Atlantis and Eastern Mythology

[Shtaman]

SPOILERS

After reading the spoilers for the episode «Progeny», it became obvious to me that the Asurans, the new enemies of Atlantis are based on the Hindu and Buddhist myth of the Asuras.

In Mahayana Buddhism, the universe is composed of ten spiritual realms, the lower six being called the Samsara, or the reincarnation wheel. Each of the realms is populated by a different class of beings who are the personification of a vice. The six lower realms of Samsara are:

1. Realm of the Devas, superior god-like humans who possess great power, but are neither immortal or omnipotent. Their vices are pride and decadence.

2. Realm of the Asuras, rational beings also superior to humans but jealous of the Devas and their power. This realm represents the vices of jealousy and violence, and is also named «Realm of the Titans» and «Realm of the Jealous Gods».

3. Realm of the Manushyas, or humans. Their vices are passion and emotions, but they are the most susceptible to attain enlightenment.

4. Realm of the Pretas, ghost-like beings that can neither eat or drink normal food but are always hungry. Their vice is possessiveness and lust.

5. Realm of the Animals and the vice of stupidity.

6. Realm of the Narakas, a hellish place populated by demons whom vice is hatred.

Now, the first four Realms do sound a lot like they are depicted in Atlantis as the Ancients, the Asurans, the Humans and the Wraith. The Narakas could be the Ori (or, to a lesser extent, the Goa'uld)... In Hindu mythology, the Devas and Asuras were both created by the same being, Kasyapa, who also created human beings, and are always opposed, fighting over the offerings of humans.

The Six Realms are often represented as a wheel. The Devas are on the top. Then clockwise, you have the Asuras, the Pretas, Hell, the Animals and the Humans. Here’s a picture of the Wheel:

http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/world/images/s109.jpg

It’s interesting to see that the Devas seem to live in a castle built on water!

I don’t know what to make of all this, but it’s quite interesting.

Links:

http://www.khandro.net/doctrine_rebirth.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_lower_realms
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asuras

[Prior_of_the_Ori]

Also found this which might prove interesting if the Asura are from Hindu mythology:


The Rama Empire, according to ancient texts discovered in India, existed thousands of years ago, alongside the empire of Atlantis. The texts say that the two were constantly at war, and possessed advanced technology such as flying machines called Valixi (Atlantis) and Vimana (Rama). The texts even describe a battle between Rama and Atlantis on the moon. The Rama empire was also said to have possessed Brahmastra, a weapon "charged with all the power of heaven". The ancient accounts of Brahmastra seem to describe a nuclear weapon. - Acadine Wikipedia

[Jumper One]

You may wanna stick a spoiler warning in the threat title or on the first post or something.... :)

[Shtaman]

The Rama Empire, according to ancient texts discovered in India, existed thousands of years ago, alongside the empire of Atlantis. The texts say that the two were constantly at war, and possessed advanced technology such as flying machines called Valixi (Atlantis) and Vimana (Rama). The texts even describe a battle between Rama and Atlantis on the moon. The Rama empire was also said to have possessed Brahmastra, a weapon "charged with all the power of heaven". The ancient accounts of Brahmastra seem to describe a nuclear weapon. - Acadine Wikipedia

This is quite interesting, since Emperor Rama had an encounter with Varuna, the chief of the Asuras. Read this, it almost sounds like science-fiction!


Faced with the dilemma of how to cross the ocean, Rama performs a tapasya, fasting and meditating in perfect dhyana for three days and three nights to Varuna, the Lord of Oceans. The ocean does not respond, and Rama arises on the fourth morning, enraged by the God's arrogance. With his bow and arrow, he angrily begins attacking the oceans with celestial weapons - burning up the waters and killing its life and creatures. The Vanaras are dazzled and fearful at witnessing the enraged Rama demolish the oceans, and Lakshmana prays to calm Rama's mind. Just as Rama invokes the brahmastra, considered the most powerful weapon capable of destroying all creation, Varuna arises out of the oceans. He bows to Rama, explaining that he himself was at a loss to answer Rama's question. Begging him not to destroy the oceans with the missile, he suggests Rama re-direct the weapon at a demonic race that lives in the heart of the ocean. Rama's missile destroys the demons, and establishes a purer, liberated environment there. Varuna promises that he would keep the oceans still for all of Rama's army to pass, and Nala constructs a bridge across to Lanka. Rama justifies his angry assault on the oceans as he followed the correct process of petitioning and worshipping Varuna, but obtaining the result by force for the greater good

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rama
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varuna

[Prior_of_the_Ori]

Thats another interesting thing should Hindu mythology be used... Brahmastra sounds like a very powerful weapon so how would this translate in Atlantis terms? I mean Project Acturus could be considered something similar as the powerful blasts could have been devastating to enemy ships. So could Brahmastra be something similar like Project Acturus? Or something else?

[ZPM_Plant]

SPOILERS

After reading the spoilers for the episode «Progeny», it became obvious to me that the Asurans, the new enemies of Atlantis are based on the Hindu and Buddhist myth of the Asuras.

In Mahayana Buddhism, the universe is composed of ten spiritual realms, the lower six being called the Samsara, or the reincarnation wheel. Each of the realms is populated by a different class of beings who are the personification of a vice. The six lower realms of Samsara are:

1. Realm of the Devas, superior god-like humans who possess great power, but are neither immortal or omnipotent. Their vices are pride and decadence.

2. Realm of the Asuras, rational beings also superior to humans but jealous of the Devas and their power. This realm represents the vices of jealousy and violence, and is also named «Realm of the Titans» and «Realm of the Jealous Gods».

3. Realm of the Manushyas, or humans. Their vices are passion and emotions, but they are the most susceptible to attain enlightenment.

4. Realm of the Pretas, ghost-like beings that can neither eat or drink normal food but are always hungry. Their vice is possessiveness and lust.

5. Realm of the Animals and the vice of stupidity.

6. Realm of the Narakas, a hellish place populated by demons whom vice is hatred.

Now, the first four Realms do sound a lot like they are depicted in Atlantis as the Ancients, the Asurans, the Humans and the Wraith. The Narakas could be the Ori (or, to a lesser extent, the Goa'uld)... In Hindu mythology, the Devas and Asuras were both created by the same being, Kasyapa, who also created human beings, and are always opposed, fighting over the offerings of humans.

The Six Realms are often represented as a wheel. The Devas are on the top. Then clockwise, you have the Asuras, the Pretas, Hell, the Animals and the Humans. Here’s a picture of the Wheel:

http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/world/images/s109.jpg

It’s interesting to see that the Devas seem to live in a castle built on water!

I don’t know what to make of all this, but it’s quite interesting.

Links:

http://www.khandro.net/doctrine_rebirth.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_lower_realms
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asuras

Interesting stuff. Great post! I think that this explains in part why the show is so successful. The draw is helping explain the unexplained from our own history. It give us meaning. I just can't wait to hear more about our roots.

[Calicto]

Watch it. You're trespassing into a modern religion, and mine as well, mind you. But I like the research done.

That was the first thing I thought of when I heard of Asuras - the demon race that fought Indra and the devas. Also reminded me of the hindi word Ashur - which means monster.

Im interested with what you guys can do with this. Keep it up.

BTW, it's not Emperor Rama - its Lord Rama. By calling him a lord, you refer to the incarnation of Vishnu and thus the divine Rama. By calling him Emperor Rama, you can be refering to countless sovereigns with the name (like Ramachandra). =D

[Peoples_General]

Well Hinduism isn't the only religion that TPTB has made the Ancients/Ori represent. I mean look at Oma and Kheb. Thats Buddhism right there!

I wouldn't consider Origin to be anywhere near Christianity as so many of the not-as-familiar-with-other-religions people love to jump into the conclusion of. If they knew more of other religions they would not say this, but when they find SIMILARITIES, they tend to fail to realize that Earth's many religions share similarites with Christendom too.

Not to mention failure to take notice of the villains depicted in their own religion being more similar to the Ori. In the case of Christianity... the Devil, anti-christ, Hell fire, and etc.

[fortyseven]

Very interesting. Especially the wheel and the part about the fight between the Devas and Asurans.

[viper83]

The Rama Empire, according to ancient texts discovered in India, existed thousands of years ago, alongside the empire of Atlantis. The texts say that the two were constantly at war, and possessed advanced technology such as flying machines called Valixi (Atlantis) and Vimana (Rama). The texts even describe a battle between Rama and Atlantis on the moon. The Rama empire was also said to have possessed Brahmastra, a weapon "charged with all the power of heaven". The ancient accounts of Brahmastra seem to describe a nuclear weapon. - Acadine Wikipedia :

This also true but atlantis was what he was fighting, it was lanka. Present day Sri Lanka.
The Alantis you me refer to is During Krishna's Time.
Dwarka - Krishna's Kingdom he created
Dwarka - Atlantis
has story is that is exaclty same as Atlantis.
Krishna destroyed Dwarka before he Ascended into the Heavens, becuase his dynasty was was becoming Lustful and greedy.

[Platschu]

This theory is cool! :D I am not very good at eastern mythology, but we could see Lord Kali in the SG-1 5x15-5x16 Summit/Last stand. They wanted to write about Shiva too, but if I know well the name would be changed to "Olokun".

[The Ori]

F***in hell man I like what you guys/girls, mind you, have done. The research is brilliant. And it makes the Atlantis theme a lot more interesting. Hopefully this is what the writers ahve used because it's great, but, but, but, Atlantis needs a Daniel Jackson, because there will be noone to explain all of this to us on the show.

[XxDark-LordxX]

Watch it. You're trespassing into a modern religion, and mine as well, mind you. But I like the research done.

That was the first thing I thought of when I heard of Asuras - the demon race that fought Indra and the devas. Also reminded me of the hindi word Ashur - which means monster.

Im interested with what you guys can do with this. Keep it up.

BTW, it's not Emperor Rama - its Lord Rama. By calling him a lord, you refer to the incarnation of Vishnu and thus the divine Rama. By calling him Emperor Rama, you can be refering to countless sovereigns with the name (like Ramachandra). =D
no offence but alot of religions are critised...



and very intresting... thats one thing that makes the show great... it uses our own mithology in it... making it seem somewhat more realistic... what are the higher 4?

[The Ori]

In Hindu mythology, the Asura (Sanskrit: असुर) are a group of power-seeking deities, sometimes misleadingly referred to as demons. They were opposed to the devas. Both groups are children of Kashyapa. The name is cognate to Ahura - indeed, the Oxford English Dictionary recognises the use of the term in reference to Zoroastrianism, where "Ahura" would perhaps be more appropriate - and Æsir, which implies a common Proto-Indo-European origin for the Asura and the Æsir.

The negative character of the asura in Hinduism seems to have evolved over time. In general, the earliest texts have the asuras presiding over moral and social phenomena (e.g. Varuna, the guardian of rta, or Bhaga, the patron of marriages) and the devas presiding over natural phenomena (e.g. Ushas, whose name means "dawn", or Indra, a weather god).

Mitra, Varuna and Vritra are the most well known Asuras.

The term corresponds to the Zoroastrian word Ahura. In Zoroastrianism the Ahuras are supreme, while the devas are demonic. This observation corroborates with some intepretations of the Indo-Aryan migration hypothesis, that a single tribe in Central Asia split into two went separate ways, both ideologically and geographically, one migrating to India and the other to Persia.

In both cultures, this antagonism is worked out along the axis of sacrifice. The first Zoroastrian Gatha excoriates the worshippers of the daewas (devas) for their cruel treatment of sacrificial cows, while the Ahuras make efforts to protect the sacred cattle. In later Vedic ritual, the asuras and devas are frequently portrayed as fighting with one another over the offerings.

According to one hypothesis, the opposition between asuras and devas is rooted in proto-Indo-Iranian social structure. At important festivals, perhaps for new-year celebrations, it is postulated that two clans or sub-tribes would compete in making the most perfect ritual offering to the gods, seeking to outdo their peers in beauty of hymns sung, richness of offerings, and minute observance of traditional formulae. One clan would sacrifice to the devas, the other to the asuras. When proto-Indo-Iranian society grew and split, the two daughter societies slowly forgot the old agonistic context, and eventually chose one set of deities over the other.

[The Ori]

OOps sorry forgot to write, I bet we meet reoccurng characters whose names are based around Mitra, Varuna, Vritra.

[Prior_of_the_Ori]

Not sure about names but I think one of the Asurans in season 3 is called Oberoth though not sure if he survives to be a big menace. Whether he (I think mythology wise there is a being called Oberon who was a fairy or elvish type figure)

[The Ori]

hmm interesting, good catch mate

[CobraGate]

Not sure about names but I think one of the Asurans in season 3 is called Oberoth though not sure if he survives to be a big menace. Whether he (I think mythology wise there is a being called Oberon who was a fairy or elvish type figure)

He is the king of the fairy type people on Avalon.

As for that new race on Atlantis & being based on Hindu, how would they have influenced the Hindu beleifes on Earth?

I always hoped that the Furlings would be based on the Hindu. I always pictured it that the Furlings would be overly eager to fight the goa'uld, unlike the others of the big 4, & like how Thor is the main Asgaurd, that the Furling that would be on the show alot would be Vishnu. A big blue 4-armed badass, kinda like Goro from Mortal Kombat, but a good guy.

[DaCk]

Uh oh... somebody found TPTB's notes! :cameron: Thats pretty cool it makes you wonder what other similarities there are. And the whole Vilixi and Vimana is pretty interesting. Great find!

[viper83]

He is the king of the fairy type people on Avalon.

As for that new race on Atlantis & being based on Hindu, how would they have influenced the Hindu beleifes on Earth?

I always hoped that the Furlings would be based on the Hindu. I always pictured it that the Furlings would be overly eager to fight the goa'uld, unlike the others of the big 4, & like how Thor is the main Asgaurd, that the Furling that would be on the show alot would be Vishnu. A big blue 4-armed badass, kinda like Goro from Mortal Kombat, but a good guy.

First of all, the Hindu or ( Santana Dharma ) philosophy believes in a pacifism ideology. Please kindly read about the Religion before commenting on it. Mortal Kombat is more along of the lines of East Asian Mythology no West Asian. Again i implore you to read about Hindu philosophy, when relating to Ancients. ( In Hindu Philosophy the we are in fourth evolution of our species)
refer to Hindu concept of time)

The AgeS believed in Hinduism
Satya Yuga or Krita Yuga - 1,728,000 years
Treta Yuga - 1,296,000 years
Dvapara Yuga - 864,000 years
Kali Yuga - 432,000 years


From what what we know the ancients left our Galaxy about a 1 million years ago and settle in peg galaxy with Atlantis. We know Lord Krishna ascended to the heavens at the beginning of Kali-Yuga.

Also in SG-Atlantis look at Ancients when Weir went back in time. Looking at clothing type. has Eastern Style. Also look at the ep when shep get stuck in world that time accelerates the clothing is Saffron colored. Saffron is the color of Santa Dharma. Look at the Indian Flag, it has Four Colors. The top color is Saffron - Hindu, White - Christianity , Blue-Judaism, and Green- Islamic.

Ancients - Refer to Devatas
Ori- Refer to Asurans and Evil Ancients

[NakedJehutyV2]

nice tying them in with others. now for mexican incas, aztecs, and myans

[Darkstar]

nice tying them in with others. now for mexican incas, aztecs, and myans


hmm Stargate has covered a whole host of religious followings and civilisations (usually becasue they were centered around religion and belifes at the times), i think the only cultures that have not been done are in the areas of the world of China a japan, hindu i think was not really delved deeply into too much and incas, although Myan was touched upon in "crystal skull" although Daniel refered to the Ziggurat as resembling Myans Ziggurat's, i think in a world with so many modern religions that have spaned many centuries if not even more it can be hard to centre episodes or people around these in a way that more times often than not are bad people to which the religion's preach peace and some spiritual enlightenment.

im never really one for religion, i have never beleived in it, but i do find many aspects of it fascinating enough to have an understanding rather than of ignorance with no reason, but the world would be a boring place if no cultures or religions ever existed, mind you most if not all ancient wars up untill the 19th century were becasue of religion so there is the other side of the coin to consider, just a thought

[The Ori]

Hey Darkstar, Nicely said man.

[IcyNeko]

Very interesting discussion!

If I may add some more insight into the discussion. I'm a practicing Mayahana Buddhist, and so this material is something we discuss often.

The 10 realms of existence are states of being that humans will go through on a moment-to-moment basis. Some require effort, some do not, but these are inherent in each human, not outside planes of existence. They are divided by characteristics.

The Six lower realms:
1. Hell - The realm of intense suffering
2. Hunger - The Realmof Hunry Ghosts. Our desire to attain something
3. Animality - The Animal realm. Our desire to be dominant.. to be better than others.
4. Anger - The realm of the Asuras. Our anger and hatred.
5. Humanity - The Human Realm. How we exist when we are tranquil.
6. Rapture - The Deva Realm (according to wikipedia). Our feelings of temporary joy.
Buddhism sometimes refer to these worlds as the six lower realms or the six evil realms. They are passive worlds that require no effort on our part to attain... these are reactions we have to the world around us.

And the Four Higher Realms
7. Learning - Sravaka-yana (spiritual discipleship). The state of acquiring information.
8. Realization - Spiritual Self-awakening. The state of understanding information.
9. Bodhisattva - Attaining enlightenment for oneself and others. The state of applying information to our lives and helping others
10. Buddhahood - total enlightenment beyond self and others. The state of absolute confidence and wisdom to perceive all things as they are. Also called Enlightenment.
Buddhist teachings refer to the four higher realms as the "Four Noble Paths" because it takes effort to reach these realms. Effort, persistence, and the desire to improve ones life for the better.

Some schools of buddhism teach that enlightenment takes many lifetimes to reach. The schools of Buddhism that follow the Lotus Sutra (one of the last sutras taught by "the Buddha") teach that one can do it in one lifetime, and that one has to sustain such a level of life through good deeds and continual self-improvement. There's a lot of theory associated with this.

What I find interesting... if the writers are attempting to use an adaptation of the Buddhist spiritual realm structure... it seems like they're making each spiritual realm into a finite state such that once you reach that state, you stay there. If this is what the writers are doing...

By description, perhaps the Ancients are in the state Learning/Realization, aiming for ultimate enlightenment (the state of Buddhahood). But until they realize that to reach there, they have to help other people journey to enlightenment (as Oma did in a way), they'll never progress further.

It is said in the Lotus Sutra that those who are true practitioners of the Lotus Sutra will be protected by protective forces of life, both those perceived to be "good" and those perceived to be "bad". What this might mean (if applied to the Stargate universe) is that those whom are seeking the path to enlightenment would be protected both by good elements (Ancients) and the bad (Asurans). Possible insight into the future episodes?

All of this is speculation, and even the application of the theory twists a lot of parts of Buddhism that weren't meant to be twisted.. but it's interesting nonetheless.

[The Ori]

Nicely done, Icy.

[Darkstar]

Very interesting discussion!

If I may add some more insight into the discussion. I'm a practicing Mayahana Buddhist, and so this material is something we discuss often.

The 10 realms of existence are states of being that humans will go through on a moment-to-moment basis. Some require effort, some do not, but these are inherent in each human, not outside planes of existence. They are divided by characteristics.

The Six lower realms:
1. Hell - The realm of intense suffering
2. Hunger - The Realmof Hunry Ghosts. Our desire to attain something
3. Animality - The Animal realm. Our desire to be dominant.. to be better than others.
4. Anger - The realm of the Asuras. Our anger and hatred.
5. Humanity - The Human Realm. How we exist when we are tranquil.
6. Rapture - The Deva Realm (according to wikipedia). Our feelings of temporary joy.
Buddhism sometimes refer to these worlds as the six lower realms or the six evil realms. They are passive worlds that require no effort on our part to attain... these are reactions we have to the world around us.

And the Four Higher Realms
7. Learning - Sravaka-yana (spiritual discipleship). The state of acquiring information.
8. Realization - Spiritual Self-awakening. The state of understanding information.
9. Bodhisattva - Attaining enlightenment for oneself and others. The state of applying information to our lives and helping others
10. Buddhahood - total enlightenment beyond self and others. The state of absolute confidence and wisdom to perceive all things as they are. Also called Enlightenment.
Buddhist teachings refer to the four higher realms as the "Four Noble Paths" because it takes effort to reach these realms. Effort, persistence, and the desire to improve ones life for the better.

Some schools of buddhism teach that enlightenment takes many lifetimes to reach. The schools of Buddhism that follow the Lotus Sutra (one of the last sutras taught by "the Buddha") teach that one can do it in one lifetime, and that one has to sustain such a level of life through good deeds and continual self-improvement. There's a lot of theory associated with this.

What I find interesting... if the writers are attempting to use an adaptation of the Buddhist spiritual realm structure... it seems like they're making each spiritual realm into a finite state such that once you reach that state, you stay there. If this is what the writers are doing...

By description, perhaps the Ancients are in the state Learning/Realization, aiming for ultimate enlightenment (the state of Buddhahood). But until they realize that to reach there, they have to help other people journey to enlightenment (as Oma did in a way), they'll never progress further.

It is said in the Lotus Sutra that those who are true practitioners of the Lotus Sutra will be protected by protective forces of life, both those perceived to be "good" and those perceived to be "bad". What this might mean (if applied to the Stargate universe) is that those whom are seeking the path to enlightenment would be protected both by good elements (Ancients) and the bad (Asurans). Possible insight into the future episodes?

All of this is speculation, and even the application of the theory twists a lot of parts of Buddhism that weren't meant to be twisted.. but it's interesting nonetheless.

exaclly my point, with modern religions for a TV show to use these ideals and twist them to make the show acceptable can defy the whole point of what the religion stands for, which in this instance if TPTB were to use all of the above it may casue some upset if executed without due care, just a thought :D

[Stuey1221]

This thread is *totally& gonna help me with my essay.

I hope this aint banned but can anyone who knows stuff about the mythology in SG-1/Atlantis/Movie go to - http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=27315 and give me a few ideas. Im just startin to get started on it. The post explains all

Thanks in advance

[The Ori]

This has been one of the better threads.

[Darkstar]

This has been one of the better threads.

Here....Here...this thread has been one of THE most interesting threads to grace the forums this year for me :D

i like a good interesting topic that can relate to SG but with so many fans adding such detailed infomation only goes to shows their love for the unexplained and things that are shrouded in mystery that the shows try to portray each week :D