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jash
February 28th, 2006, 12:47 PM
The Ori are religious fanatics who probably distorted are religous belief that they and the alterrians have (had). Much like the KKK did to Christianity and like Bin Laden has done to Islam. They are religious fanatics that hate people who advance through education. The Alterrians stand for the advancing of civilization through education. I'm not saying religion keeps people ignorant just fanatics of religion what people ignorant so they can have greater control over society.

When the Ori learned to ascend like the alterrians did they took that hate and need for control with them to the next level.

I hope this make sense and is helpful.

Prior_of_the_Ori
February 28th, 2006, 01:29 PM
Could be possible. Perhaps ascended beings appearances reflect their inner nature. The Ori being fiery and wrathful beings, Ancients being white peaceful beings and another type which included Anubis were...dark...empty inside, only wanted more and more.

Andrew Joshua Talon
February 28th, 2006, 01:35 PM
Is it possible for Ascended beings to go insane?

Possibly, the methods that the Ori used to ascend generated a type of psychosis, leading to delusions of divinity. Or, it could be as simple as the Ori using their Ascended powers with good intentions, but steadily becoming corrupt and oppressive, since they had no checks to their influence over mortals.

aschen
February 28th, 2006, 01:38 PM
I'm willin to bet that the Ori hate the Ancients because the Ori were yippin' away like Daniel was when he was in the diner, and the Ancients totally ignored him.

The Engineer
February 28th, 2006, 03:39 PM
Theory:
Maybe the Ori were the first to learn to ascend, and the Alterans stole the know-how through tecnology. Maybe the Alterans because their hadn't the right intelect in order to ascend and throughout technology stole the Ori's "mojo" so they could also ascend, and because the Ori no longer poses "mojo" they need a surrogate. And that surrogate is 6 hours of devotion per day from beings from lower plaines of existence. I think the Ori want to end this and get back their "mojo" and the only way to get it back is by destroying the Alterans (Ancients).
(I thought "mojo":) is better than "something vital":p)

James_the_Wraith_Sympathiser
February 28th, 2006, 05:01 PM
Theory:
Maybe the Ori were the first to learn to ascend, and the Alterans stole the know-how through tecnology. Maybe the Alterans because their hadn't the right intelect in order to ascend and throughout technology stole the Ori's "mojo" so they could also ascend, and because the Ori no longer poses "mojo" they need a surrogate. And that surrogate is 6 hours of devotion per day from beings from lower plaines of existence. I think the Ori want to end this and get back their "mojo" and the only way to get it back is by destroying the Alterans (Ancients).
(I thought "mojo":) is better than "something vital":p)

This may be possible, although I don't think the Alterrans would of stolen anything from the Ori. Orlin says that they were the same society, however if the Ori were 'religious' they may have been more like the people we see in 'Epiphany' (S2 Atlantis), meditating on ascension, and definately may have resented the Alterrans if they were trying to attain the same means through technology. I think they may have truly believed that their descendants (the humans they created) must also follow a more religious life before they are 'worthy' of evolving to ascension.

creed462
February 28th, 2006, 05:13 PM
It could be hatred of that which is different

Andrew Joshua Talon
February 28th, 2006, 05:13 PM
This may be possible, although I don't think the Alterrans would of stolen anything from the Ori. Orlin says that they were the same society, however if the Ori were 'religious' they may have been more like the people we see in 'Epiphany' (S2 Atlantis), meditating on ascension, and definately may have resented the Alterrans if they were trying to attain the same means through technology. I think they may have truly believed that their descendants (the humans they created) must also follow a more religious life before they are 'worthy' of evolving to ascension.

Well yeah, but the Ori certainly haven't stayed "enlightened".

BubblingOverWithIdeas
February 28th, 2006, 08:37 PM
I think Jash is quite right.
And it's possible that the Ori originally (hah!) had good intentions, but millenia of playing with people's lives and deciding everything for them inevitably resulted in corruption. That's why the Altera don't do that sort of thing.

FNH USA P90
February 28th, 2006, 09:18 PM
Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Maybe the Ori will to dominate is that simple. Their power is not absolute, but it would seem to be absolute compared to mortals.

MarshAngel
March 1st, 2006, 05:18 AM
Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Maybe the Ori will to dominate is that simple. Their power is not absolute, but it would seem to be absolute compared to mortals.
I agree.

Another theory is that the Ori's religious beliefs could have been centered around gods like the Greek ones that didn't particularly care about humanity but were mostly involved in their own affairs. If they see ascencion as attaining godhood, and worshipped that version of god, then when they acheived it they simply shifted their perspective to that that of the gods they always worshipped. ie. Humans don't matter. Anyone incapable of attaining ascension on their own have no value unless to serve a greater purpose, theirs. We're expendable because we're not immortal and we're going to die anyway.

the fifth man
March 1st, 2006, 07:21 PM
The Ori hate the Ancients, IMO, because the Ancients rejected them and their way of doing things. The Ori probably truly believe what they are doing is justified by their power. And feel betrayed by their former brethen. They plan to wipe out the Ancients so no one can ever challenge their power .

NakedJehutyV2
March 2nd, 2006, 02:46 PM
didn't they already say the reason?

metroid
March 4th, 2006, 11:46 AM
A long time ago the Ori and the Altherans were 1 society, human on a evolutionary path to ascension, but a philosofical division grew the Ori grew more and more (word i have no idea how to spell :P) in their religious believe.
The Altherans for lack of a better way of putting it believed in science.
The Ori tried to wipe them out

So instead of going to war, the Altherans build a ship, left their galaxy and came here.
We know the Ori and the Altherans eventually ascended and that the Ori passed on a religion called Origin to the next evolution of humans they created.

The Ori hate the ancients because the ancients didn't agree with them, and while the Ori think they should be worshipped as gods, the ancients believe in free will.

That's just why the Ori hate them.

harlen
March 4th, 2006, 06:33 PM
Its only a TV series. Dont get carried away.

NakedJehutyV2
March 4th, 2006, 08:01 PM
both posts are true ^^

Scyld
March 4th, 2006, 10:59 PM
The Ori are religious fanatics who probably distorted are religous belief that they and the alterrians have (had). Much like the KKK did to Christianity and like Bin Laden has done to Islam. They are religious fanatics that hate people who advance through education. The Alterrians stand for the advancing of civilization through education. I'm not saying religion keeps people ignorant just fanatics of religion what people ignorant so they can have greater control over society.

When the Ori learned to ascend like the alterrians did they took that hate and need for control with them to the next level.

I hope this make sense and is helpful.

Actually, the real reason the Ori hate the Ancients is that the Ancients once called the Ori's mother 'pig-faced.'

Sauron18
March 4th, 2006, 11:31 PM
The Ori weren't religious fanatics, Orlin just said that they were more spiritual. That could mean a lot of things, but given a few things we know now, it could be narrowed down:

The Altera, we know now, used genetic modifications to evolve closer to a form capable of ascending. AKA, they chose the scientific path to Ascension.

The Ori probably thought this wasn't good (then anyone could ascend), and they were probably more evolved than the majority of the Altera (not all, just the majority) and felt that ascencion was something for only those deserving (which it is).

In the conflict, the Ori were probably corrupted by their feelings, and decided to kill the ancients.

It is also to be noted, that the Ori ascended first, proof being that their tech was at a level slightly better than MWG and slightly "Younger" than PG. And since the Altera spent thousands of years without technologically evolving much (between galaxies), this was probably when they Ori finished developing and went up high.


This is all of course, a guess, speculation. A very educated one nonetheless.

PS: Orlin never said anything about the Ori and whatever religion the had, just beliefs. That is a very general statement, and biased as well.

Sauron18
March 4th, 2006, 11:31 PM
The Ori weren't religious fanatics, Orlin just said that they were more spiritual. That could mean a lot of things, but given a few things we know now, it could be narrowed down:

The Altera, we know now, used genetic modifications to evolve closer to a form capable of ascending. AKA, they chose the scientific path to Ascension.

The Ori probably thought this wasn't good (then anyone could ascend), and they were probably more evolved than the majority of the Altera (not all, just the majority) and felt that ascencion was something for only those deserving (which it is).

In the conflict, the Ori were probably corrupted by their feelings, and decided to kill the ancients.

It is also to be noted, that the Ori ascended first, proof being that their tech was at a level slightly better than MWG and slightly "Younger" than PG. And since the Altera spent thousands of years without technologically evolving much (between galaxies), this was probably when they Ori finished developing and went up high.


This is all of course, a guess, speculation. A very educated one nonetheless.

PS: Orlin never said anything about the Ori and whatever religion the had, just beliefs. That is a very general statement, and biased as well.

PG15
March 5th, 2006, 03:41 PM
I don't think the level of tech has anything to do with ascension. Just because the Ori has better tech doesn't make them closer to Ascension.

Does that mean, say, the Tollen are closer to ascension than us? Or because they didn't have a dark age?

FireNexus
March 5th, 2006, 03:46 PM
Ori tech seems to be no better than ancient tech. It simply looks to be the ori on a war footing using their tech to a very specific end. Rather than humans using discarded, million year old ancient tech.

MarshAngel
March 5th, 2006, 03:57 PM
I don't think the level of tech has anything to do with ascension. Just because the Ori has better tech doesn't make them closer to Ascension.

Does that mean, say, the Tollen are closer to ascension than us? Or because they didn't have a dark age?

I think you may be right. Either that or the writers are confusing us with intentional vagueness. In one moment they say they evolved to a point of ascension in another they had machines that helped them and in yet another they don't need technology, just hours and hours of meditation.

All I can think of the differing stories is that the Ancients needed to evolve to the point of being able to ascend but we humans don't because either we didn't evolve from scratch when they seeded us, or our evolution is faster than theirs, or the writers don't have a clear view on what the Ancient's story is.

But if I had to fanwank this one I would go with:
They knew about ascension.
They tried several methods including genetic manipulation
Turns out meditation works too; they skip the machine in favor of the yoga mat.

nano
March 12th, 2006, 07:32 PM
Did anyone stop to consider that the Ori and Alterans wherent the only factions and that they wherent the first evolution either...

Originally the Ori and Alterans were originally one society, human, on an evolutionary path to ascension. - Orlin, s09e10

JanusAncient
March 12th, 2006, 08:38 PM
I too think that the Ori were closer to ascension than the Altera, they probably came before the Altera, but I unlike many others believe that it was the Ancients who tried to wipe out the Ori, because I think the ship they in fact built was Atlantis.

The Ori chose ascension through natural means, the Ancients through technology, this in itself breeds hatred, like Daniel said "fire is warmth, energy, light, but on Earth somewhere along the lines fire became evil, I wonder if the Ancients had anything to do with that?" It seems to me that the Ancients have done a lot to make the Ori seem evil, so I wonder what the reason for this is?

Teal'c17
March 12th, 2006, 09:43 PM
I dont think it was the ancients who tried to destroy the Ori. That would be a contradiction of all the behaviors and actions we have seen the ancients take. Did Janus or the other ancients seem like the kind of people who would hate someone for their beliefs? If they truly tried to wipe the Ori out because of their religious beliefs then why didnt they do that to us because of ours? Everything they have done so far has shown that they believe in the freedom to choose your beliefs.

metroid
March 13th, 2006, 12:21 AM
The Ori chose ascension through natural means, the Ancients through technology, this in itself breeds hatred, like Daniel said "fire is warmth, energy, light, but on Earth somewhere along the lines fire became evil, I wonder if the Ancients had anything to do with that?" It seems to me that the Ancients have done a lot to make the Ori seem evil, so I wonder what the reason for this is?

Maybe because the Ori have already proven to us that they are evil?
Why would they attack us if they weren't evil. Think before you write :)

The ancients have proved through their actions that they are not evil in my opinion.

Kirath
March 13th, 2006, 07:18 PM
they were the same race so they would be at the same level of evolution. one posibility is that when the first of their gained the ability to ascend there were to school of thought. Those who would become came to believe that all should focus there lives towards attaining ascension, while those who became the altera thought that they should continue to pursue science and exploration. The debate grew heated over time until war broke out. A war between 2 groups of ancients, with the posibility of ascended beings getting involved, would have been devastating. the altera may have had no choice but to leave there home galaxy, there may not have been anything left there. The Ori blamed the Altera and may have continued to and sought revenge even after millions of years on a higher plane.

JanusAncient
March 16th, 2006, 03:43 AM
Maybe because the Ori have already proven to us that they are evil?
Why would they attack us if they weren't evil. Think before you write :)

The ancients have proved through their actions that they are not evil in my opinion.


Have the Ancients truly proven that they aren't evil, it what way, what have any of the Ancients actually done for us, Orlin didn't come to warn us of the Ori for our sakes, he did it for his, and the other Ancients. Like he said, "the Ori conquering the Milky Way wouldn't be a good things for anyone," (paraphrasing). Which Ancient has helped us, who Janus, Chaya condemned people for their beliefs, she said, that the people of the Atlantis expedition couldn't live among her and her people. Anyone who believes in either good, or evil, has the potential to condemn someone, so think before you write gentle one. The Ancients have proven nothing to me, eventhough the writers will most likely go that direction for its simplicity, the Ancients have never helped anyone but themselves. Oma is the only good Ancient in my opinion, and she is punished for her actions, so was Orlin.

fallenexile452
March 16th, 2006, 08:54 AM
There are several possibilities:
1. If the ori evolved first and began using their power as they do now but the altera through technology proved that it didn't take some kind of religious fanaticism and therefore undermining their power were then forced to leave the galaxy fearing what the ascended Ori could do to them if they did not.
2. Once arriving in our galaxy realised that if anyone simply used the ascension machine then they could become like the Ori, taking their prejudice and lack of deeper understandign with them, and so decided upon the spiritual type ascension.

Just an extra point but whoever said that the ascended ancients were good or evil. They like some depictions of God could be beyond this or have aspects of both; we have after all seen the omnipotent aspect of non-interference and I’m pretty sure I remember Daniel saying that the ori weren’t on as higher plain as the ancients themselves (by the way I got this from the fact there are less altera {why leave if there are more of you} and Daniel saying the ori didn’t yet have the power to get the ancients {why send an army if you do?})

There just my thoughts though and could be completely wrong after all I don’t write the show do I.

Gregorrrr
March 16th, 2006, 09:33 AM
I dont think it was the ancients who tried to destroy the Ori. That would be a contradiction of all the behaviors and actions we have seen the ancients take. Did Janus or the other ancients seem like the kind of people who would hate someone for their beliefs? If they truly tried to wipe the Ori out because of their religious beliefs then why didnt they do that to us because of ours? Everything they have done so far has shown that they believe in the freedom to choose your beliefs.
I agree with that, isn't the plague the ancient faced long ago similar to what the priors did to us? i think the alterans had to learn how to ascend before they all die from that plague. Even Ayiana (the ancient found in Antartica) was sick from that plague.

Barca
March 16th, 2006, 09:55 AM
The Altera, we know now, used genetic modifications to evolve closer to a form capable of ascending. AKA, they chose the scientific path to Ascension.

How does that jibe with what we know about the Ancients?
Specifically the Buddist temple of the planet Kheb where Daniel meets a monk that tries to help people ascend? That is where he meets Oma Desala for the first time while searching for the Harcesis.
It seems that ascension for the Ancients was very religious.

OTOH, it is Anubis that tries a scientific approach.

MarshAngel
March 16th, 2006, 10:32 AM
Have the Ancients truly proven that they aren't evil,...

Could you definitevly decide if human society is good or evil? On one hand we have Oprah the charity giver on the other hand we have Hitler. Timothy McVeigh, Mother Teresa...

The Ancients can't be pigeonholed this way unless you subscribe to the thoery that they are gods and therefore perfectly all one way or the other and infallible.


...it what way, what have any of the Ancients actually done for us, Orlin didn't come to warn us of the Ori for our sakes, he did it for his, and the other Ancients.

And we didn't help free the Jaffa out of the goodness of our hearts. It benefits us greatly. Are we evil for having alterior motives?


Which Ancient has helped us, who Janus, Chaya condemned people for their beliefs, she said, that the people of the Atlantis expedition couldn't live among her and her people.

The Tollan didn't help us much either. They aren't evil. Not helping someone who has other avenues of opportunity to help themselves is not the same thing as killing them.


even though the writers will most likely go that direction for its simplicity, the Ancients have never helped anyone but themselves. Oma is the only good Ancient in my opinion, and she is punished for her actions, so was Orlin.

If they were helping and messed up, or we didn't like how they did what they did, we would condemn them.

Imagine if they invited us to their plane of existence to take care of one of their problems and then sent us away when they didn't need us anymore, or objected to our involvement in other ascended affairs that aren't really any of our business. Reverse the scenario and this is basically what we're asking.

You seem to be working from the premise that they owe us something or that they're neglecting a task they're supposed to be doing. If only by comparison, the ancients have proven themselves by not trying to kill us; which is one big positive point over the Ori.

It doesn't make them perfect, or all good just... not evil.

JanusAncient
March 16th, 2006, 05:24 PM
Could you definitevly decide if human society is good or evil? On one hand we have Oprah the charity giver on the other hand we have Hitler. Timothy McVeigh, Mother Teresa...

Truth, I neither believe in good nor evil, the terms themselves are overly-simplistic! There are several directions, you can take one or the other, but in the grand scheme of things is either more important, i.e. sanctioned by the universe, deemed the right course?



The Ancients can't be pigeonholed this way unless you subscribe to the thoery that they are gods and therefore perfectly all one way or the other and infallible.


For one, they are gods, in the Stargate realm, they have all the power of a god, I think it is people who don't understand what a god is, and what it is not. Gods, for the most part, are really just beings that others worship. Do you really believe, that first a being created his/her self, omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, then went on to create a universe, I have faith, but truly no one can actually be that naive.




And we didn't help free the Jaffa out of the goodness of our hearts. It benefits us greatly. Are we evil for having alterior motives?


No, but we aren't completely honest now are we?



The Tollan didn't help us much either. They aren't evil. Not helping someone who has other avenues of opportunity to help themselves is not the same thing as killing them.

It isn't the fact that they don't help us, that makes them, in my opinion, misleading. It's the fact, that they only break their supreme rule of non-interference, when their butts are on the line, if you aren't going to help, don't, I'd rather get there on my own. But, don't get involved only to help yourselves.



If they were helping and messed up, or we didn't like how they did what they did, we would condemn them.


They are ascended beings, our condemnation shouldn't bother them one bit, help if you're going to, don't if you're not.



You seem to be working from the premise that they owe us something or that they're neglecting a task they're supposed to be doing. If only by comparison, the ancients have proven themselves by not trying to kill us; which is one big positive point over the Ori.


They owe us nothing, but the Ori are a problem they should've dealt with long ago, especially if all they had to do was launch Merlin's anti-ascended being device through a Stargate, and call it a day. You really believe, that by not trying to kill us, that they've proven something. The Ori, they only kill those who oppose them, granted for ascended beings this is a bit much, still we do the same. The Ori, the Ancients, I just think that there is a lot about both their motives, that we simply do not understand.!

It doesn't make them perfect, or all good just... not evil.[/QUOTE]


The same could be said of the Ori, they have their reasons, from their point of view, what they have done, and what they continue to do is for the betterment of all of mankind. What the Ancients do, is for the betterment of them, and only them.

MarshAngel
March 17th, 2006, 08:39 AM
TFor one, they are gods, in the Stargate realm, they have all the power of a god, I think it is people who don't understand what a god is, and what it is not. Gods, for the most part, are really just beings that others worship. Do you really believe, that first a being created his/her self, omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, then went on to create a universe, I have faith, but truly no one can actually be that naive.

They are not gods. Going back to reality for a moment. We are free to define god however we want. You can worship whomever you want but if they can't do the things you've attributed to them, then they are not gods. If I can't hear, understand, or grant an ascetic Indian man's prayer to god then I am not his god. If I heard and chose not to answer that's one thing. But the ancients are neither omniscient nor omnipresent.

By mine, and millions of others' definition of God, the Ancients do not fit the bill. They cannot and do not answer our prayers etc. Furthermore humans in SGs Milky Way don't worship them. No worshippers, no believers, no god.


No, but we aren't completely honest now are we?
In matters that concern them, yes we are.... as far as I recall. They know about our motives, they have their own as well.



It isn't the fact that they don't help us, that makes them, in my opinion, misleading. It's the fact, that they only break their supreme rule of non-interference, when their butts are on the line, if you aren't going to help, don't, I'd rather get there on my own. But, don't get involved only to help yourselves.

We do the exact same thing. We want the ancients to get involved only to save our asses although a large part of this problem is our own stupidity and curiosity. I assure you that if we won this with their interference, we'd resist suggestions from them on how to run our planet, should they choose to give them.

It's purely self serving. When we're not in dire straits we're perfectly OK with them not being here.



They are ascended beings, our condemnation shouldn't bother them one bit, help if you're going to, don't if you're not.

Against our desires? I think not. And it would be far easier for our condemnations not to bother them if they weren't involved. If we're condemning them and they're stiill doing what they do, then we're slaves to their will. We're not now, let's not go there.


They owe us nothing, but the Ori are a problem they should've dealt with long ago, especially if all they had to do was launch Merlin's anti-ascended being device through a Stargate, and call it a day.

That is assuming they could have done so. That weapon was built in the last ten thousand years, fairly recently. The Ori galaxy had probably been enslaved long before that, too late to fix that easily. Until just now, the Ori didn't know about us. There was no good reason to risk all out war for this especially since we don't know what the consequences of that would be for us, them, or everyone else.


You really believe, that by not trying to kill us, that they've proven something. The Ori, they only kill those who oppose them, granted for ascended beings this is a bit much, still we do the same. The Ori, the Ancients, I just think that there is a lot about both their motives, that we simply do not understand.!

By not trying to kill us or help us they've proven that they've moved on and we're free to do as we will with our lives and territory with no effect on them or without expecting, response or retribution. If we have to think about what they may or may not do or think for better or worse at all, we're not really free.

The same can't be said of the Ori. They dont need to be involved on our plane but they are. We can do without them but still, they interfere. We can take responsibility for our actions but they decide whats wrong or right. And the only reason they interfere is to suck up our energy. Not free.

At least we know the ancients aren't getting this from us because we're not exactly prostrating for six hours for them. That's at least one plus in their favor.


The same could be said of the Ori, they have their reasons, from their point of view, what they have done, and what they continue to do is for the betterment of all of mankind. What the Ancients do, is for the betterment of them, and only them.

How is mental enslavement to false gods who force you to kill in their name with none of their promised benefits to our benefit. How is eliminating all evidence of those who came before you, keeping you at a low level of technology for thousands of years, to the benefit of man?

At least when the ancients stay out of our business we get the option to suceed or fail according to our will, not theirs.

nano
April 27th, 2006, 06:04 AM
Good and evil is a point of view. :mckayanime09:

zpm!!
April 27th, 2006, 07:00 AM
Could be possible. Perhaps ascended beings appearances reflect their inner nature. The Ori being fiery and wrathful beings, Ancients being white peaceful beings and another type which included Anubis were...dark...empty inside, only wanted more and more.
funny if u look at it that way. good= light
bad= fire
evil anubis scum= dark chaos.
wraith= bluish therefore there just scum!!!!

LOL:cool:

zpm!!
April 27th, 2006, 07:03 AM
Good and evil is a point of view. :mckayanime09:

if and only if u are looking from the side lines!!!!

Scyld
April 27th, 2006, 07:27 AM
Good and evil is a point of view. :mckayanime09:

Actually, strictly speaking, they are not so much points of view as they are states of being. The difference between them is both simpler and more complex than you might guess. That difference is this: good is right and evil is wrong.

That is, goodness is in accordance with some higher principle or law, or closer in line with the true nature of reality, or the Divine (dare I say 'God?') in a way that evil is not and cannot be. Why? Because that's what 'good' means. Otherwise, you are not talking about good and evil at all, but rather 'the viewpoint I happen to prefer' as opposed to 'the viewpoint I happen not to prefer.'

Now, you can say 'I do not believe in good and evil,' but if so, then there's no use talking about them as anything at all (because you have plainly said that you do not believe they exist). But let's not fool ourselves into thinking that we can deny the 'rightness' of good or the 'wrongness' of evil and still be talking about the same thing.

jinntann
April 27th, 2006, 08:17 AM
good and evil are only what people think, the ori are not evil o themselves, and they thinlk others are eveil, vise versa for other races

Setesh
April 27th, 2006, 08:27 AM
Actually, strictly speaking, they are not so much points of view as they are states of being. The difference between them is both simpler and more complex than you might guess. That difference is this: good is right and evil is wrong.

That is, goodness is in accordance with some higher principle or law, or closer in line with the true nature of reality, or the Divine (dare I say 'God?') in a way that evil is not and cannot be. Why? Because that's what 'good' means. Otherwise, you are not talking about good and evil at all, but rather 'the viewpoint I happen to prefer' as opposed to 'the viewpoint I happen not to prefer.'

So basicly... the viewpoint you happen to prefer is good?

IcyNeko
April 27th, 2006, 10:11 AM
I think that most issues in Scifi reflect controversies that we see today. This is readily apparent in Battlestar Galactica (Sharon's baby and the drama following that), and also with the Ori/Alterrans. This is dangerous for Stargate, because people nowadays are locked in very similar mentalities if you believe it or not.

The Ori want the Alterrans dead because they are intolerant. They think their way is the only way, and that any other way is a lie. They go to extreme lengths to convert people, and would kill ancients on sight (Book of Origin). This is apparent in the way their jaf-.. priors teach. They use "worship the ori" rhetoric and teach though fear.

The Ancients researched another means to reach ascension. They tried technology, but in the end they still had to incorporate a spiritual aspect. But they incorporated a "anyone can do it their own way, but if they'd like to learn how to do it my way, they have to follow the path that I followed." (at least this was the case with Oma) This is a very open-minded approach.

Where this treads on modern day society is... think of the religious zealots out there. I'm talking about the Bin Ladens, the Pat Robertsons, the Westboro Baptist Church... they preach that people who follow any other path other than their flavor of Christianity is doomed to burn in the fires of hell. I'm sure if we let Robertson have command of the US Army, he'd wage a global crusade. Such is the way of the Ori.

It's people who have forgotten the true intent of religion that do this. They teach fear in order to exploit their followers and gain more power. Religion was created to help people reach their own state of inner peace.... how you get there is not as important as the fact that you're getting there.

I saw a video called "1 Giant Leap", where they interviewed various religious leaders in India about faith. It was so refreshing to see Christians, Jews, Muslims, Khrisna, Buddhists... all talking about finding inner peace through any means.. not cutting down each other's religions or starting fights. I think this is shown in the Ancient's path to Ascension... an open, wide road of life with many side roads.

Scyld
April 27th, 2006, 11:10 AM
So basicly... the viewpoint you happen to prefer is good?

No. The viewpoint that I happen to prefer is preferrable to me, but it is not necessarily good. Goodness, in order to be good, must also be right. That is, it must be correct. It must be in accordance with reality (with the Actual) in a way that evil is not and cannot be, or else it is not good at all, but merely 'the option that I happen to prefer.' Again, this is what good means.

I am not sure if I am explaining this very well. The words 'good' and 'evil' carry with them an assumption of basic moral right and moral wrong. Deny this assumption (and you are free to do so if you so choose), and the words lose their meaning.

Setesh
April 27th, 2006, 01:18 PM
No. The viewpoint that I happen to prefer is preferrable to me, but it is not necessarily good. Goodness, in order to be good, must also be right. That is, it must be correct. It must be in accordance with reality (with the Actual) in a way that evil is not and cannot be, or else it is not good at all, but merely 'the option that I happen to prefer.' Again, this is what good means.

I am not sure if I am explaining this very well. The words 'good' and 'evil' carry with them an assumption of basic moral right and moral wrong. Deny this assumption (and you are free to do so if you so choose), and the words lose their meaning.

Indeed. So an southern plantation owner in the 19th century would be right to call an abolotionist evil? He is messing up what has been right for hundreds of years, what is reality.

Say that in my world the moral right is the dominance of my race, nazis, Goul'd, slavers, you get the picture. In my world we are the good guys. Indeed for the better part of humanity slavery has not been seen as wrong except in very few places. Was the entire world evil at that time, or was the concepts of right and wrong just different?
In ancient greek "good" basicly translates as nobleman while evil also has a meaning as 'those that lie', the greek nobilitys way of describing the commoners. Indeed, in most indo-european societies good was equalled with being rich, powerful and couragous. A commoner was per definition spiritually lower standing, and thereby evil.

Scyld
April 27th, 2006, 03:14 PM
Indeed. So an southern plantation owner in the 19th century would be right to call an abolotionist evil? He is messing up what has been right for hundreds of years, what is reality.

You are looking at it from a 'shades of gray' mentality. Within the whole concept of 'Good and Evil' (note the capitalization), there exists the idea that morality exists independently of human beings. That there is a higher reality, and that goodness is measured by how closely our actions are in accordance with the Really Real. It does *not* mean that whatever we see around us is good by default.


Say that in my world the moral right is the dominance of my race, nazis, Goul'd, slavers, you get the picture. In my world we are the good guys. Indeed for the better part of humanity slavery has not been seen as wrong except in very few places. Was the entire world evil at that time, or was the concepts of right and wrong just different?

Assuming that our modern sensibilities are correct, then the entire world would have been evil at that time. Assuming that the very same morality that was preached back in the day (and is still preached today) is correct, then both the entire world at the time was evil, and the entire world today is evil.

I am not here saying that this is correct. I am only here defining the terminology. To invoke 'Good and Evil' is a serious thing.

Sauron18
April 27th, 2006, 08:04 PM
Well, knowing that the Ancients managed to achieve ascension through artificial means (most of them), it's quite possible that the Ori were those few who were evolved enough to do it naturally, and felt that using technology to ascend just undermined it.

This probably led to their corruption, and feeling insulted by the "artificial" evolutionary advancement of the ancients proceeded to boosting their egos by having followers, or had already done so.

Betelgeuze
April 28th, 2006, 10:28 AM
As we know the Ancient and the Ori were once one society on an evolutionary path to Ascension. Orlin said that the Alteran society split because the Ori became more fanatical in their religion, he also said that the Ancients believed in science. It is possible that the Ori wanted to focus completley on achieving ascension through religious/meditative means, while the Ancients wanted to explore other ways of ascending. This might have led the Ori to believe that they were the only ones who have the right to ascend.


Another reason why the Ori hate the Ancients could be us humans, we know that in the SG universe we are the second evolution of the Alterans, and that the Ancients recreated the humans in this galaxy. Know i don't know for sure if the Alterans created us the first time, or that we evolved naturally, but the Ori claim that they created humanity.

Now we know that the Ori think that humanity should worship them, while the Ancients believe in free will. The Ori were very angry when they found out that the Ancients kept the existence of human life in this galaxy a secret. The fact that there is an entire galaxy with humans who have not been indoctrinated with Origin, and therefore will be able to eventually achieve ascension threathens the Ori, who possibly believe they alone have the right to exist on a higher plane.