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GateWorld
April 14th, 2006, 12:26 PM
<DIV ALIGN=CENTER><TABLE WIDTH=450 BORDER=0 CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=7><TR><TD STYLE="border:0;"><DIV ALIGN=LEFT><FONT FACE="Arial" SIZE=2 COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/doctor-who/s2/"><IMG SRC="http://www.scifistream.com/wp-content/uploads/209.jpg" WIDTH=160 HEIGHT=120 ALIGN=RIGHT HSPACE=10 VSPACE=2 BORDER=0 STYLE="border:1px solid #000;" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#888888">DOCTOR WHO SERIES 28</FONT>
<FONT SIZE=4><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/doctor-who/s2/" STYLE="text-decoration: none">THE SATAN PIT</A></FONT>
<FONT SIZE=1>EPISODE NUMBER - 2809</FONT>
<IMG SRC="/images/clear.gif" WIDTH=1 HEIGHT=10 ALT="">
With their slaves taken over by a demonic being inside the center of the planet, the researchers and Rose fight to survive inside the station -- while the Doctor descends into the abyss below.

<FONT SIZE=1><B><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/doctor-who/s2/">VISIT THE EPISODE GUIDE >></A></B></FONT></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

GodAtum
June 10th, 2006, 11:03 AM
Surely if there is evil there must be good so if there is the Beast or Satan where is God? I hope that they will portray a god like creature in a future episode.

Before the Doctor fell into the pit I think he should have dropped something to see how far down it was.

On the whole, a very engaging episode although I was afraid at the end that they would portray the beast like an ascended being.

Tracy Jane
June 10th, 2006, 11:06 AM
It was good, but I think the ship might have taken that one step too far. It was cringe worthy enough last week, but now....!

Flyboy
June 10th, 2006, 11:12 AM
The shipping was disgusting. Absolutely awful.

I'm unsure as to my feelings about the devil ACTUALLY being there. Half of me wants to take an SG1 aproach to this and say well yes, but hes just a creature from before our universe, maybe the universe before ours... he inspired religious accounts of Satan much as the Unas inspired ideas of the demonic...

On the other hand I think its tacky and daft. I just DONT know what to think about this ep other than that I enjoyed it. I WANT to know things. They didnt explain enough.

The Signal
June 10th, 2006, 11:13 AM
I thought it was good, but not quite as good as the first part. Still, Satan was pulled off brilliantly and Toby holding his mind was even better (when he looked at the Ood with his red eyes, gave me the shivers :D)

Just the quick cop out at the end, it was obvious that he would find the TARDIS and use it to escape.

Did like the forshadowing though, will Rose die in battle? Lets see what happens.

Rating 8/10

Indum'kra
June 10th, 2006, 11:26 AM
This episode was just boring I'm afraid. I ended up just switching channels, just returning every now and again to keep up with the plot :zelenka26:

Wraith Scientist
June 10th, 2006, 11:29 AM
I just love the series' reflections on humanity. Easily led and stupid at times but brilliant and ever-curious :cool:

The Beast playing on childhood fears was creepy: "The Captain, afraid of command, the soldier, haunted by the memory of the eyes of his wife, the scientist, still running from daddy, the virgin, the little boy that lied, and the lost girl, a long way from home, who will die in battle" (or something along those lines)

I wouldn't mind seeing more of the crew of Sanctury Base in a future episode.

Was it just me or did the Doctor say something along the lines of "Black holes, my people deal with them easy" when he picked them up in the TARDIS. A reference to the Eye of Harmony, perhaps?

GodAtum
June 10th, 2006, 11:31 AM
The shipping was disgusting. Absolutely awful.

What do you mean by this?

in circles
June 10th, 2006, 11:32 AM
Pretty good. Not as scary as last week but the Ood crawling through the ducts was a bit creepy. I'm going to have to watch it again though because I can still barely hear what anyone is saying. From the preview next week's looks a bit wank.

Tracy Jane
June 10th, 2006, 11:32 AM
I agree with Ptah. Good but not as good as last week. Toby was amazing again, and I still can't get over how uncannily like Bill Nighy that Jefferson guy was. The one annoying thing was the ship taking precedence AGAIN! Whatever happened to Doctor/Companion being a taboo subject :rolleyes:

Flyboy
June 10th, 2006, 11:45 AM
Rose/Doctor relationSHIP.

pbellosom
June 10th, 2006, 11:46 AM
I said in the topic on "The impossible Planet" that there was no way that this episode could live up to the expectations the last episode left us with. I was wrong, there was pretty much nothing about this episode I disliked, except maybe the inevitability that the Doctor would find the TARDIS in the pit.

I particulary liked how the Doctor and Rose did not work out everything and left us with unanswered questions about what was going on, it just felt so realistic that the Doctor could not work out everything.

mentalmichael
June 10th, 2006, 12:22 PM
I wasn't a huge fan of this ep, but I loved the fact that our questions about the beast are never answered. Is this Satan? Is it merely a powerful psychic? Did it really exist before the start of the universe? We don't get answers because the doctor is scared of thinking about them. Usually it's Rose who doesn't understand and the Doctor who explains everything - I like the fact that he doesn't have all the answers.

knowles2
June 10th, 2006, 12:53 PM
I thought this was a good episode.

I just wish they answers a few questions by I did like the way the doctor did not know everything and that he could not even translate the language or new of the beast.

But I love how they did satan or the beast it was brilliant cgi use, almost as good as what you see in the movies, I wonder how much that cost the bbc to do.

I also am wondering if rose will be killed of by the end of the season base on what satan said and who will be involve in the battle, I hope it not it not the same enemy as last season final.

Billz
June 10th, 2006, 01:37 PM
Was it just me or did the Doctor say something along the lines of "Black holes, my people deal with them easy" when he picked them up in the TARDIS. A reference to the Eye of Harmony, perhaps?

Actually what he said was 'Gravity, schmavity! My people practically invented black holes. Infact, they did!

I thought this was a fantastic episode. Plothole alert!: How could the Doctor had found the TARDIS in the pit? The pit was closed when the TARDIS fell in 'The Impossible Planet', there was no sign of it when the Doctor and Ida are by the pit, then its suddenly in there, standing upright no less!

8/10 final verdict!

Flyboy
June 10th, 2006, 02:03 PM
The TARDIS rescued him.

That or a wizard did it.

dipsofjazz
June 10th, 2006, 02:04 PM
Sadly,I didn't enjoy this episode as much as last week.

I hated all the 'shippy' stuff. I felt they went overboard with it.
I felt that there was far too much sermonising from the Doctor, where he just stood around and talked.

I did enjoy the special effects, and enjoyed the chase from the Ood in the vents.

I loved the way that the crew started to work well together, each having their own job to help save everyone.



Satan was pulled off brilliantly and Toby holding his mind was even better (when he looked at the Ood with his red eyes, gave me the shivers
I loved that bit too, and you just knew that something bad was going to happen in the rocket.

I enjoyed the show, but after last weeks great episode I think I was expecting more. (although I'm not sure what I was expecting!)

ShadowMaat
June 10th, 2006, 06:01 PM
It was a good ep, but a bit of a let-down after last week.

The Ood were a lame waste of time. I'm horribly disappointed. I was waiting for them to be something more interesting than puppets. *sigh*

Satan was a bit... cliche. I mean, who's to say that the Human vision of Satan is the "right" one? I dunno. I guess that's what makes him identifiable, but I was kinda hoping for something a bit... more. Also, if Satan is just an idea, then isn't he technically being carried away by the survivors? Maybe not the full-fledged version, but shouldn't there be little seedling ideas in everyone? Or was that the whole point of the Doctor not saying whether or not it was the real deal?

The bit about Rose is interesting. Is that a set-up for the possible future writing out of the character? A Rose doesn't last forever, after all.

Poor Toby. *sigh* So cute, and he died a virgin. What a waste. :P

Kudos to whoever called the Torchwood expedition thing. :D

As for next week... oy. Again with the Tyler Family Drama. *headdesk* I don't suppose they'd kill off Jackie so we could stop getting stuck with these damn stories, eh? It has some possibilities, but I am so SICK of Jackie. And Pete. Enough, already!

I'll second the wanting of proof that there's a God to counter the Devil. And the whole "God is about faith" stuff doesn't cut it- if there can be a physical representation of the Devil, there can be one of the Other Guy, too. :P And the Doctor as God so doesn't work for me.

Gotta say, I was a bit disappointed that it was the Doctor who rescued the ship because I was all for it being the proof of God. Ah well. Maybe in another ep. LOL!

Easter Lily
June 10th, 2006, 06:25 PM
Unlike a lot of people here, I really liked this episode for its ability to combine both tension and emotion. The quiet scenes were so nicely done, evoking a sense of dread as well as sympathy.

I don't care for the Doctor and Rose getting up close and personal either... but I can always delude myself with the notion that the Doctor wasn't about to make a declaration of love. Who's to say that he wasn't just going to apologize... that he wasn't there to save her? :P Besides, it was just a small part of the episode and not enough to annoy me.

I thought there was some good acting from DT and Billie Piper... I liked it... A LOT!

yaaayoubetcha
June 10th, 2006, 08:12 PM
I thought this was a good episode.

I also am wondering if rose will be killed of by the end of the season base on what satan said and who will be involve in the battle, I hope it not it not the same enemy as last season final.

rumours have indicated that she will leave part way thru S3. no indication if it'll be early on or mid or near the end.

Willow'sCat
June 10th, 2006, 10:11 PM
I liked this episode not as much as last weeks but still it was fun and not too heavy handed on the Satan fantasy. There were more than enough cliche's to keep any true fan happy. Come on what is Doctor Who without cliche's?!

I agree too much shipping between The Doctor and Rose, I don't mind him being a caring Doctor but could you really see CE's Doctor doing the hug thing? It was straight out of a romantic novel or so my Mother tells me. :p I don't know. I am putting a lot of this down to DT being that kind of actor and the writers just playing to his strong points. And given Billie's time is limited in the future I don't think their relationship is really going anywhere, so does it matter? :cool:

No problem with the T.A.R.D.I.S just showing up, that is what she is for to help/save The Doctor and it isn't like they would abandon her so what other solution would you have? She is just there, bless her. ;)

I did think the ending last 10-15 minutes was rushed this could have been a three parter but again what else would they do? It had to end like it did it just makes sense that way. And you know a pretty happy ending as endings go.

Next week looks um, interesting. Pity it is another Earth based episode, when will we really see an Alien planet?

Oh and I missed the Torchwood reference last week but it was loud and clear this week. Am I the only one getting sick of it? We know it is important just get on and make the show so we can see it already. :cool:

Major Clanger
June 11th, 2006, 12:42 AM
i missed the Torchwood thing, when was it?

I loved his ep, and Gruesome #2 was gripping on to me and crying when they were trying to get away from the Ood in those tunnels.

Willow'sCat
June 11th, 2006, 01:18 AM
i missed the Torchwood thing, when was it?
The Captain says's something about it (mining vessel) representing the Torchwood archive... I didn't write it down :p so not sure of the wording but it was very loud and clear. ;)

Naonak
June 11th, 2006, 02:39 AM
Great episode - very dramatic, excellent acting. The CGI for the Beast was amazing. The Doctor was very good.

Didn't like the Torchwood reference - way too obvious, they should be more cryptic and hidden like the Bad Wolf things.

ShadowMaat
June 11th, 2006, 05:56 AM
Here's a question: other than sheer melodrama, what was the point of trying to kill off the human crew? He's SATAN, right? It's not like they could stop him and isn't he gonna need/want more worshippers? To say nothing of the fact that he probably needs the crew to pilot the ship so his "human vessel" can escape. I can see needing to convince the crew they have to leave, but... I dunno. The ep was still effective and all, but I can't help wondering what would have happened if the Captain had been killed.

As for the shippy stuff, yeah, it was obnoxious, but when the Doctor was all angsty about the "If you see Rose, tell her..." thing, it never even occurred to me he might have been trying to say "I love you." I was thinking more along the lines of, "It's been fun" or "You were fantastic!" (which could be interpretated shippily, I suppose) or something along those lines- more about the adventure than the relationship. The unspoken romance stuff is getting a little overbearing. I wish they'd drop it already. Guess that won't happen unless/until they get rid of Rose.

Oh yeah, and Toby was a bit of a waste, wasn't he? Rose starts ordering people around and it's, "Toby! Go... translate something!" And then we never get any result from that. He just sits there staring intently at some writing-covered bit but we never hear whether or not he translated anything. Might have been nice to get a bit of something- anything. A warning about the literal Hell to come, or some cryptic bit about how to stop Satan, with the specific details "mysteriously" missing and/or untranslatable.

Commander Ivanova
June 11th, 2006, 06:29 AM
The shipping was disgusting. Absolutely awful.

Couldn't agree more.
I watched this ep in a room of 20 or so people post beers and BBQ. At the big reunion half of us were cheering and going 'awwww', the other half trying (and luckily just succeeding) to keep their sausages down. :S

Wraith Scientist
June 11th, 2006, 08:39 AM
The Impossible Planet/The Satan Pit is IMO, one of the best Whos I've ever seen. It had everything from psychological creepyness, aliens, an alien planet, lost civilisations, a likable group of exploring humans with a good team dynamic and excellent reflections on human nature

Yeah, it was full of cliches and the Doctor's timely rescue was predictable because we know Rose has got to survive, but I was more worried about the other characters, who, as we saw with Jefferson and Scooti, the writers weren't above killing off. Ida was a great character. So was the Doctor, as I've said many times, I really like his optimistic reflections on humans.

It would be great to meet that human exploration team again. I think they just work, do you know that I mean?

There was also an interesting theme of mystery. The Beast left many questions unanswered ...

The music in this one was also brilliant

One of the only things I disliked was the fact that it wasn't longer. There was enough there for more development: the characters were so well developed and the concept was so interesting. This would have done for the arc of an entire season with its mix of mystery beyond even the Doctor and the impossibly ancient, powerful civilisation that imprisoned the Beast, the evil from before time itself.

Army of Ghosts/Doomsday?

That's supposed to be a war between the Cybermen and the Daleks though, but you never know if the beast would be a part of that ...
I wonder if this isn't going to get revisited at some point. It certainly deserves it.

Flyboy
June 11th, 2006, 08:40 AM
Just because there's some significance behind the representation of the devil doesnt mean there's a God. If you can get away from the religious aspect and focus more on an actual creature of pure concentrated evil being the inspiration for Satan, there's nothing saying God must exist. Or, God could be supernatural, whilst Satan is merely extraterrestrial and not preternatural at all.

Im a little annoyed with the way the Doctor is now CONSTANTLY saying how much he loves humans. Its getting VERY repetitive.

Overall, great ep on the effects and action side, terrible in terms of plot depth. They just stuck the devil in and didnt explain a thing. That bothers me.

Wraith Scientist
June 11th, 2006, 08:52 AM
Overall, great ep on the effects and action side, terrible in terms of plot depth. They just stuck the devil in and didnt explain a thing. That bothers me.

The Beast was an evil from before time (kinda like Fenric, I think), an ancient race defeated him and imprisoned him on the edge of a black hole with a power holding him in orbit. If he left, he would remove the power and he would be sucked in and would die. Nothing escapes a black hole.

Maybe there was a rule or something saying that the Beast could only be killed by himself, and so they imprisoned him in such a way that escape would be his death.

I have to admit, there was a lot left open. There was tons of detail (like the manner in which the Beast was imprisoned and why, and by whom) that could have done with expanding.

Prior_of_the_Ori
June 11th, 2006, 09:05 AM
The mystery is left there because sometimes a mystery is better then knowing the truth, as the Doctor said in the end when Rose was asking him about the creature and he said that if he knew everything then there would be no point exploring. But who knows...maybe we might see the 'Disciples of Light' who the Beast mentioned were its captors.

I quite enjoyed this episode..parts were predictable but still enjoyable and loved all the 'Speech of the Beast' like when he says 'You will die and I will live' and was amazed that the Beast itself was well...huge! Didnt expect that...kind of expected some human shaped and sized thing but it turned out better. Two things that were kind of creepy were the whole Toby going 'shhh' and the Beasts physical body laughing at the Doctor.

Also isnt it said that the guy who did the voice of the Beast was the same person who did the voice of Sutekh in the earlier Doctor Who? Sutekh being a creature that may have been the Devil as well. Sutekh being an alien who came from an incredibly powerful species who even the Time Lords feared.

The Ori
June 11th, 2006, 10:02 AM
You could tell they tried it, but it didn't work it was a poor episode too cliched and too begging it. Poor! Tried to make it intense! poor!

Flyboy
June 11th, 2006, 10:05 AM
That's a contrasting and yet so undeveloped view...

Madeleine
June 11th, 2006, 10:55 AM
I enjoyed it for the most part. Did anyone else get an Aliens vibe, with Mr Security Person taking the Lt Gorman role? I liked Aliens.

There was a nice balance between the characters and there was a purpose to each of them. The Captain got his mojo back, hurrah :).

I liked the scenes beside the pit, especially when the Doctor said "for once, I'm going to say... lets go back" or whatever it was he said. And the bit where he was in the pit on the rope. Just not the resolution to that bit. Far too talky. And the explanation waaaaay to contrived and convoluted. There was air down here specially so that someone could come down here and survive, but they made this prison in a way such that if anyone ever got halfway down here then Satan would be able to awaken and posess someone, and they put it near a black hole so that if necessary Satan could be made to fall into the black hole, but theye didn't actually drop him into the BH himself, and is my head slightly wonky or is this all rubbish? I don't mind rubbish, but this ep spent several minutes on it, so it was too hard to ignore.

I'm not seeing ship. I'm seeing Daddy/Daughter.

beale947
June 11th, 2006, 11:41 AM
It was good, but not as good as last weeks, personally i believe satan should has been seen earier, like coming out of the pit or something, and the planet falling into the black hole was resoved rather poorly, it would have been better if they had left it spiraling in and they had to get out before it fell into the black hole.

Also, instead of Toby having the devils mind, i think that the devil should have spoken to the doctor instead of making no real attempt of being satan at all. The episode was a real anti-climax, to a brilliant episode last week.

And about next weeks, can we please have less episodes on earth and more episodes on other planets, because if i was with the doctor, i'd be pissed off about always travelling to earth all the time and the reason you went with him, is to see other planets and the future etc.

Metarock Sam
June 11th, 2006, 12:41 PM
What a great episode.
Sure Ther was a slight aniti-climatic fell to it at the beginning since we were all led to believe that the beast was going to jump out of the hole in the ground but he didnt.
Still all the characters where superb like the captain nad so on. So Rose is going to die in battle eh....
its great that they are showing that the Doctor doesnt know everything. That makes the story alot more interesting then an evil being telling him their plans,
loved the references to the Draconians etc. They worked although shame there was no reference to Daemons.
The Beast was so cool a million thanks to the mill for that stunning Specail effect !!! althouhgh it did look like the Balrog of Lord of the Rings it was still cool.

Darkseid
June 11th, 2006, 01:48 PM
My thoughts;

1) The Torchwood referances are getting out of hand as far as I am concerned. How many times do we have to hear about it? It's gone beyond 'fun' for me. I haven't even seen an episode of the show, and I am already sick to death of it...

2) The Oood felt, I dunno, wasted a bit. Here was a visually pleasing monster/creature and then they were simply killed off easily. Of course they were simply puppets. First of the humans and then of Satan. But I would have liked to have seen some of them live.

3) NO SONIC SCREWDRIVER!!! YAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!

4) How did the TARDIS get down to the pit? We all knew he was going to find it and go off to another adventure. But, it looked like it had simply found him and was waiting......(I still like the excuse that 'a Wizard did it'. Any Simpsons referance is OK in my book!)

5) I am really digging the effects/design of things. The creatures in pretty much all the episodes work for me on whatever level they are supposed to. When I saw 'The End of the World', everything looked kinda Farscapie to me. And that worked in that episode. In this one, it was evil being the theme, and it worked too. Bring that in with Cat nurses and The Face of Boe, and it all comes together.

6) I know this is gonna sound odd (or Oood as some would say!) but, if this Creature was the insiration of 'The Devil' in various races through out the Universe (nice Draconian referance I thought) then how come the Time Lords never heard of him? Wouldn't you think that they would have at one point, and the Doc would have at least read about it in an archive? Maybe I am nitpicking too much, but it seems to me that a creature of such evil and destruction would have been documented somewhere other then writings on a wall in a tounge that is lost.

7) I was happy to see Rose do something other then just stand there, which is pretty much all she has done all season. There she is taking charge like she owns the place, filling in for the Doctor when he is needed.

8) I must admit I didn't care for The Doc 'sacrificing' himself by dropping down into the pit like that. I really got a feeling that all he was doing was 'ok, we're all gonna die anyway, better dieing this was then just sitting there...' It just seemed so....I dunno....maryterish.

9) That was one believable looking Devil. Great CG work.

10) There is a part of me that was hoping that when he found the beast he was going to find Vincent Price and would answer only to 'Scratchman'. Now that would have been cool!!

11) Next weeks episode looks....I dunno....a little lamer then I was hoping.

12) All in all, a great story all around. [mod snip - if you do feel utter derision for other posters, please keep it to yourself] This was fairly well thought out, fleshed out, and presented.

13) Now, if the prediction of Rose dieing in Battle comes true, that would be cool. She has a lifetime to find a battle to die in, but if it happens, it will show me that continuity is something in this new series!


My new favorite story of the new series; The Impossible Planet/Satan's Pit.

Matt G
June 11th, 2006, 02:24 PM
1. Liked the Doctor countering the Beast's speech.

2. Liked Rose acting in the Doctor's stead.

3. Interesting idea before the Beast - like the Doctor I'm iffy on something coming from 'before' time.

4. Not so sure about Rose going into little girl mode.

5. Liked "Black holes, my people practically invented then".

Overall, solid ep, solid two parter.

Flyboy
June 11th, 2006, 02:37 PM
Actually being before time is totally plausable.

When you get down deep enough to the quantum level you can find places where time does not exist.

Time is relative to gravity. Gravity does not exist deep on the quantum level. Now this doesnt prove much. But what it DOES prove is that the universe can exist on certain levels without time.

We dont know everything about the origins of the universe, but if time is dependent on gravity, and gravity is dependent on several factors on the quantum level working in ensemble, then in theory, these facotrs may not have begun functioning together straight after the universe's creation.

Be aware that what I just said, unlike some of my other sciencey posts REALLY pushes an idea to the limit, what I just said has no basis in science other than the fact that its an out there theory based on an actual theory. There is no evidence that time took... time to exist....

HyperCaz
June 11th, 2006, 05:51 PM
I was disappointed with this one. I was tempted to stop watching it but I liked the ending. :) And while I agree the shipping was a bit too much, I just have to say this as a shipper -

SQUEE!!!

ShadowMaat
June 11th, 2006, 05:55 PM
Just because there's some significance behind the representation of the devil doesnt mean there's a God.
No, but if there can be a personification of pure unadulterated evil, I think there should be a personification of pure unadulterated good. I crave balance. :P

And I detest the idea of the Doctor as a God substitute. I prefer the Doctor as the Doctor. Plain and simple. :)

As for the whole bit in the Pit with the Doctor talking at the Beast, my first reaction was, "Oh no! If Satan is in Toby's body, maybe Toby is in Satan's body!" I was waiting for Satan to open his mouth and say, "Doctor! It's me! Toby! KEEL MEEEE!!!" Heh. Although probably not that dramatic. :D

knowles2
June 11th, 2006, 06:22 PM
Actually being before time is totally plausable.

When you get down deep enough to the quantum level you can find places where time does not exist.

Time is relative to gravity. Gravity does not exist deep on the quantum level. Now this doesnt prove much. But what it DOES prove is that the universe can exist on certain levels without time.

We dont know everything about the origins of the universe, but if time is dependent on gravity, and gravity is dependent on several factors on the quantum level working in ensemble, then in theory, these facotrs may not have begun functioning together straight after the universe's creation.

Be aware that what I just said, unlike some of my other sciencey posts REALLY pushes an idea to the limit, what I just said has no basis in science other than the fact that its an out there theory based on an actual theory. There is no evidence that time took... time to exist....

its sound like a theory, also base on quantum string theory, their is a theory that the universe was produce in something like the eleventh dimension and that it was created by a collision between two membranes in this dimension and that according to this theory matters is just the wave produce by the collision and that wave is traveling on the surface of the membrane. So the devil could of been talking about before time started in this universe and that he just came from a another membrane universe . Also in this theory have tried to explain why gravity is so weak in this universe by saying that gravity is not created in this universe but it seeps threw from this eleventh dimension and we only get a tiny fraction on it in this universe. Also this theory also explain what cause the big bang in the universe. Also this theory is could allow us to create our own universe, that if we could somehwo controle the membranes that excist in the elenventh dimension. This would not impose dangers in our universer because the universe that we created would create it own space.

Well I think that the theory states it was explain in a channel four documentery a few years ago, at that time it was one the cutting edge of quantum string theory. Infact that was a good programme that explain quite nicely the whole area of quantum phisics and was quite interesting to watch to.

Willow'sCat
June 11th, 2006, 06:58 PM
That's a contrasting and yet so undeveloped view...Lol! :p

I don't have a problem with the beast being the first evil before time blah... (although I kept thinking about Buffy) and I am glad they didn't go into what the beast really was or what it was meant to represent. You can get really bogged down when you delve into that kind of story.


I'm seeing Daddy/Daughter.You know I get that; (why do I keep thinking of Buffy :S) but that IMO is not what the writers are going for. *sigh*

I am a little tired of The Doctor's talk about humans, he wasn't always as nice about us. Although in Age of Steel he does take the mickey so maybe there is a balance. I just don't want him to fawn over us so much. :cool:

P-90_177
June 12th, 2006, 01:59 AM
I LOVED both parts of this. I my opinion it was the best ep of the season so far. The shipping was done well and despite knowing that in the end they'll all find a way out I still felt a little fearful for them which is the sign of a truly great ep.
By the way, did anyone else notice the P-90's?

knowles2
June 12th, 2006, 02:31 AM
yes

cjp240573
June 12th, 2006, 03:01 AM
Ok, was a good episode and all that but if the Doctor did not make it back and Rose ended up going back to Earth. What year would it have been? They did not tell us how far in the future it was.... any ideas?

CJ

Wraith Scientist
June 12th, 2006, 03:23 AM
OK, I have an idea about the Beast's inprisonment:

The Beast is an incarnation of pure evil from before time (did he create the universe? There's an interesting thought). Long ago a powerful civilisation rose up against him but they knew that they couldn't destroy the Beast, so instead they tried to throw him into a black hole (or maybe, they tricked him into going near a black hole, or tricked him into collapsing a sun or something), the beast is incredibly powerful, but can't resist the black hole. If he falls in time stops and he effectively 'dies'. All he can do is prevent himself falling in, and on the planet inside the event horizon it is taking all his infinite energies to hold himself back, so he is powerless. If he attempts to leave, then he will be sucked in, all he can do is resist. He does have limited influence, and can make cables snap, voices etc. To escape, he possesses Toby while leaving his physical self back on the planet resisting the black hole, and flies away. He looses all his power, but can live.

Black holes are so strong that not even light can escape. Nothing escapes a black hole. Gravity warps time. In a black hole, the time dilation is infinite, and time stops. If you fall into a black hole you see the whole of eternity flash by. That is how they overthrew the beast, they put him (or tricked him into going - more likely IMO) so close to a black hole that he can't escape. They can't push him down for good, but he can't get out either.

Does that make sense?

I really need to read the transcript once it's up

ShadowMaat
June 12th, 2006, 03:31 AM
It makes sense to my sleep-addled mind. But why not simply drop him in the black hole from the start? Why give him an opportunity to escape? Is that a "chance at redemption" thing or just poor planning? ;)

Also, if Toby could be possessed, couldn't Satan's body have been possessed as well? Maybe that wasn't his real body, either, just the latest incarnation. But that's probably rife with problems and I'm too tired to think it out. Just an idle thought.

Tanith
June 12th, 2006, 04:45 AM
The captain said it was 43K in his reports about the deaths, so Rose would be in the year 43,000.

Metarock Sam
June 12th, 2006, 06:19 AM
hm well that certainly puts the ep into more perspective. And that it was before Satellite 5 and so on.

donnie_darko
June 12th, 2006, 02:29 PM
Sup, hey anyone think the planet will be back, remember the legends about the planet from "The Impossible Planet ". The "the bitter pill ", the black hole was tricked into eating the planet but it was thrown out.

I bet this has happened many times in the past, some people almost set the "beast" free but the planet gets sucked into the black hole before the escape and the prison is reset.

The prison is good,

1) You can not escape on your own, only help from the outside can set you free.

2) If you are set free you will placed back into prison automatic.

And this only holds true if the "light"

a) could only hold the "beast" in a prison and not kill it.

b) could not build a perfect prison, the "beast" could reach out with a small part of his mind.

But since the "light" does not want to kill people they made sure there was a way out (gravity field) and a way to manualy reset the prison (shut down the gravity field and let the planet fall into the blackhole).

Easter Lily
June 13th, 2006, 03:03 AM
I'm not seeing ship. I'm seeing Daddy/Daughter.
It was easier to convince myself of that when Eccleston was Doctor but with Tennant, 35 looking like he's 25... it becomes a quite a stretch.
Also it's obvious from the dialogue that Rose isn't seeing Doc 10 as Daddy either... all that hint, hint, nudge, nudge stuff about living together is calculated to lift subtext to text.

Unless of course the writers are going all Freudian on us... :P

*Sigh* I miss Mickey...

beale947
June 13th, 2006, 01:20 PM
with earth at its prime

NowIWillDestroyAbydos
June 13th, 2006, 07:29 PM
Just watched the ep, the ending was somewhat interesting. I knew the Tardis was going to save the day. As for next week's ep, I'll say this, it looks interesting.

shonac85
June 14th, 2006, 12:10 PM
I loved these two episodes! It was good to see that the doctor doesn't know everything. He's right, its not fun if you know everything! It was exciting, and a little scary, so I really enjoyed it. More episodes like that please! We all know that the doctor wouldn't lose his precious Tardis! She had to come back!

I know people are touchy about this subject, but I have to say that was a shippy episode for the Doctor and Rose, especially when they were discussing living together! Bless them!

Pitry
June 17th, 2006, 11:19 AM
Oooh, yay! A place to discuss Dr Who episodes! :)

Lovely thoughts from people. Actually my parents came in half way through and made some noise so apparently I missed the Torchwood reference. Yeah, they're being way un-subtle about it, unlike the Bad Wolf thingie - didn't see that one coming til they hit my had witha hammer saying Bad Wolf. ;) Oh, well, interesting to wait and see what they'll do with it.

I found the episode to be so-so. It had some brilliant moments, but the entire idea was a tad bit... well... Satan's locked inside a star? Meh. And they got a little corny towards the "oh! Let's all play to our strengths!" bit. I actually really liked the Ood. (cue Rose: "The Oood?") But I think they actually did a bit of damage with the Doctor's responses on this one. Maybe I'm still a bit too set with Acclestone's (despite really enjoying Tenant), but I thought his responses were a tad bit too mellow for hte situation.

And... I was actually getting some strong Stargate vibes from that one - but apparently that was jsut me ;)

BC - 303
June 17th, 2006, 11:29 AM
Acclestone
does that meen Eccleston?
I did think this one, THIS weeks made Satans pit even better, as this weeks was so week and poor.

Flyboy
June 17th, 2006, 11:34 PM
No, a lot of us had the Stargate vibe.

Pitry
June 18th, 2006, 05:04 AM
Acclestone
does that meen Eccleston?
I did think this one, THIS weeks made Satans pit even better, as this weeks was so week and poor.

Yeah, me bad. One day I'll learn how to spell his name. ;)


No, a lot of us had the Stargate vibe.
Ah, yay, I'm not completely insane then ;)

silverdamascus
June 19th, 2006, 08:05 AM
Oh my...

"The little girl so far from home who will die in battle so soon." (para) takes on a whole new threat now its been confirmed that Billie Piper's leaving.

silverdamascus
June 20th, 2006, 11:54 AM
How close is it to the time that Jack's in?

Metarock Sam
June 20th, 2006, 12:09 PM
Well Jack is stuck on the Game Station in the year 200,100. Which is 157,100 yrs ahead of the yr 43,000

Mr Prophet
June 20th, 2006, 12:35 PM
6) I know this is gonna sound odd (or Oood as some would say!) but, if this Creature was the insiration of 'The Devil' in various races through out the Universe (nice Draconian referance I thought) then how come the Time Lords never heard of him? Wouldn't you think that they would have at one point, and the Doc would have at least read about it in an archive? Maybe I am nitpicking too much, but it seems to me that a creature of such evil and destruction would have been documented somewhere other then writings on a wall in a tounge that is lost.

The Time Lords pretty much hated superstition. If there was a devil way back in Gallifreyan folklore, it would have been excised from the records in the time of Rassilon. And if Rassilon had found out there was something older than time, he would definitely have scrubbed it from the record; after all, something that doesn't belong to time is outside the control of the Time Lords and that's not on.

I have to say that I didn't see ship here. In fact, I haven't seen much ship since the regeneration. Close friendship, yes, but no uncomfortable or unDoctorly tension.

As for the prison, I can only assume that the race who imprisoned the Beast didn't drop him into the black hole from the off because they believed that it would have been wrong to kill, even the Beast. There's no other way that it makes sense, since it wasn't the Beast's power holding the planet. The gravity tube suggests that they knew there was a risk of the Beast's mental powers developing to the point where it could escape by possessing a living host and abandoning its body and thus left a mechanism to allow another being to enter the prison and trigger the failsafe.

Or something.

Nolamom
December 1st, 2006, 05:08 PM
As for saying that Rose would die soon in battle...the Doctor discounted that saing that Satan lied. This would make sense, considering that he's supposed to be the Prince of Lies and all.

I enjoyed the episode overall. I'm not seeing the Rose/Dr. ship...well, maybe just a tad. He does seem to be more protective of this Companion. Is it daughter or a touch of romance? Could be either.

ShadowMaat
December 1st, 2006, 05:20 PM
Considering that Satan was planning to kill them all, wouldn't the "battle" have been the battle with Satan? Or was he forecasting his own defeat? :P

Col.Foley
December 1st, 2006, 06:32 PM
Might I say. I did not see the whole episode, nor have I seen the whole new series. However, I thought that this was the best episode of the new series. I hated, well nearly hated the last episode. But I loved this one.

The one thing that I thought was bad, well not bad, but a ego stroking for Doctor Who. He defeated Satan! I mean, thats brilliant! Or at the very least he defeated a false god that would make the Goa'uld quake in their boots.
I do not know what to take of the Doctor Who shipping, I'm open to it for othe moment.

lord-anubis
December 1st, 2006, 07:40 PM
i liked this ep but to me and i said it before it just remind me to much of doom 3. in fact it was kind of like doom just with the doctor the monster even looked like some thing out of the game. the only thing that kind of borther me even thou i saw it coming a mile away was the tardis showing up out of nowhere to save to day

creed462
December 1st, 2006, 08:02 PM
I think its funny that the Beast didn't say anything about the Doctor

IMForeman
December 1st, 2006, 08:08 PM
I think its funny that the Beast didn't say anything about the Doctor

It did. It started with him. "This one knows me, as I know him: the killer of his own kind."

jds1982
December 2nd, 2006, 07:15 AM
This episode wasn't bad, just a little bit of a let down after "The Impossible Planet". It didn't really have the intensity of that episode. The last 10 minutes or so was really cringe worthy, especially with the Buck Rogers spaceship.

MasySyma
December 2nd, 2006, 06:18 PM
I agree that the second half wasn't quite as good as the first half.

Nevertheless, it was a good episode.

I enjoyed that Rose had a brian and used it. For once, the Doctor was busy, and she had to rescue herself. I'm ok with the shipping right now, so the ending on the Tardis wasn't too bad, but the ending did seem rushed. Did SciFi cut anything out again?

Overall, I'll give it a 9/10. The Doctor's monologing did take awhile, but that may have been due to all of the stupid SciFi commercials distorting the episode's pacing.

Kingomon
December 4th, 2006, 06:26 AM
Considering that Satan was planning to kill them all, wouldn't the "battle" have been the battle with Satan? Or was he forecasting his own defeat? :P
He was scareing them so they would not notice what he had planed.
I know what Satan's plan was when he showed he still controled that guy. To have his mind escape the black hole. He had them all scared of the "Battle" that they didn't notice his real plan.
My favorite part was when they were going back to the black hole. Satan showed himself blabing while everyone was freaking out. The guy in the front "What the H***". Satan is still talking and Rose picks up the gun and says her line and blast the window. Sending him on a one way trip into deep space.

Thermonuclearboy
December 4th, 2006, 11:56 AM
The last 10 minutes or so was really cringe worthy, especially with the Buck Rogers spaceship.

Yeah...somehow I would think that by the year 43K or whenever we'd have something more elegant than a "rocket" to get around space.

I did like the Doctor's confrontation with the Beast, though. The man of reason and logic trying to come to terms with something reason and logic cannot explain. I liked that he couldn't read the writing, and that kinda freaked him out. And that kind of made him less useful than usual, forcing Rose to step up to the plate; after all, she's confronted by things she can't understand every time she steps out of the TARDIS. This is easy for her. And the Doctor's little monologue at the bottom of the pit was nice: "Okay, I admit that you EXIST! I don't know what you are, but...there you are."

Kingomon
December 5th, 2006, 07:00 AM
It did. It started with him. "This one knows me, as I know him: the killer of his own kind."
I noticed how the doctor decided to skip that conversation

Trek_Girl42
January 21st, 2007, 02:36 PM
LOVED this ep- very cool to see the Tardis pulling the rocket through space. :D

Billz
January 28th, 2007, 06:52 AM
Is it just me, or did anyone else notice that Mr. Jefferson (Danny Webb) uses a P-90 with a silencer attached to it in this episode? Just thought I would point that out to anyone who didnt notice it.

Col.Foley
January 28th, 2007, 11:33 AM
Is it just me, or did anyone else notice that Mr. Jefferson (Danny Webb) uses a P-90 with a silencer attached to it in this episode? Just thought I would point that out to anyone who didnt notice it.
I noticed it too. Although that was not a silencer, it was just a different model of the P-90 with a longer barrel for greater accuracy and muzzle velocity. Instead of the short barreled one.

General David Niemi
September 4th, 2007, 05:44 PM
This ep is spooky

kirmit
October 7th, 2007, 09:19 AM
Just watched this episode yesterday on ukgold for the 2nd time. It really is a great episode and I never noticed how good the cgi was, it's just creatures they need to improve on.

Coco Pops
May 11th, 2008, 09:15 PM
The Time Lords pretty much hated superstition. If there was a devil way back in Gallifreyan folklore, it would have been excised from the records in the time of Rassilon. And if Rassilon had found out there was something older than time, he would definitely have scrubbed it from the record; after all, something that doesn't belong to time is outside the control of the Time Lords and that's not on.


Actually no there are things like the Devil that the Timelords fear. One example is the Fendahl.. They feared it so much they erased its homeworld from time. See episode "Image Of The Fendahl"


When Satan said

"This one knows me, as I know him: the killer of his own kind."


That had me intrigued. So the Doctor is the killer of the Timelords in the war. Wonder what he did? Did he use a delta wave or something like that that kills everything to fight the Daleks?

But then again Satan could well have been lying but I don't think so because he seemed to be playing on fears in his rant.

Also if Toby was posessed where was his mind? If the Beast's body had no mind it should not have been able to move like it did or roar or anything unless there was the tiniest spark of mind still there. Where did Toby's mind go?

Brilliant two part episode ruined by the following lame "love & Monsters"

Cold Fuzz
January 12th, 2010, 04:42 AM
That had me intrigued. So the Doctor is the killer of the Timelords in the war. Wonder what he did? Did he use a delta wave or something like that that kills everything to fight the Daleks?

But then again Satan could well have been lying but I don't think so because he seemed to be playing on fears in his rant.

That's the thing about Satan. He'll mix in lies with the truth, tell half-truths, and truths that have been spun to his purposes. He could have very well been telling the truth about the Doctor killing the Time Lords but another way of looking at it is that the sacrificed his people to save countless other species throughout space & time from the Daleks. A unimaginably difficult burden to be sure.

I think Satan left a small part (the animal, instinctual part) of himself back in the Pit inside his real body. The cunning and intellect were transferred to Toby, I thought. The two parts of his consciousness would be connected through a powerful telepathy, like the Ood. He knew that at some level that the Doctor would never voluntarily free him so he need to hitch a ride in a human's body to get back to Earth.

gateship15
January 12th, 2010, 02:06 PM
i agree and well put.

Mr Prophet
January 13th, 2010, 12:27 AM
That's the thing about Satan. He'll mix in lies with the truth, tell half-truths, and truths that have been spun to his purposes. He could have very well been telling the truth about the Doctor killing the Time Lords but another way of looking at it is that the sacrificed his people to save countless other species throughout space & time from the Daleks. A unimaginably difficult burden to be sure.

Spoilers for somewhere, but I'm pretty sure only as far as Dalek:

Isn't it in Dalek, or at the latest in Parting of the Ways, where they Doctor explains that he ended the Time War basically by killing everyone. Whatever fire made the Daleks burn did the same to the Time Lords.

Spoilers for The End of Time:

Rassilon makes mention of some weapon in the Doctor's hands which he could use to destroy both sides; I heard 'the Moog' or 'the Mood', but... ETA: The Moment, apparently, which is much better.

gateship15
January 13th, 2010, 05:39 PM
yes i think thats right. i think he explained that in the end it came down to the only way for everyone to be safe was for him to destroy both partys of the war. did that mean that the time lords were losing

Mr Prophet
January 14th, 2010, 07:26 AM
I think the universe was losing, really. Daleks vs Time Lords, the most unspeakable weapons imaginable (and then some), and vast swathes of collateral damage cut through history.

gateship15
January 14th, 2010, 08:27 PM
oh. the time war was a huge war. i fell sad for the doctor having to destroy his own people having to live knowing his the last and then the daleks keep returning when he thought he destroyed them. if it was me i would be angry because he destroyed his people and in the end it seemed like it was for nothing

Coco Pops
January 15th, 2010, 05:28 AM
Spoilers for somewhere, but I'm pretty sure only as far as Dalek:

Isn't it in Dalek, or at the latest in Parting of the Ways, where they Doctor explains that he ended the Time War basically by killing everyone. Whatever fire made the Daleks burn did the same to the Time Lords.

Spoilers for The End of Time:

Rassilon makes mention of some weapon in the Doctor's hands which he could use to destroy both sides; I heard 'the Moog' or 'the Mood', but... ETA: The Moment, apparently, which is much better.




I am still going with my theory that it was a Delta Wave


In Parting Of The Ways the Doctor explained that an unrefined wave would destroy both the Earth and the Daleks... And I think this makes sense. Maybe that incarnation of the Doctor in the Time War did this...

gateship15
January 16th, 2010, 02:45 PM
maybe he did. but in the end the daleks still came back anyway

iJOKE
April 10th, 2012, 11:51 PM
Good episode. Very suspenseful. I actually thought Rose was going to die at one point.

(im worried what will happen to Rose.. i know she wont last long. )
^no spoilers please im new to doctor who

TennisMennis
June 3rd, 2012, 06:05 PM
I liked both parts very much. I agree - part one more than two, but still both were excellent.

Great to see Rose in command and running things. The Dr's dialogue with the Beast was awesome. Only bummer - I think everyone knew the Tardis would be there to save him.

maneth
June 21st, 2012, 10:27 AM
Yeah absolutely agreed on the Tardis, but the journey there was cool.