The Jack O'Neill/Daniel Jackson slash and friendship thread

[brihana25]

I've often wondered if maybe Jack doesn't have some resentment towards Daniel because of the events in Abyss.

If he resented him or was angry with him, I don't think he would have thanked him at the end.

I think Jack and Daniel are exactly what Michael Shanks said they are - two men who understand, respect, and love each other very deeply. I've pretty well fanwanked Season Seven into being what I want it to be, at least as far as Jack and Daniel and their friendship is concerned. Season Eight I've been very happy with - no fanwanking necessary so far.

[Dani347]

Well, how do you think Sam, Teal'c and Jonas got their idea for helping in Abyss? I think Jack figured out that Daniel found some way to circumvent the rules. But, it would just be going in and endless back and forth as to whether Daniel actually helped (which I believe) or didn't. So, instead, I'll say that I don't think that's the story season 7 was telling. Every reasonable explanation people give, such as Jack was afraid to get close again, or resented him for Abyss, they all sound like pretty good fanwanks, and might make good stories (although an Abyss one would be AU for me) but that's not what I saw on screen. Jack being angry with Daniel would have shown a heck of a lot more emotion and interest than what I saw. There's no way for me to suspend disbelief in those scenes to come up with a reason within the show's universe. For me, the reason for the lack of friendship between them will always be because tptb, for reasons unknown (and I've heard a few doozies) just didn't want to write it.

[dfin25]

But think about it. Daniel, the constant rule breaking pain in Jack's ass, who's favorite hobbies besides rock sniffing are breaking rules and defying authority, left Jack to be tortured to death countless times at the hand's of Ba'al. Because he wouldn't break a rule. That really had to piss Jack off just a little. It probably doesn't help that Daniel called him a stupid son of a ***** shortly before he died either. I'm just saying it's possible.

[GateAngel]

I always thought that they cut the scenes between Jack and Daniel to push the JS ship, because Jack had more chemistry with Teal'c and Daniel or something like that.
But in Lost City 2 Jack had a good farewell scene with Teal'c, so the relationship bewteen Jack and Sam can't be an issue.
It's not even the neverending excuse that there was no time, because this scene for LC2 was very brief.
Now I really can't find a reason.
I'm sure there is one and I'm scared to know what it is.

Scenes can be cut for a number of reasons that have nothing to do with what agenda if any writers or show runners might want to promote.

Michael Shanks was getting married around that time of filming and RDA was planning a birthday party for his daughter. It might simply have been that one or both of the actors was not available for filming that part of the scene and it had to be cut.

I remember that a friend of mine who used to work on the set took me and my friend Ruth to lunch at the Subway restaurant across the street from the Studio and gave us his copy of the daily shoot schedule for Double Jeopardy that day. It was the Monday after the Gatecon convention and RDA was suppose to be in the actual scene with Carter and her robot clone when the clone was dying. He was suppose to be kneeling down beside her and was suppose to be in a scene with Teal'c. However RDA changed his schedule for whatever reason and came back on tuesday instead and those scenes ended up being shot the way we saw them in the final version that was aired with RDA's scene of him leaning against the wall filmed on tuesday and Amanda's scenes filmed on Monday then spliced together.


I for one fully understand the wanting of more of the old Jack and Daniel friendship scenes that seem to be missing now, but I think maybe we need to keep in mind that sometimes it isn't the writers or producers that make the choice to cut scenes, but that sometimes the actor's have reason and issues in their personal lives that causes their schedules get limited which in turn limits their screen time.

[Madeleine]

But think about it. Daniel...left Jack to be tortured to death countless times at the hand's of Ba'al. Because he wouldn't break a rule. That really had to piss Jack off just a little.

No, I don't think so. Jack's a soldier. He has left men behind, no matter how he may want to think of himself. He abandoned Henry Boyd because there was naff all he could have done, and even *trying* to help would (a) be fruitless and (b) get others killed too. Daniel explained to Jack that if he tried to break a rule "the others would stop [him]". And then where would Jack be? He'd have gone from being tortured to death at regular intervals with a friend to comfort him between-times to being tortured to death at regular intervals alone.

Daniel didn't just turn up and say 'Here we are, sorry, nothing I can do besides chat'; he offered Jack ascension. Yes, I know that wasn't what Jack wanted. But it was all Daniel could see that he had to offer. Bearing in mind that Daniel had recently felt ascension was worth dying for, it seems to me that he was offering Jack something he thought pretty damm good, pretty worthwhile. Better than torture.

Jack chose to cling to life and to hope for a rescue; and later to ask for death. So when Daniel realised that Jack didn't simply need a bit of persuasion to ascend but simply wouldn't do it, he was forced to think around the problem a bit more. The solution he came up with was pretty subtle, and I don't think he can be blamed for not having thought of it straight away.

Jack knows Daniel pretty well. He must have realised, when Daniel returned after leaving Jack alone (and leaving him alone, they both knew, was a Big Deal on account of how fragile was Jack's state of mind) and said "there was something I had to do", then reassured him that help was on the way just moments before it arrived, that Daniel was at the root of it all. Jack's "Thank you" and the "... groundhog day?" and lack of any animosity or resentment at all in that final scene says everything I need to know about how Jack felt about Daniel's role in that episode of his life.

Even if Daniel hadn't been able to 'do' anything, I don't think that the mere fact of his *presence* should be undervalued. Dying in pieces, losing one's mind, losing one's soul, feeling yourself about to break, all are horrible things to have to go through, and going through it with someone who cares for you there to offer support has got to be better than going it alone.

A few months later Jack - still aware of the 'rules' that Daniel had to follow, and of what had befallen Orlin and his adopted world - asked Daniel to break the rules. He thought saving Abydos was worth the risk to Daniel, or stopping Anubis was, or both. And Daniel disappeared, with the task he was attempting unfinished. Even if Jack had been a bit narked with Daniel that ought to have made the point to Jack that Daniel was effectively powerless when it came to taking any action of consequence.

In Orpheus (paraphrasing ahead ) when Daniel said 'I should have done something' Jack's reply was 'We established that wouldn't have helped'. So he clearly understands.

Like Dani I can't come up with any scenario for why s7 Jack is so often distant from Daniel. (The best I can manage is 'Jack's too worried he'd lose Daniel to get close to him again' which is pretty poor, and doesn't explain why he suddenly does care for him again come s8.) I'd *like* to have a reason, since I like my television to make sense, but the 'lingering resentment following Abyss' reason doesn't fit at all, for me. So I have to go with the 'offscreen' theory of J&D's friendship for s7.

[Dani347]

But think about it. Daniel, the constant rule breaking pain in Jack's ass, who's favorite hobbies besides rock sniffing are breaking rules and defying authority, left Jack to be tortured to death countless times at the hand's of Ba'al. Because he wouldn't break a rule. That really had to piss Jack off just a little. It probably doesn't help that Daniel called him a stupid son of a ***** shortly before he died either. I'm just saying it's possible.

Well, always thought he felt he couldn't break the rule. Not, "Oh, screw you Jack, I can do what you want but, I'm just going to sit here and enjoy the view." When he found a way around the rule, he took it.

And, I really don't think Jack is so petty and juvenile and on par with being a two year old sucking his thumb and throwing his toys, and has such a high tendency to hold a grudge against a man who went through a horrific ordeal (radiation poisoning) ascends, but then is kicked back to earth with no memory just because he called him a stupid son of a *****. Yeah, not going up on his list of favorite Daniel moments, and I could see him being angry in the moment. Maybe a little cool for a couple of days (since we don't know how much time passed between Menace and Meridian, do we?)But, these are two men whose friendship is built on deep caring and some pretty knock down arguments. It wouldn't be hard to imagine that they've both said some awful things to each other plenty of times. And, I really don't think being called an sob would be enough to get Jack reaching for the smelling salts.

[Dana_Jeanne]

I can't imagine that Jack would be pissed off at Daniel for "Abyss" especially after watching the end scene when they were obviously very close. As for Jack holding a grudge because of what happened in "Menace" or any pre-Meridian episode, I would imagine that watching Daniel melt away in horrible agony probably wiped the past right out of his mind.

S7 as far as Daniel/Jack frendship moments go was pretty bad. I can't explain it away like you can, Madeleine (lucky girl), because the few times Jack and Daniel were actually in the same scene together, the was not even a glimmer of friendship on Jack's face. I would have liked to see Jack smile once in a while. Still would actually.

And don't get me started on THE MAJOR disapointment of S7: Evolution. ARGH!

Dana Jeanne

[Feli]

Madeleine, that's an excellent analysis of Abyss IMO!

[GateAngel]

<Jack chose to cling to life and to hope for a rescue; and later to ask for death. So when Daniel realised that Jack didn't simply need a bit of persuasion to ascend but simply wouldn't do it, he was forced to think around the problem a bit more. The solution he came up with was pretty subtle, and I don't think he can be blamed for not having thought of it straight away.>

S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S
FOR LOCKDOWN

After having seen the 8th season episode Lockdown and in it we learn that Ancients can take control of mortal bodies of other people to avoid detection, I wondering if that was even Teal'c going into general Hammond's office in Abyss to offer the solution or if it was Daniel. I mean Teal'c still had a symbiote at that point which would have taken care of the side effects to Teal'cs body reacting to the 'infection' of Daniel's brief presence.

Just something I've mulled over since seeing Lockdown.

[Dana_Jeanne]

If he resented him or was angry with him, I don't think he would have thanked him at the end.

I think Jack and Daniel are exactly what Michael Shanks said they are - two men who understand, respect, and love each other very deeply. I've pretty well fanwanked Season Seven into being what I want it to be, at least as far as Jack and Daniel and their friendship is concerned. Season Eight I've been very happy with - no fanwanking necessary so far.

I agree with you, Bri. And if you could please fanwank S7 for me, I'd appreciate it! So far I'm having a really hard time making those two into friends, never mind the best friends RDA has said they are!

Dana Jeanne

[Madeleine]

December, that would have been before any of us had seen the second half of s8.

Anyone got anything else to say about Jack & Daniel's friendship in the light of the last ten eps?

[Frostfox]

December, that would have been before any of us had seen the second half of s8.

Anyone got anything else to say about Jack & Daniel's friendship in the light of the last ten eps?

Um, the SGC flag never looked so good?

Sorry, Foxy, shallow and proud.

[Willow]

Nothing wrong with being shallow

[Mirnell]

:-) I pride myself on not being shallow, but I have a screencap of the flag scene as my desktop wallpaper at the moment... so maybe its not shallow, its appreciating beauty.

Mirnell

[Tucker Case]

Anyone got anything else to say about Jack & Daniel's friendship in the light of the last ten eps?

Yes: There's only so much happily-ever-after a girl can take.

I did love Jack and Daniel throughout Season 8. Whatever issues needed fanwanking around in Season 7 seemed to be behind them and their scenes together were a respite from everything else that was going on, so relaxed and funny and secure in each other's pockets were they.

They were good, solid, unshakeable, they were picking out curtains, that friendship thing was such a done deal not even

Spoiler:

Daniel's apparent death

could upset their equilibrium.

Which was exactly the problem, particularly in those last ten episodes.

Not for Daniel, so much. While he and Jack were in their honeymoon season, he had other things to keep him on his toes.

Spoiler:

He was in Russia, he was in space, here on the Prometheus, there on a Replicator ship, he went from salo in Moscow to waffles on another plane of existence, he was naquadah trading on far planets with truly alien aliens, standing up to a Goa'ulded Kinsey, hounding Oma for answers, seeing a side of Anubis he'd never imagined before, seeing a side of Hammond that too rarely came out to play, he was holding court in "Danny's World" and going every which way, emotionally, with a pretty whack-job in a catsuit before ending up naked in Jack's office.

That boy was a going concern.

And I think it says a lot that he needed to be thrown into so many extreme situations and surrounded by so many big and colourful guest characters (played by such high-octane guest actors) in order to create the same kind of intensity and dramatic tension he used to get from just sitting on Jack's couch, ignoring a beer.

And, since Jack wasn't getting anywhere near that same level of action, he seemed left behind and painfully bored and disengaged much of the time. Unless he had

Spoiler:

Maybourne in his face, Ba'al in his gateroom or Daniel naked in his office

, he couldn't rouse himself to be more than functionally "there" (and he was so pussy-footed into the late season scenes with Carter I can't even credit him with stepping to the plate in those, he was given no chance to).

When it's merely

Spoiler:

the manner of Daniel's return, though, and not the fact of it that surprises Jack

- when he's not only unsurprised by it but had been expecting it all along, so confident are they in each other - then it's probably time to close the book.

So, while I was very happy to see them so back on track, relationship-wise, it was a bittersweet deal. Such happily-ever-after signals an end. A good end, and a feel-good end, but an end all the same.

TC