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shiznaw
March 11th, 2006, 11:04 AM
The following was quoted prior:

First come the The Goa'uld were bad, but they were interesting. The whole symbiote things was interesting.. and it made for a cheap enemy too, because it was an alien in a human body and not for silly Star Trek "everybody is human" reasons. Granted, the comic book bad guy dialogue did make the Goa'uld a little cheesy, but really, all in all they were O.K.

Next, The Replicators were also bad, and they were SOMEWHAT interesting. Legos with attitude aren't that scary, but they weren't a virtual copy of the Goa'uld.

Next, we get the "new and improved" Apophis in Season 8. He takes over a larger kingdom. He has bigger ships. He has more troops. He's worse, but there's no great creativity there. He's just "System Lord" 2.0.

Then we have "worse than the Goa'uld" in the form of Anubis-Ascended. The whole "half ascended" bit was supposed to make him scarier, but really he was the same as any other Goa'uld in motives. He still had to gloat. He still had to dominate others in much the same way. Not until the end, in "Threads" when he wanted to destroy all life in the galaxy and start over did Anubis really differentiate himself from other Goa'uld. Sure, he had "worse" warriors than Jaffa, but they weren't very interesting. Sure, he had slightly more tech than other Goa'uld, but really, is slightly better tech anything other than just more of the same? Anubis is "System Lord" 3.0.

Then we have the human-form Replicators. They still want to do the same thing as regular Replicators, but they add a comic book villain element too. Now we can talk to them. Other than that? Not so differernt. These are Replicators 2.0. But they aren't bad enough, so we need to personalize it more. We create history between Carter and Fifth, and now he has a personal grudge against SG1 and humanity in general. Replicator 3.0. Still not enough, let's personalize it some more with a RepliCarter, who is about as personalized as you can get. Replicator 4.0. More of the same. Just "crank up the volume".

For Stargate Atlantis, we have the Wraith, who are a lot like the Goa'uld. The Goa'uld use humanity as unwilling hosts and slaves, while the Wraith use thumanity as unwilling food. Both the Goa'uld and the Wraith have unnatural regenerative powers, and through either nature or technology live forever. Both use the same comic book villain lines. Both are more technologically advanced than humanity. Both rule large swaths of their respective galaxies. Both are dependent upon humanity for their very lives (the Goa'uld as hosts, the Wraith as food). In order to make the Wraith "worse than" the Goa'uld, instead of space enslavers, they are space vampires. So really, in a lot of ways, it is just more of the same.

Now, in season nine, we have the Ori. "Worse than the Goa'uld" we are told. But really, aren't they just another form of ascended being just like Anubis but? Shouldn't they be calling it "Worse than Anubis"?

It seems to me, rather than concentrating on making an enemy "worse than" the predecessor enemy, a more INTERESTING enemy would be a good idea. This whole "Worse Than" craze really is no way to drive a series. Interesting is a lot more important than "worse than".

Tone
March 11th, 2006, 12:02 PM
You have to much time on your hands :p to be thinking all about your reasons there..

It is after all only TV

sushiman
March 11th, 2006, 12:09 PM
I thought stargate pretty much was a comic book in tv series form. which im fine with. i enjoy comic books.

Skydiver
March 11th, 2006, 12:15 PM
more interesting would be more fun.

personally? nuby was a joke. he was a cheesy baddie and i found baal to be far more threatening (at least until ex deus machina and the stupidity there)

i still find baal kinda interesting since he's more multi-faceted. you never quite knowwhere you stand with him.

the Ori? no matter what we do with the Ori, we'll lose

we kill them and we'll have planets and planets full of peopel ticked off at us. we kill their followers, well that just makes us mass murderers killing people for believing in 'bad' gods

we'll never convert the believers, their belief is too deeply engrained

no matter what we do, we lose. we're in an unwinnable war

tomchris45
March 11th, 2006, 12:22 PM
All I have to say to that is... what would you suggest?

Can you post a reply, which details an "Interesting" apponent. Who would be cheap to create (unless of course, as well as posting an interesting bad guy, you also have tonnes of cash to create this), based on budgets.

Also you say they're not interesting, or are just the same thing over and over again. But hey your still here 9/10 years later. Some thing must have sparked your interest. Or have you been watching for the hell of it?

Skydiver
March 11th, 2006, 01:05 PM
for interesting we need motivation. concrete motivation. heck, even with the ori we only have daniel's and orlin's word that they're bad. we can't prove it.

the lucian alliance are interesting...kinda farscapy and andormedy esque space pirates, but they are interesting. they have potential to be both good and bad, which lends an uncertainty to dealing with them. You never know what they'll do for sure

teh Ori?

they're good, we're bad, we must worship or die.

so all we can do is try to out-tech the near omiscient beings....didn't the asgard try that with the Replicators? Failed quite spectacularly.

if there is no way to really win, then it's simply an exercise in futility and we, as earth, are put in the position of telling people that they're worshipping the wrong gods and that they're not gonna get ascended (go to heaven) but will just die...but we can't prove it so take our word for it.

It's like Wargames, there is no way to win this game. Even if we defeat the Ori we will still lose because people will hate us for killing thier gods because we have no way to prove that the Ori aren't gods.

PG15
March 11th, 2006, 07:02 PM
Just because you can't think of a solution doesn't mean there isn't one.

And you like the Lucian Alliance? What can they do? Launch a few Hataks at us? Been there and done that. Besides, they don't seem have any qualms with Earth, they're more just "out there".

Pretty boring if you ask me.

Skydiver
March 11th, 2006, 07:21 PM
i didn't say that i particularly liked them, but at least they bring an air of unpredictibility to the table. unpredictibility can make things interesting. the Ori steadfast dogma is predictible. and i find that predictibility boring

the ori hate us and want to kill us simply because we don't believe the way they think we should behave. and i doubt there's anything out there that'll change thier minds, just as there's no way we can prove that they're bad.

PG15
March 11th, 2006, 07:47 PM
Not no way. We have already seen that there are some people in the Ori galaxy that don't trust the Ori. We just need many more of them.

At the end these worshippers are still human, and, even if it takes something super-drastic (I don't know what, blowing up a galaxy?), they can be convinced. Somehow.

Even if the Lucian Alliance is unpredictable, there's a limit to their power. Fact is they control a few dozen Goa'uld ships, and as such would probably never pose considerable threat, at least not as much as the Ori.

walterIsTheMan
March 11th, 2006, 07:51 PM
shiznaw I think you meant "new and improved Anubis" in Season Eight. Apophis is way dead, there's no way he got out of that one.

Dani347
March 11th, 2006, 07:58 PM
Setting aside my theological objections to the Ori, I really prefer the Goa'uld (minus that bag of dirty laundry known as Anubis) as villians. I still say that there's nothing more insidious as what the Goa'uld do. The Ori kill you. It might be horrible while it lasts, but than, you're dead. And, yes, the Ori can bring you back, but it seems like they would only do that if they thought that it would convince you that they are gods. If they saw that didn't work, you'd probably die and stay dead, and then at least as far as they're concerned, your problems are over. But, to watch yourself committing attrocities, sometimes to your nearest and dearest and to have no control and also to have no hope that it will at least end when you die, that's horribly devastating. And, equally as devastating to watch your loved ones committing the acts if you're not the one who's a host. Even if the Goa'uld is removed, I can imagine a lot of ongoing psychological damage from both sides.

After the Goa'uld, I found Replicarter a pretty interesting villian (as long as I ignore the actions of everyone else in Gemini). At least AT played her interestingly. The battle of wills between her and Daniel in Reckoning 2 couldn't have been as powerful if both parties weren't forces to be reckoned (heh) with.

For me, it's not how powerful an enemy is (although an enemy has to be powerful, because I think the heroes should start off as the underdogs) that really says how interesting they are. So, for me, what a villian can do is part of it, but that's not the main question I ask when I decide what makes an interesting villian.

Also, except for the clones, I find Ba'al is still interesting even if he's not doing the same things he did in the days of Goa'uld power. He's still sneaky and seductive and evil. Very interesting combinations even without a flanged voice (but I still prefer the flanged voice).

Twinsen
March 11th, 2006, 08:17 PM
I'm not that creative a person myself, but I was hoping that shiznaw would at least present a possible villain that just point out similarities between the different villains of Stargate.

I see a complaint of no resurgence of originality, yet nary a solution to the perceived problem is offered. "Why would you want Half-Life 2 when someone already made Doom, it's just FPS 9.0?"

I don't mean to sound hostile, and if it comes that way I am sorry, I just like reading solutions to more than what seems to be a rant.

Dani347
March 11th, 2006, 08:29 PM
Sometimes, and I don't know if this is the case, a person can perceive a problem, but they don't necessarily have a solution.

Now, if I didn't just want the Ori to be gone period, I would say a way of making them more interesting would either to make it personal (which is why, imo, Apophis still tops the list of best villians) or to individualize them and have the actors playing them just be interesting in their portrayals. I know some people see the Goa'uld as all the same, bad flashy dressers who want power, but to me there are extreme differences between Apophis and Ba'al. If Apophis was alive, I can't imagine him adapting his villiany to suit the times, the way Ba'al does. Would Apophis ever admit that he wasn't really a god? I doubt it. I also see Khalek as having been different from both Ba'al and Apophis (and he had more personality than his dry cleaned papa) But, so far my impression is the Ori are really all the same. They think the same, they act the same, they talk the same -through the priors. What one wants, they all want, and the methods that one uses to get what they want, is the method they all use.

the fifth man
March 11th, 2006, 09:58 PM
Personally, I'm liking the Ori so far as an enemy. I just can't wait for us to actually engage some of their warriors in battle on the ground. It would be cool to see a Prior leading the attack, as well. And in season 10, we will get a human version of the Ori. Adria, Vala's daughter . That should be cool IMO.

Nintendos-neutrinos
March 11th, 2006, 11:14 PM
The Ori remind me of the Dominion in Star Trek: DS9, a mass of individual, yet collective, evil bad guys ... be it the 'great link' of shapeshifters or a bunch of ascended beings ...

You know who were the best villains in SG-1? The Aschen. Sinister, but you'd never know it because of all the cool tech they openly provided ... then, when you realize you're in deep doo doo, it's too late, because they got you.

PS I thought they were going to make the Aschen arc a trilogy. I'm still waiting for the third episode.

Too bad you can't make the Ori sterile.

Pharaoh Atem
March 12th, 2006, 07:29 AM
i think it's great that the ori are so powerful the gou'lud looked strong to use at first but thats beofre we started toi make advancements in tech.

now juts the same thing with the ori our tech needs to catch up to fight them and we'll be all set

Peoples_General
March 12th, 2006, 07:37 AM
i think it's great that the ori are so powerful the gou'lud looked strong to use at first but thats beofre we started toi make advancements in tech.

now juts the same thing with the ori our tech needs to catch up to fight them and we'll be all set

So... make leaps in technology? In other words, reach the Ancient's level of tech? And how many seasons would that take?

FallenAngelII
March 12th, 2006, 07:42 AM
The following was quoted prior:

First come the The Goa'uld were bad, but they were interesting. The whole symbiote things was interesting.. and it made for a cheap enemy too, because it was an alien in a human body and not for silly Star Trek "everybody is human" reasons. Granted, the comic book bad guy dialogue did make the Goa'uld a little cheesy, but really, all in all they were O.K.

Next, The Replicators were also bad, and they were SOMEWHAT interesting. Legos with attitude aren't that scary, but they weren't a virtual copy of the Goa'uld.

Next, we get the "new and improved" Apophis in Season 8. He takes over a larger kingdom. He has bigger ships. He has more troops. He's worse, but there's no great creativity there. He's just "System Lord" 2.0.

Then we have "worse than the Goa'uld" in the form of Anubis-Ascended. The whole "half ascended" bit was supposed to make him scarier, but really he was the same as any other Goa'uld in motives. He still had to gloat. He still had to dominate others in much the same way. Not until the end, in "Threads" when he wanted to destroy all life in the galaxy and start over did Anubis really differentiate himself from other Goa'uld. Sure, he had "worse" warriors than Jaffa, but they weren't very interesting. Sure, he had slightly more tech than other Goa'uld, but really, is slightly better tech anything other than just more of the same? Anubis is "System Lord" 3.0.

Then we have the human-form Replicators. They still want to do the same thing as regular Replicators, but they add a comic book villain element too. Now we can talk to them. Other than that? Not so differernt. These are Replicators 2.0. But they aren't bad enough, so we need to personalize it more. We create history between Carter and Fifth, and now he has a personal grudge against SG1 and humanity in general. Replicator 3.0. Still not enough, let's personalize it some more with a RepliCarter, who is about as personalized as you can get. Replicator 4.0. More of the same. Just "crank up the volume".

For Stargate Atlantis, we have the Wraith, who are a lot like the Goa'uld. The Goa'uld use humanity as unwilling hosts and slaves, while the Wraith use thumanity as unwilling food. Both the Goa'uld and the Wraith have unnatural regenerative powers, and through either nature or technology live forever. Both use the same comic book villain lines. Both are more technologically advanced than humanity. Both rule large swaths of their respective galaxies. Both are dependent upon humanity for their very lives (the Goa'uld as hosts, the Wraith as food). In order to make the Wraith "worse than" the Goa'uld, instead of space enslavers, they are space vampires. So really, in a lot of ways, it is just more of the same.

Now, in season nine, we have the Ori. "Worse than the Goa'uld" we are told. But really, aren't they just another form of ascended being just like Anubis but? Shouldn't they be calling it "Worse than Anubis"?

It seems to me, rather than concentrating on making an enemy "worse than" the predecessor enemy, a more INTERESTING enemy would be a good idea. This whole "Worse Than" craze really is no way to drive a series. Interesting is a lot more important than "worse than".

But when you look at it, AREN'T they ALSO "more interesting than"? First there were the Goa'uld. Then we learned more about them and how they're not just delusional megalomaniacs, giving us personas such as Ba'al.

Then came the Replicaters, once mindless machines, later smart and evil... Carter, Anubis, evil half-descended-ascended being and now the Ori, crazy ascended beings enslaving and destroying worlds.

It's not just "Random bad guy of the season" whose background and stuff we only learn of in apendices and small paragrafs in reference books and stuff. Stargate is not comic booky and it's not just "Worse than...".

And the Wraith are much more than mere space vampires. "Condemned", "Instinct", "Michael" and "Allies" taught us a lot about them.

Skydiver
March 12th, 2006, 08:59 AM
Replicarter was a fantastic villian. Largely because we knew her motivation. to surivive. To have her brethern survive. That was why she did what she die.

Pops, yeah, even understood pops' motivation. And after Serpents Song, when we got to see the poor host, it gave pops a bit more depth.

Nuby? Nuby was a joke. Plain and simple. He was OTT silliness.

Ba'al, well y eah, the clone angle was stupid, but until that point, Ba'al was far more sinister than Nuby and all his grand plans.

The Wraith, in the beginnign they were silly. They were nothing more than blue skinned vampires. But this season we have gotten a different look at them and they are a ton more interesting. And for just the eps that Fifth said. Condemned, Instsinct, Michael and Allies.

To me, the only way the Ori will be anything more than boring men in silly makup is if they give them more depth than 'we want all the power' duh, hello, who doesn't want power? that's always the villian's motivation. Care to give us something more?

Amanda Eros
March 12th, 2006, 09:21 AM
Not no way. We have already seen that there are some people in the Ori galaxy that don't trust the Ori. We just need many more of them.

At the end these worshippers are still human, and, even if it takes something super-drastic (I don't know what, blowing up a galaxy?), they can be convinced. Somehow.


It would seem that there are those who don't believe in the Orii in their galaxy, but they are basically powerless to do anything. Apparently the Priors have the ablity to sence doubt, or have some form of mind reading. (Though why the Prior in Avalon didn't kill Daniel and Vala's hosts long ago is beyond me. That and the one in Crusiade, why he didn't kill the barkeep and whore a long time ago, doesn't really make sence. Unless they had some type of plan that allowed them to stay alive until they had played their part. )

Anyway, they were able to stop the sabatoge against their ships, how successful can anyone else be? The Orii keep their people at the preindustrialzed state to control them and keep them ignorate. Unless they can find old weapons left over from when the Alterrens and the Orii were one race and convince others nothing will change because they will be killed the moment the Orii suspect anything. It's a depressing no win situation.

The only shread of hope is that Daniel will be able to convince Vala's super baby that the Orii are bad and that she has to go and convince the priors that the Orii are bad. Though how long will it be before the Orii eliminate her as well if that course of action does take place.

Skydiver
March 12th, 2006, 09:40 AM
At the end these worshippers are still human, and, even if it takes something super-drastic (I don't know what, blowing up a galaxy?), they can be convinced. Somehow.



i don't think so. these people are fanatics. they will literally DIE before they listen to someone else. they are 100000% indoctrinated into believing that the Ori are gods.

they will not have changes of heart. They do not doubt. They are totally devoted to thier belief and will not change. That is the futility of fighting the Ori. To get to them you have to wade through countless thousands of believers. or if you kill the Ori, then you have all those believers mad at you for killing their gods. There is no way to win and there is nothing that can be done to change these folks' minds.

thus is the nature of the fanatic.

Hybridbabe
March 12th, 2006, 10:16 AM
or if you kill the Ori, then you have all those believers mad at you for killing their gods. There is no way to win and there is nothing that can be done to change these folks' minds.

thus is the nature of the fanatic.

Not only will they be mad at you, but it'll further cement their beliefs: by killing off their gods or their Gods' mesengers, you make the ones you executed "martyrs", and people will be even more devout than ever before.

Skydiver
March 12th, 2006, 10:18 AM
and you're back to a lose/lose situation because no matter what you show these folks as proof, they won't believe you.

Hybridbabe
March 12th, 2006, 10:20 AM
and you're back to a lose/lose situation because no matter what you show these folks as proof, they won't believe you.

Which effectively makes us screwed. ;)

Skydiver
March 12th, 2006, 10:24 AM
Which effectively makes us screwed. ;)
yeah, and if vala is any indication, we're screwed but didn't get to have any fun

it does set the ori up as maybe TOO unbeatable. so when earth triumphs it'll be something rather anticlimactic and contrived to get them out of the corner they've written themselves into

Karec
March 12th, 2006, 10:34 AM
Has NO ONE here realised the Ori weakness yet?!:rolleyes:
The writers *Mumbles*Blessed are their names*Mumbles* are gonna pull a goa'uld defet on them again:D There is a resistance movement, Earth has reached the goa'uld's technology level at least enough to fight them of so their no threat anymore so the writers made the ori. Now with merlins weapon and alittle japping and **** every soldier is gonna turn against the Ori and there goes their power source.

They will probably also find more evidance of the ori's poeples past.

Skydiver
March 12th, 2006, 10:54 AM
it's easy to turn folks when you say 'this is a fake god. defeat him and you won't have to slave in the mines'

it's a bit harder when you're saying 'your gods are fake. oh and heaven? ya ain't gonna get there, so sorry'

the people don't see how they've been enslaved so they have nothing to rebel against other than praying a few less hours a day

PG15
March 12th, 2006, 01:42 PM
i don't think so. these people are fanatics. they will literally DIE before they listen to someone else. they are 100000% indoctrinated into believing that the Ori are gods.

they will not have changes of heart. They do not doubt. They are totally devoted to thier belief and will not change. That is the futility of fighting the Ori. To get to them you have to wade through countless thousands of believers. or if you kill the Ori, then you have all those believers mad at you for killing their gods. There is no way to win and there is nothing that can be done to change these folks' minds.

thus is the nature of the fanatic.

Nice that you forgot to quote the part where I said that THERE ARE ALREADY UNBELIEVERS.

If they were such fanatics, why would there be unbelievers?


It would seem that there are those who don't believe in the Orii in their galaxy, but they are basically powerless to do anything. Apparently the Priors have the ablity to sence doubt, or have some form of mind reading. (Though why the Prior in Avalon didn't kill Daniel and Vala's hosts long ago is beyond me. That and the one in Crusiade, why he didn't kill the barkeep and whore a long time ago, doesn't really make sence. Unless they had some type of plan that allowed them to stay alive until they had played their part. )

Anyway, they were able to stop the sabatoge against their ships, how successful can anyone else be? The Orii keep their people at the preindustrialzed state to control them and keep them ignorate. Unless they can find old weapons left over from when the Alterrens and the Orii were one race and convince others nothing will change because they will be killed the moment the Orii suspect anything. It's a depressing no win situation.

The only shread of hope is that Daniel will be able to convince Vala's super baby that the Orii are bad and that she has to go and convince the priors that the Orii are bad. Though how long will it be before the Orii eliminate her as well if that course of action does take place.

See, even when you say the situation is hopeless, you come up with 2 solutions. Not easy solutions mind you, but none of them are.

Skydiver
March 12th, 2006, 02:36 PM
of course there are unbelievers.

but when the unbelievers are what? maybe 5% of the population and are killed when discovered i don't see much potential for a viable form of resistence.

what you would need is 90% of a population to be unbelievers...but when the ori find that, they kill EVERYONE rather than have unbelievers around to spread thier point of view.

like they did on the jaffa planet, like they did with the sodan, like they tried to do with the folks on vala's planet, like they tried to do with earth

and they rarely kill by themselves, they engineer somethng to do it. a disease, a zombie, a third party that can take the blame instead of someone watching a prior massacre a village of women and children.

they kill everyone, then spin the truth to mean what they want it to mean

and again, how can you prove that the Ori are responsible for the bad things when they rarely commit the atrocities themselves? and without proof, how do the fanatical believers change thier minds? presuming, of course, that the ori don't get wind of what is going on and engineer a nice plague to take care of the issue for them

PG15
March 12th, 2006, 02:48 PM
I have no idea, but I know it's not impossible.

There is no such a thing as a no-win situation, at least that's what I think.

Uber
March 12th, 2006, 02:49 PM
yeah, and if vala is any indication, we're screwed but didn't get to have any fun

it does set the ori up as maybe TOO unbeatable. so when earth triumphs it'll be something rather anticlimactic and contrived to get them out of the corner they've written themselves intoThat is so seriously on target Skydiver. Horriblyevilsuperduperbaddies without the depth and development that makes a bad guy or bad guys interesting and compelling.

Part of the coolness of Apophis's evilness was the Amonet story which tied him into Shaure and thusly Daniel. There were many layers to his personna beyond the typical "he's evil" schtick...Serpent's Song and The Devil You Know and gave all kinds of insight into his motivations and allowed us to delve more into who he was...so did Family and Enemies for that matter.

Auralis
March 12th, 2006, 02:53 PM
I have no idea, but I know it's not impossible.

There is no such a thing as a no-win situation, at least that's what I think.

Sure there is, spontane example, a large object on collision curse with earh, say
a black hole. there would be absolutly nothing we can do. it is no-win whatever we try to do, since we can't do anything to save us.
We can't destroy it, nor we can run away.

Same way are the ori setup, we can't kill them, nor can we run realy away since they come to us.

Uber
March 12th, 2006, 02:58 PM
Sure there is, spontane example, a large object on collision curse with earh, say
a black hole. there would be absolutly nothing we can do. it is no-win whatever we try to do, since we can't do anything to save us.
We can't destroy it, nor we can run away.

Same way are the ori setup, we can't kill them, nor can we run realy away since they come to us.Well actually, SG-1's handled both of those scenarios already.

Large object on collision course with Earth...Fail Safe. SG-1 extended the hyperspace envelope around the astroid and essentially flew through Earth.

Black hole...Matter of Time. SG-1 uses a shape charge to redirect the wormhole connecting Earth with the planet next to the black hole, thus causing the matter stream to jump to a different gate in the network.

Auralis
March 12th, 2006, 03:03 PM
except that where both times vastly different scenarios from the one i stated, they are not even close to comparable.

PG15
March 12th, 2006, 04:30 PM
Well, you've pretty much just combined the 2 effects.

I don't think it's impossible to get rid of it...I wonder what would happen if we parked a supergate (that's obviously bigger than the black hole) in front of it...will it suck the gate in, or would it go through the gate? If the actual gate is far enough away from the event horizon of the blackhole, then won't it just go through the gate?

Failing that, we can set up a time dilation device around it, and speed up time, and hope that that Hawkin Radiation thing would hurry the hell up.

The fact is, when you're dealing with a techno problem, technobabble pretty much solves everything. It's far from a no-win situation.

Auralis
March 12th, 2006, 06:58 PM
Hrmm, i think i did made it clear what i meaned, my fault.
I meaned, us, this earth, now, like no stargate, just us peasants here on the ground.

PG15
March 12th, 2006, 07:29 PM
Oh ok.

Well then, nevermind. :P (I still don't think there's a no-win situation, but then maybe I'm just naive...or I don't think a blackhole will be heading for us in the near future ;))

JUNIOR
March 12th, 2006, 07:55 PM
it's easy to turn folks when you say 'this is a fake god. defeat him and you won't have to slave in the mines'

it's a bit harder when you're saying 'your gods are fake. oh and heaven? ya ain't gonna get there, so sorry' the people don't see how they've been enslaved so they have nothing to rebel against other than praying a few less hours a day


But these aren't your traditional "gods" in a sense because they make their power known via the Prior. If the Ori are defeated then there goes the prior's power and in time their influence. We already know that their followers are driven to commit sin in order to have to something to confess and pray for forgiveness to the Ori. Their also a small resistance that comes into play they could grow if the Ori weren't in the picture and challenge the Priors which would be reduced to mostly old men with cool looking sticks. If you just kill the Ori go to through the supergate and beam up all their SG's, ships, and any other tech then they'll be stuck in medieval times problem solved it and won't matter how mad they are at us because they won't be able to do anything about it because they'll be stuck in a galaxy far far away and by the time they get advanced enough to do anything about it the inhabitants of the Milky Way will probably be more advanced or Ascended.

travis
March 12th, 2006, 08:07 PM
Personally, I'm liking the Ori so far as an enemy. I just can't wait for us to actually engage some of their warriors in battle on the ground. It would be cool to see a Prior leading the attack, as well. And in season 10, we will get a human version of the Ori. Adria, Vala's daughter . That should be cool IMO.
Same here

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The Ori remind me of the Dominion in Star Trek: DS9, a mass of individual, yet collective, evil bad guys ... be it the 'great link' of shapeshifters or a bunch of ascended beings ...

You know who were the best villains in SG-1? The Aschen. Sinister, but you'd never know it because of all the cool tech they openly provided ... then, when you realize you're in deep doo doo, it's too late, because they got you.

PS I thought they were going to make the Aschen arc a trilogy. I'm still waiting for the third episode.

Too bad you can't make the Ori sterile.
I totally agree with you

I for one nevered liked the Goa'uld, for some reason I can never take them seriously. As for the Replicater loved them

To me villan's have two things in common, power and domination. Which villan is better comes down to individual's perspective for perception is human condition/nature. We either like them or hate them, but how they are portrayed and written will highly influence us.

Personally my favorite villan of all time(for now) will have to be Evil Willow from Buffy.

FallenAngelII
March 12th, 2006, 09:58 PM
Replicarter was a fantastic villian. Largely because we knew her motivation. to surivive. To have her brethern survive. That was why she did what she die.

Pops, yeah, even understood pops' motivation. And after Serpents Song, when we got to see the poor host, it gave pops a bit more depth.

Nuby? Nuby was a joke. Plain and simple. He was OTT silliness.

Ba'al, well y eah, the clone angle was stupid, but until that point, Ba'al was far more sinister than Nuby and all his grand plans.

The Wraith, in the beginnign they were silly. They were nothing more than blue skinned vampires. But this season we have gotten a different look at them and they are a ton more interesting. And for just the eps that Fifth said. Condemned, Instsinct, Michael and Allies.

To me, the only way the Ori will be anything more than boring men in silly makup is if they give them more depth than 'we want all the power' duh, hello, who doesn't want power? that's always the villian's motivation. Care to give us something more?

Did you just call me Fifth? XD

FallenAngelII
March 12th, 2006, 10:00 PM
From what the spoilers tells us, Adria is just a shell, a husk, a vessel. At birth, she's nothing more than a child indoctrinated with Ori power, knowledge and propganda.

After all, she still feels love for her mother and is easily (relatively) swayed by her. Would some megalomaniac all-powerful Ori be this way?

Sounds like Adria really is an oracle. There to speak for the Ori as a direct link and to maybe one day get possessed by random Ori who want to speak to us without bringing down the Wrath of the Others.

PG15
March 12th, 2006, 10:11 PM
Ack! Your spoiler code ain't working!

BnF95
March 12th, 2006, 11:51 PM
Well, so far, the best villain in the entire SG1 series, as far as I can remember was Senator/VP Robert Kinsey. Even before the Go'auld took over his body, he was doing all sorts of evil stuff.

Skydiver
March 13th, 2006, 04:36 AM
But these aren't your traditional "gods" in a sense because they make their power known via the Prior. If the Ori are defeated then there goes the prior's power and in time their influence. We already know that their followers are driven to commit sin in order to have to something to confess and pray for forgiveness to the Ori. Their also a small resistance that comes into play they could grow if the Ori weren't in the picture and challenge the Priors which would be reduced to mostly old men with cool looking sticks. If you just kill the Ori go to through the supergate and beam up all their SG's, ships, and any other tech then they'll be stuck in medieval times problem solved it and won't matter how mad they are at us because they won't be able to do anything about it because they'll be stuck in a galaxy far far away and by the time they get advanced enough to do anything about it the inhabitants of the Milky Way will probably be more advanced or Ascended.

so we kill the ori, leaving the priors powerless adn trigger countless bloody civil wars across untold thousands of planets but just shut our eyes to the carnage cause, you know, it's over there and doesn't concern us?

We de-god the poor people and then just let them fend for themselves and sort it out amongst themselves


real responsible

Lokii
March 13th, 2006, 05:44 AM
I think they have made the Ori out to be just a little too powerful. That battle sequence was a little too one sided.

MarshAngel
March 13th, 2006, 05:49 AM
so we kill the ori, leaving the priors powerless adn trigger countless bloody civil wars across untold thousands of planets but just shut our eyes to the carnage cause, you know, it's over there and doesn't concern us?

We de-god the poor people and then just let them fend for themselves and sort it out amongst themselves


real responsible

I don't know that killing the Ori would automatically mean civil war. Humans are adaptable. What I gathered from Crusade is that the people do not have immediate contact with the Ori. The Ori do not feed and clothe them or take care of their daily needs; in many ways they are just like God on Earth. The priors, robbed of any real power but very much indoctrinated would likely compensate by believing the Ori to be testing their faith. There are many religious leaders who lose their faith but they continue to lead, and direct other people with even more zeal than they did when they believed.

I don't think things would change much. They'd continue to pray, continue to believe until someone steps up and tests the theory... in other words they wouldn't be stuck in middle ages they'd grow up just like people on Earth have with all the growing pains involved. Change is usually painful, doesn't mean it should be avoided.

I think the concept of the Ori was a good one in theory. I like the general idea but I agree that they don't do good things for the show. They are too powerful to beaten by anything other than an equal power, in which case this isn't about humans at all and seeing as how we're the center of the show...not good. Defeating them will likely end the show and if it doesn't, then the show will lose credibility in the process.

Lokii
March 13th, 2006, 06:08 AM
The whole religious aspect of the Ori bothers me. I have to agree with those who think it is a bad theme to introduce.

Auralis
March 13th, 2006, 06:46 AM
so we kill the ori, leaving the priors powerless adn trigger countless bloody civil wars across untold thousands of planets but just shut our eyes to the carnage cause, you know, it's over there and doesn't concern us?

We de-god the poor people and then just let them fend for themselves and sort it out amongst themselves


real responsible

Right, would be better to chuck a dakara style weapon through the supergate after the ori killer weapon. Problem solved :)

Skydiver
March 13th, 2006, 06:53 AM
I don't know that killing the Ori would automatically mean civil war. Humans are adaptable. What I gathered from Crusade is that the people do not have immediate contact with the Ori. The Ori do not feed and clothe them or take care of their daily needs; in many ways they are just like God on Earth. The priors, robbed of any real power but very much indoctrinated would likely compensate by believing the Ori to be testing their faith. There are many religious leaders who lose their faith but they continue to lead, and direct other people with even more zeal than they did when they believed.

.
it may not automatically and immediately lead to civil war everywhere, but it will in some places. there are planets that have frequent visits by the priors. we've seen this. and we've also seen the 'petty dictator tosses in with the ori to gain power' characters.

well what happens when they lose their man behind the curtain and have to stand on their own? they'll be defeated. but as in many uprisings, only time will tell if the new rulers are better or worse than the Ori.

take the Canon from demons for example. he had a bit of power and used it to corruptly rule the town. Or take Pyrus from Need. he pretended to be a goa'uld to rule and enslave his people.
there isno easy fix it or cure for this. only decades and decades of petty cleanup and things will get tons worse before they get better. defeating the ori - which is somethign we mere mortals can't do, we'll stand aside while the other super powers do it for us - is going to do little more than destroy the infrastructure of countless thousands of planets

i'm not saying that the Ori are good, they're not. I"m just saying that we have so bitten of more than we can chew and that there is no way to win this.

Formerhost
March 13th, 2006, 07:04 AM
The whole religious aspect of the Ori bothers me. I have to agree with those who think it is a bad theme to introduce.

The opposite. It's fascinating theme to introduce, but it's extremely difficult one and it has to be done well. The beginning (season 9) did quite well, let's see what's next...

JUNIOR
March 13th, 2006, 10:58 AM
so we kill the ori, leaving the priors powerless adn trigger countless bloody civil wars across untold thousands of planets but just shut our eyes to the carnage cause, you know, it's over there and doesn't concern us?

We de-god the poor people and then just let them fend for themselves and sort it out amongst themselves


real responsible

BINGO!!! I'm sorry maybe I'm just being a very cold hearted person because its SciFi and not real life, but I wouldn’t give a rats a** about some people in a far off galaxy that given the chance, would kill me, everyone I care about, and anyone else that’s from where I'm from. They don't necessarily have to be left to fend for themselves one some back water planet. We can repay them for all of their hard work and effort in trying to defeat us by sending some of Ba’als clones and a fleet of Ha'taks over there through the Supergate. To put it as I would picture O’Neill saying it (If he felt this way): “They'll be slaves, and I'll be glad!" They think we’re evil; then let’s get a little evil!!! Hows that for responsible!! Just my evil a** opinion about the whole Ori worshipper situation, though feel free to totally disagree with me! P.S. lol, j/k

MarshAngel
March 13th, 2006, 11:59 AM
BINGO!!! I'm sorry maybe I'm just being a very cold hearted person because its SciFi and not real life, but I wouldn’t give a rats a** about some people in a far off galaxy that given the chance, would kill me, everyone I care about, and anyone else that’s from where I'm from. They don't necessarily have to be left to fend for themselves one some back water planet. We can repay them for all of their hard work and effort in trying to defeat us by sending some of Ba’als clones and a fleet of Ha'taks over there through the Supergate. To put it as I would picture O’Neill saying it (If he felt this way): “They'll be slaves, and I'll be glad!" They think we’re evil; then let’s get a little evil!!! Hows that for responsible!! Just my evil a** opinion about the whole Ori worshipper situation, though feel free to totally disagree with me! P.S. lol, j/k

I agree with you somewhat. Their gods are trying to kill us. If killing their gods prevents that, fine. I don't think we have any responsibility to them for any civil wars or complexities that may result. They are responsible for their own reactions and the actions that result. It's kind of like grabbing you kid out of the path out of oncoming traffic and being held responsible for the death of everyone else standing in the path.

Skydiver
March 13th, 2006, 12:25 PM
it's more along the line of...blowing up a hospital's power plant then saying that it's not your fault that all those people inside died because the machines don't work anymore

we have a lot of evidence that the Ancients were far from the nice sweet glowing aliens they are put forth to be. they experimented on beings, made a drug geared towards killing a whole species, yet we're blindly siding with them and we have no real proof that the Ori are evil. yeah, they kill whole planets that don't worship them. that is definitely not nice. yet it's no different from teh human philosophy of 'if you don't have any tech to share, to heck with you' attitude.

i'm not saying that the ori are good, but i'm saying that we have little more than one side of the story and daniel adn orlin's word that they're not ascending folks.

we are so far in over our heads that it's not even funny. we're meddling with stuff we shouldn't be meddling with. we are desperately trying to put the genie back in the bottle that daniel and vala loosed, and there's no way to do it.

MarshAngel
March 13th, 2006, 12:51 PM
it's more along the line of...blowing up a hospital's power plant then saying that it's not your fault that all those people inside died because the machines don't work anymore

I don't agree with that analogy because it's clear that they aren't dependent on the Ori. There is nothing the Ori give them that they cannot give themselves. And making us responsible for them going to war against each other is not giving them any responsibility for themselves.


we have a lot of evidence that the Ancients were far from the nice sweet glowing aliens they are put forth to be. they experimented on beings, made a drug geared towards killing a whole species, yet we're blindly siding with them and we have no real proof that the Ori are evil. yeah, they kill whole planets that don't worship them. that is definitely not nice. yet it's no different from teh human philosophy of 'if you don't have any tech to share, to heck with you' attitude.

The ancients are only as nice as we are because they are us with more tech. Sure they've been put on a pedestal but they are just as flawed as we are and the writers have a problem because they have to bring them down several notches to be relateable. We have this dream that in the future we're going to turn into wonderful loving, peaceful people. I don't think so. So they experiment on living beings, so do we, so do the Asgard etc.


i'm not saying that the ori are good, but i'm saying that we have little more than one side of the story and daniel adn orlin's word that they're not ascending folks.

There is no opportunity to sit on the fence and say well, we don't know which one of you is the bad guy in this war we're having. We trust in the ancients because well.... they're not trying to kill us. We aren't going to start worshipping them as if they're great and perfect or anything but we can't exactly back out of this one.


we are so far in over our heads that it's not even funny. we're meddling with stuff we shouldn't be meddling with. we are desperately trying to put the genie back in the bottle that daniel and vala loosed, and there's no way to do it.

We are over our heads but it's too late to fix that within the contect of the plot or for the show.

Franklyn Blaze
March 13th, 2006, 02:13 PM
The Ori remind me of the Dominion in Star Trek: DS9, a mass of individual, yet collective, evil bad guys ... be it the 'great link' of shapeshifters or a bunch of ascended beings ...

You know who were the best villains in SG-1? The Aschen. Sinister, but you'd never know it because of all the cool tech they openly provided ... then, when you realize you're in deep doo doo, it's too late, because they got you.

PS I thought they were going to make the Aschen arc a trilogy. I'm still waiting for the third episode.

Too bad you can't make the Ori sterile.

Totally Agree 100%

AutumnDream
March 13th, 2006, 02:39 PM
i still find baal kinda interesting since he's more multi-faceted.


You got that right. XD

shiznaw
March 13th, 2006, 04:53 PM
All I have to say to that is... what would you suggest?

Can you post a reply, which details an "Interesting" apponent. Who would be cheap to create (unless of course, as well as posting an interesting bad guy, you also have tonnes of cash to create this), based on budgets.

Also you say they're not interesting, or are just the same thing over and over again. But hey your still here 9/10 years later. Some thing must have sparked your interest. Or have you been watching for the hell of it?

First off, I apologize for not being around as of late. I've been busy working like a dog for the firm. Now for the responses:

The purpose of this thread was to ellicit debate centering around the apparent practice that the show has to establish some linear storyboard in which a new and bigger evil-doer has to be introduced every couple of seasons to keep or grow the fanbase. That's couldn't be further from the case. But now its become more evident as the almighty Ori takes Center Stage.

shiznaw
March 13th, 2006, 04:59 PM
All I have to say to that is... what would you suggest?

Can you post a reply, which details an "Interesting" apponent. Who would be cheap to create (unless of course, as well as posting an interesting bad guy, you also have tonnes of cash to create this), based on budgets.

Also you say they're not interesting, or are just the same thing over and over again. But hey your still here 9/10 years later. Some thing must have sparked your interest. Or have you been watching for the hell of it?

My point is why does the show's existence have to revolve around the bigger bad guy coming to a TV near you next season? The answer is that Stargate doesn't. It's a better quality show without the straw man fallacy...or at least it was.

Skydiver
March 13th, 2006, 05:08 PM
exactly. why do we have to keep making them bigger and badder? Yeah, ok so it would be lame if the newest bad guy was a 98 pound weakling with a killer chihauhaha as his sidekick :)

but more evil doesn't necessarily = bigger and badder. evil is incidious and those nasty beggers that sneak up on you, that don't appear to be so mean and cruel are often the best villians.

comparing baal and nuby for example.

nuby was like a james bond villian. always coming up with the more complex and super duper plan...which just made him look more and more silly as all his elaborate plans fell apart

baal on the other hand - before the unfortunate plot twist in ex deus machina - was a very good villian. he was quietly evil. no grand plans, no grandious gestures...just simple evilness

now, now he's a joke. a nice looking joke, but a joke nonetheless

CueBa'al
March 13th, 2006, 05:51 PM
The whole religious aspect of the Ori bothers me. I have to agree with those who think it is a bad theme to introduce.

I enjoy the religious themes, because it shows vividly just how dangerous organized religion is. These so called "organized religions", who in reality are nothing more than cults with political clout, are the last remaining major social obstacle our species has to contend with. The fact that religious extremists cannot be reasoned with, bargained with, or made to peacably lay down arms simply plays itself out not only on TV, but in reality. Why not poke a finger in the eye of these super-cults that call themselves "religion"?

JUNIOR
March 13th, 2006, 06:03 PM
it's more along the line of...blowing up a hospital's power plant then saying that it's not your fault that all those people inside died because the machines don't work anymore

we have a lot of evidence that the Ancients were far from the nice sweet glowing aliens they are put forth to be. they experimented on beings, made a drug geared towards killing a whole species, yet we're blindly siding with them and we have no real proof that the Ori are evil. yeah, they kill whole planets that don't worship them. that is definitely not nice. yet it's no different from teh human philosophy of 'if you don't have any tech to share, to heck with you' attitude.


Uh?...Wow!...Okay first off, if the Ori are killing whole planets for no reason except that the inhabitants don't want to worship the Ori as gods how is this not evil. Are you suggesting some sort of plot twist which involves some other force or a faction of the Ori here that are manipulating the collective Ori or falsely representing them? Also I don't see how comparing the human philosophy (I assume you mean the SGC, which if you do I don't think is the case) 'of if you don't have tech to share, to heck with you' attitude to the credo of the Ori: 'worship us or die'. ß-HOW IS THIS NOT EVIL!!!

Milleniumlance
March 13th, 2006, 06:08 PM
more interesting would be more fun.

personally? nuby was a joke. he was a cheesy baddie and i found baal to be far more threatening (at least until ex deus machina and the stupidity there)

i still find baal kinda interesting since he's more multi-faceted. you never quite knowwhere you stand with him.

the Ori? no matter what we do with the Ori, we'll lose

we kill them and we'll have planets and planets full of peopel ticked off at us. we kill their followers, well that just makes us mass murderers killing people for believing in 'bad' gods

we'll never convert the believers, their belief is too deeply engrained

no matter what we do, we lose. we're in an unwinnable war

hmmm unwinnable war against an army of religious fanatics...sounds familiar.

Skydiver
March 13th, 2006, 06:18 PM
Uh?...Wow!...Okay first off, if the Ori are killing whole planets for no reason except that the inhabitants don't want to worship the Ori as gods how is this not evil. Are you suggesting some sort of plot twist which involves some other force or a faction of the Ori here that are manipulating the collective Ori or falsely representing them? Also I don't see how comparing the human philosophy (I assume you mean the SGC, which if you do I don't think is the case) 'of if you don't have tech to share, to heck with you' attitude to the credo of the Ori: 'worship us or die'. ß-HOW IS THIS NOT EVIL!!!

i'm not saying that they're not evil. I'm not saying that they're the good guys in any way. but i am saying that we don't know the whole story. Why are they so intolerant towards non-believers? Why are the so afraid of questions?

chances are we know why, yet, other than daniel and orlin's word, we have no proof. We don't know that they're not really ascending folks. For all we know, we - as in the sgc - are being manipulated by the ancients into helping them complete a millennia long civil war amongst themselves

JUNIOR
March 13th, 2006, 06:18 PM
exactly. why do we have to keep making them bigger and badder? Yeah, ok so it would be lame if the newest bad guy was a 98 pound weakling with a killer chihauhaha as his sidekick :)

but more evil doesn't necessarily = bigger and badder. evil is incidious and those nasty beggers that sneak up on you, that don't appear to be so mean and cruel are often the best villians.

comparing baal and nuby for example.

nuby was like a james bond villian. always coming up with the more complex and super duper plan...which just made him look more and more silly as all his elaborate plans fell apart

baal on the other hand - before the unfortunate plot twist in ex deus machina - was a very good villian. he was quietly evil. no grand plans, no grandious gestures...just simple evilness

now, now he's a joke. a nice looking joke, but a joke nonetheless

So how about a bi-polar Goa'uld?

Skydiver
March 13th, 2006, 06:18 PM
hmmm unwinnable war against an army of religious fanatics...sounds familiar.
too familiar. it's too close to real life for my tastes.

No one wins a religious war...cept the gravediggers :)

CueBa'al
March 13th, 2006, 06:23 PM
From the Ori point of view, they are good. They are showing the willing the path to enlightenment (or what they believe to be enlightenment), and using force to push their desires upon the unwilling. This is a classic "we're going to heaven, you're gonna burn in hell" type of scenario. Those that renounce their evil ways are saved, those that don't are seen as evil and must be destroyed. Every religion is, has been, or can be interpreted that way.

It's a no-win situation. If you think it can be won, then you've never tried to sway a religious fanatic from his/her beliefs. Death is the only solution aside from visible and undenyable destruction of the "divine entity" whom is the object of worship. Kill the "God" in front of everyone in a fashion that cannot be disputed, and you will go a long way to dismantling the infrastructure of religious zealotry.

Skydiver
March 13th, 2006, 06:29 PM
It's a no-win situation. If you think it can be won, then you've never tried to sway a religious fanatic from his/her beliefs. Death is the only solution aside from visible and undenyable destruction of the "divine entity" whom is the object of worship. Kill the "God" in front of everyone in a fashion that cannot be disputed, and you will go a long way to dismantling the infrastructure of religious zealotry.


presuming, of course, that the shocked and angered believers don't descend on you to seek out vengeance for you killing thier gods...or defacing them i shoud say since gods can't die :)

the thing is, thus far, the ori have no achilles heel. they constantly and consistently outsmart and outtech us. and since you can't reason with a zealot, that leaves us to out tech them...and given how splendidly the asgard did against the replicators, it ain't gonna be pretty

is it possible that they've made an enemy that's TOO bad, TOO evil, TOO hard to defeat..so that when 'we' do beat them, it's gonna be some way too simple, trite and cheesy manner...kinda like uploading a virus to the mother ship ;)

CueBa'al
March 13th, 2006, 06:40 PM
is it possible that they've made an enemy that's TOO bad, TOO evil, TOO hard to defeat..so that when 'we' do beat them, it's gonna be some way too simple, trite and cheesy manner...kinda like uploading a virus to the mother ship ;)

My thoughts centered upon this subject today. I came to the conclusion that we cannot yet count out the asgard, or the possibility of Vala wrecking things for the Ori by introducing Adria to her first XBox 360...

Skydiver
March 13th, 2006, 06:44 PM
My thoughts centered upon this subject today. I came to the conclusion that we cannot yet count out the asgard, or the possibility of Vala wrecking things for the Ori by introducing Adria to her first XBox 360...
lolol

just hook the kid up to tv, that'll take care of her

JUNIOR
March 13th, 2006, 06:59 PM
i'm not saying that they're not evil. I'm not saying that they're the good guys in any way. but i am saying that we don't know the whole story. Why are they so intolerant towards non-believers? Why are the so afraid of questions?

chances are we know why, yet, other than daniel and orlin's word, we have no proof. We don't know that they're not really ascending folks. For all we know, we - as in the sgc - are being manipulated by the ancients into helping them complete a millennia long civil war amongst themselves

You should run for the senate of Appropriations because your post kind of sounds like something Kinsey or the new senator would say to the SGC. I think the point is that they want to kill the MW inhabitants if they don’t worship them. Even if the Ancients were manipulating the SGC, Jaffa,… to finish their war that they were fighting with the Ori to me this still doesn’t make a difference. The Ori tried to kill us first (Daniel and Vala via Harrid and Salis) not the other way around. If Ori are trying their hardest to kill us off if we don’t believe them then why not help the Ancients its a win-win situation. The Ancients not trying to kill SG-1 and other unbelievers every time they look around the Stargate so how do they say it: "The enemy of my enemy is my friend” (not sure if I got that saying right) and the Ori have definitely made it quite clear that if you don't worship them then you're their enemy.

JUNIOR
March 13th, 2006, 07:03 PM
From the Ori point of view, they are good. They are showing the willing the path to enlightenment (or what they believe to be enlightenment), and using force to push their desires upon the unwilling. This is a classic "we're going to heaven, you're gonna burn in hell" type of scenario. Those that renounce their evil ways are saved, those that don't are seen as evil and must be destroyed. Every religion is, has been, or can be interpreted that way.

It's a no-win situation. If you think it can be won, then you've never tried to sway a religious fanatic from his/her beliefs. Death is the only solution aside from visible and undenyable destruction of the "divine entity" whom is the object of worship. Kill the "God" in front of everyone in a fashion that cannot be disputed, and you will go a long way to dismantling the infrastructure of religious zealotry.

Okay you're forgetting one important thing ....its Scifi....anything can happen.

CueBa'al
March 13th, 2006, 08:23 PM
Problem is that even sci-fi has to have a basis in reality. Reality is that this type of situation has never in recorded history been resolved. There has been perpetual holy war fought over ancient slights for as long as history has been recorded. No one has found a solution to it, if they had our world would be a distinctly different place.

The issue is here that the solution to the Ori problem has no precedent.

That's the way I see it.

IMO, it will end in either a stroke of writing genius or it will be resolved at the hands of Deus Ex Machina (ala holy grail, etc.).

shiznaw
March 13th, 2006, 08:50 PM
I'm not that creative a person myself, but I was hoping that shiznaw would at least present a possible villain that just point out similarities between the different villains of Stargate.

I see a complaint of no resurgence of originality, yet nary a solution to the perceived problem is offered. "Why would you want Half-Life 2 when someone already made Doom, it's just FPS 9.0?"

I don't mean to sound hostile, and if it comes that way I am sorry, I just like reading solutions to more than what seems to be a rant.

I think you've missed the point. The premise that the success of the show's storyboard doesn't have to hinge on whether the villian is bigger and has more incredible powers next season. AS noted by Skydiver, now with the ORi in play, its almost a no win situation for all players in the STargate Universe because of the limitless power and the ostensibly awesome powers they've possessed. I believe that some of the rules in dealing with etheral (sp) beings in the ascended plane have been altered as well just to justify the powers tat the Priors have been given.

I'm sure there's a way out of this mess, but I just don't have an answer. Personally, I wouldn't have created the Ori in the first place, but hey, that's just me. Resources would have been better focused on developing what was already established in prior seasons

Lord Shiva
March 13th, 2006, 09:21 PM
It seems to me, rather than concentrating on making an enemy "worse than" the predecessor enemy, a more INTERESTING enemy would be a good idea. This whole "Worse Than" craze really is no way to drive a series. Interesting is a lot more important than "worse than".

Ok, so...

Tell us what you'd like to see. I'd rather have the Ori then the Lucian Alliance. Actually, I'd rather STILL have the System Lords, but hey, everything advances, and I'm fine with the Ori.

Skydiver
March 14th, 2006, 04:30 AM
Problem is that even sci-fi has to have a basis in reality. Reality is that this type of situation has never in recorded history been resolved. There has been perpetual holy war fought over ancient slights for as long as history has been recorded. No one has found a solution to it, if they had our world would be a distinctly different place.

The issue is here that the solution to the Ori problem has no precedent.

That's the way I see it.

IMO, it will end in either a stroke of writing genius or it will be resolved at the hands of Deus Ex Machina (ala holy grail, etc.).
and my money is on the cheesy deus ex machina.

kinda like we had in reckoning, kinda like we had in new order with jack's super gun, that gets disabled to allow for the bigger and better weapon in reckoning

the thing is, when the writers keep coming up with bigger and badder, without adequately giving said villians real motivation or a well thought out achilles heel, then they simply set themselves up to be mocked because they keep creating the more and more impossible situation and then create teh gizmo to get us out of it.

who needs ingenuity, we just need the next best thing off the 'as seen on tv' website :)

Formerhost
March 14th, 2006, 04:34 AM
and my money is on the cheesy deus ex machina.

kinda like we had in reckoning, kinda like we had in new order with jack's super gun, that gets disabled to allow for the bigger and better weapon in reckoning

the thing is, when the writers keep coming up with bigger and badder, without adequately giving said villians real motivation or a well thought out achilles heel, then they simply set themselves up to be mocked because they keep creating the more and more impossible situation and then create teh gizmo to get us out of it.

who needs ingenuity, we just need the next best thing off the 'as seen on tv' website :)

It seems now that there's no Achilles heel for the Ori, I suppose we'll see one in season 10.

Auralis
March 14th, 2006, 05:45 AM
I say it again, the deus ex machina is already build in.
The holy grail, arthurs ascended beings killer thingy.
That is all there is, nothing else is needed.
We just get beated in all major events till its found, then the story is over.

GhostPoet
March 14th, 2006, 11:28 AM
The following was quoted prior:

First come the The Goa'uld were bad, but they were interesting. The whole symbiote things was interesting.. and it made for a cheap enemy too, because it was an alien in a human body and not for silly Star Trek "everybody is human" reasons. Granted, the comic book bad guy dialogue did make the Goa'uld a little cheesy, but really, all in all they were O.K.

Next, The Replicators were also bad, and they were SOMEWHAT interesting. Legos with attitude aren't that scary, but they weren't a virtual copy of the Goa'uld.

Next, we get the "new and improved" Apophis in Season 8. He takes over a larger kingdom. He has bigger ships. He has more troops. He's worse, but there's no great creativity there. He's just "System Lord" 2.0.

Then we have "worse than the Goa'uld" in the form of Anubis-Ascended. The whole "half ascended" bit was supposed to make him scarier, but really he was the same as any other Goa'uld in motives. He still had to gloat. He still had to dominate others in much the same way. Not until the end, in "Threads" when he wanted to destroy all life in the galaxy and start over did Anubis really differentiate himself from other Goa'uld. Sure, he had "worse" warriors than Jaffa, but they weren't very interesting. Sure, he had slightly more tech than other Goa'uld, but really, is slightly better tech anything other than just more of the same? Anubis is "System Lord" 3.0.

Then we have the human-form Replicators. They still want to do the same thing as regular Replicators, but they add a comic book villain element too. Now we can talk to them. Other than that? Not so differernt. These are Replicators 2.0. But they aren't bad enough, so we need to personalize it more. We create history between Carter and Fifth, and now he has a personal grudge against SG1 and humanity in general. Replicator 3.0. Still not enough, let's personalize it some more with a RepliCarter, who is about as personalized as you can get. Replicator 4.0. More of the same. Just "crank up the volume".

For Stargate Atlantis, we have the Wraith, who are a lot like the Goa'uld. The Goa'uld use humanity as unwilling hosts and slaves, while the Wraith use thumanity as unwilling food. Both the Goa'uld and the Wraith have unnatural regenerative powers, and through either nature or technology live forever. Both use the same comic book villain lines. Both are more technologically advanced than humanity. Both rule large swaths of their respective galaxies. Both are dependent upon humanity for their very lives (the Goa'uld as hosts, the Wraith as food). In order to make the Wraith "worse than" the Goa'uld, instead of space enslavers, they are space vampires. So really, in a lot of ways, it is just more of the same.

Now, in season nine, we have the Ori. "Worse than the Goa'uld" we are told. But really, aren't they just another form of ascended being just like Anubis but? Shouldn't they be calling it "Worse than Anubis"?

It seems to me, rather than concentrating on making an enemy "worse than" the predecessor enemy, a more INTERESTING enemy would be a good idea. This whole "Worse Than" craze really is no way to drive a series. Interesting is a lot more important than "worse than".


I think the Ori ARE worse than the Goa'uld in this case. :) Unlike a Goa'uld you can't kill an Ori...can't even get to their galaxy...and when they DO find this secret weapon...I doubt it's going to be an easy thing to kill the Ori with it.
They have followers farrrr more resolved than any Jaffa ever had.

So yes...they are worse than the Goa'uld. =)

TPL2005
March 14th, 2006, 12:26 PM
Well i think we can all agree that when the Ori are defeated that will be the end of SG-1. If the trend is to go bigger and badder then you really can't get bigger or badder than the Ori.

Metarock Sam
March 14th, 2006, 12:35 PM
You never know the Stargate wrld could be attacked by..... Magnets !!! :D

Skydiver
March 14th, 2006, 12:45 PM
Well i think we can all agree that when the Ori are defeated that will be the end of SG-1. If the trend is to go bigger and badder then you really can't get bigger or badder than the Ori.
oh i'm sure they'll come up with something bigger and badder.....somehow.

always has to be bigger

bigger isn't always better

Dani347
March 14th, 2006, 12:52 PM
oh i'm sure they'll come up with something bigger and badder.....somehow.

always has to be bigger

bigger isn't always better


Frankly, I'd really think it was something if they could infuse a "98 pound weakling with a killer chihauhaha as his sidekick" with enough menace and intrigue to really seem like a formidable villian. Be creative!

Skydiver
March 14th, 2006, 01:00 PM
like on atlantis. ok, i know people that hate them, but i liked the genii in a way simply because they weren't bigger and more powerful...but they were still a force to be reckoned with because they were smart and incidious and intelligent

you didn't need to search for a super weapon and go ona quest full of spiffy sfx...you had to think your way out of it and out plot them

i miss those intelligent villians

shiznaw
March 14th, 2006, 01:39 PM
like on atlantis. ok, i know people that hate them, but i liked the genii in a way simply because they weren't bigger and more powerful...but they were still a force to be reckoned with because they were smart and incidious and intelligent

you didn't need to search for a super weapon and go ona quest full of spiffy sfx...you had to think your way out of it and out plot them

i miss those intelligent villians

And the winner is.....Skydiver.

JUNIOR
March 15th, 2006, 07:06 AM
like on atlantis. ok, i know people that hate them, but i liked the genii in a way simply because they weren't bigger and more powerful...but they were still a force to be reckoned with because they were smart and incidious and intelligent

you didn't need to search for a super weapon and go ona quest full of spiffy sfx...you had to think your way out of it and out plot them

i miss those intelligent villians

Ba'al and Gerak sort of (I guess he might be considered more of an antagonist though.)

JUNIOR
March 15th, 2006, 07:14 AM
You also have to take into account that S9 was just setting up their main arch with the Ori, and now that they have established that I think we’ll see more minor villains that use their wit more (Lucian Alliance, the possible new Goa’uld character related to the Cronus story arch,and of course Ba'al).

Lokii
March 15th, 2006, 09:03 AM
The opposite. It's fascinating theme to introduce, but it's extremely difficult one and it has to be done well. The beginning (season 9) did quite well, let's see what's next...

I really don't like religious fanatics with my entertainment. There are too many of them in the world as it is.

Lokii
March 15th, 2006, 09:07 AM
Well i think we can all agree that when the Ori are defeated that will be the end of SG-1. If the trend is to go bigger and badder then you really can't get bigger or badder than the Ori.

Don't you remember Yoda 101 "Size Matters Not."

Skydiver
March 15th, 2006, 09:30 AM
I really don't like religious fanatics with my entertainment. There are too many of them in the world as it is.
that's my issue with it. I live with it 24/7, not only on a national level but on a local one (we have a local religious fanatic whose 'religion' is, i kid you not, to be homophobic. in his mind, the reason we had fatalities in this weekend's storms was god's wrath for us having homosexuals in our country...and no, i am not making this up)

so i live with religious fanaticism and hatred hiding behind religion on a daily basis, which is probably why i have no patience for it in my 'entertainment'

i've lived the futility

Lokii
March 16th, 2006, 05:51 AM
that's my issue with it. I live with it 24/7, not only on a national level but on a local one (we have a local religious fanatic whose 'religion' is, i kid you not, to be homophobic. in his mind, the reason we had fatalities in this weekend's storms was god's wrath for us having homosexuals in our country...and no, i am not making this up)

so i live with religious fanaticism and hatred hiding behind religion on a daily basis, which is probably why i have no patience for it in my 'entertainment'

i've lived the futility

What a demented soul. When the local fanatics start coming door to door, I grab my "Guns don't kill people I kill people" or "Religious nuts should be pressed into peanut butter" t-shirt and answer the door. They are quite the deterrent. They usually turn right around.

GhostPoet
March 16th, 2006, 11:09 AM
that's my issue with it. I live with it 24/7, not only on a national level but on a local one (we have a local religious fanatic whose 'religion' is, i kid you not, to be homophobic. in his mind, the reason we had fatalities in this weekend's storms was god's wrath for us having homosexuals in our country...and no, i am not making this up)

so i live with religious fanaticism and hatred hiding behind religion on a daily basis, which is probably why i have no patience for it in my 'entertainment'

i've lived the futility

Just don't mistake fanatics for people who really follow a religion (or otherwise) as their are fanatics on all sides...all beliefs and non-beliefs. Doesn't mean they speak (or even ARE) for their belief system.

Skydiver
March 16th, 2006, 12:58 PM
very true. to me, being religious has less to do with where you pray than it does what you do.

I have first hand experience with a priest who has a girlfriend, i know of a girl who's 21, who's on her third child and says she cannot prevent the pregnancies because her religion doesn't permit birth control...yeah, well it sure as hades doesnt' permit premarital sex either but that doesn't seem to stop her :)

In other words, to me, religion isn't in the words you speak perse, but in your actions and attitudes

but this doesn't apply to the ori. the ori demand blind devotion and, as such, are fueled by people that do not think for themselves - or are too afraid to.

my personal beliefs lead me to be very skeptical of religions and very cynical, and that does color how i see the Ori storyline. It's nothing near what i call entertainment and i don't find the futility of fighting the fanatic to be appealing at all

you can't win. the best that can be hoped for is a stalemate

JUNIOR
March 16th, 2006, 10:19 PM
very true. to me, being religious has less to do with where you pray than it does what you do.

I have first hand experience with a priest who has a girlfriend, i know of a girl who's 21, who's on her third child and says she cannot prevent the pregnancies because her religion doesn't permit birth control...yeah, well it sure as hades doesnt' permit premarital sex either but that doesn't seem to stop her :)

In other words, to me, religion isn't in the words you speak perse, but in your actions and attitudes

but this doesn't apply to the ori. the ori demand blind devotion and, as such, are fueled by people that do not think for themselves - or are too afraid to.

my personal beliefs lead me to be very skeptical of religions and very cynical, and that does color how i see the Ori storyline. It's nothing near what i call entertainment and i don't find the futility of fighting the fanatic to be appealing at all

you can't win. the best that can be hoped for is a stalemate

You stay on your side of the universe and we'll stay on ours.:rolleyes:

Skydiver
March 17th, 2006, 07:11 AM
yeah, but the ori won't do that. they won't respect others becaue they have this drive and need to 'convert' as many as possible

The Engineer
March 18th, 2006, 09:29 AM
that's my issue with it. I live with it 24/7, not only on a national level but on a local one (we have a local religious fanatic whose 'religion' is, i kid you not, to be homophobic. in his mind, the reason we had fatalities in this weekend's storms was god's wrath for us having homosexuals in our country...and no, i am not making this up)

so i live with religious fanaticism and hatred hiding behind religion on a daily basis, which is probably why i have no patience for it in my 'entertainment'

i've lived the futility

But at least the Ori aren't homophobic (yet), when they'll turn phelps then sci fi becomes your daily international and local reality.

Skydiver
March 18th, 2006, 09:47 AM
intolerant fanaticism is still intolerant fanaticism

and futility is neverending

Formerhost
March 18th, 2006, 09:54 AM
intolerant fanaticism is still intolerant fanaticism

and futility is neverending

Sad, but true...

Skydiver
March 18th, 2006, 12:23 PM
that's why i don't find the Ori that interesting.

when shows get into this 'bigger villian, bigger villian, bigger villian' arms race, they keep getting more and more and more OTT until they reach a silliness level that beomes mockable.

I acknowledge the temptation to keep going for the bigger flash in the pan, but it creates an unsustainable situation. the bigger and more unbeatable the villian, the bigger and more unbelievable the 'fix' and things get more and more farcical

instead of making them bigger and badder, how about making the vilians more interesting? how about giving them more depth and more cause for what they do?

the ori and priors are just like the kull warriors...just without the armor :)

mindless canonfodder

Formerhost
March 18th, 2006, 01:07 PM
that's why i don't find the Ori that interesting.

when shows get into this 'bigger villian, bigger villian, bigger villian' arms race, they keep getting more and more and more OTT until they reach a silliness level that beomes mockable.

I acknowledge the temptation to keep going for the bigger flash in the pan, but it creates an unsustainable situation. the bigger and more unbeatable the villian, the bigger and more unbelievable the 'fix' and things get more and more farcical

instead of making them bigger and badder, how about making the vilians more interesting? how about giving them more depth and more cause for what they do?

the ori and priors are just like the kull warriors...just without the armor :)

mindless canonfodder

I suppose we'll get some more explanations and perhaps more "human" face of the Ori in season 10. Let's wait and see...

The Engineer
March 18th, 2006, 05:17 PM
I suppose we'll get some more explanations and perhaps more "human" face of the Ori in season 10. Let's wait and see...
The Ori are new. They were introduced in season 9, as the Wraith were in season 1 Atlantis. No time for depth, and yet we saw Condemned, Instinct, Michael and Allies. Who says we won't seem deph of the Ori, after all it's pretty much the same TPTB.

Auralis
March 18th, 2006, 11:32 PM
The problem is that the Ori are that powerfull that there is NO way to logical win, except by a deus ex machina -> arthus ascended killer device, weapon, thingy, whatever.
That is bad story telling, especialy if you actually want to continue the story after the ultimate evil has been defeated.
What will you do then? pull out a new ultimate evil, that needs to be defeated by yet another plot device?
Season 6, the eye of ra
Season 7, the lost city
Season 8, the dakara device
Season 9+ merlins thingy

See a pattern there? it is bad writing, just topping one ueber evil with another and inventing another super weapon of doom to counter it.
After the Ori there will be no more enemy that can be bought in logicialy.
The end of the Ori plot is the end of at least sg1

Wraith Scientist
March 19th, 2006, 06:55 AM
Agreed, TPTB should focus less on making more and more uberpowerful bad guys and focus more on giving enemies depth and character

That's what we want right: interesting enemies with complex relationships with the protagonists. Some of the best enemies are ones that you can relate to or have believable motives (rather than "mwahahaha we're so evil we want to enslave the universe")

Less deus ex machina, more depth