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View Full Version : A question about the age of the Ancient Alliance and what they did



thenimf
March 12th, 2006, 03:11 AM
Just had a thought a few days ago, and I may be wrong because I forget things.

But, was the Ancient Alliance formed before or after Pegasus? See, to me it seems like the Ancients only sought out the other races after they got back from Atlantis because they were so distraught/had nothing to do.

The room in that episode with the flying molecules suggests that at the start of the Alliance they had difficulty in communicating with one another, verbally at least. Now, assuming that that marks a very early stage of the alliance, we can look at the castle to determine how old it is. I really doubt the castle is millions of years old, I mean, the pyramids have only been around a few thousand years and they're falling apart in favorable conditions, imagine a several million year old castle in a European/Tropical/American climate?

I'd say the castle is <10,000 years old, coinciding with the Ancients return to MW. This would also mean that the Furling sanctuary would only be a few thousand years old instead of a few million, making more sense for the Goa'uld to be around.

I also have another thought on the Ancients DNA mutators and Ancient suppositories. I think that those two devices represented a last ditch effort to create more Alteran level humans, perhaps even to artificially evolve ally humans whom they trust. Once those people are evolved they could send them off to the Ancient suppority to bring them up to speed with all the knowledge of the Ancients, including Pegasus.

The above theory could tie in nicely with Arthur, who I reckon Merlin evolved articifially in order to bring him to the brink of ascension. Perhaps the reason Arthur had to go to three different places was to acquire information from several different suppositories that contained clues on the whereabouts of the Holy Grail.

Think of it this way, the suppositories are a complicated and vast library of the ENTIRE Alterran race, so they're big with a lot of info. Perhaps Merlin hid tiny shreds of data in each suppository as to not alert the Ancients, and forcing you to have all of the bits in order to know exactly where to find the Holy Grail.

Also, I believe that technically it might be simpler for us all to call the Alterrans just that, the O'ri the same and use the term Ancient to encompass the entire race as a whole? Just makes sense to me since they're both pretty damn old races..

And yeah, I'm saying suppository on purpose to remind us of the O'ri toilet seat.

Karec
March 12th, 2006, 03:46 AM
I whould like to point out that atlantis it self is millions of years old and look GREAT so an anceint built building thats falling apart have to be OLD. And if you look at the tech its very old. Its almost the same as the goa'uld's technology which shows alot from where the goa'uld got their own technology because that keyboard in that castle looks goa'uld.

Im thinking many many millions of years old when the furlings where still around and stuff and the stargates where advanced peices of technology.
And that Furling paradise was just a place for humans to live, I dont think there where any furlings there.

Im guessing the Nox is from our galaxy. The Lanteans from the Ori galaxy and the Asgard from their galaxy meaning the furlings are very likly from another galaxy and this alliance was an alliance of the 4 greatest races of a few galaxy's(Or 4).

I dont think mankind was being made yet by the anceints at that point:cool:

thenimf
March 12th, 2006, 04:23 AM
I whould like to point out that atlantis it self is millions of years old and look GREAT so an anceint built building thats falling apart have to be OLD. And if you look at the tech its very old. Its almost the same as the goa'uld's technology which shows alot from where the goa'uld got their own technology because that keyboard in that castle looks goa'uld.

Im thinking many many millions of years old when the furlings where still around and stuff and the stargates where advanced peices of technology.
And that Furling paradise was just a place for humans to live, I dont think there where any furlings there.

Im guessing the Nox is from our galaxy. The Lanteans from the Ori galaxy and the Asgard from their galaxy meaning the furlings are very likly from another galaxy and this alliance was an alliance of the 4 greatest races of a few galaxy's(Or 4).

I dont think mankind was being made yet by the anceints at that point:cool:


The thing is, in that episode I saw no indication that the place was built by the Ancients. It didn't follow any of the normal architecture. However, it did look very Medieval, which ties in around with Merlin's era.

Karec
March 12th, 2006, 04:27 AM
It might have been Nox built and equited with Anceint tech?:S
Did we really get that good veiw of actual Nox architecture?

I think the Nox buildings actual looks alittle like the castle. I might be wrong

thenimf
March 12th, 2006, 05:05 AM
That might be the best bet considering the architecture didn't look Asgard, Alteran/Atlantean or Furling.

Prior_of_the_Ori
March 12th, 2006, 07:49 AM
Yeah saw a picture a while ago and saw that the towers of the Nox Cityship look similar to the top of the Heliopolis where the Ancient Alliance would meet.

I generally call the entire race Ancients but divide them by calling them either Ancient Alterans, Ancient Lantians or Ancient Ori since they are all factions of the same race...Lantians can be considered separate because they were in a completely different galaxy to start over and none of their tech or capabilities resemble those of the Ancient Alterans.

Also had the similar belief that the Nox are from the Milky Way galaxy and the Furlings are from another galaxy as well. Just seems to make sense. And its interesting to see that the Furlings had a device similar to a Stargate. Really wish we could get more into the tech and abilities of these ancient members.

MarshAngel
March 12th, 2006, 07:53 AM
Just had a thought a few days ago, and I may be wrong because I forget things.

But, was the Ancient Alliance formed before or after Pegasus? See, to me it seems like the Ancients only sought out the other races after they got back from Atlantis because they were so distraught/had nothing to do.

I believe it was after as well. No conclusion can be drawn on that subject though, just lines of thought that make some sense.


The room in that episode with the flying molecules suggests that at the start of the Alliance they had difficulty in communicating with one another, verbally at least. Now, assuming that that marks a very early stage of the alliance, we can look at the castle to determine how old it is. I really doubt the castle is millions of years old, I mean, the pyramids have only been around a few thousand years and they're falling apart in favorable conditions, imagine a several million year old castle in a European/Tropical/American climate?

I thought of it in the same way but someone pointed out to me that the Ancients built things to last so the building could in fact be millions of years old. The ancients would have had to place the stargates in secure places otherwise a whole grand canyon could form under and around them in a few million years. Granted, the gate could easily be moved later but, a cliff overlooking the ocean would be a bad place to put a gate as erosion would eventually undermine the foundations if you're planning to leave it there for a long time. If the building were around for millions of years though, the ocean would have been much further away when it was originally placed. Point being, the building is probably not the best way to determine the age. The building could easily be older than its contents.



I'd say the castle is <10,000 years old, coinciding with the Ancients return to MW. This would also mean that the Furling sanctuary would only be a few thousand years old instead of a few million, making more sense for the Goa'uld to be around.
I also have another thought on the Ancients DNA mutators and Ancient suppositories. I think that those two devices represented a last ditch effort to create more Alteran level humans, perhaps even to artificially evolve ally humans whom they trust. Once those people are evolved they could send them off to the Ancient suppority to bring them up to speed with all the knowledge of the Ancients, including Pegasus.


Given the fact that the Furlings completely disappeared within the last 10,000 years, and the Ancients were also small in number at the same time, a last alliance of great races would make sense to me. I think they knew they were disappearing and (perhaps a few of them having the gift of foresight) chose to leave behind as much knowledge as they could for their descendants. I think thats what the alliance was about.

They left the stargates for their descendants so it wouldn't be out of character. They seem to like leaving a legacy for future generations.


And yeah, I'm saying suppository on purpose to remind us of the O'ri toilet seat.
I don't know if I should be more worried because you're saying it on purpose... very strange toilet humor.

Vahnman
March 12th, 2006, 10:26 AM
Well, that just great of the ancient. what would have taken then Goauld hundreads of thousand of years to do, the Ancient let them do it in a few thousand. By keeping the stargate connected, they handed the entire galaxy to the Goauld. What a nice and smart bunch of people.

But yeah thats the one thing I have never really get, where they dumb people? Why would they leave their stargate behind to be use in such a fashion and why not disable all of it the first time around? Ancients arent too smart and maybe that is why the Lantean had to split form them, the Alteran were passive, the Ori was too aggressive, but the Lantean seem to just want to explore but they would put up a fight if needed, even though they dont like to fight as much as we humans do.

Karec
March 12th, 2006, 10:35 AM
Did I miss something or when the heck did the anceints split into 2 parts called lanteans and Alterans? :confused:
Did alot of anceints just die and they all tryed to escape to the pegasus galaxy but failed because the wraiths came and then they returned and died?

MarshAngel
March 12th, 2006, 11:02 AM
Well, that just great of the ancient. what would have taken then Goauld hundreads of thousand of years to do, the Ancient let them do it in a few thousand. By keeping the stargate connected, they handed the entire galaxy to the Goauld. What a nice and smart bunch of people.

But yeah thats the one thing I have never really get, where they dumb people? Why would they leave their stargate behind to be use in such a fashion and why not disable all of it the first time around? Ancients arent too smart and maybe that is why the Lantean had to split form them, the Alteran were passive, the Ori was too aggressive, but the Lantean seem to just want to explore but they would put up a fight if needed, even though they dont like to fight as much as we humans do.

It has nothing to do with them being idiots. Would you prevent the invention of the aeroplane just to make sure no one ever attaches a bomb to it and thereby nip the space program in the bud as well?

The Stargate is just like any technology that can be used for enormous good and enormous evil. But if you want to stop the evil you end up stopping the good as well. It took the ancients millions of years to evolve and master space travel and to develop technology to leave their galaxy. They created the gates to make sure that people can meet and exchange ideas so we don't all sit here in ignorance for the next several million years. It's a risk but it's an entirely worthwhile one. They had knowledge, they shared.

The Goa'uld by no means controlled every gate in this galaxy or others with stargates so shutting them down just to prevent one pathetic bunch of parasites is a complete wimp out and utterly pointless. Furthermore, even while they controlled planets the gates were still being used to deafeat them.



Did I miss something or when the heck did the anceints split into 2 parts called lanteans and Alterans?
Did alot of anceints just die and they all tryed to escape to the pegasus galaxy but failed because the wraiths came and then they returned and died?

The "Ancients" is a general term for the ancestors of humans for whom we didn't have a name until we learned they were called Alterans. They came to our Galaxy when they split from the Ori. When the Alterans left the Milky Way - Earth specifically - via Atlantis they went to the Pegasus Galaxy, adapted the name of their city, and became Lanteans.

We don't know why the left the Milky Way, whether for exploration or because of the infamous plague. They engaged ina war with the wraith in the Pegasus during their last hundred years there and eventually returned home to Earth.

Karec
March 12th, 2006, 11:10 AM
And thats just what I said....:rolleyes:


I was making a comment to the guy above me who have no clue.

"Ancients arent too smart and maybe that is why the Lantean had to split form them, the Alteran were passive, the Ori was too aggressive, but the Lantean seem to just want to explore but they would put up a fight if needed, even though they dont like to fight as much as we humans do."

No clue. He said they split up not me.

MarshAngel
March 12th, 2006, 11:50 AM
And thats just what I said....


I was making a comment to the guy above me who have no clue.


You were very unclear. Furthermore, sarcasm doesn't translate into writing very well.

thenimf
March 12th, 2006, 02:24 PM
"I thought of it in the same way but someone pointed out to me that the Ancients built things to last so the building could in fact be millions of years old. The ancients would have had to place the stargates in secure places otherwise a whole grand canyon could form under and around them in a few million years. Granted, the gate could easily be moved later but, a cliff overlooking the ocean would be a bad place to put a gate as erosion would eventually undermine the foundations if you're planning to leave it there for a long time. If the building were around for millions of years though, the ocean would have been much further away when it was originally placed. Point being, the building is probably not the best way to determine the age. The building could easily be older than its contents."

But I guess that's the thing, there's nothing to say that EVERYTHING that the Grandaddy races built was meant to last. Maybe the castle was a temporary outpost for them to learn to communicate?

MarshAngel
March 12th, 2006, 03:44 PM
A stone castle that is older than the pyramids isn't exactly what I'd call temporary.

I don't think the place was meant to be temporary. The ancients are members of an Intergalactic civilization and language is a wacky thing on the show...everyone speaks English but writes something else. :rolleyes: The only reason I can think of to write something so universally is to make sure it can be understood by many people when you're not around to translate. I'd hope that language would be a small thing when you can build flying cities.

My belief is the language in writing (not the hologram) is symbolic, like the flags at the UN. It indicates the different cultures involved while the information they wished to impart is in the universal language of science. Writing it the way they did removes any cultural bias any of their native languages may have imparted which is nice when you're dealing with "meaning of life" stuff.

Bragi
March 12th, 2006, 04:23 PM
They had tea every Sunday afternoon at two.

thenimf
March 12th, 2006, 04:38 PM
They had tea every Sunday afternoon at two.

I don't think the question of what they drank on whichever day matters? Also, was Sunday even recognized when the Alliance was up?

thenimf
March 12th, 2006, 09:17 PM
A stone castle that is older than the pyramids isn't exactly what I'd call temporary.

I don't think the place was meant to be temporary. The ancients are members of an Intergalactic civilization and language is a wacky thing on the show...everyone speaks English but writes something else. :rolleyes: The only reason I can think of to write something so universally is to make sure it can be understood by many people when you're not around to translate. I'd hope that language would be a small thing when you can build flying cities.

My belief is the language in writing (not the hologram) is symbolic, like the flags at the UN. It indicates the different cultures involved while the information they wished to impart is in the universal language of science. Writing it the way they did removes any cultural bias any of their native languages may have imparted which is nice when you're dealing with "meaning of life" stuff.

I disagree with the fundamental point of your post. I think that the castle was built to be a place where the races could learn about one another, but I doubt it was meant to be a place where they would meet regularly. Once they had developed strong ties and such, I doubt the castle was needed anymore, so in effect it was really a temporary place for them to get to know one another.

Though my point does sway to your second point, about the symbolism... however I think that it's also possible that it may be what those things meant to them after they worked out their langauge and such, and that until that point science and atoms were a fundamental form of communication, it's possible even that they used their own language in conjuction with the flying molecules in order to teach each other their own languages.

POW
March 14th, 2006, 03:00 AM
The Alliance of the 4 Great Races exsisited before the ancients left this Galaxy. Watch the episode the 5th Race the Asgard explains the ancients left this part of the galaxy long time ago. My guess would be after the Ancients left there home Galaxy they explore many other galaxies and thats how they meet the Asgaurs , Nox , & Furlings and eventully found Earth and established there home and explored our galaxy.
One thing that is not clear is where did the ancient diesease come from.!st assumption would be that it Was the Pre -ascended Ori that tried to launch an attack on the Ancients.Perhaps at some point the Ancients tried to make contact with there brothern in there home galaxy to try and make amends only to recive some sort of Trojan horse that overwhelmed them. The episode
WINDOW OF OPPORTUNITY seems to suggest whatever happened to the Ancients hit Hard and Fast at a specific time.

Prior_of_the_Ori
March 14th, 2006, 11:54 AM
Its entirely possible that the plague lasted for an extremely long period because Ayianna if you remember did not die quick from the plague, in fact from the way it looked its possible she could have survived a lot longer had she not been healing the SG teams there. So its possible that the pre ascended Ori infected the Alterans who fought long and hard but could not stop the plague. But if they made the alliance pre atlantis then it would mean they would have infected the nox and furlings as well so....

POW
March 15th, 2006, 08:36 AM
The plauge of the Ancients prob only affects humans. The Nox , Asgaurd and Furlings have diffrent phyisology than humans.It could be that the Ancients had a huge population in our Galaxy and the plague reduced there numbers until there was only a few and the unaffected Ancients isolated themselfs away from the others and then decided to leave our Galaxy.

LIGHT
March 15th, 2006, 12:02 PM
Well the nox are still alive, "we" could just go an ask them to tell us stories :P
Also The asguard are here sience the alterans were, i wonder why they dont have alteran tech, that could defeat the replicators fast..
It could'a been an allience like "u wont have any of my tech, we just help you with it"

Prodigalson
March 15th, 2006, 01:49 PM
Sorry, have to dissagree regarding the Great Alliance. It must have been formed after the Lantians came back from Pegusas, and here is why.

The alliance were the ancients, Furlings, Nox, Asgard.

The Asgard's home galaxy is in Ida, not here.

Thirty thousand years ago, the Asgard used "sleeper" ships for space travel and did not have hyperdrive. See Revelations, episode 522.

CARTER: What is it?

HEIMDALL: That is one of my ancestors. Thirty thousand years ago a ship was launched from the Asgard homeworld, its crew placed in suspended animation. There was a failure on the navigational system and the ship was lost. Through the millenia it drifted across the empty expanse between our galaxies before it arrived here. We discovered it six months ago.

If the Asgard were using sleeper ships 30,000 years ago, and also were human form at that time, they were far to primitive 5 million years ago to be able to deal on the level with the ancients.

Therefore, given that the Asgard were members of the alliance, and also that they most likely only developed intergalactic hyperdrive within the last 30K years, the alliance must have been after the ancients return from Pegasus, unless there were ancients here during that time. Therefore the Alliance probably occured around 10K years ago.

Also, someone was mentioned trying to stick a time on the alliance based on the level of the apparent tech of the castle in that episode. However, in the Episode Camelot, merlin was obviously using an very old control mechanism (see Window of Opportunity, or Reckoning part 2). I think that they used various control devices depending on who may find it. If in an environment they were confortable with (Atlantis) they used advanced types. If in a premitive location (camelot etc..) they used a type that didn't look as advanced.).

Anyway, just my 2 cents.

OriWillKillUsAll
March 16th, 2006, 05:02 AM
Using that reasoning, it is implied that there was still some cohesive group of ancients left around 10000 years ago with viable space travel tech (or control of the Stargate). Perhaps Atlantis remnants who enlisted allies to fight against the Goa'uld infestation they encountered when they returned to the MW.

MarshAngel
March 16th, 2006, 10:40 AM
Using that reasoning, it is implied that there was still some cohesive group of ancients left around 10000 years ago with viable space travel tech (or control of the Stargate). Perhaps Atlantis remnants who enlisted allies to fight against the Goa'uld infestation they encountered when they returned to the MW.
Well yes.

We already know there were Ancients around. whether they were a cohesive group or not is open to question but there were Ancients who informed the Greeks and Romans about Atlantis and taught them how to build roads. There were ancients, like Merlin, in England. There were ancients, Janus possibly, who traveled to other planets and built a second puddle jumper time machine.

Whether they fought the Goa'uld or not is unknown but they were definitely around influencing events and building some, however little tech. The Asgard were also visiting the Norse people in the last ten thousand years so they may have come across Ancients at any point.

Karec
March 16th, 2006, 11:28 AM
Quite possible but also remeber that there's at least one stargate in the asgard home world and one on almost every planet in the MW. The anceints chould have supplied them with power long ago and let them travel to us here.

If im correct then the gate in their galaxy looks the same as ours which whould mean a close time laps from where they we're built.

Just my 2 cents:cameron:

thenimf
March 19th, 2006, 04:10 PM
1. Intergalactic power source
2. I think the Asgard BYO Stargate's?
3. Nothing to suggest the Ancients didn't explore Ida a long time ago and even have a small colony there too. It's possible that they scouted various different galaxies before settling in Pegasus. Makes sense... checking real estate and super villain trends.

POW
March 20th, 2006, 07:30 PM
Sorry, have to dissagree regarding the Great Alliance. It must have been formed after the Lantians came back from Pegusas, and here is why.

The alliance were the ancients, Furlings, Nox, Asgard.

The Asgard's home galaxy is in Ida, not here.

Thirty thousand years ago, the Asgard used "sleeper" ships for space travel and did not have hyperdrive. See Revelations, episode 522.

CARTER: What is it?

HEIMDALL: That is one of my ancestors. Thirty thousand years ago a ship was launched from the Asgard homeworld, its crew placed in suspended animation. There was a failure on the navigational system and the ship was lost. Through the millenia it drifted across the empty expanse between our galaxies before it arrived here. We discovered it six months ago.

If the Asgard were using sleeper ships 30,000 years ago, and also were human form at that time, they were far to primitive 5 million years ago to be able to deal on the level with the ancients.

Therefore, given that the Asgard were members of the alliance, and also that they most likely only developed intergalactic hyperdrive within the last 30K years, the alliance must have been after the ancients return from Pegasus, unless there were ancients here during that time. Therefore the Alliance probably occured around 10K years ago.

Also, someone was mentioned trying to stick a time on the alliance based on the level of the apparent tech of the castle in that episode. However, in the Episode Camelot, merlin was obviously using an very old control mechanism (see Window of Opportunity, or Reckoning part 2). I think that they used various control devices depending on who may find it. If in an environment they were confortable with (Atlantis) they used advanced types. If in a premitive location (camelot etc..) they used a type that didn't look as advanced.).

Anyway, just my 2 cents.

This is a good point you have made howevere I am aware of this before I posted. Just because the Asgaurd put there ppl in In sleeper chambers does not mean they did not have hyperdrives. Ther are 2 types of hyeprdrives Interstellar and Intergalactic. Perhaps the Asgaurd Did not have the Fast intergalatic hyperdives at this time so when traveling between galaxies long distance they had to sleep. It just seems that 10,000 ago would be kinda of rushed for an alliance time wise. Unless it was a last effort of the Ancients to share thier knowlafge before they Ascended to higher Plane with other worthy Races.

thenimf
March 20th, 2006, 08:02 PM
It just seems that 10,000 ago would be kinda of rushed for an alliance time wise. Unless it was a last effort of the Ancients to share thier knowlafge before they Ascended to higher Plane with other worthy Races.

That seems very likely to me actually. Though I'd say more because it was a dying race... kinda like the Asgard for us now.

MarshAngel
March 21st, 2006, 05:02 AM
That seems very likely to me actually. Though I'd say more because it was a dying race... kinda like the Asgard for us now.
I agree. We also have an alliance of sorts with the Asgard and that's been for less than a decade. So imagine how much we could accomplish in just fifty or a hundred years.

If I had to speculate, I'd say the ancients were leaving. They took note of how far the Asgard had come and basically gave them the duty they normally would have had if they'd been around; watch over the humans. It also gave them an opportunity to show the Asgard, and the others, what humans could become, just in case they weren't that impressed with us at the time.

Wedo765
March 23rd, 2006, 10:16 PM
If I had to speculate, I'd say the ancients were leaving. They took note of how far the Asgard had come and basically gave them the duty they normally would have had if they'd been around; watch over the humans. It also gave them an opportunity to show the Asgard, and the others, what humans could become, just in case they weren't that impressed with us at the time.

I like this idea, but I think it woulda happened as the Ancients in Atlantis where leaving to escape the Plague, the Alliance probaly exsisted before and up to that point, heres what I think:

The Alterans traveled for "thousands of years" and came across our whole Galactic Cluster here, when they arrived they found three, fairly advanced, yet not as advanced as them, cultures in neighboring Galaxies, maybe the most advanced in their respective Galaxies, the Nox, the Asgard, & the Furlings, from the Asgard (who have been sending exploratory sleeper ships here for years) they learn our galaxy is fairly uninhabited, just a few primitive species at the time, they leave a Stargate in each of the other Galaxies so the other three races can reach them, and the Alterans first order of business is to start the network when they get here, probably first on Earth then the Heilos meetin place, and so on. Then the plague sweeps through, the Ancients either die, Ascend, or leave with Atlantis, but tell the Asgard to be ready cause they'll be Humans arising again one day, and then time plays out, the Nox end up leaving their Galaxy and settleing here (although it should be pointed out that theres no way to no if that world was their home or just a colony, and their city looked like it was capable of Interseller travel...like Atlantis) the Furling disappear, and the Asgard continue to send their sleeper ships to keep tabs on this galaxy, and chill for the next 5 million years, plus promising to keep an eye on use would explian why they felt it was nesscary to protect some world from the Goa'uld

2ndgenerationalteran
March 23rd, 2006, 10:53 PM
i say the alliance we forged very strongly but after the departure of the ancients it resembles my band doenst do much but can say they are a part of it.

bniblett
March 27th, 2006, 08:13 PM
were the nox around when the plague struck this galaxy?

if so, they weren't in this galaxy when the ancients used their weapon to eleminate all living matter. either the nox came to this galaxy after that point, or they knew the ancients for a LONG time, and the ancients helped them leave or they helped themselves leave while the blastin was a happenin.

and OBVIOUSLY came back here.

or they never called up that gate to send the weapon through, but i doubt if they were going to destroy life in an ENTIRE galaxy, they would leave one trace of it there.

thenimf
March 27th, 2006, 10:56 PM
were the nox around when the plague struck this galaxy?

if so, they weren't in this galaxy when the ancients used their weapon to eleminate all living matter. either the nox came to this galaxy after that point, or they knew the ancients for a LONG time, and the ancients helped them leave or they helped themselves leave while the blastin was a happenin.

and OBVIOUSLY came back here.

or they never called up that gate to send the weapon through, but i doubt if they were going to destroy life in an ENTIRE galaxy, they would leave one trace of it there.

Wouldn't it be ironic if the NOX turned out to be machines?

MarshAngel
March 28th, 2006, 06:52 AM
Wouldn't it be ironic if the NOX turned out to be machines?
It would be ironic but mostly it would be awesome. I love that idea. So many many possibilities.