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View Full Version : Truth behind the Ancient/Ori conflict...pure speculation, possible a spoiler or two.



JanusAncient
March 30th, 2006, 11:11 PM
Fact: Orlin said, that the conflict between the Ancients and the Ori, happened because one chose science, the other religion, or more precisely ascension.

The Ori side of the story will be, that they are only trying to prevent the Ancient's from conquering the universe. That they do actually allow their followers to ascend, that the Ancient's are the true evil.

Speculation: What if they are both telling the truth? The Ancient's in their
quest for power chose to pursue science, in their pursuit to dominate the universe, fearing this result the Ori tried to wipe them out, but they failed, they then spent the next few million years researching ascension, in order to
gain an upper hand on the Ancients.

We know, or we suspect, that the Ancients traveled the universe for thousands of years, probably just to find the right place to seed a new race of humans, maybe even seeding human life along the way. This comes to my question, why seed a new race of humans, in two galaxies that we know of. The story is, that the Ancient's were replenishing the Milky Way galaxy with life, after a plague wiped them out. We know that the plague was similar, in its effects, to the current Ori plague, but to our current knowledge the Ori plague only effects humans. So why replenish life, if they were they only life in the galaxy??

This is the way the show should go, I know that many won't like it, but here it is anyway. What if the Ancient's, as exceedingly arrogant as they are, created the plague to destroy all alien life in the galaxy, thinking they are superior to other races, so that they could recreate a galaxy of humans, but the Ori having ascended some 5,000,000 years ago, use their plague against them, again nearly wiping the Ancients out, but this didn't prevent them from using Dakara device, on a few unoccupied planets, in the hopes of creating a new race of humans.

What if the Ori are protecting alien races, as far as we know, the Ancient's have only shared their knowledge willing with humanoid races, even now they are only attempting to save humans. People will say, that the Ancient Merlin, he created an anti-ascended being weapon, why did he invent it, he obviously had the technology to create this device, he could have just as easily sent it through to the Ori galaxy, well maybe the Ancient's prevented him from sending the weapon, more likely it was always intended for people in the Milky Way to use.

One last thing, Orlin said, that the Ori gain power from sapping energy, from those who worship them. What I can't figure out, is if it is merely through worship, how can the Ancient's even contend with the Ori threat, because if it was the Ori, that unleashed the plague in the Milky Way, that would mean to two the Ori tried to wipe them out. Either the Ancient's reproduce rather quickly, which is unlikely since 3,000,000 years after they arrived in Pegasus, they were still outnumbered by the Wraith, who evolved sometime after they came to be in Pegasus. Or, it is something more akin to trust, that allows power to be drained from those beneath.

I know that people are going to cut this to pieces, but there are just far too many holes in the Ancient's story for me to believe them just yet.

aAnubiSs
March 30th, 2006, 11:17 PM
Regarding zapping power from worshippers: Why don't they just set up a billion cloning facilities and clone their way to total domination?

I've always said that I don't think the Ancients are the good beings 'everyone' think they are.

It would be a nice twist to see the Ori as the protector of alien life, and they use religion as a weapon towards the Ancients powerbase(humans) because we are stupid and easy to manipulate simply by showing them a nice lightshow ;) (As you might notice I'm not a big fan of religion)

metroid
March 30th, 2006, 11:33 PM
The ancients infact devolved after leaving the MW, this is noticable through the fact that the Pegasus ancients don't appear to have any of the powers that the MW Ancients had. The only Pegasus ancients (Before i sleep) we met had been there for about 3 million years so it's only natural that they had to mingle with the normal humans they seeded aswell because after 3 million years they would all have to be related.

From what i remember, the Prior that created the plague manipulated his own DNA to make the plague human specific.

You also shouldn't forget that when the plague hit the MW (3 million years ago) it killed alot of ancients (some reached ascension, alot died, most went to Pegasus) so why would they kill their own people? Highly unlikely.

They reseeded the MW after the plague had died. Why would they want to reseed the MW if it was their intention to just kill everyone and be the dominant species..?

Gregorius
March 30th, 2006, 11:43 PM
What if they both thought they were superior to the other and started fighting. The Ori still had tech and they defeated the Ancients who fled to the Milky way. In the Milky way the Ancients rebuilded their civilization and Atlantis left for Pegasus.

Soon after that the Ori come and release a plague to wipe out their ancient nemisis, the Ancients are, again, almost defeated. The remaining, sick, Ancients create the device on Dakara after their experiment on the planet of WoO didn't produce the antidote their needed.

They use the device on Dakara to create new, sentient, life on all planets that's like them, but only less evolved and has the ability to fight the plague off if their immune system is triggered in the right way (Frozen). But their intentions are not noble for they have the same idea as the Ori had, be it in a different from. Whilst the Ori want lesser beings to worship them and gain more power in that way, the Ancients want the lesser beings, in tim, to Ascend in order to create an army of Ascended beings capable of destroying their old time nemesis.

Soon after the device on Dakara finishes its work the last of the Ancients in the Milky way Ascend, leaving Atlantis their last sole outpost. The Atlantians research ascension etc., but are also guiding the humans in that galaxy towards Ascension in order to create their Ascended army. Unfortunately the Wraith evolve and disrupt the Ancients's plan forcing them to retreat to the Milky Way.

Back in the Milky Way the last of the Ancients form the Alliance with the Asgard, the Nox and the Furlings entrusting those three races with the protection of the Galaxy against the great enemy (Read as Ori). The last of the Ancients ascend and help the other Ascended Ancients shield both this galaxy and the Pegasus galaxy from the Ori so their army can grow.

The Ori shield their Galaxy from the Ancients and create their army of followers. They destroy the non-believers in order to prevent they would ever Ascend and join their enemies the Ancients.

The war between the Ancients and Ori never stopped, they were both rebuilding their armies with the lesser beings being mere pawns in their game. Neither of them cares for the lesser beings, they only care about winning and seeing who's philosophy is right. The Ori's philosophy of actively interfering with the lower planes or the Ancients' philosophy of non-interferance.

The way I see it this entire arc is just like the Vorlons vs The Shadows in B5. Just a big homage with subtile differences.

Mickey23
March 31st, 2006, 04:23 AM
I think making the Ancients "bad" could really be a problem for both SG-1 and SGA. Although they try to keep the two show separate, they do influence each other. Would having the Ancients evil/bad negatively influence what is going on in Atlantis? It might mean that the Ancients/Lanteans are also bad and detracts from the good v. evil conflict in the Pegasus Galaxy. I guess the writers and producers will have thought of that.
On the other hand, maybe I really don't know what I am talking about and that will not affect Atlantis to have them doing bad things since they are gone anyway.

MarshAngel
March 31st, 2006, 06:45 AM
I think making the Ancients "bad" could really be a problem for both SG-1 and SGA. Although they try to keep the two show separate, they do influence each other. Would having the Ancients evil/bad negatively influence what is going on in Atlantis? It might mean that the Ancients/Lanteans are also bad and detracts from the good v. evil conflict in the Pegasus Galaxy. I guess the writers and producers will have thought of that.
On the other hand, maybe I really don't know what I am talking about and that will not affect Atlantis to have them doing bad things since they are gone anyway.

I agree. This would not be good for the show at all. It would shake the foundation of the series and erode the established writing style and it would be very hard to fit this in after nine years of making them out to be good and wise.

In Atlantis we also live in their city, use their tech, would gladly accept their help if they offered (the kind of help we didn't accept from the Eurondans). If the ancients turned out to be evil it would muddy the waters of the war with the wraith and we'd be forced to consider that by killing the wraith we'd be guilty of finishing a plan of racially motivated genocide.

If they had been dropping bread crumbs and seeding the idea throughout the series I could understand this possibility but if they were to decide to do this it would seem as if their just tacking on something without considering what the show is and where it has been.

The main problem is the show is straightforward. There are some things that are fundamental and unchangeable. SG1 are the good guys. There can be no changing of this. The Stargate is a good thing (not inherently, just our use of it), there can be no changing of this either. If the Ancients, who built the central theme of the show are suddenly evil and we are the second evolution, and albeit subtly we've been following in their footsteps, but suddenly it turns out they're just like theEurondans... we have a problem. What this says is everything we've believed is basically wrong.

If this were any other show this idea would be great. As a story by itself I have to admit it's very intriguing. I love the idea that they would be destroying other alien life to replace it with their own. I just don't think it works well for the show.

Ultimately SG1 is just not that complicated. In the end the good guys must win and when you no longer can clearly see who that is, it's no longer the same show. It's a little too late to mix it up.

FallenAngelII
March 31st, 2006, 07:09 AM
Fact: Orlin said, that the conflict between the Ancients and the Ori, happened because one chose science, the other religion, or more precisely ascension.

The Ori side of the story will be, that they are only trying to prevent the Ancient's from conquering the universe. That they do actually allow their followers to ascend, that the Ancient's are the true evil.

Speculation: What if they are both telling the truth? The Ancient's in their
quest for power chose to pursue science, in their pursuit to dominate the universe, fearing this result the Ori tried to wipe them out, but they failed, they then spent the next few million years researching ascension, in order to
gain an upper hand on the Ancients.

We know, or we suspect, that the Ancients traveled the universe for thousands of years, probably just to find the right place to seed a new race of humans, maybe even seeding human life along the way. This comes to my question, why seed a new race of humans, in two galaxies that we know of. The story is, that the Ancient's were replenishing the Milky Way galaxy with life, after a plague wiped them out. We know that the plague was similar, in its effects, to the current Ori plague, but to our current knowledge the Ori plague only effects humans. So why replenish life, if they were they only life in the galaxy??

This is the way the show should go, I know that many won't like it, but here it is anyway. What if the Ancient's, as exceedingly arrogant as they are, created the plague to destroy all alien life in the galaxy, thinking they are superior to other races, so that they could recreate a galaxy of humans, but the Ori having ascended some 5,000,000 years ago, use their plague against them, again nearly wiping the Ancients out, but this didn't prevent them from using Dakara device, on a few unoccupied planets, in the hopes of creating a new race of humans.

What if the Ori are protecting alien races, as far as we know, the Ancient's have only shared their knowledge willing with humanoid races, even now they are only attempting to save humans. People will say, that the Ancient Merlin, he created an anti-ascended being weapon, why did he invent it, he obviously had the technology to create this device, he could have just as easily sent it through to the Ori galaxy, well maybe the Ancient's prevented him from sending the weapon, more likely it was always intended for people in the Milky Way to use.

One last thing, Orlin said, that the Ori gain power from sapping energy, from those who worship them. What I can't figure out, is if it is merely through worship, how can the Ancient's even contend with the Ori threat, because if it was the Ori, that unleashed the plague in the Milky Way, that would mean to two the Ori tried to wipe them out. Either the Ancient's reproduce rather quickly, which is unlikely since 3,000,000 years after they arrived in Pegasus, they were still outnumbered by the Wraith, who evolved sometime after they came to be in Pegasus. Or, it is something more akin to trust, that allows power to be drained from those beneath.

I know that people are going to cut this to pieces, but there are just far too many holes in the Ancient's story for me to believe them just yet.

The writers have clearly stated that the Ori did not create the original plague.

The Alliance had the Ancients, Asgard, Furling and Nox in it. Neither the Asgard nor the Furlings are humanoid. Clearly, all 3 of these races existed before the plague and the use of the Dakarra weapon. Somehow they managed to survive the plague AND the Dakarra weapon. The Asgard were probably in another galaxy (or they might have moved there after the Alliance was formed or right before the plague or after, we have no way of knowing).

The Furlings are gone somewhere, so we don't know. However, the Nox are still living in their Noxy homeworld. Maybe they travelled by spaceship to another galaxy before the use of the Dakarra weapon.

And I doubt the Ancients would be able to, as a whole, pull off something this huge without the Asgard or Nox knowing. Not to mention to be able to block this knowledge from other Ascended beings ascending on their own (Jaffa, others) and who ascended thanks to Oma (Daniel, Abydos, monk, Shifu, etc.).

Also, the Wraith did not evolve "shortly after the Ancients arrived". The Ancients arrived in the Pegasus Galaxy millions of years ago. The Wraith War only lasted a little more than 100 years. So unless the Wraith were feeding on humans/Ancients for a few million years leaving behind mummified corpses without no one noticing, they evolved a looooooong time after the arrival of the Ancients.

Mickey23
March 31st, 2006, 07:20 AM
I agree. This would not be good for the show at all. It would shake the foundation of the series and erode the established writing style and it would be very hard to fit this in after nine years of making them out to be good and wise.

In Atlantis we also live in their city, use their tech, would gladly accept their help if they offered (the kind of help we didn't accept from the Eurondans). If the ancients turned out to be evil it would muddy the waters of the war with the wraith and we'd be forced to consider that by killing the wraith we'd be guilty of finishing a plan of racially motivated genocide.

If they had been dropping bread crumbs and seeding the idea throughout the series I could understand this possibility but if they were to decide to do this it would seem as if their just tacking on something without considering what the show is and where it has been.

The main problem is the show is straightforward. There are some things that are fundamental and unchangeable. SG1 are the good guys. There can be no changing of this. The Stargate is a good thing (not inherently, just our use of it), there can be no changing of this either. If the Ancients, who built the central theme of the show are suddenly evil and we are the second evolution, and albeit subtly we've been following in their footsteps, but suddenly it turns out they're just like theEurondans... we have a problem. What this says is everything we've believed is basically wrong.


Gee, MarshAngel. I'm glad to see someone agrees with me and you said that so much more eloquently than I ever could! :)

FerCryinOutLoud!
March 31st, 2006, 09:10 AM
they then spent the next few million years researching ascension,

If ascension is a form of evolution how could you research it before it ever happened, or you even knew what it was? You would know it was acension only after the fact it happened, only after you evolved. You wouldn't know you were evolved until after it happened. You also couldn't research ascension until after you knew it was possible. Evolution is a sudden change after a long period of time in which your progress as a biological specimen reaches a pique, changing you into a new form with a new purpose. I don't believe in evolution, but if you're going to use that as a theme in your speculation about stargate, try to use it right. I like this show and though they use evolution a lot to explain things they also leave it open to be explained in other ways. There's never a definite sure thing in stargate. It's science fiction. Only a god deals in absolutes. God-like beings and those who pretend to be a god is a recurring theme in this show and SG-1 seemingly seeks to seperate the fakes and phonies from the real and legitimate. I didn't mean to give a lecture, or to sound preachy so apologies to any who felt so.

Gregorius
March 31st, 2006, 10:30 AM
If ascension is a form of evolution how could you research it before it ever happened, or you even knew what it was?

You can research things before you know what it is, that's how we developed computer, the internet, our current level of technology.


You would know it was acension only after the fact it happened, only after you evolved. You wouldn't know you were evolved until after it happened. You also couldn't research ascension until after you knew it was possible.

Ascension is merely a term. And you research something because you're curious if it's possible. Of course you can research ascension before you know it's possible, if the results of your research then state it's impossible fine. But you can research something before you know it's possible.


Evolution is a sudden change after a long period of time in which your progress as a biological specimen reaches a pique, changing you into a new form with a new purpose.

Great Scott! And here I thought evolution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution) was the gradual change of a species over time and in also refered to as the adaptational ability/development of a species. Thank you for correcting the entire scientific community.


I don't believe in evolution, but if you're going to use that as a theme in your speculation about stargate, try to use it right.

I suggest you look up the definition ofevolution (http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?gwp=13&s=evolution) in a dictionary :)

JanusAncient
March 31st, 2006, 05:53 PM
The writers have clearly stated that the Ori did not create the original plague.

Neither the Asgard nor the Furlings are humanoid. Clearly, all 3 of these races existed before the plague and the use of the Dakarra weapon. Somehow they managed to survive the plague AND the Dakarra weapon. The Asgard were probably in another galaxy (or they might have moved there after the Alliance was formed or right before the plague or after, we have no way of knowing).


Actually, the Asgard are humanoid, as seen in the episode "Revelations." They look as they do now, more than likely because of their cloning process.
And, we don't know what the Furlings looked like, but if the skeletons in the episode "Paradise Lost," were actually Furling, they tooo were humanoid.



Also, the Wraith did not evolve "shortly after the Ancients arrived". The Ancients arrived in the Pegasus Galaxy millions of years ago. The Wraith War only lasted a little more than 100 years. So unless the Wraith were feeding on humans/Ancients for a few million years leaving behind mummified corpses without no one noticing, they evolved a looooooong time after the arrival of the Ancients.


You're right, the Wraith didn't evolve shortly after the Ancients arrived in Pegasus, but they did evolve some time after they decided to seed human life their. Eventhough the war only lasted a century, the Wraith still had to have had a pretty impressive fleet, otherwise the Ancients would have wiped them out, and would not have had to flee the Pegasus galaxy.

MarshAngel is right, Stargate Sg-1, just isn't this complex, but I would love it so much more if it were, perhaps after the show ends, Atlantis will take on a life of its own, and do things, that Sg-1 could never do.