The Jack O'Neill/Daniel Jackson slash and friendship thread

[shelsfc]

But what I wish they'd realize is that Jack and Daniel's friendship is not just "banter", it was warmth and caring as well mixed in with that verbal(and sometimes non-verbal) back and forth.

I do agree with that. It would be great to see more episodes like Abyss where we can really see how much they do care about each other, and the genuine strength of their friendship, but if we don't, it is at least good to have some of that banter there, I have to admit I do enjoy it!

[epiphany]

They actually DID cut the Jack and Daniel scene... I have a copy of the script. I'll try to dig it up and post the original Jack/Daniel dialogue.

I was plenty surprised when I watched the show and didn't see the 'farewell' scene between J/D, small though it was. Especially since Sam and Teal'c got wonderful goodbye scenes - Teal'c's especially. That was a thing of beauty.

That scene cut was pretty much Mr. Straw for me... o_O

Oh please do, please do. I so want to see it. You mean there was a Jack and Daniel scene in the script and they cut it out. ::mumbles unpublishable thoughts:: For some reason, with this crew, it doesn't surprise me in the slightest.

Apparently, in Fall-Out(from DVD commentary), during the corridor scene, near the end where Daniel's upset about the way the negotiations have been going and Jack turns to Daniel, puts his hands on shoulders and tells him he'll take care of it? Well, apparently how that came about was Martin Wood told RDA to do something bigger with his hands(he was just fiddling with his sleeve or something and Martin wanted more movement), so RDA did shoulder thing and as he was walking away he made the comment that he bet they'd never use it in the final cut. (of course the meant they had to use it, just to prove him wrong )

Makes one wonder what else they've been cutting that RDA would actually comment on it.

[auralan]

I think they're good friends, but maybe not best friends anymore. Jack and Teal'c seemed to become closer friends when Daniel was ascended and that relationship seems on par with Jack and Daniel's friendship now. They're different kinds of friendships, but I see them as equally important to Jack.

As for the ship issue, I don't really see it effecting or diminishing the friendships amongst the team, but I realize others have wildly divergent views on the issue.

[Dani347]

Oh please do, please do. I so want to see it. You mean there was a Jack and Daniel scene in the script and they cut it out. ::mumbles unpublishable thoughts:: For some reason, with this crew, it doesn't surprise me in the slightest.

Apparently, in Fall-Out(from DVD commentary), during the corridor scene, near the end where Daniel's upset about the way the negotiations have been going and Jack turns to Daniel, puts his hands on shoulders and tells him he'll take care of it? Well, apparently how that came about was Martin Wood told RDA to do something bigger with his hands(he was just fiddling with his sleeve or something and Martin wanted more movement), so RDA did shoulder thing and as he was walking away he made the comment that he bet they'd never use it in the final cut. (of course the meant they had to use it, just to prove him wrong )

Makes one wonder what else they've been cutting that RDA would actually comment on it.

See, that (among a myriad of other things) makes me furious. First, they had to cut out a full on scene (no small, oh they're friends so we don't have to show it type hoohah) with Daniel. Just Daniel. They had something, and they couldn't use it? And, interesting that it's specifically the Daniel scene.

And, then, just in case I possibly could believe it wasn't on purpose (similar to believing that donkeys fly in golden sequined tutus) we have RDA himself knowing that they cut out J/D scenes and specifically points it out. Didn't they want to cut the scene with Jack cleaning his gun and grieving over Daniel after Meridian? And only left it in because the scene ran short and they had to use it?

So, given all of this, I don't buy that they're trying to establish how close Jack and Daniel are by the extremely unorthodox and frankly stupid method of not showing them act as friends. I don't buy that their hands are tied because of RDA's reduced schedule. No, I think they're doing everything in their power to diminish the friendship. And, I won't even begin to try to speculate on why, because it would be nothing but full out insults on the writers. Because there's no actual logical reason for doing so.

[maboroshi]

Oh please do, please do. I so want to see it. You mean there was a Jack and Daniel scene in the script and they cut it out. ::mumbles unpublishable thoughts:: For some reason, with this crew, it doesn't surprise me in the slightest.

Okay, I've dug up the script - but because of the large unfriendly "NO PORTION OF THIS SCRIPT MAY BE YADDA YADDA'D" IN ANY MEDIUM YADDA" paragraph on the front, I'll refrain from quoting here. (Don't want to get Gateworld in doody.) PM me and I'll give you the exact dialogue.

On looking it over again, I see they've just cut three lines of dialogue and reaction shots from J and D... but those lines and those looks were to include worlds of meaning... They follow the "I know" line.

I can't see where you could justify cutting this character interaction scene on the basis of time - it wouldn't have taken more than a few seconds. But it was those seconds that were needed to round out O'Neill's goodbyes to the ENTIRE team.

I'm not going to bother speculating why they did it - we'll never know for certain at this point. But it couldn't hurt to ask Joe M about it if someone's going to Gatecon.

[epiphany]

Do we really need speculate? It would be pointless to ask Joe M, he'll just come up with the "oh we ran short of time" excuse as usual. They couldn't have trimmed bits of battle sequences or one or two seconds here and there of them walking someplace, nooooOO.

They just had to cut Daniel's scene with Jack, while his teammates had them. They couldn't have cut out Carter's ridiculous attempt to yet again talk about her feelings with Jack(as if once in Part 1 weren't enough and this time was just after she's taken over command, how very professional ::eyerolls:: ) They couldn't have trimmed a few seconds here and a few seconds there of them walking places or shooting at those wonderfully ineffectual "supersoldiers" or anything really important like that.

PS: I've PM'd you but you could have PM'd me first.

[Dani347]

I'm trying to think of some way they could have salvaged the scene they did have. Played the way it was was unsatisfactory. (I'm being generous here) But, how's about this?

First, Jack and Daniel are sitting closer. They don't have to be neck and neck, but just a little closer. Daniel starts to say, "You know I would have...." Jack, because he's actually aware and alert while Daniel is talking, interrupts him by laying a hand on his arm (and, do not tell me that would be too touchy feely, or that they're so close that not only don't they need to talk, but any form of touch is verboten as well) and he looks at Daniel and says, "I know," like he meant it.

I mean, not only did they cut a scene, but what little they had left, the only way you'd pick up that they were friends was if you had been watching the show from before and knew they had been.

[keshou]

First, Jack and Daniel are sitting closer. They don't have to be neck and neck, but just a little closer. Daniel starts to say, "You know I would have...." Jack, because he's actually aware and alert while Daniel is talking, interrupts him by laying a hand on his arm (and, do not tell me that would be too touchy feely, or that they're so close that not only don't they need to talk, but any form of touch is verboten as well) and he looks at Daniel and says, "I know," like he meant it.

I've always thought you could have kept the scene as written (at least written as we saw it) and it would have had much more impact if the actors had played it differently. If Jack had just looked Daniel in the eye, even from across the room, and said "I know" with a little intensity, it wouldn't have been as flat. As it was it just ended up being a scene that didn't move the story along *or* reveal any emotional connection between the characters. It was okay, just could have been better.

I did thing the banter scenes and the Jack/Daniel scenes on the planet in Lost City I were quite good.

[epiphany]

A big part of the problem was Jack's lackluster response. He seems annoyed and half asleep, like he just doesn't give a darn and wants him to shut up. Meanwhile everyone else gets these heartfelt scenes.

I know those across the rooms things CAN work. Has anyone watched the Horatio Hornblower movies on A & E? It's set in the Royal Navy, late 18th century. Horatio Hornblower and Archie Kennedy are best friends--they were midshipman together, they have been serving as Lieutenants together on the same ship. In the sixth movie called "Retribution", Archie makes a great sacrifice for Horatio. Something which, in Horatio's mind, was an even bigger sacrifice than death itself. Archie gives up his "good name" in a tribunal which was looking to use Horatio as a scapegoat to hang blame on. Horatio walks in just after Archie has done it and they look at each other from across the room--there is such a connection there. Even though the director chose to use some "slo-mo" photography, it still worked really well.

I think Rick and Michael are fine enough actors to pull something like that off. In fact we've seen them communicate alot non-verbally before, mostly in earlier seasons. But they have to be blocked in the scenes properly to do it and the directors have to give them the okay to do it. If they believe things like that are just going to be cut anyway, why should they bother to do them?

[Liebestraume]

... I think this Reletionship was the most important in the show and gave it the best feel. ......

Okay, I'll bite and ask the stupid (and, perhaps, anathema) question: is this relationship still the most important on the show? And if so, why? (Knowing that we each have our own preference, I haste to add that I am merely asking the question, not to suggest what the answer should or shouldn't be.)

Some people said up-thread that, if you were to come to the show amid S7, you wouldn't have known J/D were much closer; I agree with that. Speaking for myself (who had started watching only a few months ago), I thought the most prominent dynamic had been that between the team and each relationship was unique in its own way.

Having watched the original motion picture, I understand that J/D was the only pairing back then. I can see it being the predominant one, too, in the early seasons. However, the series has a somewhat different tone from the movie and all relationships have evolved on the show. Could it be possible that now no one relationship is supposed to be more important than another -- they are all merely different?

[Dani347]

For myself, if I had just come in to the show this season, not only wouldn't I have known that Jack and Daniel used to be close, but I wouldn't have known that Jack cared one bit about Daniel. Watching it, without any prior knowledge, I would have thought that Jack cared about Sam, Teal'c, Hammond, Janet, the rest of the SGC, Jacob, Pete, Thor, the Supersoldiers, and the nonexistant lint on his spotless uniform about 100 X more than he cared for Daniel. And, you (general you) may disagree, but that's how I see it, and I don't see this as a natural evolution, and certainly not an acceptable one. It's a devolution, if that's a word.


The thing is, I never believed that Jack cared so much about Daniel that he didn't have any time or concern to spare for Sam or Teal'c. For me, while it may not seem possible, it was for Jack and Daniel to be best friends and still have Jack be very close to Sam and Teal'c and feel like a family. So, I never thought it was necessary for Sam and Teal'c to "get their turn" because I never felt they had been neglected. I never thought that "now we have to make things fairer" because it never had been unfair to me. And, if I had thought that they needed to change things, I think they've dropped Daniel down way farther than is justifiable.

It's not just a matter of not showing them as best friends. Although since I still felt that way for three years of the show, which was after the movie) and also felt a strong connection in Abyss, which was season 6, I just don't buy that now it's just changed. I don't think change is good just for the sake of change. You'd better give me a good reason why it's like this. And, I mean, I want the show to show it. No matter how sensible a fan's interpretation (ex: Jack's scared of losing Daniel again, and that makes him distant) unless I see some hint of it on the show, it doesn't work for me. The problem, imo, is not showing that Daniel is even equal in Jack's affections to anybody. It can't be a coincidence that RDA felt they would cut the scene in Fallout.

[epiphany]

Liebestraum it might be easier to buy that point of view IF they'd actually made it an arc on the show. Instead it was there one season(or three actually), gone the next, never to return.

This isn't evolution. Evolution would be if Teal'c and Sam were "brought along" to be included in the same sort of bond. Instead Teal'c and Sam were brought in and Daniel was shoved out.

Jack has shown more concern for people who were practically strangers than he does for Daniel lately. Jack has shown more interest in people who were practically strangers than he has in Daniel. Daniel's gone from his closest friend, the guy he'd open up to when no one else could get him to--to the guy he might, just might, show a little concern for if he got pushed out of moving car. And that's only if he wasn't in a hurry to get home in time to watch the hockey game.

Daniel gets kidnapped, tortured, starved, etc, etc--Jack mosey's through the jungle like he's on a day trip with an annoying co-worker in Burke. The closest thing to "concern" is a brusque "Can you walk on it?". He could have been looking for anyone, just a job. Nothing indicated he had a closer relationship than that, that this was a teammate of many years.

Jack's being taken over by Ancient's knowledge(and while a slightly more extensive scene was written) what was filmed was Jack not even bothering to open his eyes all the way when Daniel is talking to him, instead seeming to barely listen to him and barely bother to respond in an annoyed tone of voice. Of course he can take time to have "moments" with everone else but not Daniel.

Even when he does something that could possibly be viewed as showing friendly concern they are always very quick to make sure it is couched in terms of "duty". Jack had to go to Central America--because that was the only way Burke would help Daniel and Dr. Lee, Jack had to download the Ancient's repository, because Daniel was the only one who could translate it. They are simply practical decisions you. I don't mind that those practical aspects are there, I even think it is good that they are there as I wouldn't want Jack's judgement to seem clouded, but decisions can be practical while the actions themselves involve an emotional aspect as well.

Someone could be forgiven for thinking Jack hated the guy at this point. But they are supposed to be friends? It's ridiculous. It's not "telepathic", it's not showing what deep connection they really have. Friends don't treat each other that way. They may ocassionally or they may have a bad day. But friends don't act that way--my brother has lots of friends, they don't act that way. I know lots of guys with guy friends, they don't act that way. They talk, they smile, they laugh, they even occasionally listen to each other --oh it may be all properly "guyish" but by god, they even touch each other once in a while. Arm around a should, pat on the back, etc. Dare I speak it...I've even seen men....::looks around nervously, whispers:: hug. Yes shocking as it may seem, I've seen men hug, straight men.

Now I personally don't care about "hugs"(in fact I think some people get a little hung up on that idea, unless the situation really calls for it(I think Need called for it for ex.) I think it would be overboard), that level of physical connection doesn't matter to me. I'm not a big hugger of my friends myself and I'm a girl.

But the people who make the show routinely keep Jack and Daniel half way across rooms from each other, sticking other characters in between them, etc, etc, etc. It almost seems like they go out of their way to make sure Jack and Daniel don't get too close to each other, don't say too much to each other(esp. anything of a personal or sympathetic nature, it all must be very surface level), don't come into eye contact, etc.

LOL! I mean what are they afraid of? That their videostock will spontaneously combust? Their cameras explode? The sky will fall? Jack and Daniel were friends and acted like it regularly for three full seasons--and somehow their filming equipment survived and the sky did not, in fact, fall. I really don't think they have too much to worry about.

[maboroshi]

Could it be possible that now no one relationship is supposed to be more important than another -- they are all merely different?

Nope, it's not possible that no one relationship is supposed to be more important than another... because that implies they're all equal. Au contraire, mon frere...

One relationship IS getting far more air time/importance/dialogue in comparison to the two others, especially when taking into consideration that they *cut short* the single farewell scene between Jack/Daniel in Lost City.

Can you guess what relationship has superseded all others? Three guesses, first two don't count.

I'll wait...

[earck]

I do truly miss the episodes with big Jack/Daniel themes. That is probably the biggest disapointment for me with RDA's reduced schedule. However I have noticed this becasue I read of his reduced schedule, i don't think i would have noticed it otherwise. Perhaps a negative aspect of Gateworld.

Daniel and Jack are great freinds, if they had more time I'm sure they would more scenes with the two characters. I think they need a season 8 ep to give us our fix of Jack/Daniel.

[Dani347]

if they had more time I'm sure they would more scenes with the two characters.

Nope, don't buy the time thing either. First, it's not just the quantity of scenes, but the quality that's lacking. And, in at least one episode (Enemy Mine) Jack was only in the first part of the episode, and I thought it was the best friendship moment of the season. So, they don't need a lot of time. They just need to utilize his screentime better and not cut scenes, which seem to be mainly J/D scenes. And, to tell RDA to freaking emote!

Also, they have plenty of time to emphasize one other relationship.