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thenimf
March 16th, 2006, 04:31 PM
In the Fourth Horseman Pt 2 the Prior that got disabled began preaching to Orlin when Orlin begun to speak. Naturally we all listened to Orlin and tuned out to what the Prior was saying... but he did say some very important stuff.

Now, I'm at work so I can't really look up his exact words... But he said that the O'ri were born from the rift (no doubt the moment the Alterrans split off) and that the Alterrans travelled the universe and spread death and destruction wherever they went, hence evil. What if the O'ri are destroying the Ancients in as a precautionary measure to protect themselves? Let's look at what the Ancients brought the Universe.


1. The Wraith - Space vamps with a bad attitude. Death and destruction.

2. The "groundhog day" device - A device that loops time. Pure chaos here, ignoring of course the theory that it was made to come up with a cure for the plague

3. The Dakara weapon - WMD of the great scale we've seen so far

4. The Holy Grail - Anti-ascendant WMD, ignoring of course that it was made by a rogue Ancient

5. The Asurans - a freaky spin off of a virus

6. The gate network - Ultimately allowing the Goa'uld to take control of the entire galaxy. I doubt their homeworld would've given them this capacity alone.

7. The gate warping device Anubis used


Now, my theory is that the Ancients like fighting... and so they go around picking fights and creating enemies. It's possible even that the Wraith and O'ri were the only enemies capable of overpowering them. *shrugs*

Either that or the Ancients just had so many misguided scientific ventures that went wrong. After all, one would have quite a few mistakes after a few million years of advancement. The O'ri seem like the kind of race that would've ascended through meditation and spiritual means.

deadman
March 16th, 2006, 04:58 PM
interesting theory, I mised that episode, so I'll make sure to catch it if it is on again

Gateboy13
March 16th, 2006, 05:07 PM
Either that or the Ancients just had so many misguided scientific ventures that went wrong. After all, one would have quite a few mistakes after a few million years of advancement.


Yes, during the course of 50 million years you are bound to make a few mistakes.

npattis
March 16th, 2006, 05:18 PM
But it will be interesting to see if the Ancients are somewhat evil. Would make an EXCELLENT story arch.

spg_1983
March 16th, 2006, 05:21 PM
1. The Wraith - Space vamps with a bad attitude. Death and destruction.

2. The "groundhog day" device - A device that loops time. Pure chaos here, ignoring of course the theory that it was made to come up with a cure for the plague

3. The Dakara weapon - WMD of the great scale we've seen so far

4. The Holy Grail - Anti-ascendant WMD, ignoring of course that it was made by a rogue Ancient

5. The Asurans - a freaky spin off of a virus

6. The gate network - Ultimately allowing the Goa'uld to take control of the entire galaxy. I doubt their homeworld would've given them this capacity alone.

7. The gate warping device Anubis used

1. The Wraith were an accident, even if it were suspect about the Ancients claim that it was an accident, our experience with the near virulent nature of Iratus bug DNA lends itself to supporting the accident explanation.

2. Chaos perhaps but how is it evil? You can not actually change the future because it is a loop and everything resets when the loop restarts

3. The Dakara DEVICE was not a weapon. It was constructed after all or very near all life in the galaxy had been wiped out by the plague as a means to prepare the galaxy for recreation. Yes we used it as a weapon, but in the same way as someone can pick up a meat cleaver and chop someones head off. Does that make the meat cleaver a weapon in the same sense as a gun? No because its intended purpose in being created is to chop food for eating, not killing.

4. We don't know exactly that it kills, we know that it interferese with the energy frequency that the Ascended exist at. For all we know it merely renders them harmless, in the same way Oma neutralized Anubis, niether is "dead" but they are locked in an eternal state where they neutralize each others ability to affect the universe.

5. I dont remember the Asuran's who were they?

6. Calling the gatenetwork evil because it allowed the goa'uld to take over the galaxy is like saying a company that paves roads is guilty of aiding and abetting a foriegn countries invasion because their tanks used the roads.


If anything an argument can be made that the Ancients were irresponsible and arrogant because they left behind loads of technology that could cause harm in the wrong hands and arrogant because they feel that by Ascending that the consequences of their discoveries being used by other races are not their concern, but you can't consider them the bad guys. Litter bugs yes, evil no.

thenimf
March 16th, 2006, 05:53 PM
1. The Wraith were an accident, even if it were suspect about the Ancients claim that it was an accident, our experience with the near virulent nature of Iratus bug DNA lends itself to supporting the accident explanation.

2. Chaos perhaps but how is it evil? You can not actually change the future because it is a loop and everything resets when the loop restarts

3. The Dakara DEVICE was not a weapon. It was constructed after all or very near all life in the galaxy had been wiped out by the plague as a means to prepare the galaxy for recreation. Yes we used it as a weapon, but in the same way as someone can pick up a meat cleaver and chop someones head off. Does that make the meat cleaver a weapon in the same sense as a gun? No because its intended purpose in being created is to chop food for eating, not killing.

4. We don't know exactly that it kills, we know that it interferese with the energy frequency that the Ascended exist at. For all we know it merely renders them harmless, in the same way Oma neutralized Anubis, niether is "dead" but they are locked in an eternal state where they neutralize each others ability to affect the universe.

5. I dont remember the Asuran's who were they?

6. Calling the gatenetwork evil because it allowed the goa'uld to take over the galaxy is like saying a company that paves roads is guilty of aiding and abetting a foriegn countries invasion because their tanks used the roads.


If anything an argument can be made that the Ancients were irresponsible and arrogant because they left behind loads of technology that could cause harm in the wrong hands and arrogant because they feel that by Ascending that the consequences of their discoveries being used by other races are not their concern, but you can't consider them the bad guys. Litter bugs yes, evil no.
1. Apart from heresay stories, no evidence suggests that this was an accident. In fact, the Wraith have so much relation to Ancient technology, and even share the same written language (virtually identical), so it's easy to connect the dots and see the Ancients made the Wraith on purpose.

2. I find it pretty evil to cause chaos on purpose. You could kill someone everyday and they would never remember... crap like that.

3. It is only theorized that device was used to restore all life in the galaxy... and if the Ancients covered up the Wraith I doubt they'd share the truth about this, considering it's a far more serious threat.

4. Regardless of what it does to them, it is a weapon that interferes with the way they go about their business and in that sense it is capable of evil.

5. Stand by for Season 3 of Atlantis ;-) These guys are probably related to Replicators

6. Note that the Ancients did some time travelling and were aware that the Goa'uld would take over the galaxy one day, yet put no measures in place to prevent it. Also, they did nothing when they went back to Earth and Ra came over.

Bragi
March 16th, 2006, 05:56 PM
If anything an argument can be made that the Ancients were irresponsible and arrogant because they left behind loads of technology that could cause harm in the wrong hands and arrogant because they feel that by Ascending that the consequences of their discoveries being used by other races are not their concern, but you can't consider them the bad guys. Litter bugs yes, evil no.

Thank you!


5. Stand by for Season 3 of Atlantis ;-) These guys are probably related to Replicators

If it's related to season 3 of Atlantis then it's spoiler information and needs to be contained in a [spoiler ] tag.

The Ori
March 16th, 2006, 06:00 PM
Hey Peeps, Yeh I think maybe the Asurans may be the new enemy in Atlantis. Maybe. But what an incredible story line linking ythe Asurans back to the S01 Ep "Hot Zone" and also to the Replicator story line as well. Hmmm. I like the ideas peeps.

thenimf
March 16th, 2006, 06:16 PM
I feel we're not actually giving enough detail to justify spoiler tags. Though if a mod feels we are then I'll be happy to edit.

spg_1983
March 16th, 2006, 06:19 PM
1. Apart from heresay stories, no evidence suggests that this was an accident. In fact, the Wraith have so much relation to Ancient technology, and even share the same written language (virtually identical), so it's easy to connect the dots and see the Ancients made the Wraith on purpose.Not neccesarily. The story is that the Iratus bug attacked humans and became the wraith. The humans were created by the Ancients and would have had contact with them. The only technology and language around was that of the Ancients. So it is no surprise that in taking over and assimilating new technology and language into their new society it would be Ancient.


2. I find it pretty evil to cause chaos on purpose. You could kill someone everyday and they would never remember... crap like that.How is it causing chaos on purpose? The story is that they created the device to give themselves more time to find a cure. Thats all it does. At first I agreed with you that it caused chaos but now on reflection I rescind that because it doesn't. Those caguht in the loop as a side effect dont even know they are, only the people that operate the device remain unchanged. If everyone that was affected remembered and kept looping THAT would be chaos, but there is no evidence that the Ancients used it in such a manner or that it can even be used in any harmful way.


3. It is only theorized that device was used to restore all life in the galaxy... and if the Ancients covered up the Wraith I doubt they'd share the truth about this, considering it's a far more serious threat.No the device does nothing to restore life in the galaxy and although that is what most people believe and assume it is incorrect. Go back and rewatch the explanation of the device. it generates an energy way that breaks down all matter to its basic elements so that the life cycle can be restarted. there is no mention that the Dakaran device is the device that does the retarting and it is ludicrous to think that it is. It is an unfocused energy wave, it can not restart the diverse and specific ecologies of millions of planets, the ancients would have had to have other devices that they used on each planet to restart the life. The Dakaran device is just a reset button, thats all it was meant to be and the Ancients didnt try to obscure that fact. So nothing insidiuous there


4. Regardless of what it does to them, it is a weapon that interferes with the way they go about their business and in that sense it is capable of evil.Is a jail cell for a violent criminal evil because it prevents them from going about their business? Same thing.


5. Stand by for Season 3 of Atlantis ;-) These guys are probably related to ReplicatorsIf you are talking about the new enemy that is supposed to be the one that made the virus ok Im with you, but I havent seen any spoilers to say that they are Ancients themselves


6. Note that the Ancients did some time travelling and were aware that the Goa'uld would take over the galaxy one day, yet put no measures in place to prevent it. Also, they did nothing when they went back to Earth and Ra came over.
No we have evidence that ONE ancient did some time traveling, Janus. And the other Ancients were really pissed off when they found out that Weir came back in time with the device because they are really strict about not screwing with the time line. janus broke the rule on the one planet, possibly as an experiment, but we have absolutely no evidence that he did it anywhere else, or any other Ancients ever did it either, but based on the other Ancients reactions in "Before I Sleep" It is inceribly unlikely they did. When the Ancients returned from Atlantis they were few in number and would have arrived in Antartica. The would not have known of Ra if he was there yet, though it is unlikely since then there would have been two active gates with DHD's on the planet that would have caused problems. At the point that they returned the Ancient empire would have already disappeared so they would have been alone, the rest of their kind already Ascended. What was a hand ful of them supposed to do about the Goa'uld? Their kind had moved on, it was no longer their concern, the galaxy was a different place, so they went to join their race by Ascending. Perhaps its a bit apathetic towards the people left behind to suffer under the goa'uld, but certainly not evil.

thenimf
March 16th, 2006, 07:09 PM
spg_1983, Agree to disagree I guess. Our contradicting points are all a matter of interpretation of the information we've been given thus far. I don't see a point in debating further, with you anyway. :)

Chutzpah
March 16th, 2006, 07:51 PM
Personally i think there has been enough evidence throughout both SG1 and SGA to concluded that they are not evil. A couple off the top of my head

- They were in that Alliance, one member was the Asgard. They don't strike me as the type of conspire with evil races

- In Aurora, they have shown they want to destroy they Wraith.

- The translation of the writing on the stairs of Atlantis (no idea if that is correct)

- Contact with ascended beings. They all seem pretty goodie goodie to me, and when know that ascesion doesn't automatically make you a good person.

- The Ancient in Antartica healed jack and from what i understand, sacrificed herself.

Sure they may have made mistakes and their technology may not have been used for it's intended purpose but that in no way makes them the bad guys.

Bragi
March 16th, 2006, 07:53 PM
I declare the winner of this thread: spg1983.

The reason? He rebuttles contained cogent thought.

I'm sorry nimf, but you made no cogent arguments for the Ancients being evil. Your entire hypothesis is built upon pure conjecture and a lack of sufficient evidence.

Spg1983 fired back with complete statements with official canon as his source, not personal opinion. His analogous argument (in reference to your fourth point) is a good one.

Simply put, the canon of the show, at this point, supports spg1983's point of view more than it does yours.

thenimf
March 16th, 2006, 08:20 PM
I declare the winner of this thread: spg1983.

The reason? He rebuttles contained cogent thought.

I'm sorry nimf, but you made no cogent arguments for the Ancients being evil. Your entire hypothesis is built upon pure conjecture and a lack of sufficient evidence.

Spg1983 fired back with complete statements with official canon as his source, not personal opinion. His analogous argument (in reference to your fourth point) is a good one.

Simply put, the canon of the show, at this point, supports spg1983's point of view more than it does yours.

I'm sorry Miss Bragi, I'll structure arguments in future that account for your intellect. Go **** yourself.

fortyseven
March 16th, 2006, 08:42 PM
The creation of the Wraith wasn't an accident it was negligence.

The Ancients aren't evil. The Ori certainly seem evil from what we've seen so far.

the fifth man
March 16th, 2006, 09:35 PM
The Ancients are in no way perfect. I'll fully admit that. But evil, they are not. The Ori are definitely the "bad guys" of this story. No doubt in my mind.:)

JUNIOR
March 16th, 2006, 09:51 PM
1. Apart from heresay stories, no evidence suggests that this was an accident. In fact, the Wraith have so much relation to Ancient technology, and even share the same written language (virtually identical), so it's easy to connect the dots and see the Ancients made the Wraith on purpose.


Not neccesarily. The story is that the Iratus bug attacked humans and became the wraith. The humans were created by the Ancients and would have had contact with them. The only technology and language around was that of the Ancients. So it is no surprise that in taking over and assimilating new technology and language into their new society it would be Ancient.


Actually thenimf is right, apart from here say in the series mainly by Dr. Beckett, and McKay there’s no solid proof that the Iratus bug attacked humans and evolved when coming in contact with human DNA. For all we know the Ancients could have been experimenting with these bugs in order to try and make themselves better a species, but the people (Lanteans) that they experimented on turned into Wraith and started to procreate their lineage (this is also a theory I’ve heard). Either one of you could be totally right, but as of now it hasn’t been explained with solid enough proof to be accepted as fact (Ancient writings, a Wraith or Ascended/mortal Ancient explaining how the Wraith came to be, etc.) just some theories, and speculation



2. I find it pretty evil to cause chaos on purpose. You could kill someone everyday and they would never remember... crap like that.


How is it causing chaos on purpose? The story is that they created the device to give themselves more time to find a cure. Thats all it does. At first I agreed with you that it caused chaos but now on reflection I rescind that because it doesn't. Those caguht in the loop as a side effect dont even know they are, only the people that operate the device remain unchanged. If everyone that was affected remembered and kept looping THAT would be chaos, but there is no evidence that the Ancients used it in such a manner or that it can even be used in any harmful way.


IMO I don’t find the machine evil at all it’s a scientific marvel. I mean it could be used for evil (trap the Ancient’s enemies in a time loop), but that’s not what it was for (at least not as far as the translations explain). Daniel translated text that explained how the Ancients were trying to go back in time in order to stop the plague problem. They ultimately couldn’t make the device work at that time (they created a time looping machine instead of time travel) so they gave up. There was no mention in the writings that Daniel, Jack, and Teal’c translated that showed that there was even any life on the other planets that were in the loop (they could have all been wiped out by the plague at that time) so it could have been just the Ancients that were developing and testing the device that were enveloped in the time loop.



3. It is only theorized that device was used to restore all life in the galaxy... and if the Ancients covered up the Wraith I doubt they'd share the truth about this, considering it's a far more serious threat.


No the device does nothing to restore life in the galaxy and although that is what most people believe and assume it is incorrect. Go back and rewatch the explanation of the device. it generates an energy way that breaks down all matter to its basic elements so that the life cycle can be restarted. there is no mention that the Dakaran device is the device that does the retarting and it is ludicrous to think that it is. It is an unfocused energy wave, it can not restart the diverse and specific ecologies of millions of planets, the ancients would have had to have other devices that they used on each planet to restart the life. The Dakaran device is just a reset button, thats all it was meant to be and the Ancients didnt try to obscure that fact. So nothing insidiuous there


You two are both somewhat wrong; it was explained in Threads by Anubis himself that the weapon was originally made to create life in the MW after the Plague hit, although obviously it could be used to as spg_1983 said, “break down all matter to its basic elements so that the life cycle can be restarted” Anubis said it was just used to create life he didn’t explain how. Also spg_1983, when you said that “the Ancients would have had to have other devices that they used on each planet to restart the life.” You forgot to say IMO, or my theory is, because this is certainly not fact. Early in the series Sam theorized that a lot of SG planets were suitable for life that was human form or close to human form so far this has been the case so IMO the Ancients probably wouldn’t have needed to “restart the diverse and specific ecologies of millions of planets” with a device on each planet in order to successfully recreate life, but then again you could be right about this. Also Ba’al Via Nerus learned how to activate all of the SG’s at once to use the machine IMO the Ancient could have done the same and spread life using the machine after the plague.



4. Regardless of what it does to them, it is a weapon that interferes with the way they go about their business and in that sense it is capable of evil.


Is a jail cell for a violent criminal evil because it prevents them from going about their business? Same thing.


I have to somewhat agree with thenimf on this one because so far Daniel has speculated from the translations that he deciphered in Arthur’s Mantel that the “Blood Stone” more than likely doesn’t kill, but just neutralizes the Ascended beings. Kvasir stated in Camelot (not a direct quote) “that he collected enough data from Merlin’s phase shifting device to surmise that the Shan grail was an energy transfer device much like a ZPM except that the energy is channeled not from sub-space into ordinary space time, but into the dimension occupied by ascended beings. Kvasir then goes onto say that the energy is a form of interference like two standing waves cancelling each other out” so my guess is that it doesn’t hurt them it just stops them from using their powers in or interacting with our dimension. Kinda like those bugs from Sight Unseen (Season six) – there you see them, now you don’t



6. Note that the Ancients did some time travelling and were aware that the Goa'uld would take over the galaxy one day, yet put no measures in place to prevent it. Also, they did nothing when they went back to Earth and Ra came over.


No we have evidence that ONE ancient did some time traveling, Janus. And the other Ancients were really pissed off when they found out that Weir came back in time with the device because they are really strict about not screwing with the time line. janus broke the rule on the one planet, possibly as an experiment, but we have absolutely no evidence that he did it anywhere else, or any other Ancients ever did it either, but based on the other Ancients reactions in "Before I Sleep" It is inceribly unlikely they did. When the Ancients returned from Atlantis they were few in number and would have arrived in Antartica. The would not have known of Ra if he was there yet, though it is unlikely since then there would have been two active gates with DHD's on the planet that would have caused problems. At the point that they returned the Ancient empire would have already disappeared so they would have been alone, the rest of their kind already Ascended. What was a hand ful of them supposed to do about the Goa'uld? Their kind had moved on, it was no longer their concern, the galaxy was a different place, so they went to join their race by Ascending. Perhaps its a bit apathetic towards the people left behind to suffer under the goa'uld, but certainly not evil.


Okay, we are only aware that one Ancient actually traveled in time, now whether or not this was Janus is still a mystery. It wasn’t mention anywhere to my knowledge that Janus was the one that actually took the plunge back and forth in time in Before I Sleep or It’s Good to be King. It’s only been said that he invented the time travel machine and/or the design that was used in both episodes. Now it would be a fair assumption that this was Janus that was the Ancient who went forward in time in It’s Good to be King, but so far there has not been any absolute solid proof to back it up. The other Ancients (Before I Sleep) were pissed off because he created the time machine in the first place, which enabled Weir to travel back in time and hence, possibly effecting the set history as they knew it. This is the reason they didn't just go back in time and stop the Goa'uld, and Replicators, etc. because it could have just turned into a worse situation for the MW galaxy and the universe as a whole. Also in Camelot Daniel and Sam was talking about the possibility that Merlin may have had access to time travel technology himself, which may come into play in Season 10 ("Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow" (working title)).

thenimf
March 16th, 2006, 10:49 PM
Kudos JUNIOR :)

JanusAncient
March 16th, 2006, 11:11 PM
Personally i think there has been enough evidence throughout both SG1 and SGA to concluded that they are not evil. A couple off the top of my head

- They were in that Alliance, one member was the Asgard. They don't strike me as the type of conspire with evil races

The Ancients are a very advanced race, if they came in and said "hey we are responsible for your creation, because of us you are alive," the Asgard, and any younger race would do whatever they said, without question, like Daniel and the rest of Sg-1 are currently doing!


- In Aurora, they have shown they want to destroy they Wraith.

Actually, the only thing that the Ancients have shown us, is that they are willing to destroy anyone they consider a threat to their well-being.


- Contact with ascended beings. They all seem pretty goodie goodie to me, and when know that ascesion doesn't automatically make you a good person.

They don't really seem anything actually, good or evil, they allow destruction to take place with no regard for life beneath.


- The Ancient in Antartica healed jack and from what i understand, sacrificed herself.

In the season ten premiere Adria heals her mother Vala, even with Daniel near by intent on shooting her with a Zat.


Sure they may have made mistakes and their technology may not have been used for it's intended purpose but that in no way makes them the bad guys.

This is of course true. The Ori believe that what they are doing is for the salvation of all life in the universe, and if they are telling the truth, the Ancients agenda is simply bigger than us.

TjomasC
March 17th, 2006, 04:06 AM
I think there's some good points here.

One thing worth noting is that no-ones perfect. There was some poem I had to learn for my GCSE's that basically was about one guy who seemed pretty good, but did some pretty nasty things. Maybe the Anchients where like that. Although comapred to the Ori, they're tame... I mean, they havn't actually gone on a killing rampage yet.

And I'm not sure if that time loop machine was actually meant to loop. If I remember correctly, I think it was meant to reverse time to a point where those working on the cure could solve the problem. It kept looping, and so failed to help them. Although I could be completely wrong.

I also don't think we know as much as the people in Atlantis do about the wraith... I have a feeling the Ancients wrote down exactly what happened, and that they wouldn't have messed with their genetics. They're all against that, they prefer to ascend the difficult way. As for language, anyone who was turned into a wraith would still remember the customs and language from when they where Ancient.

As for all the gate realted stuff, how where the Ancients meant to:

Realise something like the Gou'uld would evolve
Get rid of the many, many gates that existed when they did, bearing in mind that there wearn't that many left after Atlantis fell


Thats just my view. Sorry for repeating anything other people have said.

*Crash*
March 17th, 2006, 05:20 AM
Well i think the "Orii" might actually believe what they are doing is right.

We only know a fraction of the Ancient and Orii past, and that is what has been written/recorded.

The History we know has always been portrayed by the victors/ones in charge. (Or in stargate sence "areas" such as our galaxy)

Your not gonna write bad stuff about yourself if their is an opposing force to choose round the corner

MarshAngel
March 17th, 2006, 06:53 AM
Well i think the "Orii" might actually believe what they are doing is right.

So did the Crusaders and their Jihad minded counterparts, so did Hitler, European Roman, and Arabic enslavers, George W. etc. What you believe about yourself is meaningless in the face of the judgment of others, in this case us. And since they're trying to kill us for not accepting their brand of mental enslavement, I'm not inclined to give them the respect of having good intentions on their side.


We only know a fraction of the Ancient and Orii past, and that is what has been written/recorded.

The History we know has always been portrayed by the victors/ones in charge. (Or in stargate sence "areas" such as our galaxy)

Your not gonna write bad stuff about yourself if their is an opposing force to choose round the corner

All true but we're going to believe in that which works for our benefit. So far we've used Ancient technology to:

Travel to other worlds to gain technology to defeat the goa'uld
Defend our planet against Anubis
The knowledge they left behind helped us make allies of the Asgard, save Sam & Team from death by Solar radiation among other things.
Defeat the replicators and help the Asgard
Hold back the Wraith from Atlantis

and more I can't recall right now

The Ancient score card:

One ancient has saved our ass from the Wraith at least once. Chaya.

One ancient has ascended a friend and important person in the battles we've faced (Daniel), thus saving him from death, twice. Oma

The same ancient ascended an entire population rather than let them die

One more ancient helped us formulate a cure for a deadly disease thus sacrificing enlightenment and eternal life. Orlin

The same ancient, mistakenly helped a world fight against an enemy.

One Ancient came back to build a weapon to help fight a battle we are about to face. Merlin

Two? ascended beings, Oma & Shifu, helped us understand that searching fir Goa'uld knowledge was a mistake we could avoid.

One, before he ascended, wrote a prophecy (It's good to be King) that helped us prepare for the goa'uld.

One, before he ascended, made sure we'd be able to visit and make use of Atlantis without dying a horrible death by drowning. Janus


The Ori Score Card:

They were annoying enough to compel the ancients to leave for a galaxy far far away.

Upon discovering we exist, their followers immediately burned Vala to death

The Ori killed Harrid and Sallis for heresey

The Ori destroyed at least one, possibly two occupied planets to create their Supergate

The Ori impregnated Vala against her will

The Ori have built an army to kill us all

The Ori have unleased plagues on several worlds: disease, flesh eating bugs, zombies, and all kill indiscriminately.

The Ori's only available options are worship or die and worship and die.

The scorecard is definitely on the side of the Ancients. It doesn't matter what part they've played in their issues with the Ori because it's the Ori who are out to kill us. If the Ancients have some elaborate plan to play us for their benefit, we have an awful lot of freedom doing so which places them well ahead of the Ori. We can't judge them on the theory that they "might" be evil especially when faced with someone inarguably so.

We deal with what we can see when we can see it. We can be paranoid about the ones not trying to kill us right now later.

spg_1983
March 17th, 2006, 11:57 AM
Actually thenimf is right, apart from here say in the series mainly by Dr. Beckett, and McKay there’s no solid proof that the Iratus bug attacked humans and evolved when coming in contact with human DNA. For all we know the Ancients could have been experimenting with these bugs in order to try and make themselves better a species, but the people (Lanteans) that they experimented on turned into Wraith and started to procreate their lineage (this is also a theory I’ve heard). Either one of you could be totally right, but as of now it hasn’t been explained with solid enough proof to be accepted as fact (Ancient writings, a Wraith or Ascended/mortal Ancient explaining how the Wraith came to be, etc.) just some theories, and speculation You are right that we don't have the full story because we werent there. However based on what we do know from SG-1 about the Ancients and what has been explained by the characters in Atlantis there is no contradictory evidence to Becketts theory and there is nothing to suggest that the Ancients intentionally created the Wraith or the was any malicious intent in their creation. We don't have true conclusive evidence either way, but we do have Becketts theory that it was accidental and lacking contradictory evidence there is no reason to assume the Ancients were evil. My point is there is little in the evidence either way, and Becketts theory (a much more informed person about the issue) explains the creation of the wraith. There is no evidence as of yet to contradict him. When such evidence comes along I will happily concede the point, but we can not just assume he is wrong with out any evidence because we want the Ancients to be evil.





You two are both somewhat wrong; it was explained in Threads by Anubis himself that the weapon was originally made to create life in the MW after the Plague hit, although obviously it could be used to as spg_1983 said, “break down all matter to its basic elements so that the life cycle can be restarted” Anubis said it was just used to create life he didn’t explain how. Also spg_1983, when you said that “the Ancients would have had to have other devices that they used on each planet to restart the life.” You forgot to say IMO, or my theory is, because this is certainly not fact. Early in the series Sam theorized that a lot of SG planets were suitable for life that was human form or close to human form so far this has been the case so IMO the Ancients probably wouldn’t have needed to “restart the diverse and specific ecologies of millions of planets” with a device on each planet in order to successfully recreate life, but then again you could be right about this. Also Ba’al Via Nerus learned how to activate all of the SG’s at once to use the machine IMO the Ancient could have done the same and spread life using the machine after the plague.It was never explained that the device its self, and it is a "device" not a "weapon", had any specific purpose other than as a reset button. The devoce was part of the PROCCESS of recreating life in the galaxy, but the explanations that were given that suggest the device itself recreated life were hurried assumptions. I don't need to say "in my opinion" or "my theory" because it is neither. Im also not saying it is a fact because it has never been expressly said. But it is plain common sense. Carter explained that the device worked by broadcasting an energy wave that disabled the molecular bonds of matter. It was in this way they were able to focus the device to emit the specific energy type to destroy the replicators. The wave itself is just that, a undirected, broad spectrum energy wave that destroys matter. The device works galactically by dialing all stargates at once and hitting all planets at once. That means that the energy wave passes through the gate to all the planets connected in the exact same manner everywhere. The wave is not controlled after being released. So if the wave did have some magic way of hanging around after spreading across the individual planets and bringing the disassembled elements that are then left back together to start the rudimentary proccesses to lead to greter evolution on each planet, then each planet would be exactly the same. The exact same species of trees, animals, plants, and aliens. however that is not the case. yes the planets are quite similar, although this was explained by teal'c that the Goa'uld terraformed most stargate planets to their preferences, not the Ancients. But there are still many many differences and different races we have encountered.

Now we have come across Ancient devices that can creat and modify life on a smaller scale. The Talchak device that Anubis used to bring his Kull warriors to life, and the genetic modification device we have encountered twice. So taking into acount the existance of Ancient devices that deal with the creation of life and simple common sense and logic in thinking about the Dakaran device and how it works, it is not my opinion, or a theory, but common sense. Im not saying it is a fact because it hasnt been explicitily stated and TPTB have decided many times to make up completely illogical and ridiculous answers to questions like this in the past and they could very well decide to clarify at some point that the Dakaran device does in fact create life as it destroys it, but that woul be the height of idiocy and will respond that if the decide to take such a course.



I have to somewhat agree with thenimf on this one because so far Daniel has speculated from the translations that he deciphered in Arthur’s Mantel that the “Blood Stone” more than likely doesn’t kill, but just neutralizes the Ascended beings. Kvasir stated in Camelot (not a direct quote) “that he collected enough data from Merlin’s phase shifting device to surmise that the Shan grail was an energy transfer device much like a ZPM except that the energy is channeled not from sub-space into ordinary space time, but into the dimension occupied by ascended beings. Kvasir then goes onto say that the energy is a form of interference like two standing waves cancelling each other out” so my guess is that it doesn’t hurt them it just stops them from using their powers in or interacting with our dimension. Kinda like those bugs from Sight Unseen (Season six) – there you see them, now you don’tThat is exactly like I was saying, the device does not kill them, it neutralizes them, like Oma did with Anubis. That is what I am saying, not thenimf.


Okay, we are only aware that one Ancient actually traveled in time, now whether or not this was Janus is still a mystery. It wasn’t mention anywhere to my knowledge that Janus was the one that actually took the plunge back and forth in time in Before I Sleep or It’s Good to be King. It’s only been said that he invented the time travel machine and/or the design that was used in both episodes. Now it would be a fair assumption that this was Janus that was the Ancient who went forward in time in It’s Good to be King, but so far there has not been any absolute solid proof to back it up. The other Ancients (Before I Sleep) were pissed off because he created the time machine in the first place, which enabled Weir to travel back in time and hence, possibly effecting the set history as they knew it. This is the reason they didn't just go back in time and stop the Goa'uld, and Replicators, etc. because it could have just turned into a worse situation for the MW galaxy and the universe as a whole. Also in Camelot Daniel and Sam was talking about the possibility that Merlin may have had access to time travel technology himself, which may come into play in Season 10 ("Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow" (working title)).
Ok you are right we don't know it was Janus that used the time machin in "Its Good to Be King" however Janus was an Atlantian and built his original device in Atlantis which Weir used to go back in time. The Atlantian council knew nothing about it so they knew nothing about the future, Janus built it in secret. The deice in "Its Good to Be King" was the same as the one Weir used, so it is likely either janus built it, or someone else did on his designs, but it had to have been after he returned to MW. So at least up until that point the Ancients had no idea what the future held, and were opposed to the idea of knowing and changing it.

spg_1983
March 17th, 2006, 11:58 AM
Actually thenimf is right, apart from here say in the series mainly by Dr. Beckett, and McKay there’s no solid proof that the Iratus bug attacked humans and evolved when coming in contact with human DNA. For all we know the Ancients could have been experimenting with these bugs in order to try and make themselves better a species, but the people (Lanteans) that they experimented on turned into Wraith and started to procreate their lineage (this is also a theory I’ve heard). Either one of you could be totally right, but as of now it hasn’t been explained with solid enough proof to be accepted as fact (Ancient writings, a Wraith or Ascended/mortal Ancient explaining how the Wraith came to be, etc.) just some theories, and speculation You are right that we don't have the full story because we werent there. However based on what we do know from SG-1 about the Ancients and what has been explained by the characters in Atlantis there is no contradictory evidence to Becketts theory and there is nothing to suggest that the Ancients intentionally created the Wraith or the was any malicious intent in their creation. We don't have true conclusive evidence either way, but we do have Becketts theory that it was accidental and lacking contradictory evidence there is no reason to assume the Ancients were evil. My point is there is little in the evidence either way, and Becketts theory (a much more informed person about the issue) explains the creation of the wraith. There is no evidence as of yet to contradict him. When such evidence comes along I will happily concede the point, but we can not just assume he is wrong with out any evidence because we want the Ancients to be evil.





You two are both somewhat wrong; it was explained in Threads by Anubis himself that the weapon was originally made to create life in the MW after the Plague hit, although obviously it could be used to as spg_1983 said, “break down all matter to its basic elements so that the life cycle can be restarted” Anubis said it was just used to create life he didn’t explain how. Also spg_1983, when you said that “the Ancients would have had to have other devices that they used on each planet to restart the life.” You forgot to say IMO, or my theory is, because this is certainly not fact. Early in the series Sam theorized that a lot of SG planets were suitable for life that was human form or close to human form so far this has been the case so IMO the Ancients probably wouldn’t have needed to “restart the diverse and specific ecologies of millions of planets” with a device on each planet in order to successfully recreate life, but then again you could be right about this. Also Ba’al Via Nerus learned how to activate all of the SG’s at once to use the machine IMO the Ancient could have done the same and spread life using the machine after the plague.It was never explained that the device its self, and it is a "device" not a "weapon", had any specific purpose other than as a reset button. The devoce was part of the PROCCESS of recreating life in the galaxy, but the explanations that were given that suggest the device itself recreated life were hurried assumptions. I don't need to say "in my opinion" or "my theory" because it is neither. Im also not saying it is a fact because it has never been expressly said. But it is plain common sense. Carter explained that the device worked by broadcasting an energy wave that disabled the molecular bonds of matter. It was in this way they were able to focus the device to emit the specific energy type to destroy the replicators. The wave itself is just that, a undirected, broad spectrum energy wave that destroys matter. The device works galactically by dialing all stargates at once and hitting all planets at once. That means that the energy wave passes through the gate to all the planets connected in the exact same manner everywhere. The wave is not controlled after being released. So if the wave did have some magic way of hanging around after spreading across the individual planets and bringing the disassembled elements that are then left back together to start the rudimentary proccesses to lead to greter evolution on each planet, then each planet would be exactly the same. The exact same species of trees, animals, plants, and aliens. however that is not the case. yes the planets are quite similar, although this was explained by teal'c that the Goa'uld terraformed most stargate planets to their preferences, not the Ancients. But there are still many many differences and different races we have encountered.

Now we have come across Ancient devices that can creat and modify life on a smaller scale. The Talchak device that Anubis used to bring his Kull warriors to life, and the genetic modification device we have encountered twice. So taking into acount the existance of Ancient devices that deal with the creation of life and simple common sense and logic in thinking about the Dakaran device and how it works, it is not my opinion, or a theory, but common sense. Im not saying it is a fact because it hasnt been explicitily stated and TPTB have decided many times to make up completely illogical and ridiculous answers to questions like this in the past and they could very well decide to clarify at some point that the Dakaran device does in fact create life as it destroys it, but that woul be the height of idiocy and will respond that if the decide to take such a course.



I have to somewhat agree with thenimf on this one because so far Daniel has speculated from the translations that he deciphered in Arthur’s Mantel that the “Blood Stone” more than likely doesn’t kill, but just neutralizes the Ascended beings. Kvasir stated in Camelot (not a direct quote) “that he collected enough data from Merlin’s phase shifting device to surmise that the Shan grail was an energy transfer device much like a ZPM except that the energy is channeled not from sub-space into ordinary space time, but into the dimension occupied by ascended beings. Kvasir then goes onto say that the energy is a form of interference like two standing waves cancelling each other out” so my guess is that it doesn’t hurt them it just stops them from using their powers in or interacting with our dimension. Kinda like those bugs from Sight Unseen (Season six) – there you see them, now you don’tThat is exactly like I was saying, the device does not kill them, it neutralizes them, like Oma did with Anubis. That is what I am saying, not thenimf.


Okay, we are only aware that one Ancient actually traveled in time, now whether or not this was Janus is still a mystery. It wasn’t mention anywhere to my knowledge that Janus was the one that actually took the plunge back and forth in time in Before I Sleep or It’s Good to be King. It’s only been said that he invented the time travel machine and/or the design that was used in both episodes. Now it would be a fair assumption that this was Janus that was the Ancient who went forward in time in It’s Good to be King, but so far there has not been any absolute solid proof to back it up. The other Ancients (Before I Sleep) were pissed off because he created the time machine in the first place, which enabled Weir to travel back in time and hence, possibly effecting the set history as they knew it. This is the reason they didn't just go back in time and stop the Goa'uld, and Replicators, etc. because it could have just turned into a worse situation for the MW galaxy and the universe as a whole. Also in Camelot Daniel and Sam was talking about the possibility that Merlin may have had access to time travel technology himself, which may come into play in Season 10 ("Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow" (working title)).
Ok you are right we don't know it was Janus that used the time machin in "Its Good to Be King" however Janus was an Atlantian and built his original device in Atlantis which Weir used to go back in time. The Atlantian council knew nothing about it so they knew nothing about the future, Janus built it in secret. The deice in "Its Good to Be King" was the same as the one Weir used, so it is likely either janus built it, or someone else did on his designs, but it had to have been after he returned to MW. So at least up until that point the Ancients had no idea what the future held, and were opposed to the idea of knowing and changing it.

Bragi
March 17th, 2006, 04:14 PM
I'm sorry Miss Bragi, I'll structure arguments in future that account for your intellect. Go **** yourself.

Ad hominem.

And bad form, I might add.

ZPM_Plant
March 17th, 2006, 06:34 PM
I might go as far to say that the Dakara device created the Gou'ld. Or the Ancients created the Gou'ld by accident while trying to solve the plague.

They do have the healing properties of the MW Ancients.

Consequences matter. Evil? No. In some cases irresponsible. Maybe.

spg_1983
March 17th, 2006, 06:51 PM
Ad hominem.

And bad form, I might add.
Yeah I forgot to respond to that myself, it was really bad form.

the fifth man
March 17th, 2006, 07:14 PM
Yeah I forgot to respond to that myself, it was really bad form.

Indeed!:D

JUNIOR
March 18th, 2006, 06:35 PM
It was never explained that the device its self, and it is a "device" not a "weapon", had any specific purpose other than as a reset button. The devoce was part of the PROCCESS of recreating life in the galaxy, but the explanations that were given that suggest the device itself recreated life were hurried assumptions. I don't need to say "in my opinion" or "my theory" because it is neither. Im also not saying it is a fact because it has never been expressly said. But it is plain common sense. Carter explained that the device worked by broadcasting an energy wave that disabled the molecular bonds of matter. It was in this way they were able to focus the device to emit the specific energy type to destroy the replicators. The wave itself is just that, a undirected, broad spectrum energy wave that destroys matter. The device works galactically by dialing all stargates at once and hitting all planets at once. That means that the energy wave passes through the gate to all the planets connected in the exact same manner everywhere. The wave is not controlled after being released. So if the wave did have some magic way of hanging around after spreading across the individual planets and bringing the disassembled elements that are then left back together to start the rudimentary proccesses to lead to greter evolution on each planet, then each planet would be exactly the same. The exact same species of trees, animals, plants, and aliens. however that is not the case. yes the planets are quite similar, although this was explained by teal'c that the Goa'uld terraformed most stargate planets to their preferences, not the Ancients. But there are still many many differences and different races we have encountered.

Good point, although IMO it’s still just an opinion/theory because a person can just as easily say that the weapon brings life spawning materials together in order to create life with the correct calibration because it has not been explained how the weapon actually works (in regards to creating life) and its SciFi doesn’t have to follow complete logic.


That is exactly like I was saying, the device does not kill them, it neutralizes them, like Oma did with Anubis. That is what I am saying, not thenimf.

My fault you were total right on this point.

JanusAncient
March 18th, 2006, 07:44 PM
So did the Crusaders and their Jihad minded counterparts, so did Hitler, European Roman, and Arabic enslavers, George W. etc. What you believe about yourself is meaningless in the face of the judgment of others, in this case us. And since they're trying to kill us for not accepting their brand of mental enslavement, I'm not inclined to give them the respect of having good intentions on their side.

This is your failing, just because the Ori are willing to kill, doesn't make them wrong by any means, it could just simply mean that they, contrary to us, actually see the Ancients bigger picture, and are willing to do whatever it takes to prevent them from accomplishing it.


All true but we're going to believe in that which works for our benefit. So far we've used Ancient technology to:

Travel to other worlds to gain technology to defeat the goa'uld
Defend our planet against Anubis
The knowledge they left behind helped us make allies of the Asgard, save Sam & Team from death by Solar radiation among other things.
Defeat the replicators and help the Asgard
Hold back the Wraith from Atlantis

and more I can't recall right now

So what, they had incredible technology, and vast knowledge, thus they are benevolent, come on, you yourself have to find fault with this statement.


The Ancient score card:

One ancient has saved our ass from the Wraith at least once. Chaya.

Chaya saved that one Atlantis team, only because she could, if it had been on any other planet, nothing! And, the fact that her people were also in danger, had to factor in, because once the Wraith finished with them, they would have alerted the other Wraith to the planets populace.


One ancient has ascended a friend and important person in the battles we've faced (Daniel), thus saving him from death, twice. Oma

The same ancient ascended an entire population rather than let them die

Wrong, Daniel didn't ascend the second time, now she did save him, but he was given the choice between ascension and death, he chose an alternate course, to return and continue the fight. Oma, helped the people of Abydos, only because Anubis was her mistake, no other reason, don't believe that it was just out of the kindness of her heart.


One more ancient helped us formulate a cure for a deadly disease thus sacrificing enlightenment and eternal life. Orlin

The same ancient, mistakenly helped a world fight against an enemy.

Agreed! But, speculation still exist, on whether he will, or won't be able to return to his state as an ascended being. The rest of the Ancients killed off the entire race, when they could have just destroyed the weapon, erased some memories, found another way, as Daniel is always saying, that was their solution.


One Ancient came back to build a weapon to help fight a battle we are about to face. Merlin

More precisely to help prevent from gaining the necessary power, to destroy his race, don't think it was to save the people of the Milky Way, the Ancients were more than ready to let Anubis destroy everything, don't go tricking yourself.


Two? ascended beings, Oma & Shifu, helped us understand that searching fir Goa'uld knowledge was a mistake we could avoid.

Yes, searching for knowledge at all cost, is the downward course, no problem with Oma, great lady, and Shifu a fantastic kid, but this does not speak to the actions of the other Ancients.


One, before he ascended, wrote a prophecy (It's good to be King) that helped us prepare for the goa'uld.

No, this Ancient did exactly what he/she was supposed, after travelling forward in time, and realizing the part he/she/they played in this planets history, that's it.


One, before he ascended, made sure we'd be able to visit and make use of Atlantis without dying a horrible death by drowning. Janus

No again, Janus wanted to see if his time travel invention worked, and if Atlantis would survive, it had nothing to do with Dr. Weir, and the Atlantis expedition, that's why it was programmed to travel back in time, to when he was still in the city.



The Ori Score Card:

They were annoying enough to compel the ancients to leave for a galaxy far far away.

You know what's wrong with this statement, I think you were just tired.


Upon discovering we exist, their followers immediately burned Vala to death

The Ori killed Harrid and Sallis for heresey

The Ori destroyed at least one, possibly two occupied planets to create their Supergate

So, Oma killed a whole troop of Jaffa. Again so, Merlin's black killed at least on person we know of, who knows how many more, to cause such fear in that village.

Like I said, we know the Ancients destroyed at least one race of people, do you really think, if they were willing to do this as ascended beings, they didn't as humans.


The Ori impregnated Vala against her will

The Ori have built an army to kill us all

The Ori have unleased plagues on several worlds: disease, flesh eating bugs, zombies, and all kill indiscriminately.

The Ori's only available options are worship or die and worship and die.

The scorecard is definitely on the side of the Ancients. It doesn't matter what part they've played in their issues with the Ori because it's the Ori who are out to kill us. If the Ancients have some elaborate plan to play us for their benefit, we have an awful lot of freedom doing so which places them well ahead of the Ori. We can't judge them on the theory that they "might" be evil especially when faced with someone inarguably so.

We deal with what we can see when we can see it. We can be paranoid about the ones not trying to kill us right now later.

Unless later is too late! So did Merlin, is his creation of Arthur. What was the four race alliance formed to do, to protect against hostile races, the Ori deem us hostile because of the Ancients. Yes, the Ori have killed many, and will continue to do so unless stopped, but there are other humans in other galaxies, you reap what you sow. Worship and die, sounds about right, but isn't it better to have the knowledge of the universe for a short amount of time, as a Prior, than dying ignorantly by the billions. Unless later is far too late!

Kanten
March 19th, 2006, 02:38 AM
I myself really like the whole "who is the true evil" conflict going on between the Alterans and Ori, which is the primary reason I really, really, really hated Orlin's "never ascended anyone" claim in Fourth Horseman, which may very well have derailed a potentially interesting story arc before it even began.

The claim present with the path to enlightment idea with the Ori followers really, really could put a serious moral conflict at hand in fighting back against them. But if they really have never ascended any of their followers, it just really kills the potential there.

A couple more things for the Ancient scorecard:

They sat around willing to let Anubis, for all intents and purposes their creation, wipe out us and everybody in the Milky Way galaxy, basically for the sole purpose of dealing a punishment out to Oma, one of the very few among them who was willing to help us out.

They're basically doing nearly the same thing now sitting around letting the Ori kick our asses. If the Ori are really as bad as the Ancients claim they are to be, and with their apparent goal to wipe them out, I find it a little hard to believe they would let it go in the name of their ever-popular "free will" law.

Ignorance may be bliss, but it can also be nearly as, if not more evil than direct action.

In the back of my mind, I sorta think we're siding with the "devil you know" idea that we've seen a lot in the past. I have an odd feeling the Ancients won't seem nearly as friendly if SG-1 does find the Sangraal.

sppeters
March 19th, 2006, 11:22 AM
Well very compelling, In fact I would agree... to a point.

Personally it seems both sides are good/evil, after all in the spoiler for season 10 episode 1 it does say that:

1) Adria "KNOWS and BELIEVES all that the Ori do about ascension."
- so the ori probubly then do see the ancients as evil.

2) While we have been told that the ancients are passive, we also know that the ancients frown uppon interferance, and even try to provent it.
- the may have tried to destory the Ori for interfearing with our plain of existance.

3) Now I am not saying that they ascend their followers.
-In fact they probubly don't and so the Ori then DO lie to their followers.

4) We know that most races don't actually know about the ancients, as most planets are primative from gou'ald occupation for thousands of years.
- So how can the ancients drain power from those who don't even know about them?

So Basically:
The Ori DO drain power from their followers, and they create/advance Priors to spread their "good word". The Ori also use the Priors and punishment (being burned allive) to instill fear so that all would believe in them. However it is because of this that the ancients probubly tried to stop/destory them originally. Which caused retaliation, and brings us to the current crusade.

Platschu
March 19th, 2006, 01:54 PM
I have two teories about the Ancients.

1. Janus travelled to the future and he saw the that the non-ascended races made fantastic peaceful world. So he travelled back in time and he told everthing to the Alterrans. The Ancients hasn't made anything in the history and only watched the new races, because they are knowing, that we will be able to find our destiny.

2. If an Ancient ascend than all of her / his alternate version will ascend at the same time, so as a pure energy, they can see all universe.

* * *

Two more question:

1.If the Ori is the fire, the Alterrans are the light, than Anubis was a third type of ascension (black clous)? Or the Goa'uld can be so ascend?

2. Some Ancient technology (for example 5x20 Sentinel and 8x17 Reckoning II) is very similar to the Wraith, because they take lifeenergy. Why?

thenimf
March 19th, 2006, 02:41 PM
Ad hominem.

And bad form, I might add.

Right, so you come into a thread and arrogantly proclaim a victor without contributing any useful discussion and then go off and tag me for having bad form? Wake up *****. :ronan:

MarshAngel
March 19th, 2006, 02:53 PM
This is your failing, just because the Ori are willing to kill, doesn't make them wrong by any means,

Any situation which allows for the Ori to kill us on a massive scale to further some glorious end is simply a matter of the ends justifying the means; a heading under which you can excuse all manner of evils whether it be rape torture or genocide. Convenient for your cause but no less evil. For one thing, if killing us justifies some greater purpose, why not just wipe out the whole galaxy efficiently? Why bother offering conversion, turning people into zombies, engineering bugs, and burning your own priors? It would make that much more sense to skip the speech and go about the business of extermination.


Chaya saved that one Atlantis team, only because she could,......

Wrong, Daniel didn't ascend the second time.....

Agreed! But, speculation still exist, on whether he will, or won't be able to return to his state as an ascended being.....

You seem to be missing the entire point of my post. It doesn't matter if ALL ancients are good or not. It doesn't even matter if ALL Ori are evil. The Ori have never done anything that benefits us in the slightest; not a single one of them. In fact, since the very moment they found out about us they've been trying to kill us. No matter how self serving anything the ancients may have done is, at least one of them has done something for us. And those things are the basis on which we have to judge them. The only basis.

The entire point of what I just said is one good deed by one ancient outweighs no good deeds by the Ori. If that was the only evidence by which I was forced to choose in whom to trust, I would have to go with the one good deed.

No matter what the truth turns out to be in the end, as it stands, the Ori are still the bad guys and the Ancients are still, given the evidence at hand, the ones most likely to help, or if you like, most likely not to kill us all. Not a single one of the ancients we've come across, ascended or not, has shown any inclination towards harming us or our entire galaxy.

Jumping to the conclusion that the Ancients are evil is like meeting five random Americans who, despite the questionable decisions of their leaders, are nice to you personally and try to help you out every now and then when they can without risking their lives, jobs, and everything they believe. Then you meet one dictator who represents an entire nation who immediately tries to shoot at you and then going hmm... maybe he had a good reason for shooting at me and killing my friends.


Unless later is too late! So did Merlin, is his creation of Arthur. What was the four race alliance formed to do, to protect against hostile races, the Ori deem us hostile because of the Ancients. Yes, the Ori have killed many, and will continue to do so unless stopped, but there are other humans in other galaxies, you reap what you sow.

There is absolutely no benefit to jumping to alternate explanations while ignoring the most obvious. When someone tries to kill you, you shoot back. You don't rationalize their decisions and try to find a reason why it might be OK that they're trying to kill you. If you're right you're dead, if you're wrong, you're still dead and it won't matter if you died by the hands of the "good" guys becuase you won't be around to make the judgement call.

We have no idea why the alliance was formed. It was never said that it was formed to protect against hostile races. In fact the closes thing to explanation came from Earnest's notebook:


"'I believe this room is some sort of meeting place, where four alien
races denoted by the symbols, and distinctive writing on the walls would gather, possible to share knowledge, or discuss relations, like a United Nations of the Stars. Catherine agrees.'"



Worship and die, sounds about right, but isn't it better to have the knowledge of the universe for a short amount of time, as a Prior, than dying ignorantly by the billions. Unless later is far too late!

Will all humans be made priors? Will the Ori give ALL humans the knowledge of the universe? If this is the case, why did Tomin, a man born in the presence of all that great knowledge spend so much of his life lame when the the "knowledge of the universe" could have served to save him all that? He was born into Origin, his parents were born into Origin... where is their universal knowledge?

Seriously, Worship or die and worship and die is acceptable to you? Seriously? :eek: Quite frankly, that scares me. I would never want to have those choices as my only option. I can die now, or waste my life as nothing more than a battery and die later. Yeah, I can see how that might make them the good guys. :rolleyes:

Furthermore, what would we be too late for? What do you suppose the evil plan of the Ancients is? It's hard to be late for a plan we can't even be sure exists, have no evidence for.

thenimf
March 19th, 2006, 02:57 PM
MarshAngel
Your score cards are contradictory... either list the bad things that the Alterrans and O'ri have done, or list the good thing. You can't do one and the other. Yes, it's the premise of this thread, but it gives no supporting basis to your point.

Also, if we're going to believe stuff that works in our benefit... wouldn't the truth about who is the real bad guy be a good start? It'd be pretty crap to wipe out the O'ri only to find that they were our only hope.

And heehee, grouping George W. with Arabic enslavers and Hitler.


spg_1983 and JUNIOR
My point on the Holy Grail is that it's bad for disrupting their normal way of doing this in the first place. It could be the equivalent of disrupting someone's spinal column. Sure, they're not dead... and they can go along with their daily lives... but they'll never be the same. And that can be used for as much evil as it is good.


Kanten
Yeah, Star Trek had a good thing going with making the Federation evil but they never really got into it... it'd be awesome for Stargate to go in this direction with the Alterrans because it'd completely change everything and yeah... :)


sppeters
Because the idea that they drain power from their followers is an idea given to us by Orlin we can't necessarily believe it's true. In fact, the way this "power" is drained from them isn't even clearly explained at any point. Maybe it's just a metaphor for the way the O'ri use their followers to invade and occupy territories while complying with the tyrranical Alterran rules that all ascended beings must follow?



The truth is, I don't really believe that the Alterrans are the enemy, however I do believe that enough evidence has come up on this show to suggest a very interesting direction that TPTB could go in. Sure, there are contradictory points for this argument, but so there are in the other direction. The writers are the real guys in charge of this plot, not canon evidence or our hypothesis on who would most likely do or say what at some point. TPTB have gone in directions in the show that have totally contradicted or messed up the show's canon, and the movies' for that matter - just look at Hathor.

So yeah, some good points on both sides... but please keep in mind that this thread is a collection of musing points in the show that could set-up the Alterrans to be evil, it in no way means that I'm proclaiming the Alterrans to be this way... just read the title of this thread "MIGHT be the bad guys". I never said that are, just that what I had to say is a distinct possibility... and in my opinion it is a damn interesting one that's far more entertaining than the current "ZOMG! Let's go look for Merlin's bling! How original is this plot, we're looking for another Ancient weapon to defeat an incredible enemy against immeasurable odds!!"

spg_1983
March 19th, 2006, 03:04 PM
spg_1983 and JUNIOR
My point on the Holy Grail is that it's bad for disrupting their normal way of doing this in the first place. It could be the equivalent of disrupting someone's spinal column. Sure, they're not dead... and they can go along with their daily lives... but they'll never be the same. And that can be used for as much evil as it is good.

We don't know that at all. All we know is that it produces an effect that causes interference on their plane of existence and neutralizes their ability to affect our plane. We have no evidence that it actually causes them harm, and Daniel said that it doesn't actually kill them. So the implication seems to be that it works like a putting a prisoner in a jail cell. You don't kill them but neutralize their ability to cause harm.

creed462
March 19th, 2006, 03:13 PM
Look what Orlin did he didn't just give up his asended life, he gave up his Idenity to save us.

thenimf
March 19th, 2006, 03:13 PM
We don't know that at all. All we know is that it produces an effect that causes interference on their plane of existence and neutralizes their ability to affect our plane. We have no evidence that it actually causes them harm, and Daniel said that it doesn't actually kill them. So the implication seems to be that it works like a putting a prisoner in a jail cell. You don't kill them but neutralize their ability to cause harm.

Yeah dude, I get that. What I'm saying is that that's not a very nice thing to do to someone in regardless of what it does to them. For example, the O'ri view themselves to be celestial (get it?) parents of their followers... if this is the case then neutralizing their ability to interract with our plane is like child support taking away someone's kids. If it stops you from doing what you want to do then it can be misused, regardless of the level on which the damage is done. Sure the O'ri may not be harmed at all... but they will be sad, and making people sad is not nice -> evil.

spg_1983
March 19th, 2006, 03:34 PM
Yeah dude, I get that. What I'm saying is that that's not a very nice thing to do to someone in regardless of what it does to them. For example, the O'ri view themselves to be celestial (get it?) parents of their followers... if this is the case then neutralizing their ability to interract with our plane is like child support taking away someone's kids. If it stops you from doing what you want to do then it can be misused, regardless of the level on which the damage is done. Sure the O'ri may not be harmed at all... but they will be sad, and making people sad is not nice -> evil.
What are you talking about? The Ori advocate violence and killing, and leech energy off of their followers. It is not like taking good parents away from their children, it is like taking parents that are murderers and beat their children for fun away from the kids. It is like putting a murder in jail. Unless you are saying that we shouldnt do that and people should be allowed to do what they want? Because that really seems to be what you are saying.

thenimf
March 19th, 2006, 03:42 PM
What are you talking about? The Ori advocate violence and killing, and leech energy off of their followers. It is not like taking good parents away from their children, it is like taking parents that are murderers and beat their children for fun away from the kids. It is like putting a murder in jail. Unless you are saying that we shouldnt do that and people should be allowed to do what they want? Because that really seems to be what you are saying.

Umm.. calm down? I'm not saying that it is like putting good parents in jail at all. You're completely missing my point. What I'm saying is that from a unbiased ethical view we have no right to tell them what they can and can't do. Forcing them into any position wherein they can no longer go about their normal activity is wrong. Even if it means our death. (hmm... this is probably somewhat how the Ascendants think actually).

MarshAngel
March 19th, 2006, 04:00 PM
A couple more things for the Ancient scorecard:

They sat around willing to let Anubis, for all intents and purposes their creation, wipe out us and everybody in the Milky Way galaxy, basically for the sole purpose of dealing a punishment out to Oma, one of the very few among them who was willing to help us out.

First the scorecard I wrote deals only with situations in which the SG team had direct experience with an individual ancient or their work. Anything else done by the ancients as whole I chose not to mention because we did not deal with those situations and any judgement we make is iffy at best and complicated just like judging the actions of an entire nation as opposed to the actions of one or two individuals. And every decision has its pros and cons. Oma screwed up. Had she just followed the rules....

In regards to Anubis, for the ancients to "permit" something it implies that they have rule and that they should have it over lower planes of existence. They don't and they shouldn't. They are not our gods, our judges, or for that matter, our best buds.

Anubis, just like all evil in the galaxy, is of the galaxy. They didn't create his evil, they didn't permit it to exist anymore than they permit our evils to exist. This is why what Oma does is questionable. The moment she ascended him she made herself partially responsible for what he did. It was an understandable mistake any indivual could have made but a mess all the same. What the ancients then did was try to fix it, like humans, they screwed up proving they aren't perfect. He then partially descended and within the confines of the rules they set forth, he did what he would have done had he not been ascended in the first place, make a mess. The moment he wasn't in their sphere he wasn't their job. It was alway's Omas. That's the way I see it anyhow.


They're basically doing nearly the same thing now sitting around letting the Ori kick our asses. If the Ori are really as bad as the Ancients claim they are to be, and with their apparent goal to wipe them out, I find it a little hard to believe they would let it go in the name of their ever-popular "free will" law.

The ancients aren't so powerful as to "let" things happen in a universe they don't own or govern. The Ancients should fight the Ori on their plane of existence if they disagree with them, not ours. What the Ori's followers do is their own free will and as it happens on our plane, it's our problem. It sucks for us but they gave up their free will, ironically, somewhat willingly. On our plane of existence it comes down to human follower vs human non follower. What they should do is stop the Ori from interfering..... that would be fair according to their rules. But since that probably won't help us win this ridiculous situation however... deux es machina it is. :mckay:


Ignorance may be bliss, but it can also be nearly as, if not more evil than direct action.

Only if it's your responsibility in the first place. I suspect most ancients aren't watching over our lives. They shouldn't be. I think the way the ascended view their ascension is like moving away from your home to another distant country. The new occupants of your home should not be under your watch, influence, or interference no matter what ills befall them. In fact, none of them being involved at all, as per their rules, would have prevented more than a few problems.


In the back of my mind, I sorta think we're siding with the "devil you know"

In a way, yeah. Unless and until the Ancients prove themselves otherwise, they are the ones we should logically side with. If and when they try to kill us however.... well if they do, we're dead. And this is why I have a problem with the concept that they're the bad guys. If they wanted to harm us or use us, nothing is standing in their way. The Ori certainly wouldn't interfere; interference is their doctrine.

spg_1983
March 19th, 2006, 04:07 PM
Umm.. calm down? I'm not saying that it is like putting good parents in jail at all. You're completely missing my point. What I'm saying is that from a unbiased ethical view we have no right to tell them what they can and can't do. Forcing them into any position wherein they can no longer go about their normal activity is wrong. Even if it means our death. (hmm... this is probably somewhat how the Ascendants think actually).
So basically you are saying everyon should be allowed to run amok, killing indistriminatley, doing whatever suits their fancy, because to do other wise would be unethical? You are honestly saying it would be unethical to stop others from causing harm and death to us or others?

thenimf
March 19th, 2006, 04:15 PM
So basically you are saying everyon should be allowed to run amok, killing indistriminatley, doing whatever suits their fancy, because to do other wise would be unethical? You are honestly saying it would be unethical to stop others from causing harm and death to us or others?

Essentially, yes. But not to the extreme that you're giving. If the weapon trapped the O'ri in their own galaxy then that would be fine. Basically your assumption on how the weapon works rules out the O'ri from ever interracting with humans again. This is bad because they have followers who seem to live perfectly happy and rewarding lives in their own galaxy.

Your argument is based on the fact that the O'ri kill people, yet it's not their own followers that they kill. In fact, you don't seem to care about their followers at all, just your own ass (assuming that you're a Milky Way resident human). Sure it's the most likely position you would take for your survival, but it totally misses the big picture. If you were one of their followers and felt you hated the slave life and wanted to take down the O'ri... then you'd be in a position to fight them because they are a threat to you... however that's not the case here.

The most effective way to fight the O'ri would be to overpower them in a way that prevents their invasion altogether. It'd be cool if the Holy Grail acted as a kind of O'ri repellant. I'd definitely rather see that than something that'd trap/maim/poison/torture/whatever harm them.

Spell_Daemon
March 19th, 2006, 04:17 PM
In the Fourth Horseman Pt 2 the Prior that got disabled began preaching to Orlin when Orlin begun to speak. Naturally we all listened to Orlin and tuned out to what the Prior was saying... but he did say some very important stuff.

Now, I'm at work so I can't really look up his exact words... But he said that the O'ri were born from the rift (no doubt the moment the Alterrans split off) and that the Alterrans travelled the universe and spread death and destruction wherever they went, hence evil. What if the O'ri are destroying the Ancients in as a precautionary measure to protect themselves? Let's look at what the Ancients brought the Universe.


1. The Wraith - Space vamps with a bad attitude. Death and destruction.

2. The "groundhog day" device - A device that loops time. Pure chaos here, ignoring of course the theory that it was made to come up with a cure for the plague

3. The Dakara weapon - WMD of the great scale we've seen so far

4. The Holy Grail - Anti-ascendant WMD, ignoring of course that it was made by a rogue Ancient

5. The Asurans - a freaky spin off of a virus

6. The gate network - Ultimately allowing the Goa'uld to take control of the entire galaxy. I doubt their homeworld would've given them this capacity alone.

7. The gate warping device Anubis used


Now, my theory is that the Ancients like fighting... and so they go around picking fights and creating enemies. It's possible even that the Wraith and O'ri were the only enemies capable of overpowering them. *shrugs*

Either that or the Ancients just had so many misguided scientific ventures that went wrong. After all, one would have quite a few mistakes after a few million years of advancement. The O'ri seem like the kind of race that would've ascended through meditation and spiritual means.

1 - not their falt. They did not wish them to be made, they were an acidental biproduct of humans and bugs that the Ancients later faught.

2 - Hardly a divise that causes chaos. A simple time looping machine that WAS meant to give the people time to cure the plague.

3 - The device is not evil (and the ancients knew how to use it correctly) they also used it to create humans (the second evolution - us) after the plague.

4 - Haven't seen the epsiode yet, so I don't really understand it, but I would guess that it was created to stop people, that are like the Ori, to ascend.

5 - Haven't seen them yet, but I would guess that was an acident or there is an overwehlming reason why that was a mistake or needed to be done.

6 - Now that is the least evil, just because a race latter turned this idea to evil purposes does not mean it is an evil idea. I was created to allow instantaneous tavel (that is neither good nor evil) and allow people to live on other planets and therefore expand the places people can live.

7 - What device is that.

However, the Ori can not be totally evil, because they did ascended. They just have a different view point, and most of ideas that boarder on evil (in the grey area) and are not as good hearted about life, as the Ancients are. However, they may have been corrupted by the power of ascention and become as evil as they are.

thenimf
March 19th, 2006, 04:19 PM
1 - not their falt. They did not wish them to be made, they were an acidental biproduct of humans and bugs that the Ancients later faught.

2 - Hardly a divise that causes chaos. A simple time looping machine that WAS meant to give the people time to cure the plague.

3 - The device is not evil (and the ancients knew how to use it correctly) they also used it to create humans (the second evolution - us) after the plague.

4 - Haven't seen the epsiode yet, so I don't really understand it, but I would guess that it was created to stop people, that are like the Ori, to ascend.

5 - Haven't seen them yet, but I would guess that was an acident or there is an overwehlming reason why that was a mistake or needed to be done.

6 - Now that is the least evil, just because a race latter turned this idea to evil purposes does not mean it is an evil idea. I was created to allow instantaneous tavel (that is neither good nor evil) and allow people to live on other planets and therefore expand the places people can live.

7 - What device is that.

However, the Ori can not be totally evil, because they did ascended. They just have a different view point, and most of ideas that boarder on evil (in the grey area) and are not as good hearted about life, as the Ancients are. However, they may have been corrupted by the power of ascention and become as evil as they are.


Read this thread? Your rebuttals have already been rebutted.

spg_1983
March 19th, 2006, 04:26 PM
Essentially, yes. But not to the extreme that you're giving. If the weapon trapped the O'ri in their own galaxy then that would be fine. Basically your assumption on how the weapon works rules out the O'ri from ever interracting with humans again. This is bad because they have followers who seem to live perfectly happy and rewarding lives in their own galaxy.

Your argument is based on the fact that the O'ri kill people, yet it's not their own followers that they kill. In fact, you don't seem to care about their followers at all, just your own ass (assuming that you're a Milky Way resident human). Sure it's the most likely position you would take for your survival, but it totally misses the big picture. If you were one of their followers and felt you hated the slave life and wanted to take down the O'ri... then you'd be in a position to fight them because they are a threat to you... however that's not the case here.

The most effective way to fight the O'ri would be to overpower them in a way that prevents their invasion altogether. It'd be cool if the Holy Grail acted as a kind of O'ri repellant. I'd definitely rather see that than something that'd trap/maim/poison/torture/whatever harm them.
You seem to be forgetting that they DO kill their followers. If their followers are caught commiting heresy they are killed. The weapon does not harm their followers. It stops the Ori, thats all. You can't have a perfect solution to any threat. The Ori want to convert us all so they can leech off of us or kill us if we don't convert. The weapon causes no harm to the Ori's followers AT ALL. Yes the Ori wouldn't be able to act in this plane in their home galaxy, but so what? It doesn't stop the people form still believing in them if they so choose. The Ori and their followers would relish slaughtering all of us if they had the chance. Neutralizing the Ori is far far more humane than what they would do to us, yet you challenge the ethics of it? The ideal situation would be to somehow seal their galaxy off from ours, let them and their worshippers exist seperate from the rest of the universe, but thats not gonna happen. The Ori will keep trying to invade this galaxy until they have no followers left to fight or they win. The device stops them. The big picture is that the Ori will stop at nothing to convert or kill every last living being in this galaxy and any other galaxies they can find. The device neutralizes them with out harming their followers. Their followers can then choose whatever course of action they wish.

thenimf
March 19th, 2006, 04:37 PM
You seem to be forgetting that they DO kill their followers. If their followers are caught commiting heresy they are killed. The weapon does not harm their followers. It stops the Ori, thats all. You can't have a perfect solution to any threat. The Ori want to convert us all so they can leech off of us or kill us if we don't convert. The weapon causes no harm to the Ori's followers AT ALL. Yes the Ori wouldn't be able to act in this plane in their home galaxy, but so what? It doesn't stop the people form still believing in them if they so choose. The Ori and their followers would relish slaughtering all of us if they had the chance. Neutralizing the Ori is far far more humane than what they would do to us, yet you challenge the ethics of it? The ideal situation would be to somehow seal their galaxy off from ours, let them and their worshippers exist seperate from the rest of the universe, but thats not gonna happen. The Ori will keep trying to invade this galaxy until they have no followers left to fight or they win. The device stops them. The big picture is that the Ori will stop at nothing to convert or kill every last living being in this galaxy and any other galaxies they can find. The device neutralizes them with out harming their followers. Their followers can then choose whatever course of action they wish.

So why aren't you protesting about Muslim women having their clitoris' cut off to reduce the chance of infidelity? Why aren't you out there supporting troops in Iraq? From the sound of it you are a lot about all people and believe strongly in repressing any opressors...

Also, you seem very passionate in your hate for the O'ri. And on top of all this, what they do to their followers is none of our business. If you disagree then you should maybe think about bringing your actual beliefs in line with your actions and spoken word... Unless of course you do protest for the rights of Muslim women and the welfare of troops stationed in Iraq, in which case - kudos.

Spell_Daemon
March 19th, 2006, 04:44 PM
Read this thread? Your rebuttals have already been rebutted.

Sorry... didn't have the time, just decieded to rebut the original post.

thenimf
March 19th, 2006, 04:47 PM
Sorry... didn't have the time, just decieded to rebut the original post.

S'all cool. They were good, and valid, points. But yeh, already taken down... to a sort of truce actually. *shrugs*

spg_1983
March 19th, 2006, 05:09 PM
So why aren't you protesting about Muslim women having their clitoris' cut off to reduce the chance of infidelity? Why aren't you out there supporting troops in Iraq? From the sound of it you are a lot about all people and believe strongly in repressing any opressors...

Also, you seem very passionate in your hate for the O'ri. And on top of all this, what they do to their followers is none of our business. If you disagree then you should maybe think about bringing your actual beliefs in line with your actions and spoken word... Unless of course you do protest for the rights of Muslim women and the welfare of troops stationed in Iraq, in which case - kudos.
Excuse me? I DO protest the treatment of Muslim women, I Do support our TROOPS, but not the war. I am against repression. I don't hate the Ori. I oppose them and what they believe. What happens to their followers is my business and everyones business because they have been mislead and used. They have been led to believe that by worshipping and sacrificing everything for the Ori they get something in return but that isnt the case. They have been lied to and given up their freedom because of it and I oppose that. They need to be given the WHOLE truth and then allowed to make their choice. The Ori need to be removed from the equation all together so they cant influence and trick the people. The people need to be shown that they aren't gods and what they really are and that the Ori won't ascend them as a reward for their devotion. After all of that is made freely and openly available to them, free of the influence of the Ori, and they are allowed to make their choice. If after all that they choose to still worship the Ori then so be it, they make their bed and can lie in it, but they still must be prevented from carrying on their crusade of murdering unbelievers. They can be free to spread their message if they so choose, but they can not be allowed to murder those that choose not to convert.

Mattathias2.0
March 19th, 2006, 05:55 PM
Since when were the Ancients bad guys?

Albiet, they made plenty of mistakes... Left tech around everywhere... The Replicators, The Asuras, The Wraith, The Dakara Device, Atlantis, The Aurora, The Orion, 'Ayiana', Chaya, Oma, Anubis...

Needless to say: They make a few mistakes.

Mattathias

spg_1983
March 19th, 2006, 06:16 PM
Since when were the Ancients bad guys?

Albiet, they made plenty of mistakes... Left tech around everywhere... The Replicators, The Asuras, The Wraith, The Dakara Device, Atlantis, The Aurora, The Orion, 'Ayiana', Chaya, Oma, Anubis...

Needless to say: They make a few mistakes.

Mattathias
All true, like you said mistakes. Makes takes don;t make one evil. They may be labeled as arrogant, irresponsible, uncaring, self-centered, etc, but not evil. In order to be considered evil one would need to show evidence of actual malicious intent to cause harm to forces that were no threat to them through those actions or inactions.

thenimf
March 19th, 2006, 06:25 PM
All true, like you said mistakes. Makes takes don;t make one evil. They may be labeled as arrogant, irresponsible, uncaring, self-centered, etc, but not evil. In order to be considered evil one would need to show evidence of actual malicious intent to cause harm to forces that were no threat to them through those actions or inactions.


Umm... inactions relate back to arrogance, irresponsibility, being uncaring and self centred. Also, I consider those traits to be inherently bad. Therefore, bad guys. I never said the word evil. That was something everyone else decided.

Besides, we've already pointed out in this thread that we don't know enough to make out whether or not they had malicious intent behind these "mistakes".

And if you read my recent post, I'm not saying that this is immediately cannon and that the Alterrans are DEFINITELY the bad guys. I'm saying that the facts that I've presented give the writers of the show a more interesting direction to go in.

spg_1983
March 19th, 2006, 06:31 PM
Umm... inactions relate back to arrogance, irresponsibility, being uncaring and self centred. Also, I consider those traits to be inherently bad. Therefore, bad guys. I never said the word evil. That was something everyone else decided.
How do you figure? They are not particulalry flattering traits, but they arent bad. They have never done anything, as far as we have seen, to purposefully cause harm to any persone or group that did not pose a threat to them. By inaction I meant their policy, as Ascended beings and before that as an extremely advanced race technologically and socially, of not interfering with less advanced races affairs and developments.

thenimf
March 19th, 2006, 06:44 PM
How do you figure? They are not particulalry flattering traits, but they arent bad. They have never done anything, as far as we have seen, to purposefully cause harm to any persone or group that did not pose a threat to them. By inaction I meant their policy, as Ascended beings and before that as an extremely advanced race technologically and socially, of not interfering with less advanced races affairs and developments.

I guess it's a difference in opinion here... I find that arrogance and such is not only unflattering, but can also be damaging. Just look at what happened to the Ancients after they met the Wratih... as Morgan (was that her name?) said, they had never encountered beings that rivalled them before. Their arrogance cost them the Pegasus Galaxy... not to mention the countless human worlds they seeded.

spg_1983
March 19th, 2006, 07:33 PM
I guess it's a difference in opinion here... I find that arrogance and such is not only unflattering, but can also be damaging. Just look at what happened to the Ancients after they met the Wratih... as Morgan (was that her name?) said, they had never encountered beings that rivalled them before. Their arrogance cost them the Pegasus Galaxy... not to mention the countless human worlds they seeded.
But thats not really arrogance. They came across an enemy that kicked their ass. They may have THOUGHT before meeting them that they could never be defeated, but we dont know that, and that would be arrogance. As far as we know, until that point they truly had never met an enemy to rival them, in which case it isnt arrogance, it is simple acceptance of fact. However if we find evidence later on that they allowed the wraith to grow because they felt they could contain them and wanted to study them, then yes that would be arrogance, but again that doesnt make them "bad guys" in the sense of being an antogonist on the show.

JanusAncient
March 19th, 2006, 08:16 PM
Any situation which allows for the Ori to kill us on a massive scale to further some glorious end is simply a matter of the ends justifying the means; a heading under which you can excuse all manner of evils whether it be rape torture or genocide. Convenient for your cause but no less evil. For one thing, if killing us justifies some greater purpose, why not just wipe out the whole galaxy efficiently? Why bother offering conversion, turning people into zombies, engineering bugs, and burning your own priors? It would make that much more sense to skip the speech and go about the business of extermination.

It will always be a case of the end result justifying the means, be it for good or for evil. I just don't see a difference, maybe this makes me morally bankrupt, but that doesn't bother me. I don't have it in me to harm another person, heck I can't even bring myself to harm a fly without feeling deep remorse, but I can see the bigger picture. They don't want to wipe out all life in the galaxy, all the other races will remain untouched, it seems that only humanity, well the humans created by the Ancients, and those willing to side with them, are the only beings in this galaxy they wish to destroy. Jaffa were given their longevity by the Goa'uld, but they still only exist because of the Ancients. Fear, intimidation, only kill if you have no other recourse, if they can turn people to their cause, without having to actually slaughter a race, why not do it, especially if they have the technology to revive a planets entire population.




You seem to be missing the entire point of my post. It doesn't matter if ALL ancients are good or not. It doesn't even matter if ALL Ori are evil. The Ori have never done anything that benefits us in the slightest; not a single one of them. In fact, since the very moment they found out about us they've been trying to kill us. No matter how self serving anything the ancients may have done is, at least one of them has done something for us. And those things are the basis on which we have to judge them. The only basis.

Haven't they, they gave them a choice between life and death, they chose to fight, they didn't attack them, they offered them their message and they refused it, in the eyes of the Ori that was an act of aggression, if you're not with them, you're with the Ancients. And, they don't have to do anything for them, for the Ori to still be right!


The entire point of what I just said is one good deed by one ancient outweighs no good deeds by the Ori. If that was the only evidence by which I was forced to choose in whom to trust, I would have to go with the one good deed.

No it doesn't, if all of their good deeds are self-serving ones. In any case, I'd have to choose the Ori, because I get the impression that they wouldn't let someone they ascended, just go and destroy all life in their galaxy, I don't care how evil they look at the moment.


No matter what the truth turns out to be in the end, as it stands, the Ori are still the bad guys and the Ancients are still, given the evidence at hand, the ones most likely to help, or if you like, most likely not to kill us all. Not a single one of the ancients we've come across, ascended or not, has shown any inclination towards harming us or our entire galaxy.

Those Ancients that wiped out an entire race of people, Orlin, Valona? Or, the one that killed the Jaffa, Oma, Kheb? Or Merlin's black knight?

[/QUOTE]Jumping to the conclusion that the Ancients are evil is like meeting five random Americans who, despite the questionable decisions of their leaders, are nice to you personally and try to help you out every now and then when they can without risking their lives, jobs, and everything they believe. Then you meet one dictator who represents an entire nation who immediately tries to shoot at you and then going hmm... maybe he had a good reason for shooting at me and killing my friends.[/QUOTE]

I'm not saying the Ancients are evil, just that they aren't completely trustworthy, and that everything they say shouldn't be believed, simply because they said it!!


There is absolutely no benefit to jumping to alternate explanations while ignoring the most obvious. When someone tries to kill you, you shoot back. You don't rationalize their decisions and try to find a reason why it might be OK that they're trying to kill you. If you're right you're dead, if you're wrong, you're still dead and it won't matter if you died by the hands of the "good" guys becuase you won't be around to make the judgement call.

What's wrong with dying, if I have to die, or sacrifice myself doing what I believe to be right, that is something I don't mind. Rationality separates us from mindless, that only follow instinct.


We have no idea why the alliance was formed. It was never said that it was formed to protect against hostile races. In fact the closes thing to explanation came from Earnest's notebook:

Yet, it wasn't an explanation, merely speculation.


Will all humans be made priors? Will the Ori give ALL humans the knowledge of the universe? If this is the case, why did Tomin, a man born in the presence of all that great knowledge spend so much of his life lame when the the "knowledge of the universe" could have served to save him all that? He was born into Origin, his parents were born into Origin... where is their universal knowledge?

Will they? For all we know, not all of the Ori were able to ascend, just like the Ancients, maybe they only give such gifts to those they feel are worthy. Tomin, should they cure every physical ailment now, they most likely do more for the humans they control, than the Ancients will ever do. Who are his parents, for all we know that Doci was Tomin's father.


Seriously, Worship or die and worship and die is acceptable to you? Seriously? :eek: Quite frankly, that scares me. I would never want to have those choices as my only option. I can die now, or waste my life as nothing more than a battery and die later. Yeah, I can see how that might make them the good guys. :rolleyes:

This isn't about good or evil, at least not as I see it. It is about right and wrong, good can be tainted, evil can be diluted, but what is right, just like what is wrong, never changes! I think the Ancients have done just as much wrong as the Ori in their time, and the Ori about as much right as the Ancients.


Furthermore, what would we be too late for? What do you suppose the evil plan of the Ancients is? It's hard to be late for a plan we can't even be sure exists, have no evidence for.

It isn't about plans, it is about reasons, it isn't about expectations, it is about contradictions, it is about seeing all of the truth, not just the moment to moment truth, that which catches your eye in that particular time of revelation. The Ancients nor the Ori are what's important, the people in the middle are. I guess I'm just unwilling to trust those I barely know, because they offered a hand, more for their benefit, than for mine.

BnF95
March 20th, 2006, 02:26 AM
As far as I can tell, the Ori are "bad guys" because they don't allow their worshippers free choice ... for that matter, a comfortable life with technology.

On the other hand the Alterrans/Atlanteans/Ancients don't really care about the people living in "a lower plane of existence" either. Ommission by inaction is still bad. As someone once said, "all it would take for evil to win, is for good men to do nothing." Which is exactly the crime of the Ancients.

So ... why not just say that, as a race in general, the prototype Alterrans/Ori were a bunch of arrogant snobs that think they are gods. :cool:

MarshAngel
March 20th, 2006, 06:25 AM
They don't want to wipe out all life in the galaxy, all the other races will remain untouched, it seems that only humanity, well the humans created by the Ancients, and those willing to side with them, are the only beings in this galaxy they wish to destroy.

When did they tell you this? We have no idea what their plans are for other races in the galaxy.


...especially if they have the technology to revive a planets entire population.

When did they tell you they would do this? There is no indication they will be reviving any of the population when they're done slaughtering them.
If you're speaking of the incident in The Powers that Be, the prior held the threat of death by plague over the heads of the population until they bowed down and worshipped the Ori. I'm fascinated at how these actions can be interpreted as good or be acceptable in anyway.



Haven't they, they gave them a choice between life and death, they chose to fight, they didn't attack them, they offered them their message and they refused it, in the eyes of the Ori that was an act of aggression, if you're not with them, you're with the Ancients. And, they don't have to do anything for them, for the Ori to still be right!

Haven't they what? If we're not with them we're with the ancients? That makes no sense. That's like saying since a man is born German he must owe his allegience to the Nazis. I'd dare say most humans don't even know the Ancients existed so why should they be killed for being on their side?



No it doesn't, if all of their good deeds are self-serving ones. In any case, I'd have to choose the Ori, because I get the impression that they wouldn't let someone they ascended, just go and destroy all life in their galaxy, I don't care how evil they look at the moment.

Find me a single altruistic act that doesn't benefit the doer. It doesn't matter whether a good deed is self serving or not as long as its good. That's like saying a nurse isn't a good person because she gets paid to take care of her patients.

Let me get this straight, the Ori may be good because they won't let someone destroy their store of human cocaine? We are useful to them as batteries, heroine, whatever analogy you want to use. If we aren't worshipping them for their gain they kill us, Please reference all incidences under which humans have been killed by priors or Ori followers. And before you point out that we can't trust Orlin saying they sap our energy, please come up with an alternate reason why it's so (life & death) important that we worship them.



Those Ancients that wiped out an entire race of people, Orlin, Valona? Or, the one that killed the Jaffa, Oma, Kheb? Or Merlin's black knight?

Which is it? It's not ok for them to stand around and let people be killed for one of their mistakes or is it? The valonans were going to conquer and kill another race because of Orlin's mistake. The Jaffa would gladly have killed SG1 and if they got their hands on him, Shifu.

If you think the ends justify the means then Merlin's black knight did the right thing. It prevented a dangerous weapon and knowledge from being taken by someone who may use it for evil.



I'm not saying the Ancients are evil, just that they aren't completely trustworthy, and that everything they say shouldn't be believed, simply because they said it!!

We aren't trustworthy either. We've killed Jaffa, hidden our intentions, insisted on having things our way, used people..... I guess we should let the Ori kill us. they're right. We are evil.

Let's see the logic you've laid out.

The ancients have not tried to kill us. That's a fact. We would know if they did.

The Ori are trying to kill us. That's a fact. We a frantic because of it.

The Ori say, the Ancients are evil liars who've led us down the path of evil despite the fact that we didn't even know they existed until recently. And to reinforce their point as the truth they unleash a plague on us and threaten us with death and war.

The Ancients say the Ori are evil liars. One of them tries to help us cure the same plague the Ori have unleashed.

Let's say for a moment the ancients are lying. The Ori aren't evil. They are ascending you. Explain the shocked look on the Priors face in The fourth Horseman Pt II when it's explained the Ori aren't ascending anyone. If they are, he should know right? He has the knowledge of the universe right? We have seen at least two incidences of how people ascend on death. They take their bodies with them. The prior shouldn't have had a moment of doubt if he'd seen it.

Secondly, the Ori offer the knowledge of the Universe; they say they do anyway. If they do then the priors should know this: they can ascend on their own through meditation and whatever other means the path entails. Why then are the people worshipping the Ori instead of focusing on their path? Because the Ori destroyed all the evidence the ancients left behind. They don't even know they can.

Does that sound like the deeds of someone trustworthy?



What's wrong with dying, if I have to die, or sacrifice myself doing what I believe to be right, that is something I don't mind. Rationality separates us from mindless, that only follow instinct.


So let me see if I get this right. You can die for believing in the Ori but I shouldn't die fighting them although I believe that's right because they're offering me the knowledge of the universe which I won't get until I die so no one will know if I've been rewarded or not. Convenient.


Will they? For all we know, not all of the Ori were able to ascend, just like the Ancients, maybe they only give such gifts to those they feel are worthy. Tomin, should they cure every physical ailment now, they most likely do more for the humans they control, than the Ancients will ever do. Who are his parents, for all we know that Doci was Tomin's father.

So, what you're basically telling me is that the Ori aren't offering what they say they are.
If they offer the knowledge of the universe to the millions of people who've died and according to them joined them among the ranks of the ascended, and they have no problem interfering then there should be one ascended being for every village right? They could cure everyone's ailments or give them the knowledge to do it themselves.

They could make everyone a prior. But they don't. why? because they don't deem them worthy? Then how do we know which ones ascended or not. Perhaps they haven't deemed anyone worthy. Incidentally, that would still make them liars.



This isn't about good or evil, at least not as I see it. It is about right and wrong, good can be tainted, evil can be diluted, but what is right, just like what is wrong, never changes!

That's a fallacy. Right and wrong change all the time and are constantly in flux. Once upon a time human sacrifice was right. Cannibalism was right. Rape wasn't against the law. Wife beating was right. Some place these things still are ok. If it's wrong in some places, right in others, how is it that it never changes?


I guess I'm just unwilling to trust those I barely know, because they offered a hand, more for their benefit, than for mine.

We may barely know the ancients but we know them a lot better than the Ori and if you want be quite honest, we know more about them than we do about the Nox. And since we've never done anything for other people that doesn't benefit us I don't see how that's a basis for lack of trust. We are completely untrustworthy.

Bragi
March 20th, 2006, 01:42 PM
Right, so you come into a thread and arrogantly proclaim a victor without contributing any useful discussion and then go off and tag me for having bad form? Wake up *****.

Sticks and stones.

spg still wins.

thenimf
March 20th, 2006, 02:43 PM
But thats not really arrogance. They came across an enemy that kicked their ass. They may have THOUGHT before meeting them that they could never be defeated, but we dont know that, and that would be arrogance. As far as we know, until that point they truly had never met an enemy to rival them, in which case it isnt arrogance, it is simple acceptance of fact. However if we find evidence later on that they allowed the wraith to grow because they felt they could contain them and wanted to study them, then yes that would be arrogance, but again that doesnt make them "bad guys" in the sense of being an antogonist on the show.

That's the thing though, their assumption that they could never be defeated meant that they didn't take precautions when exploring the galaxy. Morgan clearly expressed in The Rising that the Atlanteans were getting creamed because they had never met anyone who could rival them in battle - this means they were not prepared on any level to encounter such resistance. If the Atlanteans had any kind of concept of caution when exploring new galaxies there would be more than one chair in Atlantis, there would be sentry guns around the city and a whole bunch of other things that I'm sure the Atlanteans were perfectly capable of coming up with.

Considering they were in such a foreign place and would still remember the O'ri, on some level, it's unusual for them not to be prepared for something like the Wraith. I think you're a bit whack to not consider the Alterrans/Atlanteans arrogant.

spg_1983
March 20th, 2006, 02:59 PM
That's the thing though, their assumption that they could never be defeated meant that they didn't take precautions when exploring the galaxy. Morgan clearly expressed in The Rising that the Atlanteans were getting creamed because they had never met anyone who could rival them in battle - this means they were not prepared on any level to encounter such resistance. If the Atlanteans had any kind of concept of caution when exploring new galaxies there would be more than one chair in Atlantis, there would be sentry guns around the city and a whole bunch of other things that I'm sure the Atlanteans were perfectly capable of coming up with.

Considering they were in such a foreign place and would still remember the O'ri, on some level, it's unusual for them not to be prepared for something like the Wraith. I think you're a bit whack to not consider the Alterrans/Atlanteans arrogant.
Im not saying they were not arrogant, Im just saying that it was well deserved. Why should they take such precautions? In the millions of years they had been around they had never met anyone that could stand up to them, it is completely normal for them to think the trend would continue, ESPECIALLY in a galaxy that they believed was completely devoid of life. That is why they went there. There was no intelligent life there, so they went to seed human life. Why should they take precautions against opposition that doesnt exist?

JanusAncient
March 20th, 2006, 03:03 PM
That's a fallacy. Right and wrong change all the time and are constantly in flux. Once upon a time human sacrifice was right. Cannibalism was right. Rape wasn't against the law. Wife beating was right. Some place these things still are ok. If it's wrong in some places, right in others, how is it that it never changes?

I will only respond to this. Human sacrifice, cannibalism, rape, wife beating, theys things were never right, they were only accepted, there is a difference, between what is right and what is allowed, you must understand this.

thenimf
March 20th, 2006, 03:23 PM
Im not saying they were not arrogant


But thats not really arrogance.


:mckay:

spg_1983
March 20th, 2006, 03:47 PM
I will only respond to this. Human sacrifice, cannibalism, rape, wife beating, theys things were never right, they were only accepted, there is a difference, between what is right and what is allowed, you must understand this.
You need to study history. All through out history there have been cultures and societies that not only accepted those things but embraced them. The Aztecs lives revolved around human sacrifices. Half of the migratory tribes of the pacific islands were cannabilistic at one time. The ancient Mongols considered rape the appropriate way of showing a mans pwoer over his wife, and until the last 200 years, almost all societies embraced wife beating to one degree or another.

thenimf
March 20th, 2006, 04:08 PM
You need to study history. All through out history there have been cultures and societies that not only accepted those things but embraced them. The Aztecs lives revolved around human sacrifices. Half of the migratory tribes of the pacific islands were cannabilistic at one time. The ancient Mongols considered rape the appropriate way of showing a mans pwoer over his wife, and until the last 200 years, almost all societies embraced wife beating to one degree or another.

But that's the thing, it's still didn't make it right - just accepted/praised. What's right is subjective to the people making the judgement. At this point, retrospectively, that was not good behaviour. It was accepted at the time, yes, but it was not by any means right. You never know though, a few more Republican terms and maybe society will suddenly deem wife beating and rape to be socially acceptable and Aztecs and Mongols will be viewed as pioneers or role models or whatever. But at this point in time, definitely not.

spg_1983
March 20th, 2006, 04:18 PM
But that's the thing, it's still didn't make it right - just accepted/praised. What's right is subjective to the people making the judgement. At this point, retrospectively, that was not good behaviour. It was accepted at the time, yes, but it was not by any means right. You never know though, a few more Republican terms and maybe society will suddenly deem wife beating and rape to be socially acceptable and Aztecs and Mongols will be viewed as pioneers or role models or whatever. But at this point in time, definitely not.
It is not right by OUR social mores, but that doesn't make it wrong. That society decided it was right. We can look at it and decide it is wrong for us, and unacceptable in our society, but we can't say they were wrong. We weren't there, it wasn't our society. Who are we to say they were wrong? They could just as easily say the exact same thing about our society? Who's is the right one? Neither. We can only assess and apply right and wrong to our own current society because we can only fully incorporate all factors in our own time and place.

thenimf
March 20th, 2006, 04:27 PM
It is not right by OUR social mores, but that doesn't make it wrong. That society decided it was right. We can look at it and decide it is wrong for us, and unacceptable in our society, but we can't say they were wrong. We weren't there, it wasn't our society. Who are we to say they were wrong? They could just as easily say the exact same thing about our society? Who's is the right one? Neither. We can only assess and apply right and wrong to our own current society because we can only fully incorporate all factors in our own time and place.


How does that contradict what I said? You just re-iterated my point :p

spg_1983
March 20th, 2006, 04:32 PM
How does that contradict what I said? You just re-iterated my point :p
Did it? My bad, sorry, I guess I miss understood your attitude. I thought you were saying that because it was wrong by our current standards that made it wrong back then too. Its been a loooooong day.

MarshAngel
March 20th, 2006, 04:36 PM
How does that contradict what I said? You just re-iterated my point :p
Yes and you proved my point. Right and wrong is changeable and is by no means absolute. There is no overarching universal precept. As long as it is being interpreted by humans it cannot be absolute as human culture by it's very nature is constantly changing.

thenimf
March 20th, 2006, 04:38 PM
Did it? My bad, sorry, I guess I miss understood your attitude. I thought you were saying that because it was wrong by our current standards that made it wrong back then too. Its been a loooooong day.

Haha, yeah. Nah, I was definitely saying it was subject to scrutiny by whoever was making the judgement. Haha. It's only morning here in Australia.

spg_1983
March 20th, 2006, 05:03 PM
Haha, yeah. Nah, I was definitely saying it was subject to scrutiny by whoever was making the judgement. Haha. It's only morning here in Australia.
You're an Aussie? Where abouts mate?

JUNIOR
March 20th, 2006, 05:29 PM
We don't know that at all. All we know is that it produces an effect that causes interference on their plane of existence and neutralizes their ability to affect our plane. We have no evidence that it actually causes them harm, and Daniel said that it doesn't actually kill them. So the implication seems to be that it works like a putting a prisoner in a jail cell. You don't kill them but neutralize their ability to cause harm.

IMO the way that it was explained kind of sounded like they wouldn't be killed but they would just lose power to effect anything in our dimension. They would in effect be like those Sight Unseen bugs.

spg_1983
March 20th, 2006, 05:41 PM
IMO the way that it was explained kind of sounded like they wouldn't be killed but they would just lose power to effect anything in our dimension. They would in effect be like those Sight Unseen bugs.
Thats how daniel explained it, and thats how I took it.

thenimf
March 20th, 2006, 07:03 PM
You're an Aussie? Where abouts mate?

Perth, Western Australia :jonas:

JanusAncient
March 20th, 2006, 11:08 PM
But that's the thing, it's still didn't make it right - just accepted/praised. What's right is subjective to the people making the judgement. At this point, retrospectively, that was not good behaviour. It was accepted at the time, yes, but it was not by any means right. You never know though, a few more Republican terms and maybe society will suddenly deem wife beating and rape to be socially acceptable and Aztecs and Mongols will be viewed as pioneers or role models or whatever. But at this point in time, definitely not.


Exactly, except for the part about the republicans, I really just think they're misunderstood, pioneers, oh goodness I hope not.

spg_1983
March 21st, 2006, 04:15 AM
Perth, Western Australia :jonas:
You wrent hit by that monster of a Cyclone then were you?

Lokii
March 21st, 2006, 06:14 AM
The Ancients may be guilty of being arrogant, but evil... no way.

Karec
March 21st, 2006, 09:30 AM
Simply, They created us Mankind. The scourge of the galaxy. Destroyers of worlds.

The Alterans where evil:cameron:

thenimf
March 21st, 2006, 03:20 PM
You wrent hit by that monster of a Cyclone then were you?

Nah, that was Brisbane? Other side of the country... :P

spg_1983
March 21st, 2006, 04:09 PM
Nah, that was Brisbane? Other side of the country... :P
Ah, well thats good! My australian geography is quite rusty.

Wedo765
March 22nd, 2006, 08:41 PM
See this debate could go on forever, its not the arguement over the Ancients and the Ori, its Science and Technology against Religion, it just depends on what your belief is, as far as anyone knows for sure,

The Ori may very well ascend their followers (although i don't believe it) and keeping technolgy away from the "their" humans would make their galaxy safer and no races are destroyed, and everyones better for it, no freedom, worship the Ori, complete Safety, and you never have to take responsibility for anything or grow as a people, cause your gods are always looking out for u.

The Ancients on the otherside believe that people should do things for themselves. Although there are a few exceptions (Oma) as a whole they believe that to acheive enlightment you must do it on your own. They think "their" humans are better off with free will and to do what they want, its the only way we grow, and eventually will learn to use the technology they left beind correctly...the most powerful things where used by the Goa'uld anyway and the Ancients aren't resonsible for that, they gave Humans life useing the Dakara Weopon, but have never encouraged a religion to be based around them, I will concede that sometimes they take their non interference a little far, the Ori for example, but its there guiding principle, and they still do try to help sometimes,

You can't really say that the either group is truly evil, cause their actions could be justified, the Ori could claim defense, or that they're only doing whats best for us, a few million dead is hardly a price if trillions upon trillions of humans in 3 Galaxies are safe under the Ori, so what if their not free to do what they want. And the Ancients have only done their truely horrible things when it was their fault to begin with, for example, Orlin helped the people of the World to build the weopon that repelled the Goa'uld, with the best of intentions, the people where "young" as the Nox would say, and tried to turn it on other worlds and would become no better then the Goa'uld, except it would be because the Ancients interfered, so the loss of one race, was better then the oppression of millions.

You can't use the technology theory to explain why the Ancients are bad. We haven't really seen much of the Ori's Galaxy, but their clearly as advaned as the Ancients, so far they have energy weopons, rings, ships (that may or may not have a hyperdrive) and one big ass Stargate. there may be other stuff scattered throughout the Galaxy we just haven't seen yet, and although we haven't seen it, there got to be some kind of Stargate system in the Galaxy, some way to power it, there may even be the equivalent of any number of Ancient things that exsist in our Galaxy. From what we've seen the humans in the Ori Galaxy are all pretty primitive so even if they found some of them, i doubt they'd be able to use it, even a Stargate may be beyond them.

Wedo765
March 22nd, 2006, 08:43 PM
I will however point out that the Ori say believe or die, and the Ancients when presented with this choice, rather then a fight that would cost lives, left their homes, when the Ori would be more then happy to destroy them, and that only the Ori have ever said they'll destroy the Ancients, and the Ancients just want to live in peace

zpm!!
March 23rd, 2006, 05:43 AM
The Great Plague, the Plague that almost wiped out all life in the milkyway galaxy, what if that Plague is the same Plague that the Ori were trying to use against us again?????
Great Plague= lots of death
Ori Plague= we have anti-bodies against now.

Cherriey
March 23rd, 2006, 07:06 AM
They like fighting? Once they're ascended they don't seem to like doing much of anything!
The Ori want to kill off the Ancients to protect themselves? Then why are they focusing on us lower life-forms who merely say 'no we won't prostrate to you for six hours every day'?

marcws
March 23rd, 2006, 10:14 AM
I dont agree that the ancients are bad and like fighting lets look at the good things that come from the ancients:
1)if it wasnt for the ancients earth would have been wiped out by the prior plague and if you say it was just orlin the cure in his mind came from ancient medical reaserch.
2)Anuibis would have invaded earth
3)atlantis would have been destroyed by the wraith if they didnt get the zpm
4)oniell would never have met the asgard in that episode were the ancient database was downloaded into his mind.
5)thanks to the stargate humans have explored the galaxy.
6)Humans would never had destroyed the goa'old.
7)Humans would never have brought up the weapon agaist the kul warriors
8)the replicators would never have been defeated.
9)if it wasnt for the ascended ancients which ascended oma desala daniel would have died.
SHOULD I GO ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Just simply say the ancients are not evil.

thenimf
March 23rd, 2006, 03:01 PM
marcws, Cherriey and Wedo765


Keeping in mind that this thread is not proclaiming that the Alterrans are evil. It is merely here to point out parts of cannon that would allow to make the show go in that direction. Also, it doesn't necessarily mean that the O'ri are good if the Alterrans are evil. It is perfectly plausible for the entire race to be scum. Just look at the Goa'uld. The best they could come up with was the self-serving Tok'ra.

Wedo765
March 23rd, 2006, 08:48 PM
I agree, I think thats the beauty of an enemy like the Ori, whereas I personally think their evil, you could conceiveably go either way.

From the Ori's point of view the Ancients are evil for sheilding us from the "truth"

From the Ancients point of view the Ori are evil for forceing others to worship them.

But both groups could be justified as only trying to do whats best for the humans in the Universe...

MarshAngel
March 24th, 2006, 05:26 AM
marcws, Cherriey and Wedo765


Keeping in mind that this thread is not proclaiming that the Alterrans are evil. It is merely here to point out parts of cannon that would allow to make the show go in that direction. Also, it doesn't necessarily mean that the O'ri are good if the Alterrans are evil. It is perfectly plausible for the entire race to be scum. Just look at the Goa'uld. The best they could come up with was the self-serving Tok'ra.

I understand what you're saying but I don't think the storyline could go that way without making a complete mess and basically contradicting the writing style that has been established over the last several years. I don't see the set up for the ancients being evil for the simple reason that I haven't seen any evidence of there being some gain for them in any of this and I think that would be the first thing we'd need.

The show is very straightforward good vs. evil. It would have been nice for there to have been more ambiguity in the series but there hasn't been much of that at all. I think that's one of the problems many people have with the Ori. They are basically just like the Goa'uld and every other enemy. They've been set up to be all one way, clearly, inarguably evil. We are clearly the good guys, they are clearly the bad guys and given what they've laid out there doesn't seem to be a middle ground on which to stand.

The only ambiguity that exists is in the human characters, and in the end they usually do the right thing anyway.

I will say however, that if it can be established that the ancients can gain something either from our existence, destruction, or the taking of something we need to survive, then I'd believe that the story could go in that direction.

The story set up for this would be that: The ancients have created a galaxy of countless of humans (as an army/counteragent of sorts), manipulated events just enough to seem accidental, set it up so that we'd provoke the Ori and force them to send their armies to the MW so that we would go to war, cancel each other out, weakening the Ori just enough so that they could destroy them. Or they knowingly built or allowed for the building of the weapon against the ascended knowing they couldn't use it but knowing we would, for the same end.


It doesn't sound so bad except it's full of plotholes and character contradictions. Of course if anyone can come up with a better version it would make for interesting speculation and good reading.

GhostPoet
March 24th, 2006, 11:29 AM
I think they are both evil...and we are caught in the middle. The Ori are fanatics and believe themselves to be god's.

The Ancients were uppity when they were "human"..thinking themselves superior to all others (assumption)...when they raced to ascension they took it upon themselves to GOVERN the ascended realm. I mean, think about it...who gave THEM authority to govern what can and can't be done in the Ascended level? Everytime we've seen an ancient..they've always stuck me with a hint of "we are far greater than you." They may not ask to be worshipped..but I think they feel they are rulers in a way.

Perhaps they had something to do with the Wraith as well...something that made the Wraith kill them...to save themselves.