encouraging people like you and me to join the Chinese sponcored police force. What would you do?

Yea thats what I thought.
I'm not sure I get your point. No, I wouldn't join...but that still doesn't mean that the people who would are "evil". Yeah, it's a poor decision on their part but that doesn't mean that they're horrible human beings...just misguided and naive. That is, unless those people that joined did it merely for the opportunity to kill people because they think it would be fun.

The New Caprican police force was told that they would be keeping relations between the Cylons and humans peaceful, they thought they would be helping their people by eliminating dangerous conflicts that could get them killed. I wouldn't say that is the mark of villainy.

Besides, are the Chinese in that situation even "evil"? I suppose that depends on the eye of the beholder. Let's not forget the reason the Cylons came to New Caprica. If they wanted to just destroy everyone, they easily could have. They came with the purpose to co-exist with the humans, after realizing that their genocide had been a mistake. Did they go about it wrong, you're damn right they did...but isn't that usually the case? Theoretics are a lot easier than reality (just look at the concept of Communism...good on paper...not so good in reality). I think classifying groups into either "good" or "evil" is too simplistic for my taste.

-Stef

quara33

October 27th, 2006, 08:08 PM

About the Jammer joining the NCP after the temple raid:

The raid on the temple in the webisodes was a different raid:
1) centurions, not NCP shot up the temple
2) 10 people not 23 people died in that raid

Jammer was convicted of leading a different raid (potentially on an entirely different temple). Jammer confesses to having been present, having killed people as they surrendered, thinking they were insurgents. Not the raid we saw in the webisodes, where centurions opened fire on the temple, killing people inside.

Thermonuclearboy

October 27th, 2006, 08:50 PM

Gaeta Lives! WOO-HOO!

He didn't beg. He didn't crawl. He walked out on his own two feet. Gaeta is The Man.

Legionnaire

October 27th, 2006, 09:09 PM

Pretty good episode. Fast breakup between Kara and Anders, I wonder if thats paving the way for someone new for Kara or if shes in for a long dark road of solidarity after the whole Leoben incident.

Tigh was a mess in CIC but i think we all saw his being asked to take time away from being XO coming. He actually reminded me of his drinking days.

I was kinda hoping Zarek would remain president haha, that woulda been pretty sweet, but i suppose being VP will have to do, and I do agree with Roslin for pardoning everyone and moving on, we saw what the secret trials were doing and how they almost and possibly did get things wrong, its better to just put everything behind and move on and start anew.

Fast breakup between 6 and Baltar too, now I see Deanna moving in on him, looks like there might be a thing between those two. Plus its always good to have Baltar display some comic relief in an otherwise dark episode.

Hooray for Gaeta living, the poor guy got the Helo and Sharon treatment.

But next episode, hoooooooooly crap looks like its gonna be big. Road to earth! Cyclons want to make earth their new home! Theres gonna be so many questions, plus it sounds like its a much clearer way home to earth so it brings up how long this show plans on being around, cause if they find earth by the end of, say this season, then what?

KezatheAscended

October 27th, 2006, 09:14 PM

Goodgoodgoodgood.

I would of voted guilty on Jammer too, but I still can't believe they actually killed him. Dunno why that was really a shock...but it was. Like when they actually went thru with the suicide bombing.

Everything is getting crazy. I would not have voted guilty on Gaeta either...so glad he said something. Powerful scene.

The Colonel is letting grief cloud judgement. He wants revenge. It is not justice.

Starbuck is pissing me off...what the hell is she thinking!!!! Can't do that to Sam..ahhhh!!!! I could have really punched her there. She is definitly gonna regret that...

And Ros...with the pardon...that was way unexpected...great though. And great scene with Chief and Gaeta at the end. Emotional...powerful

Even though that was no really action it was a terrific epi...and I was wierded out by Number Six for some reason. Not sure I'm liking her anymore. And Baltar's dream was fraking crazy...

CaraRose

October 27th, 2006, 09:24 PM

I'm not sure I get your point. No, I wouldn't join...but that still doesn't mean that the people who would are "evil". Yeah, it's a poor decision on their part but that doesn't mean that they're horrible human beings...just misguided and naive. That is, unless those people that joined did it merely for the opportunity to kill people because they think it would be fun.

The New Caprican police force was told that they would be keeping relations between the Cylons and humans peaceful, they thought they would be helping their people by eliminating dangerous conflicts that could get them killed. I wouldn't say that is the mark of villainy.

Besides, are the Chinese in that situation even "evil"? I suppose that depends on the eye of the beholder. Let's not forget the reason the Cylons came to New Caprica. If they wanted to just destroy everyone, they easily could have. They came with the purpose to co-exist with the humans, after realizing that their genocide had been a mistake. Did they go about it wrong, you're damn right they did...but isn't that usually the case? Theoretics are a lot easier than reality (just look at the concept of Communism...good on paper...not so good in reality). I think classifying groups into either "good" or "evil" is too simplistic for my taste.

-Stef

This show is about questioning good and evil and realizing that nobody is either. Its all shades of gray. Hell, I don't even think the Cylons are in black and white as evil.

I think here, though, the main issue is the idea of action versus intent. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, as they say. Clearly, the intent of doing harm was not in the collaborators. Collaborators were either trying to help people, or protect themselves and their families. I don't think any of them did so with the intent of doing harm to their people.

At the same time actions were done that did a great deal of harm. Doesn't Connor deserve justice for his son's death. Jammer was directly involved in killing his seven year old. Shouldn't he have to pay for that action, no matter what his intentions? He was part of a group that killed 23 people. Doesn't he have to answer for that? Don't the dead and their survivors scream for someone to be held accountable, for the scales to be evened?

Yes, the circle was about revenge. But the main difference between justice and revenge, honestly, is that revenge is personal, justice is societal revenge. This is why the death penality exists. Why do we kill someone who's convicted of killing someone? Because justice must be served-- somehow, there are scales that are tipped out of balance, and only the death of the killer will set them right. Justice is meant to end the cycles of revenge by taking it out of the hands of the indivuals and putting it in the public to judge. The circle were trying to heal the hurt that was done to them, to get their measure of flesh for flesh. And I could easily argue that they were justified in both wanting and carrying that out. But the problem with revenge being personal is that it tends not to end. What if Jammer had a girlfriend who loved him? Doesn't she deserve the same right to seek her revenge on those who killed him as his murderers had to seek their revenge on him.

Its complicated stuff, and hell, it should be.

THSEX1138

October 27th, 2006, 09:25 PM

Gaius Baltar is the master of the game. I marvel at his methods of manipulation and cunning. There is a moment on the Cylon Basestar where he tells Six "I'm the only one who can make this better." I believe he's very sincere in this statement. His hands are closed as if in prayer, the white robe and the long hair. HE LOOKS LIKE JESUS. I'm rooting for Gaius! The Cylons have made an error in allowing him to get so close. Gaius Baltar will save all of humanity.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e147/thsex1138/Collaboratorsthsex1138Baltar-1.jpg

Legionnaire

October 27th, 2006, 09:27 PM

Well, Baltars greatest talent is his ability to survive, he really does have animal instincts, and I'm sure he will outsmart the machines.

Miracle_007

October 27th, 2006, 09:32 PM

*Did anyone else get the impression that Three model was trying to flirt with Gaius? Upon watching the episode a second time, she obviously made a gesture to touch him while handing him his medicine then proceded to try and sit close to him on the couch all the while scantly clad.

*Also, Caprica Six seemed to be forcing herself to pull away from Gauis. I have a feeling she will somehow run to him in his time of need if the vote goes against him.

*Didnt really like Starbucks aggression toward Geata in this episode, wanting him to "beg".

Gate gal

October 27th, 2006, 09:43 PM

That Baltar dream sequence worked perfectly for me because thanks to my short attention span I'd forgotten that Baltar wasn't rescued by the humans. ;) Ironically it foreshadowed events, though, as Roslyn's general pardon includes him.
You know I thought the same thing when Roslin gave the general pardon. Baltar is going to get away with it. I do think Roslin realized that she didn't have much choice but to pardon everyone. She had to know that others would take up the work that the Circle was doing. Her main objective is to save humanity, and she didn't need a civil war in the fleet. Ironically, her presidential pardon could potentially lead to a civil war anyway. Look at Starbuck. She told her husband she needed this in reference to being part of the Circle. I feel so sorry for her right now, and I don't think she is alone in her need for vengence. I love Tigh's new edge. Insanity works well for him, but I bet it is only temporary. It is also cool to see him working with Starbuck instead of picking on her. Chief is really becoming important to the show this season, too. I hate that he was involved in the Circle, but I'm glad he was there. He and Anders were the only two not looking for a blood bath.

Also, on the Baltar issue, I love that it is number 6 who can't decide what to do with him. That is justice!

Stef

October 27th, 2006, 09:49 PM

At the same time actions were done that did a great deal of harm. Doesn't Connor deserve justice for his son's death. Jammer was directly involved in killing his seven year old. Shouldn't he have to pay for that action, no matter what his intentions? He was part of a group that killed 23 people. Doesn't he have to answer for that? Don't the dead and their survivors scream for someone to be held accountable, for the scales to be evened?

Yes, the circle was about revenge. But the main difference between justice and revenge, honestly, is that revenge is personal, justice is societal revenge. This is why the death penality exists. Why do we kill someone who's convicted of killing someone? Because justice must be served-- somehow, there are scales that are tipped out of balance, and only the death of the killer will set them right. Justice is meant to end the cycles of revenge by taking it out of the hands of the indivuals and putting it in the public to judge. The circle were trying to heal the hurt that was done to them, to get their measure of flesh for flesh. And I could easily argue that they were justified in both wanting and carrying that out. But the problem with revenge being personal is that it tends not to end. What if Jammer had a girlfriend who loved him? Doesn't she deserve the same right to seek her revenge on those who killed him as his murderers had to seek their revenge on him.

I agree with you on this. This is all very tricky, morally speaking. The thing here is that there is NO WAY this "jury" could have been serving justice because they were all so biased. I mean, Connor flat-out said as much right before Tigh knocked his head against the table....and Tigh wanted revenge for his eye and for Ellen, but he tried to convince himself he was doing justice. Then there's Starbuck who wanted to kill everyone. At least Anders and Tyrol were trying to base it on evidence. Although, let's not forget that they said point blank that they had no evidence against Gaeta and yet they were still going to execute him. Technically speaking, there should have been trials for each if they wanted true justice...of course there are problems with that as well (some of which Zarek pointed out).

I'm not saying the collaboraters shouldn't be punished...but I don't know if it was "the circle's" decision to make and if their punishments were equal to their crimes. Afterall, Jammer wasn't an assasin...he went there to arrest someone and things went out of hand. The same thing happened in Season 2 when they were distributing the food and nobody executed those soldiers...because they were serving Galactica. Shouldn't those men be held to the same standard? It's just a very complicated issue...which is, I'm sure, what the writers meant for. So, kudos to them.

And I completely agree with your point about Jammer's theoretical girlfriend. That's the problem with revenge...it doesn't end. And I suppose the fact that this seemed more like revenge than justice is really what irked me the most about the whole thing.

-Stef

Stef

October 27th, 2006, 09:53 PM

On another note....

I just went back and watched the Gaeta "trial" scene. That was really an amazing scene. I LOVED it. The way Gaeta didn't beg, the way his role in the insurgance was revealed, everyone's reactions. Just nicely written, acted, and directed.

BTW, love your banner, THSEX1138.

THSEX1138

October 27th, 2006, 10:01 PM

*Didnt really like Starbucks aggression toward Geata in this episode, wanting him to "beg".

Starbuck is trying to deal with the fact that while people were dying on New Caprica she was eating steak in a warm home. To make it even worse she had absolutely no part in the rescue mission whatsoever. IMO she developed feelings for Leoben when she believed he was the father of her child. All the remarks she made to Helo calling him "Stupid" when he told her that he loved Sharon the Cylon have comeback to haunt her. She is a shell of the woman she used to be.

PS Thanks Stef

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e147/thsex1138/Collaboratorsthsex1138Baltar-1.jpg

Gate gal

October 27th, 2006, 10:23 PM

Starbuck is trying to deal with the fact that while people were dying on New Caprica she was eating steak in a warm home. To make it even worse she had absolutely no part in the rescue mission whatsoever. IMO she developed feelings for Leoben when she believed he was the father of her child. All the remarks she made to Helo calling him "Stupid" when he told her that he loved Sharon the Cylon have comeback to haunt her. She is a shell of the woman she used to be.

PS Thanks Stef

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e147/thsex1138/Collaboratorsthsex1138Baltar.jpg
I actually like the direction Starbuck is going right now. It makes sense. Remember when Starbuck and Helo were in her apartment on Caprica, and she said (paraphrasing) she fought because it was what she was good at. Starbuck had nothing too fight for before the Cylon attack. Then she fell in love and started a life on New Caprica, and it all fell apart. During her time in captivity, she became a mom (something she never wanted to be). I think losing that little girl was just the last straw, and now she just wants to be the soldier fighting the battle again. In her mind, Anders is a threat. He represents what she thinks she can't have-normalcy, and honestly she's right. She can't be normal right now. None of them can, and the stress is causing them to crack. So while a part of me hates seeing Starbuck (and Tigh) in the new darker role, the other part of me loves it because its the human response.

IMAX

October 28th, 2006, 12:25 AM

I expected this ep to be slower. But it was intense.
Glad Gaeta didn't get deaded. Didn't expect Jammer to
get killed this quick.

I think Zarek's speech about "true justice" will cause Rosiln
to constantly look over her shoulder forever with him as VP.

"Keep Jumping..." That was funny...

Too tired to mention anything else. Must Sleep now...

Excali5033

October 28th, 2006, 12:32 AM

Some thoughts:

-Roslin's awesome, but that's TWICE she's gotten into office defacto, and it's getting kind of creepy.
-Argh, they have another frakking Resurrection Ship.
-Someone mentioned the Circle vs. Sharon, but she's probably the most well-protected person in the fleet, they would have never gotten near her.
-Well the good Doctor is with the Cylons now. Let's just hope he doesn't show up in charge of a basestar later.
-Keep jumping. Best line in the episode.
-I hope they don't forget Anders ever existed.

Lieutenant Colonel Davis

October 28th, 2006, 12:34 AM

I for one am glad that Gaeta lived. He is one of my favorite mambers of Galactica.

And for that person who wanted to see one of those group members tried, On TVGuide.com AA said that a member of the cerw is forced to quit and that person wont go quietly.

shockwave

October 28th, 2006, 02:52 AM

good ep, not as good as last week but that was hard to top

would've liked to see more of president zarek and the cylon basestar

so glad gaeta is still alive, I would really miss him

tigh and charlie connor (ladon from sga) are too revenge obsessed though

Backlash

October 28th, 2006, 03:57 AM

Thermonuclearboy

October 28th, 2006, 04:36 AM

Starbuck needs some professional help. Like, right now. I don't know if psychology exists in the BSG universe, but she needs some kind of counseling. Of couse, Starbuck being Starbuck, she'll never go. She's accustomed to being self-destructive - whether through violence, reckless flying, or drinking - and this will be her road for a long time now.

Tigh...I'm done with Tigh. For a brief moment I felt sorry for him. Then I was presented evidence as to how repulsive a human being he is. And it's only going to get worse, now that he has nothing to live for.

Gaeta's efforts need to be made public. Not just so he can sleep without fear of being code-reded by angry soldiers. He needs to be honored for his heroism. He was the bravest of them all in my opinion. Anyone can fire a gun or strap a bomb to their backs; to stay in the belly of the beast takes real courage.

aaobuttons

October 28th, 2006, 04:48 AM

I'm hoping this isn't the end of Anders. It doesn't look like it really, she did pull him back and kiss him, like she wants him to know she still loves him. He was a settling force for her, that spark of happiness she had been lacking. Hopefully she can work her way through her problems and then get things back on track with him... those marriage brands aren't an easy thing to remove! :D

And I'm all for Gaeta getting some sort of recognition for what he did. He got them the jamming codes, the death list, the location of the launch keys... without him, they would have had no hope of ever escaping!

somedude

October 28th, 2006, 05:43 AM

Othere

October 28th, 2006, 05:57 AM

Go look at South Africa, that's where they stole the idea from, and it's considered one of the best thing that could have been done to bring some healing to that society.

Yeah, because South Africa is a real success story.

This ep is different to the TRC. Roslin wasn't going to hear out each case, she just issued a blanket pardon - which is IMO better...the sins of the past stay in the past, and we look to the future.
The TRC heard every case in a long, drawn out process which I dont think actually helped that much...speaking as a south african...

CMiYC

October 28th, 2006, 06:32 AM

Is Zarek going to be an unstable element? Or was his concern on NC for Roslin geninue? Was the order he issued to keep the blood off of her hands or off of his?

I have to watch the episode again, but I left wondering if she wasn't behind (or agreed with) the original order...

Also, I wonder if the talk of Exodus Part II got new people excited over the action. If so, I can see this episode being dissappointing to new viewers. Hopefully the impact of a "sci-fi" show spending an entire episode on character development is still felt...

aaobuttons

October 28th, 2006, 06:44 AM

CaraRose

October 28th, 2006, 07:01 AM

The whole problem with revenge is that it never solves anything. Did killing Jammer bring back Connor's son? No, and nothing ever will. Would killing Gaeta have solved Kara's problems? No, and her misplaced rage only makes her less appealing as a character. Calling revenge "justice" was just a way for them to rationalize murder.

Does the death penalty, in a justice system (which I believe most likely existed in the pre-attack colonies) bring back those who were killed by the killer? Of course not, nothing ever will, so why have the death penality? In general (there are those of us who oppose it, obviously, but overall, a majority of people believe in capitol punishment), people find that capitol punishment is acceptable justice but vigilantism isn't. Why?

LOL, I apologize for starting to sound like an exam question for an ethics class :P But I think these are the questions we're supposed to be thinking about with this episode. Is justice state sanctioned revenge? And if it is, wasn't this state sanctioned? These people had the backing of the highest level of government. They weren't just crazy people who decided to kill people, they had orders and authorization for their actions. Does justice need to be public in order for it to actually be justice? Can you have secret trials and ever have justice? What IS justice?

On characters, none of these characters should be liked all of the time. I found Adama's actions horrible at the end of the first season when he locks Laura up, basically instigating a military coup of the goverment. Lee in the first few episodes of this season needed a good kick in the @$$. Starbuck, being as screwed up as she is, will have more ups and downs, and she's rightfully in a downward spiral right now. Her conversation with Anders summed up her mental state perfectly-- she's in pain, and because of that, she wants to hurt someone else, and doesn't particularly care who.

somedude

October 28th, 2006, 07:01 AM

It was a different massacre. The first massacre that killed Nora was done by the cylon centurians. They were referring to a different one done by the NCP, and Jammer admitted to being a part of it.

I think they mixed up their writing, because there was only one temple massacre, which was the one they hinted that Jammer was involved in.

If there should've been a 'circle', they certainly chose the wrong people to be on it. They chose the most emotionally unstable, most biased people.

SamanthaMarie88

October 28th, 2006, 07:07 AM

I can't believe Kara pushed Anders away. If he needs consoling, I volunteer! ;)

I'm glad they didn't kill him off yet. He is still in the fleet, waiting for Kara to get this anger out of her system and come back to him. She obviously wanted him to know that she loves him, but right know she is too angry and doesn't want him to be the one she takes her anger out on. Sorry Lee/Kara shippers, but I like her with Anders.

I've read in other posts that Michael Trucco was signed for 7 eps. Here's hoping that he has more to do than just the inevitable flash-back episodes that catch us up on the missing year. I'd love to see him get his hands on a Leoben model and kick his ass for frakking with his wife's mind and breaking up his marriage.

CaraRose

October 28th, 2006, 07:10 AM

Jammer should not have been executed. If ya'll have forgotten, in the webisodes, he joined the NCP AFTER the temple massacre, to 'prevent future massacres.' So, they never showed him killing anyone....

IMO, the writers made a big mistake on this one. Couldn't they have just thrown some nameless red shirt out the airlock instead....? or made Jammer a cylon?!

I agree with president Roslin's general amnesty- that has worked in south africa to restore the wounds of apartheid.

It was not the same raid as the webisode raid. In the webisodes, the raid was done by centurians, and is why Jammer decides to join the NCP. I know I can't be the only one to see the irony here between his reasons and his future actions.

It NEEDED to be Jammer to die here. This was an episode that needed to punch us hard in the gut, and do so right off the bat. Here's an established character, one that we have emotional ties to, and we see what they do, and have to find the balance of rightness or wrongness in their actions. We know Jammer saved Kalli, but does that cancel out his part in killing 23 people? Frankly, I think Jammer is guilty, and I think the Chief deciding that even if he did save Kalli, that wasn't enough to make up for his other actions, is correct. Yet were they right in carrying out his death sentence? Did his actions really justify theirs?

If it was a red shirt, we wouldn't have the same reaction. It wouldn't hit us in the gut the same way as it does with it being a character we have a link to.

CaraRose

October 28th, 2006, 07:20 AM

I think they mixed up their writing, because there was only one temple massacre, which was the one they hinted that Jammer was involved in.

There's no evidence that there was only one raid. His charges were -- "23 people were killed by you and your men on the assault of the temple of artemis." They don't even say "temple raid" here. They say assault on the temple of artemis. This was an entirely different event, one that we never saw, but Jammer even confesses to it.

aaobuttons

October 28th, 2006, 07:23 AM

I think they mixed up their writing, because there was only one temple massacre, which was the one they hinted that Jammer was involved in.

If there should've been a 'circle', they certainly chose the wrong people to be on it. They chose the most emotionally unstable, most biased people.

How do you know there was only 1? With 40,000 people, you don't think there would be more than 1 tiny tent temple? The only things we ever saw, were things involving the main characters, so if non of them were there we didn't see it. I'm sure there were many insurgent fights/massacres/etc by the NCP. Jammer even eluded to it, he said that insurgents were always acting like they were surrendering, putting their hands up and then firing on them. That's what he thought was happening when they opened fire and killed the people at the temple. It sounded like he was involved in several incidents that led to gunfire, not just the ones we saw on the episode.

silence

October 28th, 2006, 07:23 AM

i enjoyed this ep very much.... it was different then last one, that's for sure, but it was needed and was done really good. as for Jammer, i think they killed him off to get people thinking about whole incident and build up tension WRT Gaeta.
if they killed some redshirt, 90% of people wouldn't feel a thing and whole Gaeta thing wouldn't be as dramatic as it was...

i like the way they handled presidency, but undertones they opened will be prolly used in some eps to come... specially the fact that Adama is now in full control of fleet and it was him who "suggested" the switch and it was him who stood up first and backed Roslin's decision on reconciliation...

i might open Pandora box with next few lines, but i find it interesting that using suicide bombers started so much disscusion on politics in show, while personally i think this ep threw much more politics into the faces of viewers...

somedude

October 28th, 2006, 07:23 AM

It NEEDED to be Jammer to die here. This was an episode that needed to punch us hard in the gut, and do so right off the bat. Here's an established character, one that we have emotional ties to, and we see what they do, and have to find the balance of rightness or wrongness in their actions. We know Jammer saved Kalli, but does that cancel out his part in killing 23 people? Frankly, I think Jammer is guilty, and I think the Chief deciding that even if he did save Kalli, that wasn't enough to make up for his other actions, is correct. Yet were they right in carrying out his death sentence? Did his actions really justify theirs?

If it was a red shirt, we wouldn't have the same reaction. It wouldn't hit us in the gut the same way as it does with it being a character we have a link to.

I agree, storywise, Jammer had to die, so they could build up the emotion for Gaeta's trial.

Major Fischer

October 28th, 2006, 08:31 AM

...speaking as a south african...

I will be happy to bow to your knowledge of the actual situation, my professional experiance is in totalitarian states and in the grand scheme of how those resolve South Africa is considered a success story.

I doubt the BSG universe wants to go through two years of a running plot line where former NCP officers talk about torture though, which is why I think they went witha blanket pardon.

Incidently, I don't think the pardon applies to Baltar because he is still with the cylons and in the colonial's books that would be continuing his crimes.

Othere

October 28th, 2006, 09:11 AM

I will be happy to bow to your knowledge of the actual situation, my professional experiance is in totalitarian states and in the grand scheme of how those resolve South Africa is considered a success story.

I doubt the BSG universe wants to go through two years of a running plot line where former NCP officers talk about torture though, which is why I think they went witha blanket pardon.

Incidently, I don't think the pardon applies to Baltar because he is still with the cylons and in the colonial's books that would be continuing his crimes.

South africa is a hot potato, everyone was interested when it went racial, and now that things appear hunky dory people are looking elsewhere to get their news, but things aren't good out there, and probably wont be for a pretty long time to come - but it isn't news worthy...at least not outside of africa - same for Zims.

I just get a bit wound up when people say 'oh, but it is ok there now...when it's clearly not - not, I hasten to add, that this is what you or anyone else here was saying :), it's just a common thing I get went people ask me where I am from as I no longer have an accent (which is weird in itself as the SA twang is still there...barely :)) and a sensitive subject as most of my family has fled the random violence that has gripped the country. It is bad when as a young person you have absolutely no hope of contributing to the future of the new country.
But then it's not a subject I really wish to dwell on.

Back on Collaborators, I'm glad they went with the blanket pardon. I dont think anyone was really in it for their own gain, pretty much each and every person did it for their own reasons - to protect a loved one, to try to help the humans etc.
If they did go ahead and do the whole trial thing it would make pretty boring watching, and there would also be the issues of the resistance killing their own by accident/intention - they were not totally blameless.
The blanket pardon at least means that the fleet can get on with matters at hand - repairs, assignments etc, and get on with finding earth.

As for Baltar, I dont think he knows what he wants anymore, which could be interesting...

Scyld

October 28th, 2006, 09:30 AM

I really don't think that the death penalty should be a viable option in the rag-tag fleet. Consider: there are what, 44,000 humans left alive?

They kill one 'collaborator.' Oh, now there are 43,999.
They kill another. Now there are 43,998.
Another. 43,997.
Another. 43,996.
Another. 43,995.

These numbers aren't going up very quickly, folks. There was something of a baby boom on New Caprica before the Cylons showed up, and that's going to help a little bit, but it will be a while before those kids are old enough to be anything other than dependants.

They can't afford the luxury of capital punishment any more than they can afford the luxury of abortion; every human that dies in the fleet brings the human race one step closer to extinction.

Skydiver

October 28th, 2006, 09:52 AM

which is a very good point.

and where do you draw the line at collaborating? those in the ncp? those that were detained and might have talked? those that helped the cylons in any way?

so if there as a fight and 'ted' pulled 'jack' back to keep 'jack' from shooting a cylon...does that make 'ted' a collaborator? it could be argued that he helped the cylons after all.

It could even be argued that everyone that didn't overtly fight is a collaborator.

that way lies madness and extinction. they don't have that luxury now. they need to survive

I sincerely doubt that it'll be 'ok, they're pardoned now, it's all happy families'. there will be fallout from this for years and years

NotAscended

October 28th, 2006, 10:39 AM

Re: Starbuck asking Gaeta to beg

Starbuck is trying to deal with the fact that while people were dying on New Caprica she was eating steak in a warm home. To make it even worse she had absolutely no part in the rescue mission whatsoever. IMO she developed feelings for Leoben when she believed he was the father of her child. All the remarks she made to Helo calling him "Stupid" when he told her that he loved Sharon the Cylon have comeback to haunt her. She is a shell of the woman she used to be.

I agree with that take on Starbuck's behavior. I don't think asking him to beg for his life was about Gaeta, but about Starbuck. She had him imprisioned there (as she had been imprisioned by Leoban) and wanted him to accede to her wishes in order to live (as she had eventually caved into Leoban at the end). I think she simply wanted to break someone the way she had been broken. She has clearly felt powerless and angry since returning to Galactica, and told Anders she wanted to hurt someone. Gaeta was just the first person she had a chance to hurt.

Of course, that just means that Kara is a deeply, deeply disturbed person now and is going to continue frakking up royally for some time to come.

dosed150

October 28th, 2006, 11:01 AM

are we sure zarek is still going to be roslins vice president she did not seem pleased with him after his actions so wouldnt she want to have someone else i was thinking she was going to announce someone near the end

Skydiver

October 28th, 2006, 11:16 AM

chances are, when push comes to shove, roslyn will back out of her offer, get someone else to be vice prez, and then make zarek as an enemy

kt22

October 28th, 2006, 11:21 AM

Overall, the episode was good. However, as much as I liked the moments with Baltar, I think the episode would have been stronger had he not been in it at all.

Does anyone else think that Col. Tigh would like really cool with an eye patch.

Major Fischer

October 28th, 2006, 11:24 AM

South africa is a hot potato, everyone was interested when it went racial, and now that things appear hunky dory people are looking elsewhere to get their news, but things aren't good out there, and probably wont be for a pretty long time to come - but it isn't news worthy...at least not outside of africa - same for Zims.

You are correct, and I did infact know it wasn't a simple solution, however I consider the Zims to be in a lot worse shape... but they've always had an even messier history. Damn Cecil Rhodes :) I think you are right though, people have short attention spans, those same people think the German unification was happy and successful with no problems and no lasting inequalities.

I think the real testiment to how messy and how horrible these things often are is the lengths that the South Korean government will go to to prop up the PRK, because the prospect of cleaning up after societal collapse is so much worse.

BSG doesn't choose easy answers though, which is one of the things I like about it. As you have rightly pointed out, TRCs have their problems, they are simply different problems than starchamber courts.

somedude

October 28th, 2006, 11:49 AM

Re: Starbuck asking Gaeta to beg

I agree with that take on Starbuck's behavior. I don't think asking him to beg for his life was about Gaeta, but about Starbuck. She had him imprisioned there (as she had been imprisioned by Leoban) and wanted him to accede to her wishes in order to live (as she had eventually caved into Leoban at the end). I think she simply wanted to break someone the way she had been broken. She has clearly felt powerless and angry since returning to Galactica, and told Anders she wanted to hurt someone. Gaeta was just the first person she had a chance to hurt.

Of course, that just means that Kara is a deeply, deeply disturbed person now and is going to continue frakking up royally for some time to come.

If Starbuck returns to active duty, with her still emotionally unbalanced self, she's going to get other Viper pilots killed.

silence

October 28th, 2006, 11:52 AM

Overall, the episode was good. However, as much as I liked the moments with Baltar, I think the episode would have been stronger had he not been in it at all.

indeed.

Admiral Mappalazarou

October 28th, 2006, 12:11 PM

How brutal was that? I hated the scene when Kara broke up with her bf...that's upsetting, why did she kiss him though I wonder?

At the ending scenes when Six was folding up Baltar's clothes - does that mean that she was showing love for him? or that she is preparing his clothes for his trial? It was stated that the Six's didn't know whether to keep him alive or not. Hmmmmmm, We'll see...
yay, Gaeta lives, and he's a hero!!!! :) I'm glad he didn't die because he's great...I think that ending scene where the Cheif shares a meal with Gaeta should've had the music from the end of the previous ep - what I like to call the BSG 'hero' music :)

Great episode, and Baltar's dream scene was hysterical.

TameFarrar

October 28th, 2006, 12:19 PM

I am guessing that I am in a minority here. I personally was completely rivited to this episode whereas the last three have bored me quite a bit. While I loved all the battle scenes, the character moments of past episodes left me dry.

This episode fulfilled many hopes on my part possibly BECAUSE it WAS a Character driven episode.

Interspersed with all of the drama was some well placed lines that had me laughing out loud and the fact that the episode touched me on many emotional levels always thrills me :)

After having a heated discussion with Hubs about the right and wrong of the *Circle* the way the episode played out made the actions of the *six man/woman jury* at least legal. Hubs finally convinced me of this :) They didn't kill anyone after Laura took office and her blanket pardon IMO covered them as well if there was any question.

I look for Laura to rescind the VP offer to Zerek though.

Kara is my favorite character on the show and so far she is still my fave :) For me this character has stayed true to what I believe has been her MO the entire series. Everything MUST be on her terms and if its not she fights it. So having that control ripped from her at the hands of a cylon and then having the only *good thing* she *thought* might have come from her many ordeals with the cylons, basically thrust in her face aa a huge lie. Well I can see the *trueness* of her reaction. She is a product of an abused childhood and one of two things happens from that normally. Either the abused child finds a way to love themselves and grow past the abuser's scorn and the pain received OR they find themselves continuing the cycle either on themselves or inflicting it on others. Kara had seemed to be trying to find a way beyond that mentality and look where it got her in her eyes....nowhere good that is for sure.
So now she has to wrestle with that demon and still decide how to conduct herself as well as decide how she will perceive herself.
So I think it will be heart-wrenching as well as brillant to watch her try to tackle all of her own demons and still function daily.

My two favorite moments were Baltar saying he was dreaming when Laura said she wanted him... THAT was just to funny that he KNEW that :D and of course Adama's dead apn expression as he said "Keep jumping" as well as the look on Lee's face...had me rolling in laughter :)

foxhound22

October 28th, 2006, 12:20 PM

I really enjoyed the episode. I thought it was probably one of the darkest episodes yet.

Reminds me of all I read about what happened in a lot of European countries after the Nazi occupations in WWII. Collaborators were shot, rounded up, etc. I did enjoy that scene:

When they have Gaeta in the airlock and he refuses to beg. And how it came out that it was because of him that the fleet was able to pull off the rescue. Glad to see him surivive I really like him. Now he just needs a haircut.

Smashing Young Man

October 28th, 2006, 12:21 PM

I really have nothing new to add to what others have said, but I would like to express my wish that Baltar return to somewhat of his comedic relief role, and there was a hint of that in this episode, as dark as its overall tone was.

Of course, I don't mean that the character be played purely for yuks, as he was never that. But there have been plenty of genuinely humorous moments involving Baltar, especially in the first season. I would think that his being on the baseship will provide plenty of opportunity for comical situations to help break up the often dreary and depressing tone of the series; Baltar is at his humorous best when he's placed in extremely stressful situations, and he's certainly in a stressful situation now.

LoneStar1836

October 28th, 2006, 12:34 PM

The episode was kind of slow but it didn’t drag. I enjoyed it for the wonderful character moments (except for that stupid moment from Cally. “Umm….let me see if I can remember that moment when I was about to die and somebody frees me. Oh yeah, that did happen.” Like anyone is going to forget that.), but did have some other problems with it...mainly the political stuff.

I feel kind of sorry for Jammer, but then again I don’t. I’m sure when he initially joined the NCP that he was doing it for noble reasons, but then when he got involved in the squads that rounded up people for detention and then death squad detail, he knew what he was doing. Those trucks weren’t just going for a Sunday drive in the countryside. I don’t so much fault him for his roll in the temple killings, but more for his participation in the death squad round-ups. He got caught up in crap he never intended to do but yet he remained on the police force. His death was effective. It had to be him and not some random red shirt. It helped to really convey the feeling that maybe, just maybe, Gaeta would be killed.

I just went back and watched the Gaeta "trial" scene. That was really an amazing scene. I LOVED it. The way Gaeta didn't beg, the way his role in the insurgance was revealed, everyone's reactions. Just nicely written, acted, and directed.Agreed. I thought the scene was really well done and one of my favorites in this ep. along with Jammer’s execution, Tigh’s rant in CIC, and of course Adama’s reply to Lee informing him that he’s been jumping rope. :D

I’ve regained my respect for Gaeta. I considered him somewhat of a weasel after he joined Baltar’s staff. I didn’t hold it against him for staying on after the Cylons arrived because he did help the resistance. It takes a strong fortitude to endure the ridicule and dirty looks from practically everyone while seeing it as his duty to come back to his ship and help out and then later resume his duties as an officer. I liked that he didn’t beg for his life (because what was the point in doing it now).

How did Zarek turn from an ex-prisoner demanding democracy in the fleet to a president okay with trials kept hidden from the public?That’s kind of what I’d like to know.

I have a problem with Zarek being the one to agree so easily to the 6-man hit squads and then signing off on the death warrants. This is rather different from the man he started off as in “Bastille Day”. I know he started off as a “freedom fighter” to some, ”terrorist” to most others, but I’m not quite sure I see him agreeing to having these essentially death squads trying and executing “collaborators” without a fair hearing to include legal representation. These people are Colonial citizens and thus they fall under the protection of whatever Colonial document provides for their rights, etc. Zarek seems to have legitimately believed in democracy, even though he was power hungry as well when the fleet split into two in season two. I guess he truly thought it was for the best, but it rather goes against who he is, imo.

I’m not exactly sure if I like how Roslin regained the office of the president. It’s more like a dictatorship that is now backed by the military. The people really had no say in her “re-election.” I know the Quorum of 12 (which represents the people) vote for the vice president. So technically, yes they had a say through their representative, but did the Quorum know about the little deal between her and Zarek? I’m assuming Roslin will be serving out the remainder of Baltar/Zarek’s term. She can have her own little dictatorship in theory. If they loosely follow the U.S. Constitution and our rules for electing a president/presidential terms, then Roslin has never been technically elected to the office either time so after she serves the remainder of Baltar’s term, she could run for president again, get elected, and run again and be reelected. (Now it’s been several years since I’ve studied American government, but I think I’m remembering it correctly.) I wonder how long Colonial presidential terms are and for how many terms they can serve.

Obviously the show didn’t want to go through another election episode and this was their way of getting around that, but I think it might have been interesting to have had Zarek remain in power, at least for a couple of episodes or so. Using the excuse that the military would essentially refuse to cooperate with Zarek was kind of a cop-out. I know some people don’t care for the political aspect of this show, and I certainly don’t want every episode to be about political wrangling, but so far I’ve enjoyed all the political episodes. So I guess to strike a balance they just really didn’t want to have an in-depth episode focusing on how the government should proceed forward (keep Zarek, new elections, etc. etc.) and what choices would be best for the fleet. I can live with the decision but it kind of surprises me that Zarek would help in Roslin regaining power by skirting around having legitimate elections so the peoples’ voice could be heard. Another election would be a technicality because Roslin would more than likely be elected, but I bet the major issue would have been how to deal with those who collaborated. Roslin’s amnesty proposal may not have gone over so well since the majority of the population experienced the occupation first hand as opposed to those who remained on the ships.

I sincerely doubt that it'll be 'ok, they're pardoned now, it's all happy families'. there will be fallout from this for years and yearsAgreed. I can see the guy from SGA who lost his child maybe carrying out “justice” on a few more “collaborators” on his own.

daniel9

October 28th, 2006, 12:40 PM

At the ending scenes when Six was folding up Baltar's clothes - does that mean that she was showing love for him? or that she is preparing his clothes for his trial? It was stated that the Six's didn't know whether to keep him alive or not. Hmmmmmm, We'll see....

she could be preparing to toss them out the airlock since baltar might soon to be a goner

CaraRose

October 28th, 2006, 01:02 PM

I have a problem with Zarek being the one to agree so easily to the 6-man hit squads and then signing off on the death warrants. This is rather different from the man he started off as in “Bastille Day”. I know he started off as a “freedom fighter” to some, ”terrorist” to most others, but I’m not quite sure I see him agreeing to having these essentially death squads trying and executing “collaborators” without a fair hearing to include legal representation. These people are Colonial citizens and thus they fall under the protection of whatever Colonial document provides for their rights, etc. Zarek seems to have legitimately believed in democracy, even though he was power hungry as well when the fleet split into two in season two. I guess he truly thought it was for the best, but it rather goes against who he is, imo.

I’m not exactly sure if I like how Roslin regained the office of the president. It’s more like a dictatorship that is now backed by the military. The people really had no say in her “re-election.” I know the Quorum of 12 (which represents the people) vote for the vice president. So technically, yes they had a say through their representative, but did the Quorum know about the little deal between her and Zarek? I’m assuming Roslin will be serving out the remainder of Baltar/Zarek’s term. She can have her own little dictatorship in theory. If they loosely follow the U.S. Constitution and our rules for electing a president/presidential terms, then Roslin has never been technically elected to the office either time so after she serves the remainder of Baltar’s term, she could run for president again, get elected, and run again and be reelected. (Now it’s been several years since I’ve studied American government, but I think I’m remembering it correctly.) I wonder how long Colonial presidential terms are and for how many terms they can serve.

On Zarek-- he spent 4 months in detention, don't forget. We don't know what happened to him there. He stood up for his convictions that he had no intent of collaborating with the Cylons. He probably feels nothing but disgust for people who weren't willing to do the same.

On election terms-- remember that term limits for the president did not exist in the USA before FDR. There's no reason to really assume that the colonies have any term limits for their presidents.

I'm pretty sure the quorum were aware of what Zarek would do once he confirmed Laura as his VP. I'm betting they wanted Laura to be the president again as much as, well, pretty much everyone in the fleet.

Skydiver

October 28th, 2006, 01:30 PM

If Starbuck returns to active duty, with her still emotionally unbalanced self, she's going to get other Viper pilots killed.
i dunno. having a duty to do justmight ground her enough to help her deal with what happened.

she might need the familiarity of having an enemy that she can really fight instead of one that keeps coming back from the dead

LoneStar1836

October 28th, 2006, 01:34 PM

On Zarek-- he spent 4 months in detention, don't forget. We don't know what happened to him there. He stood up for his convictions that he had no intent of collaborating with the Cylons. He probably feels nothing but disgust for people who weren't willing to do the same. I know, but he spent how many years in prison for blowing up a government building on what Geminon, because he believed he was standing up for the oppressed. He came out of there affirmed in his beliefs in democracy. After 4 months in detention, I’m not sure I’m ready to believe that he would toss aside his democratic ideals.

On election terms-- remember that term limits for the president did not exist in the USA before FDR. There's no reason to really assume that the colonies have any term limits for their presidents.True, but the two term limit before that was a tradition set by Washington, and presidents until FDR carried on with that tradition until it was finally written in stone. So if there are no term limits, then she could in theory remain president until she dies. Now if democratically elected after each term expires, of course there is no problem with that unless somebody decides to change the law.

I'm pretty sure the quorum were aware of what Zarek would do once he confirmed Laura as his VP. I'm betting they wanted Laura to be the president again as much as, well, pretty much everyone in the fleet.
But we don’t know for sure that Zarek outright told them his intentions. Maybe, maybe not. We don’t know for sure that everyone wanted her back. We can assume that, but we don’t know for certain, and now she has been inserted back into power.

I’m not sure they can find a better person than Roslin to be president. During a time of war people generally stick to the president they know, like people did with FDR. But I still don’t quite agree with how she skirted around the election process and regained her power.

LightMeDark

October 28th, 2006, 01:51 PM

This was a pretty decent character-driven episode. I have a few random thoughts on it:

*The interior structure of the Basestar was certainly not what I was expecting...didn't seem to fit, to me.

*Cally forgetting that one of the NCP officers let her go was a bit of a stretch, but I guess I can understand forgetting things in a situation like that.

*I felt really jarred out of the episode when Anders showed skepticism and something like disgust in the circle. Last episode he would have killed Ellen if Saul hadn't. I can see some difference between the two situations and that the circle was more about revenge, but it still came off as out of character to me.

*BSG is always short for time as it is, but I'd have really liked to have seen Sharon or a mention of her.

*Jammer's scene was one of the most powerful of the series to me, mostly due to his acting in it. His screaming of "I'm sorry!" was really spot on for me.

*I'm greatly relieved that Gaeta made it out alive. I've always liked him, but his actions in this ep will propel him to "one of my favorites" status as long as he doesn't go back to being quite so background.

*The Kara/Anders breakup scene made sense, but I really didn't like that she kissed him as she did before turning her back and walking away. That's a really cruel thing to do to a guy (of course, she probably wanted to be evil).

*Adama clapping first at the end of Roslin's speech made sense, too, but it came across a bit cheesy to me. Also, it always seems like Bill's the first one to clap, haha ;D

Overall, just a few nitpicks for an overall good episode. I can't wait to see where the story takes us.

jmw326

October 28th, 2006, 01:58 PM

Definately not my favorite episode but not the worst one I have seen either. For me it just served the purpose of tying up some loose ends from the previous episodes so that it can move on to better stuff. Still by far one of the best shows on TV.

THSEX1138

October 28th, 2006, 02:27 PM

How brutal was that? I hated the scene when Kara broke up with her bf...that's upsetting, why did she kiss him though I wonder?

I'm glad someone else noticed that too. If you go back to season 2 and watch "Scar" she did the same thing to Lee. It's the "Kara Thrace Kiss of Death."

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e147/thsex1138/AvatarSTARBUCK.jpg

The only thing I hated about this episode was that I've been lead to believe that Base Stars were full of FLAMMABLE EXPLOSIVE MATERIALS and BUTT NAKKED CYLONS. When D'anna Biers came around the corner wearing a white dress it was a major dissapointment.

somedude

October 28th, 2006, 02:28 PM

How brutal was that? I hated the scene when Kara broke up with her bf...that's upsetting, why did she kiss him though I wonder?

I think you mean husband, not bf. :)

Which makes it even more brutal, that she would just break up with him so quickly after all they've been through.

Back40

October 28th, 2006, 02:54 PM

Tigh also needs to sort out his mental state. The scene where he puts Ellen's clothes into his locker was unsettling.

I agree he has some serious mental sorting out to do, not the least because whichever way you cut the cake, he took his own wife's life, but I didn't find him saving Ellen's clothes unsettling. I found it a hopeful reaction, given his current screwed-up state, that he would do something so normal. The urge to hang on to something tangible, like clothing that carries familiar textures and scents, is a very normal reaction following the death of someone you love.

Major Fischer

October 28th, 2006, 02:58 PM

(Now it’s been several years since I’ve studied American government, but I think I’m remembering it correctly.) I wonder how long Colonial presidential terms are and for how many terms they can serve.

The limit in the US is 10 years total. If you are a vice president and a president dies less than two years into his term, the remaining time in his term is considered your first term, and you can only run for re-election once. If the president dies two years and one day into his term, you serve out the rest of his, and than can run for re-election twice.

Unless i'm mistaken they haven't given us a length of Colonial presidential terms or if they are termlimited though.

I happen to agree with you, I don't think Roslin can be considered a democrat anymore. She is a military backed strongman who likes to think of herself as a democrat. Which is actually not unusal in female heads of state, it's happened several times in earth's history.

Back40

October 28th, 2006, 03:15 PM

i dunno. having a duty to do justmight ground her enough to help her deal with what happened.

she might need the familiarity of having an enemy that she can really fight instead of one that keeps coming back from the dead

I think returning to duty will mask the problem, for a time, but the wheels will sooner or later fall off the wagon (probably sooner, she wasn't all that stable emotionally or psychologically to start off with). She will have to be driven to seek help, she won't be able to do it on her own. I'm betting on Adama senior to do the driving, there's a deep need in her for his approval.....

Back40

October 28th, 2006, 03:20 PM

I’m not sure they can find a better person than Roslin to be president. During a time of war people generally stick to the president they know, like people did with FDR. But I still don’t quite agree with how she skirted around the election process and regained her power.

She didn't actually skirt around the election process, technically Adama did by making it clear to Zarek that he wouldn't have the backing of the military. Zarek took the most expedient way out, by resigning in exchange for a "consideration". Her offer of the vice presidency was generous, given their past history, although I'm afraid it's going to come back and bite her.....assuming that she goes through with it, of course. :)

Back40

October 28th, 2006, 03:25 PM

Which is actually not unusal in female heads of state, it's happened several times in earth's history.

Ouch, that smarts.... :)

DarkOne

October 28th, 2006, 03:26 PM

It probably comes under the old saying..."Keep your friends close and your enemies closer"!!;)

Back40

October 28th, 2006, 03:34 PM

It probably comes under the old saying..."Keep your friends close and your enemies closer"!!;)

I think you're right, I suspect that's the only reason she made the offer. Zarek's opposition to Baltar's collaboration with the Cylons and his time in detention will have served at least somewhat to redeem him in the eyes of the population (after his open campaigning to have Baltar elected). He is again a potentially dangerous force politically, and she will be wise to keep him where she can monitor his activities. Personally, I think he works as much for his own self-serving agenda as Baltar does, he's just a heck of a lot better at "spin"..... :D

Major Fischer

October 28th, 2006, 03:37 PM

Ouch, that smarts.... :)

The truth hurts. Women don't have a history of being anymore enlightened as rulers than men do. I still like Roslin though, so BSG just continues to have me routing for people who would scare the frak out of me in real life.

Back40

October 28th, 2006, 03:46 PM

Women don't have a history of being anymore enlightened as rulers than men do. I still like Roslin though, so BSG just continues to have me routing for people who would scare the frak out of me in real life.

Unfortunately, no. Women are just as liable to be corrupted by power, and IMHO may be even more susceptible to needing/using "might" to back up that power.

*waits for lightning to strike*

The Ori

October 28th, 2006, 03:53 PM

Yeh I like it how Admiral Adama takes the piss, but the best line was "Get your fat ass outa here". Amazing.

But yeh I'm loving BSG so far, here in the UK were just showing repeats of season 2 on Sky, but I gotta say season 3 is brilliant so far. This episode was excellant and I agree the dark side is being shown! Colonol Tigh is my favourite character of the show now, he's showing his true self, a no nonsence character and I agree he should become a General or summink.

But I can't believe they killed off Jammer, what was all that about!! He's been on the show for so long! It tells you that any character can be taken off the show except for the major ones obviously. But yeh I'm gald Gaeta was not taken off!! I'm not too sure I like where the Baltar story line is going though! It seems a bit too much!! But Lucy Lawless was looking hot in that white dress, buff-a-la-ding-dong.

All in all A good ep a a great season so far last weeks was brilliant, the graphics were amazing! I just hope Sci-Fi realize that fixing the Friday night line up when it wasn't broken was a mistake!!

Astrofighter

October 28th, 2006, 04:11 PM

All humans have the same capacity for every single emotion in every possible range, no matter their race or sex were all the same.

CaraRose

October 28th, 2006, 04:17 PM

I happen to agree with you, I don't think Roslin can be considered a democrat anymore. She is a military backed strongman who likes to think of herself as a democrat. Which is actually not unusal in female heads of state, it's happened several times in earth's history.

Can you really have a true democracy in a situation like this? You have a fragment of survivors of near genocide. If you allow true democracy, you have stupid decisions made like the one to settle on New Caprica.

They need the illusion of democracy to keep the population believing the still have that tie to what they were, that things haven't entirely changed and that they still have the control. But if the mob has control, stupid sh*t is going to happen.

The nice thing about Adama and Rosilin is that they are basically co-dictators here. They balance each other and together may actually make a decent person. Mascaline energy balanced by the feminine energy.

Heh, okay, perhaps I've been spending to much time working on my BSG Tarot now that I'm babbling about mascaline and feminine energy (but Adama still must be the emperor, and Laura the empress.... I'm thinking Lee as the Magician. Sharon and the High Priestess perhaps. Still can't think of a good one for the Fool. Galactica the chariot... hrm...)

Major Fischer

October 28th, 2006, 04:17 PM

IMHO may be even more susceptible to needing/using "might" to back up that power.

That's an opinion that has a certain amount of historical weight behind it.

Major Fischer

October 28th, 2006, 04:19 PM

Can you really have a true democracy in a situation like this?

I think that's one of the central questions of the show that has yet to be answered and that RDM wants the audience to have to think about.

Back40

October 28th, 2006, 04:35 PM

Can you really have a true democracy in a situation like this? You have a fragment of survivors of near genocide. If you allow true democracy, you have stupid decisions made like the one to settle on New Caprica.

They need the illusion of democracy to keep the population believing the still have that tie to what they were, that things haven't entirely changed and that they still have the control. But if the mob has control, stupid sh*t is going to happen.

Yes, you can have a true democracy in this situation, and their Articles of Colonization entitle them to it. This doesn't mean that they won't make stupid decisions, democracies do that all the time - but under the rules of democracy, we're entitled to the right to make those decisions, stupid or otherwise.

The temptation here is to justify NOT having a true democracy for just the reasons you've stated - that there is a limited population, and for the sake of the survival of humanity, the population must be protected from it's own stupidity. In this particular situation, it would be done with the best of intentions (on Roslin's part, at least). But "the road to hell is paved with good intentions", as the saying goes.

Should be interesting to see if Adama curbs her totalitarianistic tendencies this time, or whether he lets her "steal the election", as it were...

Major Fischer

October 28th, 2006, 04:40 PM

Should be interesting to see if Adama curbs her totalitarianistic tendencies this time, or whether he lets her "steal the election", as it were...

I doubt he will, he's essentially installed her in power this time.

Back40

October 28th, 2006, 04:42 PM

I doubt he will, he's essentially installed her in power this time.

So much for balance...

grover

October 28th, 2006, 05:18 PM

Best part of the episode...

Lee: "Gotta go hit the jumprope"

Admiral Adama: "Keep Jumping"

I LOVE how his father keeps goofing on him!!! He's so pathetic even his father can't help making fun of him!!

Hey Titans!

Did you like how your boy Anders wimped out of his responsibility to the Council? He didn't think Gaeta was guilty but instead of voting to defend Felix he turned tail and walked away!

;)

grover

October 28th, 2006, 05:21 PM

He's not nuts..he's Hardcore. When your that incredibly Hardcore mere mortals can't comprehend that level of Hardcoreness and it is perceived as insanity by us simple humans.

Here's the question...

Who's more Hardcore right now, the Admiral or Tigh?

I think the Universe might explode if these two ever go at it.

grover

October 28th, 2006, 05:29 PM

Back40

October 28th, 2006, 05:41 PM

Weak episode.

Maybe that sounds harsh, but they lost me before the opening credits. I had no problem with Jammer getting expressed out the jump tube, but the charges they nailed him on were totally frakked. I watched the webisodes like most of the folks around here and Jammer didn't join the NCP until AFTER the massacre at the Temple. So either there was a SECOND massacre at the Temple (highly unlikely) or there was a second Temple where a never before referenced massacre occured (seems a stretch) OR they totally blew all continuity from the webisodes to now by executing Jammer for a crime he could not have committed.

1) There was at least a second temple massacre AFTER Jammer had joined the NCP. Jammer gave the details which clearly distinguished this massacre as being a different one from the first shown in the webisode when questioned before his "execution".

2) Shouldn't be a surprise there's more than one temple when there are 12 gods in the pantheon and a population of some 39,000 people on NC. Shouldn't be surprising that they would raid EVERY temple after finding a weapons stash in the first temple raided....kind of logical, don't you think? :)

3) He clearly admitted to the "crime" they executed him for.

grover

October 28th, 2006, 06:52 PM

1) There was at least a second temple massacre AFTER Jammer had joined the NCP. Jammer gave the details which clearly distinguished this massacre as being a different one from the first shown in the webisode when questioned before his "execution".

2) Shouldn't be a surprise there's more than one temple when there are 12 gods in the pantheon and a population of some 39,000 people on NC. Shouldn't be surprising that they would raid EVERY temple after finding a weapons stash in the first temple raided....kind of logical, don't you think? :)

3) He clearly admitted to the "crime" they executed him for.

I'm sorry, I wasn't very clear re: #2. I'm sure there were multiple Temples in New Caprica, that wasn't the "stretch" I was referring to. I thought it was a stretch to think that there was a 2nd massacre at a different Temple.

See, the timeline has been shot to Hell. The Temple massacre was such a key part of the Webisodes that it influenced events all the way through to the season premier. It's part of the reason Jammer joined the NCP and it gave reason for Duck to go suicide bombing. Remember, Jammer was part of the first NCP class along with Duck. Duck went BOOM, Jammer survived and was part of the first "round-up" that netted Callie.

From that point on, events seemed to happen fairly quick. This 2nd "massacre" would have had to happen sometime between Callie getting captured and the truck drive to executionville that the Chief thwarted. Because after that rescue we go straight to Galactica coming back to save humanity. So how could such an important event like this 2nd massacre not be shown or even mentioned during the first four episodes?

It's as if the webisodes didn't happen.

Jammer's confession at the end doesn't mean anything. It was the writers' way of proving the backstory as true and freeing the audience from wondering if the Circle's actions were correct. It "proved" that Jammer was a guilty man.

Unfortanelty the whoole set-up flies in the face of what we saw happen in the webisodes. That's why I said the continuity had been blown to Hell and gone. What we saw in the webisodes had just been invalidated by Jammer's trial and execution.

Back40

October 28th, 2006, 07:21 PM

From that point on, events seemed to happen fairly quick. This 2nd "massacre" would have had to happen sometime between Callie getting captured and the truck drive to executionville that the Chief thwarted. Because after that rescue we go straight to Galactica coming back to save humanity. So how could such an important event like this 2nd massacre not be shown or even mentioned during the first four episodes?

It's as if the webisodes didn't happen.

Ah, see, that's where our impressions differ - I didn't get the impression that the round-up happened right on the heels of Duck's suicide bombing at all, but after there had been more than one such incident. My feeling was that there was a period of time elapsed between Duck "going BOOM" as you say, and the Cylon's decision to round up the key members of the insurgency. Lots of time for other temple raids and suicide bombings and background stuff to happen. And I'm not surprised they wouldn't show this second massacre in an episode if there was no key character we would recognize (like Duck's wife was in the webisode version). TPTB aren't given to showing repeated events - settle for showing one instance, then informing us of the other occurrences unless it is critical to the plot.

daniel9

October 28th, 2006, 09:01 PM

True, but the two term limit before that was a tradition set by Washington, and presidents until FDR carried on with that tradition until it was finally written in stone. So if there are no term limits, then she could in theory remain president until she dies. Now if democratically elected after each term expires, of course there is no problem with that unless somebody decides to change the law.

well there also was something in the us constitution i dont remember where that says that a president or its administration cant change during a time of war despite anykind of term limits

jdog

October 28th, 2006, 09:44 PM

Zamboni

October 28th, 2006, 10:44 PM

This episode is awesome! These episodes are part of what I like about this show: even though it has kick ass CG and action it doesn't use them as excuses to skip character development or plot.

Lucy Lawless looks absolutely incredible in that dress... Was it just me or is #3 (Lawless's character) kinda have something going on with Baltar? The whole Caprica Six / Baltar deal seems to hint at something between NC3 (new caprica #3) and Gaius. Besides, the prophet told her that she'd find "true love" when Hera was discovered. And we know "true love" means cylon hybrid baby...

So is Hera getting a little brother or sister sometime soon? Is Baltar going to father an entire generation of hybrids with every Cylon model? Err I mean female models... Unless Cylons have some sort of dual processor thing...

Descent

October 28th, 2006, 11:33 PM

This was a (nessacery) filler episode but it was very good nonetheless. :) Too bad Jammer still died but really, I didn't think him saving Cally would let him off the hook. Soooo glad Gaeta didn't die as well. Looks like things are also spiraling downward for Anders and Starbuck. Loved Adama being the first one to clap as well and I also liked seeing Baltar now with the Cylons. "I should've started with that", Baltar's still looking out for number one right till the bitter end.

Favorite Line: "Keep jumping." :p

Personally, I am loving every bit of this Season so far. :cool:

Rating: ***1/2

Scyld

October 28th, 2006, 11:44 PM

All humans have the same capacity for every single emotion in every possible range, no matter their race or sex were all the same.

Unless they have an emotional disorder.

Back40

October 29th, 2006, 12:32 AM

I think the point was Jammer was proved guilty before he entered the room. It didn't matter what he said.

I'm not sure I would agree that he was "proved" guilty, but I'd certainly agree that he'd been "judged" guilty, and therefore it didn't matter what he said.

Back40

October 29th, 2006, 12:36 AM

Err I mean female models... Unless Cylons have some sort of dual processor thing...

ROFLMAO....oh, that's priceless....."some sort of dual processor thing"....

*laughing hysterically*

anotherquestion

October 29th, 2006, 12:52 AM

Can you really have a true democracy in a situation like this? You have a fragment of survivors of near genocide. If you allow true democracy, you have stupid decisions made like the one to settle on New Caprica.

...

The nice thing about Adama and Rosilin is that they are basically co-dictators here. They balance each other and together may actually make a decent person. Mascaline energy balanced by the feminine energy.

Yes, the Tigh-clops really stepped over the line in this episode, jumped way past the red-line. The circle was no more or less than a para-military death squad.

Tigh took an unnatural relish in polishing off the collaborators, I think that's all he has now to keep him going. After all, he killed the one person responsible for his survival on New Caprica. Ellen may have betrayed the rest of the colonials but she, doubtlessly, sacrificed much to save Saul's life. I really thought it was possible that Tigh would have found a way to spare her life, that the Hemlock (or equivalent) was meant for himself, not her.

What does he have to live for now, anyway? He seems to be washing away his own guilt in the blood of others. He sees no accountability for himself for the slaughter in the temple, for example, a carnage that would not have taken place had he not callously hidden arms there.

He countenanced the suicide bombing, using a calculus I still cannot fathom. After all the toasters resurrect and the bombers are definitely dead. Where are the winning odds in that equation ?

Adama used to be able to reign in the Tigh-clops greater excesses in the past, but his hold on him is clearly slipping. Tigh almost killed Gaeta, who was, in fact, a hero, for risking his life to pass along the vital information and frequencies that allowed the coordinated plan for the resuce of the Colonials. Tigh needs to be washed-out, once and for all, as unfit for command before he finds still another way to dwindle down the remnant of the Colonials.

Zarek's reasoning about keeping the new President's hands clean was specious and self-serving, particularly since he waited to reveal the nature of his secret directive until he had cemented a place for himself in the new administration.

Blue Banrigh

October 29th, 2006, 03:06 AM

Back40

October 29th, 2006, 04:07 AM

It's interesting that choose airlocking as a form of execution. How quick and painless is it? Would it have been more humane to shoot them in the head?

It would be relatively quick, but definitely not painless. Shooting would be more humane, if you pick the right spot.

EDIT: But then you would have to do it "hands on". Airlocking has the advantage of not requiring the executioners to get their hands dirty, so to speak.....

Thermonuclearboy

October 29th, 2006, 05:32 AM

Back40

October 29th, 2006, 05:35 AM

And if you're shooting someone, you risk someone hearing it or shooting a hole in the deck. Can't have that; justice needs to be carried out in secret, you know.

Who was the redhead member of the Circle? We had Seelix, Tigh, Tyrol, Anders, some guy named Connor, and a redheaded woman. Have we seen her before somewhere?

Yes, she came with Anders - original member of the resistance on Caprica.

EDIT: Name is Jean, I think??

aaobuttons

October 29th, 2006, 05:41 AM

According to IMDB her characters name is Jean Barolay. She's been something akin to Ander's second in command since season 2 if I recall correctly. I also remember some dirty looks at Kara too, so she probably had feelings for Anders.

rarocks24

October 29th, 2006, 05:53 AM

I thought Connor was the most interesting character. He sure is racking up the credits however. I hope to see more of him, when he isn't playing Laden.

I felt sorry for Tigh, yet couldn't help to hate him for what he did. He ejected Jammer out of the airlock despite the fact that the man admitted regret. God forbid the Resistance didn't kill any people (they were partially responsible for as many deaths as the New Caprica Police were). The fact that he's gone completely loco is not surprising given his countless hours of torture and imprisonment, and the grief and betrayal of his wife. If I was Adama, I'd be right pissed that people on my ship were throwing other people out the airlock, to be damned with executive order.

Back40

October 29th, 2006, 06:01 AM

I thought Connor was the most interesting character. He sure is racking up the credits however. I hope to see more of him, when he isn't playing Laden.

Yes, he's been a busy boy, hasn't he? Just a point of interest, the actor playing Charlie also played the Armistice Officer (the dude on the remote outpost with Six's tongue down his throat) in the miniseries....

Skydiver

October 29th, 2006, 07:34 AM

It would be relatively quick, but definitely not painless. Shooting would be more humane, if you pick the right spot.

EDIT: But then you would have to do it "hands on". Airlocking has the advantage of not requiring the executioners to get their hands dirty, so to speak.....
you still have to dispose of the body. and you run the risk of someone hearing the shot and becoming an inadvertant witness.

spacing both kills and disposes of the body

the one plot hole...no one in CIC noticed the viper tube doors being opened? i would kinda think there'd be a record of that and safeguards against it

also, we don't know if htey were all spaced. it's unlikely that all 13 victims were on the same ship so it was 13 murders orchestrated all over the fleet.

course, that means that people communicated to each other via radio, thus increasing the chance of being over heard. or they traveled amongst the fleet, which also leaves a record

little plot hole. maybe it's addressed in the podcast

aaobuttons

October 29th, 2006, 07:44 AM

Lee told Adama that 2 had gone missing from Galactica and the other 11 were scattered across the fleet.

Zamboni

October 29th, 2006, 08:34 AM

Back40

October 29th, 2006, 08:41 AM

the one plot hole...no one in CIC noticed the viper tube doors being opened? i would kinda think there'd be a record of that and safeguards against it

Maybe it doesn't show up on CIC monitors, although you'd think it would. When I saw the scene, I immediately thought that the officer of the watch in CIC was complicite with what was happening, as well as whoever was supposed to be on watch on the flight deck...

GateShip One

October 29th, 2006, 08:55 AM

Back40

October 29th, 2006, 09:03 AM

I imagine there'd be Viper launch tubes on both sides of the ship. Perhaps they were using the ones on the other side of Galactica, near where the museum was built. Perhaps those unused tubes wouldn't be monitored.

Actually, no, at least not Jammer. External shot clearly shows him going out the port side.

LoneStar1836

October 29th, 2006, 09:10 AM

She didn't actually skirt around the election process, technically Adama did by making it clear to Zarek that he wouldn't have the backing of the military.Both Adama and Roslin did. Each scratching the other’s back. Adama was never too concerned with upholding the democratic ideals of the Colonies, especially right after the attacks in the mini and on through season one.

Zarek took the most expedient way out, by resigning in exchange for a "consideration". Her offer of the vice presidency was generous, given their past history, although I'm afraid it's going to come back and bite her.....assuming that she goes through with it, of course. :)Well the Quorum votes on the VP so even if she doesn’t nominate Zarek, someone else could, but I think they are going to go through with having Zarek as VP somehow to make for an interesting story.

The limit in the US is 10 years total. If you are a vice president and a president dies less than two years into his term, the remaining time in his term is considered your first term, and you can only run for re-election once. If the president dies two years and one day into his term, you serve out the rest of his, and than can run for re-election twice.Thanks for clearing that up. :) I was thinking there might be more to it and should have gone on and looked it up to make sure.

Unless i'm mistaken they haven't given us a length of Colonial presidential terms or if they are termlimited though.I don’t think they have either, but it’d be nice if they’d eventually tell us.

Can you really have a true democracy in a situation like this?
I think that's one of the central questions of the show that has yet to be answered and that RDM wants the audience to have to think about.Agreed. I’ve thought about it several times, mostly during the first season and especially when Roslin used Starbuck against Adama to steal the Raider to retrieve the arrow resulting in Roslin getting tossed in the brig and the eventual split in the fleet. I sided with Adama and the military. Plus after the fleet split, I would have rather lived under military rule and protection than be ruled by democratic values and no military protection.

well there also was something in the us constitution i dont remember where that says that a president or its administration cant change during a time of war despite anykind of term limitsPretty sure I’ve never heard that one before. The U.S. has had several elections during war time. People just tend to stick to the leader they know than the one they don’t.

Back40

October 29th, 2006, 09:34 AM

Both Adama and Roslin did. Each scratching the other’s back. Adama was never too concerned with upholding the democratic ideals of the Colonies, especially right after the attacks in the mini and on through season one.

That's why I said "technically" - I don't think anyone has any doubt that Roslin was complicite in Adama's actions. :)

And on the democracy front, I still think you can have a true democracy in the situation they're in, the question becomes is it in the best interest of the remainder of humanity (because democracies are unfortunately not immune to making stupid decisions), and who has the right to decide what is in humanity's best interest. It's a hell of a choice....

Skydiver

October 29th, 2006, 09:38 AM

Maybe it doesn't show up on CIC monitors, although you'd think it would. When I saw the scene, I immediately thought that the officer of the watch in CIC was complicite with what was happening, as well as whoever was supposed to be on watch on the flight deck...
i guess my point was, there were 13 murders. 2 on galactica, 11 elsewhere. there has to be a paper trail. communiations, travels, orders.

either the circle traveled about and committed every one of those murders on thier own, or there are circle members on other ships that are complicit in the murders.

my point is, it's not a secret. too many people know and too many could notice. whether or not this comes back to haunt adama and roslyn, time will tell, but theoretically it could.

evidence is out there, if someone just looks for it...thus everone that was hunting the collaborators...were collaborators themselves. they collaborated in the murder of 13 people they believed to be the enemy, often with no proof beyond rumors and stories

Kinda like the cylons did when they rounded people up back on new caprica

Back40

October 29th, 2006, 09:48 AM

Major Fischer

October 29th, 2006, 10:29 AM

well there also was something in the us constitution i dont remember where that says that a president or its administration cant change during a time of war despite anykind of term limits

There is no such thing. We have elections in the middle of wars. We had an election in the middle of a civil war even, which is something that is quite rare.

Descent

October 29th, 2006, 10:36 AM

the one plot hole...no one in CIC noticed the viper tube doors being opened? i would kinda think there'd be a record of that and safeguards against it

Galactica's still heavily damaged. Also, they had the Chief with them so he probably knew the way around such things.

Skydiver

October 29th, 2006, 11:05 AM

Oh I think you're right on that, definitely. There were certainly people outside "The Circle" that were involved. And they did mention in the epi about contacting someone on another ship about an execution they needed done.

EDIT: Probably doesn't hurt to remember that 95% of the people in the fleet were down on NC, so there's likely to be a lot of sympathy, if not outright support, for what "The Circle" was doing
i'm sure some do.

of course, if Jammer's mother is in the people, she's likely to have a different point of view. And so would the family members of any of the 13 victims.

i can understand zarek was doing. there's a need for justice meshed with revenge and who knows how many cylons they could have evacuated with them, so there's that fear as well

but his little circle was ultimately only going to tear the refugees apart. peopel will start to fear being named and will name others and it coudl go to the point of being mob rule or a near civil war as the refugees turn on each other out of fear.

In one way, i can see what he wanted to do. round ou the 'baddies' and isolate them from the 'good' survivors. But how the circle was doing it was wrong. People were convicted and executed on pretty much circumstantial evidence

In him doing what he did, he removed the possibility of there ever being a real justice. roslyn made the only choice she could make under the circumstances and it'll be interesting to see how it plays out and if it comes back to haunt either of them

Back40

October 29th, 2006, 11:18 AM

It probably will....RDM's not gonna pass up an opportunity this juicy, is he.....:D

foxhound22

October 29th, 2006, 11:26 AM

foxhound22

October 29th, 2006, 11:27 AM

There is no such thing. We have elections in the middle of wars. We had an election in the middle of a civil war even, which is something that is quite rare.

I think you may be thinking about the suspension of Habeas Corpus. Which President Lincoln did during the Civil War and which the Supreme Court found unconstitutional.

Trek_Girl42

October 29th, 2006, 11:56 AM

i guess my point was, there were 13 murders. 2 on galactica, 11 elsewhere. there has to be a paper trail. communiations, travels, orders.

either the circle traveled about and committed every one of those murders on thier own, or there are circle members on other ships that are complicit in the murders.

my point is, it's not a secret. too many people know and too many could notice. whether or not this comes back to haunt adama and roslyn, time will tell, but theoretically it could.

evidence is out there, if someone just looks for it...thus everone that was hunting the collaborators...were collaborators themselves. they collaborated in the murder of 13 people they believed to be the enemy, often with no proof beyond rumors and stories

Kinda like the cylons did when they rounded people up back on new caprica
I don't think it's a huge stretch of the imagination to think that no one noticed a paper trail. It had only been three days since the fleet got back together, meaning everything is still in chaos, people are still trying to sort out living space on ships, raptors are probably making multiple trips ferrying civilians off of Galactica, and other Galactica crew members back to Galactica from whatever ships they may have ended up on during the exodus, not to mention all of the supply runs and inventory jobs that must be going on between the ships behind the scenes. They're probably not even filling out paper work for all this stuff, just the sheer number of calls that have to be made between the ships over this time period is huge. There will be a lot of people cutting corners to get through it all as quickly as possible so that they can settle down. Makes for the ideal oppertunity for illigal/questionable activity (like The Circle), and if I had a cylon sleeper agent in the fleet, this is when I'd get that agent into position for whatever their op is, long or short term. ;)

Major Fischer

October 29th, 2006, 12:31 PM

I think you may be thinking about the suspension of Habeas Corpus. Which President Lincoln did during the Civil War and which the Supreme Court found unconstitutional.

No, I mean elections. The earlier poster was talking about how presidential administrations can't change during war. And they can. There was an election during 1864 between Abraham Lincoln and George McCellen. In the US democracy goes on despite wars.

foxhound22

October 29th, 2006, 12:49 PM

No, I mean elections. The earlier poster was talking about how presidential administrations can't change during war. And they can. There was an election during 1864 between Abraham Lincoln and George McCellen. In the US democracy goes on despite wars.

You are correct. I thought the earlier poster was confusing the two concepts.

THSEX1138

October 29th, 2006, 01:43 PM

the one plot hole...no one in CIC noticed the viper tube doors being opened? i would kinda think there'd be a record of that and safeguards against it

PLOT HOLE #2 What happenned to all the Vipers? Lee left the Vipers guarding the civilian fleet when he rescued the Galactica so the hanger bays should have been maxed out. They were empty for several scenes throughout the episode. Where did they go?

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e147/thsex1138/THSEX1138EIGHT.jpg

Skydiver

October 29th, 2006, 01:47 PM

Back40

October 29th, 2006, 01:49 PM

PLOT HOLE #2 What happenned to all the Vipers? Lee left the Vipers guarding the civilian fleet when he rescued the Galactica so the hanger bays should have been maxed out. They were empty for several scenes throughout the episode. Where did they go?

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e147/thsex1138/THSEX1138EIGHT.jpg

Still parked on the ships where he left them when he went to go rescue Galactica would be my guess. It's only been one or two days, they may not have had time to relocate them, although a better guess might be that Galactica can't accomodate them until the starboard flight deck is up and running. I think the scenes we are seeing are of the starboard flight deck (makes sense to hold their "trials" where they won't be disturbed), but it looks as though the executions take place out of the port launch tubes, leading me to suspect that the starboard launch tubes aren't functional.

Back40

October 29th, 2006, 01:54 PM

it takes you about 4-5 minutes to die when you're spaced. takes your brain that long to die from lack of O2

even as cold as it is, i don't think you freeze that fast

you'll be conscious - at least for a bit - trying to breathe but there's nothing there

hanging can be much faster if the place the knot right and your neck breaks at c1 or c2

Actually, you'd go quite a bit quicker than that - it's not lack of oxygen or the cold that kills you, it's the depressurization. Relatively quick, although not instantaneous, very painful.....

ShadowMaat

October 29th, 2006, 02:51 PM

thsex, is there a reason you keep posting unrelated sig-type images in all of your posts? I have sigs turned off for a reason and you already HAVE a banner sig in your real sig, so why add a second one? :mad:

Oh, and on topic- depressurization sounds like a very nasty way to go. Poor Jammer. :(

THSEX1138

October 29th, 2006, 03:10 PM

Yep! The reason I do this is because there is an option that allows anyone on this forum who post a reply or message to insert images along with the message they post. Many posters enjoy these and I appreciate all the compliments I've received. Since you are not a Moderator I suggest you file a complaint with a Moderator and recommend the insert image option be removed! If your sigs are turned off how could you know I have one?

foxhound22

October 29th, 2006, 03:46 PM

it takes you about 4-5 minutes to die when you're spaced. takes your brain that long to die from lack of O2

even as cold as it is, i don't think you freeze that fast

you'll be conscious - at least for a bit - trying to breathe but there's nothing there

hanging can be much faster if the place the knot right and your neck breaks at c1 or c2

But with the pressure difference wouldn't you either implode or explode first?

Back40

October 29th, 2006, 03:55 PM

But with the pressure difference wouldn't you either implode or explode first?

Yes. Refer to post #156, this thread.

EDIT: My thanks to SkyDiver, I didn't read the question carefully. The body doesn't explode per say (other than the eyes because they're fluid-filled), but blood cells will as they are fragile. Hence the capillaries bursting.

grover

October 29th, 2006, 04:37 PM

Ah, see, that's where our impressions differ - I didn't get the impression that the round-up happened right on the heels of Duck's suicide bombing at all, but after there had been more than one such incident. My feeling was that there was a period of time elapsed between Duck "going BOOM" as you say, and the Cylon's decision to round up the key members of the insurgency. Lots of time for other temple raids and suicide bombings and background stuff to happen. And I'm not surprised they wouldn't show this second massacre in an episode if there was no key character we would recognize (like Duck's wife was in the webisode version). TPTB aren't given to showing repeated events - settle for showing one instance, then informing us of the other occurrences unless it is critical to the plot.

I just watched the season premier again, up to the point where Callie gets nabbed, and I didn't get that impression at all. Logically, it wouldn't make sense for the Cylons to wait any period of time before rounding up insurgents after the bombing. That's an act that calls for immediate retaliation. Furthermore, when Baltar confronts Laura in the prison cell, she mentions torture and round ups and people being detained... don't you think if she had a second Temple massacre to point out that that might be her opening volley?

There was simply no time for Jammer to be responsible for any incident other than what we saw in the first four episodes and I seriously doubt he went back to the NCP after the botched massacre in the hills.

I'm sorry, but the writing staff blew it when they came up with this Temple massacre to hang on his head. That lack of continuity from the websiodes ruined this episode for me.

Skydiver

October 29th, 2006, 04:38 PM

But with the pressure difference wouldn't you either implode or explode first?
the body doesn't explode. capillaries and such towards the surface of the skin do, but the body itself doesn't.

teh body will basically be freeze dried and mummified because of it and, theoretically, be preserved forever although i'm sure over the years it'll just fall apart as it kinda freezer burns to pieces

Descent

October 29th, 2006, 04:47 PM

But with the pressure difference wouldn't you either implode or explode first?

That's a common misconception that's unfortunately spread by Hollywood amongst other things. :mckay:

Back40

October 29th, 2006, 05:02 PM

Furthermore, when Baltar confronts Laura in the prison cell, she mentions torture and round ups and people being detained... don't you think if she had a second Temple massacre to point out that that might be her opening volley?

Perhaps....but unless I've forgotten, she didn't mention the first massacre either. :)

Xenocide

October 29th, 2006, 05:04 PM

That's a common misconception that's unfortunately spread by Hollywood amongst other things. :mckay:

And of course you know how unprotected bodies react in space, because it happens all the time ;)

SoulReaver

October 29th, 2006, 05:17 PM

did Jake survive the exodus? :o

ShadowMaat

October 29th, 2006, 05:48 PM

did Jake survive the exodus? :o

He'd better have, dammit! :mad: :P

Descent

October 29th, 2006, 05:51 PM

And of course you know how unprotected bodies react in space, because it happens all the time ;)

Of course. ;) ....:eek:!?

ShadowMaat

October 29th, 2006, 05:58 PM

I just read a book recently where a character had to go outside the ship without benefit of a space suit. He had some kind of pressure-suity thing instead so he wasn't ENTIRELY unprotected, but it was a lot less than one usually wears for a spacewalk. He sweated horribly and looked like a walking bruise afterwards, but he was basically okay.

Zamboni

October 29th, 2006, 06:53 PM

PLOT HOLE #2 What happenned to all the Vipers? Lee left the Vipers guarding the civilian fleet when he rescued the Galactica so the hanger bays should have been maxed out. They were empty for several scenes throughout the episode. Where did they go?

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e147/thsex1138/THSEX1138EIGHT.jpg
Vipers do not park in launch tubes. Launch tubes are for combat ready vipers about to be lauched. All crafts (save for the alert fighters) are parked on the service deck (not the landing deck / runway either) during off hours. This deck is shown in several episodes. For example the episode when a misfired drone killed several pilots, and it was also shown in the episode where Chief Tyrol discovered the tempered bullet rounds. It's basically the body shop / garage on board Galactica. I imagine it right next to the machine shops.

hoof

October 29th, 2006, 07:22 PM

Since people have brought it up, here's what NASA has to say about the human body exposed to the vacuum of space:

http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/ask_astro/answers/970603.html

Another BSG example was when Commander Garner sacrificed himself in The Captains Hand. He dies when all the air in the chamber he wass in is lost. He did not explode nor exhibit any of the Hollywood myths of vacuum exposure. His lips turned blue, and the moisture leaving his lungs condensed, but otherwise he pretty much passed out due to lack of oxygen and died. Assumming Jammer didn't hold his breath, the same thing would pretty much have happened to him.

Wyrminarrd

October 30th, 2006, 01:44 AM

Good episode even though it´s fairly forgetable ( I guess they blew the budget on exudus II).

I´m betting that Balthar would wish he had hid aboard some ship when the humans escaped, if he had then Roslyns blanked pardon would have included him. At least I´m assuming that since Roslyn said "Every human in the fleet" or something like it does not extend to Balthar as he is currently not in the fleet.

I also hope that Lee keeps on jumping, that fat suit is really getting old.

Othere

October 30th, 2006, 03:50 AM

I think the point was Jammer was proved guilty before he entered the room. It didn't matter what he said.

Gaeta would not have made it if it weren't for Kara who i didn't think could go through with it so easily. Both her, chief and Anders are tired of war. Tigh's the problem. He feels if wife had to die others had too. he's a loose cannon.

Exactly - how could he stand as judge, jury and executioner to 15 collaborators (the ones they did execute) if he allowed his own wife, who betrayed an important mission to the cylons even if it was because she loved him, to live.

SoulReaver

October 30th, 2006, 04:50 AM

Unless Cylons have some sort of dual processor thing...I dunno, but it'd be interesting to see a female cylon resurrect into a male model/vice-versa http://img.presence-pc.com/forum/images/perso/gneu.gif

SoulReaver

October 30th, 2006, 05:05 AM

He'd better have, dammit! :mad: :Phope so :(

come to think of it he was quite friendly with the cylon humans too
won't be surprised if the Evil Eye accuses him of collaborating :(

voigtstr

October 30th, 2006, 05:14 AM

Wyrminarrd

October 30th, 2006, 05:23 AM

EDIT: I´m pretty sure I was quoting someone, don´t know why the quote didn´t appear :( The post simply stated that there only seemed to be 7 models of Cylons when there are supposed to be 12.

Perhaps these seven were the once who wanted to go to war with humans and the other five stayed at home? Or maybe those five have their own fleet and we will see them later?

SoulReaver

October 30th, 2006, 05:33 AM

EDIT: I´m pretty sure I was quoting someone, don´t know why the quote didn´t appear :( The post simply stated that there only seemed to be 7 models of Cylons when there are supposed to be 12.yeah that wuz my post - I deleted it as there was already an entire thread (http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=37047) on that question :o

REALSOULJA SA

October 30th, 2006, 06:31 AM

I agree with president Roslin's general amnesty- that has worked in south africa to restore the wounds of apartheid.

Well As a South African I wish they could have come up with somethin more original sounding tho. At least with BSG the tax payers arent gonna foot the bill for the TRC & the gravy train that it pulled. lol

I hope they not gonna concentrate to much on it & get back to the action. Whats the chances of finding our fav EXo a love interest & or a fake eye, or at the very least a proper eye patch.

Great episode.

Re Getting back to that jump rope ...

Edward James Olmos is brilliant in this role, even when he doesnt say much he says a lot.

Skydiver

October 30th, 2006, 07:36 AM

so it is very possible that one temple massacre led to another. ie once teh cylons found out they were hiding weapons in the temple, they raided all of them

still doesn't account for jammer's impetus for joining being the temple massacre if he was also a participant in the same massacre

the only way for this to work is if there had been more or it's a blooper. a continuity flub where the writers lost track of their timeline

Trek_Girl42

October 30th, 2006, 08:46 AM

Completly agree about the points made that the first temple massacre would have led to others- the cylons aren't stupid. If you find that weapons are being stockpiled in one temple, the logical route to take from there is to search them all, because there's a good chance that another temple was used for the same purpose. :)

In fact, if were a cylon, I would have had the NCP conduct regular searches of all the temples.

SoulReaver

October 30th, 2006, 08:51 AM

Trek_Girl42

October 30th, 2006, 08:58 AM

yeah but still, the cylons did't have the right to open fire - their binary code of honor forbids them to fight on hallowed ground
Opening fire on the people isn't really the point, what I'm saying is that it would be a major frak-up on their part to not search temples on a regular basis.

Skydiver

October 30th, 2006, 09:22 AM

it was a betrayal of trust.

the cylons had respected the temples and left them untouched. the humans took advantage of it, the cylons reacted.

i'm not faulting what the humans did, you do what you must to survive, yet, at its root, the temple massacre is their fault. they knew the cylons would react so they hid the weapons in a place frequented by non-combatants.

there was bound to be collateral damage.

IMHO, the resisitence was too open with what theydid, how they talked, all that. they were begging to be overheard, especially when i'm sure there are undiscovered skin jobs out there, not to mention collaborators that could have been playing both sides

the wider the circle, the greater the chance for discovery

Carewolf

October 30th, 2006, 11:27 AM

Othere

October 30th, 2006, 11:52 AM

It's interesting that choose airlocking as a form of execution. How quick and painless is it? Would it have been more humane to shoot them in the head?

Count me in as another person whose esteem of Gaeta rose with this episode. I liked that he didn't beg. Felt for Jammer as he died, poor man.

I somehow dont think that when they came up with methods of execution that humane was on their to-do list.
The airlock makes sense:
a) it's a reoccuring theme throughout the series - bad guys get spaced.
b) shooting them would waste valuable resources that could be better spent on Cylons
c) Then there is the mess - there are only so many announcements for clean up on Aisle 9 they could make before some one got suspicious

Airlocking them was the only way that they could get rid of the collaborators without raising too much suspicion. No mess, no fuss and with someone like the XO and the chief on the Circle, no one is going to stick around when ordered off the deck.

SoulReaver

October 30th, 2006, 11:59 AM

Count me in as another person whose esteem of Gaeta rose with this episode. I liked that he didn't beg. Felt for Jammer as he died, poor man.yup, Gaeta r0xd big time :cool:

I didn't care much about Jammer though (not that I really wanted him offed or anything)

I'm surprised Gaeta didn't mention the dog bowl & his disclosing secret info on his own though (when he was about to be executed)
he spoke about it but not until Kara asked him to - it wuz almost like he didn't care much about saving his own life :tealcanime49:

Othere

October 30th, 2006, 11:59 AM

you still have to dispose of the body. and you run the risk of someone hearing the shot and becoming an inadvertant witness.

spacing both kills and disposes of the body

the one plot hole...no one in CIC noticed the viper tube doors being opened? i would kinda think there'd be a record of that and safeguards against it

also, we don't know if htey were all spaced. it's unlikely that all 13 victims were on the same ship so it was 13 murders orchestrated all over the fleet.

course, that means that people communicated to each other via radio, thus increasing the chance of being over heard. or they traveled amongst the fleet, which also leaves a record

little plot hole. maybe it's addressed in the podcast

Thank you - that was my one quibble. I guess the only way around that was that the Galactica had taken quite a lot of damage and someone in the circle, say the chief or the XO could claim that it was a faulty connection or light etc, thus fobbing it off.
I get the impression that a lot of the NCP were ex-miltary types, which would make it easy for the Circle to get hold of them.

Othere

October 30th, 2006, 12:02 PM

yup, Gaeta r0xd big time :cool:

I didn't care much about Jammer though (not that I really wanted him offed or anything)

I'm surprised Gaeta didn't mention the dog bowl & his disclosing secret info on his own though (when he was about to be executed)
he spoke about it but not until Kara asked him to - it wuz almost like he didn't care much about saving his own life :tealcanime49:

Like he said, he wasn't going to beg. I doubt it would have changed the minds of the circle had the chief not been there. They had pretty much made their own minds up without any investigation. Happy/lucky coincidence that the chief was chosen for the Circle.

hoof

October 30th, 2006, 12:04 PM

I wonder how the politics of this episode is received. The circle is a symbol of what is going on at Guantanamo, where people are held without the right to a defense or even to know the evidence against them (at least the victims of the circle was informed of the charges).
Roslins speechs against Zarek is like a argument in real world election.

That's just the latest version of something that's been going on since the dawn of time. RDM says in his podcast that the circle and the retribution is loosely based on what happened in France after the allies liberated them from Germany during WW2. Women who had been with German soldiers had their heads shaved, there were killings, etc, anyone who had "collaberated" with the German occupation was at risk. A lot of those that were "punished" probably had something like BSG's circle deciding their fate. The analogy is much closer to post-WW2 France than Guantanamo.

That's one thing I like about BSG, it brings up themes and situations that are timeless, that have happened in real life, and will happen in the future. People are just a little sensitive to what's going on today, thus their first reaction is that BSG is making a statement on today's events. But that's only partly true. There's a reason the phrase "History repeats itself". BSG is just bringing some rather unpleasant aspects of humanity to light, it isn't attempting to judge what's happening today except to show how there might be different views on current events than what we normally see (just like in situations in the past).

Trek_Girl42

October 30th, 2006, 12:05 PM

yup, Gaeta r0xd big time :cool:

I didn't care much about Jammer though (not that I really wanted him offed or anything)

I'm surprised Gaeta didn't mention the dog bowl & his disclosing secret info on his own though (when he was about to be executed)
he spoke about it but not until Kara asked him to - it wuz almost like he didn't care much about saving his own life :tealcanime49:
That didn't surprise me much- Gaeta knows that he did everything he possibly could have in the situation, but he still feels the guilt over the events of New Caprica, he certainly didn't believe he should die for it, but I think he still does feel the guilt of it all anyway. That is the mark of a good person. :)

SoulReaver

October 30th, 2006, 12:20 PM

Like he said, he wasn't going to beg. I doubt it would have changed the minds of the circle had the chief not been there. They had pretty much made their own minds up without any investigation. Happy/lucky coincidence that the chief was chosen for the Circle.Since when does telling the truth equate with "begging" ? If Gaeta wanted to die, or didn't care about living (for some obscure reason) that would explain his behavior

but assuming he wanted to live, why the heck didn't he pipe up ?

That he chose not to "beg" for his life was one thing - question of honor - but wouldn't that be all the more a reason for him to speak up, even berate them (that's the opposite of "begging" -) about how wrong they were & telling them about the dog bowl ? not doing so would have meant dying with his former comrades (wrongfully) thinking of him as a traitor - not a very honorable death is it ?

As for the lack of investigation...they did give him a chance, not to beg but to explain himself - and like the chief said this was a secret signal only known to him, so Gaeta's very mentioning of it would have been enough to prove him true
And even had the chief been absent from the circle, Tigh as the leader knew they had an informant & knew it was the chief who recovered the secret info - he'd surely have postponed the execution pending further inquiry, and found out that Gaeta was indeed telling the truth

foxhound22

October 30th, 2006, 12:27 PM

That's a common misconception that's unfortunately spread by Hollywood amongst other things. :mckay:

The other misconceptions would be that it only takes TV Detectives an hour to solve a murder. :)

SoulReaver

October 30th, 2006, 12:28 PM

That didn't surprise me much- Gaeta knows that he did everything he possibly could have in the situation, but he still feels the guilt over the events of New Caprica, he certainly didn't believe he should die for it, but I think he still does feel the guilt of it all anyway. That is the mark of a good person. :)a bit of guilt perhaps but heck, c'mon, not the point of deserving execution !?
though perhaps that's as close as we can get to an explanation

Still, you'd expect Gaeta to speak up & tell them about his role as an informant, if not to save his life, at least 1) to save his honor, so the others wouldn't think of him as an evil traitor and 2) dispel some of the guilt, knowing that he did offer the resistance crucial help, and letting his fellow crewmembers also know about it - thus making them feel some of the guilt too (for executing him :o)

Trek_Girl42

October 30th, 2006, 12:54 PM

a bit of guilt perhaps but heck, c'mon, not the point of deserving execution !?
though perhaps that's as close as we can get to an explanation

Still, you'd expect Gaeta to speak up & tell them about his role as an informant, if not to save his life, at least 1) to save his honor, so the others wouldn't think of him as an evil traitor and 2) dispel some of the guilt, knowing that he did offer the resistance crucial help, and letting his fellow crewmembers also know about it - thus making them feel some of the guilt too (for executing him :o)
He's also probably very tired- he's been playing a duel role for the past four months, and of course everyone had been on the run before that, and Gaeta had a very high-stress job (and despite his "perfect officer" appearence, we already know that he caves to stress- the tatoo, the smoking). He has to have a limited tollerance level. Maybe there is a small part of him that wanted them to get it over with. He didn't want to die, but there's a part of him that doesn't care, that stems from the guilt, stress, etc.

And having everyone hate him didn't help either.

Speaking of stress, I'm surprised that the population count hasn't being going down even further due to suicides, etc. Side question- should that number be fluctuating a bit more from week to week then it has been? Or will that just confuse some viewers. (then again, the ones keeping exact track of the number already probably get the idea)

LoneStar1836

October 30th, 2006, 01:06 PM

I assumed that Gaeta didn’t bother to say anything as he was about to be killed because he had already tried to explain to Kara in the mess hall that he had provided information to the resistance. Maybe he thought she had at least relayed this information to the rest of the Circle, but they still didn’t care so he saw no point in begging. Plus he had told her that and she still voted for him to be executed. Obviously Kara didn't care since she didn't participate in the resistance activities, but you'd think she would have at least said something to Tigh and Tyrol.

SoulReaver

October 30th, 2006, 01:11 PM

Maybe he thought she had at least relayed this information to the rest of the Circle, but they still didn’t care so he saw no point in begging. Plus he had told her that and she still voted for him to be executed. Obviously Kara didn't care since she didn't participate in the resistance activities, but you'd think she would have at least said something to Tigh and Tyrol.rofl...that'd be some "thinking"...it wouldn't have cost him much effort to repeat it to his executionners, IMO
Besides Kara also told him to explain himself, so to him she was still giving him a chance - yet he turned it down & only seized it when Gallen intervened

SoulReaver

October 30th, 2006, 01:13 PM

He's also probably very tired- he's been playing a duel role for the past four months, and of course everyone had been on the run before that, and Gaeta had a very high-stress job (and despite his "perfect officer" appearence, we already know that he caves to stress- the tatoo, the smoking). He has to have a limited tollerance level. Maybe there is a small part of him that wanted them to get it over with. He didn't want to die, but there's a part of him that doesn't care, that stems from the guilt, stress, etc.

And having everyone hate him didn't help either.a stress+job fatigue+bewilderment+guilt+hate combo... yeah I'll go with that - good enough in my book :cool:

Trek_Girl42

October 30th, 2006, 01:16 PM

a stress+job fatigue+bewilderment+guilt+hate combo... yeah I'll go with that - good enough in my book :cool:
Poor guy, all of those emotions would crush anyone's will to keep going. :S It is a testament to AJ and the writers that we have all of these emotions from a supporting character to specualte on!

LoneStar1836

October 30th, 2006, 01:43 PM

rofl...that'd be some "thinking"...it wouldn't have cost him much effort to repeat it to his executionners, IMO
Besides Kara also told him to explain himself, so to him she was still giving him a chance - yet he turned it down & only seized it when Gallen intervenedOf course it wouldn’t have cost him anything to plead his case again, but what was the point in begging again? He had already pleaded his case to Kara. She didn’t care. One would assume that she might have said something to the others. Why beg now? They obviously didn’t care and were hell bent on executing him.

Kara wasn’t giving him another chance to save himself. She wanted him to beg for her own satisfaction and benefit…to make herself feel better, imo.

SoulReaver

October 30th, 2006, 02:18 PM

Of course it wouldn’t have cost him anything to plead his case again, but what was the point in begging again? He had already pleaded his case to Kara. She didn’t care. One would assume that she might have said something to the others. Why beg now? They obviously didn’t care and were hell bent on executing him.

Kara wasn’t giving him another chance to save himself. She wanted him to beg for her own satisfaction and benefit…to make herself feel better, imo.yeah but once again this wasn't about "pleading" or "begging" - Kara wanted him to beg yet he didn't, and didn't have to, but he could also have taken this chance to scold all of them for having been so wrong about him, by revealing his double identity & the fact that he'd been helping the insurgents all along - maybe not to save his life, but at least to save face - u know, like I said question of Honor :cool:

SoulReaver

October 30th, 2006, 02:32 PM

Speaking of stress, I'm surprised that the population count hasn't being going down even further due to suicides, etc. Side question- should that number be fluctuating a bit more from week to week then it has been? Or will that just confuse some viewers. (then again, the ones keeping exact track of the number already probably get the idea)well I'd expect it to go down no doubt - but "fluctuating" would also mean also going up...and with the occupation & its aftermath & all that I doubt making babies would have been or will be the colonials' main preoccupation :|

Trek_Girl42

October 30th, 2006, 02:59 PM

well I'd expect it to go down no doubt - but "fluctuating" would also mean also going up...and with the occupation & its aftermath & all that I doubt making babies would have been or will be the colonials' main preoccupation :|
I was thinking more of last season.....where the numbers didn't seem to change unless we actually saw someone die- weren't any children born during that time? Weren't there other deaths throughout the fleet?

As for this season don't forget that there will still be women who got pregnant before the occupation that could still be months away from delivering. I'm sure there will be more children concieved but yes, probably not as many compared to the year on new caprica before the occupation.

And don't forget that despite being in the resistance, Jammer and his wife were still trying to have a baby, I'm sure others were as well. ;) And there are still a lot of civilians out there with nothing else to do. :P

SoulReaver

October 30th, 2006, 03:09 PM

cramped up onboard a battleship : not the best, um, "conceivable" setting either :o
As for this season don't forget that there will still be women who got pregnant before the occupation that could still be months away from delivering.maybe

one thing's for sure though - this show delivered, from day 1 :cool:

:sheppardanime21:

Trek_Girl42

October 30th, 2006, 03:30 PM

cramped up onboard a battleship : not the best, um, "conceivable" setting either :o

Well, where there's a will, they'll find a way..... :P

one thing's for sure though - this show delivered, from day 1 :cool: :sheppardanime21:
*groans* :rolleyes:

SoulReaver

October 30th, 2006, 03:39 PM

*groans* :rolleyes::tealcanime22:

http://img.presence-pc.com/forum/icones/smilies/mmmfff.gif

Lightbane

October 30th, 2006, 05:00 PM

Well, where there's a will, they'll find a way..... :P

*groans* :rolleyes:

Pity that Cloud Nine got blown up, where else anybody got any suggestion?

:cool: :cool:

grover

October 30th, 2006, 05:19 PM

Perhaps....but unless I've forgotten, she didn't mention the first massacre either. :)

Well, ya got me there. She didn't reference the Cylons coming and detroying the Colonies either, so I guess that means that little event didn't happen.:P

There simply wasn't enough time for there to be a second massacre that Jammer could have been responsible for.

Trek_Girl42

October 30th, 2006, 05:51 PM

Well, ya got me there. She didn't reference the Cylons coming and detroying the Colonies either, so I guess that means that little event didn't happen.:P

There simply wasn't enough time for there to be a second massacre that Jammer could have been responsible for.
No kidding! I'm glad it was just a mentioned rather then us seeing a second massecre, we saw enough of the NCP's other deeds to get the idea. :)

daniel9

October 30th, 2006, 07:39 PM

rarocks24

October 30th, 2006, 07:43 PM

lol one has to wonder if baltar knew what gaeta was doing? so now gaeta's conscience is good since baltar told him that he didnt sin and called hima idealist. and then the circle finding out the things he did and stopped him from being killed
That's only because Starbuck mentioned it in an attempt to taunt him, and Tyrol was there to hear it. Tyrol instantly recognized Gaeta as the source, and informed the circle.

I'm sure Gaeta is feeling really ****ty right now about the fact that he interfered with the rigged voting.

daniel9

October 30th, 2006, 07:46 PM

well with the rigged voting he was only doing the right thing. and id ont see why he would feel ****ty now wouldntt he feel liberated now that everyone knows he is the one who saved their butts?

Astrofighter

October 30th, 2006, 10:27 PM

in hind sight im sure he would rather he didnt note the voting tampering, because if nothing else he would have saved nearly the 7,000 or so lives lost between the nuke on cloud nine and the lives lost on new caprica to the cylons.

Major Fischer

October 31st, 2006, 12:53 AM

well with the rigged voting he was only doing the right thing. and id ont see why he would feel ****ty now wouldntt he feel liberated now that everyone knows he is the one who saved their butts?

"Everyone" doesn't know that. The Circle knows it, I doubt they're walking around announcing to the world that they were the circle. The point of Zarek's actions were to do this in secret, so that people just "disappeared". Advertising the court or it's members would just let the "convicted" become martyrs.

I'm pretty sure what happened was that Gaeta told Adama as soon as he got away and that's what lead to the scene with Roslin and Zarek. You'll note that Roslin doesn't mention the Circle at all in her public speech, and Gaeta is still sitting alone at the end when Tyrol goes to sit down.

Skydiver

October 31st, 2006, 04:39 AM

lol one has to wonder if baltar knew what gaeta was doing? so now gaeta's conscience is good since baltar told him that he didnt sin and called hima idealist. and then the circle finding out the things he did and stopped him from being killed
i've wondered that. if gaeta was baltar's 'hand' doing what baltar couldn't do. or if baltar just didn't suspect and turned a blind eye and didn't exactly go looking for the leak in his office

he didn't exactly give gaeta permission to do what he did, but he just kinda doesn't mind that it's happening and ignores it

Othere

October 31st, 2006, 04:53 AM

Since when does telling the truth equate with "begging" ? If Gaeta wanted to die, or didn't care about living (for some obscure reason) that would explain his behavior

but assuming he wanted to live, why the heck didn't he pipe up ?

That he chose not to "beg" for his life was one thing - question of honor - but wouldn't that be all the more a reason for him to speak up, even berate them (that's the opposite of "begging" -) about how wrong they were & telling them about the dog bowl ? not doing so would have meant dying with his former comrades (wrongfully) thinking of him as a traitor - not a very honorable death is it ?

As for the lack of investigation...they did give him a chance, not to beg but to explain himself - and like the chief said this was a secret signal only known to him, so Gaeta's very mentioning of it would have been enough to prove him true
And even had the chief been absent from the circle, Tigh as the leader knew they had an informant & knew it was the chief who recovered the secret info - he'd surely have postponed the execution pending further inquiry, and found out that Gaeta was indeed telling the truth

Tigh is hardly the sanest person on the ship at the moment and had made his mind up already - we saw this in CIC. And he didn't know the details of the drop as he only received the information from tyrol.

I firmly believe that he would have thrown Gaeta out the airlock even if he knew he wasn't guilty. Most of the people on the Circle had made their mind up. Connor wanted Vengence. Kara was looking for anyone to pay for what was done for her - she even said so to Anders.

Gaeta knew this and wasnt going to beg. The circle weren't really in the business of listening - they were pretty much given the folders with the evidence in to make a decision and no evidence from those on trial - they were grabbed, bagged and taken to the place of execution and given a brief moment to explain themselves. I doubt their testimony would have made one bit of difference.

The evidence that they did have came from the highest office at the time. Zarek, as acting president, had pretty much already signed their death warrents.

He could very well have berated them, but it wouldn't have made any difference. The chief, when under pressure, pretty much went with what the group voted for. He was never comfortable with the idea of executing people. And yes, i do believe that had he not been there that Gaeta would have been spaced. There was not one sympathetic face in the circle. They had all been wronged in some way and were looking for payback, even if these guys hadn't personally dont anything to them.

But hey, i'm getting pretty tired of speculating. Gaeta did what he did for his own reasons, that we may or may not ever know. And there will be a path that follows this.
Kara and Tigh are a bit frakked up at this moment and it's going to take time to get over.

SoulReaver

October 31st, 2006, 06:09 AM

Tigh is hardly the sanest person on the ship at the moment and had made his mind up already - we saw this in CIC. And he didn't know the details of the drop as he only received the information from tyrol.

I firmly believe that he would have thrown Gaeta out the airlock even if he knew he wasn't guilty. Most of the people on the Circle had made their mind up. Connor wanted Vengence. Kara was looking for anyone to pay for what was done for her - she even said so to Anders.

Gaeta knew this and wasnt going to beg. The circle weren't really in the business of listening - they were pretty much given the folders with the evidence in to make a decision and no evidence from those on trial - they were grabbed, bagged and taken to the place of execution and given a brief moment to explain themselves. I doubt their testimony would have made one bit of difference.

The evidence that they did have came from the highest office at the time. Zarek, as acting president, had pretty much already signed their death warrents.

He could very well have berated them, but it wouldn't have made any difference. The chief, when under pressure, pretty much went with what the group voted for. He was never comfortable with the idea of executing people. And yes, i do believe that had he not been there that Gaeta would have been spaced. There was not one sympathetic face in the circle. They had all been wronged in some way and were looking for payback, even if these guys hadn't personally dont anything to them.

But hey, i'm getting pretty tired of speculating. Gaeta did what he did for his own reasons, that we may or may not ever know. And there will be a path that follows this.
Kara and Tigh are a bit frakked up at this moment and it's going to take time to get over.bah - they were willing to listen to him, Gallen Kara even Saul...perhaps the only one who really wanted to take him out no matter what was the Connor guy (the one who lost his son - he's really ****ed up under that skull of his, remember even Tigh berated him for that kinda attitude)
That Gaeta didn't wanna beg is one thing, but not wanting to set the record straight is another - such an important revelation as him being the secret informant who saved the insurgency surely wouldn't have gone unnoticed by the others had he come out with it (meaning: Tigh would have checked it out) and I doubt anyone would want their comrades to think of them as traitors, even posthumously
The only semblance of explanation for Gaeta not disclosing this would be a combo of different emotional factors, what Trek chick said - about Gaeta having more or less lost his will to live after the occupation & exodus - seems reasonable enough :cool:

CaraRose

October 31st, 2006, 07:11 AM

SoulReaver

October 31st, 2006, 07:28 AM

rarocks24

October 31st, 2006, 07:36 AM

bleh, Tigh knew about the secret info & he was the ring leader (in the Insurgency and in the Circle)

btw Gaeta told Kara & she believed enough about it to tell him to repeat it to the others, remember ?
Actually, she didn't believe him, she was mocking him. She definitely felt him guilty, or did you not get that part? That was why she was so dissapointed when Tyrol realized that he was, indeed (Gaeta), telling the truth.

Trek_Girl42

October 31st, 2006, 08:05 AM

My assumption is that Gaeta probably didn't know who was recieving his drops, any more than Tyrol knew who was dropping the info. He had no idea how much information about the exchange anyone in the circle knew. Clearly Kara had no idea about it. He already told her, she didn't believe it, why would anyone else?
Well.....Kara was the worst person he could possibley have told.....Gaeta should have known that telling her wouldn't make a bit of difference, I think he knows her well enough to have a pretty good idea of how frakked up she'd be..... Kara probably didn't even think an extra second about what Gaeta said.....

Even Colonal Tigh would have mulled over that if he had been the one sitting at that table with Gaeta.

And I do think that once Gaeta's innocence was established, Colonal Tigh did feel bad. I don't think he was quite at the point where he would have executed Gaeta if he had mentioned the dog bowl to him earlier- Tigh would at least have shared it with the group. Kara just kept quiet. :(

Skydiver

October 31st, 2006, 09:20 AM

i think kara's so screwed up and ticked off that she'll pretty much kill anyone she even thinks collaborated

she lived with the futility of leobahn and not being able to kill him and has to take that anger and frustration out somewhere. where better than the 'guilty'?

Arative

October 31st, 2006, 09:39 AM

Even if Gaeta had told them, they wouldn't have believed him, except for Tyrol who was actually recieving the information. At that point the circle didn't care about explantions, they didn't care about anything except getting vengence. Gaeta knew this, he was going to go out like a man, having made the determination that no matter what he said, it wouldn't have stopped them from executing him. And that is what is wrong with the secret justice, it is almost never true justice.

Kara, I don't think she was looking to kill all the collaborators, she was looking for some one to hurt to lessen her own emotional pain. You could see it in her face when he started to kick Gaeta, she needed him to beg for his life so she could feel better, it was like Gaeta was all the Cylons rolled into one.

Scyld

October 31st, 2006, 11:01 AM

More than likely immediately freeze to death or explode.

Decompression does not make you explode. The most 'explody' type thing that can happen is your lungs can rupture if you try to hold your breath. He probably died of asphixiation.

LoneStar1836

October 31st, 2006, 11:09 AM

Actually, she didn't believe him, she was mocking him.That was the word I was looking for but couldn't think of. Thank you. :)

Kara, I don't think she was looking to kill all the collaborators, she was looking for some one to hurt to lessen her own emotional pain. You could see it in her face when he started to kick Gaeta, she needed him to beg for his life so she could feel better, it was like Gaeta was all the Cylons rolled into one.I agree.

Number 10

October 31st, 2006, 11:16 AM

SoulReaver

October 31st, 2006, 11:26 AM

Actually, she didn't believe him, she was mocking him. She definitely felt him guilty, or did you not get that part? That was why she was so dissapointed when Tyrol realized that he was, indeed (Gaeta), telling the truth.yeah I got that part (that was in the commissary)
and "mocking" ? lol (that's mocking btw)...she didn't exactly come across as being in a "mocking" mood
not that she really believed him later on but she had enough doubt to ask him about it, at least just for the sake of hearing him explaining himself to the rest
She was also very angry at his remarkably impassive countenance (compared to Jammer for example)
in the end she was not disappointed she was surprised like everyone else :cool:

like I said kara was kinda irrelevant anyway - the one man he'd have needed to convince was Tigh

Connor was ready to kill just about anyone for the sake of it, almost regardless of guilt - maybe Kara too as some seem to think, though I'm not convinced

SoulReaver

October 31st, 2006, 11:33 AM

Even Colonal Tigh would have mulled over that if he had been the one sitting at that table with Gaeta.

And I do think that once Gaeta's innocence was established, Colonal Tigh did feel bad. I don't think he was quite at the point where he would have executed Gaeta if he had mentioned the dog bowl to him earlier- Tigh would at least have shared it with the group. Precisely :tealc:

SoulReaver

October 31st, 2006, 11:44 AM

I gotta ask, with all the avid viewers we seem to have in this forum....am I the only one that noticed that Jammer has died three times now.
1) Once in the explosion at the graduation that was meant to kill Baltar.
2) Once when he was suppose to be guarding Hera...
3) And now that he's been thrown out of the airlock.

Is it me or did they just say....hey, we're sort one guy, just lay there and no one will notice.1) Jammer was heading out of the academy
2) Zarek had "assigned" Jammer to guard Roslin, not Hera
3) yeah this time I doubt we'll see him again :|

Trek_Girl42

October 31st, 2006, 11:50 AM

3) yeah this time I doubt we'll see him again :|
You never know..... *cue dramatic music, segwaying into cylon theme* ;) :P

SoulReaver

October 31st, 2006, 11:57 AM

Decompression does not make you explode. The most 'explody' type thing that can happen is your lungs can rupture if you try to hold your breath. He probably died of asphixiation.aaah Jammer's death

this is what I hypothesize :

when he was sucked out the airlock, the pressure around him dropped to 0. Of course given the body's internal pressure which balances out normal atmospheric pressure at sea level (~ 1bar), there was too little a difference for him to explode like a water balloon. However that difference would have still caused his arteries & veins to bloat out - various body fluids like blood etc would have begun to leak out - though not an explosion that would still have killed him, probably long before he could succumb to asphyxiation.

btw those fluids would have boiled (upon entering vacuum) then frozen via heat radiation since that's the only means of heat transfer in space, same for the water vapor in his breath when expiring which would also have frozen - though I don't think this would have been enough to freeze him to death

So basically it's the pressure drop that killed him "first", not freezing or asphyxiation, IMO

hoof

October 31st, 2006, 12:08 PM

aaah Jammer's death

this is what I hypothesize :

when he was sucked out the airlock, the pressure around him dropped to 0. Of course given the body's internal pressure which balances out normal atmospheric pressure at sea level (~ 1bar), there was too little a difference for him to explode like a water balloon. However that difference would have still caused his arteries & veins to bloat out - various body fluids like blood etc would have begun to leak out - though not an explosion that would still have killed him, probably long before he could succumb to asphyxiation.

btw those fluids would have boiled (upon entering vacuum) then frozen via heat radiation since that's the only means of heat transfer in space, same for the water vapor in his breath when expiring which would also have frozen - though I don't think this would have been enough to freeze him to death

So basically it's the pressure drop that killed him "first", not freezing or asphyxiation, IMO

I posted this earlier, but given how big the thread is I'm not surprised you missed it.

Here's what NASA (you know, the organization who sends real people on real space missions) has to say about the effects of vacuum on the human body:

http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/ask_astro/answers/970603.html

hoof

October 31st, 2006, 12:10 PM

rarocks24

October 31st, 2006, 12:12 PM

I posted this earlier, but given how big the thread is I'm not surprised you missed it.

Here's what NASA (you know, the organization who sends real people on real space missions) has to say about the effects of vacuum on the human body:

http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/as...rs/970603.html
Um, that's apparently a dead link.

SoulReaver

October 31st, 2006, 12:29 PM

I had a copy/paste problem with the link in my last post.

Here's the correct link to NASA's response to the question of what happens when a live human is exposed to vacuum:

http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/ask_astro/answers/970603.htmlthx :cool:

so basically I wuz right in that he wouldn't freeze or explode, but on the other hand he would lose consciousness for lack of 02 even before his body fluids leaked out :o

CaraRose

November 1st, 2006, 07:21 AM

I gotta ask, with all the avid viewers we seem to have in this forum....am I the only one that noticed that Jammer has died three times now.
Once in the explosion at the graduation that was meant to kill Baltar.
Once when he was suppose to be guarding Hera...
And now that he's been thrown out of the airlock.

Is it me or did they just say....hey, we're sort one guy, just lay there and no one will notice.

I don't believe Jammer was at that graduation. Does someone have a screen shot for this, or is it assumption?

He didn't guard Hera. He was given a gun and told to guard Rosilin.

ceecat

November 1st, 2006, 08:06 PM

I don't believe Jammer was at that graduation. Does someone have a screen shot for this, or is it assumption?

He didn't guard Hera. He was given a gun and told to guard Rosilin.

He was at the graduation. In fact, he was RIGHT behind Duck when he blew. Then, after the shot of all the dead bodies, you see him again. I have hypothesized in other groups that Jammer is a cylon because of that.

The Shadow

November 1st, 2006, 08:29 PM

Let me put it this way...Say one day Chinese tanks started rolling down your street. Say they started facing resistance from americans just like you and me. Then say posters started popping up encouraging people like you and me to join the Chinese sponcored police force. What would you do?

Yea thats what I thought.

I am Chinese and I resent that statement about the Chinese tanks attacking US.....never going to happen in your lifetime anyway....becareful with what comes out of your mouth....

And really..how do you get tanks across the ocean? Unless you're planning to sink a ship or crash a plane?

Now onto the ep.....

Best moment......"Now, I have a date with a jumprope.", "Keep Jumping."

It's too bad Jammer died...sometimes you join the enemy with the intent to survive and help your people, but things don't always turn out that way and that's what happened to Jammer...He's certainly not evil, or he would have shot Cally in cold-blood without hesitance....but he didn't and helped her to escape.....

I'm glad that Gaeta survived....we need more people like him who can stand up for their own actions and not backing in the face of accusations....too many times these days that politicians and military commanders switched from one story to another trying to cover or their mistakes.....but Gaeta didn't, he said what he needed to say and accepted his death if that's what they're gonna do...

I am always surprised by BSG...at the fact that they incorporate so much things from the real world now and questions the morality or decisions that are made....not many shows are brave enough to take that risk....

I certainly don't count myself as knowing everything....this is just my opinion....I'm not asking for people to agree with me....or that I am right abour everything I said here.....I am not infallible....

To quote from Grey's Anatomy, "The only person that can make a promise like that is God and I haven't seen him holding a scalple!"

You know it's funny that this whole debate of Justice and Revenge is exactly what we're talkin about in English II class with Plato's The Republic...

Xenocide

November 1st, 2006, 09:25 PM

I am Chinese and I resent that statement about the Chinese tanks attacking US.....never going to happen in your lifetime anyway....becareful with what comes out of your mouth....

And really..how do you get tanks across the ocean? Unless you're planning to sink a ship or crash a plane?

Now onto the ep.....

Umm I think he just chose a random country, and that you're taking it a little too seriously

helio9

November 1st, 2006, 10:37 PM

Trek_Girl42

November 1st, 2006, 11:00 PM

Gaeta definately had it tough. I think he did pretty much all he could. But in the end he didnt know who was at the other end of the dog bowl any more than Tyrol knew it was him.

I think that episode proves that Tom Zerek clearly isn't vice presidential material. Sure, collarborators are bad, but at that point they had to move forward, and they need everyone they had. There is no excuse for, at that point, throwing people, especially skilled people like Jammer, out of airlocks. So he was a cop for the cylons. Don't sit next to him at mess. But if he can fix a viper, you need him.

Roslin did the only sane thing. A mass pardon was the only way.

EDIT- That was probably talked about earlier in the thread. Give me a break, it's 12 pages:P.
Lol. :P

I absolutly agree, a mass-pardon was the only way to resolve the situation in a manner that would support the goal of the fleet- saving humanity. They have bigger issues out there then the need for vengence. There will be a lot of people who are angry over this, but as Roslin says, they need to move forward. They can't afford to stay stuck in the same debate for months on end, all it will lead to is their downfall.

SoulReaver

November 2nd, 2006, 05:04 AM

I am Chinese and I resent that statement about the Chinese tanks attacking US.....never going to happen in your lifetime anyway....I agree - they're busy enough running over their own citizens http://img.presence-pc.com/forum/images/perso/kryten.gif

SoulReaver

November 2nd, 2006, 05:05 AM

I absolutly agree, a mass-pardon was the only way to resolve the situation in a manner that would support the goal of the fleet- saving humanity. They have bigger issues out there then the need for vengence. There will be a lot of people who are angry over thisyep - won't be surprised if the murder rate shoots up in the next few days hehe...

The Shadow

November 2nd, 2006, 08:19 AM

I agree - they're busy enough running over their own citizens http://img.presence-pc.com/forum/images/perso/kryten.gif

Is that sarcasm I hear??
**********************
Oh and I wasn't taking it seriously.....just warning him that others may not be okay with it.....he's bring up a rather touchy-some topic for some people...and maybe that next time when using examples..becareful with what is written down...some may take offense at it even if it's unintended...the way he worded the sentence just struck a nerve on me and some of my friends and I thought he should know about that....
***************************************
Roslin's decision of mass pardon- some people deserved it while others don't...people like Gaeta should be honored....Jammer was caught up in "the wrong place at the wrong time" but if we do take a life for a life...didn't Jammer help protect the fleet from the cylons and flew vipers out into battles? Did they forget that he was one of those that risked his life to protect the fleet when they were running away from the cylons all those years? So he and his men killed 23 people, including children, but didn't he save even more people, women and children alike, everytime he flys out to fight off cylon attacks....I think they've forgotten all the good things he did..they were certainly clouded by their own feelings....

Yes Jammer is guilty of killing those people...but I thought getting airlocked was going over the line...

hbk314

November 2nd, 2006, 12:26 PM

Jammer wasn't a pilot. He worked with Tyrol and Cally.

helio9

November 2nd, 2006, 03:01 PM

This ep also proves what we already knew, Col. Tigh is a really crappy officer. He's just crazy/damaged/unstable enough to be a good insurgency leader, but as an officer his personal flaws and bad judgement overwhelm any good he can do.
Having to kill his wife will probably make it even worse.

grover

November 3rd, 2006, 05:58 AM

No kidding! I'm glad it was just a mentioned rather then us seeing a second massecre, we saw enough of the NCP's other deeds to get the idea. :)

Wow. You have no idea what I'm talking about, do you?

There was no second massacre.

Jammer was executed for leading a massacre at a Temple. The writers were referrencing the Temple massacre from the webisodes. This is a major continuity mistake because Jammer wasn't part of the NCP when the massacre happened!

The timeline does not support a second Temple massacre, at least not one that Jammer could have taken part in.

Major Fischer

November 3rd, 2006, 06:18 AM

The timeline does not support a second Temple massacre, at least not one that Jammer could have taken part in.

You are assuming a continuity mistake and claiming the timeline doesn't support another massacre without evidence to support that claim. The temple massacre as described in Jammer's execution is different in almost every detail than the one from the Webisodes. The NCP did not exist as such when the first temple massacre occured.

The second massacre describes the NCP (not cylon centurions) killing people after they came out in an attempt to surrendar. There is clearly some amount of time between the suicide bombing that would have brought down a heavy response from the NCP and Roslin's release from detention. It could have been days... it could have been as much as two weeks.

Actionhank

November 3rd, 2006, 07:10 AM

Does Colonel Tigh now play the role of "Captain Ahab"? ;)

lutin

November 3rd, 2006, 07:54 AM

Decent ep.

-So, no Adama/Roslin reunion scene. No real scenes at all between them. Boo, I say boo sir.

-Cally, wha? Who forgets about someone cutting your bonds and yelling at you to escape from what you thought was certain death?

-Ha, I thought that Roslin would elect Zarek as VP. And I was all for the duo until I found out that he was responsible for the Circle. Is he going to keep his position after he revealed his actions to her? Adama looks less than impressed with him. How did Zarek turn from an ex-prisoner demanding democracy in the fleet to a president okay with trials kept hidden from the public?

-Tigh's lost it and I find myself more peeved with him than sympathetic. Openly attacking Gaeta on the CIC and arguing with Adama was OTT. I feel like he died back on NC and there's only a shell walking around. Will he heal or will TPTB kill him off in some kind of suicide run? And why does Adama allow him to remain as 2IC (if that's what he is) when Tigh so obviously needs ten years or so of downtime and Lee or Helo could take his place?

-No discussion on who's the higher rank now, Tigh or Lee. What's Lee doing nowadays besides the jumprope? And what's up with Adama's cold dismissal toward his son, especially after their reunion last ep?

-Poor Gaeta. No one wants to eat lunch with him in the mess hall, Starbuck gives him a good boot, and he almost dies. At least he didn't beg. I wonder if the ep would have been more powerful if they had killed Gaeta before realizing that he was the contact.

-It would have been nice to see Sharon. What would the Circle have thought of her? Does she get a pardon because she's working for Adama now and helped save them, even though she's a cylon?

-Meh, losing the Starbuck love this ep. She's going through tough times after her capture, she knows she's going through tough times, but she doesn't care. She dumps Anders, she goes after Gaeta with a viciousness. So that's the end of Starbuck/Anders, total shock really (/sarcasm). Next ep - the end of Lee/Dee (okay, maybe not next ep but I can't see that one going long if TPTB are setting up Lee/Kara). I swear, if TPTB keep Starbuck around as a total wreck just waiting for Lee to come in and save her, I'm going to be most disappointed.

-Ha ha, Baltar. IM IN UR BASESTAR, WEARIN UR ROBEZ. I can't believe that the cylons are going to kill him off, so I'm interested in where this is going. Anyone catch what those pills were? Also, would Roslin have pardoned Baltar too if he was on Galactica?

I totally agree with that.

I just want to add. I think now we had enough Tigh angst. And as much as I like him (a little few, now), and other secondary characters, I miss the main cast.
I 'm waiting to see more interactions like in season 2, now
Adama isn't very much present, and I find the show incomplete without him. We didn't see a lot of Lee or Sharon so far.

So, bring back Adama and ADAMA/Lee, Adama/ Kara, Adama Roslin, ect...

Thank you!!!