PDA

View Full Version : Is SG1 Committing Genocide? ('Arthur's Mantle' SPOILERS)



mahram
April 6th, 2006, 08:36 AM
The definition of genocide is Deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group. So is sg1 committing genocide. Yes sg1 has the right to defend themselves but its still genocide by killing all of the ori. It would be like the americans killing off all of the germans during world war II, or killing off all of the vietmese during the vietnam war. So is sg1 committing genocide. The definition of genocide is Deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group. So they fit the defintion, regardless of the purpose, its still genocide.

jonno
April 6th, 2006, 08:57 AM
Probably very true - but, as Atlantis has already proved, 'In space no-one can hear you scream "Geneva Convention"'

McSwift
April 6th, 2006, 09:19 AM
The definition of genocide is Deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group. So is sg1 committing genocide. Yes sg1 has the right to defend themselves but its still genocide by killing all of the ori. It would be like the americans killing off all of the germans during world war II, or killing off all of the vietmese during the vietnam war. So is sg1 committing genocide. The definition of genocide is Deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group. So they fit the defintion, regardless of the purpose, its still genocide.


The Ori are doing the same thing as well:

- "Worship us, or die"

I would say thats some form of Ethnic cleansing.

Its justified to use this weapon on them.

spg_1983
April 6th, 2006, 09:23 AM
Daniel was quite clear that the device doesn't kill them, it just neutralizes them. It creates interferance on their wavelengths that prevents them from interacting with or affecting this plane of existence. They are still alive, just unable to exert influence or power in our reality. So there is no genocide, where they are trying to commit genocide is in Pegasus against the wraith.

mahram
April 6th, 2006, 09:43 AM
but it traps them in some perpetual hell. Which is worse then death. My other question was when sg1 sent the ashen the gate address to a blackhole. Wiping out the ashen civilzation. Joe mentioned he wanted todo a trial episode where sg1 and earth was being trialed for genocide against the ashen. Was that also an act of genocide.


Daniel was quite clear that the device doesn't kill them, it just neutralizes them. It creates interferance on their wavelengths that prevents them from interacting with or affecting this plane of existence. They are still alive, just unable to exert influence or power in our reality. So there is no genocide, where they are trying to commit genocide is in Pegasus against the wraith.

mahram
April 6th, 2006, 09:47 AM
But its still genocide. Like I said it would be like us killing all the muslims in the world for 911 or all the germans for world war II. Do we kill all the germans b/c of the nazis. Of course not. Or in rawanda where the entire tutsi/huta people went on genocide killing spree. Do we justify killing all the tutsi or all the huta. Its still morally wrong. it reminds me of the ds9 episode, where the federation gave a plague to the founders. They even thought it was genocide.

The Ori are doing the same thing as well:

- "Worship us, or die"

I would say thats some form of Ethnic cleansing.

Its justified to use this weapon on them.

Hermiod
April 6th, 2006, 09:59 AM
SG-1 should use the weapon as a demonstration that the Ori are not gods. It might help convince their followers that their gods are false and they'd stop believing. Without believers the Ori's power would significantly reduce and they wouldn't have people to wage their holy war for them.

spg_1983
April 6th, 2006, 10:06 AM
but it traps them in some perpetual hell. Which is worse then death. My other question was when sg1 sent the ashen the gate address to a blackhole. Wiping out the ashen civilzation. Joe mentioned he wanted todo a trial episode where sg1 and earth was being trialed for genocide against the ashen. Was that also an act of genocide.
We don't know that they are trapped in a hell at all. You are assuming that. All we know is that the device prevents them from exerting powers on our plane of existence. You are assuming that it is painful to them, but we have no data towards that at all.

As for the Aschen. Its possible you could argue that it was a heinous act, and immoral, but it was not genocide. It was not systematic, nor aimds at wiping out their entire civilization that spanned many worlds already. Now if they deliberatly went to each world and dialed the gates to black holes and took off, leaving the Aschen worlds to all be destroyed, then yes you could argue that would be genocide.

The Signal
April 6th, 2006, 10:06 AM
The short answer to this question is yes, buit dont worry, genecide is okay if you have good intentions, ahhh the hipocracy of morals.

metroid
April 6th, 2006, 10:09 AM
mahram, use the edit button. there is no need to double post is there?

And since we aren't actually killing them, it can't be considered genocide.
We are simply making sure they can't use their powers as fireskulls against us. It doesn't harm them in the way their followers could harm us so if we show them that we can make sure that the Ori stop influencing them, they might put down their weapons and stop fighting.

spg_1983
April 6th, 2006, 10:11 AM
But its still genocide. Like I said it would be like us killing all the muslims in the world for 911 or all the germans for world war II. Do we kill all the germans b/c of the nazis. Of course not. Or in rawanda where the entire tutsi/huta people went on genocide killing spree. Do we justify killing all the tutsi or all the huta. Its still morally wrong. it reminds me of the ds9 episode, where the federation gave a plague to the founders. They even thought it was genocide.
You are still not understanding the nature of the device. It does not kill them. To use a real world comparison like you used. It would be akin to the Allied powers dismantaling the german military machine after WWII and rendering them impotent to prevent the Nzi's from rising up again and starting wars once again. We did not go in and kill every last german, we rendered the Nazis unable to rise up again. Its the same deal with the Ori. You could liken them to the Nazi's. The device merely renders them unable to interfere with our plane and our affairs.

cbrseadude
April 6th, 2006, 11:07 AM
Your right on the money 1983. But my thoughts are also that if a enemy is threating your very exsistence, to the point of possible totally wiping you and your race or kind out, there should be no resolve in winning that war, regardless of your means. The Ori are evil and want to destroy us if we do not follow them. The Aschen were slowly going to wipe us out till we existed no more, so I think you have to not only push these evil forces away not just from your borders, but away for good. They started it and we plan to finish it! Lets not forget that its only a tv show to and I cant believe im even arguing this, but hey its a slow day at work.

the fifth man
April 6th, 2006, 11:13 AM
Maybe they are going to be committing genocide where the Ori are concerned. But literally, it is an "us or them" situation.

GhostPoet
April 6th, 2006, 11:15 AM
In a war like this there is no room for pacifists.
Us or them...if you leave a few behind, they'll find a way to strike back.

Is it genocide? Yup. It's just a necessary evil.

IcyNeko
April 6th, 2006, 01:47 PM
No, it's not genocide. We're not wiping out the Orii. We're denying their followers the ability to tap into the Orii powers. If they want to go on preaching Origin, they can do so without Orii powers. They won't be able to inflict plagues on other societies, etc and so forth.

As for whether the device's usage on the Orii is genocide... or putting them in hell...

... the alterans are, for the most part, not coming into our realm. They're happy as can be. Are they in hell too? I think not.

Ancient 1
April 6th, 2006, 03:18 PM
Technically speaking, I don't think it's genocide if one kills all their enemies in an act of war that this same enemy started. However if some fled and then we systematically hunted them down for the sole pupose of destroying them, you might have a case. But hey, were not in Kansas anymore and the Geneva convention means nothing. Those limp biscuits at the UN are too feeble to enforce it anyway. In essence the US and stargate allied countries would be policing themselves...and we already know what they're gonna do.

PG15
April 6th, 2006, 03:37 PM
But its still genocide. Like I said it would be like us killing all the muslims in the world for 911 or all the germans for world war II. Do we kill all the germans b/c of the nazis. Of course not. Or in rawanda where the entire tutsi/huta people went on genocide killing spree. Do we justify killing all the tutsi or all the huta. Its still morally wrong. it reminds me of the ds9 episode, where the federation gave a plague to the founders. They even thought it was genocide.

Those analogies doesn't hold since not all of the Germans wanted us all dead, and not all of the muslims wanted us dead, etc.

The Ori acts as a single, unrelenting entity that's gonna destroy us if we don't bow down.

So screw 'em, I say! If it's genocide, fine. They started it. Sometimes ethical problems really stand in the way of survival (but this only apply to very very VERY unique situations, like this one).

Deevil
April 6th, 2006, 04:45 PM
Interesting question. But since the device doesn't kill them, only prevents them from functioning in this universe I have to say it isn't genocide. It's akin to imprisonment.

JanusAncient
April 6th, 2006, 06:15 PM
Genocide, I don't think it is, but when dealing with the Ori collective, I should hope so, given the fact that they are ascended beings, and they have potentially forever to act, they just might find a way to counteract this technology, and return even worse than they are now. But, I also feel that the Ori believe it to be, an us or them situation as well, when it comes to the Ancients.

mahram
April 6th, 2006, 07:12 PM
but how do you define killing. If I beat a man to the point where he has no brain functions, cant move, talk, notta, forever, but he can still breath. Is that killing a person. To an orii, restricting him in an upper dimension, unable to move to other dimensions, is basically killing an orii. Since we dont know at that level of evolution, what death is to them.



No, it's not genocide. We're not wiping out the Orii. We're denying their followers the ability to tap into the Orii powers. If they want to go on preaching Origin, they can do so without Orii powers. They won't be able to inflict plagues on other societies, etc and so forth.

As for whether the device's usage on the Orii is genocide... or putting them in hell...

... the alterans are, for the most part, not coming into our realm. They're happy as can be. Are they in hell too? I think not.

mahram
April 6th, 2006, 07:19 PM
thats the problem we have ethics and laws. We dont know if all of the ori want us dead, it could be a majority of them do, but we are willing to wipe them out. Its not the first time sg1 has committed genocide, remember how they wiped out the ashen. And joe wanted todo an episode dealing with Sg1 in a war crimes tribunal dealing with wiping out of the ashen. Hopefully we will see it during season 10. We didnt know if all the ashen wanted us dead, but we wiped them all out. How about the replicators. Or how about the gould when sg1 had the gould killing plague. They would have used it, if it didnt kill all jaffa to. Genocide is genocide, regardless of reasons.

Speaking about the german analogy. We were willing to wipe out Japan with nuclear weopens if they didnt surrender. Remember the truman quote Truman promised a "rain of ruin" if Japan did not surrender immediately. When people are at war, henious crimes are committed.


Those analogies doesn't hold since not all of the Germans wanted us all dead, and not all of the muslims wanted us dead, etc.

The Ori acts as a single, unrelenting entity that's gonna destroy us if we don't bow down.

So screw 'em, I say! If it's genocide, fine. They started it. Sometimes ethical problems really stand in the way of survival (but this only apply to very very VERY unique situations, like this one).

Deevil
April 6th, 2006, 07:23 PM
By definition, if someone is still breathing, and their heart is still beating they are still alive.

If the Ori are trapped in a higher dimension, they are imprisioned in that dimension but they are not dead. They cannot exit, but does that mean they cannot see? Hear and feel?? Nope, just means that they are trapped behind at least temporarily inpentarbale walls.

PG15
April 6th, 2006, 07:31 PM
thats the problem we have ethics and laws. We dont know if all of the ori want us dead, it could be a majority of them do, but we are willing to wipe them out. Its not the first time sg1 has committed genocide, remember how they wiped out the ashen. And joe wanted todo an episode dealing with Sg1 in a war crimes tribunal dealing with wiping out of the ashen. Hopefully we will see it during season 10. We didnt know if all the ashen wanted us dead, but we wiped them all out. How about the replicators. Or how about the gould when sg1 had the gould killing plague. They would have used it, if it didnt kill all jaffa to. Genocide is genocide, regardless of reasons.

Speaking about the german analogy. We were willing to wipe out Japan with nuclear weopens if they didnt surrender. Remember the truman quote Truman promised a "rain of ruin" if Japan did not surrender immediately. When people are at war, henious crimes are committed.

I never said it was the right thing, but it is necessary. When you're on the edge of death, you throw away the ethics and rely on instincts. At least that's what I think.

mahram
April 6th, 2006, 07:36 PM
we have two diffrent perspectives on death then. Some people think that if you are still breathing, but you are brain dead, you are dead. Thats the medical definition. But for others who follow a more religious belief, even if they are brain dead, but still breathing they are considered alive. I think the majority of people will consider my first definition as correct. If you restrict an orii to their one dimension, its like killing an orii, its like making an orii brain dead.


By definition, if someone is still breathing, and their heart is still beating they are still alive.

If the Ori are trapped in a higher dimension, they are imprisioned in that dimension but they are not dead. They cannot exit, but does that mean they cannot see? Hear and feel?? Nope, just means that they are trapped behind at least temporarily inpentarbale walls.

Deevil
April 6th, 2006, 07:37 PM
No, it's not. Their brain still exists, it's still capable of thought and of feeling. It's just imprisoned.

To kill something, you have to do more then imprison them.

spg_1983
April 6th, 2006, 07:38 PM
but how do you define killing. If I beat a man to the point where he has no brain functions, cant move, talk, notta, forever, but he can still breath. Is that killing a person. To an orii, restricting him in an upper dimension, unable to move to other dimensions, is basically killing an orii. Since we dont know at that level of evolution, what death is to them.
You are drawing false and biased comparisons. I true comparisons would be taking a criminal and placing them in jail. They can live, move around their cell, talk to other prisoners, but they can not exert power or influence outside their prison.

Filetta
April 6th, 2006, 07:40 PM
The definition of genocide is Deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group. So is sg1 committing genocide.

No they are no because the Ori are not going to die, they are simply not going to be able to interact in our universe. It will be just like they did to the bugs in Sight Unseen 6.13, they stopped them from interacting in our dimension.

As for the Achen, they were given the address of the blackhole but I am sure they would have told them what it was and explained they were trying to be cautious until everything was cleared up if the Ashen had not tried to wipe out everyone on Earth with that bioweapon.

mahram
April 6th, 2006, 07:41 PM
Its necessary but its wrong. When you start throwing out ethics, what we have basically become are the worst monsters in history like the nazi's, khemer rouge,huta/tutsi's in rawanda, bosnia. In their perspectives they were backed into a wall. There only way to maintain their societies were to kill off an entire race. So is sg1 any better. Like I said its not the first time they had to kill off an entire race. Remember the ashen. Or the gould killing plague.



I never said it was the right thing, but it is necessary. When you're on the edge of death, you throw away the ethics and rely on instincts. At least that's what I think.

Pharaoh Atem
April 6th, 2006, 07:43 PM
on 1 side i can see where might be true but we are only trying to defend our selves i mean you think daniel and vala knew what there were getting into by using the communcation device.

there made a snap descion and now we are paying for it.

thats one of the reasons why we should play around with tech that we don't understand at least try to learn about it more before using it.

mahram
April 6th, 2006, 07:46 PM
But like I said we dont know what it is tobe an ascended being. Restricting them to one dimension, could be like killing them. Its something that they need to survive and its an integral part of them. It would be like somebody, choping off your head, but keeping your body alive.

For the episode it was intentionally given to them. I wish joe will finally make that episode. But I hope its not a flash back epsiode. B/c its a court episode.


No they are no because the Ori are not going to die, they are simply not going to be able to interact in our universe. It will be just like they did to the bugs in Sight Unseen 6.13, they stopped them from interacting in our dimension.

As for the Achen, they were given the address of the blackhole but I am sure they would have told them what it was and explained they were trying to be cautious until everything was cleared up if the Ashen had not tried to wipe out everyone on Earth with that bioweapon.

Deevil
April 6th, 2006, 08:00 PM
No you see, we aren't taking away that which makes them survive, we are taking away the source of their power.

That is different.

They are still living, just not interacting with other dimensions.

PG15
April 6th, 2006, 08:15 PM
Its necessary but its wrong. When you start throwing out ethics, what we have basically become are the worst monsters in history like the nazi's, khemer rouge,huta/tutsi's in rawanda, bosnia. In their perspectives they were backed into a wall. There only way to maintain their societies were to kill off an entire race. So is sg1 any better. Like I said its not the first time they had to kill off an entire race. Remember the ashen. Or the gould killing plague.

Fine, it's still wrong.

But it's also still necessary. Can you suggest an alternative?

Dani347
April 6th, 2006, 08:34 PM
How do you know that restricting them to one dimension is taking away something vital they need?

PG15
April 6th, 2006, 08:58 PM
Indeed. The Ancients pretty much stay in their realm except for some rebellious few, and they seem to be fine.

metroid
April 6th, 2006, 11:04 PM
mahram, if your not willing to listen to reason anyway, why did you even start this topic?

like spg_1983 said:



You are drawing false and biased comparisons. true comparisons would be taking a criminal and placing them in jail. They can live, move around their cell, talk to other prisoners, but they can not exert power or influence outside their prison.

mahram, do you stand outside prisons protesting against the 'genocide' (by your view of it) they are commiting against the prisoners?

mahram
April 7th, 2006, 01:02 PM
well in canada we dont have the death penalty. We are enlightened people :D


mahram, if your not willing to listen to reason anyway, why did you even start this topic?

like spg_1983 said:



mahram, do you stand outside prisons protesting against the 'genocide' (by your view of it) they are commiting against the prisoners?

IcyNeko
April 7th, 2006, 01:07 PM
How do you know that restricting them to one dimension is taking away something vital they need?
Seems to be perfectly A-OK for the Ancients. I think of it as solitary confinement. Besides, the only reason they interfere with the lower planes of existence is to steal energy and grow more corrupt and powerful.

Erm.. yeah. ok. Seems like we need a dictionary lesson here...

gen·o·cide ( P ) Pronunciation Key (jn-sd)
n.
The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group.

What the Orii are doing is considered Genocide. They're systematically plaguing their enemies to death. What the Humans are doing is considered "confinement". No one's dying. They're just being sent to the corner to think about what they did wrong.

For a really, really long time.

BUt they still have each other.

spg_1983
April 7th, 2006, 01:21 PM
well in canada we dont have the death penalty. We are enlightened people :D
And what does that have to do with anything?

Deejay435
April 7th, 2006, 01:52 PM
thats the problem we have ethics and laws. We dont know if all of the ori want us dead, it could be a majority of them do, but we are willing to wipe them out. Its not the first time sg1 has committed genocide, remember how they wiped out the ashen. And joe wanted todo an episode dealing with Sg1 in a war crimes tribunal dealing with wiping out of the ashen. Hopefully we will see it during season 10. We didnt know if all the ashen wanted us dead, but we wiped them all out. How about the replicators. Or how about the gould when sg1 had the gould killing plague. They would have used it, if it didnt kill all jaffa to. Genocide is genocide, regardless of reasons.

Speaking about the german analogy. We were willing to wipe out Japan with nuclear weopens if they didnt surrender. Remember the truman quote Truman promised a "rain of ruin" if Japan did not surrender immediately. When people are at war, henious crimes are committed.

The Ascendeds that Daniel joined, briefly, remain-with one or two minor exceptions like Orlin-on their own plane of existance. Once SG1 gets a chance to use the weapon the Ori will be kept on that same plane of existance.

The Ascended are not dead. They're not suffering. They choose to remain on that plane of existance, so it's quite clearly not like being dead. Using the weapon doesn't even come close to killing them. Nor does it even come close to causing them to live in a vegatative state, like you compared it to, in another post. Was Oma Desala in some kind of hell, or in pain, or feeling as if she was dead? Were all the Ascendeds who inhabited her 'diner'? No. In fact, the Ascendeds have themselves made a rule that they don't permit themselves to come onto our plane of existance. Are they then commiting mass suicide? No, again.

As for the Ascehen-SG1 did not wipe them out either. First, the Aschen was a collective of planets. The worst that would have happened is the Aschen dialed the black hole from one planet, and it was lost to the black hole. All their other planets would have been completely safe. So their society, their culture, and their people would not have been 'wiped out'. Not to mention-the Aschen were supposed to be so much more advanced than we are. We managed, with our comparatively less advanced tech to not get destroyed when we dialed into a black hole-I'd certainly expect the Aschen to be able to save themselves if we could.

IcyNeko
April 7th, 2006, 02:17 PM
Oh god, what if the Aschen come back later in Season 10 to haunt us? Better get my suntan going. Don't want to look pasty faced like those fools.

DrPepperJunkie
April 7th, 2006, 03:19 PM
personally, i don't think we're deliberately going out into the universe trying to wipe out the Ori. i think that if they had stayed put where they were we would have had no reason to want to defend ourselves against them. they are the one coming here to exact retribution on us. they're the ones building the supergates and ships for the sole purpose of getting us to join them or be wiped out. all i see us doing is trying to preserve our way of existence the best way we know how. we've already seen Daniel trying to resolve various situations with Priors peacefully to no avail. so i guess the question is, what is the right course of action in a situation that calls for immediate attention against an enemy with superior technology that won't listen unless you're saying what they want?

A Lost Cause
April 7th, 2006, 04:23 PM
Was eradicating the Goa'uld any different then what they're doing now? not really, if anything, this is less severe then what they did the the goa'uld due to them not actually killing the Ori.

As for it being genocide, I doubt it, because even if there are Ori who don't agree with the rest, they seem content to not involve themselves on our plain so they wont even notice the difference, and really, all we are doing is throwing them into a theoretical prison. So legally, they(Sg1) are doing nothing wrong besides not giving them a trial, however it is reasonably obvious they are guilty

IcyNeko
April 7th, 2006, 05:51 PM
Taking out the Goa'uld was more self defense, considering that the Goa'uld were always attempting to erradicate Earth.

BigBadBob
April 7th, 2006, 05:57 PM
The definition of genocide is Deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group. So is sg1 committing genocide. Yes sg1 has the right to defend themselves but its still genocide by killing all of the ori. It would be like the americans killing off all of the germans during world war II, or killing off all of the vietmese during the vietnam war. So is sg1 committing genocide. The definition of genocide is Deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group. So they fit the defintion, regardless of the purpose, its still genocide.

they will not stop until we all worship them or are dead. Simple as that.

It's us or them.

spg_1983
April 7th, 2006, 05:58 PM
Was eradicating the Goa'uld any different then what they're doing now? not really, if anything, this is less severe then what they did the the goa'uld due to them not actually killing the Ori.

As for it being genocide, I doubt it, because even if there are Ori who don't agree with the rest, they seem content to not involve themselves on our plain so they wont even notice the difference, and really, all we are doing is throwing them into a theoretical prison. So legally, they(Sg1) are doing nothing wrong besides not giving them a trial, however it is reasonably obvious they are guilty
Im sorry when did we "eradicate" the goa'uld? They got their asses kicked by the replicators due to their own arrogance and that was enough of a weakness for the Jaffa to fully overthrow them, but their are still goa'uld out there. They are by no means all dead, just with out power or followers, plotting how to get back into power like Ba'al has been.

Bragi
April 7th, 2006, 07:55 PM
No.

Because it's not really killing them.

It's like standing in the doorway and telling the person trying to get through to go home, shut up, nobody wants you anymore.

It'd be mean if they were benign... but they're not, they're kinda evil and all. So screw them.

mahram
April 7th, 2006, 08:38 PM
yes the gould tried to destroy earth, but they didnt try to destroy the entire human species in the galaxy. Humans however wanted to exterminate all gould around the galaxy.


Taking out the Goa'uld was more self defense, considering that the Goa'uld were always attempting to erradicate Earth.

mahram
April 7th, 2006, 08:41 PM
well she olma was in pain b/c she didnt have the power to rectify her mistakes. The only thing she could do was help others, but she was forced to watch the gould and anubis enslave and kill millions of humans. If you dont tell me thats a type of hell, then I dont know what is. To have the power to stop a monster, but to force to watch them commit crimes, thats hell.

The Ascendeds that Daniel joined, briefly, remain-with one or two minor exceptions like Orlin-on their own plane of existance. Once SG1 gets a chance to use the weapon the Ori will be kept on that same plane of existance.

The Ascended are not dead. They're not suffering. They choose to remain on that plane of existance, so it's quite clearly not like being dead. Using the weapon doesn't even come close to killing them. Nor does it even come close to causing them to live in a vegatative state, like you compared it to, in another post. Was Oma Desala in some kind of hell, or in pain, or feeling as if she was dead? Were all the Ascendeds who inhabited her 'diner'? No. In fact, the Ascendeds have themselves made a rule that they don't permit themselves to come onto our plane of existance. Are they then commiting mass suicide? No, again.

As for the Ascehen-SG1 did not wipe them out either. First, the Aschen was a collective of planets. The worst that would have happened is the Aschen dialed the black hole from one planet, and it was lost to the black hole. All their other planets would have been completely safe. So their society, their culture, and their people would not have been 'wiped out'. Not to mention-the Aschen were supposed to be so much more advanced than we are. We managed, with our comparatively less advanced tech to not get destroyed when we dialed into a black hole-I'd certainly expect the Aschen to be able to save themselves if we could.

metroid
April 7th, 2006, 10:50 PM
mahram SERIOUSLY stop double posting, you can use the freaking edit button or simply answer two posts in 1 reply.

And your still just uttering pointless remarks that aren't even related to the topic.
Oma could have done anything about Anubis ANYTIME she wanted, Daniel was merely the breakthrough that caused her to fight Anubis.
Sure she wasn't happy what happened but it was her own fault and she fixed her mistake by not letting it continue.

Deevil
April 8th, 2006, 02:25 AM
Umm, the Oma situation was akin to living with your mistake. That isn't anything more then a self-proclaimed hell, because she chose not to do anything about it. Then in Threads she chose to do something about it.

Also, you can look at what happened to Oma as a type of prison. She can look out, but she can't interact and fix the exact problem.

It all comes back to a prison, not to death.

Deejay435
April 8th, 2006, 05:14 AM
well she olma was in pain b/c she didnt have the power to rectify her mistakes. The only thing she could do was help others, but she was forced to watch the gould and anubis enslave and kill millions of humans. If you dont tell me thats a type of hell, then I dont know what is. To have the power to stop a monster, but to force to watch them commit crimes, thats hell.

Oma was being punished by her own kind. It was made very clear that she couldn't rectify her mistake regarding Anubis as a punishment for breaking her society's rules. She chose to abide by that punishment, and 'walk the fine line'. Her choice.

But being Ascended, in and of itself, did not cause her pain. Her pain was a result of her own society's rules-which the majority of them follow, and for good reason. (See Daniel's discussion with Orlin in TFH.)

And the point you keep missing is that EXISITING ON THE ASCENDED plane is not painful, not dangerous, not harmful in any way, shape, or form. So forcing the Ori to exist only on the plane they chose to exisit on in the first place can in no way be compared to genocide.

freyr's mother
April 8th, 2006, 08:35 AM
Daniel was quite clear that the device doesn't kill them, it just neutralizes them. It creates interferance on their wavelengths that prevents them from interacting with or affecting this plane of existence. They are still alive, just unable to exert influence or power in our reality. So there is no genocide, where they are trying to commit genocide is in Pegasus against the wraith.

I dont remember this ever being stated. I could be wrong. What ep was it in and can anyone provide a transcript for that ep?

spg_1983
April 8th, 2006, 08:54 AM
I dont remember this ever being stated. I could be wrong. What ep was it in and can anyone provide a transcript for that ep?
I believe it was the begining of "Camelot" or perhaps later in the episode. Daniel did specifically say though that it does not kill them, only neutralize them.

Jackie
March 7th, 2007, 10:14 AM
Has SG-1 committed genocide when they sent Merlin's weapon to wipe out the Ori? Do all the Ori deserve to "die"? In essence SG-1 has neutralized, killed, wiped out--all the Ori because the Ori were trying to make us worship them. Instead of finding if there was an upper level of government that controlled the Ori, SG-1 sent a weapon to wipe them out. They are reportedly dead now. So, was it self defence or Genocide? Was there any proof that ALL the Ori were evil? Granted, Cooper presented us with a faceless enemy that really know nothing about. The enemy was flawed from the start. But did we have the right to KILL ALL the Ori?

Please feel free to debate this question but refrain from attacking one another verbally.

Daniel Jackson
March 7th, 2007, 10:20 AM
We don't know the Ori are dead. (I haven't seen "Dominion.") Assuming they are, SG-1 did indeed commit genocide. However, it was commit genocide or let the Ori conquer the Milky Way by converting people to Origin and killing anyone who doesn't. I'd rather SG-1 commit genocide.

Londo Molari
March 7th, 2007, 10:25 AM
I guess the mass killing of sentient life forms is indeed genocide.

If the Asurans are considered sentient life forms, then it was also genocide when they had their "surgical strike" in Atlantis.

But we have to consider that
- we're fighting a very alien and different form of life
- who have very serious/advanced resources to kill all human beings
- have shown their intention and willingness to kill all human beings

In such a case, I don't know... I guess its about survival... so maybe that makes it ok. Actually considering the fact that they are a SUPERIOR ASCENDED life form, maybe that takes away any and all guilt. It would be like a lion killing a human. The lion isn't responsible, its dumb :p

Daniel Jackson
March 7th, 2007, 10:31 AM
This wouldn't be the first time SG-1 committed genocide. Remember when Carter, Jacob/Selmak, and Ba'al whiped out the Replicators?

Ugly Pig
March 7th, 2007, 10:54 AM
Genocide? No. They only killed the bad ones; the ones that presented a serious threat. There are a whole big bunch of good guys from their kind that SG-1 did not and would not touch. They're called the Ancients.

And I think we all know that they only did it because they had to. It's an "us or them" situation, same as with the Replicators.

Jackie
March 7th, 2007, 11:10 AM
This wouldn't be the first time SG-1 committed genocide. Remember when Carter, Jacob/Selmak, and Ba'al whiped out the Replicators?

Oh, I forgot about the replicators. That would be genicide to some because the life for was self aware. To others it would not because they were machines. I guess that goes to the cylon debaters.

So, IF they have committed genocide...how do you truely justify that. The Ori weren't out to kill ALL the humans. Just the NONBELIEVERS.

So, does the punishment fit the crime? The Ori were out to concur, yes and destroy all non believers and use the power of prayer to (Somehow) get stronger. But does that justify sending a weapon that would wipe out all of them?

I wished they had more time to develop the Ori. It would have been intresting to see if the Ori themselves had a 5th column.

Daniel Jackson
March 7th, 2007, 11:17 AM
Genocide? No. They only killed the bad ones; the ones that presented a serious threat. There are a whole big bunch of good guys from their kind that SG-1 did not and would not touch. They're called the Ancients.
Genocide can also mean whiping out a civilization, so whiping out all Ori would be genocide.


Oh, I forgot about the replicators. That would be genicide to some because the life for was self aware. To others it would not because they were machines. I guess that goes to the cylon debaters.
If they have independent thought and are self aware, they're alive as far as I am concerned.


So, IF they have committed genocide...how do you truely justify that. The Ori weren't out to kill ALL the humans. Just the NONBELIEVERS.
Whiping out entire planets is unacceptable.


So, does the punishment fit the crime? The Ori were out to concur, yes and destroy all non believers and use the power of prayer to (Somehow) get stronger. But does that justify sending a weapon that would wipe out all of them?
Yes. Any Ori who do not support killing nonbelievers better get out of the galaxy while they can.

Mike1989
March 8th, 2007, 12:03 AM
As much as wiping out the Ori was Genocide, what they did also was Genocide if a planet did not convert. They killed them, and they did try to wipe Earth out. Now maybe we should of tried to find a upper escholone of Ori to kill, but the problem is they would of killed us if we didn't convert, so it comes to the old saying.

'Survival of the fitest'.

And unfortunatly, all those things that have posed Earth a threat to date, Gouald, Replicators now the Ori have been needed to have been killed for our survival. I know it sounds harsh that many have to die for us to continue, or even as far as saying we could of saved some, but fact is they would kill us first to survive, so why should we think about the ethics of wiping out a whole race of 'evil' people.

Genocide is sort of wrong, but the Ori if we did not convert would of commited genocide on our race. And then not only would we fall but argueble the galaxy would also.

metabog
March 8th, 2007, 02:08 AM
It's stupid to think about wether or not this was genocide when the Ori clearly expressed their desire to enslave or kill the entire Tau'ri race.

J_B
March 8th, 2007, 03:45 AM
It's stupid to think about wether or not this was genocide when the Ori clearly expressed their desire to enslave or kill the entire Tau'ri race.

As well as any other humans throughout the galaxy who did not bow to them!

Then after they had enough 'followers' they would kill the ascended ancients.

I don't see a problem with it, they have no problem with killing any & all life who don't worship them as the creators of all things.

Bit hard to do, considering they never even knew this galaxy existed in the 1st place!

It's a simple choice, them or you!

Shep
March 8th, 2007, 03:47 AM
It's stupid to think about wether or not this was genocide when the Ori clearly expressed their desire to enslave or kill the entire Tau'ri race.

now, now. don't let anything like logic get in the way of a good condemnation argument.;)

Skydiver
March 8th, 2007, 07:33 AM
to this day, do we have any PROOF that the Ori did not ascend their followers? I mean physical proof. not just daniel's word.

because, as far as i recall, the Ori are 'bad' solely cause daniel said that they were. and daniel was just repeating what an ancient told him. an ancient who was the enemy of the people they were talking about. Not quite a sterling example. :)

they committed genocide by the simple definition of the term

the systematic killing of all the people from a national, ethnic, or religious group, or an attempt to do this

the Ori are a religious group, the weapon did/has the potential to kill them all.

Did the Ori commit genocide? yes, also by that definition. they did, however, allow for conversion to 'save' a person's life.

The same way that the Trust, in Endgame when they sent missiles of symbiote poison through the gate committed genocide. they sent a targeted attack to kill all symbiotes (which happen to be sentient beings by the way) and the jaffa died as a result.

kymeric
March 8th, 2007, 07:36 AM
Has SG-1 committed genocide when they sent Merlin's weapon to wipe out the Ori? Do all the Ori deserve to "die"? In essence SG-1 has neutralized, killed, wiped out--all the Ori because the Ori were trying to make us worship them. Instead of finding if there was an upper level of government that controlled the Ori, SG-1 sent a weapon to wipe them out. They are reportedly dead now. So, was it self defence or Genocide? Was there any proof that ALL the Ori were evil? Granted, Cooper presented us with a faceless enemy that really know nothing about. The enemy was flawed from the start. But did we have the right to KILL ALL the Ori?

Please feel free to debate this question but refrain from attacking one another verbally.

They started it!

Never raise up more devil than you can put down.

jenks
March 8th, 2007, 09:47 AM
I'm not sure it's genocide, could all of the Ori be considered enemy combatants?

mrdice87
March 8th, 2007, 03:29 PM
"racial, political, or cultural group" has nothing to do with species... was it genocide when humans wiped out neanderthals?

do you stand by and let someone kill you or do you stop them?

even if the device actually killed them, it's simply trying to survive. as long as the ori exist, they will try to destroy or subjugate humans.

Jimbo-DR
March 8th, 2007, 03:58 PM
Of course not... Using your liberal definition of genocide every war every fought would be genocide. Genocide is the deliberate destruction of a group of people because, in basis, you feel like it. Defending yourselves against such a powerful force can hardly be considered genocide. If it were, then isn't killing all the Goa'uld Genocide? Isn't killing Iraqi's genocide? Wasn't World War II one big huge group of genocides all rolled into one? Of course not, its war, in war there is death and destruction, its never been any other way.

Skydiver
March 8th, 2007, 04:43 PM
the 'liberal' definition is c/p out of the dictionary

How do we know that there weren't innocents there? What if only the most devout got to try and convert and there are whole planets of innocent Ori there?

Maybe there is, maybe there isn't. we don't know.

SG-1 basically let loose the equivalent of a biological weapon and are justifying it by 'well, the ancients DID say they were evil'

I'm not defending the Ori. They did kill people. but they WERE massacred indiscriminantly and we still don't have anthing beyond daniels' word that they were pure evil.

PG15
March 8th, 2007, 05:51 PM
the 'liberal' definition is c/p out of the dictionary



Oh my Gods, Stephen Colbert is right! Reality has a liberal bias...


:D

Metonic
March 8th, 2007, 06:23 PM
.

If the Ori are trapped in a higher dimension, they are imprisioned in that dimension but they are not dead. They cannot exit, but does that mean they cannot see? Hear and feel?? Nope, just means that they are trapped behind at least temporarily inpentarbale walls.

WTF!!?! where did u get this trash from! THey are eithe dead or not dead.. not imprisoned. The weapon either worked or didnt if it did then they are DEAD! The weapon cancels out their life just like the dakara weapon canceled out the replicaters lifes

Elitenova
March 8th, 2007, 06:25 PM
personally, i don't think we're deliberately going out into the universe trying to wipe out the Ori. i think that if they had stayed put where they were we would have had no reason to want to defend ourselves against them. they are the one coming here to exact retribution on us. they're the ones building the supergates and ships for the sole purpose of getting us to join them or be wiped out. all i see us doing is trying to preserve our way of existence the best way we know how. we've already seen Daniel trying to resolve various situations with Priors peacefully to no avail. so i guess the question is, what is the right course of action in a situation that calls for immediate attention against an enemy with superior technology that won't listen unless you're saying what they want?

Defend Earth at all cost.

Skydiver
March 8th, 2007, 06:47 PM
just like the ori defended their faith at all costs

garhkal
March 8th, 2007, 08:38 PM
SG-1 basically let loose the equivalent of a biological weapon and are justifying it by 'well, the ancients DID say they were evil'

I'm not defending the Ori. They did kill people. but they WERE massacred indiscriminantly and we still don't have anthing beyond daniels' word that they were pure evil.

So you don't consider whiping out whole planets, burning anyone who does not convert and colapsing whole planets to form a black hole powered supergate evil?

DaCk
March 8th, 2007, 10:25 PM
I dont think it was genocide. They said before that it does NOT kill the Ori, merely creates a layer of interference between the planes of existence that cancels out their ability to use their powers to affect our plane. Therefore the Ori are still very much alive, they just cant do anything. Thats why it is NOT genocide.

And as for the replicators they were not sentient. They existed only to create more of themselves. The human form replicators are sentient. However when setting off the Dakara device it did not kill mass numbers of human form replicators, only one the Replicator Carter. And im pretty sure that isnt a "mass" killing. It was more an act of self defence.

And genocide on the Asurans. No that cant be counted. Because for one that was a bombing. No one on Earth (that i can think of) has ever called an Aerial bombing genocide. And as we saw Oberoth once again even though he was already killed. And he said that we can be created over and over. So they will probably just recreate everyone that was killed. They must keep all their memories too because he remembered weir and what happened. So therefor its more of just a taking them out of the "picture" for a while. Like the cylons....

g.o.d
March 9th, 2007, 01:10 AM
I dont think it was genocide. They said before that it does NOT kill the Ori, merely creates a layer of interference between the planes of existence that cancels out their ability to use their powers to affect our plane. Therefore the Ori are still very much alive, they just cant do anything. Thats why it is NOT genocide.




we don't how the weapon works.Kvasir said that it channels the energy from subscape and cancels the Ori out(simple analogy is two standing waves canceling each them out).Others said it kills them; Baal said the Ori are dead


nothing was said about creating a layer of interference

Professor Chaos
March 9th, 2007, 09:17 AM
Personally, i'm not too concerned whether they committed genocide against a race of power hungry serial killers as a last resort, in self defence. :rolleyes:

jenks
March 9th, 2007, 09:21 AM
Personally, i'm not too concerned whether they committed genocide against a race of power hungry serial killers as a last resort, in self defence. :rolleyes:

But are they all like that?

IcyNeko
March 9th, 2007, 10:02 AM
Have the non-power hungry ones done anything to stop the others that are? If not, they're all guilty. :P

Professor Chaos
March 9th, 2007, 10:27 AM
Have the non-power hungry ones done anything to stop the others that are? If not, they're all guilty. :P

Or at the very least the ones that aren't could have left for another galaxy/dimension.

Ugly Pig
March 9th, 2007, 02:18 PM
Or at the very least the ones that aren't could have left for another galaxy/dimension.

They did. ;)

Skydiver
March 9th, 2007, 03:04 PM
we've been told....by a part of thier race that experimented on sentient beings (the black cloud creature from s1), not to mention the iratus bugs and the wraith and how they came to be made. by a race that's 'guided' other planets along the 'right' path (the Game) and who have a really bad habit of making messes, then bailing and leaving everyone else behind to clean up after them

Yep, real outstanding citizens of the universe there. and trustworthy too.

I am not defending that the Ori murdered whole planets. That was bad and evil and wrong and whatever else you want to call it.

but, to this day we lack some real answers

are ALL the Ori like this? or are there Ori classes and that weapon just murdered the subjugated ones amongst them that don't murder

is it true that the Ori don't ascend their followers? Do we have proof beyond 'merlin/oma told me so'

We - the sgc - chose sides before we knew all the facts. and we still don't know them all. And we sided with a familiar group...that's also less than trustworty

jenks
March 10th, 2007, 11:16 AM
Have the non-power hungry ones done anything to stop the others that are? If not, they're all guilty. :P

Yeah but if we used that logic we would have nuked Iraq and Afghanistan a long time ago.