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The Jack O'Neill/Daniel Jackson slash and friendship thread

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    #31
    For me it just seems that the writers haven't learned how to work with RDA's reduced schedule. They seem to be only able to focus on one Jack relationship at a time and the latter half of season 7 seemed to be the Jack/Sam relationship and the Jack/Daniel and Jack/Teal'c relationships seemed to fall by the wayside. I truly believe that with some creativity they could find a way to show all of the inter-team relationships even with RDA's reduced schedule.

    It was, is, and always will be GREEN

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      #32
      Originally posted by Shipperahoy
      For me it just seems that the writers haven't learned how to work with RDA's reduced schedule. They seem to be only able to focus on one Jack relationship at a time and the latter half of season 7 seemed to be the Jack/Sam relationship and the Jack/Daniel and Jack/Teal'c relationships seemed to fall by the wayside. I truly believe that with some creativity they could find a way to show all of the inter-team relationships even with RDA's reduced schedule.
      ITA. They could have showed more Jack and Daniel or Jack and Teal'c in so many ways. Teal'c and Jack could have had a Proper Conversation during Death Knell. Jack could have been a little bit enthusiastic about going to the jungle to rescue Daniel. Jack could have asked how Daniel was after witnessing a close friend's sudden death, or Daniel gone to see how Jack was recovering. Jack and Teal'c could have been spotted leaving the weights room together, talking.

      It wouldn't take long in any of those cases, only a few seconds perhaps, to inject some friendship. The D/S chat over 'Signs' lasted for all of three lines, and yet it's one of the moments everyone remembers.

      Madeleine

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        #33
        Originally posted by Liebestraume
        Okay, I'll bite and ask the stupid (and, perhaps, anathema) question: is this relationship still the most important on the show? And if so, why? (Knowing that we each have our own preference, I haste to add that I am merely asking the question, not to suggest what the answer should or shouldn't be.)
        I think that the Jack anbd Daniel reletionship was the basis for the show, and the whole team feel had to be built on Jack the military and Daniel the morality. And how these two people could work togather and be friends(and save the world...)
        Jack has go to bat for Daniel many times early on. Remember in the ending arc of S1 where Jack and the team followed Daniel's plan to stop Apothsis. And they did it on just Daniels word. I fell that Daniel has done many things not just for the Team but or to find his wife(her son stop the gould save the planet...) but for jack. And Jack has deffred to Daniel's judgement on many occaisons
        I'm not here man
        Hello it was me

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          #34
          This may be a dumb question but what does ITA stand for?

          It was, is, and always will be GREEN

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            #35
            ITA: I totally agree
            I'm a girl! A girly girly girl!

            Okay, you got me. I can't accept change. This message may look like it was typed on a computer and posted on the internet, but it is actually cave drawings delivered by smoke signals.

            Naquada Enhanced Chastity Belts -SG1 edition. On sale now! Heck, I'll give them away

            Daniel Jackson Appreciation and Discussion -because he's more than pretty

            http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=89


            Daniel Jackson: The Beacon of Hope and The Man Who Opened the Stargate

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              #36
              I'm one of those who miss the Jack and Daniel interaction. I think TPTB could have done better. Because the have lost focus on that relationship (and Jack and Teal'c, Daniel and Sam, Teal'c and Sam, Daniel and Teal'c) they have missed out on many an opportunity to make the storylines go that one step further.

              I hope that this is remedied in Season 8.
              No snurching any Pictures I post!! (without my permission)

              sigpic

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                #37
                Originally posted by Liebestraume
                Okay, I'll bite and ask the stupid (and, perhaps, anathema) question: is this relationship still the most important on the show? And if so, why? (Knowing that we each have our own preference, I haste to add that I am merely asking the question, not to suggest what the answer should or shouldn't be.)


                I don't think it's the most important one, although it is my favourite one. IMO all of the relationships between the team are equally as important. It was more prominent in the earlier seasons, and I think maybe it was more important then, but since the relationships with Sam & Teal'c & Jonas developed, they became just as important. Unfortunately, that has left a lot less time for Jack & Daniel's relationship.


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                  #38
                  Originally posted by ecm101
                  I think that the Jack anbd Daniel reletionship was the basis for the show, and the whole team feel had to be built on Jack the military and Daniel the morality. And how these two people could work togather and be friends(and save the world...)
                  To a certain degree, I agree with that. Drama thrives on conflict, and in Jack and Daniel one seemed to find the prefect antitheses of our usual morality debate: the realist vs. the idealist. This conflict, as well as its inherent parity, was the underlying theme of the original movie, and the fact that these two men, despite of their differences, worked so well together was a testament to their courage and determination.

                  Early season(s) of the series continued to build upon this theme. I have a hard time believing Jack and Daniel were already "best friends" at the onset of the series: they both had been (somewhat) loners from vastly different background when they first met (in the movie), and the original Abydos mission was too brief for a friendship to develop. That shared experience, however, had provided the genesis for a profound friendship, and their working together again in SGC gave that friendship the time and opportunity to grow.

                  However, the story has come a long way since its inception and neither Jack nor Daniel is the man he used to be. Instead of merely being the seasoned soldier he was once perceived, Jack showed his inate nobility, his willingness to bear the burden of his conscience for the greater good (Unnatrual Selection comes to mind). And Daniel seems to be more spiritual than intellectual these days. So I am not sure if the original premise holds as much as it once did.

                  Just my 2c.
                  Last edited by Liebestraume; 15 May 2004, 04:02 PM.
                  In all matters of opinion, our adversaries are insane. ~ Oscar Wilde

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                    #39
                    Originally posted by epiphany
                    Liebestraum it might be easier to buy that point of view IF they'd actually made it an arc on the show. Instead it was there one season(or three actually), gone the next, never to return.

                    This isn't evolution. ......
                    There is no denying the decreased screen time for Jack and/or Daniel or the near absence of overt affection; so, I take the point that a new viewer may not be able to appreciate the bond between these two characters. However, I think part of the reward of being a veteran viewer, or a new viewer who makes the effort to catch up, is to know the characters and what made them who they are.

                    By design, TV series are much more open-ended than movies. As the story evolves, so must the characters and, hence, their relationships. The early seasons were a time for Jack and Daniel to get to know one another, a time for their mutual respect as well as affection to take shape. IMHO the apparent lack of overt affection in later seasons does not diminish (what I perceive to be) the deepening bond between them. It came through the subtext of the show: two men from worlds apart became friends, and that friendship subsequently transformed them. As Jack and Daniel become increasingly complex individuals, their simple affection grows into a connection more spiritual, and the original premise of the show (i.e., the "realism vs. idealism" debate) encompasses even loftier concerns than before.

                    Whether or not the change was "for the better" is, of course, a matter of perspective. Nevertheless, TPTB perhaps could have handled the evolution with more care than they had. Maybe there should have been story arcs depicting a gradual transition. However, I cannot judge the wisdom in TPTB's creative decision, or if it was at all intentional. Now matter how the current state compares to what-the-show-was, it is at least engaging enough to not only "hook" me but also make me care about the characters; otherwise, I wouldn't have spent the time catching up on the previous seasons or lurking on this board.
                    In all matters of opinion, our adversaries are insane. ~ Oscar Wilde

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                      #40
                      Originally posted by shelsfc
                      IMO all of the relationships between the team are equally as important. It was more prominent in the earlier seasons, and I think maybe it was more important then, but since the relationships with Sam & Teal'c & Jonas developed, they became just as important. Unfortunately, that has left a lot less time for Jack & Daniel's relationship.
                      I agree with that to a great extend. Although I favor some characters over others, the dynamic of each pairing within SG-1 appeals to me in its unique way.

                      Much has been said about Jack's growing relationship with Teal'c or with Sam, and I think Daniel's relationships with others have also developed. I very much appreciate the natural affinity between Daniel and Sam as well as their emotional closeness. There is often humor in the "odd couple" pairing Daniel and Teal'c, yet what I like most is how their bond was forged. It wasn't a coincidence that Daniel had to be the one to destroy Thor's Hammer (which could have freed Sha're) or that Teal'c had to kill Amonet/Sha're. The difficult choices these men faced in order to save each other, and the subsequent mutual understanding, gave meaning to their friendship.

                      Given that the show now has a more ensemble feel than it did at the onset, it is difficult for each storyline to receive the amount of "air time" it merits. As some people mentioned up-thread, hopefully TPTB will give each storyline the amount of attention it deserves to make up in quality where quantity falls short.
                      In all matters of opinion, our adversaries are insane. ~ Oscar Wilde

                      Comment


                        #41
                        and the original premise of the show (i.e., the "realism vs. idealism" debate) encompasses even loftier concerns than before.

                        Only in my opinion the show doesn't encompass loftier concerns than before. It had become more and more pedestrian. And I never saw the debate as realism vs. idealism. Just as different ways of going about trying to reach the same point. I don't think Daniel was unrealistic, I think he had a different focus. And I don't think Jack was necessarily any more realistic than Daniel was, he too had a different focus. You can't do Jack's job with Daniel's focus and you can't do Daniel's job with Jack's focus.

                        It used to feel epic but personal, which led it depth. Now it just feels....showy. It doesn't feel epic. The bad guys have become jokes for the most part. Anubis was such a cliched joke. This is largely because the personal connection of any of the characters both to each other and to what they are fighting has just diminished in favor of bigger explosions.

                        It's like they've become shallow puddles where they used to be deep wells. Their relationships are all surface level, they used to seem like family. Now they seem like a bunch of co-workers who don't dislike each other.

                        TPTB haven't given quantity or quality and I don't see why they would start in Season 8 when they can just coast as they have done the past couple seasons.

                        How this relates to the Jack and Daniel question is that the downplaying of that relationship is a big symptom of it.

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                          #42
                          Originally posted by epiphany
                          And I never saw the debate as realism vs. idealism. Just as different ways of going about trying to reach the same point. I don't think Daniel was unrealistic, I think he had a different focus. And I don't think Jack was necessarily any more realistic than Daniel was, he too had a different focus.
                          There is no doubt that both Jack and Daniel have noble ambitions, yet what they consider "the right thing" may not always be the same. And, even when they have a common goal, their approaches often differ. What you call focus, I see it as an echo of the man's experience and fundamental philosophy. It's not so much that one character is or was more or less of a realist than the other, now or back-then; rather, it's the reflection they provoke in the viewer(s) that gives them significance. Granted, SG-1 does not pose "the great moral dilemma" all the time, but it does in small measure every now and then. I do not think that aspect of the show, or of the Jack/Daniel relationship, has changed, even if its focus and tone have shifted a little.

                          (As for the rest, the villains have been somewhat cliche-ish ever since Day One and the "good guys" never take themselves too seriously. Sure, there is ample room for improvement but that's a whole other topic I won't get into here.)
                          Last edited by Liebestraume; 16 May 2004, 08:29 AM.
                          In all matters of opinion, our adversaries are insane. ~ Oscar Wilde

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                            #43
                            Originally posted by Liebestraume
                            [COLOR=Purple]There is no denying the decreased screen time for Jack and/or Daniel or the near absence of overt affection; so, I take the point that a new viewer may not be able to appreciate the bond between these two characters. However, I think part of the reward of being a veteran viewer, or a new viewer who makes the effort to catch up, is to know the characters and what made them who they are.
                            But, I don't think veteran viewers should have to go with (imo) the total abscence of affection just because they know it used to be there. It seems like a pretty shoddy reward, to me. "Hey, we showed you they acted like friends before, you got your day in the sun, you don't need to see anymore. What Jack acts like he doesn't care about Daniel? Hate is too strong an emotion for what Jack apparently doesn't feel about Daniel? Yeah, but he showed affection to Daniel in episode 15 of season 2. So, you know they're friends. Oh, btw, we're also not going to show the inside of the SGC anymore. We showed it before, you've been watching the show, and you know it's there." I know that some people disagree with me about Jack not acting like he cares about Daniel, and that's fine, I'm just saying how I feel, and why I don't agree that tptb should drop something just because veteran fans know that's how it was before.



                            As Jack and Daniel become increasingly complex individuals, their simple affection grows into a connection more spiritual
                            Again, it's a matter of opinion, but I don't see any spiritual connection between them. I see no connection. And, I do think a new viewer should be able to see something if it's there. Because tptb would continue to show it. I doubt any new viewer would see a spiritual connection. Or any connection at all. I'm a long term viewer, and I don't see it. And, I never saw their affection as simple. It was a strong, deep affection. I don't think anyone watching the show now should go back to old episodes and be suddenly surprised that Jack and Daniel were pretty good friends. That isn't developing the friendship to a different plane. To me, that's just dropping an important aspect of the show. I want to see that Jack and Daniel are still friends. That, at the very least, Jack cares about Daniel as much as he cares about Sam and Teal'c. Because I'm not even seeing that. I don't want to say, "well, he used to care, so no matter what else I see now, no matter what I see to the contrary, just because it used to be that way, I'm just going to assume it still is that way."
                            I'm a girl! A girly girly girl!

                            Okay, you got me. I can't accept change. This message may look like it was typed on a computer and posted on the internet, but it is actually cave drawings delivered by smoke signals.

                            Naquada Enhanced Chastity Belts -SG1 edition. On sale now! Heck, I'll give them away

                            Daniel Jackson Appreciation and Discussion -because he's more than pretty

                            http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=89


                            Daniel Jackson: The Beacon of Hope and The Man Who Opened the Stargate

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                              #44
                              Originally posted by Dani347
                              But, I don't think veteran viewers should have to go with (imo) the total abscence of affection just because they know it used to be there. It seems like a pretty shoddy reward, to me.
                              Apologies if I didn't make myself clear. When I said
                              Originally posted by Liebestraume
                              ... part of the reward of being a veteran viewer, or a new viewer who makes the effort to catch up, is to know the characters and what made them who they are.
                              by no ways was I implying that anyone should have to go with the total abscence of affection. Simply that someone with the time, and perhaps emotional, investment in the show would understand the characters and discern their established bond, despite of its subtlety (or its apparent absence, depending on one's perspective). And, because of that, he/she would appreciate the nuance that other people could miss.

                              Originally posted by Dani347
                              And, I never saw their affection as simple. It was a strong, deep affection.

                              It is strong and deep, but it started out as simple nonetheless. The closest analogy that I can come up with is this: there are friends who accept me because they love me, and there are the friends who understand me without me ever having to utter a word.


                              Originally posted by Dani347
                              I don't think anyone watching the show now should go back to old episodes and be suddenly surprised that Jack and Daniel were pretty good friends. That isn't developing the friendship to a different plane. To me, that's just dropping an important aspect of the show. I want to see that Jack and Daniel are still friends. That, at the very least, Jack cares about Daniel as much as he cares about Sam and Teal'c.
                              I agree, and I doubt anyone paying attention would be suddenly surprised that Jack and Daniel have been pretty good friends. In fact, I do think Jack cares about Daniel as much as he does Sam and Teal'c; their relationships just have different natures.
                              Last edited by Liebestraume; 16 May 2004, 10:26 AM.
                              In all matters of opinion, our adversaries are insane. ~ Oscar Wilde

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                                #45
                                discern their established bond, despite of its subtlety (or its apparent absence, depending on one's perspective). And, because of that, he/she would appreciate the nuance that other people could miss.
                                But, established bonds can change. Just because they were friends, doesn't mean that it's a given that they still are. Again, it's a matter of perspective, but for me, I don't see evidence that they're still friends, except for the occasional bone they throw at the viewers so that they can counter any complaints with, "But, didn't you see that scene in that episode? Stop being greedy!" I don't see any nuances of friendship. And, if they are going to show that Jack by and large (with those bones as the exceptions) cares about Daniel about as much as he cares about a piece of lint, they had better show me why it's like that. You show them being close friends, or you can bloody well show why they aren't. And, again, this is all opinion, and some people might see them being shown as friends. I don't. It'll always be one of the most disappointing and pointless things they've done to the show for me.

                                In fact, I do think Jack cares about Daniel as much as he does Sam and Teal'c; their relationships just have different natures.
                                And, we'll have to agree to disagree here.
                                I'm a girl! A girly girly girl!

                                Okay, you got me. I can't accept change. This message may look like it was typed on a computer and posted on the internet, but it is actually cave drawings delivered by smoke signals.

                                Naquada Enhanced Chastity Belts -SG1 edition. On sale now! Heck, I'll give them away

                                Daniel Jackson Appreciation and Discussion -because he's more than pretty

                                http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=89


                                Daniel Jackson: The Beacon of Hope and The Man Who Opened the Stargate

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