Whats wrong with Network scifi

[the Fifth Race]

With the cancellations of Surface and Invasion its obvious that science fiction does not sell with major Networks these days. Personally I thought Surface in particular was a great show. It was well written, interesting and had a great cast. Invasion was kind of blase the first half of the season but picked up nicely in the second half. I think both Surface and especially Invasion were made because of the popularity of Lost, even though Lost might not be considered scifi by some people. Season II of Lost is way down in ratings compared to season I, could season III be the last?.

Is there any hope of either one of these series being picked up by a cable network or even possibly the scifi network. I doubt it, but you can always wish and hope

[Pharaoh Atem]

With the cancellations of Surface and Invasion its obvious that science fiction does not sell with major Networks these days. Personally I thought Surface in particular was a great show. It was well written, interesting and had a great cast. Invasion was kind of blase the first half of the season but picked up nicely in the second half. I think both Surface and especially Invasion were made because of the popularity of Lost, even though Lost might not be considered scifi by some people. Season II of Lost is way down in ratings compared to season I, could season III be the last?.

Is there any hope of either one of these series being picked up by a cable network or even possibly the scifi network. I doubt it, but you can always wish and hope

now you know how firefly fans felt

[ShadowMaat]

Lost may have experienced a ratings dip, but even the dip leaves them miles above the rest of the competition.

The problem with network scifi is that the Suits (and mainstream audiences) still have very outdated biases and stereotypes regarding what scifi is and what kind of people watch it. The Suits think it's too small and clique-y an audience to be viable and the mainstream watchers picture freaks in Starfleet uniforms and pointy ears running around and they're deeply afraid they'll be associated with them.

The Suits also have very clear ideas on what scifi is and try to force shows to fit into that mold, even though 90% of the time it doesn't fit.

Lost slipped in under the radar because for the longest time no one knew WTF it was and by the time they started to figure it out it was too late: they were hooked.

Invasion failed, IMO, because they took every cliche in the book and regurgitated them without adding any new twists. Surface failed because it didn't know what it was doing. Threshold failed because it tried to be too many things at once.

If you're going to attempt a mainstream scifi series, you have to have VERY clear ideas about what you want it to be and you have to be able to communicate that idea to the audience in a way that is new and interesting.

I think there are too many biases in place for a hardcore scifi series to work on mainstream TV. The Suits don't want it and the audiences won't watch it. It's a niche thing and it probably always will be. And that isn't necessarily a bad thing. It's only when attempts are made and they fail miserably that it gets aggravating.

That being said, there are some science fictiony shows scheduled for the Fall Season and I'll be curious to see how audiences receive them... and how the producers handle the elements.

I don't think Surface, Invasion or Threshold will ever return. Which is a shame because I want to know Jackson's story, dammit.

[the Fifth Race]

now you know how firefly fans felt

I'm with you there Capt!, Firefly is another great example of same thing, it almost came back but fell through in the end. Firefly would have gotten better had it been given a chance to at least unfold over a couple more seasons.

[Pharaoh Atem]

I'm with you there Capt!, Firefly is another great example of same thing, it almost came back but fell through in the end. Firefly would have gotten better had it been given a chance to at least unfold over a couple more seasons.

ya joss whedon shows are never given much of a chance

[Pharaoh Atem]

i don't watch lost much but i think it will be around for a while season 3 is going to be run like 24

ever week it's going to be a new epsiode no reruns at all

as long as there keep making the fans ask questions and give them answers and feed it to them slowly it will be a round

[the Fifth Race]

Lost may have experienced a ratings dip, but even the dip leaves them miles above the rest of the competition.

Agreed!. IMO Lost has slipped in season II storyline wise as well, don't get me wrong it still is a great show.

The problem with network scifi is that the Suits (and mainstream audiences) still have very outdated biases and stereotypes regarding what scifi is and what kind of people watch it. The Suits think it's too small and clique-y an audience to be viable and the mainstream watchers picture freaks in Starfleet uniforms and pointy ears running around and they're deeply afraid they'll be associated with them.

The Suits also have very clear ideas on what scifi is and try to force shows to fit into that mold, even though 90% of the time it doesn't fit.

I also agree with your point of view about the "outdated, stereotypes and biases" connected with how Star Trek impacted the way the "Suits" view what and who the average scifi TV watching fan likes or wants.

Invasion failed, IMO, because they took every cliche in the book and regurgitated them without adding any new twists. Surface failed because it didn't know what it was doing. Threshold failed because it tried to be too many things at once.

LOL, very true about Invasion and I agree Surface did seem without direction but there still was a lot of potential with the creature being man made and the crazy genetic experiments that were going on. In idea, I liked where it was headed. Threshold IMHO was another series that had potential but I did seem rather busy with to many story lines going on at once, kind of like how BSG was in season I.

If you're going to attempt a mainstream scifi series, you have to have VERY clear ideas about what you want it to be and you have to be able to communicate that idea to the audience in a way that is new and interesting.

I think there are too many biases in place for a hardcore scifi series to work on mainstream TV. The Suits don't want it and the audiences won't watch it. It's a niche thing and it probably always will be. And that isn't necessarily a bad thing. It's only when attempts are made and they fail miserably that it gets aggravating.

It does get aggravating!. Very well said!.

That being said, there are some science fictiony shows scheduled for the Fall Season and I'll be curious to see how audiences receive them... and how the producers handle the elements.

This is the one of reasons I started this thread. It will be interesting to see how they do rating wise, and more importantly if they are any good.

I don't think Surface, Invasion or Threshold will ever return. Which is a shame because I want to know Jackson's story, dammit.

Deep down I know there is basically no chance of any of those 3 mentioned series coming back. They are all rather expensive to produce and smaller cable networks just do not have the resources to produce shows like these unless they are popular.

Great post Shadow!, thanx for your input.

[Anubis69]

i don't watch lost much but i think it will be around for a while season 3 is going to be run like 24

ever week it's going to be a new epsiode no reruns at all

as long as there keep making the fans ask questions and give them answers and feed it to them slowly it will be a round

If it goes any further than S3 or S4 i'll just give up. There's only so much they can do on that little island as well as killing off cast members to keep it interesting. I want to know what's happening and why they're there not every detail and mistake of their lives, regardless of how "interesting" they are and how well they emphasise points.

IMO any more than 3 or 4 years and it's gonna be slow, drawn out and poor. They should just make say now how many seasons they're planning and suck as many people in as possible then resolve the plot.

[the fifth man]

The networks definitely have to get their acts together concerning their handling of Sci-Fi shows. Too many good ones have been given up on. And sadly, I'm sure many more soon-to-be cancelled shows will pop up and disappear before they ever get it right. They need to give these shows more of a chance to develop themselves before simply axing them.

[Trek_Girl42]

Take my opinion with a grain of salt, I haven't seen Invasion or Surface and only a bit of Threshold, but primarily I state my reasons below.

It's kind of strange, many of the network sci-fi shows really haven't grabbed my attention- Invasion looked uninteresting, Surface look ridiculous, Threshold I watched about three episodes of and it was all right, but there seemed to be nothing in it that pushed it over the top and said "this is a unique show that hasn't been done before". All in all, the networks aren't taking enough risks with these shows- I think they really need to gamble rather then play the safe route. In the era of BSG and Lost (keeping in mind that I haven't actually seen Lost, so I'm going by what seems to be a general concensus, yes, I'll have to catch up next season), the bar has been raised for sci-fi shows and for a new show to be mediocre just doesn't cut it. Sci-fi fans have seen what can be done in this genre and many want more cutting edge sci-fi- any new show that comes up will be compared to the likes of BSG and Lost, so far they are falling short. I'm a sci-fi addict and these shows aren't grabbing me, so I have to wonder what they're doing attract the non-sci-fi viewer, apparently not enough.

[the Fifth Race]

Take my opinion with a grain of salt, I haven't seen Invasion or Surface and only a bit of Threshold, but primarily I state my reasons below.

It's kind of strange, many of the network sci-fi shows really haven't grabbed my attention- Invasion looked uninteresting, Surface look ridiculous, Threshold I watched about three episodes of and it was all right, but there seemed to be nothing in it that pushed it over the top and said "this is a unique show that hasn't been done before". All in all, the networks aren't taking enough risks with these shows- I think they really need to gamble rather then play the safe route. In the era of BSG and Lost (keeping in mind that I haven't actually seen Lost, so I'm going by what seems to be a general concensus, yes, I'll have to catch up next season), the bar has been raised for sci-fi shows and for a new show to be mediocre just doesn't cut it. Sci-fi fans have seen what can be done in this genre and many want more cutting edge sci-fi- any new show that comes up will be compared to the likes of BSG and Lost, so far they are falling short. I'm a sci-fi addict and these shows aren't grabbing me, so I have to wonder what they're doing attract the non-sci-fi viewer, apparently not enough.

I agree with you that the some of the newer scifi shows that have bombed like Threshold and Invasion did not offer anything new or exciting, just a lot of regurgitated stuff we have seen in some form or another before.

IMHO shows like Lost, BSG and Surface did offer something new and interesting. Like ShadowMaat stated earlier on this thread Surface could not figure out where it was headed and it seemed obvious watching it, although it was starting to take shape right before they pulled the plug.

I guess in the eyes of TPTB with the Networks that scifi still has potential to make money for them because they are coming out with a couple new scifi genre shows this year. I still believe that they saw how big of ratings Lost got and they are using that as a gauge and it is not easy for these new scifi shows to live up to the popularity Lost enjoys.

Thanks to the USA Network the brought back The 4400 so just maybe there is a chance Surface might pop up again.

Damn Trek_Girl, you have never seen Lost yet?. I have a couple season I DVD box sets of Lost, I would love to loan and send you one (along with some DS9 box sets). Just let me know, season I of Lost was wild ride of show.

[Wyrminarrd]

The problem with network sci-fi shows is that the execs don´t give them the time they need to get going.

Take Threshold as an example. The show started a bit slow but was getting progressively better and some of it´s best material wasn´t even aired before the show was cancelled! This is imo a classic case of execs jumping the gun and cancelling a show before it managed to get of the ground.

As for Surface and Invasion... I admit that after 3-4 episodes of each I lost interest in them and stopped watching.

[MarshAngel]

I have to disagree in regards to Invasion. I think it failed because it tried too hard to imitate Lost in its pacing, not necessarily because it was cliched. Cliches are perfectly acceptable to the TV audience when combined with other ingredients of good casting, good writing, pacing etc.... There certainly are plenty enough cliches around.

Invasion likely lost its audience because the plot was so slow in the first half and it really floundered with the characters and was more than a little disjointed in the beginning. If they had managed to get the intensity and focus they had in the second half in the first, the show might still be here. As the old saying goes, 'begin as you mean to go on.'

I think a similar thing happened with Surface. Although it was much better at plotting than Invasion. On the matters of character and just plain making sense though, it wasn't as good as it could be.

I think we simply need better writing. Scifi is hard for a lot of people to buy because of preconceived notions and a long history of bad shows. It also has a mark against it from the outset since the number of successful series in the past few years are really small. If it's to be successful it has to be a cut above average since the networks aren't going to take pity and give it the benefit of the doubt and wait till it gets good. If it can't hold on to the initial audience it's over and I think the writers need to face up to it.

On the other hand, I think many of the scifi series considered fairly successful on cable, would be canceled on major networks anyway. It's a niche audience but networks are looking for broad appeal. Maybe those days (were they ever around) are gone? Can scifi be good scifi and still have broad appeal?

[the Fifth Race]

I think we simply need better writing. Scifi is hard for a lot of people to buy because of preconceived notions and a long history of bad shows. It also has a mark against it from the outset since the number of successful series in the past few years are really small. If it's to be successful it has to be a cut above average since the networks aren't going to take pity and give it the benefit of the doubt and wait till it gets good. If it can't hold on to the initial audience it's over and I think the writers need to face up to it.

Well said MarshAngel. IMHO scifi is harder for some people to understand and enjoy, a lot of people simply never give a scifi based show a chance, maybe because of preconceived notions about pointy ears and green skinned aliens or simply like I stated, some people just find it to difficult to comprehend so a large group of people never view even one episode.

On the other hand, I think many of the scifi series considered fairly successful on cable, would be canceled on major networks anyway. It's a niche audience but networks are looking for broad appeal. Maybe those days (were they ever around) are gone? Can scifi be good scifi and still have broad appeal?

That is a great question "are they ever around" in reference to whether scifi was ever popular on any of the major networks. Even the original Star Trek had rating problems and most of the loyal viewers were fringe types. The original Battle Star Galactica enjoyed good ratings for awhile but didn't last very long.

I would consider shows like Stargate, Stargate Atlantis, BSG, Farscape, Babylon 5, various Trek series ...etc... as successful by cable network standards, and I agree with you that they most likely wouldn't to well on the major networks.

[ShadowMaat]

Oh yes, the writing definitely needs to be better. Suits and Audiences may be reluctant to try scifi, but if the quality of the stories is good enough, sometimes it can overcome that reluctance. The trifecta of scifi from last season didn't have consistently good writing. Each show may have had its moments, but they were just that: moments. And you can't expect a fledgeling audience to sit around waiting for bits and pieces of "good"- that's something that's true for ANY show, regardless of genre; if you can't hook the audience, they won't wait to see you get better... and the Suits won't give you the chance.

As for Invasion... I only watched the first ep and all I saw was cliche upon cliche upon cliche with NOTHING to balance it out, nothing to make it unique, nothing to make me think that there would be anything OTHER than cliches.

Sure, you can get away with writing cliched stuff and making it sell, but you have to take the material and make it your own. Invasion didn't do that, IMO, and they didn't make it interesting enough for me to stick around to see what was going to happen. I could probably tell you what happened without ever having seen more than the first ep just because it was all so terribly, unoriginally, and unwaveringly cliched. It may have had other failings, as well, but the lack of originality is what killed it for me. And that little girl annoyed the holy hell out of me.