PDA

View Full Version : The Jack O'Neill/Daniel Jackson slash and friendship thread



Pages : [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

ecm101
May 5th, 2004, 09:38 PM
Time to prose the question that start me in the gateworld rooms


What is Jack's and Daniel's feels toward each other?
are they really best of freinds; or has Daniel going and coming back hurt the reletionship?

It is what it is. I think this Reletionship was the most important in the show and gave it the best feel. Is Ship distroying these now, Or is it still there?
what do you think?

Madeleine
May 5th, 2004, 11:24 PM
It's still there. Just look at LC1, Daniel and Jack in front of the ancients' repository. Or Daniel just waltzing into Jack's house. Or in Fall Out, the way they have such a link that even though they are saying opposite things they have identical gestures.

It's harder to spot than it used to be. Ditto the Jack/Teal'c friendship. There does seem to be a near ban on Jack having a conversation with anyone who isn't Sam or an OC in the middle-to-late seventh season. Pity. But what J/D and J/T I *do* get, I still enjoy as much as I ever did.

Dani347
May 6th, 2004, 07:50 AM
I don't enjoy it as much. Sometimes I wonder if Jack even remembers Daniel. "Who? Why is this guy tagging along." Occasionally they throw a crumb, but it doesn't negate the overwhelming amount of disinterest I've seen from Jack. And, LC was a great disappointment. It seemed he gave a heartfelt farewell to everyone except Daniel. And, no, leaning back and saying "I know" isn't heartfelt to me. Actually, no one can ever convince me that there was any good reason for Jack not to have shown more caring in that episode, when he showed it for his other teammates. NEVER. But, of course, you're free to try.

Since this thread is about Jack and Daniel I'm not going to spend much time focusing on the others unless it directly effects the J/D relationship. To not see a scene of Jack asking Daniel if he was okay in Evolution2, to not see a hug (even if it had happened after they got out of immediate danger) just made me really dislike that part, although I loved the Daniel scenes. And, I don't see asking the question (for someone who actually had been tortured) as making Daniel seem weak, or anything like that. It would have made Jack seem like he really cared for Daniel as friend.

I just haven't seen that warmth and caring that they had in the early seasons. And, it's not enough to say things change. That doesn't make it better. Some changes are bad, and for me, this change is just terrible. The friendship hasn't evolved. It's devolved.

And, Daniel didn't get his share of affection because he got a lot back when Stargate was good, and now he doesn't need anymore. These things should never stop. If they had written it where they actually showed that Jack was feeling cautious because he was scared of losing Daniel, that would be a reason. But, to me, they haven't. To me, any reason anyone gives is all fans trying to make sense of something that the writers have just dropped. With no reason whatsoever.

Jack and Daniel friendship, where are you?

Otis
May 6th, 2004, 08:29 AM
I believe that it's still there. The fact that RDA has chosen to have less airtime has cut into many of the scenes that could have been written. Season 7 was used for character development of the other 3 stars and therefore left a lot to be desired in the Jack and Daniel dialogues. The two actors have a great chemistry together.

spg_1983
May 6th, 2004, 08:35 AM
I don't enjoy it as much. Sometimes I wonder if Jack even remembers Daniel. "Who? Why is this guy tagging along." Occasionally they throw a crumb, but it doesn't negate the overwhelming amount of disinterest I've seen from Jack. And, LC was a great disappointment. It seemed he gave a heartfelt farewell to everyone except Daniel. And, no, leaning back and saying "I know" isn't heartfelt to me. Actually, no one can ever convince me that there was any good reason for Jack not to have shown more caring in that episode, when he showed it for his other teammates. NEVER. But, of course, you're free to try.

Since this thread is about Jack and Daniel I'm not going to spend much time focusing on the others unless it directly effects the J/D relationship. To not see a scene of Jack asking Daniel if he was okay in Evolution2, to not see a hug (even if it had happened after they got out of immediate danger) just made me really dislike that part, although I loved the Daniel scenes. And, I don't see asking the question (for someone who actually had been tortured) as making Daniel seem weak, or anything like that. It would have made Jack seem like he really cared for Daniel as friend.

I just haven't seen that warmth and caring that they had in the early seasons. And, it's not enough to say things change. That doesn't make it better. Some changes are bad, and for me, this change is just terrible. The friendship hasn't evolved. It's devolved.

And, Daniel didn't get his share of affection because he got a lot back when Stargate was good, and now he doesn't need anymore. These things should never stop. If they had written it where they actually showed that Jack was feeling cautious because he was scared of losing Daniel, that would be a reason. But, to me, they haven't. To me, any reason anyone gives is all fans trying to make sense of something that the writers have just dropped. With no reason whatsoever.

Jack and Daniel friendship, where are you?

The "I know" was the jack daniel moment! they are such good friends, have such a deep bond thats all they need! think of all the times they have seen each other almost die, and actually die!! Think of "Meridian" think of "Abyss" jack is closer with daniel than any of the others and doesnt need a showy, touchy feely moment with daniel because they are beyond that point. they know how each other feel and all they need is that simple "I know" to acknowledge it.

Dani347
May 6th, 2004, 12:33 PM
I disagree completely. Because they were close friends before and they did show it, so to say they don't need to now doesn't make sense. If they don't need to now, they didn't need to before. And, yet, lo and behold, they did.

I suppose the next argument will be that Jack isn't close with Teal'c, because he hugged him. I mean that only seems logical, since Jack not showing affection is some huge proof that he is close, than Jack showing affection to someone must mean that he's not close. Of course, that's stupid.

I saw Jack looking bored and like he couldn't be bothered when he said "I know." If that's some sign of them being so close, I'd rather he step back and be as close as he is with Sam or Teal'c. The "I know" was pathetic. IMO.

I have never (except when it comes to Jack and Daniel) seen the argument that close friends don't need to show affection. That when they show affection to every other freaking person but one person it's a sign of how so much more closer they are to the person they aren't showing the friendship and affection to. It doesn't add up. Or, if Jack never speaks to Daniel again, that means that he and Daniel are practically soulmates, since the less affection he shows, the more we're supposed to believe he cares? Hmm, if Jack pulls a gun on Daniel (without being under the influence of something) I suppose we should scream for them to get a room.

And, tv is a visual medium. Which means that tv is supposed to show things. We're not supposed to have to just believe they're so close, or that they're still close without seeing it.

And, why is it that when someone says they haven't seen friendship between Jack and Daniel usually have someone say they don't need to be all touchy feely? Why is it automatically assumed that that's the only thing people want?

And, please, don't anybody twist my words around to say that I don't want Jack to show affection to Teal'c or Sam, because if you read, you'll see I never said that.

And, thinking of Abyss, Jack showed a freaking lot more closeness to Daniel than he showed all of season 7. And, they didn't touch, so it's not all about touching. Or, what about One False Step? They never actually got the words out in the apology scene, and I saw more affection. It's not just them touching that makes me see closeness. And, that wasn't even as bad a situation as they're in at the end of LC. So, I don't buy that every time Jack doesn't show some caring (and there is a lot of room between being touchy feely and showing total disinterest) it's because he's just sooo close to Daniel. Because I've seen him show it, and there's no reason why he shouldn't still. And, like I've said before, if any of my friends want to get that kind of "closeness" :rolleyes: with me, don't bother.

If no one on the team ever shows caring (for the viewers to see) I wonder how many posts will be praising just how close the whole team is.

And, so what if they've seen each other die or almost die? People are supposed to get used to it? It's supposed to be old hat? My, my, my.

No thanks. I stick to my belief that a caring friendship on television is one you see played out.


Season 7 was used for character development of the other 3 stars

Do you mean 2 stars? Sam and Teal'c? Or another character also? And, I saw development for them in the early seasons, and they managed to have Jack act like Daniel kind of matters. It's not just that there are scenes without Jack and Daniel together, but in the scenes where he's with him I don't see that he cares, or where he should be fighting hell or high water because Daniel needs him, he isn't.

darklilac
May 6th, 2004, 01:46 PM
I agree with everything Dani said.

However I totally disagree wkth stunf like |hms:
The "I know&$was(the jack daniel moment) they are such good friends, have such a deep`bond thets all they negd1
MTlks is the kiod(of garbage we hed to suffår sioce¤season 7 stárted.
DoaTPTB really think we're`stupid, RDa spent$all his time0playing the Jack'Sam anä*for TPTB the Jack and Danmel0relctionship is a problem for tèe Jack&Simo
So they cut`all¤the Jack end Daniel scenes.
I'm syck`and tired of reading excuses for this.

Dani347
May 7th, 2004, 11:42 AM
My biggest problem with the whole "they're such good friends excuse they never ever ever ever ever ever ever have to show it again" is that it gives everyone on the show an excuse to be lazy. Don't show them exchanging smiles (see, it's not all about touchy feely)? It's because they're so close they don't need to. When a situation warrants a hug, or a pat on the arm, and there isn't one? They don't need to. It lets tptb and the actors coast on the first three seasons. So, even if they never do anything, we're supposed to just assume based on what happened before, when they had absolutely no freaking problem showing it, and it wasn't because they weren't as close as they are now. (Sorry, the whole no affection because they're so close just makes no sense to me) It also doesn't wash because even though I never had any doubt that Jack cared for Sam as her CO and friend, they're still letting that show (well, they've subverted it to ship).

If someone had just started watching the show in season 7, without any prior knowledge of the characters, would they be able to tell that Jack and Daniel have this incredibly close friendship that apparently manifests itself through disinterest and boredom? If you saw a man hug one team mate, and then later touch him tenderly on the cheek, and call another one a national or universal treasure, and later have his eyes wide open, staring at her, and saying with a voice that is just spilling over with conviction that he trusts her (and than says I know, but he actually looks at her while he's doing it), and then you saw him tell the last teammate just "I know" leaning back, eyes shut, no look of trust or anything, you'd honestly think, "Wow, he really cares for that guy so much more than he cares for the others."?

At the very miniscule least, Jack should have been looking at Daniel. We should have seen the trust or faith in his eyes. Not because Daniel needed it (but, I'm not ashamed to say I needed it) but because as his friend, he shouldn't have been able to help it.

Shipperahoy
May 7th, 2004, 12:31 PM
I do think that the Jack/Daniel friendship has changed for season 7. But I sort of chalked it up to being ascended having changed Daniel on some level and the holes in his memory. And that was fine for the first half of the season but I kept expecting it to come back at least somewhat. And there were flashes of the old familiar back and forth throughout the season. The "penis" thing in Birthrite cracked me up. And I thought it was very touching how Jack sat outside the room watching the whole time in Lifeboat. And I think they were great together in Fallout when they were having talks with the Kelownans or whatever the heck they call themselves. But it's not near as much as it was in previous seasons. But like I said I can see how with Daniel being gone a year could change the group dynamics somewhat. I'm disapointed but I'm still optimistic for next season.

But the Lost City thing doesn't bug me near as much as other people. I liked the exchange between them on the ship. It didn't feel stilted or glacial to me at all. When Daniel said he would have done it and Jack said he knew that conveyed a lot to me. And that Jack trusted Daniel to fix it. It wasn't as emotional as Jack and Teal'cs moment but it said a lot to me about the trust between them. But that's just me.

Dani347
May 7th, 2004, 12:44 PM
But like I said I can see how with Daniel being gone a year could change the group dynamics somewhat.

You know, if I felt that they were trying to convey that, it would have been better. There's been fanfics where Jack's distance is explained because he feels wary because he lost Daniel. But, to me, the show isn't showing any of it. Fanfics are doing a much better job of dealing with it. And, when fanfics are by and large better than the show, you've got a problem. When more and more people are writing fanfics not because they want to explore things that weren't on the show, but they want to fix things, there's something wrong. Going with one argument, the show is coasting on the earlier seasons and expecting people to be satisfied with that. (nope, not buying) Or, they have largely dropped the friendship with a few small incidents so that anytime someone says that Jack doesn't act like he cares, these small things can be brought up as evidence that it's just as wonderful as it was before, and what are those people complaining about?

I thought the first half of the season was much better. Enemy Mine was probably the best episode between them, and Jack was absent for most of it. So, I also don't buy that RDA's schedule is the sole cause. But, it seemed the more situations would seem to pretty much beg for some deep friendship moments, that's when they pulled as far back as Pluto wrt it. If they can get away with just some banter, hey they'll toss a little bit in (Birthright was also nice, and interestingly CJ wrote it. He seems to know how to write for everyone). But, real care and concern? They don't seem to even bother trying to show why it's not there. It's like it's not at all important.

shelsfc
May 9th, 2004, 01:58 PM
I do think their friendship is still there, we just don't see it as much. Like in Lost City, the "I know" bit, it was a nice moment for them, but it wasn't as much as I would have liked to see between them. I know it has alot to do with RDA's schedule, but it's true that a lot more of his time is spent on ship. Don't get me wrong, I am a shipper, and I love the ship we got towards the end of the series, but Jack & Daniel's friendship has always been my favourite thing about the show and I really hope more time can be spent looking at that. I think MS said there will be a lot of banter between them in New Order, so I'm looking forward to that! :)


I'm sorry if this post is after coming up about 20 times, but I'm having a problem posting & getting to other threads. It keeps saying "Database Error, there seems to be a slight problem with the database", and to click refresh, but it's not working.

epiphany
May 9th, 2004, 06:18 PM
But what I wish they'd realize is that Jack and Daniel's friendship is not just "banter", it was warmth and caring as well mixed in with that verbal(and sometimes non-verbal) back and forth.

ecm101
May 9th, 2004, 07:43 PM
Thier used to be Whole ep on the Jack And Daniel Friendship, now it is not even part of the overall chemisty of the show(not in the writing), but it is still there between RDA and MS when they are togather(most of the time)
the last Real Jack and Daniel frienship show was Abyss. Evolution pt2 was suprosed to be but it just fell short, I thougt it had a good chance of being a something like Need; only a physical insteed of psychological way.

maboroshi
May 10th, 2004, 12:05 PM
Do TPTB really think we're stupid, RDA spent all his time playing the Jack&Sam and for TPTB the Jack and Daniel relationship is a problem for the Jack&Sam.
So they cut all the Jack and Daniel scenes.


They actually DID cut the Jack and Daniel scene... I have a copy of the script. I'll try to dig it up and post the original Jack/Daniel dialogue.

I was plenty surprised when I watched the show and didn't see the 'farewell' scene between J/D, small though it was. Especially since Sam and Teal'c got wonderful goodbye scenes - Teal'c's especially. That was a thing of beauty.

That scene cut was pretty much Mr. Straw for me... o_O

angsty_otaku
May 10th, 2004, 12:39 PM
i think their friendship is something that though has been toned down quite a lot in the past season still exists. it's not as "up front" and done to the effect of the jack/teal'c and especially the jack/sam friendship but it's there. notice how comfortable daniel was in jack's home and in evolution part II...basically the whole jack daniel parts...

shelsfc
May 10th, 2004, 02:07 PM
But what I wish they'd realize is that Jack and Daniel's friendship is not just "banter", it was warmth and caring as well mixed in with that verbal(and sometimes non-verbal) back and forth.

I do agree with that. It would be great to see more episodes like Abyss where we can really see how much they do care about each other, and the genuine strength of their friendship, but if we don't, it is at least good to have some of that banter there, I have to admit I do enjoy it!

epiphany
May 10th, 2004, 05:46 PM
They actually DID cut the Jack and Daniel scene... I have a copy of the script. I'll try to dig it up and post the original Jack/Daniel dialogue.

I was plenty surprised when I watched the show and didn't see the 'farewell' scene between J/D, small though it was. Especially since Sam and Teal'c got wonderful goodbye scenes - Teal'c's especially. That was a thing of beauty.

That scene cut was pretty much Mr. Straw for me... o_O

Oh please do, please do. I so want to see it. You mean there was a Jack and Daniel scene in the script and they cut it out. ::mumbles unpublishable thoughts:: For some reason, with this crew, it doesn't surprise me in the slightest.

Apparently, in Fall-Out(from DVD commentary), during the corridor scene, near the end where Daniel's upset about the way the negotiations have been going and Jack turns to Daniel, puts his hands on shoulders and tells him he'll take care of it? Well, apparently how that came about was Martin Wood told RDA to do something bigger with his hands(he was just fiddling with his sleeve or something and Martin wanted more movement), so RDA did shoulder thing and as he was walking away he made the comment that he bet they'd never use it in the final cut. :D (of course the meant they had to use it, just to prove him wrong ;) )

Makes one wonder what else they've been cutting that RDA would actually comment on it.

auralan
May 10th, 2004, 05:53 PM
I think they're good friends, but maybe not best friends anymore. Jack and Teal'c seemed to become closer friends when Daniel was ascended and that relationship seems on par with Jack and Daniel's friendship now. They're different kinds of friendships, but I see them as equally important to Jack.

As for the ship issue, I don't really see it effecting or diminishing the friendships amongst the team, but I realize others have wildly divergent views on the issue.

Dani347
May 10th, 2004, 06:52 PM
Oh please do, please do. I so want to see it. You mean there was a Jack and Daniel scene in the script and they cut it out. ::mumbles unpublishable thoughts:: For some reason, with this crew, it doesn't surprise me in the slightest.

Apparently, in Fall-Out(from DVD commentary), during the corridor scene, near the end where Daniel's upset about the way the negotiations have been going and Jack turns to Daniel, puts his hands on shoulders and tells him he'll take care of it? Well, apparently how that came about was Martin Wood told RDA to do something bigger with his hands(he was just fiddling with his sleeve or something and Martin wanted more movement), so RDA did shoulder thing and as he was walking away he made the comment that he bet they'd never use it in the final cut. :D (of course the meant they had to use it, just to prove him wrong ;) )

Makes one wonder what else they've been cutting that RDA would actually comment on it.

See, that (among a myriad of other things) makes me furious. First, they had to cut out a full on scene (no small, oh they're friends so we don't have to show it type hoohah) with Daniel. Just Daniel. They had something, and they couldn't use it? And, interesting that it's specifically the Daniel scene.

And, then, just in case I possibly could believe it wasn't on purpose (similar to believing that donkeys fly in golden sequined tutus) we have RDA himself knowing that they cut out J/D scenes and specifically points it out. Didn't they want to cut the scene with Jack cleaning his gun and grieving over Daniel after Meridian? And only left it in because the scene ran short and they had to use it?

So, given all of this, I don't buy that they're trying to establish how close Jack and Daniel are by the extremely unorthodox and frankly stupid method of not showing them act as friends. I don't buy that their hands are tied because of RDA's reduced schedule. No, I think they're doing everything in their power to diminish the friendship. And, I won't even begin to try to speculate on why, because it would be nothing but full out insults on the writers. Because there's no actual logical reason for doing so.

maboroshi
May 11th, 2004, 06:08 PM
Oh please do, please do. I so want to see it. You mean there was a Jack and Daniel scene in the script and they cut it out. ::mumbles unpublishable thoughts:: For some reason, with this crew, it doesn't surprise me in the slightest.

Okay, I've dug up the script - but because of the large unfriendly "NO PORTION OF THIS SCRIPT MAY BE YADDA YADDA'D" IN ANY MEDIUM YADDA" paragraph on the front, I'll refrain from quoting here. (Don't want to get Gateworld in doody.) PM me and I'll give you the exact dialogue.

On looking it over again, I see they've just cut three lines of dialogue and reaction shots from J and D... but those lines and those looks were to include worlds of meaning... They follow the "I know" line.

I can't see where you could justify cutting this character interaction scene on the basis of time - it wouldn't have taken more than a few seconds. But it was those seconds that were needed to round out O'Neill's goodbyes to the ENTIRE team.

I'm not going to bother speculating why they did it - we'll never know for certain at this point. But it couldn't hurt to ask Joe M about it if someone's going to Gatecon.

epiphany
May 11th, 2004, 06:25 PM
Do we really need speculate? It would be pointless to ask Joe M, he'll just come up with the "oh we ran short of time" excuse as usual. They couldn't have trimmed bits of battle sequences or one or two seconds here and there of them walking someplace, nooooOO.

They just had to cut Daniel's scene with Jack, while his teammates had them. They couldn't have cut out Carter's ridiculous attempt to yet again talk about her feelings with Jack(as if once in Part 1 weren't enough and this time was just after she's taken over command, how very professional ::eyerolls:: ) They couldn't have trimmed a few seconds here and a few seconds there of them walking places or shooting at those wonderfully ineffectual "supersoldiers" or anything really important like that.

PS: I've PM'd you but you could have PM'd me first. ;)

Dani347
May 11th, 2004, 07:42 PM
I'm trying to think of some way they could have salvaged the scene they did have. Played the way it was was unsatisfactory. (I'm being generous here) But, how's about this?

First, Jack and Daniel are sitting closer. They don't have to be neck and neck, but just a little closer. Daniel starts to say, "You know I would have...." Jack, because he's actually aware and alert while Daniel is talking, interrupts him by laying a hand on his arm (and, do not tell me that would be too touchy feely, or that they're so close that not only don't they need to talk, but any form of touch is verboten as well) and he looks at Daniel and says, "I know," like he meant it.

I mean, not only did they cut a scene, but what little they had left, the only way you'd pick up that they were friends was if you had been watching the show from before and knew they had been.

keshou
May 11th, 2004, 07:50 PM
First, Jack and Daniel are sitting closer. They don't have to be neck and neck, but just a little closer. Daniel starts to say, "You know I would have...." Jack, because he's actually aware and alert while Daniel is talking, interrupts him by laying a hand on his arm (and, do not tell me that would be too touchy feely, or that they're so close that not only don't they need to talk, but any form of touch is verboten as well) and he looks at Daniel and says, "I know," like he meant it.

I've always thought you could have kept the scene as written (at least written as we saw it) and it would have had much more impact if the actors had played it differently. If Jack had just looked Daniel in the eye, even from across the room, and said "I know" with a little intensity, it wouldn't have been as flat. As it was it just ended up being a scene that didn't move the story along *or* reveal any emotional connection between the characters. It was okay, just could have been better.

I did thing the banter scenes and the Jack/Daniel scenes on the planet in Lost City I were quite good.

epiphany
May 11th, 2004, 08:13 PM
A big part of the problem was Jack's lackluster response. He seems annoyed and half asleep, like he just doesn't give a darn and wants him to shut up. Meanwhile everyone else gets these heartfelt scenes.

I know those across the rooms things CAN work. Has anyone watched the Horatio Hornblower movies on A & E? It's set in the Royal Navy, late 18th century. Horatio Hornblower and Archie Kennedy are best friends--they were midshipman together, they have been serving as Lieutenants together on the same ship. In the sixth movie called "Retribution", Archie makes a great sacrifice for Horatio. Something which, in Horatio's mind, was an even bigger sacrifice than death itself. Archie gives up his "good name" in a tribunal which was looking to use Horatio as a scapegoat to hang blame on. Horatio walks in just after Archie has done it and they look at each other from across the room--there is such a connection there. Even though the director chose to use some "slo-mo" photography, it still worked really well.

I think Rick and Michael are fine enough actors to pull something like that off. In fact we've seen them communicate alot non-verbally before, mostly in earlier seasons. But they have to be blocked in the scenes properly to do it and the directors have to give them the okay to do it. If they believe things like that are just going to be cut anyway, why should they bother to do them?

Liebestraume
May 11th, 2004, 08:40 PM
... I think this Reletionship was the most important in the show and gave it the best feel. ......
Okay, I'll bite and ask the stupid (and, perhaps, anathema) question: is this relationship still the most important on the show? And if so, why? (Knowing that we each have our own preference, I haste to add that I am merely asking the question, not to suggest what the answer should or shouldn't be.)

Some people said up-thread that, if you were to come to the show amid S7, you wouldn't have known J/D were much closer; I agree with that. Speaking for myself (who had started watching only a few months ago), I thought the most prominent dynamic had been that between the team and each relationship was unique in its own way.

Having watched the original motion picture, I understand that J/D was the only pairing back then. I can see it being the predominant one, too, in the early seasons. However, the series has a somewhat different tone from the movie and all relationships have evolved on the show. Could it be possible that now no one relationship is supposed to be more important than another -- they are all merely different?

Dani347
May 11th, 2004, 09:52 PM
For myself, if I had just come in to the show this season, not only wouldn't I have known that Jack and Daniel used to be close, but I wouldn't have known that Jack cared one bit about Daniel. Watching it, without any prior knowledge, I would have thought that Jack cared about Sam, Teal'c, Hammond, Janet, the rest of the SGC, Jacob, Pete, Thor, the Supersoldiers, and the nonexistant lint on his spotless uniform about 100 X more than he cared for Daniel. And, you (general you) may disagree, but that's how I see it, and I don't see this as a natural evolution, and certainly not an acceptable one. It's a devolution, if that's a word.


The thing is, I never believed that Jack cared so much about Daniel that he didn't have any time or concern to spare for Sam or Teal'c. For me, while it may not seem possible, it was for Jack and Daniel to be best friends and still have Jack be very close to Sam and Teal'c and feel like a family. So, I never thought it was necessary for Sam and Teal'c to "get their turn" because I never felt they had been neglected. I never thought that "now we have to make things fairer" because it never had been unfair to me. And, if I had thought that they needed to change things, I think they've dropped Daniel down way farther than is justifiable.

It's not just a matter of not showing them as best friends. Although since I still felt that way for three years of the show, which was after the movie) and also felt a strong connection in Abyss, which was season 6, I just don't buy that now it's just changed. I don't think change is good just for the sake of change. You'd better give me a good reason why it's like this. And, I mean, I want the show to show it. No matter how sensible a fan's interpretation (ex: Jack's scared of losing Daniel again, and that makes him distant) unless I see some hint of it on the show, it doesn't work for me. The problem, imo, is not showing that Daniel is even equal in Jack's affections to anybody. It can't be a coincidence that RDA felt they would cut the scene in Fallout.

epiphany
May 11th, 2004, 10:54 PM
Liebestraum it might be easier to buy that point of view IF they'd actually made it an arc on the show. Instead it was there one season(or three actually), gone the next, never to return.

This isn't evolution. Evolution would be if Teal'c and Sam were "brought along" to be included in the same sort of bond. Instead Teal'c and Sam were brought in and Daniel was shoved out.

Jack has shown more concern for people who were practically strangers than he does for Daniel lately. Jack has shown more interest in people who were practically strangers than he has in Daniel. Daniel's gone from his closest friend, the guy he'd open up to when no one else could get him to--to the guy he might, just might, show a little concern for if he got pushed out of moving car. And that's only if he wasn't in a hurry to get home in time to watch the hockey game.

Daniel gets kidnapped, tortured, starved, etc, etc--Jack mosey's through the jungle like he's on a day trip with an annoying co-worker in Burke. The closest thing to "concern" is a brusque "Can you walk on it?". He could have been looking for anyone, just a job. Nothing indicated he had a closer relationship than that, that this was a teammate of many years.

Jack's being taken over by Ancient's knowledge(and while a slightly more extensive scene was written) what was filmed was Jack not even bothering to open his eyes all the way when Daniel is talking to him, instead seeming to barely listen to him and barely bother to respond in an annoyed tone of voice. Of course he can take time to have "moments" with everone else but not Daniel.

Even when he does something that could possibly be viewed as showing friendly concern they are always very quick to make sure it is couched in terms of "duty". Jack had to go to Central America--because that was the only way Burke would help Daniel and Dr. Lee, Jack had to download the Ancient's repository, because Daniel was the only one who could translate it. They are simply practical decisions you. I don't mind that those practical aspects are there, I even think it is good that they are there as I wouldn't want Jack's judgement to seem clouded, but decisions can be practical while the actions themselves involve an emotional aspect as well.

Someone could be forgiven for thinking Jack hated the guy at this point. But they are supposed to be friends? It's ridiculous. It's not "telepathic", it's not showing what deep connection they really have. Friends don't treat each other that way. They may ocassionally or they may have a bad day. But friends don't act that way--my brother has lots of friends, they don't act that way. I know lots of guys with guy friends, they don't act that way. They talk, they smile, they laugh, they even occasionally listen to each other ;) --oh it may be all properly "guyish" but by god, they even touch each other once in a while. Arm around a should, pat on the back, etc. Dare I speak it...I've even seen men....::looks around nervously, whispers:: hug. Yes shocking as it may seem, I've seen men hug, straight men.

Now I personally don't care about "hugs"(in fact I think some people get a little hung up on that idea, unless the situation really calls for it(I think Need called for it for ex.) I think it would be overboard), that level of physical connection doesn't matter to me. I'm not a big hugger of my friends myself and I'm a girl.

But the people who make the show routinely keep Jack and Daniel half way across rooms from each other, sticking other characters in between them, etc, etc, etc. It almost seems like they go out of their way to make sure Jack and Daniel don't get too close to each other, don't say too much to each other(esp. anything of a personal or sympathetic nature, it all must be very surface level), don't come into eye contact, etc.

LOL! I mean what are they afraid of? That their videostock will spontaneously combust? Their cameras explode? The sky will fall? Jack and Daniel were friends and acted like it regularly for three full seasons--and somehow their filming equipment survived and the sky did not, in fact, fall. I really don't think they have too much to worry about.

maboroshi
May 12th, 2004, 07:28 AM
Could it be possible that now no one relationship is supposed to be more important than another -- they are all merely different?

Nope, it's not possible that no one relationship is supposed to be more important than another... because that implies they're all equal. Au contraire, mon frere...

One relationship IS getting far more air time/importance/dialogue in comparison to the two others, especially when taking into consideration that they *cut short* the single farewell scene between Jack/Daniel in Lost City.

Can you guess what relationship has superseded all others? Three guesses, first two don't count.

I'll wait...

earck
May 12th, 2004, 09:21 AM
I do truly miss the episodes with big Jack/Daniel themes. That is probably the biggest disapointment for me with RDA's reduced schedule. However I have noticed this becasue I read of his reduced schedule, i don't think i would have noticed it otherwise. Perhaps a negative aspect of Gateworld.

Daniel and Jack are great freinds, if they had more time I'm sure they would more scenes with the two characters. I think they need a season 8 ep to give us our fix of Jack/Daniel.

Dani347
May 12th, 2004, 09:48 AM
if they had more time I'm sure they would more scenes with the two characters.

Nope, don't buy the time thing either. First, it's not just the quantity of scenes, but the quality that's lacking. And, in at least one episode (Enemy Mine) Jack was only in the first part of the episode, and I thought it was the best friendship moment of the season. So, they don't need a lot of time. They just need to utilize his screentime better and not cut scenes, which seem to be mainly J/D scenes. And, to tell RDA to freaking emote!

Also, they have plenty of time to emphasize one other relationship.

Shipperahoy
May 12th, 2004, 09:52 AM
For me it just seems that the writers haven't learned how to work with RDA's reduced schedule. They seem to be only able to focus on one Jack relationship at a time and the latter half of season 7 seemed to be the Jack/Sam relationship and the Jack/Daniel and Jack/Teal'c relationships seemed to fall by the wayside. I truly believe that with some creativity they could find a way to show all of the inter-team relationships even with RDA's reduced schedule.

Madeleine
May 12th, 2004, 10:34 AM
For me it just seems that the writers haven't learned how to work with RDA's reduced schedule. They seem to be only able to focus on one Jack relationship at a time and the latter half of season 7 seemed to be the Jack/Sam relationship and the Jack/Daniel and Jack/Teal'c relationships seemed to fall by the wayside. I truly believe that with some creativity they could find a way to show all of the inter-team relationships even with RDA's reduced schedule.

ITA. They could have showed more Jack and Daniel or Jack and Teal'c in so many ways. Teal'c and Jack could have had a Proper Conversation during Death Knell. Jack could have been a little bit enthusiastic about going to the jungle to rescue Daniel. Jack could have asked how Daniel was after witnessing a close friend's sudden death, or Daniel gone to see how Jack was recovering. Jack and Teal'c could have been spotted leaving the weights room together, talking.

It wouldn't take long in any of those cases, only a few seconds perhaps, to inject some friendship. The D/S chat over 'Signs' lasted for all of three lines, and yet it's one of the moments everyone remembers.

ecm101
May 12th, 2004, 10:41 AM
Okay, I'll bite and ask the stupid (and, perhaps, anathema) question: is this relationship still the most important on the show? And if so, why? (Knowing that we each have our own preference, I haste to add that I am merely asking the question, not to suggest what the answer should or shouldn't be.)


I think that the Jack anbd Daniel reletionship was the basis for the show, and the whole team feel had to be built on Jack the military and Daniel the morality. And how these two people could work togather and be friends(and save the world...)
Jack has go to bat for Daniel many times early on. Remember in the ending arc of S1 where Jack and the team followed Daniel's plan to stop Apothsis. And they did it on just Daniels word. I fell that Daniel has done many things not just for the Team but or to find his wife(her son stop the gould save the planet...) but for jack. And Jack has deffred to Daniel's judgement on many occaisons

Shipperahoy
May 12th, 2004, 10:48 AM
This may be a dumb question but what does ITA stand for?

Dani347
May 12th, 2004, 01:09 PM
ITA: I totally agree

DJFavorite
May 12th, 2004, 01:16 PM
I'm one of those who miss the Jack and Daniel interaction. I think TPTB could have done better. Because the have lost focus on that relationship (and Jack and Teal'c, Daniel and Sam, Teal'c and Sam, Daniel and Teal'c) they have missed out on many an opportunity to make the storylines go that one step further.

I hope that this is remedied in Season 8.

shelsfc
May 12th, 2004, 01:50 PM
Okay, I'll bite and ask the stupid (and, perhaps, anathema) question: is this relationship still the most important on the show? And if so, why? (Knowing that we each have our own preference, I haste to add that I am merely asking the question, not to suggest what the answer should or shouldn't be.)

I don't think it's the most important one, although it is my favourite one. IMO all of the relationships between the team are equally as important. It was more prominent in the earlier seasons, and I think maybe it was more important then, but since the relationships with Sam & Teal'c & Jonas developed, they became just as important. Unfortunately, that has left a lot less time for Jack & Daniel's relationship.

Liebestraume
May 15th, 2004, 02:15 PM
I think that the Jack anbd Daniel reletionship was the basis for the show, and the whole team feel had to be built on Jack the military and Daniel the morality. And how these two people could work togather and be friends(and save the world...)
To a certain degree, I agree with that. Drama thrives on conflict, and in Jack and Daniel one seemed to find the prefect antitheses of our usual morality debate: the realist vs. the idealist. This conflict, as well as its inherent parity, was the underlying theme of the original movie, and the fact that these two men, despite of their differences, worked so well together was a testament to their courage and determination.

Early season(s) of the series continued to build upon this theme. I have a hard time believing Jack and Daniel were already "best friends" at the onset of the series: they both had been (somewhat) loners from vastly different background when they first met (in the movie), and the original Abydos mission was too brief for a friendship to develop. That shared experience, however, had provided the genesis for a profound friendship, and their working together again in SGC gave that friendship the time and opportunity to grow.

However, the story has come a long way since its inception and neither Jack nor Daniel is the man he used to be. Instead of merely being the seasoned soldier he was once perceived, Jack showed his inate nobility, his willingness to bear the burden of his conscience for the greater good (Unnatrual Selection comes to mind). And Daniel seems to be more spiritual than intellectual these days. So I am not sure if the original premise holds as much as it once did.

Just my 2c.

Liebestraume
May 15th, 2004, 02:48 PM
Liebestraum it might be easier to buy that point of view IF they'd actually made it an arc on the show. Instead it was there one season(or three actually), gone the next, never to return.

This isn't evolution. ......
There is no denying the decreased screen time for Jack and/or Daniel or the near absence of overt affection; so, I take the point that a new viewer may not be able to appreciate the bond between these two characters. However, I think part of the reward of being a veteran viewer, or a new viewer who makes the effort to catch up, is to know the characters and what made them who they are.

By design, TV series are much more open-ended than movies. As the story evolves, so must the characters and, hence, their relationships. The early seasons were a time for Jack and Daniel to get to know one another, a time for their mutual respect as well as affection to take shape. IMHO the apparent lack of overt affection in later seasons does not diminish (what I perceive to be) the deepening bond between them. It came through the subtext of the show: two men from worlds apart became friends, and that friendship subsequently transformed them. As Jack and Daniel become increasingly complex individuals, their simple affection grows into a connection more spiritual, and the original premise of the show (i.e., the "realism vs. idealism" debate) encompasses even loftier concerns than before.

Whether or not the change was "for the better" is, of course, a matter of perspective. Nevertheless, TPTB perhaps could have handled the evolution with more care than they had. Maybe there should have been story arcs depicting a gradual transition. However, I cannot judge the wisdom in TPTB's creative decision, or if it was at all intentional. Now matter how the current state compares to what-the-show-was, it is at least engaging enough to not only "hook" me but also make me care about the characters; otherwise, I wouldn't have spent the time catching up on the previous seasons or lurking on this board. :)

Liebestraume
May 15th, 2004, 03:20 PM
IMO all of the relationships between the team are equally as important. It was more prominent in the earlier seasons, and I think maybe it was more important then, but since the relationships with Sam & Teal'c & Jonas developed, they became just as important. Unfortunately, that has left a lot less time for Jack & Daniel's relationship.
I agree with that to a great extend. Although I favor some characters over others, the dynamic of each pairing within SG-1 appeals to me in its unique way.

Much has been said about Jack's growing relationship with Teal'c or with Sam, and I think Daniel's relationships with others have also developed. I very much appreciate the natural affinity between Daniel and Sam as well as their emotional closeness. There is often humor in the "odd couple" pairing Daniel and Teal'c, yet what I like most is how their bond was forged. It wasn't a coincidence that Daniel had to be the one to destroy Thor's Hammer (which could have freed Sha're) or that Teal'c had to kill Amonet/Sha're. The difficult choices these men faced in order to save each other, and the subsequent mutual understanding, gave meaning to their friendship.

Given that the show now has a more ensemble feel than it did at the onset, it is difficult for each storyline to receive the amount of "air time" it merits. As some people mentioned up-thread, hopefully TPTB will give each storyline the amount of attention it deserves to make up in quality where quantity falls short.

epiphany
May 15th, 2004, 09:46 PM
and the original premise of the show (i.e., the "realism vs. idealism" debate) encompasses even loftier concerns than before.

Only in my opinion the show doesn't encompass loftier concerns than before. It had become more and more pedestrian. And I never saw the debate as realism vs. idealism. Just as different ways of going about trying to reach the same point. I don't think Daniel was unrealistic, I think he had a different focus. And I don't think Jack was necessarily any more realistic than Daniel was, he too had a different focus. You can't do Jack's job with Daniel's focus and you can't do Daniel's job with Jack's focus.

It used to feel epic but personal, which led it depth. Now it just feels....showy. It doesn't feel epic. The bad guys have become jokes for the most part. Anubis was such a cliched joke. This is largely because the personal connection of any of the characters both to each other and to what they are fighting has just diminished in favor of bigger explosions.

It's like they've become shallow puddles where they used to be deep wells. Their relationships are all surface level, they used to seem like family. Now they seem like a bunch of co-workers who don't dislike each other.

TPTB haven't given quantity or quality and I don't see why they would start in Season 8 when they can just coast as they have done the past couple seasons.

How this relates to the Jack and Daniel question is that the downplaying of that relationship is a big symptom of it.

Liebestraume
May 16th, 2004, 08:21 AM
And I never saw the debate as realism vs. idealism. Just as different ways of going about trying to reach the same point. I don't think Daniel was unrealistic, I think he had a different focus. And I don't think Jack was necessarily any more realistic than Daniel was, he too had a different focus.
There is no doubt that both Jack and Daniel have noble ambitions, yet what they consider "the right thing" may not always be the same. And, even when they have a common goal, their approaches often differ. What you call focus, I see it as an echo of the man's experience and fundamental philosophy. It's not so much that one character is or was more or less of a realist than the other, now or back-then; rather, it's the reflection they provoke in the viewer(s) that gives them significance. Granted, SG-1 does not pose "the great moral dilemma" all the time, but it does in small measure every now and then. I do not think that aspect of the show, or of the Jack/Daniel relationship, has changed, even if its focus and tone have shifted a little.

(As for the rest, the villains have been somewhat cliche-ish ever since Day One and the "good guys" never take themselves too seriously. Sure, there is ample room for improvement but that's a whole other topic I won't get into here.)

Dani347
May 16th, 2004, 08:49 AM
[COLOR=Purple]There is no denying the decreased screen time for Jack and/or Daniel or the near absence of overt affection; so, I take the point that a new viewer may not be able to appreciate the bond between these two characters. However, I think part of the reward of being a veteran viewer, or a new viewer who makes the effort to catch up, is to know the characters and what made them who they are.

But, I don't think veteran viewers should have to go with (imo) the total abscence of affection just because they know it used to be there. It seems like a pretty shoddy reward, to me. "Hey, we showed you they acted like friends before, you got your day in the sun, you don't need to see anymore. What Jack acts like he doesn't care about Daniel? Hate is too strong an emotion for what Jack apparently doesn't feel about Daniel? Yeah, but he showed affection to Daniel in episode 15 of season 2. So, you know they're friends. Oh, btw, we're also not going to show the inside of the SGC anymore. We showed it before, you've been watching the show, and you know it's there." I know that some people disagree with me about Jack not acting like he cares about Daniel, and that's fine, I'm just saying how I feel, and why I don't agree that tptb should drop something just because veteran fans know that's how it was before.




As Jack and Daniel become increasingly complex individuals, their simple affection grows into a connection more spiritual

Again, it's a matter of opinion, but I don't see any spiritual connection between them. I see no connection. And, I do think a new viewer should be able to see something if it's there. Because tptb would continue to show it. I doubt any new viewer would see a spiritual connection. Or any connection at all. I'm a long term viewer, and I don't see it. And, I never saw their affection as simple. It was a strong, deep affection. I don't think anyone watching the show now should go back to old episodes and be suddenly surprised that Jack and Daniel were pretty good friends. That isn't developing the friendship to a different plane. To me, that's just dropping an important aspect of the show. I want to see that Jack and Daniel are still friends. That, at the very least, Jack cares about Daniel as much as he cares about Sam and Teal'c. Because I'm not even seeing that. I don't want to say, "well, he used to care, so no matter what else I see now, no matter what I see to the contrary, just because it used to be that way, I'm just going to assume it still is that way."

Liebestraume
May 16th, 2004, 10:19 AM
But, I don't think veteran viewers should have to go with (imo) the total abscence of affection just because they know it used to be there. It seems like a pretty shoddy reward, to me.
Apologies if I didn't make myself clear. When I said
... part of the reward of being a veteran viewer, or a new viewer who makes the effort to catch up, is to know the characters and what made them who they are.
by no ways was I implying that anyone should have to go with the total abscence of affection. Simply that someone with the time, and perhaps emotional, investment in the show would understand the characters and discern their established bond, despite of its subtlety (or its apparent absence, depending on one's perspective). And, because of that, he/she would appreciate the nuance that other people could miss.


And, I never saw their affection as simple. It was a strong, deep affection.
It is strong and deep, but it started out as simple nonetheless. The closest analogy that I can come up with is this: there are friends who accept me because they love me, and there are the friends who understand me without me ever having to utter a word.


I don't think anyone watching the show now should go back to old episodes and be suddenly surprised that Jack and Daniel were pretty good friends. That isn't developing the friendship to a different plane. To me, that's just dropping an important aspect of the show. I want to see that Jack and Daniel are still friends. That, at the very least, Jack cares about Daniel as much as he cares about Sam and Teal'c.
I agree, and I doubt anyone paying attention would be suddenly surprised that Jack and Daniel have been pretty good friends. In fact, I do think Jack cares about Daniel as much as he does Sam and Teal'c; their relationships just have different natures.

Dani347
May 16th, 2004, 11:10 AM
discern their established bond, despite of its subtlety (or its apparent absence, depending on one's perspective). And, because of that, he/she would appreciate the nuance that other people could miss.


But, established bonds can change. Just because they were friends, doesn't mean that it's a given that they still are. Again, it's a matter of perspective, but for me, I don't see evidence that they're still friends, except for the occasional bone they throw at the viewers so that they can counter any complaints with, "But, didn't you see that scene in that episode? Stop being greedy!" I don't see any nuances of friendship. And, if they are going to show that Jack by and large (with those bones as the exceptions) cares about Daniel about as much as he cares about a piece of lint, they had better show me why it's like that. You show them being close friends, or you can bloody well show why they aren't. And, again, this is all opinion, and some people might see them being shown as friends. I don't. It'll always be one of the most disappointing and pointless things they've done to the show for me.


In fact, I do think Jack cares about Daniel as much as he does Sam and Teal'c; their relationships just have different natures.

And, we'll have to agree to disagree here.

dorien
May 16th, 2004, 01:20 PM
Well, this is a refreshing change from all the other relation"ship" topics. :)

The relationship between Jack and Daniel has never been the center or heart of the show for me. It's just one aspect of the overall team dynamics. If less of that aspect was seen in season 7, I attribute it to two main factors. First, as has been mentioned, is RDA's reduced work schedule. Second, the writers just didn't seem to know what to do with Daniel. Is he the same as before he ascended? Is he different and if so, how? How does this change the team dynamics? It seems they went with the "Daniel is Daniel" approach and never had a clear direction for changes or the lack thereof. Like much of the season, they were coasting on the strength of previous work. :(

SallyK
May 17th, 2004, 07:48 AM
I come down somewhere in the middle of these views. As far as I am concerned, Jack and Daniel's friendship is the most important relationship in the show. Their different strengths were what made SG-1 great and also were a great part of the appeal of the show.

I agree that their relationship has not been given the attention or screen time it should have had in Season 7, and I agree that part of that is due to the writers not knowing what to do with Daniel.(I really don't understand this, Daniel is a vital part of the show, if the writers didn't know what to do with him, then why didn't they get new ones who did?)

On the other hand, unlike Dani, I still see their friendship in the scenes they do have together. To me the chemistry between the actors and the fact that I know the characters are friends gives me a sub-text that shines through even the most apparently humdrum scenes.

I don't think it makes sense to argue that because they have been shown to be friends in the past, that the writers don't need to include friendship scenes for them again. On the other hand, for me it doesn't take much to make a friendship scene - so I am not nearly as disappointed with the Jack and Daniel scene in Lost City 2 as I know a lot of people are. I am not trying to make excuses for the writers - they have made a lot of wrong choices. Still having lived through episodes like the Other Side or Scorched Earth - where it appeared that the writers were trying to make it look as if they were no longer friends, I can put up with a bit of (at least semi-benign) neglect.

SallyK

darklilac
May 17th, 2004, 01:35 PM
[COLOR=Purple]Okay, I've dug up the script - but because of the large unfriendly "NO PORTION OF THIS SCRIPT MAY BE YADDA YADDA'D" IN ANY MEDIUM YADDA" paragraph on the front, I'll refrain from quoting here. (Don't want to get Gateworld in doody.) PM me and I'll give you the exact dialogue.

On looking it over again, I see they've just cut three lines of dialogue and reaction shots from J and D... but those lines and those looks were to include worlds of meaning... They follow the "I know" line.



I just saw this, no it can't be.
I had to stop and take a little time before posting or I could be banned for life.
They did it, just what a lot of fans like me speculated, they really cut the JD scenes.
And it was in the "I know" scene, a scene that was horrible to watch and that instead it was played totally different.
How can they be so cruel?
Don't they understand that they're driving fans away and that the show is suffering from this?
I will never be able to go to Gatecon but I will not shut up for sure, there are other ways to communicate with Mallozzi.

Dani347
May 17th, 2004, 02:10 PM
And, you'll (general you, tptb you - especially tptb) never be able to convince me that every other scene was sooo vital, that this scene was the only one they could cut, or that the scene would have played badly or any reason that anyone in the history of the world or the universe could conjure up.

Webbgirl
May 17th, 2004, 02:18 PM
And, you'll (general you, tptb you - especially tptb) never be able to convince me that every other scene was sooo vital, that this scene was the only one they could cut, or that the scene would have played badly or any reason that anyone in the history of the world or the universe could conjure up.

But Sam had to get her attempted declaration of love in. Yeah...that's so much more important.

::wanders off to look for sarcasm icon:: :rolleyes:

Madeleine
May 17th, 2004, 08:48 PM
Maboroshi was good enough to e-mail me the 'cut' bit. Two lines. Ten words from Daniel, one from Jack. Seven seconds to film, maybe ten if they spoke slowly and had a 'beat' or two between lines. It can't have been cut for time, but it would have made for a lovely scene. Oh well.

Shipperahoy
May 17th, 2004, 08:50 PM
Would you be so kind as to e-mail me the cut bit if you still have it? I'll give you my share of the magic beans (whenever I finally get them).

xoxoxoxo

Madeleine
May 17th, 2004, 09:29 PM
Maboroshi - are we allowed to forward your snippet on to friends (privately of course!) or would you prefer us not to? Entirely up to you, you're the one with the script :)

epiphany
May 17th, 2004, 09:36 PM
Maboroshi - are we allowed to forward your snippet on to friends (privately of course!) or would you prefer us not to? Entirely up to you, you're the one with the script :)

Actually I'd like to know that too. Maboroshi emailed it to me last week but I forgot to ask whether we could let other people see it and the last time I tried to PM it was returned as their mailbox was filled.

I agree. It would have been well less than half a minute of screen time to keep that part in and it would have made such a difference. Jack and Daniel are still sitting across a room but they could have pulled it off easily as something really deep and poignant.

keshou
May 18th, 2004, 04:22 AM
I read this stuff about the missing snippet in the "I know" scene and decided I didn't want to know what it was. I mean it's what's on screen that counts.

Now, I'm insanely curious to see what few words they cut out. Maboroshi would you mind sending it to me in a private message? :)

Thanks in advance! I won't disclose it to anyone else without your permission.

BTW, does anyone know if they filmed this as written and then trimmed the scene down? Or did the scene get changed before it was ever filmed?

GateGipsy
May 18th, 2004, 05:33 AM
I agree. It would have been well less than half a minute of screen time to keep that part in and it would have made such a difference. Jack and Daniel are still sitting across a room but they could have pulled it off easily as something really deep and poignant.
I've already re-engineered the episode in my head. Now in my universe it did happen :)

DJFavorite
May 18th, 2004, 05:35 AM
Actually I'd like to know that too. Maboroshi emailed it to me last week but I forgot to ask whether we could let other people see it and the last time I tried to PM it was returned as their mailbox was filled.
I'm one who tried to PM Maboroshi too. I'd love to see the quote.

keshou
May 18th, 2004, 06:15 AM
On the other hand, unlike Dani, I still see their friendship in the scenes they do have together. To me the chemistry between the actors and the fact that I know the characters are friends gives me a sub-text that shines through even the most apparently humdrum scenes.

SallyK

SallyK, I pretty much agree with your post, except for this bit about the chemistry.

I have to say that, for me, the chemistry has been hit or miss this season. Lost City was the best, enjoyed the Jack/Daniel friendship scenes in those two episodes. I thought the scene on the ship could have been better, but that was the only real disappointment.

In Fallen/Homecoming the Jack/Daniel stuff seemed flat, even the banter scenes. I thought the chemistry between Daniel/Teal'c, Daniel/Sam and Daniel/Jonas (never thought I'd say that ;) ) was better than Daniel/Jack in those two episodes. Some of the other episodes were a little better, particularly the stuff in Fallout. The elevator scene in Grace was just weird (to me).

So I agree that they're still friends but somehow the chemistry hasn't lifted the humdrum scenes the way it used to. :(

darklilac
May 18th, 2004, 06:17 AM
I always thought that they cut the scenes between Jack and Daniel to push the JS ship, because Jack had more chemistry with Teal'c and Daniel or something like that.
But in Lost City 2 Jack had a good farewell scene with Teal'c, so the relationship bewteen Jack and Sam can't be an issue.
It's not even the neverending excuse that there was no time, because this scene for LC2 was very brief.
Now I really can't find a reason.
I'm sure there is one and I'm scared to know what it is.

SallyK
May 18th, 2004, 09:02 AM
SallyK, I pretty much agree with your post, except for this bit about the chemistry.

I have to say that, for me, the chemistry has been hit or miss this season. Lost City was the best, enjoyed the Jack/Daniel friendship scenes in those two episodes. I thought the scene on the ship could have been better, but that was the only real disappointment.

In Fallen/Homecoming the Jack/Daniel stuff seemed flat, even the banter scenes. I thought the chemistry between Daniel/Teal'c, Daniel/Sam and Daniel/Jonas (never thought I'd say that ;) ) was better than Daniel/Jack in those two episodes. Some of the other episodes were a little better, particularly the stuff in Fallout. The elevator scene in Grace was just weird (to me).

So I agree that they're still friends but somehow the chemistry hasn't lifted the humdrum scenes the way it used to. :(

You do have a point about the Grace elevator scene - it is weird. On the other hand, the whole episode is one I try to think about as little as possible. After what that episode did to Sam's character, a little oddness between Jack and Daniel doesn't even make it on to my radar.

Otherwise I've been pretty happy with the scenes we've had, there just haven't been nearly enough of them.

SallyK

Omak
May 18th, 2004, 09:54 AM
There is a certain bond amongst military men from the older generations. It is the unspoken, but very strong. Jack has always struck me as that sort of person. For proof that the relationship matters, you need look no further than Abyss, when Jack / Daniel are talking about role reversal and what would be done if Jack had ascended.

ecm101
May 18th, 2004, 12:05 PM
I like to think of daniel and jack as brothers and that sometimes they just dont like to talk all that much... but in S7 they did not act(or shown to act) like it all the time.

darklilac
May 18th, 2004, 12:13 PM
.

I have to say that, for me, the chemistry has been hit or miss this season. In Fallen/Homecoming the Jack/Daniel stuff seemed flat, even the banter scenes. I thought the chemistry between Daniel/Teal'c, Daniel/Sam and Daniel/Jonas (never thought I'd say that ;) ) was better than Daniel/Jack in those two episodes. Some of the other episodes were a little better, particularly the stuff in Fallout. The elevator scene in Grace was just weird (to me).

So I agree that they're still friends but somehow the chemistry hasn't lifted the humdrum scenes the way it used to. :(

The chemistry is still there, the problem is that there were basically zero scenes between them in season 7.
The writers are trying to kill their friendship with no scenes or weird stuff(like the scene in Grace).
MS is doing his best from the little that they're given, and sometimes also RDA, but it's almost impossible to show a friendship with zero scenes.
And even with the few seconds they were given in season 7, there's still much more chemistry between Jack and Daniel than Jack/Sam or Teal'c/Jack.

bcmilco
May 18th, 2004, 12:41 PM
BTW, does anyone know if they filmed this as written and then trimmed the scene down? Or did the scene get changed before it was ever filmed?

Yes, I was wonder the same thing.

Acording to a Thread in the season 7 folder the Region 2 DVD for The Lost City is going to be played like they did with Children of The Gods, as one "movie".

While I asked, I haven't heard if that means they'll have any missing scenes like the Jack/Daniel one from CotG.

I'm trying not to get my hopes up just in case, but I could see them doing that, cutting it for time, but keeping it on the DVD.

maboroshi
May 18th, 2004, 06:33 PM
Apologies to everyone who's been PM'ing me and getting boinged - I was busy at work and didn't have time to keep up with the boards.

I'm going to fire off a bunch of messages to try to catch up, but I somehow doubt I'm going to be able to keep up with the growing demand... this has definitely touched a nerve with people.

By all means, feel free to spread the dialogue privately... I just didn't want to get the boards in trouble. :)

Madeleine
May 18th, 2004, 08:35 PM
Thanks Maboroshi :-)

darklilac
May 19th, 2004, 01:58 AM
By all means, feel free to spread the dialogue privately... I just didn't want to get the boards in trouble. :)

That means we can't talk about the missing scene here?

maboroshi
May 19th, 2004, 05:14 AM
That means we can't talk about the missing scene here?

I don't think discussing the scene cut is a problem; I just didn't want to quote the script verbatim on the Gateworld forums. ;)

DJFavorite
May 19th, 2004, 05:37 AM
Apologies to everyone who's been PM'ing me and getting boinged - I was busy at work and didn't have time to keep up with the boards.Hey, no problem. We understand. It's a shame that we have things like work to keep us away from the important things in life. :D

Thanks Maboroshi, for sharing the quote with us (via PMs, of course). I agree that there could have been so much done with such few words. The only thing I could think of that makes even the slightest bit of sense of not including the piece is that for some reason, the scene didn't come off right (timing, lighting, something technical). Otherwise, TPTB were stupid to cut it out. :(

Dani347
May 19th, 2004, 07:17 AM
DJFavorite:

The only thing I could think of that makes even the slightest bit of sense of not including the piece is that for some reason, the scene didn't come off right (timing, lighting, something technical). Otherwise, TPTB were stupid to cut it out.

Three guesses as to which option I pick.

DJFavorite
May 19th, 2004, 08:03 AM
Three guesses as to which option I pick.
Do I have to use the three quesses??

chachu64
May 19th, 2004, 08:10 AM
Can somebody send me the quote? I don't have IM, but you (whoever has it) can email it to me. Thanks.

Madeleine
June 12th, 2004, 10:24 PM
I'm trying to remain spoiler-free (it's a weird sort of spoiler-free, I don't read spoilers, but I have to read the threads of everyone discussing them :S )

But please, spoil me! Is there any Jack and Daniel -ness hinted at at all yet?

(Remember spoiler space, or I'll have to get out the pink stars :) )

keshou
June 13th, 2004, 07:43 AM
But please, spoil me! Is there any Jack and Daniel -ness hinted at at all yet?


Spoilers for hints of Jack and Daniel-ness in season 8.....
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
New Order 2 - MS said at a convention that there is some good Jack and Daniel banter in this episode.

Sacrifices - I saw a spoiler that indicated there might be a treat or two for Jack and Daniel friendship fans in this one

:) :)

Liebestraume
June 13th, 2004, 08:57 AM
^That's certainly good news. I missed the occasional playfulness between them -- they have been far too solemn around each other lately.

Madeleine
June 13th, 2004, 08:35 PM
Ooh, jolly good!

Dani347
June 14th, 2004, 06:25 AM
I wish they would have given more of a hint as to what the surprise was. But, maybe that's good. I'd hate to get my hopes up for a really good friendship moment between them and then have the reality be some pitiful shell. This way, I don't know what to expect, and may be pleasantly surprised.

ecm101
June 19th, 2004, 02:08 AM
I wish they would have given more of a hint as to what the surprise was. But, maybe that's good. I'd hate to get my hopes up for a really good friendship moment between them and then have the reality be some pitiful shell. This way, I don't know what to expect, and may be pleasantly surprised.

What dani347 said.

Kady
June 19th, 2004, 06:11 AM
I'm new here but i'm not new to the Jack/Daniel slash!!!! :)

....Just wondering which episode is it from - which that screen cap (popular with slasher) which shows Jack and Daniel bickering (as usual) by the DHD and Daniel seems to have a large....ehem....package!!! Anyone rememeber that screen cap or know what i am talking about?

Jack 4 Daniel 4eva
from Kady

Madeleine
June 19th, 2004, 08:44 AM
Package of what? Was it indoors or outdoors? Was D's hair long or short? We'll be better able to help if you can be more specific... :)

epiphany
June 20th, 2004, 12:28 PM
I thought this thread was about Jack and Daniel's friendship(or of late, lack thereof) as portrayed on the show? :)

Dani347
August 12th, 2004, 08:48 AM
Bringing this up

S

E

A

S

O

N

8

S

P

O

I

L

E

R

S


So far, I am pretty pleased with how the Jack/Daniel friendship is being portrayed. The banter is back, as well as just natural conversations. The 'squirrelly' conversation in Icon was classic Jack/Daniel. Jack acts like he cares about Daniel. Even though we didn't see a face to face reunion between them in Icon, I have no trouble believing that the Jack of that episode would be glad to see him. And, the conversation over the radio was a good non face to face reunion. I loved the way Jack sounded when he asked Daniel, "You coming home?" So far, I'm satisfied with the way the friendship is being shown. But, I'm always wary. Who knows if tptb will decide that there's supposed to be a quota on friendship and decide in the second half of the season that theirs is up.

Liv
August 12th, 2004, 10:30 AM
The relationship between Jack and Daniel is one of the main reasons I was drawn into the show in the first place. I love the interaction between all the four members of the team (or five, since I count Jonas among them, still), but the Jack and Daniel one has a special place in my heart. (Ooh, that sounded really sentimental, I should try to avoid that).

Anyway, while reading through this thread I noticed a lot of debating going on over the I know line and whether or not that was sufficient enough or not. I do agree that RDA´s delivery of that line sounded very flat, and in my ears kind of harsh, too. But for me, the thing that stood out the most in the two-parter is what happened in the first part where Daniel lunges for the ancient device and Jack pulls him back with a No, no, no, no, no !!!. That spoke volumes to me. As did Daniel´s cry of: Jack! when Jack goes for the device himself. I loved that.

I did feel that a lot of the warm friendship, that they had developed over the years, seemed to be lacking a whole lot in s7 and I was really disappointed with that. But it does seem like it has gotten back on track in s8, and for that I´m very grateful. I just hope it lasts.

Madeleine
August 12th, 2004, 09:18 PM
There was a lovely bit in the Atlantis opener. Daniel saying there was still time for him to go, and Jack's reply, "No." It felt as if Daniel had asked several times already, knowing full well what the answer would be, and probably not even wanting to go, just to get a rise out of Jack, but Jack not falling for it.

Okay, I'm a projector :) But isn't it *nice* when they give us stuff to project with! :D

Dani347
September 1st, 2004, 03:01 PM
Taken from the ship discussion thread (but not about ship) from GateGipsy:

For me, there is nothing as good as a really great buddy-buddy TV show. The Professionals, Starsky and Hutch, Miami Vice, Mash (Hawkeye and Trapper, and Hawkeye and Honeycut) the list goes on. That male-male friendship (and I am not a slasher) makes, for me, great TV. And movies - the Lord of the Rings for example.

I fond it interesting that the disclaimer about not being a slasher is there. Interesting because I do it, too. Even when it's already been made clear that I'm talking about friendship. Do any other friendshippers feel the need to clarify that they aren't talking about slash, even though it should be clear in the word friendship? (Well, I'm saying I feel the need to clarify, not that GateGipsy felt it) And, putting it here because when I talk about the male/male friendship on Stargate, I'm most often talking about Jack and Daniel.

edited to spell correctly.

brihana25
September 1st, 2004, 05:00 PM
Do any other friendshippers feel the need to clarify that they aren't talking about slash, even though it should be clear in the word friendship?

Do I personally feel the need to clarify what I'm talking about? Nope, not at all. It's upsetting to be accused of being something I'm not, but it's the price I'm obviously willing to pay to not go around apologizing in advance to people I may or may not offend by saying what they think I mean...

I say, if someone wants to think I'm a slasher - or dismiss or belittle my opinion because of their assumption - they can go right ahead. I'm not one. Never have been one, and never will be one.

But if someone is going to read "between the lines" of what I say, add 2 and 2 to what they *know* I really meant, and come up with slasher... there's absolutely nothing I could do or say that would ever convince them that they're wrong.

Madeleine
September 1st, 2004, 08:19 PM
Do any other friendshippers feel the need to clarify that they aren't talking about slash, even though it should be clear in the word friendship?

No. I used to, but it's a long long time since I personally have been 'accused' of being a slasher, so I'm pretty relaxed about it. It's a shame if anyone else is getting that, but it's more likely a case of crossed wires than a conscious train of thought that assumes it's not possible to be a fan of their friendship without slashiness.

It does help that there have been shippers posting in here ;)

ecm101
September 1st, 2004, 10:59 PM
Wow some action on my Thread;

Hey I like Daniel and Jack so far this Season, But I think they are going to run into some problems later on...

When is Daniel getting a woman it has been awhile for even him....

hail_jack
September 2nd, 2004, 03:04 AM
Personally, given what they've been through together, (watch the end of the movie for example) they will always be close; its only infered however and the show does lack some jack/daniel moments due to RDA's shootin' time....they're still "brothers" though...IMO, its not really important anyways though a lot of people will disagree...

Dani347
September 2nd, 2004, 06:37 AM
Wow some action on my Thread;

Hey I like Daniel and Jack so far this Season, But I think they are going to run into some problems later on...



Are you basing your thoughts on any spoilers, or just a feeling? And, how did you come to that conclusion?

JackDaniels
November 19th, 2004, 04:24 PM
Referring a little to the comment made about the lack of interaction/farewell in Lost City, I would have to say that we may not have seen much on screen but i think that there is an assumption that it would have been there somewhere. We all love the show for the Daniel/Jack relationship (among other things) and I think that their friendship is so strong that they don't always have to vocalise things to know how they feel and what the other is thinking. For example,we never saw anything between the two of them after Jack was shot in Heroes, but you would never consider that it wasn't there. I love the interaction between these two, its exactly like two little brothers who bicker just to try and get on each others nerves, but in the end you know they love each other.

I'm looking forward to more interaction between them as the season continues, and although the interaction has been hindered somewhat by Jack not being around as much, it will always be there.

A few episodes in particular to consider:

* Lifeboat
* Enemy Mine
* Window of Opportunity
* Abyss
* Fallen/Homecoming
* The Light

Dani347
November 19th, 2004, 05:28 PM
For example,we never saw anything between the two of them after Jack was shot in Heroes, but you would never consider that it wasn't there.

Oh, don't be so sure about that. Of course, we never saw anything between Daniel and anyone in Heroes.

And, since we didn't have to "assume" anything for Jack and Teal'c or Jack and Sam, I don't feel it was anything special (I'd use a totally different adjective) that we had to assume for Jack and Daniel. It doesn't say they're close, it doesn't say they're relationship is special, there's no way to spin that into something good. And, it had nothing to do with Jack not being around much. One of the best episodes that seasonto show some friendship between Jack and Daniel was Enemy Mine, and Jack disappeared from the episode in what? First 10 minutes? So, believe me, they can't fall back on RDA's time constraints. It was that when Jack was there Daniel might as well have been second place to lint. I didn't sign up to be psychic, to "assume" or to coast on earlier seasons to tell myself the friendship is there. To me, the "friendship" between Jack and Daniel in season 7 sucked like something I can't say on a PG forum.

Luckily, there's actual, visible, normal friendship in season 8. Season 8 (at least what we've seen so far) will be ranked higher than last season for just that reason. Oh, and, we don't have to assume it. We also don't have Jack falling all over Daniel, or hugging him every second (although, I'll never be opposed to a hug in an appropriate moment). We also don't have the on screen, where it belongs friendship taking anything away from the friendship between Jack and Teal'c or Jack and Sam. And, RDA's time is still limited. So, tptb have proven they can do it (and that the, ahem, quota of friendship scenes haven't run out) with all the restrictions and criticisms that have been given to justify the lack throughout last season, so I don't give them a pass for season 7. I'll credit them with season 8 (so far -season 7 started off moderately well, and went down the toilet towards the second half, so I'm wary) but I'll keep the blame on them for season 7.

Hathor999
November 19th, 2004, 11:55 PM
The most important thing for me about Stargate is the team feeling but I´m a fan of buddie movies and shows, too and so I enjoy the friendship between Jack and Daniel very much, and as more I think about it, as more I beliefe, that with this friendship no longer existing, a important part of the team spirit would have been gone . You can´t IMO not have any real team spirit if two team-members almost never talk to each other (and if they do one of them is senseless hostile - like Jack was it in "Grace") .

I don´t need big emotional moments to see this friendship but I think that in season 7 (especially the second half) there were not enough of it. Even worser, I beliefe that season 7 should convince the viewers that Jack and Daniel are no longer friends. What I think is very sad.
I liked Lost City so far (and I think that the scene as Jack stopped Daniel to use the ancient brain device was a nice friendship moment for them) but I still think there should have been a real goodbye scene between Jack Daniel too. Even if you don´t see them as best friends, they are comrades in the same unit and know each other since many years. So the lack of a real goodbye scene feeled just wrong IMO. And I don´t ask here for something big: two or three seconds can sometimes make a difference.

I´m more happy with the relationship between them in season 8: Some of the old humorous bantering is back and Jack seems to care again if Daniel is alive or not (something I had big doubts about after watching some season 7 episodes).

Sadly I have the bad feeling that there is a kind of pattern and we will (as in season 5 and 7) see the friendship between Jack and Daniel in the second half of season 8 breaking again. If I beliefe the spoilers I have seen (and I have visited many different sites and boards - and it were always the same things I saw) than season 8 (part 2) will showcase only one relationship...I think everybody knows what I´m talking about.
And that is really silly because I never thought that if someone is getting a girl he must end all his friendships to prove her his love...it´s foolish!
And with all that things which will happen in "Moebius" I doubt that there will be enough time left to include even a mini-friendship-moment. And so (to speak figurative) the fans of this realationship will,again, not being invited to the party.
I hope that I´m wrong and that the writers find a way to give ALL fans little moments they can enjoy but I´m no longer optimistic.

Dani347
November 20th, 2004, 05:18 AM
and I think that the scene as Jack stopped Daniel to use the ancient brain device was a nice friendship moment for them
I thought it was, too. And, I wouldn't have made quite the fuss about the lack of a real, feeling, goodbye scene if we hadn't had one for Teal'c and Sam. Making Daniel stand out like that was just wrong. And, no, having Jack leaning back with his eyes shut while Daniel is talking to him doesn't say to me "Ooh, they're so close they don't have to say anything." Might as well say, "Ooh, they're so close, they never have to look at each other. They never have to speak. If Jack invites Teal'c and Sam over to hang out and doesn't ask Daniel, that cinches that he cares more about Daniel." No.

But, like I said, we've had some lovely moments between Jack and Daniel so far this season. Some where Jack and Daniel weren't even in the same room, but you know that Jack cared. So, since they've proven that they can still do it, I'll be on those writers if they stop it when the season restarts.

Madeleine
November 20th, 2004, 07:09 AM
... we've had some lovely moments between Jack and Daniel so far this season. Some where Jack and Daniel weren't even in the same room, but you know that Jack cared.

Oh yes. The bit in Icon - "FIND HIM!" - was so good it made up completely for what was lacking Evolution, something I'd not thought would ever happen. And I loved their first scene together in New Order, which was classic Jack/Daniel: a dose of humour, a good amount of seriousness, and an acknowledgement that they each cared about the other.

Dana_Jeanne
November 20th, 2004, 07:39 AM
Oh yes. The bit in Icon - "FIND HIM!" - was so good it made up completely for what was lacking Evolution, something I'd not thought would ever happen. And I loved their first scene together in New Order, which was classic Jack/Daniel: a dose of humour, a good amount of seriousness, and an acknowledgement that they each cared about the other.
I'm much happier with S8 than I was with S7 regarding the friendship between the two men. Where I rarely re-watch many of the S7 episodes, I do re-watch what's been shown of S8 so far.

I love Icon the most for the Jack and Daniel bits, especially the one you mentioned above and also the "Daniel? Squirelly!" scene. I don't think I spelled that correctly, but then, I'm not sure it's a word either!

Dana Jeanne

Shipperahoy
November 20th, 2004, 08:02 AM
It makes me feel better to know that the Jack/Daniel scene or lack of as most would say, was not intended to short change the friendship. The commentary said that the scene was originally larger and had much more dialogue but that the actors, I think it was MS actually, felt that they could convey the friendship without the dialogue. Apparently they were wrong as far as many people are concerned and they seem to have rectified it thus far this season.

norriski
November 20th, 2004, 09:32 AM
OK, first I'm going to admit that I haven't read this entire thread, so if I repeart something already said I'm sorry....
Now in response to what Dani said...

My biggest problem with the whole "they're such good friends excuse they never ever ever ever ever ever ever have to show it again" is that it gives everyone on the show an excuse to be lazy. Don't show them exchanging smiles (see, it's not all about touchy feely)? It's because they're so close they don't need to. When a situation warrants a hug, or a pat on the arm, and there isn't one? They don't need to. It lets tptb and the actors coast on the first three seasons. So, even if they never do anything, we're supposed to just assume based on what happened before, when they had absolutely no freaking problem showing it, and it wasn't because they weren't as close as they are now. (Sorry, the whole no affection because they're so close just makes no sense to me) It also doesn't wash because even though I never had any doubt that Jack cared for Sam as her CO and friend, they're still letting that show (well, they've subverted it to ship).

If someone had just started watching the show in season 7, without any prior knowledge of the characters, would they be able to tell that Jack and Daniel have this incredibly close friendship that apparently manifests itself through disinterest and boredom? If you saw a man hug one team mate, and then later touch him tenderly on the cheek, and call another one a national or universal treasure, and later have his eyes wide open, staring at her, and saying with a voice that is just spilling over with conviction that he trusts her (and than says I know, but he actually looks at her while he's doing it), and then you saw him tell the last teammate just "I know" leaning back, eyes shut, no look of trust or anything, you'd honestly think, "Wow, he really cares for that guy so much more than he cares for the others."?

At the very miniscule least, Jack should have been looking at Daniel. We should have seen the trust or faith in his eyes. Not because Daniel needed it (but, I'm not ashamed to say I needed it) but because as his friend, he shouldn't have been able to help it.

I guess I can see where some may think in this manner and that's fine and your right...but I myself don't agree...and here's why, yes the relationship has changed over the years, and we have to admit that at least one reason for the lack of J/D screen time is RDA's schedule but that aside I've never questioned the strengh and closeness and dedication of this relationship. For the sake of time I'll only address things from Merdian on....
-In Merdian when Daniel had to pull someone into his "vision" to talk to in order for the team to "let him go" it was Jack, no question the only one he could ask, that he could trust, and that he know would be strong enough was Jack. We saw on Jack how much it hurt him to tell Jacob to stop, but Jack did it because it was what Daniel wanted, what Daneil asked and he had to do it for Daniel.
-In Abyss, I don't think much has to be said here so I won't go into detail
-In Full Circle, the elevator sceen was classic, later in the show when Jack and Daniel are talking about what to do, Jack gave the eye to Anubis because Daniel asked him, the trust is there and it's unspoken, they don't always agree but both have an amount of trust in each other that doesn't compare to any other relationship on the team.
- On to season 7-
-Fallen/Homecoming - I think the fact that Jack was the one that lead Daniel around took him to Janet, back to his room shows how much he cared for Daniel, but your not going to see a bunch of touchy feely stuff there because Daniel was still a little standoffish...then later the sceen in the locker room with Daniel and Jack talking and Daniel telling that that he remember enough showed that Daniel was starting to reconnect with that bond...then at the end when Daniel was looking at the gate it was Jack that stopped and asked if he was OK.
- In Fragile Balance it seemed to me that Young Jack was happiest to see Daniel (the "now we're getting somewhere" comment)....
- In Lifeboat, Jack wouldn't go back to the planet because he didn't want to leave Daniel, regardless if he could go into the room or not, he was going to sit and make sure Daniel was OK.
- In Enemy Mine, "Daniel go to your happy place", and the unseen conversation with Rokers character that we here about latter, shows the respect he has for Daniel and Daniels converstation with Jack in the infirmary about not wanting to break in a new Col. showed Daniels feelings...
- In Evolution 1&2 - it was Jack that come hell or high water was going to find Daniel, even if he had to do it alone, I never had any doubt that regardless of what Gen. Hammond might have said Jack was going to find Daniel either way....I never even had a second thought about when Jack finially did find Daniel, there was the hand on the shoulder and the look, then he took care of Daniels wound...it wasn't really a place to have a heartfelt hug or anything.
- Lost City - I don't think Jack's comment about who would translate ancient to Daneil was the main reason he wouldn't let Daniel have the knowledge downloaded into his brain, (it's been inplied that others can read some ancient, but greated Daneil is the expert)..but rather that Jack couldn't handle it if something like that were to happen to Daniel, he just wouldn't be able to watch it. As for the "I Know" I see that so different from what alot of you have said...the way I took it is, because of Daniel and Jacks friendship it was hardest for him to say goodby to Daniel. He didn't want to loose it was my interpitation...I know speaking for myself, if I had to say what might be my finial goodby to the people I love, the hardest ones would be with the people I'm so connected to. And at that point a simple "I Know" would mean more to me than anything else. I know for a fact that if I had to say goodby to my best friend there are no words that would do no hugs nothing, a look would do more than anything because we can read every thought in each others head just with a look. As for Jack closing his eyes and looking resigned, I think that just showed how much it hurt him to say it. As for the goodbys to Teal'c and Sam they were appropriate for those relationships...I have other friends that while it would be hard the only way to express feelings would be to outwardly show more affection.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Jack and Daniel never have to show anything again, but there realtionship is on such a level that communication and feels can be convayed in a look sometimes stronger and my accuretly then any other way...JMHO.

Madeleine
November 20th, 2004, 10:27 AM
Norrski, that was a good post. I see things pretty much as you do, but with one exception. I don't see Jack caring all that much whether he finds Daniel in Evolution. That's the only difference, but it leads me to a very different place than you. I really wish I saw that ep the way you did.

You've put in a lot of great examples from pre-s7 and early s7, but nothing between the mid-season two-parter and the final story. That great big hole probably wouldn't matter all that much to me if I'd seen friendship in Evolution, but actively seeing a lack of friendship in that ep made the next ten or so seem to perpetuate that lack. If Evolution had been what I wanted, then late s7 would (to me) simply be light on friendship, and not seem to actively downplay the friendship.

Although, you have made me feel a little different about Late s7. If I were to ignore Evolution I probably wouldn't have seen the stuff like Daniel and Jack never being in the same scene together as so significant. I'll just have to try and keep Icon, rather than Evolution, in mind next time I watch a late s7 ep :).

Dana_Jeanne
November 20th, 2004, 12:34 PM
Norrski, that was a good post. I see things pretty much as you do, but with one exception. I don't see Jack caring all that much whether he finds Daniel in Evolution. That's the only difference, but it leads me to a very different place than you. I really wish I saw that ep the way you did.
I'll say-- I agree with what Mrs. W said, Norrski.

I was so horribly disappointed in Evol 1&2 (I don't seperate two-parters); disappointed and angry.This would have been a perfect companion to Abyss. Evolution is only just now airing in sindi, so I'll put whatsits around everything.
Evolution 2 Spoilage

When Jack told Daniel in Abyss that he'd basically move hell and high water to rescue Daniel if thier positions were reversed, I felt that Evolution was a perfect episode to show this. However, Jack (and I personally blame this on RDA's 'laziness') showed almost no concern, no worry, no nothing. He wasn't chomping at the bit to go find Daniel or anything. He was told he would be going with Berk (and this is bad writing; simply adding in a line where Jack demands to go would have saved it!) He strolled through the jungle with his old 'pal,' arguing with him. After Daniel's rescue (which was fine, Jack was totally in Special-ops mode--great!) instead of Jack and Burk having a little 'snogfest' we should have had a scene with Jack and Daniel; the comfort part of this Hurt/hurt episode. Jack saw the huts, he saw Daniel, he's a smart man and could put two and two together. Just a tiny little scene with Jack perhaps fixing Daniel's leg and showing some concern. I'll shut up on this now!!

As you can see, this is a hot button for me :o

Dana Jeanne

norriski
November 20th, 2004, 03:42 PM
OK, first thank you for the compliment (which after I reread my post I thought dang I really need to proof read stuff...sorry for all the mistakes)...but after reading your comments (below) I decided to rewatch Evolution with a little closer eye...(I'm actually watching it now and taking notes, yes I know my life is very, very sad)...anyways I'll say right now if you don't want to see spoilers for season 7's Evolution stop reading now, cause I'm going to go into detail on some things.....


Norrski, that was a good post. I see things pretty much as you do, but with one exception. I don't see Jack caring all that much whether he finds Daniel in Evolution. That's the only difference, but it leads me to a very different place than you. I really wish I saw that ep the way you did.

You've put in a lot of great examples from pre-s7 and early s7, but nothing between the mid-season two-parter and the final story. That great big hole probably wouldn't matter all that much to me if I'd seen friendship in Evolution, but actively seeing a lack of friendship in that ep made the next ten or so seem to perpetuate that lack. If Evolution had been what I wanted, then late s7 would (to me) simply be light on friendship, and not seem to actively downplay the friendship.

Although, you have made me feel a little different about Late s7. If I were to ignore Evolution I probably wouldn't have seen the stuff like Daniel and Jack never being in the same scene together as so significant. I'll just have to try and keep Icon, rather than Evolution, in mind next time I watch a late s7 ep :).

OK, like I said stop if you don't want Evolution spoilers...and I'll say sorry for the length now, cause this is going to be quite long.....

OK now in part 1 we don't see RDA until after Daniel has left for Honduras (sp?) - 1st time we see Jack's it's after Sams already came up with her dart plan...we are just left to think that Jack's been involved in stuff off camera (like I said this is do to RDA's scheudle)....Now later it's Jack that comes to Hammond and asks about Daniel because he's concerned for him, when Hammond says that he's 6 hours over due I think you see Jack's mind spinning, he knows that a couple of hours can be chalked up to Daniel just being Daniel but that 6 hours means somethings wrong. It's here that the way I see it Jack's already starting to think of ways he can help Daniel....Back to Daniel, he's comments about someone coming for them I think was really Daniels feelings that he trusted that no matter what Jack would come to rescue him....At the end of part 1 when Hammond comes into the briefing room and says he has bad news, if you look you'll see Jack purse (or tighten) his lips as Hammond is saying he had bad news, I think it's because Jack instinktively knows that it's about Daniel, then to me the look on his face is of someone who's just been punched in the emotional gut but is trying to hide it, as he's supposed to be the strong commander type guy...but the look in his eyes is one of I'll save my friend somewho some way at all costs....Now one to part 2....it starts with Jack in Hammonds office talking about what they know about Daniels situation, Jack's "unofficially" comment to Hammond was his way of letting the Gen. know that something was going to be done regardless of what the brass says, but he'll give them a little more time, and he suggest that they send a team in, again letting the Gen know that Jack's planning and going to be doing something, it shows how much Jacks been thinking about it, and that he'd rather have the Presidents blessing but he's going to do something with our without it, granted what I'm saying is just what I think was being implied in this sceen.....Again, next we see Jack he's with Hammond talking about Daniel (I think this shows that this was the major thing on Jacks mind at this point, even with all the other super soilder stuff going on)...now I know that in this sceen Hammond says that Burke requests Jack come down, but I never for one minute had a thought that Jack might not be going, I think it was set up that Jack was going down there to find Daniel come Hell or High Water....Now, the sceen in Carter's lab, can probably be seen in two ways, one way if your a shipper (which I admit that I'm not) or maybe the way I saw it, what I saw was someone that was concerned about his best friend going to another friend who is very close to both of them to let her know that he's going to go and get Daniel back. I think what I saw in his and Carter's face was concern for alot of things and one being that Jack was a little scared of what he might find, and that he trusted Carter to run the other mission, but that he was concerned for her too, but his concern for Daniel was to great and he had to do what was necessary to get him back (now if you listen to the commentary for this sceen you'll hear PD and AT talking about how so much of this sceen is played the the characters eyes showing the amount of concern they had for what was happening)....On to the Cantina, and Jacks look of distain for Burke to me really showed some emotion, probably on more than one level, but his comment to Burke after yanking his glasses off of "It's NOT OK, I have 48 hours to find my friend", now right there something is said, Jack doesn't say he has 48 hours to find his colleagues, or his friends, he said "HIS FRIEND", speaking of Daniel, now Jack knows that Dr. Lee's missing too, and I'm sure he wants to find him, but it's Daniel that Jack's worried about not Dr. Lee, and it's said in that one phrase....Now as for Jack and Burke traipsing around the jungle together, the way I saw that was the writers thought it would be a good way to get into some of Jacks background, rather than have him running around with some dweebing little guide that no one cared about, and could never have anything to potinitally add to the story now or in later ep's if wanted...also if a way if you think about it, the background we get here shows part of why it's so hard for Jack to trust people and have friends, and that when he does find that it must be something very special, because it doesn't come easy for him (thus strengthing the J/D friendship view...but that's all really just my psychological interpitation)....One Jack and Burke hear the gunfire of course Jack going to go into full military mode, that's the only thing that he can do, it's what's best for everyone involved espically Daniel, he had to be the warrior and think like a warrior and not with his emotions at this point to help save everyone....Now when Daniel is down by the tree, after Jack's killed the bad guys, Jack's question about how many there were is what had to happen, Jack's still in military mode and he had to make sure the sceen is secure and Daniel is safe before he can do anything else, but he did have to connect with Daniel to get him to snap back into it, and that was with his trademark "Daniel" and his little nudge of the shoulder to Daniel, then when Daniel does snap out of it, I think his look of what the heck was I going to do with this rock, was there partly because he know Jack was with him and was going to keep him safe at all costs now....Then after they think the area is secure we do see Jack taking care of Daniel, wraping his wound and asking his he would be OK to walk, then when crazy dead guys gets up and starts shooting at them again, Jacks first reaction was to get Daniel to cover to keep him safe then come out and get the bad guy ( but Burke took care of that), then we see Jack helping Daniel stand and walk in the conversation with Burke....Now all of that shows me how much and how close of a friend Daniel is to Jack and Jack to Daniel...the last thing I want to say about this is, what I think some may have felt was missing was some type of "thank you" sceen between Daniel and Jack where we see Daniel's greatfulness to Jack and Jack's reaction of you mean to much I had to save you kind of thing...well if you think about it we didn't see Jack and Daniel come home, we don't really know how much time passed between the last time we saw Jack and Daniel in the jungle untill we see them at the foot of the gate...my guess is that at least one full day has passed (maybe even more) simply because we had to have time to get Jack and Daniel back to the SGC, Janet's had time to treat Daniel's GSW, and they both look cleaned up and rested, now I've always in my mind (yes that's a scary place) thought their was a very intimate "thank you" conversation between Jack and Daniel one there way back to the SGC (now don't take intimate the wrong way) I'm talking about the intimate conversations you have with your best friend, that you would have with other, Daniel telling Jack about what happened, Jack telling Daniel that he'll be there to help him get through it.....that kind of stuff...

OK now I know that was long, sorry I get long winded with this kind of stuff, but like I said that's just my view of things, everyone is intitiled to there own view, but maybe I can make people think about it a little differently.....

Madeleine
November 20th, 2004, 07:34 PM
"It's NOT OK, I have 48 hours to find my friend", now right there something is said, Jack doesn't say he has 48 hours to find his colleagues, or his friends, he said "HIS FRIEND", speaking of Daniel, now Jack knows that Dr. Lee's missing too, and I'm sure he wants to find him, but it's Daniel that Jack's worried about not Dr. Lee, and it's said in that one phrase Okay, I'll buy that. I still think that Jack sauntered too much, and I still think a "You okay?" or something is needed at the end, but that 48h line interpreted your way raises the ep a little.

Hathor999
November 21st, 2004, 12:02 AM
I thought it was, too. And, I wouldn't have made quite the fuss about the lack of a real, feeling, goodbye scene if we hadn't had one for Teal'c and Sam. Making Daniel stand out like that was just wrong. And, no, having Jack leaning back with his eyes shut while Daniel is talking to him doesn't say to me "Ooh, they're so close they don't have to say anything." Might as well say, "Ooh, they're so close, they never have to look at each other. They never have to speak. If Jack invites Teal'c and Sam over to hang out and doesn't ask Daniel, that cinches that he cares more about Daniel." No.

Yes this "goodbye scene" between them on the Tok´ra ship was just strange. And I disliked Jack´s cold "I know" so much that I think that the scene would maybe have been better if they had just been sat silent together and not talked at all. That had maybe convinced me they know each other so long that they no longer need always to talk.
But the way the scene was done gave me not this impression and is one ,of many, reasons why I although still like "The lost city" it is my last favourite among all season end episodes (and this means that I like even "Out off mind" better...something that is surprising even me)


But, like I said, we've had some lovely moments between Jack and Daniel so far this season. Some where Jack and Daniel weren't even in the same room, but you know that Jack cared. So, since they've proven that they can still do it, I'll be on those writers if they stop it when the season restarts.
It had me surprised to see after season 7 some nice friendship moments in season 8. The question is: Will they keep it this way (or at last don´t put any episodes like "Evoltion 2" in it which seemd to be intendet to show this friendship as no longer existend) or will they follow the same pattern as in season 7 (and in season 5)?

Hathor999
November 21st, 2004, 12:26 AM
Norrski, that was a good post. I see things pretty much as you do, but with one exception. I don't see Jack caring all that much whether he finds Daniel in Evolution. That's the only difference, but it leads me to a very different place than you. I really wish I saw that ep the way you did.

You've put in a lot of great examples from pre-s7 and early s7, but nothing between the mid-season two-parter and the final story. That great big hole probably wouldn't matter all that much to me if I'd seen friendship in Evolution, but actively seeing a lack of friendship in that ep made the next ten or so seem to perpetuate that lack. If Evolution had been what I wanted, then late s7 would (to me) simply be light on friendship, and not seem to actively downplay the friendship.

Although, you have made me feel a little different about Late s7. If I were to ignore Evolution I probably wouldn't have seen the stuff like Daniel and Jack never being in the same scene together as so significant. I'll just have to try and keep Icon, rather than Evolution, in mind next time I watch a late s7 ep :).

Thank you for your post. I understand now better why I feel so bad about season 7 as I do. I think that without Evolution part 2 I had liked the second half of this season much more (and would not fear with every episode that season 8 will going bad again). This episode was a real punch in the guts for me. They had downplayed the friendship between Jack and Daniel before (I think there is a big difference between first and second half of season 5, too) but never I would have expected to see Jack behaving so disinterested in the destiny of any member of his team. I think if this episode never had been shown I had maybe still thought that I would liked some friendship moments but I had not missed them so much.

Hathor999
November 21st, 2004, 01:16 AM
OK, like I said stop if you don't want Evolution spoilers...and I'll say sorry for the length now, cause this is going to be quite long.....

OK now in part 1 we don't see RDA until after Daniel has left for Honduras (sp?) - 1st time we see Jack's it's after Sams already came up with her dart plan...we are just left to think that Jack's been involved in stuff off camera (like I said this is do to RDA's scheudle)....Now later it's Jack that comes to Hammond and asks about Daniel because he's concerned for him, when Hammond says that he's 6 hours over due I think you see Jack's mind spinning, he knows that a couple of hours can be chalked up to Daniel just being Daniel but that 6 hours means somethings wrong. It's here that the way I see it Jack's already starting to think of ways he can help Daniel....Back to Daniel, he's comments about someone coming for them I think was really Daniels feelings that he trusted that no matter what Jack would come to rescue him....At the end of part 1 when Hammond comes into the briefing room and says he has bad news, if you look you'll see Jack purse (or tighten) his lips as Hammond is saying he had bad news, I think it's because Jack instinktively knows that it's about Daniel, then to me the look on his face is of someone who's just been punched in the emotional gut but is trying to hide it, as he's supposed to be the strong commander type guy...but the look in his eyes is one of I'll save my friend somewho some way at all costs....Now one to part 2....it starts with Jack in Hammonds office talking about what they know about Daniels situation, Jack's "unofficially" comment to Hammond was his way of letting the Gen. know that something was going to be done regardless of what the brass says, but he'll give them a little more time, and he suggest that they send a team in, again letting the Gen know that Jack's planning and going to be doing something, it shows how much Jacks been thinking about it, and that he'd rather have the Presidents blessing but he's going to do something with our without it, granted what I'm saying is just what I think was being implied in this sceen.....Again, next we see Jack he's with Hammond talking about Daniel (I think this shows that this was the major thing on Jacks mind at this point, even with all the other super soilder stuff going on)...now I know that in this sceen Hammond says that Burke requests Jack come down, but I never for one minute had a thought that Jack might not be going, I think it was set up that Jack was going down there to find Daniel come Hell or High Water....Now, the sceen in Carter's lab, can probably be seen in two ways, one way if your a shipper (which I admit that I'm not) or maybe the way I saw it, what I saw was someone that was concerned about his best friend going to another friend who is very close to both of them to let her know that he's going to go and get Daniel back. I think what I saw in his and Carter's face was concern for alot of things and one being that Jack was a little scared of what he might find, and that he trusted Carter to run the other mission, but that he was concerned for her too, but his concern for Daniel was to great and he had to do what was necessary to get him back (now if you listen to the commentary for this sceen you'll hear PD and AT talking about how so much of this sceen is played the the characters eyes showing the amount of concern they had for what was happening)....On to the Cantina, and Jacks look of distain for Burke to me really showed some emotion, probably on more than one level, but his comment to Burke after yanking his glasses off of "It's NOT OK, I have 48 hours to find my friend", now right there something is said, Jack doesn't say he has 48 hours to find his colleagues, or his friends, he said "HIS FRIEND", speaking of Daniel, now Jack knows that Dr. Lee's missing too, and I'm sure he wants to find him, but it's Daniel that Jack's worried about not Dr. Lee, and it's said in that one phrase....Now as for Jack and Burke traipsing around the jungle together, the way I saw that was the writers thought it would be a good way to get into some of Jacks background, rather than have him running around with some dweebing little guide that no one cared about, and could never have anything to potinitally add to the story now or in later ep's if wanted...also if a way if you think about it, the background we get here shows part of why it's so hard for Jack to trust people and have friends, and that when he does find that it must be something very special, because it doesn't come easy for him (thus strengthing the J/D friendship view...but that's all really just my psychological interpitation)....One Jack and Burke hear the gunfire of course Jack going to go into full military mode, that's the only thing that he can do, it's what's best for everyone involved espically Daniel, he had to be the warrior and think like a warrior and not with his emotions at this point to help save everyone....Now when Daniel is down by the tree, after Jack's killed the bad guys, Jack's question about how many there were is what had to happen, Jack's still in military mode and he had to make sure the sceen is secure and Daniel is safe before he can do anything else, but he did have to connect with Daniel to get him to snap back into it, and that was with his trademark "Daniel" and his little nudge of the shoulder to Daniel, then when Daniel does snap out of it, I think his look of what the heck was I going to do with this rock, was there partly because he know Jack was with him and was going to keep him safe at all costs now....Then after they think the area is secure we do see Jack taking care of Daniel, wraping his wound and asking his he would be OK to walk, then when crazy dead guys gets up and starts shooting at them again, Jacks first reaction was to get Daniel to cover to keep him safe then come out and get the bad guy ( but Burke took care of that), then we see Jack helping Daniel stand and walk in the conversation with Burke....Now all of that shows me how much and how close of a friend Daniel is to Jack and Jack to Daniel...the last thing I want to say about this is, what I think some may have felt was missing was some type of "thank you" sceen between Daniel and Jack where we see Daniel's greatfulness to Jack and Jack's reaction of you mean to much I had to save you kind of thing...well if you think about it we didn't see Jack and Daniel come home, we don't really know how much time passed between the last time we saw Jack and Daniel in the jungle untill we see them at the foot of the gate...my guess is that at least one full day has passed (maybe even more) simply because we had to have time to get Jack and Daniel back to the SGC, Janet's had time to treat Daniel's GSW, and they both look cleaned up and rested, now I've always in my mind (yes that's a scary place) thought their was a very intimate "thank you" conversation between Jack and Daniel one there way back to the SGC (now don't take intimate the wrong way) I'm talking about the intimate conversations you have with your best friend, that you would have with other, Daniel telling Jack about what happened, Jack telling Daniel that he'll be there to help him get through it.....that kind of stuff...

OK now I know that was long, sorry I get long winded with this kind of stuff, but like I said that's just my view of things, everyone is intitiled to there own view, but maybe I can make people think about it a little differently.....

I like your interpretation of this episodes and I wished I could see them the same way as you but I can´t. I can follow you about the first part, there I can see (with a little bit imagination) that Jack is concerned as he heard what happend to Daniel and Dr. Lee.

But in the second part almost all his concern seems to be gone.I interpret Jack´s idea to send a team as that he DON´T want to go himself. And I had the feeling that (after he had talked with Sam) he is even angry about being forced (because of Burkes request) to search for Daniel and Dr. Lee anstead to go with Sam and Teal´c.
You must understand that I don´t mind that Jack is concerned about Sam (even if he must know that with Teal´c, Brata´c and Jacob/Selmak she is so safe is she can be on a mission and that if there should be something were THEY can not safe her from he would fail, too) but he gave me the impression that it was completly unimportant for him what happend to Daniel.
And I can even interpret Jack´s annoyance with Burke as mainly based on the fact that he forced him to go to Honduras anstead going on the mission with Sam and Teal´c. He seemed all the time, as he and Burke walked through the jungle with his thoughts far, far, away and that gave me the feeling that we should believe that Jack´s mind is all the time by Sam´s mission and that what´s happend in Honduras was not really important to him. Only as the fight against the rebels started he reacted a little bit more like himself but that seemed IMO more his military-training as anything else.
Had he not all the episode behaved that way, I would not have missed a "are you O.K.?" after Daniels rescue but so I missed it very much.

It´s true he said "It´s not o.k, I have 48 hours to find my friend." but for me his behaviour turned this words in a phrase without any real meaning.

I really wished I could see more of that what you see in "Evolution"

I only hope that I will never see an episode that makes me feel so bad about this show like "Evolution" again (and I would say the same thing if it had not been about Daniel but about Sam or Teal´c).

Dana_Jeanne
November 21st, 2004, 08:12 AM
That's a good way to see the episode, Norriski, and I wish I could agree with you but I can't. I even re-wached it with what you said in mind. There's simply too much that I have to assume took place 'off-screen' to make it believable. Yes, there was the 48 hours remark, but that was really two little, too late.

I can't help but compare Evolution to eps like "Fire and Water," the "Spacemonkey" ep, "Cor-Ai" and so on, where Jack showed concern and anger--EMOTION--for his team members. It was Jack who disappointed me in this two-parter, rather than the shippier scenes with Jack and Sam.

Everyone has a best friend. Put your best friend in Daniel's place, and yourself in Jack's spot and imagine how you would be acting in this.

Dana Jeanne

norriski
November 21st, 2004, 09:06 PM
Well the great thing about all of this is we are each entitled to our opinions...I respect those that don't see it the way I do, and I hope I can be respected for my views, I have my reasons for believing like I do and you all have reasons for your views.

Dana_Jeanne
November 22nd, 2004, 08:58 PM
Well the great thing about all of this is we are each entitled to our opinions...I respect those that don't see it the way I do, and I hope I can be respected for my views, I have my reasons for believing like I do and you all have reasons for your views.

Of course!! I'm glad you like the episode :)

Dana Jeannw

sueKay
November 23rd, 2004, 05:26 AM
I wish we could see more of the Jack/Daniel dynamic.
Although I'm a shipper, I get the same level of enjoyment from Jack and Daniel's friendship.

They have a really interesting dynamic that I think has been sorely underused.

I love episodes like Need, Legacy and Abyss, as it shows that these two men depend on each other (though they'd never admit it :P).

I agree with some of the shippers, when I say that too much emphasis has been placed on ship. TPTB should resolve that arc and continue it off screen. I know if I did not enjoy ship, I'd be very pi$$ed with the show.

More time should be spend re-establishing Jack and Daniel's friendship. After all, that's where the franchise started, and I think it's a proven formula that the fans love.

If Jack and Daniel weren't there, there would be no franchise whatsoever.

I apologise if this sounds like on big babble.

Suz

Hathor999
November 26th, 2004, 11:03 AM
Well the great thing about all of this is we are each entitled to our opinions...I respect those that don't see it the way I do, and I hope I can be respected for my views, I have my reasons for believing like I do and you all have reasons for your views.

I don´t want hurting you with my post. I´m glad for you that you liked "Evolution" so much more than I. To be honest I envy this a little bit :) .
But would this board not be a boring place if we would have all the same opinions? About what should we talk then?

Hathor999
December 4th, 2004, 01:01 PM
I have a question: Considering RDA´s very much reduced time on the set for season 9, will we have any friendship moments between Jack and Daniel next year or will this part of the show no longer exist in the next season?
For me is this friendship (together with the team-family element , the mytholgy-archeology and the action-adventure element) a important part of the show.
I´m not greedy I know that the chances for another spacemonkey moment or an episode like "Abyss" or "The Light" are equal zero :( .
But how are the chances for at last for a little bit of the old banter and friendship?
I would really like to know what other fans who are caring for this friendship, too, think about it.

Dani347
December 4th, 2004, 01:36 PM
I'm guessing very little friendship scenes next season (soak em up now, people!). I can be resigned, provided that they act friendly in whatever scenes they may have together, that Jack acts appropriately in any scenes where you know he would show more concern than if Daniel was a wadded tissue (Evolution2 -black mark on the Jack/Daniel friendship as an example) and they don't blantantly have Jack getting all friendly and loving (platonic loving) with Sam and Teal'c and then figuratively spitting on Daniel. Or if they don't act friendly, there's a good reason. Like Menace. None of this "oh, they're so close they don't need to act like they even know is other" load of utter crap.

Hathor999
December 5th, 2004, 10:05 AM
I'm guessing very little friendship scenes next season (soak em up now, people!). I can be resigned, provided that they act friendly in whatever scenes they may have together, that Jack acts appropriately in any scenes where you know he would show more concern than if Daniel was a wadded tissue (Evolution2 -black mark on the Jack/Daniel friendship as an example) and they don't blantantly have Jack getting all friendly and loving (platonic loving) with Sam and Teal'c and then figuratively spitting on Daniel. Or if they don't act friendly, there's a good reason. Like Menace. None of this "oh, they're so close they don't need to act like they even know is other" load of utter crap.

I suppose you are right. I belief too that we will have no friendship or at least some banter between Jack and Daniel in season 9. The writers/directors/producers will use his limited time not for that but only for the things they consider as important (and we know what that is :( ). And if I understand right what Martin Wood and PDL had said on the last con than it´s not even sure if Jack will appear in season 9. I had hoped that I see that all much too negative and other people would see it different but it seems I´m just a realist :(

Madeleine
December 5th, 2004, 12:46 PM
On the plus side, s8 has less Jack than s7 did, but so far has had more J&D in nine eps than s7 did in 22. So even though I'll surely miss their interaction in the bread & butter eps, it might well still be there properly in whichever eps RDA does.

:: crosses fingers ::

Hathor999
December 7th, 2004, 02:15 AM
On the plus side, s8 has less Jack than s7 did, but so far has had more J&D in nine eps than s7 did in 22. So even though I'll surely miss their interaction in the bread & butter eps, it might well still be there properly in whichever eps RDA does.

:: crosses fingers ::

Thank you for trying to cheer me up. It´s just that all the stuff about RDA leaving and the supposed way how it will be explained in the show what´s depressing for me. Some little but good friendship and team moments (the team will always be the most important thing for me about Stargate SG 1) would be nice

::crossed fingers, too::

but I have given up to beliefe in it. It´s sadly not fitting into what the spoilers indicate. :(

GateAngel
December 7th, 2004, 07:32 AM
<<It is strong and deep, but it started out as simple nonetheless. The closest analogy that I can come up with is this: there are friends who accept me because they love me, and there are the friends who understand me without me ever having to utter a word.>>

That's exactly how Michael Shanks had described the evolution of Jack and Daniel's friendship when he was at FanOdyessy in 2003. He said that the two men had come to the point where one knew what the other was thinking and that they would know how the other would react to something without having to say a word.

Unfortunately the show is a visual medium and this 'unspoken' aspect of the friendship doesn't always convey well. To me the best Jack/Daniel interaction I've seen since Daniel's return was the open 1/2 hour of SG:Atlantis where the two characters were taken back to their roots and written as they used to be..the cynical soldier and the wide-eyed archaelogist. Daniel going where angels fear to tread with Jack's naturally cautious nature.

Dana_Jeanne
December 7th, 2004, 08:16 AM
On the plus side, s8 has less Jack than s7 did, but so far has had more J&D in nine eps than s7 did in 22. So even though I'll surely miss their interaction in the bread & butter eps, it might well still be there properly in whichever eps RDA does.

:: crosses fingers ::

I have my fingers, toes, eyes, legs... everything crossable crossed :)

Dana Jeanne

dfin25
December 7th, 2004, 11:39 AM
I've often wondered if maybe Jack doesn't have some resentment towards Daniel because of the events in Abyss.

langdonboom
December 7th, 2004, 11:53 AM
"That's where you're WRONG!"


--- Best moment in J/D, maybe even in all of SG-1, to me. So rich.

DJFavorite
December 7th, 2004, 11:57 AM
I've often wondered if maybe Jack doesn't have some resentment towards Daniel because of the events in Abyss.
I don't think Jack resented Daniel for what he did (or didn't do). I think Jack was angry for a number of reasons. At the Tok'ra symbiote for putting him in this situation, at Daniel for not helping, at himself for not being able to figure a way out.

brihana25
December 7th, 2004, 12:25 PM
I've often wondered if maybe Jack doesn't have some resentment towards Daniel because of the events in Abyss.

If he resented him or was angry with him, I don't think he would have thanked him at the end.

I think Jack and Daniel are exactly what Michael Shanks said they are - two men who understand, respect, and love each other very deeply. I've pretty well fanwanked Season Seven into being what I want it to be, at least as far as Jack and Daniel and their friendship is concerned. Season Eight I've been very happy with - no fanwanking necessary so far. :)

Dani347
December 7th, 2004, 01:12 PM
Well, how do you think Sam, Teal'c and Jonas got their idea for helping in Abyss? I think Jack figured out that Daniel found some way to circumvent the rules. But, it would just be going in and endless back and forth as to whether Daniel actually helped (which I believe) or didn't. So, instead, I'll say that I don't think that's the story season 7 was telling. Every reasonable explanation people give, such as Jack was afraid to get close again, or resented him for Abyss, they all sound like pretty good fanwanks, and might make good stories (although an Abyss one would be AU for me) but that's not what I saw on screen. Jack being angry with Daniel would have shown a heck of a lot more emotion and interest than what I saw. There's no way for me to suspend disbelief in those scenes to come up with a reason within the show's universe. For me, the reason for the lack of friendship between them will always be because tptb, for reasons unknown (and I've heard a few doozies) just didn't want to write it.

dfin25
December 7th, 2004, 01:25 PM
But think about it. Daniel, the constant rule breaking pain in Jack's ass, who's favorite hobbies besides rock sniffing are breaking rules and defying authority, left Jack to be tortured to death countless times at the hand's of Ba'al. Because he wouldn't break a rule. That really had to piss Jack off just a little. It probably doesn't help that Daniel called him a stupid son of a ***** shortly before he died either. :) I'm just saying it's possible. :)

GateAngel
December 7th, 2004, 01:51 PM
I always thought that they cut the scenes between Jack and Daniel to push the JS ship, because Jack had more chemistry with Teal'c and Daniel or something like that.
But in Lost City 2 Jack had a good farewell scene with Teal'c, so the relationship bewteen Jack and Sam can't be an issue.
It's not even the neverending excuse that there was no time, because this scene for LC2 was very brief.
Now I really can't find a reason.
I'm sure there is one and I'm scared to know what it is.Scenes can be cut for a number of reasons that have nothing to do with what agenda if any writers or show runners might want to promote.

Michael Shanks was getting married around that time of filming and RDA was planning a birthday party for his daughter. It might simply have been that one or both of the actors was not available for filming that part of the scene and it had to be cut.

I remember that a friend of mine who used to work on the set took me and my friend Ruth to lunch at the Subway restaurant across the street from the Studio and gave us his copy of the daily shoot schedule for Double Jeopardy that day. It was the Monday after the Gatecon convention and RDA was suppose to be in the actual scene with Carter and her robot clone when the clone was dying. He was suppose to be kneeling down beside her and was suppose to be in a scene with Teal'c. However RDA changed his schedule for whatever reason and came back on tuesday instead and those scenes ended up being shot the way we saw them in the final version that was aired with RDA's scene of him leaning against the wall filmed on tuesday and Amanda's scenes filmed on Monday then spliced together.


I for one fully understand the wanting of more of the old Jack and Daniel friendship scenes that seem to be missing now, but I think maybe we need to keep in mind that sometimes it isn't the writers or producers that make the choice to cut scenes, but that sometimes the actor's have reason and issues in their personal lives that causes their schedules get limited which in turn limits their screen time.

Madeleine
December 7th, 2004, 02:30 PM
But think about it. Daniel...left Jack to be tortured to death countless times at the hand's of Ba'al. Because he wouldn't break a rule. That really had to piss Jack off just a little.

No, I don't think so. Jack's a soldier. He has left men behind, no matter how he may want to think of himself. He abandoned Henry Boyd because there was naff all he could have done, and even *trying* to help would (a) be fruitless and (b) get others killed too. Daniel explained to Jack that if he tried to break a rule "the others would stop [him]". And then where would Jack be? He'd have gone from being tortured to death at regular intervals with a friend to comfort him between-times to being tortured to death at regular intervals alone.

Daniel didn't just turn up and say 'Here we are, sorry, nothing I can do besides chat'; he offered Jack ascension. Yes, I know that wasn't what Jack wanted. But it was all Daniel could see that he had to offer. Bearing in mind that Daniel had recently felt ascension was worth dying for, it seems to me that he was offering Jack something he thought pretty damm good, pretty worthwhile. Better than torture.

Jack chose to cling to life and to hope for a rescue; and later to ask for death. So when Daniel realised that Jack didn't simply need a bit of persuasion to ascend but simply wouldn't do it, he was forced to think around the problem a bit more. The solution he came up with was pretty subtle, and I don't think he can be blamed for not having thought of it straight away.

Jack knows Daniel pretty well. He must have realised, when Daniel returned after leaving Jack alone (and leaving him alone, they both knew, was a Big Deal on account of how fragile was Jack's state of mind) and said "there was something I had to do", then reassured him that help was on the way just moments before it arrived, that Daniel was at the root of it all. Jack's "Thank you" and the "... groundhog day?" and lack of any animosity or resentment at all in that final scene says everything I need to know about how Jack felt about Daniel's role in that episode of his life.

Even if Daniel hadn't been able to 'do' anything, I don't think that the mere fact of his *presence* should be undervalued. Dying in pieces, losing one's mind, losing one's soul, feeling yourself about to break, all are horrible things to have to go through, and going through it with someone who cares for you there to offer support has got to be better than going it alone.

A few months later Jack - still aware of the 'rules' that Daniel had to follow, and of what had befallen Orlin and his adopted world - asked Daniel to break the rules. He thought saving Abydos was worth the risk to Daniel, or stopping Anubis was, or both. And Daniel disappeared, with the task he was attempting unfinished. Even if Jack had been a bit narked with Daniel that ought to have made the point to Jack that Daniel was effectively powerless when it came to taking any action of consequence.

In Orpheus (paraphrasing ahead ;)) when Daniel said 'I should have done something' Jack's reply was 'We established that wouldn't have helped'. So he clearly understands.

Like Dani I can't come up with any scenario for why s7 Jack is so often distant from Daniel. (The best I can manage is 'Jack's too worried he'd lose Daniel to get close to him again' which is pretty poor, and doesn't explain why he suddenly does care for him again come s8.) I'd *like* to have a reason, since I like my television to make sense, but the 'lingering resentment following Abyss' reason doesn't fit at all, for me. So I have to go with the 'offscreen' theory of J&D's friendship for s7.

Dani347
December 7th, 2004, 03:42 PM
But think about it. Daniel, the constant rule breaking pain in Jack's ass, who's favorite hobbies besides rock sniffing are breaking rules and defying authority, left Jack to be tortured to death countless times at the hand's of Ba'al. Because he wouldn't break a rule. That really had to piss Jack off just a little. It probably doesn't help that Daniel called him a stupid son of a ***** shortly before he died either. :) I'm just saying it's possible. :)


Well, always thought he felt he couldn't break the rule. Not, "Oh, screw you Jack, I can do what you want but, I'm just going to sit here and enjoy the view." When he found a way around the rule, he took it.

And, I really don't think Jack is so petty and juvenile and on par with being a two year old sucking his thumb and throwing his toys, and has such a high tendency to hold a grudge against a man who went through a horrific ordeal (radiation poisoning) ascends, but then is kicked back to earth with no memory just because he called him a stupid son of a *****. Yeah, not going up on his list of favorite Daniel moments, and I could see him being angry in the moment. Maybe a little cool for a couple of days (since we don't know how much time passed between Menace and Meridian, do we?)But, these are two men whose friendship is built on deep caring and some pretty knock down arguments. It wouldn't be hard to imagine that they've both said some awful things to each other plenty of times. And, I really don't think being called an sob would be enough to get Jack reaching for the smelling salts.

Dana_Jeanne
December 7th, 2004, 07:41 PM
I can't imagine that Jack would be pissed off at Daniel for "Abyss" especially after watching the end scene when they were obviously very close. As for Jack holding a grudge because of what happened in "Menace" or any pre-Meridian episode, I would imagine that watching Daniel melt away in horrible agony probably wiped the past right out of his mind.

S7 as far as Daniel/Jack frendship moments go was pretty bad. I can't explain it away like you can, Madeleine (lucky girl), because the few times Jack and Daniel were actually in the same scene together, the was not even a glimmer of friendship on Jack's face. I would have liked to see Jack smile once in a while. Still would actually.

And don't get me started on THE MAJOR disapointment of S7: Evolution. ARGH!

Dana Jeanne

Feli
December 8th, 2004, 01:24 AM
Madeleine, that's an excellent analysis of Abyss IMO!

GateAngel
December 8th, 2004, 05:18 AM
<Jack chose to cling to life and to hope for a rescue; and later to ask for death. So when Daniel realised that Jack didn't simply need a bit of persuasion to ascend but simply wouldn't do it, he was forced to think around the problem a bit more. The solution he came up with was pretty subtle, and I don't think he can be blamed for not having thought of it straight away.>

S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S
FOR LOCKDOWN

After having seen the 8th season episode Lockdown and in it we learn that Ancients can take control of mortal bodies of other people to avoid detection, I wondering if that was even Teal'c going into general Hammond's office in Abyss to offer the solution or if it was Daniel. I mean Teal'c still had a symbiote at that point which would have taken care of the side effects to Teal'cs body reacting to the 'infection' of Daniel's brief presence.

Just something I've mulled over since seeing Lockdown.

Dana_Jeanne
December 8th, 2004, 07:54 AM
If he resented him or was angry with him, I don't think he would have thanked him at the end.

I think Jack and Daniel are exactly what Michael Shanks said they are - two men who understand, respect, and love each other very deeply. I've pretty well fanwanked Season Seven into being what I want it to be, at least as far as Jack and Daniel and their friendship is concerned. Season Eight I've been very happy with - no fanwanking necessary so far. :)

I agree with you, Bri. And if you could please fanwank S7 for me, I'd appreciate it! So far I'm having a really hard time making those two into friends, never mind the best friends RDA has said they are!

Dana Jeanne

Madeleine
April 5th, 2005, 07:19 AM
December, that would have been before any of us had seen the second half of s8.

Anyone got anything else to say about Jack & Daniel's friendship in the light of the last ten eps?

:)

Frostfox
April 5th, 2005, 10:57 AM
December, that would have been before any of us had seen the second half of s8.

Anyone got anything else to say about Jack & Daniel's friendship in the light of the last ten eps?

:)

Um, the SGC flag never looked so good?

Sorry, Foxy, shallow and proud. :o

Willow
April 5th, 2005, 11:11 AM
Nothing wrong with being shallow :)

Mirnell
April 5th, 2005, 12:14 PM
:-) I pride myself on not being shallow, but I have a screencap of the flag scene as my desktop wallpaper at the moment... so maybe its not shallow, its appreciating beauty.

Mirnell

Tucker Case
April 8th, 2005, 06:41 AM
Anyone got anything else to say about Jack & Daniel's friendship in the light of the last ten eps?

Yes: There's only so much happily-ever-after a girl can take.

I did love Jack and Daniel throughout Season 8. Whatever issues needed fanwanking around in Season 7 seemed to be behind them and their scenes together were a respite from everything else that was going on, so relaxed and funny and secure in each other's pockets were they.

They were good, solid, unshakeable, they were picking out curtains, that friendship thing was such a done deal not even Daniel's apparent death could upset their equilibrium.

Which was exactly the problem, particularly in those last ten episodes.

Not for Daniel, so much. While he and Jack were in their honeymoon season, he had other things to keep him on his toes. He was in Russia, he was in space, here on the Prometheus, there on a Replicator ship, he went from salo in Moscow to waffles on another plane of existence, he was naquadah trading on far planets with truly alien aliens, standing up to a Goa'ulded Kinsey, hounding Oma for answers, seeing a side of Anubis he'd never imagined before, seeing a side of Hammond that too rarely came out to play, he was holding court in "Danny's World" and going every which way, emotionally, with a pretty whack-job in a catsuit before ending up naked in Jack's office. That boy was a going concern.

And I think it says a lot that he needed to be thrown into so many extreme situations and surrounded by so many big and colourful guest characters (played by such high-octane guest actors) in order to create the same kind of intensity and dramatic tension he used to get from just sitting on Jack's couch, ignoring a beer.

And, since Jack wasn't getting anywhere near that same level of action, he seemed left behind and painfully bored and disengaged much of the time. Unless he had Maybourne in his face, Ba'al in his gateroom or Daniel naked in his office, he couldn't rouse himself to be more than functionally "there" (and he was so pussy-footed into the late season scenes with Carter I can't even credit him with stepping to the plate in those, he was given no chance to).

When it's merely the manner of Daniel's return, though, and not the fact of it that surprises Jack - when he's not only unsurprised by it but had been expecting it all along, so confident are they in each other - then it's probably time to close the book.

So, while I was very happy to see them so back on track, relationship-wise, it was a bittersweet deal. Such happily-ever-after signals an end. A good end, and a feel-good end, but an end all the same.

TC

tashgate
April 8th, 2005, 06:53 AM
And I think it says a lot that he needed to be thrown into so many extreme situations and surrounded by so many big and colourful guest characters (played by such high-octane guest actors) in order to create the same kind of intensity and dramatic tension he used to get from just sitting on Jack's couch, ignoring a beer.


TC, I just wanted to say that your posts are a joy to read, every single one of them. Pure poetry, and usually bang-on right.

Frostfox
April 8th, 2005, 10:04 AM
TC, I just wanted to say that your posts are a joy to read, every single one of them. Pure poetry, and usually bang-on right.

Yeah, what she said.

The dynamic for season nine is going to be so totaly different. I have a completely open mind, I fully expect to enjoy the episodes but it's going to leave a huge emotional gap for all the other members of SG1 with Jack so far away.

I for one am looking forward to the scenes MS said he was filming with RDA for episodes 1 & 3. I do hope they are worth the wait, no matter how brief.

Madeleine
April 8th, 2005, 12:17 PM
Daniel&Jack's s6 scenes were all of a higher standard than the averages of the preceeding seasons. I think the writers make good use of characters when they don't have them so much. I do have high hopes for the J&D stuff in s8 even if it is scant.

Tucker Case
April 8th, 2005, 03:11 PM
Yeah, what she said.

Thanks, to you and tashgate. :)


The dynamic for season nine is going to be so totaly different. I have a completely open mind, I fully expect to enjoy the episodes but it's going to leave a huge emotional gap for all the other members of SG1 with Jack so far away.

I'm both excited and leery (and it makes me a little bit queasy).

I do think the show was in need of a shake-up. I don't like to say things had stagnated, because it's too negative a connotation for what was too real and understandable a progression in all of the relationships. It's more that the characters had settled into a rhythm, inter-personally, and it was too hard to get them to reaction out of them anymore.

I never thought I'd miss the days when Daniel really did have to hold his breath to get anyone to listen to him (no matter how many times his more lunatic notions had come to pass), but I did. I do. I'd rather he not have to be separated from the team in episode after episode, flung into space, hijacked, hit on, skewered, semi-ascended and forced to eat cold pork fat in order to get his dander up.

I don't want them to go overboard in recreating the "good old" days - rehashing the same old character tensions with different faces - but I relish the thought of having new characters creating new tensions, and new realities challenging the old bonds.

And I couldn't possibly be happier with the calibre of talent coming in to make a go of it.

But I am sorry we have to lose Jack to see it happen.

I too am looking forward to the scenes MS said he was filming with RDA for episodes 1 & 3. I'm not expecting another 'Abyss' out of a couple of scenes, but I will be looking for something meaningful. I'm terrifically excited for Daniel next season, but a scene or two to remind me of what I'm losing in the bargain could give some nice weight to it all, I think.

TC

Katerine
April 8th, 2005, 06:52 PM
Coming in a bit late to the thread, just managed to get caught up :) (avoiding spoilers for S8, though, since I haven't seen it yet. Don't get cable.)

First of all, loved your points about Abyss, Madeleine :)


I can't imagine that Jack would be pissed off at Daniel for "Abyss" especially after watching the end scene when they were obviously very close. As for Jack holding a grudge because of what happened in "Menace" or any pre-Meridian episode, I would imagine that watching Daniel melt away in horrible agony probably wiped the past right out of his mind.

S7 as far as Daniel/Jack frendship moments go was pretty bad. I can't explain it away like you can, Madeleine (lucky girl), because the few times Jack and Daniel were actually in the same scene together, the was not even a glimmer of friendship on Jack's face. I would have liked to see Jack smile once in a while. Still would actually.

And don't get me started on THE MAJOR disapointment of S7: Evolution. ARGH!

Dana Jeanne
I agree with most of the other posters about the lack of emotion of any kind between Jack and Daniel in S7. But the mention that it might be resentment over Abyss got me thinking.

I agree completely with Madeleine's take on Abyss. And while there was resentment while Jack was being tortured, that resentment had disappeared by the end of the episode.

Then came "Full Circle." Where Daniel, for the first half of the episode, is behaving rather un-Daniel-like. Way too calm. And distant. Very, very distant. And still insisting that he can't do anything to actually help. Not just Jack, but also Teal'c and Sam are showing signs of resenting this ("He is very powerful, yes?" "That remains unclear.") You get hints from Daniel's facial expression that breaking the rules would be very VERY bad, but Jack clearly doesn't understand this. I'm not sure I would either, in his position.

Then Daniel disappears for a while, reappears with a lot of bad news, insists that they give up the Eye to Anubis, vows not to allow Anubis to destroy Abydos, and disappears again, again without any sign that he's still their friend. This time he disappears for good. And Abydos is destroyed.

A few months later, probably just as they've gotten used to the fact that Daniel is gone for good, Daniel reappears again... but lo and behold, he doesn't remember them. He looks at them like strangers. He acts like a stranger himself. Not to mention, one of the first things he does when he first regains any memory is he shows up uninvited at a briefing and tells them that the key to defeating Anubis, which he'd previously told them to give up the Eye for, is "still lost."

In Fallen and Homecoming, I see Jack, Sam, and Teal'c all struggling to find a way to cope with this new Daniel who may or may not remember being close to them (if he ever was... his behavior in "Full Circle" must have cast some doubts). While Daniel is just struggling to remember them at all.

Even now, there's this year-long hole in Daniel's memory, a year that the rest of SG1 remember as fighting for the planet without him, grieving for him, while he apparently looked on and did nothing. And he can't confirm or deny that, because he doesn't remember.

So Jack, Sam, and Teal'c start to establish a little distance from him because they're not exactly sure where they stand with him. And once Daniel starts to regain his memory... he's still Daniel, and as such, he would see his friends distancing themselves and assume that it's his fault and they want it that way. So he'd distance himself from them as well.

And you have a vicious cycle.

Frostfox
April 9th, 2005, 12:20 AM
Then came "Full Circle." Where Daniel, for the first half of the episode, is behaving rather un-Daniel-like. Way too calm. And distant. Very, very distant. And still insisting that he can't do anything to actually help. Not just Jack, but also Teal'c and Sam are showing signs of resenting this ("He is very powerful, yes?" "That remains unclear.") You get hints from Daniel's facial expression that breaking the rules would be very VERY bad, but Jack clearly doesn't understand this. I'm not sure I would either, in his position.

Then Daniel disappears for a while, reappears with a lot of bad news, insists that they give up the Eye to Anubis, vows not to allow Anubis to destroy Abydos, and disappears again, again without any sign that he's still their friend. This time he disappears for good. And Abydos is destroyed.

A few months later, probably just as they've gotten used to the fact that Daniel is gone for good, Daniel reappears again... but lo and behold, he doesn't remember them. He looks at them like strangers. He acts like a stranger himself. Not to mention, one of the first things he does when he first regains any memory is he shows up uninvited at a briefing and tells them that the key to defeating Anubis, which he'd previously told them to give up the Eye for, is "still lost."

In Fallen and Homecoming, I see Jack, Sam, and Teal'c all struggling to find a way to cope with this new Daniel who may or may not remember being close to them (if he ever was... his behavior in "Full Circle" must have cast some doubts). While Daniel is just struggling to remember them at all.

Even now, there's this year-long hole in Daniel's memory, a year that the rest of SG1 remember as fighting for the planet without him, grieving for him, while he apparently looked on and did nothing. And he can't confirm or deny that, because he doesn't remember.

So Jack, Sam, and Teal'c start to establish a little distance from him because they're not exactly sure where they stand with him. And once Daniel starts to regain his memory... he's still Daniel, and as such, he would see his friends distancing themselves and assume that it's his fault and they want it that way. So he'd distance himself from them as well.

And you have a vicious cycle.

Very interesting.
I think my task for the weekend is to go watch Lost City again.

I think the main reason for the distance between them (all of them, not just Jack and Daniel) was the writing on the show, but these analysis are much more interesting.
It's very easy to say 'Right I'm ascended, I can look and observe but not act' but a much harder task when what you are seeing are those you love in trouble. And it's even harder to comprehend from the prespective of those left behing (particulary poor Jack who knows Daniel so very well and knows he can rely on Daniel and now suddenly he can't)

Tucker - I do agree about the caliber of talent, I was never a Farscape fan but Bowder made me watch it, he was so good. Change is necessary in a show running as long as this. I'm still reeling from the loss of Jacob and Catherine but hope they can bring this off for another year or two. I'd love to see Skarra and Kasuf and the Abydonians brought up again, that was never touched after the end of Season Seven and I so wanted to see Daniel's reaction to remembering that his other family were now gone too.

Tucker Case
April 9th, 2005, 06:43 AM
In Fallen and Homecoming, I see Jack, Sam, and Teal'c all struggling to find a way to cope with this new Daniel who may or may not remember being close to them (if he ever was... his behavior in "Full Circle" must have cast some doubts). While Daniel is just struggling to remember them at all...So Jack, Sam, and Teal'c start to establish a little distance from him because they're not exactly sure where they stand with him. And once Daniel starts to regain his memory... he's still Daniel, and as such, he would see his friends distancing themselves and assume that it's his fault and they want it that way. So he'd distance himself from them as well.

And you have a vicious cycle.

Wow. I've never looked at it quite like that before. It isn't quite the way I see things, but it works. It makes sense, could explain a lot, hits just the right note of pathos and just plain works.

I just never saw Sam and Teal'c as all that distant from Daniel in Season 7, and was surprised at how distant Jack was after the events of 'Full Circle' because there I thought he had a pretty good handle on Daniel and the whole ascension thing.

He took Daniel at his word and acted on that word without hesitation. He did nudge Daniel over that fine line, but Daniel had one foot across it already, I thought, and Jack knew it. When things started falling apart and Plan A was no longer viable, though, Daniel pulled together a last-ditch, desperate plan to at least get that tablet safely out of there (hoping against hope that he could still save Abydos) and was able to talk Jack into doing the very thing that is hardest for him to do: Walk away from a fight.

I've had to attribute Jack's emotional turnaround in Season 7 to Daniel's disappearance after 'Full Circle.' It had taken him a long time, in Season 6, to come to terms with what had happened to Daniel; where Teal'c had seemed to accept his ascension as an honour befitting a "warrior" like Daniel, and Sam, despite her uncertainty, did allow herself to grieve his loss, if not his "death" per se (a healthy and sensible choice on her part), Jack struggled, certainly up to 'Abyss' and probably beyond.

I thought 'Abyss' did both Jack and Daniel a world of good, spoke volumes of how they regarded each other, but it also signalled Daniel's first step down that slippery slope of non-compliance. Daniel's greatest loyalty was still to his "old" life and, while I don't think Jack exploited that in 'Full Circle,' he did rely on it a bit, still not fully comprehending the extent of the risk Daniel was taking, until Daniel was gone. Really gone, this time, it seemed. More lost than he'd ever been.

Then he's found again, flesh and blood but by no means "whole," less himself, really, than he had been while ascended.

Sam and Teal'c seemed to take his return in stride far more than Jack did. I thought great attention was given to Daniel and Teal'c's friendship: I got as great a sense of the bond between them in just two episodes early in the season (that one scene with the photograph in 'Fallen,' and the whole of 'Orpehus') as I had over the last six years. I thought it was made expressly clear how profoundly the events of 'The Changeling' had affected Teal'c, with regard to Daniel; if Daniel couldn't remember it, Teal'c would remember it for both of them. Being on the receiving end of the undying gratitude, loyalty and friendship of an honour-bound Jaffa might have been a bit daunting for "Arrom" but, man, what an anchor.

Sam, meanwhile, settled pretty quickly (perhaps too quickly) into the old routine. After being given such short shrift in 'Full Circle,' she did have the distinction of being the one to, if not single-handedly convince Daniel to come home with them (although I wouldn't argue with anyone who wanted to credit her with that), then at least letting him feel safe in the decision. Jack had given him the facts; Sam let him know he was loved. Jack may have told him they were friends, but Sam felt like a friend.

Sam and Teal'c reached out to Daniel, were content to be friends to him even while he hadn't quite worked his way back to them yet; Jack seemed to be waiting for Daniel to reach out to him.

Their different reactions to Daniel's predicament in 'Lifeboat' might have reflected this. While Teal'c and Sam went to work on the problem, practically holding a boatload of frozen refugees hostage to get their friend - as precious to them as son and sovereign were to Pharrin - the help he needed, Jack would not leave Daniel. The man of action sat and watched. Because, if Daniel was going to slip away again, so soon after coming back, Jack was going to be there, was going to be with him as long as he could? Because having failed to reconnect with him to this point, having kept his distance, Jack was going to make up for it by sticking by him through this? Because, being less secure in Daniel's return than Sam and Teal'c had become, Jack was simply that much more afraid that they were going to lose him now? All of the above?

I'm not sure, because the whole season came unhinged in the second half, in more than just Jack and Daniel's relationship - which actually had moments that hinted at the relaxed, comfortable rhythm they would fall into in Season 8, as though the scare in 'Evolution' had had a greater impact than actually played in that dismal episode - to the point where it seemed positively weird when they all congregated at Jack's house, making 'Simpsons' analogies, scarfing down doughnuts and balancing oranges on beer bottles. Since when were these people so chummy, as a group?

It's as though there was meant to be a point in Season 7 after which we were supposed to assume unassailable friendship, that everything was now back to normal and it was okay if the characters barely spoke to each other because we knew they were tight as tight could be and didn't need to be reminded. A bad enough decision, even without a team that had been fractured and needed to be seen coalescing into that family-of-four again.

I actually thought Jack, more than Daniel, was the missing piece. He needed to put the cap on the reconnection - the other three were ready, just waiting for him to pull it all together, finally - and he never really did.

TC

Frostfox
April 9th, 2005, 07:43 AM
I thought 'Abyss' did both Jack and Daniel a world of good, spoke volumes of how they regarded each other, but it also signalled Daniel's first step down that slippery slope of non-compliance. Daniel's greatest loyalty was still to his "old" life and, while I don't think Jack exploited that in 'Full Circle,' he did rely on it a bit, still not fully comprehending the extent of the risk Daniel was taking, until Daniel was gone. Really gone, this time, it seemed. More lost than he'd ever been.

Going to go watch these two episodes this afternoon. I've seen them both before but that was before I converted as a 'fan' as opposed to a casual viewer. Season six are the DVD's I watch least, adore Corin Nemic but poor Jonas left me cold, just didn't work for me, so I need to rewatch and pay more attention this time. :)

Loved both Sam and Teal'c's welcoming attitude to Daniel at the start of seven, particularly when Sam goes into the tent to speak to him, she so wants to connect again and I've always been fond of the Daniel/Sam supertwins friendship.
If you consider Jack and Daniel to be more than friends, some of Jack's difficulties make more sense to me too. Imagine it's your life partner who's doing all this ascended malarky and comes back not knowing you, it would be hellishly difficult to deal with.


Their different reactions to Daniel's predicament in 'Lifeboat' might have reflected this. While Teal'c and Sam went to work on the problem, practically holding a boatload of frozen refugees hostage to get their friend - as precious to them as son and sovereign were to Pharrin - the help he needed. But Jack wouldn't leave Daniel. The man of action sat and watched. Because, if Daniel was going to slip away again, so soon after coming back, Jack was going to be there, was going to be with him as long as he could? Because having failed to reconnect with him to this point, having kept his distance, Jack was going to make up for it by sticking by him through this? Because, being less secure in Daniel's return than Sam and Teal'c had become, Jack was simply that much more afraid that they were going to lose him now? All of the above?

Worried sick, and it must have been a nasty reminder of sitting there watching Daniel slip away in possibly the same isolation room in Meridian?



I actually thought Jack, more than Daniel, was the missing piece. He needed to put the cap on the reconnection - the other three were ready, just waiting for him to pull it all together, finally - and he never really did.

TC

We know Jack is bad at emotional stuff, witness his problems right at the start with Sara and loosing her as well as Charlie.
All interesting stuff, TC. You are making me look at whole seasons in a new light.

FF, not known for her in depth analysis of anything more meaningful than Daniel's lovely physique.

Tucker Case
April 9th, 2005, 09:16 AM
Loved both Sam and Teal'c's welcoming attitude to Daniel at the start of seven, particularly when Sam goes into the tent to speak to him, she so wants to connect again and I've always been fond of the Daniel/Sam supertwins friendship.

Sam was such a love in this. She had Daniel back and that was all she needed. She'd be friends enough for both of them until he caught up with her. However lost and overwhelmed he must have felt, Daniel knew Sam adored him and there wasn't a thing in this universe Teal'c wouldn't do for him. Those were the certainties he had to build on.


If you consider Jack and Daniel to be more than friends, some of Jack's difficulties make more sense to me too. Imagine it's your life partner who's doing all this ascended malarky and comes back not knowing you, it would be hellishly difficult to deal with.

Everything about Jack makes more sense if you look at him through the lens of more-than-friends, whether you see him and Daniel as having been more than friends before Daniel ascended (and thus Jack having lost more got "less" back than the others), or if you see Jack as having felt more than friendship for Daniel without acting on it and not having the first idea what to make of his second chance now (particularly if you're of the school that says those unaddressed feelings had put a strain on their friendship in earlier seasons - how much more confusing would it make things for Daniel now).

But, as much as I think somebody out in Vancouver was having a ball playing *nudge-nudge* *wink-wink* with that portion of the audience in Season 8 - never pandering to them, just cheerfully waving from the wings and inviting them to have their fun - I don't really believe the story is actively trying to tell anyone that there's more-than-friendship going on there, and I feel somewhat obliged to try and make sense of what they are showing us.

It's a bit of an effort sometimes.


Worried sick, and it must have been a nasty reminder of sitting there watching Daniel slip away in possibly the same isolation room in Meridian?

There's that, too. :)

Although I would have felt they'd all be feeling a touch of this, particularly given the horrible irony of it all.

They may have lost Daniel, physically, before, but his spirit remained unchanged. He was still their Daniel, he just glowed a bit and wasn't around as much.

But now? Here he is, back in their midst, flesh, bone, hair and appendectomy scar, physically present, only with his spirit in danger of being swallowed whole and irreparably lost. He was more "their" Daniel as an ephemeral glow-worm than this boatload of intruders would ever be.

It's enough to make one think he was better off ascended. Though, I guess, if Jack was feeling at all responsible for pushing Daniel over that line, it would explain some of his heightened anxiety, the need to stay by his side.

Maybe 'Lifeboat' was meant to be seen as the turning point, given how all-is-right-in-the-world Daniel and Jack seem in 'Enemy Mine,' with its happy places and jokes about "breaking in" new colonels, how confident Jack seems in Daniel (and his ability to take care of himself), and the first strong evidence, in that episode, of the more proactive and self-confident attitude that is meant to be the hallmark of post-ascension Daniel.

However unsure and unsettled in his identity Daniel may have been prior to 'Lifeboat,' he fights for that identity when it's threatened, finds a way to protect it and emerges intact - and asking for Jack - against what are supposed to be impossible odds. He is so back in that episode, and clearly has no intention of going anywhere.

It just all goes inexplicably south in the second half of the season.


We know Jack is bad at emotional stuff, witness his problems right at the start with Sara and loosing her as well as Charlie.

Spacemonkey hug notwithstanding, yes, he does. And the longer you wait to make the right gesture, the harder it is to do. At some point, you lose your chance to get it "right," the moment passes.

Anything after that, almost. is reparation. "Better late than never," but not the best you could have done, for yourself or the other person.

TC

melpomene
April 9th, 2005, 09:25 AM
I think what we're seeing is just a more grown up Jack and Daniel. I think Jack might respect Daniel more and maybe isn't quite sure how to treat him. He used to treat him more like a boy. Now the boy's grown up but they don't quite have the knowing manly bond Jack and Teal'c have. I think maybe there's been a little awkwardness. Daniel was so mature and aloof when he was a glow boy and in season 7 he was both mature and clueless. I think maybe they're still getting used to each other. After all awkwardness was a constant in thier friendship. But I don't think it's over. Just a little confused.

Frostfox
April 9th, 2005, 09:35 AM
But, as much as I think somebody out in Vancouver was having a ball playing *nudge-nudge* *wink-wink* with that portion of the audience in Season 8 - never pandering to them, just cheerfully waving from the wings and inviting them to have their fun - I don't really believe the story is actively trying to tell anyone that there's more-than-friendship going on there, and I feel somewhat obliged to try and make sense of what they are showing us.

It's a bit of an effort sometimes.



I don't for a second think that TPTB think that there is anything other than a friendship between them. The whole nature of Western TV is against it. But it just works so well for me with lots of what we see on screen. But with fanfic, I devour the D/J friendship stories just as voraciously as I do slash, if not more so.

Though the Flag Scene at the end of Threads, I have real trouble
interpreting in any way other than a slashy way! Edited to add the piccy, just because I could and because it's canon and it's lovely!!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v220/frostfox/image695.jpg


They may have lost Daniel, physically, before, but his spirit remained unchanged. He was still their Daniel, he just glowed a bit and wasn't around as much.

But now? Here he is, back in their midst, flesh, bone, hair and appendectomy scar, physically present, only with his spirit in danger of being swallowed whole and irreparably lost. He was more "their" Daniel as an ephemeral glow-worm than this boatload of intruders would ever be.

It's enough to make one think he was better off ascended. Though, I guess, if Jack was feeling at all responsible for pushing Daniel over that line, it would explain some of his heightened anxiety, the need to stay by his side.

Maybe 'Lifeboat' was meant to be seen as the turning point, given how all-is-right-in-the-world Daniel and Jack seem in 'Enemy Mine,' with its happy places and jokes about "breaking in" new colonels, how confident Jack seems in Daniel (and his ability to take care of himself), and the first strong evidence, in that episode, of the more proactive and self-confident attitude that is meant to be the hallmark of post-ascension Daniel.

However unsure and unsettled in his identity Daniel may have been prior to 'Lifeboat,' he fights for that identity when it's threatened, finds a way to protect it and emerges intact - and asking for Jack - against what are supposed to be impossible odds. He is so back in that episode, and clearly has no intention of going anywhere.

TC


As anyone with a relative with something like stroke or Altzhiemers will attest, loosing the personality is devastating, worse than loosing the body. My father survived a dreadful stroke but the man who lived was only my Dad in shape and form, the man had gone. It was very hard indeed.

Frostfox
April 9th, 2005, 09:41 AM
I think what we're seeing is just a more grown up Jack and Daniel. I think Jack might respect Daniel more and maybe isn't quite sure how to treat him. He used to treat him more like a boy. Now the boy's grown up but they don't quite have the knowing manly bond Jack and Teal'c have. I think maybe there's been a little awkwardness. Daniel was so mature and aloof when he was a glow boy and in season 7 he was both mature and clueless. I think maybe they're still getting used to each other. After all awkwardness was a constant in thier friendship. But I don't think it's over. Just a little confused.

This is also quite true. Daniel has grown up both physicaly and emotionaly, he's in many ways a different man to the one we saw at the start of the film (well, so's Jack). Their friendship has changed too.

Madeleine
April 9th, 2005, 10:05 AM
[About Jack sitting there in the observation room during Lifeboat] Worried sick, and it must have been a nasty reminder of sitting there watching Daniel slip away in possibly the same isolation room in Meridian?
Although I would have felt they'd all be feeling a touch of this, particularly given the horrible irony of it all.


Except that in Meridian none of them could do anything. In Lifeboat they could all do something. The question is then why it was Jack who uncharacteristically chose to hand leadership of the salvage mission to Sam rather than dealing with it himself.

I think the answer is in Abyss rather than Meridian. I thnk the reason Jack stayed with Daniel was because he knew the value of having a supportive friend nearby when death is looming.

Tucker Case
April 9th, 2005, 10:12 AM
Daniel was so mature and aloof when he was a glow boy and in season 7 he was both mature and clueless. I think maybe they're still getting used to each other. After all awkwardness was a constant in thier friendship. But I don't think it's over. Just a little confused.

A bit like going from being "Daddy's little girl" to just his "daughter."

Or the way things changed between my sister and me as that five-year age gap between us that was sooo huge when I was a big girl of ten, and she was a wee dumpling of five - or when I was that full-of-myself fifteen-year-old and she the annoying "child" of ten, or I was the "woman" of twenty trying to guide the girl of fifteen away from the mistakes I'd made - amounts to all of nothing now. She was more grown up at twenty than I am yet. The depth of feeling between us hasn't changed, but the way we relate to each other sure has.

And I can certainly see evidence of the same sort of thing in Jack and Daniel's relationship...just, um, a little less girly.

TC

Tucker Case
April 9th, 2005, 10:29 AM
I think the answer is in Abyss rather than Meridian. I thnk the reason Jack stayed with Daniel was because he knew the value of having a supportive friend nearby when death is looming.

I think that's likely exactly it, too. Or a very large part of it.

I might throw in a touch of 'Full Circle,' as well, work in smidgeon of Jack feeling he might have been at least partly responsible for bringing Daniel back, to this, and wanting to give him the kind of unyielding support he hadn't while Daniel was still getting the hang of ascension, and perhaps the kind of support he hadn't really given him since his return.

But, mostly, he's just returning the favour, so to speak, and showing how much he's learned about the power of sitting still. I'm just not sure how clear Jack was on this, or anything where Daniel was concerned, until the crisis in 'Lifeboat' occurred.

More than simply answering Daniel's actions in 'Abyss,' it does seem to be the moment Jack pulls his head out of...er, pulls himself together and starts acting like the friend he claimed to be.

TC

keshou
April 9th, 2005, 10:42 AM
I think what we're seeing is just a more grown up Jack and Daniel. I think Jack might respect Daniel more and maybe isn't quite sure how to treat him. He used to treat him more like a boy. Now the boy's grown up but they don't quite have the knowing manly bond Jack and Teal'c have. I think maybe there's been a little awkwardness. Daniel was so mature and aloof when he was a glow boy and in season 7 he was both mature and clueless. I think maybe they're still getting used to each other. After all awkwardness was a constant in thier friendship. But I don't think it's over. Just a little confused.
That's kind of how I see their relationship now as well. I think Jack used to feel responsible for Daniel - he was a civilian and pretty headstrong in the early days.

Now I see them as equals. Daniel's not the little brother anymore. He's not hardcore military but can certainly take care of himself.

I don't think Jack really knew how to treat Daniel when he came back. Their relationship felt awkward at times in S7. Jack accepted the whole death/ascension thing and here was Daniel back - alive. A Daniel who doesn't even remember being ascended or the events of Abyss. Jack may have felt uneasy about who Daniel really was now.

In S8 I felt their relationship was back to normal and very much a relationship of equals. Jack respects Daniel's opinion - maybe more than he ever has. He trusts him to think with his head not his heart - as he did so often in the earlier years. Likewise Daniel seems to understand the "military" side of Jack more than he ever has. The friendship seems much easier, less filled with contentious discussions. I also think Jack now believes it's almost impossible to kill Daniel. ;)

I'm not sure I'd call them "best friends" because I think Jack is close to all his team but I think they'll always have a bond because i) Daniel really has seen Jack at his worst - especially in the movie when he helped Jack get over the death of his son and ii) they've been thru a heck of a lot the last few years. They have the kind of friendship where you may not talk to someone for months or years but you know they'll be there for you if you need them. :D

Frostfox
April 9th, 2005, 10:42 AM
But, mostly, he's just returning the favour, so to speak, and showing how much he's learned about the power of sitting still. I'm just not sure how clear Jack was on this, or anything where Daniel was concerned, this until the crisis in 'Lifeboat' occurred.

More than simply answering Daniel's actions in 'Abyss,' it does seem to be the moment Jack pulls his head out of...er, pulls himself together and starts acting like the friend he claimed to be.
TC

I'd been looking for a bookend to Abyss (Evolution, could of been it, but sadly wasn't) and you've made Lifeboat it for me. Thank you.

Tucker Case
April 9th, 2005, 10:55 AM
I'd been looking for a bookend to Abyss (and Evolution, which could of been it but sadly wasn't) and you've made Lifeboat it for me. Thank you.

You're welcome.

The lovely thing is, I think I've only just this minute managed to do it for myself (pending review of the episodes to test the theory).

It really does pay to talk about these things. :)

Ha! I knew coming here would be good for me.

TC

keshou
April 9th, 2005, 11:02 AM
I think the answer is in Abyss rather than Meridian. I thnk the reason Jack stayed with Daniel was because he knew the value of having a supportive friend nearby when death is looming.
And here I've always thought they probably wrote it that way because it minimized RDA's time in the episode. Easy and quick to shoot those "gazing thru the window" scenes.

I like your idea better. :D

tashgate
April 10th, 2005, 04:30 PM
Well, I just showed my best friend the extra on the Lost City DVD.... yep... he's been torturing me for ages now over Jack and Sam and "They wuv each other!" just because he knows it makes me wretch... and now I've started "Look at Jack and Daniel, they can't keep their hands OFF each other!" which apparently makes him reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaally uncomfortable.... Mwahahahahahaha.... and the extra on the Lost City DVD, well, that just clinches it. It's canon.

tashgate
April 11th, 2005, 04:08 AM
I watched Maternal Instinct the other day.... I also watched Abyss.

In Maternal Instinct Daniel comes out of the temple (adorably barefoot, but I digress!) and Jack's in full military mode, and Daniel tells him to put down his weapon. He says something like, "Jack, if you're ever going to trust me, NOW is the time."

Does Jack put down his weapon? No. Finally, after many tense moments I think Bra'tac was the one to lay down his weapon and encouraged Jack to do so as well, and then Jack followed suit. He trusted BRA'TAC there in that instance. At that point I think he trusted Daniel on a lot of things - academic things, intellectual things... but not on matter-of-life-and-death things.

In Abyss, in the very last Jack and Daniel scene in the infirmary after Jack's escape Daniel tells him that he's gonna be okay and Jack asked, "How do you know?" and Daniel says "You're just going to have to trust me" and Jack says without hesitation, "I can do that."

Those are kinda bookends moments for me!

Tucker Case
April 11th, 2005, 04:37 PM
At that point I think (Jack) trusted Daniel on a lot of things - academic things, intellectual things... but not on matter-of-life-and-death things.

In Abyss, in the very last Jack and Daniel scene in the infirmary after Jack's escape Daniel tells him that he's gonna be okay and Jack asked, "How do you know?" and Daniel says "You're just going to have to trust me" and Jack says without hesitation, "I can do that."

Those are kinda bookends moments for me!

Good old 'Abyss,' doing double-duty on the bookend thing.

For such a pivotal episode - for such a pivotal Jack and Daniel episode - it isn't one I come back to, all that much. I love the Jack and Daniel scenes more than I could possibly express, but the rest of it I tend to fast-forward through. If I watch the episode in its entirety, it's because I've got the commentary turned on.

'The Changeling,' on the other hand, I adore from top to bottom; it's the jewel in my Season 6 crown, even though there's not a single Jack and Daniel scene in it – although I find it very fitting that, even in Teal'c's dream, Jack is the one who knows a guy who can help Teal'c and sends "Dr. Jackson" his way.

I think a lot of 'Abyss' is lost on me, sometimes. For all the tension and drama, the anger, the despair, the weight and measure of Daniel's presence and the turning tide of Jack's trust, Daniel choosing his old ties over the new rules and the sheer ingenuity of his actions, I keep coming back to their mirroring attitudes towards ascension and each other: To the way Daniel, having made poor Oma work so hard to convince him of his worth and help him see that he was capable of ascending, doesn't hesitate for a second to declare Jack a fitting candidate, only to have Jack resist, on the grounds that ascension is for truly exceptional human beings, special people - people like Daniel - and not a guy like him.

As much as I love that they prize each other so highly, I could smack the both of them sometimes for not getting it about themselves. Not that humility isn't adorable on them. Or that it isn't cute, the way each one can be the vanguard of the other's self-regard.

They're learning.

TC

tashgate
April 12th, 2005, 03:47 AM
To the way Daniel, having made poor Oma work so hard to convince him of his worth and help him see that he was capable of ascending, doesn't hesitate for a second to declare Jack a fitting candidate, only to have Jack resist, on the grounds that ascension is for truly exceptional human beings, special people - people like Daniel - and not a guy like him.


TC

That was one of my very favorite exchanges ever - "I'm not you." "Yeah... since when did that ever stop you?" So simple. So understated. So perfect.

And yes, Abyss DOES bookend nicely with SO many other eps, even reaching as far back as Need - Jack was there for Daniel who was going through something that Jack understood.... and now Daniel was there for Jack who was going through something that Daniel understood...

whisper99
April 13th, 2005, 04:39 PM
Well, I just showed my best friend the extra on the Lost City DVD.... yep... he's been torturing me for ages now over Jack and Sam and "They wuv each other!" just because he knows it makes me wretch... and now I've started "Look at Jack and Daniel, they can't keep their hands OFF each other!" which apparently makes him reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaally uncomfortable.... Mwahahahahahaha.... and the extra on the Lost City DVD, well, that just clinches it. It's canon.

Oh my!? What extras?? Details please? :D

tashgate
April 14th, 2005, 03:18 AM
Oh my!? What extras?? Details please? :D

Oh, you HAVE to get the DVDs for the sheer joy of that extra alone. Each DVD in the set had a behind the scenes look at an ep, etc., and the fifth DVD in the set had extras for Lost City. I think Wraith posted some caps from it here in this thread. Yep... you'll never watch the scene where Daniel and Jack are talking on the phone the same way again. LOL

bugchicklv
April 14th, 2005, 03:41 PM
Bumpin...

wraith816
April 14th, 2005, 03:45 PM
Oh, you HAVE to get the DVDs for the sheer joy of that extra alone. Each DVD in the set had a behind the scenes look at an ep, etc., and the fifth DVD in the set had extras for Lost City. I think Wraith posted some caps from it here in this thread. Yep... you'll never watch the scene where Daniel and Jack are talking on the phone the same way again. LOL
LMAO! Here's the pics, for anyone who didn't see them:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v491/wraith816/daniel/113.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v491/wraith816/daniel/112.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v491/wraith816/daniel/111.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v491/wraith816/daniel/101.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v491/wraith816/jandd/67.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v491/wraith816/jandd/66.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v647/wraith817/jack/13.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v647/wraith817/jack/11.jpg

bugchicklv
April 14th, 2005, 04:10 PM
I just love the one where it looks like Jack is tweaking Danny's nipple.

MS is looking MIGHTY FINE in that pic...*sigh*.

I still cannot get the pics I am trying to manip to work. I suck at this... :S

wraith816
April 14th, 2005, 04:20 PM
I just love the one where it looks like Jack is tweaking Danny's nipple.

MS is looking MIGHTY FINE in that pic...*sigh*.

I still cannot get the pics I am trying to manip to work. I suck at this... :S
LOL...that is a good one. I may have to watch that feature tonight. :D

As for the manip, I'm sure it'll be great! :D

tashgate
April 14th, 2005, 04:38 PM
I just love the one where it looks like Jack is tweaking Danny's nipple.



Looks like? He's doin' it. Yep, he is.

SGFlutegirl
April 14th, 2005, 09:37 PM
Finally made it over here!

I need to go back and watch that! I saw it when I first got the DVD set, but not since. May try to tomorrow! :)

wraith816
April 15th, 2005, 09:20 AM
Finally made it over here!

I need to go back and watch that! I saw it when I first got the DVD set, but not since. May try to tomorrow! :)
Do watch it! I seriously have played that thing more than the actual episode. :D

bugchicklv
April 15th, 2005, 09:16 PM
COME ON PEOPLE...we cannot seriously be the only slashers here.

Oh, and will the mods get upset if I want to start a Danny/Mitchell thread (*IF* I see that one might be necessary...that bit of fandom might just stay in my head)

Feli
April 16th, 2005, 06:33 AM
You can open up a Daniel/Mitchell thread if it stays within the PG rules of this forum. Even though personally I wouldn't start shipping for any pairing when one of the characters hasn't even been introduced yet. But maybe that's just me.

Tucker Case
April 16th, 2005, 08:09 AM
Even though personally I wouldn't start shipping for any pairing when one of the characters hasn't even been introduced yet. But maybe that's just me.

Well, it's at least you and me.

I expect good things from Daniel and Mitchell, my little heart perked right up at the first mention of Ben Browder being on the show and has been frolicking about like one of those morning people who really need to be taken off the Cocoa Puffs ever since; but I haven't actually seen anything between the characters yet, obviously, so there isn't much to comment on.

And I'm a bit hesitant to think too much about what I'd like to see between the characters, relationship-wise - slash filter on or off - because I don't want to end up even mildly disappointed in something worthwhile and interesting, just because it isn't what I had envisioned.

Not that such sensible thinking is any impediment to the frolicking.

TC

Frostfox
April 16th, 2005, 08:47 AM
Well, it's at least you and me.

I expect good things from Daniel and Mitchell, my little heart perked right up at the first mention of Ben Browder being on the show and has been frolicking about like one of those morning people who really need to be taken off the Cocoa Puffs ever since; but I haven't actually seen anything between the characters yet, obviously, so there isn't much to comment on.

TC

I also like BB and think we will be a great addition to the cast. I'm hoping for some some good Daniel/Cameron interaction, mostly because I miss the Daniel/Jack dynamic so much. It wont replace them in my affections but but it would increase my enjoyment for MS/Daniel to have someone to play off.

Tucker Case
April 16th, 2005, 09:13 AM
I also like BB and think we will be a great addition to the cast.

The way I figure it, you really can't go wrong adding Ben Browder to anything, it's just a matter of seeing how "right" things will be.

He and Michael seem very much of the "same school," performance and perspective-wise; they should raise the bar for each other very nicely and I think I'm looking forward to that more than anything else.

That they'll look so darn delicious while they're doing it is just a big ol' beautiful blue-eyed bonus. :D

TC

Frostfox
April 16th, 2005, 09:20 AM
The way I figure it, you really can't go wrong adding Ben Browder to anything, it's just a matter of seeing how "right" things will be.

He and Michael seem very much of the "same school," performance and perspective-wise; they should raise the bar for each other very nicely and I'm think I'm looking forward to that more than anything else.

That they'll look so darn delicious while they're doing it is just a big ol' beautiful blue-eyed bonus. :D

TC

Tsk, it's going to be such a chore keeping an eye on the pair of them. But I'm sure we will rise to the cause.

wraith816
April 16th, 2005, 09:36 AM
*goes into her little world of denial where Jack doesn't leave, instead he stays with his Daniel and they live happily ever after, sigh* :S

discodiva
April 16th, 2005, 11:25 AM
Tsk, it's going to be such a chore keeping an eye on the pair of them. But I'm sure we will rise to the cause.

It's a tough job but someone has to do it eh Foxy?..... ;) :p

Dee Dee xx

Dani347
April 16th, 2005, 12:18 PM
COME ON PEOPLE...we cannot seriously be the only slashers here.



Just a reminder that it wasn't/isn't only slashers who have been invested in the Jack and Daniel pairing. Some people have only seen them as best friends, and found that relationship to be the most compelling.

Don't forget the friendshippers.

Frostfox
April 16th, 2005, 12:31 PM
Just a reminder that it wasn't/isn't only slashers who have been invested in the Jack and Daniel pairing. Some people have only seen them as best friends, and found that relationship to be the most compelling.

Don't forget the friendshippers.

Nope, quite right, I'm as much if not more into the friendship as into slash, but we were directed here by the mods when our previous thread mutated into a fanfic reccomendation thread.

wraith816
April 16th, 2005, 01:24 PM
It's the friendship that makes the slash believable...what they have works so well because they were friends first.

Tucker Case
April 16th, 2005, 02:13 PM
Tsk, it's going to be such a chore keeping an eye on the pair of them. But I'm sure we will rise to the cause.

I'll have to stock up on Power Bars to keep myself properly fortified for the task.

A few deep breathing exercises wouldn't go amiss, I don't think. And a heart rate monitor might be a wise investment, as well.

Oh, and chocolate. I'll need chocolate, for when I'm feeling weepy and useless because Jack's not there.

But, yes, I think we're most definitely up to the challenge.

TC

wraith816
April 16th, 2005, 02:28 PM
Did someone say 'powerbar'? ;)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v491/wraith816/jandd/69.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v491/wraith816/jandd/70.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v491/wraith816/jandd/71.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v491/wraith816/jandd/72.jpg

Dani347
April 16th, 2005, 03:34 PM
I'm not saying Slashers Go Home. I'm just saying remember that along with you there are those of us who think they are strictly friends, and who also think that is as deep and meaningful as any romantic relationship.

Frostfox
April 16th, 2005, 03:54 PM
I'm not saying Slashers Go Home. I'm just saying remember that along with you there are those of us who think they are strictly friends, and who also think that is as deep and meaningful as any romantic relationship.

Oh, I didn't think for a moment that you were. :-)

But I was just pointing out that it was the mods who suggested us coming in here.

bugchicklv
April 16th, 2005, 06:51 PM
You can open up a Daniel/Mitchell thread if it stays within the PG rules of this forum. Even though personally I wouldn't start shipping for any pairing when one of the characters hasn't even been introduced yet. But maybe that's just me.

No its not just you. Its me too...thus, you will notice my disclaimer of "IF I see one might be necessary".

I can always hope, but *IF* I don't see it then "that bit of fandom might just stay in my head".

I thought I was pretty clear on it. Must not have been. :cool:

Feli
April 18th, 2005, 04:36 AM
Oh, I didn't think for a moment that you were. :-)

But I was just pointing out that it was the mods who suggested us coming in here.

Actually I suggested that everyone who wants to discuss any or all aspects of the Jack and Daniel friendship should come here. Slashers, friendshippers and people who think Jack and Daniel hate each others guts.

bugchicklv
April 18th, 2005, 11:17 PM
Just showing off my new siggy...

(pets shiny new siggy)

SGFlutegirl
April 19th, 2005, 10:13 AM
Just showing off my new siggy...

(pets shiny new siggy)
Love the new siggy, bug!!

J/D=OTP
:D

wraith816
April 19th, 2005, 08:25 PM
Oooh...I can display my sig here too 'cause 'tis J/D. :D

whisper99
April 25th, 2005, 07:32 AM
Oooh...I can display my sig here too 'cause 'tis J/D. :D

Nice sig!

wraith816
April 29th, 2005, 05:48 PM
Thank you kindly! :D

bugchicklv
April 29th, 2005, 05:52 PM
My favorite is the one with the critical roles or job titles or whatever.

wraith816
April 29th, 2005, 05:54 PM
These are all the ones I made:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v647/wraith817/smdischarge.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v647/wraith817/right.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v647/wraith817/tax.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v647/wraith817/marriage.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v647/wraith817/straight.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v647/wraith817/19.jpg

bugchicklv
April 29th, 2005, 07:00 PM
"Critical Occupations" that was it. It's my favorite one.

wraith816
April 29th, 2005, 07:07 PM
"Critical Occupations" that was it. It's my favorite one.
Yeah...I like it too, especially since it really makes my point. There's no one in a more critical occupation than Jack.

Frostfox
April 30th, 2005, 04:52 AM
Yeah...I like it too, especially since it really makes my point. There's no one in a more critical occupation than Jack.


I hadn't noticed your sigs before, I heartily approve (and that approval has nothing to do with J/D).

wraith816
April 30th, 2005, 08:25 AM
Thanks! :D

ShadeAngel
May 11th, 2005, 04:39 PM
Okay, new to the discussion. New to the board, in fact. Sorry if I'm just reapeating anything anything, but I've just basically read the last few pages and that's about it.

I've been watching the series on and off for the past five years up until about last year when I became obsessed. It had always been the J/D bits that drew me towards to show, even before I discovered slash. I think it was rewatching season two episodes that got me into the fandom and I really miss the good old days. Their friendship has been pushed onto the back burner, leaving a lot of things unresolved. Season Seven was a bit of disappointment, but Eight was definitely worse, though I haven't quite reached the end of it.

Fragile Balance was my biggest disappointment. It had the potential to be a great J/D episode, but I don't think Daniel and Jack really talk to each other at all. For instance, during the scene Sam and Teal'c are teasing mini-Jack in the comissary, Daniel is nowhere to be found. Or when they find mini-Jack fishing Daniel pushes off the responsibilty of explaining the fact he's a clone off on Sam. Where is Daniel during all of this? It seems like he'd be the first to want to poke fun at Jack's age. The only saving grace is the one part where Jack catches Daniel in his underwear drawer.

Beta Candy
May 11th, 2005, 11:32 PM
When I look at how the actors play it (overall), I think Jack and Daniel are as close as ever. It's the writing and editing that causes the doubts - what they will and won't show, what they cut out. And while I totally buy that they're so close they don't have to express it in words or gestures, that closeness still needs to be expressed to the audience. We're not in their heads, unless you get the camera to take us there (and that IS possible).

The current staff doesn't get it. People complained about a lack of concern in Evolution, so in S8, Jack dangles precariously over the Cliffs of Insanity every time Daniel's missing. These writers seem to think their mistake in Evolution was the lack of a scene with Jack ripping his hair out from worry over Daniel. Unfortunately, that's not it at all.

What Evolution needed was one simple thing: in every scene after Jack finds out Daniel's been kidnapped and he's going after him, Jack needed to be in a hurry, or at least antsy. The scene with Carter would have played very differently if he'd been fidgety and antsy, instead of them playing the scene at the pace of a chess game. And Jack never should have stopped walking in the forest to chat with Burke. If Burke tried to stop him, he should have pushed on, kept moving ever closer to Daniel while he listened and responded to Burke. I really think that one simple thing - keeping Jack antsy and in a rush - would have conveyed that he had little room in his mind for anything but Daniel.

Little subtle things like that distinguish good filmmaking from adequate filmmaking. Unfortunately, we're dealing with writers who write in neon lights. They think if they overcompensate for their screwups, we'll forgive them. But overcompensation can be as unsatisfying as undercompensation.

Stargate answers the question of exactly what great actors can do with bad scripts - quite a lot, it turns out, or this show would have been cancelled in the fourth season. But as amazed as I am by what the cast continues to deliver, I find myself resenting more and more everything that gets in their way.

Switch42
August 22nd, 2005, 02:27 PM
So, over in the Daniel thunk thread there has recently been some discussion as to the nature of Jack and Daniel's relationship. I thought it would be nice to have a place where we could all come and discuss the more, um, uncommon side of things *cough*SLASH*cough*. :D

So, if you are a Jack/Daniel slasher, please feel free to share your thoughts and feelings here. I just ask that we try to keep this as PG as possible sticking to the general forum rules.

IF YOU ARE NOT A SLASHER, please do not make any rude comments to those of us here. I know this is a touchy subject, but I know there are a lot of us out there. So, please let's just try and keep this as respectful as possible.

So, what got you started on the Jack/Daniel band wagon? Was it an episode? Fanfic? Lots of little things all piling up into one?

Let's get sharing! :)

Kerri

discodiva
August 23rd, 2005, 01:30 AM
I saw the word on another forum and with my insatiable appetite for "Googling" quickly discovered "that" Diary and THING!... :p

I'm a sucker for humour and I swear I was engrossed for 3 days....I laughed so hard I did actually fall off my chair during the "not-monkey" incident and I still giggle uncontrollably when it pops back into my mind!... :o ;) :D

Dee Dee xx

Switch42
August 23rd, 2005, 04:03 AM
I saw the word on another forum and with my insatiable appetite for "Googling" quickly discovered "that" Diary and THING!... :p

I'm a sucker for humour and I swear I was engrossed for 3 days....I laughed so hard I did actually fall off my chair during the "not-monkey" incident and I still giggle uncontrollably when it pops back into my mind!... :o ;) :D

Dee Dee xx

THING!! Not-Monkey! OMG. I LOVE that story. It's sooooooooooo funny. You HAVE to read Scratch at the same site if you haven't yet. So great. All her stories are great, really. :D

Kerri

Willow'sCat
August 23rd, 2005, 04:58 AM
Ooh you got merged!

Hmm, hope the other guys aren't offend by the slash! :eek:

Well I love Jack, I love Danny and yes I love them loving each other. :D I really love wimpy Danny loving Jack. :p Can I post a pic? Hmm, not now 'cause it is like 11pm here! Later tomorrow. Are pics O.K? :cool:

blingaway
August 23rd, 2005, 06:27 AM
Ooh you got merged!

Hmm, hope the other guys aren't offend by the slash! :eek:

Well I love Jack, I love Danny and yes I love them loving each other. :D I really love wimpy Danny loving Jack. :p Can I post a pic? Hmm, not now 'cause it is like 11pm here! Later tomorrow. Are pics O.K? :cool:

I hope pix are okay cuz I made a .gif(t) for Kerri and all you slashy types... :D

Only about 700k this time! (http://members.cox.net/tgode/Busted.gif)

Switch42
August 23rd, 2005, 06:54 AM
I hope pix are okay cuz I made a .gif(t) for Kerri and all you slashy types... :D

Only about 700k this time! (http://members.cox.net/tgode/Busted.gif)

Aww! Thanks Bling! Sadly I cannot see it as work has blocked the page! Grr... I'll see it when I get home. But I'm sure it's lovely!

Kerri

PS - Oops. Didn't see this one before I started mine. Oh, well. Merging it good. :)

Frostfox
August 23rd, 2005, 09:36 AM
I hope pix are okay cuz I made a .gif(t) for Kerri and all you slashy types... :D

Only about 700k this time! (http://members.cox.net/tgode/Busted.gif)

Ahhhhh! SQUEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

Excuse me while I hyperventelate for a while. And drool on the iBook (which can't be good for it...)

They are so doing it.

FF, Bad Woman tm.

discodiva
August 23rd, 2005, 11:01 AM
I hope pix are okay cuz I made a .gif(t) for Kerri and all you slashy types... :D

Only about 700k this time! (http://members.cox.net/tgode/Busted.gif)

*Claps hands and bows at the wonderfullness that is Blingy!* :D :D :D

Deeds xx

Switch42
August 23rd, 2005, 06:34 PM
I hope pix are okay cuz I made a .gif(t) for Kerri and all you slashy types... :D

Only about 700k this time! (http://members.cox.net/tgode/Busted.gif)

Aww! Bling! That's lovely. Thank you!! *MWAH!*

Kerri

L-JADE
August 23rd, 2005, 11:42 PM
HAH! finally find the thread that Kerri refer to. Well, for me, J/D ship whether relationship and/or friendship both are beautiful or were beautiful until late season 7ish, not much to see afterwards.
I never read slash, had no intention to read slash but I'm crazy about SG-1 fanfics, then one day got the recommendation about Anais's Diary, yes FrostyFox the THING start it all.. GOD! that one is so funny and now I'm kinda stuck with J/D ships (and just so you know I don't read any other slash outside J/D). They're special and one of a kind, and since we can't see that anymore in the series, I console myself in fanfics (and maybe reading posts in this thread). Goodnight for now.

discodiva
August 24th, 2005, 12:07 AM
Oh I so agree with you L-JADE....J/D is also my only OTP....I agree it's the special friendship and the way the characters have interacted with each other right from the beginning which has intrigued and enthralled me...the guys play them so perfectly in the programme and some of the writers have captured them so marvellously in fanfiction....I can't see anyone else ever having that certain something that Jack and Daniel have.... :D :D :D


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v698/dancingwallnut/PDVD_244.jpg
Always there for each other

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v698/dancingwallnut/25-1969.jpg
The witty repartee

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v698/dancingwallnut/B2F8.jpg
Just two great friends, whichever way you look at it

As I said something special...

Deeds xx *shutting up now*

GateGipsy
August 26th, 2005, 11:02 PM
Love the pictures. I've never seen the 'slash' myself, but I do like the slash fics that use it as a way of exploring the emotional aspects of their friendship.

Frostfox
August 26th, 2005, 11:11 PM
Love the pictures. I've never seen the 'slash' myself, but I do like the slash fics that use it as a way of exploring the emotional aspects of their friendship.


It's a purely optional reading of the subtext between them, their friendship is just as interesting and as you rightly said, some well written slash explores their friendship on levels that might not otherwise be touched upon. I feel a bit like the guys who read Playboy for the articles but 90% of the time I'm reading slash for the relationship not the sex (the other 10% is hot though...)

The only people I have no time for are the homophobes. Bigotry is never pretty, particularly not in fans.

FF who's off to Gay Pride in Manchester this afternoon, a wonderful, family friendly, life afferming event for everyone of every persuasion which celebrates diversity, not hate.

wraith816
August 27th, 2005, 04:55 PM
It's a purely optional reading of the subtext between them, their friendship is just as interesting and as you rightly said, some well written slash explores their friendship on levels that might not otherwise be touched upon. I feel a bit like the guys who read Playboy for the articles but 90% of the time I'm reading slash for the relationship not the sex (the other 10% is hot though...)


*cheers Frostfox on*

To me, the smut is secondary...an added bonus of sorts. :D

On another note, I watched Abyss again today (I think I must have watched it like 100 times) and I squeed so loud the girl next door asked me what was going on. Yep, good example for the RA to be setting. :S

- Wraith, who is finally back on GW after an abysmally boring summer and a long week of RA training. :S

stargatejo
September 5th, 2005, 06:27 PM
Sometimes it hurts to know so much. Sometimes I wish I could still view sg-1 with innocence.

stargatejo
September 5th, 2005, 06:29 PM
Sometimes it hurts to know so much. Sometimes I wish I could still view sg-1 with innocence and Jack and Daniel were the best friends.

Switch42
September 16th, 2005, 09:57 AM
Wow. I must just totally live in the gutter these days. Putting this behind spoiler tags as it involves tonight's ep. But isn't really giving anything away. Better to be safe than sorry. :) Anyway...

So, one of the guest stars on tonight's episode is named Neil Jackson. That's the actor's name, not his character. Anyway, my first thought upon seeing this is "Oh! That's what Jack and Daniel would name their love child!" Well, right? :D

Hehe.

Kerri

L-JADE
September 16th, 2005, 12:37 PM
LOL Kerri!... but then the last-name is Jackson, does that means Jack's the 'wife' ? :eek:

Frostfox
September 16th, 2005, 12:44 PM
LOL Kerry!... but then the last-name is Jackson, does that means Jack's the 'wife' ? :eek:

Ho, ho, ho.

Somehow I doubt that!

Daniel has many, many, many fabulous features but Jack has more testoterone in his little finger than Danny does in his whole body!

But as I said, Daniel has many redeeming features...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v220/frostfox/busted.jpg

Just ask Jack.

FF, edited because I had two bottles of cider tonight!

wraith816
September 17th, 2005, 07:34 PM
Wow. I must just totally live in the gutter these days. Putting this behind spoiler tags as it involves tonight's ep. But isn't really giving anything away. Better to be safe than sorry. :) Anyway...

So, one of the guest stars on tonight's episode is named Neil Jackson. That's the actor's name, not his character. Anyway, my first thought upon seeing this is "Oh! That's what Jack and Daniel would name their love child!" Well, right? :D

Hehe.

Kerri
OMG, I was thinking THE EXACT SAME THING! ROTFLMAO!
(Seriously, how did we not run into each other before? LOL)

Lilith
September 28th, 2005, 12:54 PM
::whooshes in from nowhere and waves arm like a maniac:: hi peoples!! i happen to think that Jack and Daniel make a very, very cute couple.... where do you all get your slash fic from?

Frostfox
September 28th, 2005, 01:14 PM
::whooshes in from nowhere and waves arm like a maniac:: hi peoples!! i happen to think that Jack and Daniel make a very, very cute couple.... where do you all get your slash fic from?

The Alpha Gate
Bunnyfic
Stargate Fan Awards
The Comfort Zone
Area 51 (but it's a bit hit and miss)

Google on any of those and 'Stargate' and you should find 'em.

And then there's THING...

Switch42
September 28th, 2005, 02:17 PM
The Alpha Gate
Bunnyfic
Stargate Fan Awards
The Comfort Zone
Area 51 (but it's a bit hit and miss)

Google on any of those and 'Stargate' and you should find 'em.

And then there's THING...

THING!!!! *VBG*

I also enjoy Pepe's Place: http://www.pepesplace.co.uk/

and Dangermouse's site: http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/dmouse/index.htm

For specific stories, everything on both those sites is wonderful. But I must specifically recommend Dancing in the Dark by Pepe. One of THE MOST BEAUTIFUL stories I have ever read anywhere. Gen, slash, het, nothing holds a candle to this story. IMHO anyway. And also her Sunray Inn series. It's fairly intense and graphic, but does give warnings. So, you might want to go easy on that one if you have a high squick factor.

Dangermouse's Coming Out series is also just fabulous! It's really long and might take you a good week or two to get through. But it is sooooooo worth it.

Feel free to PM me if you want any more info. I have lots of sites bookmarked! :D

Kerri

Lilith
September 28th, 2005, 03:09 PM
thanks peoples ^^!!! i personally go to JD Divas (http://www.jd-divas.com)..... Biblo's my fav author, but they're all really good

wraith816
September 30th, 2005, 07:09 PM
thanks peoples ^^!!! i personally go to JD Divas (http://www.jd-divas.com)..... Biblo's my fav author, but they're all really good

Also, there's a J/D fic rec thread in the fic section of the forum.

On another note, I fed my Abyss addiction today. You can just see how in love they are! *snifflesquee*

L-JADE
September 30th, 2005, 10:22 PM
THING!!!! *VBG*

I also enjoy Pepe's Place: http://www.pepesplace.co.uk/

and Dangermouse's site: http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/dmouse/index.htm

For specific stories, everything on both those sites is wonderful. But I must specifically recommend Dancing in the Dark by Pepe. One of THE MOST BEAUTIFUL stories I have ever read anywhere. Gen, slash, het, nothing holds a candle to this story. IMHO anyway. And also her Sunray Inn series. It's fairly intense and graphic, but does give warnings. So, you might want to go easy on that one if you have a high squick factor.

Dangermouse's Coming Out series is also just fabulous! It's really long and might take you a good week or two to get through. But it is sooooooo worth it.

Feel free to PM me if you want any more info. I have lots of sites bookmarked! :D

Kerri

I also love Pepe's Dancing in the Dark, I think that's her best work. Also like her : The Night before Christmast & Why Don't You Stay. But not too fond of her Sunray Inn Series, too graphic for me. I was reading her fics at Area 52 continuously in 2 weeks and notice that her later stories tend to include Sam as an intruder and OOC, which is the kind of story I personally avoid, but this just IMHO. I was really happy when she makes The Guy Who Love Me into a series, in Area 52, it was indicated as a stand alone story, can't wait for the next installment of this one.

Switch42
November 29th, 2005, 11:52 AM
Not sure who here as seen this yet as I've posted this just about everywhere. Except here until now, for some reason. Anywho, I made a Jack/Daniel vid. It was a collaboration with another online friend of mine. We are very happy with how this turned out and want to spread the Jack/Daniel love! :D

Here's the link: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=L4JIDCXB

Lemme know what you think!

Kerri

Lilith
November 29th, 2005, 04:19 PM
that was beautiful... wonderful choice of song and scenes

Sylouette98
November 29th, 2005, 08:21 PM
Okay, I'm a bit lost...what is "thing"?

L-JADE
November 29th, 2005, 08:26 PM
Since FrostFox seems not around this time, OK I'll do the talkin'...

THING is a relationship between Jack & Daniel as explained in Anais' Dr Jackson Diary (http://www.versaphile.com/anais/index2.asp) it's slash (male/male relationship), NC17 and very-very funny.

Sylouette98
November 29th, 2005, 08:32 PM
Not sure who here as seen this yet as I've posted this just about everywhere. Except here until now, for some reason. Anywho, I made a Jack/Daniel vid. It was a collaboration with another online friend of mine. We are very happy with how this turned out and want to spread the Jack/Daniel love! :D

Here's the link: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=L4JIDCXB

Lemme know what you think!

Kerri

What a great vid! I love it!

Sylouette98
November 29th, 2005, 08:40 PM
Since FrostFox seems not around this time, OK I'll do the talkin'...

THING is a relationship between Jack & Daniel as explained in Anais' Dr Jackson Diary (http://www.versaphile.com/anais/index2.asp) it's slash (male/male relationship), NC17 and very-very funny.

Ah! *as the light blub above my head flickers to life* Thanks for the info!

phoenixblue7500
December 11th, 2005, 04:57 AM
Had never thought to find such a thread. I always thought I´m the last one who still enjoys the friendship between the boys (I´m not very much in slash but I have read a handfull extremly well written slash fanfiction I liked).

Knows someone a good writer who writes Jack/Daniel friendship or slash (if it´s slash than with the focus on the relationship, please not too graphic)?

I miss episodes like Abyss, or The Light so much...

L-JADE
December 11th, 2005, 05:29 AM
I would recommend www.jd-divas.com, they mostly not too graphic, well written & funny.
I like Biblio's, Devra's, Darcy's, Kalimyre's, and mostly the others there as well..

Frostfox
December 11th, 2005, 07:41 AM
I would recommend www.jd-divas.com, they mostly not too graphic, well written & funny.
I like Biblio's, Devra's, Darcy's, Kalimyre's, and mostly the others there as well..

I'd second that and also reccomend http://www.bunnyfic.com/ and the fic section of http://jackslashdaniel.com/, actually I'd reccomend all of jackslashdaniel as a resorce.

I like J/D friendship most of all but well written slash is just the icing on the cake.

FF

phoenixblue7500
December 16th, 2005, 10:59 PM
at L-JADE and FROSTFOX:

Many thanks for your tips. I think I will have for the next weeks many new stories about the boys to read. :)

Frostfox
December 17th, 2005, 05:55 AM
at L-JADE and FROSTFOX:

Many thanks for your tips. I think I will have for the next weeks many new stories about the boys to read. :)

There's some fabulous stuff out there, I highly reccomend http://www.bunnyfic.com/ELG/Ripples.htm as a great general fic with convincing Jack/Daniel interaction, loads of hurt/comfort and it would make a fab episode.

FF, then again, there's always THING...

Switch42
December 17th, 2005, 10:59 AM
Don't know if anyone here is keeping up with this, but Wordgeek posted the latest part of her "The Mind Doesn't Decides" series at Pepe's Place last week (or sometime recently). Yay! I am sooooooooo in love with this series. Here's the link: http://www.pepesplace.co.uk/. I HIGHLY HIGHLY recommend this to everyone. It's so fabulous and so wonderful. :D

That's all. Later!

FallenAngelII
January 27th, 2006, 02:21 AM
I can't believe there hasn't been one created yet... or at least one that's been posted in recently. I mean, come on! One of the cutest and most slash-able couples on TV!

O'Jackson forever!!!!

OK, so I just made this one thread. Let's let the other die out >_>'.

Sam_Carter
March 6th, 2006, 03:51 AM
I'm not a Daniel/Jack slash shipper but i was laughing so much!


I was in pain from laughing so much. Its Michael at the end putting on a camp voice "Jaaaaack. Jaaack you can't do that" that gets me.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAyoHPGNB_0&search=stargate%20jack


i was crying with laughter. Chris and Michael are great.

k8tbug1
March 6th, 2006, 03:55 AM
OMG, I'm in tears from laughing so hard. :lol: :lol:
I'm like you I don't ship those two, but that was a riot!!!!!!!!!!

Willow'sCat
March 6th, 2006, 03:56 AM
I'm not a Daniel/Jack slash shipper but i was laughing so much!


I was in pain from laughing so much. Its Michael at the end putting on a camp voice "Jaaaaack. Jaaack you can't do that" that gets me.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAyoHPGNB_0&search=stargate%20jack


i was crying with laughter. Chris and Michael are great.ROFLMAO! That was so funny, I need to snurch this! :D

GateByte
March 6th, 2006, 04:11 AM
OMG that was hilarious. Also don't ship these two, but man that was great! And the end bit, had me laughing sooo hard. Thanks for the link. :D

Sam_Carter
March 6th, 2006, 04:19 AM
i know! Michael and Chris are great. it was the funniest thing i've ever seen about stargate. When Michael does the camp impression of Daniel & Jack makes me laugh so much! Especially the way he says "Jaaack!"

valaCB
March 6th, 2006, 05:19 AM
I'm not a Daniel/Jack slash shipper but i was laughing so much!


I was in pain from laughing so much. Its Michael at the end putting on a camp voice "Jaaaaack. Jaaack you can't do that" that gets me.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAyoHPGNB_0&search=stargate%20jack


i was crying with laughter. Chris and Michael are great.

Thanks :jack_new_anime06: :daniel: :lol:

Egeria
March 6th, 2006, 05:34 AM
Brilliant...thanks. :D

SnoggingPicard
March 6th, 2006, 06:17 AM
ROFLMAO! OMG, the camp voice was priceless. Thanks for sharing!! :D

Erised
March 6th, 2006, 06:19 AM
OMG I'm in tears here!! :D:D:D BRILLIANT!!!!!!!

xfkirsten
March 6th, 2006, 06:58 AM
ROTFLMAO!!! That is absolutely hilarious!! Thank you for that link! :D

ussrelativity
March 6th, 2006, 07:14 AM
Absolutely hilarious!

cajnjirl
March 6th, 2006, 07:17 AM
LMFAO!!!

Loved Chris! :p

Nerual
March 6th, 2006, 08:06 AM
'Jack, Jack! You can't do that, it's a very special culture'

Absolutely fantastic. That has really lit up my day, thanks for putting it on.

Eirual.

what so daniel and jack arent together???

Nerrad.

Commander Ivanova
March 6th, 2006, 09:10 AM
Thanks for making my day!