Originally posted by Tucker Case
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The Jack O'Neill/Daniel Jackson slash and friendship thread
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Originally posted by tashgateTC, I just wanted to say that your posts are a joy to read, every single one of them. Pure poetry, and usually bang-on right.
The dynamic for season nine is going to be so totaly different. I have a completely open mind, I fully expect to enjoy the episodes but it's going to leave a huge emotional gap for all the other members of SG1 with Jack so far away.
I for one am looking forward toSpoiler:the scenes MS said he was filming with RDA for episodes 1 & 3. I do hope they are worth the wait, no matter how brief.sigpic
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Originally posted by FrostfoxYeah, what she said.
The dynamic for season nine is going to be so totaly different. I have a completely open mind, I fully expect to enjoy the episodes but it's going to leave a huge emotional gap for all the other members of SG1 with Jack so far away.
I do think the show was in need of a shake-up. I don't like to say things had stagnated, because it's too negative a connotation for what was too real and understandable a progression in all of the relationships. It's more that the characters had settled into a rhythm, inter-personally, and it was too hard to get them to reaction out of them anymore.
I never thought I'd miss the days when Daniel really did have to hold his breath to get anyone to listen to him (no matter how many times his more lunatic notions had come to pass), but I did. I do. I'd rather he not have to beSpoiler:separated from the team in episode after episode, flung into space, hijacked, hit on, skewered, semi-ascended and forced to eat cold pork fat
I don't want them to go overboard in recreating the "good old" days - rehashing the same old character tensions with different faces - but I relish the thought of having new characters creating new tensions, and new realities challenging the old bonds.
And I couldn't possibly be happier with the calibre of talent coming in to make a go of it.
But I am sorry we have to lose Jack to see it happen.
I too am looking forward toSpoiler:the scenes MS said he was filming with RDA for episodes 1 & 3. I'm not expecting another 'Abyss' out of a couple of scenes, but I will be looking for something meaningful. I'm terrifically excited for Daniel next season, but a scene or two to remind me of what I'm losing in the bargain could give some nice weight to it all, I think.
TC
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Coming in a bit late to the thread, just managed to get caught up (avoiding spoilers for S8, though, since I haven't seen it yet. Don't get cable.)
First of all, loved your points about Abyss, Madeleine
Originally posted by Dana_JeanneI can't imagine that Jack would be pissed off at Daniel for "Abyss" especially after watching the end scene when they were obviously very close. As for Jack holding a grudge because of what happened in "Menace" or any pre-Meridian episode, I would imagine that watching Daniel melt away in horrible agony probably wiped the past right out of his mind.
S7 as far as Daniel/Jack frendship moments go was pretty bad. I can't explain it away like you can, Madeleine (lucky girl), because the few times Jack and Daniel were actually in the same scene together, the was not even a glimmer of friendship on Jack's face. I would have liked to see Jack smile once in a while. Still would actually.
And don't get me started on THE MAJOR disapointment of S7: Evolution. ARGH!
Dana Jeanne
I agree completely with Madeleine's take on Abyss. And while there was resentment while Jack was being tortured, that resentment had disappeared by the end of the episode.
Then came "Full Circle." Where Daniel, for the first half of the episode, is behaving rather un-Daniel-like. Way too calm. And distant. Very, very distant. And still insisting that he can't do anything to actually help. Not just Jack, but also Teal'c and Sam are showing signs of resenting this ("He is very powerful, yes?" "That remains unclear.") You get hints from Daniel's facial expression that breaking the rules would be very VERY bad, but Jack clearly doesn't understand this. I'm not sure I would either, in his position.
Then Daniel disappears for a while, reappears with a lot of bad news, insists that they give up the Eye to Anubis, vows not to allow Anubis to destroy Abydos, and disappears again, again without any sign that he's still their friend. This time he disappears for good. And Abydos is destroyed.
A few months later, probably just as they've gotten used to the fact that Daniel is gone for good, Daniel reappears again... but lo and behold, he doesn't remember them. He looks at them like strangers. He acts like a stranger himself. Not to mention, one of the first things he does when he first regains any memory is he shows up uninvited at a briefing and tells them that the key to defeating Anubis, which he'd previously told them to give up the Eye for, is "still lost."
In Fallen and Homecoming, I see Jack, Sam, and Teal'c all struggling to find a way to cope with this new Daniel who may or may not remember being close to them (if he ever was... his behavior in "Full Circle" must have cast some doubts). While Daniel is just struggling to remember them at all.
Even now, there's this year-long hole in Daniel's memory, a year that the rest of SG1 remember as fighting for the planet without him, grieving for him, while he apparently looked on and did nothing. And he can't confirm or deny that, because he doesn't remember.
So Jack, Sam, and Teal'c start to establish a little distance from him because they're not exactly sure where they stand with him. And once Daniel starts to regain his memory... he's still Daniel, and as such, he would see his friends distancing themselves and assume that it's his fault and they want it that way. So he'd distance himself from them as well.
And you have a vicious cycle.
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Originally posted by KaterineThen came "Full Circle." Where Daniel, for the first half of the episode, is behaving rather un-Daniel-like. Way too calm. And distant. Very, very distant. And still insisting that he can't do anything to actually help. Not just Jack, but also Teal'c and Sam are showing signs of resenting this ("He is very powerful, yes?" "That remains unclear.") You get hints from Daniel's facial expression that breaking the rules would be very VERY bad, but Jack clearly doesn't understand this. I'm not sure I would either, in his position.
Then Daniel disappears for a while, reappears with a lot of bad news, insists that they give up the Eye to Anubis, vows not to allow Anubis to destroy Abydos, and disappears again, again without any sign that he's still their friend. This time he disappears for good. And Abydos is destroyed.
A few months later, probably just as they've gotten used to the fact that Daniel is gone for good, Daniel reappears again... but lo and behold, he doesn't remember them. He looks at them like strangers. He acts like a stranger himself. Not to mention, one of the first things he does when he first regains any memory is he shows up uninvited at a briefing and tells them that the key to defeating Anubis, which he'd previously told them to give up the Eye for, is "still lost."
In Fallen and Homecoming, I see Jack, Sam, and Teal'c all struggling to find a way to cope with this new Daniel who may or may not remember being close to them (if he ever was... his behavior in "Full Circle" must have cast some doubts). While Daniel is just struggling to remember them at all.
Even now, there's this year-long hole in Daniel's memory, a year that the rest of SG1 remember as fighting for the planet without him, grieving for him, while he apparently looked on and did nothing. And he can't confirm or deny that, because he doesn't remember.
So Jack, Sam, and Teal'c start to establish a little distance from him because they're not exactly sure where they stand with him. And once Daniel starts to regain his memory... he's still Daniel, and as such, he would see his friends distancing themselves and assume that it's his fault and they want it that way. So he'd distance himself from them as well.
And you have a vicious cycle.
I think my task for the weekend is to go watch Lost City again.
I think the main reason for the distance between them (all of them, not just Jack and Daniel) was the writing on the show, but these analysis are much more interesting.
It's very easy to say 'Right I'm ascended, I can look and observe but not act' but a much harder task when what you are seeing are those you love in trouble. And it's even harder to comprehend from the prespective of those left behing (particulary poor Jack who knows Daniel so very well and knows he can rely on Daniel and now suddenly he can't)
Tucker - I do agree about the caliber of talent, I was never a Farscape fan but Bowder made me watch it, he was so good. Change is necessary in a show running as long as this. I'm still reeling fromSpoiler:the loss of Jacob and Catherinesigpic
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Originally posted by KaterineIn Fallen and Homecoming, I see Jack, Sam, and Teal'c all struggling to find a way to cope with this new Daniel who may or may not remember being close to them (if he ever was... his behavior in "Full Circle" must have cast some doubts). While Daniel is just struggling to remember them at all...So Jack, Sam, and Teal'c start to establish a little distance from him because they're not exactly sure where they stand with him. And once Daniel starts to regain his memory... he's still Daniel, and as such, he would see his friends distancing themselves and assume that it's his fault and they want it that way. So he'd distance himself from them as well.
And you have a vicious cycle.
I just never saw Sam and Teal'c as all that distant from Daniel in Season 7, and was surprised at how distant Jack was after the events of 'Full Circle' because there I thought he had a pretty good handle on Daniel and the whole ascension thing.
He took Daniel at his word and acted on that word without hesitation. He did nudge Daniel over that fine line, but Daniel had one foot across it already, I thought, and Jack knew it. When things started falling apart and Plan A was no longer viable, though, Daniel pulled together a last-ditch, desperate plan to at least get that tablet safely out of there (hoping against hope that he could still save Abydos) and was able to talk Jack into doing the very thing that is hardest for him to do: Walk away from a fight.
I've had to attribute Jack's emotional turnaround in Season 7 to Daniel's disappearance after 'Full Circle.' It had taken him a long time, in Season 6, to come to terms with what had happened to Daniel; where Teal'c had seemed to accept his ascension as an honour befitting a "warrior" like Daniel, and Sam, despite her uncertainty, did allow herself to grieve his loss, if not his "death" per se (a healthy and sensible choice on her part), Jack struggled, certainly up to 'Abyss' and probably beyond.
I thought 'Abyss' did both Jack and Daniel a world of good, spoke volumes of how they regarded each other, but it also signalled Daniel's first step down that slippery slope of non-compliance. Daniel's greatest loyalty was still to his "old" life and, while I don't think Jack exploited that in 'Full Circle,' he did rely on it a bit, still not fully comprehending the extent of the risk Daniel was taking, until Daniel was gone. Really gone, this time, it seemed. More lost than he'd ever been.
Then he's found again, flesh and blood but by no means "whole," less himself, really, than he had been while ascended.
Sam and Teal'c seemed to take his return in stride far more than Jack did. I thought great attention was given to Daniel and Teal'c's friendship: I got as great a sense of the bond between them in just two episodes early in the season (that one scene with the photograph in 'Fallen,' and the whole of 'Orpehus') as I had over the last six years. I thought it was made expressly clear how profoundly the events of 'The Changeling' had affected Teal'c, with regard to Daniel; if Daniel couldn't remember it, Teal'c would remember it for both of them. Being on the receiving end of the undying gratitude, loyalty and friendship of an honour-bound Jaffa might have been a bit daunting for "Arrom" but, man, what an anchor.
Sam, meanwhile, settled pretty quickly (perhaps too quickly) into the old routine. After being given such short shrift in 'Full Circle,' she did have the distinction of being the one to, if not single-handedly convince Daniel to come home with them (although I wouldn't argue with anyone who wanted to credit her with that), then at least letting him feel safe in the decision. Jack had given him the facts; Sam let him know he was loved. Jack may have told him they were friends, but Sam felt like a friend.
Sam and Teal'c reached out to Daniel, were content to be friends to him even while he hadn't quite worked his way back to them yet; Jack seemed to be waiting for Daniel to reach out to him.
Their different reactions to Daniel's predicament in 'Lifeboat' might have reflected this. While Teal'c and Sam went to work on the problem, practically holding a boatload of frozen refugees hostage to get their friend - as precious to them as son and sovereign were to Pharrin - the help he needed, Jack would not leave Daniel. The man of action sat and watched. Because, if Daniel was going to slip away again, so soon after coming back, Jack was going to be there, was going to be with him as long as he could? Because having failed to reconnect with him to this point, having kept his distance, Jack was going to make up for it by sticking by him through this? Because, being less secure in Daniel's return than Sam and Teal'c had become, Jack was simply that much more afraid that they were going to lose him now? All of the above?
I'm not sure, because the whole season came unhinged in the second half, in more than just Jack and Daniel's relationship - which actually had moments that hinted at the relaxed, comfortable rhythm they would fall into in Season 8, as though the scare in 'Evolution' had had a greater impact than actually played in that dismal episode - to the point where it seemed positively weird when they all congregated at Jack's house, making 'Simpsons' analogies, scarfing down doughnuts and balancing oranges on beer bottles. Since when were these people so chummy, as a group?
It's as though there was meant to be a point in Season 7 after which we were supposed to assume unassailable friendship, that everything was now back to normal and it was okay if the characters barely spoke to each other because we knew they were tight as tight could be and didn't need to be reminded. A bad enough decision, even without a team that had been fractured and needed to be seen coalescing into that family-of-four again.
I actually thought Jack, more than Daniel, was the missing piece. He needed to put the cap on the reconnection - the other three were ready, just waiting for him to pull it all together, finally - and he never really did.
TC
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Originally posted by Tucker CaseI thought 'Abyss' did both Jack and Daniel a world of good, spoke volumes of how they regarded each other, but it also signalled Daniel's first step down that slippery slope of non-compliance. Daniel's greatest loyalty was still to his "old" life and, while I don't think Jack exploited that in 'Full Circle,' he did rely on it a bit, still not fully comprehending the extent of the risk Daniel was taking, until Daniel was gone. Really gone, this time, it seemed. More lost than he'd ever been.
Loved both Sam and Teal'c's welcoming attitude to Daniel at the start of seven, particularly when Sam goes into the tent to speak to him, she so wants to connect again and I've always been fond of the Daniel/Sam supertwins friendship.
If you consider Jack and Daniel to be more than friends, some of Jack's difficulties make more sense to me too. Imagine it's your life partner who's doing all this ascended malarky and comes back not knowing you, it would be hellishly difficult to deal with.
Their different reactions to Daniel's predicament in 'Lifeboat' might have reflected this. While Teal'c and Sam went to work on the problem, practically holding a boatload of frozen refugees hostage to get their friend - as precious to them as son and sovereign were to Pharrin - the help he needed. But Jack wouldn't leave Daniel. The man of action sat and watched. Because, if Daniel was going to slip away again, so soon after coming back, Jack was going to be there, was going to be with him as long as he could? Because having failed to reconnect with him to this point, having kept his distance, Jack was going to make up for it by sticking by him through this? Because, being less secure in Daniel's return than Sam and Teal'c had become, Jack was simply that much more afraid that they were going to lose him now? All of the above?
I actually thought Jack, more than Daniel, was the missing piece. He needed to put the cap on the reconnection - the other three were ready, just waiting for him to pull it all together, finally - and he never really did.
TC
All interesting stuff, TC. You are making me look at whole seasons in a new light.
FF, not known for her in depth analysis of anything more meaningful than Daniel's lovely physique.sigpic
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Originally posted by FrostfoxLoved both Sam and Teal'c's welcoming attitude to Daniel at the start of seven, particularly when Sam goes into the tent to speak to him, she so wants to connect again and I've always been fond of the Daniel/Sam supertwins friendship.
If you consider Jack and Daniel to be more than friends, some of Jack's difficulties make more sense to me too. Imagine it's your life partner who's doing all this ascended malarky and comes back not knowing you, it would be hellishly difficult to deal with.
But, as much as I think somebody out in Vancouver was having a ball playing *nudge-nudge* *wink-wink* with that portion of the audience in Season 8 - never pandering to them, just cheerfully waving from the wings and inviting them to have their fun - I don't really believe the story is actively trying to tell anyone that there's more-than-friendship going on there, and I feel somewhat obliged to try and make sense of what they are showing us.
It's a bit of an effort sometimes.
Worried sick, and it must have been a nasty reminder of sitting there watching Daniel slip away in possibly the same isolation room in Meridian?
Although I would have felt they'd all be feeling a touch of this, particularly given the horrible irony of it all.
They may have lost Daniel, physically, before, but his spirit remained unchanged. He was still their Daniel, he just glowed a bit and wasn't around as much.
But now? Here he is, back in their midst, flesh, bone, hair and appendectomy scar, physically present, only with his spirit in danger of being swallowed whole and irreparably lost. He was more "their" Daniel as an ephemeral glow-worm than this boatload of intruders would ever be.
It's enough to make one think he was better off ascended. Though, I guess, if Jack was feeling at all responsible for pushing Daniel over that line, it would explain some of his heightened anxiety, the need to stay by his side.
Maybe 'Lifeboat' was meant to be seen as the turning point, given how all-is-right-in-the-world Daniel and Jack seem in 'Enemy Mine,' with its happy places and jokes about "breaking in" new colonels, how confident Jack seems in Daniel (and his ability to take care of himself), and the first strong evidence, in that episode, of the more proactive and self-confident attitude that is meant to be the hallmark of post-ascension Daniel.
However unsure and unsettled in his identity Daniel may have been prior to 'Lifeboat,' he fights for that identity when it's threatened, finds a way to protect it and emerges intact - and asking for Jack - against what are supposed to be impossible odds. He is so back in that episode, and clearly has no intention of going anywhere.
It just all goes inexplicably south in the second half of the season.
We know Jack is bad at emotional stuff, witness his problems right at the start with Sara and loosing her as well as Charlie.
Anything after that, almost. is reparation. "Better late than never," but not the best you could have done, for yourself or the other person.
TC
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I think what we're seeing is just a more grown up Jack and Daniel. I think Jack might respect Daniel more and maybe isn't quite sure how to treat him. He used to treat him more like a boy. Now the boy's grown up but they don't quite have the knowing manly bond Jack and Teal'c have. I think maybe there's been a little awkwardness. Daniel was so mature and aloof when he was a glow boy and in season 7 he was both mature and clueless. I think maybe they're still getting used to each other. After all awkwardness was a constant in thier friendship. But I don't think it's over. Just a little confused.
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Originally posted by Tucker Case
But, as much as I think somebody out in Vancouver was having a ball playing *nudge-nudge* *wink-wink* with that portion of the audience in Season 8 - never pandering to them, just cheerfully waving from the wings and inviting them to have their fun - I don't really believe the story is actively trying to tell anyone that there's more-than-friendship going on there, and I feel somewhat obliged to try and make sense of what they are showing us.
It's a bit of an effort sometimes.
Spoiler:Though the Flag Scene at the end of Threads, I have real trouble
interpreting in any way other than a slashy way! Edited to add the piccy, just because I could and because it's canon and it's lovely!!
They may have lost Daniel, physically, before, but his spirit remained unchanged. He was still their Daniel, he just glowed a bit and wasn't around as much.
But now? Here he is, back in their midst, flesh, bone, hair and appendectomy scar, physically present, only with his spirit in danger of being swallowed whole and irreparably lost. He was more "their" Daniel as an ephemeral glow-worm than this boatload of intruders would ever be.
It's enough to make one think he was better off ascended. Though, I guess, if Jack was feeling at all responsible for pushing Daniel over that line, it would explain some of his heightened anxiety, the need to stay by his side.
Maybe 'Lifeboat' was meant to be seen as the turning point, given how all-is-right-in-the-world Daniel and Jack seem in 'Enemy Mine,' with its happy places and jokes about "breaking in" new colonels, how confident Jack seems in Daniel (and his ability to take care of himself), and the first strong evidence, in that episode, of the more proactive and self-confident attitude that is meant to be the hallmark of post-ascension Daniel.
However unsure and unsettled in his identity Daniel may have been prior to 'Lifeboat,' he fights for that identity when it's threatened, finds a way to protect it and emerges intact - and asking for Jack - against what are supposed to be impossible odds. He is so back in that episode, and clearly has no intention of going anywhere.
TC
As anyone with a relative with something like stroke or Altzhiemers will attest, loosing the personality is devastating, worse than loosing the body. My father survived a dreadful stroke but the man who lived was only my Dad in shape and form, the man had gone. It was very hard indeed.sigpic
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Originally posted by melpomeneI think what we're seeing is just a more grown up Jack and Daniel. I think Jack might respect Daniel more and maybe isn't quite sure how to treat him. He used to treat him more like a boy. Now the boy's grown up but they don't quite have the knowing manly bond Jack and Teal'c have. I think maybe there's been a little awkwardness. Daniel was so mature and aloof when he was a glow boy and in season 7 he was both mature and clueless. I think maybe they're still getting used to each other. After all awkwardness was a constant in thier friendship. But I don't think it's over. Just a little confused.sigpic
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Originally posted by Tucker CaseOriginally posted by Frostfox[About Jack sitting there in the observation room during Lifeboat] Worried sick, and it must have been a nasty reminder of sitting there watching Daniel slip away in possibly the same isolation room in Meridian?
I think the answer is in Abyss rather than Meridian. I thnk the reason Jack stayed with Daniel was because he knew the value of having a supportive friend nearby when death is looming.
Madeleine
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Originally posted by melpomeneDaniel was so mature and aloof when he was a glow boy and in season 7 he was both mature and clueless. I think maybe they're still getting used to each other. After all awkwardness was a constant in thier friendship. But I don't think it's over. Just a little confused.
Or the way things changed between my sister and me as that five-year age gap between us that was sooo huge when I was a big girl of ten, and she was a wee dumpling of five - or when I was that full-of-myself fifteen-year-old and she the annoying "child" of ten, or I was the "woman" of twenty trying to guide the girl of fifteen away from the mistakes I'd made - amounts to all of nothing now. She was more grown up at twenty than I am yet. The depth of feeling between us hasn't changed, but the way we relate to each other sure has.
And I can certainly see evidence of the same sort of thing in Jack and Daniel's relationship...just, um, a little less girly.
TC
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Originally posted by Madeleine_WI think the answer is in Abyss rather than Meridian. I thnk the reason Jack stayed with Daniel was because he knew the value of having a supportive friend nearby when death is looming.
I might throw in a touch of 'Full Circle,' as well, work in smidgeon of Jack feeling he might have been at least partly responsible for bringing Daniel back, to this, and wanting to give him the kind of unyielding support he hadn't while Daniel was still getting the hang of ascension, and perhaps the kind of support he hadn't really given him since his return.
But, mostly, he's just returning the favour, so to speak, and showing how much he's learned about the power of sitting still. I'm just not sure how clear Jack was on this, or anything where Daniel was concerned, until the crisis in 'Lifeboat' occurred.
More than simply answering Daniel's actions in 'Abyss,' it does seem to be the moment Jack pulls his head out of...er, pulls himself together and starts acting like the friend he claimed to be.
TC
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