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GateWorld
January 2nd, 2006, 07:22 PM
<DIV ALIGN=CENTER><TABLE WIDTH=450 BORDER=0 CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=7><TR><TD><DIV ALIGN=LEFT><FONT FACE="Arial" SIZE=2 COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/sg1/s9/914.shtml"><IMG SRC="http://www.gateworld.net/sg1/graphics/914.jpg" WIDTH=160 HEIGHT=120 ALIGN=RIGHT HSPACE=10 VSPACE=2 BORDER=0 STYLE="border: 1px black solid" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#888888">SG-1 SEASON NINE</FONT>
<FONT SIZE=4><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/sg1/s9/914.shtml" STYLE="text-decoration: none"><B>STRONGHOLD</B></A></FONT>
<FONT SIZE=1>EPISODE NUMBER - 914</FONT>
<IMG SRC="/images/clear.gif" WIDTH=1 HEIGHT=10 ALT="">
Baal kidnaps Teal'c as part of a plot to brainwash those Jaffa advocating a move toward democracy. Cameron Mitchell learns that an old friend is about to die.

<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#888888"><B><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/sg1/s9/914.shtml">VISIT THE EPISODE GUIDE >></A></B>
SPOILERS! PHOTOS! AND MORE!</FONT></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

Skydiver
January 27th, 2006, 05:54 PM
I know that it's not quite over yet but Ripple Effect now has competition as far as i'm concerned.

i kinda like the jaffa stuff, it's nice to see teal'c actually earn his keep

i did think that the cameron B plot was super cheesy and silly adn let's not even go into the plot hole of leaving classified alien tech u nsecured in a hospital (why didn't cam move him to the sgc?????)

but the rest was good.

and the whole 'i told my father' bit, was horribly blown out of proportion in the spoilers

sniff, i'm sad to see baal go though

i really hope i'm wrong and it's one of his clones

Cinephilic TV Addict
January 27th, 2006, 05:58 PM
too many plot points for one episode - results in a few good parts but a mostly bad ep.

AGateFan
January 27th, 2006, 05:58 PM
Pretty Dakara.
Hey the female jaffa has got an actual name but she has annoyed Teal’c…Bad female Jaffa.
Interesting how all the ‘good and wise’ jaffa are Apophis jaffa (judging from the mark on their foreheads)
She’s a spy? Well that stinks… hopefully just a clone… guess the old guy will be replaced with a clone now too. Maybe Teal’c will be replaced with a clone too.

B story? Hmmm brand new guest character I have never heard of before is sick, too bad for him. Lets get on with the A story please.
Ha, I told you …. clones.
B story stuff.
Bra’tec at the SGC. Poor Teal’c but scene is a bit overdramatic.
Ahh captured Teal’c…. Brain washing instead of cloning, maybe?
B story.
Bra’tec and Daniel… Bra’tec is pppeeddddd.
Ahhh so they ARE being brainwashed.
Bra’tec, master of looking into peoples eyes, at least that’s continuity.
Man, this B story is really slowing things down.

Teal’c is not easy to brainwash. As I always suspected, Teal’c rules!!
Baal, nice suite, not exactly systemlordy is it?
Oh, so Teal’cs former brainwashing is why he can’t be brainwashed…. So what they all have to go through the Mal’sharak thing.

Baal… hahahahaha giving up the God thing… I like his flanged voice though.
Are they setting Baal up to be an Alley? You can never trust him.
He wants to be the leader of the jaffa counsel? Hahahahahaha… got news for you bud you may not be deluded enough to think you’re a god but you are indeed deluded.

You must face Mal’sharak with clear mind and conviction? Teal’c was clear minded and convicted last time? Hmm…ok whatever I do think this brainwashing is not as intense as Apophis’s stuff.

Seemed like when Jacob had this exact same B story it was far less annoying. Plus we actually knew who that character was because he was introduced an ep or so earlier so maybe that helped. Hey I hope Mitchell pays for that. …. OK, Good for him!!!

Yep, that was clear minded….good call Bra’tec.
Baal he’s going to say “no” so why even ask? Gee your going to kill him eh Baal? I am sure Teal’c never suspected that.

So they don’t have airmen that can deliver stuff, you got to use a Lt col who should be preparing for a big mission and make her delivery person? Okey Dokey.. That’s pretty cool that he will show that guy with the memory device.. Guess they are maintaining a treaty with those people after all….OK, we know you are going to show him can we get back on with the A story? A. Story. Please. 8:45PM. Hmm kirking joke.
Reynolds!!!!
Not sure just standing there while an alkesh shoots at you is a good idea jaffa boy.
Maybe someone should snipe the cannons.
Not a sound military decision, shades of Immotep. Sodan training didn’t appear to take.
Teal’c is faking him out…faaaakkkkeeee oooouuuuuttttt.
Yes, Baal, he is.
Hmmm Super Mitchell (much like Super Crichton) that’s disappointing but much expected from S9.
Clone Baal #3 is dead.
Daniel acting like Jack again.
Yeah, good guy jaffa win.

Hmmm disappointing ep. Soo much potential so much missed opportunity. Maybe next week will be better.

prion
January 27th, 2006, 06:00 PM
Wonder if tretonin prevents heart attacks and strokes? I think Teal’c has more stress now than ever before with the all the political garbage. I won’t lie; the political stuff is boring. And I could swear I’ve heard it all before in another episode.

Hmm, is Baal’s suit made out of drapes?

Alas, the Teal’c plot wasn’t very exciting. Baal’s becoming like a slick politician and I don’t recall him sounding so British before… and how many times have they already brainwashed Teal’c?

Sam’s hair looks dreadful. Quick, watch “Grace Under Pressure” to see how her hair SHOULD be styled. Alas, probably won’t happen. Maybe they have better hair products in the Pegasus Galaxy….

The Mitch subplot (plot B) was more interesting, although similar to Sam and her dad (dying, can’t tell classified information, but….).

I don’t know. The whole episode seemed sorta anti-climatic.

However, best scene was Mitch, in ‘bad mood today’ running into gou’ald ship and shooting everybody he saw. Alas, it was right at the end!

And Sam telling Daniel to stop playing handball.

And Mitch getting the letter about his friend passing away.

I’d give it a “C” for average.

MasterPower
January 27th, 2006, 06:01 PM
Very nice action at the end.
Stronghold is by far the best episode this season.

kharn the betrayer
January 27th, 2006, 06:03 PM
yet anouther Baal clone bites the dust (I hope as I love Baal)


I found this to be an Ok ep

nice to see Sam kicking butt again plus Baal :wub:

Seshat
January 27th, 2006, 06:03 PM
Was I the only one who was bored out of their mind by this ep? I really liked the Jaffa stuff (and gosh, when have I EVER said THAT?), but the Mitchell stuff was just...ugh...as predictable as watching paint dry. Loved seeing Ba'al...yup, I'd bet anything that was one of his clones. Ba'al's waaay too smart to get killed off so easily. :) And what was with Sam opening and working on the control panel in full view and line of sight for the "bad" jaffa weapons...and NOT ONE hit her with a zat blast?? Geez, these guys were worse shots than ever before. Even I could have hit her. Brainwashing must really affect jaffa aim. ;)

NowIWillDestroyAbydos
January 27th, 2006, 06:03 PM
Good episode. I give it a ***. Best visual effects of the Al'kesh ever in the series.

The music at the end of the ep, what episdoe did I hear it in?

JastersLegacy
January 27th, 2006, 06:15 PM
<exits lurking mode>

*raises hand* Favorite episode so far this season. If there was anything that bugged me, it was the Jaffa politics (but politics bore me anyway, so don't listen to my biased opinion). Thankfully there really wasn't that much in the way of politics this ep though.

I loved the Mitchell plot. I think because of this episode, I officially love the charachter. I like that he's becoming his own charachter now, without seeming like a Jack O'Neill clone.

*nods* Good ep. Very nice.

Dani347
January 27th, 2006, 06:23 PM
Hey, Headmaster Charleston is a Jaffa! (Gilmore Girls fan here) Well, that took me right out of the story.

Hmm, I wonder about the whole gender thing with the Jaffa. I think Teal'c doesn't doubt that women are equal warriors (working with Sam all these years, than meeting Ish'ta convinced him of that) but he still seems to have some old fashioned (very old, I'm guessing) ideas.

I wonder if Ba'al is denying his godship to everyone, or did he just do it with Teal'c, because he knows that it won't work and he had to use another tactic?

Yay! Daniel and Bra'tac work together. I remember there was another episode I think last season where spoilers indicated that they would have some scenes together but it didn't happen in the actual episode. Okay, Daniel didn't do any solving of anything, but it was Bra'tac's turf, so obviously Bra'tac would take the lead. But, he did figure out for himself that Jaffa Charleston had been brainwashed and that he was ashamed. Just a bit of him making jumps with his mind. And, I liked how pleased Daniel was to hear that the referendum (sp?) had passed. And, Sam gets irritated at him when he's throwing the ball (um, why did he have a ball with him on a rescue mission?) which I liked seeing.

Okay, I do think they could have given Mitchell a better plot, or put him with the rest of the team for more of the episode. But, I think they might have changed a couple of things. I don't know if it was originally written into the script that he asked permission to tell dying friend everything. Maybe they heard some howls about that? And, I also seem to recall Sam originally saying that she might have told Pete anyway. I did think it was interesting that she asked him if telling his friend would change his (Mitchell's) guilt. And, also that Mitchell felt it was hypocritical to pull strings to use the memory device when he had become opposed to it after his experiences.

And, I was sooo afraid that all we were going to get was Mitchell telling us that he was impatient. I'm guessing that's his Achilles Heel, and I didn't want that to be like hearing some report. I would rather have just seen him acting impatiently without the announcement, because it still felt kind of contrived, but it was better than all tell no show.

Nice to see Sam being soldiery.

Skydiver

adn let's not even go into the plot hole of leaving classified alien tech u nsecured in a hospital (why didn't cam move him to the sgc?????)

I was thinking the same thing.


Daniel acting like Jack again.

When?

eta: Can I vote Bra'tac leader of the Jaffa?

Lt. Colonel Ryu Gaia
January 27th, 2006, 06:34 PM
Excellent ep, and it truly is up to the standards of old episodes. Second half of the season has been amazing so far.
As for the leaving the tech in the hospital, the doctor mentioned that it had access to more things than most - I think that it's working with the SGC, testing out new medical technologies brought back. The doctor knew about what was happenning, and mentioned that the patient hadn't got clearance, and then asked Mitchell how many strings he had to pull to get Ferguson in there without clearance.

Dani347
January 27th, 2006, 06:48 PM
Excellent ep, and it truly is up to the standards of old episodes. Second half of the season has been amazing so far.
As for the leaving the tech in the hospital, the doctor mentioned that it had access to more things than most - I think that it's working with the SGC, testing out new medical technologies brought back. The doctor knew about what was happenning, and mentioned that the patient hadn't got clearance, and then asked Mitchell how many strings he had to pull to get Ferguson in there without clearance.

That could explain it. Still, what if family stopped by or something?

Battousai the Manslayer
January 27th, 2006, 06:49 PM
I really liked this quite a lot. We actually saw machine gun fire, space ship battles, Baal!! Mitchell was awesome when he busted the coffee machine and then went in to save Teal'c gung ho style...I believe his character is finally being formed-and I like it quite a lot.

Oh, and Braytac was brilliant in this episode. I especially loved when he choked the Jaffa who was lying to him. This really felt up to the quality of the original seasons...I'm not just an old season purist, most of my favorite moments in this episode were from Mitchell.:cameron:

nccjones
January 27th, 2006, 06:50 PM
Can we say boring?! This episode was like watching paint dry. What was with Mitchell and his dying friend? Why should I care about his friend? I can't even remember his name. How is this supposed to help us know Mitchell? Well, I really don't care for Mitchell, but I think a better way is to learn about him with the team. Come to mention it, we did learn something about him with the team. He's brash and takes off on his own without backup.

Why couldn't Sam and Daniel go up with Mitchell and why was it Mitchell who went up? He's never fought Jaffa before and they let him go single handed? Made absolute NO sense. And the excuse of not having a way back down didn't fly. I seem to remember the team going into a ship together thinking they were going to go down together, and technically, Daniel did kind of die in that epi.

Teal'c. Jaffa stories bore me but this one wasn't too bad, probably because I was FF through all the Mitchell stuff. But I always like Teal'c...I love his smile.

Daniel was good in this episode. Sometimes I miss the young Daniel of yesteryears, but he had to grow up and become macho (no complaints). If anything, he should have been the one to go up in the rings to get Teal'c.

Sam was great. She can definately lead.

Did I say this was boring? Oh yeah, I did. Well, another week and TPTB haven't made me like Mitchell anymore than 14 episodes ago. I'm sorry, he needs to go. I really don't want to see him return in the 10th season. TPTB had plenty of time to have him meld with team and it's not happening. I just don't feel the love, it's still feeling forced to me.

warmbeachbrat
January 27th, 2006, 06:57 PM
yet anouther Baal clone bites the dust (I hope as I love Baal)

Naahh--three staff blasts to take out Ba'al? I don't think so! He'll be back.


Hmm, is Baal’s suit made out of drapes?

:eek: Hey, I like Ba'al's outfit!

Speaking of Ba'al--rather interesting notions he's picked up. I wonder if he's sincere or if it's some new, nefarious plan. Maybe a little bit of both.


i did think that the cameron B plot was super cheesy and silly adn let's not even go into the plot hole of leaving classified alien tech u nsecured in a hospital (why didn't cam move him to the sgc?????)

Yeah, I thought the same thing (and good point about moving his buddy to the SGC).


And what was with Sam opening and working on the control panel in full view and line of sight for the "bad" jaffa weapons...and NOT ONE hit her with a zat blast?? Geez, these guys were worse shots than ever before. Even I could have hit her. Brainwashing must really affect jaffa aim.
LOL! I must confess I was wondering about the poor aim, also. Blaming brainwashing sounds good to me!

It was nice seeing Bra'tac again, but the whole Jaffa politics thing is just not that interesting to me. Well, except it's nice they finally have self-rule. At the rate they've been killing everyone off, I was a trifle worried that Tea'lc would do him in. I was thinking how absolutely awful that would be for Tea'lc, and Bra'tac is one of my favorites--I would really hate to see him go (especially if he were killed by Tea'lc).

I really like the way they're handling Sam and Cam's friendship. Little moments here and there--very nice.

Dani347
January 27th, 2006, 06:57 PM
The scene where Bra'tac had his hand around the Jaffa's throat reminded me a bit of Prisoners, where Teal'c did the same thing to one of the prisoners who had apparently been bothering Daniel. Daniel still reacted (sort of like when Black Daniel asked Black Teal'c if zatting our Mitchell wouldn't have been easier) but he's no longer shocked by seeing that. I thought it was a nice look at how his experiences have made him evolve and how he's still the same, too. Although, I have a feeling the connection to Prisoners wasn't on the writer's mind when that scene was put in. Still, I'm glad I saw it.

BTW, why do episodes mention having "excerpts" written by RCC? What excerpts?

eta: I'm assuming the female Jaffa at the begining was brainwashed? Did Ba'al brainwash her, or did they explain?

warmbeachbrat

At the rate they've been killing everyone off, I was a trifle worried that Tea'lc would do him in. I was thinking how absolutely awful that would be for Tea'lc, and Bra'tac is one of my favorites--I would really hate to see him go (especially if he were killed by Tea'lc).

Same here. I just knew Bra'tac was going to get killed, and I was going to have to have a little talk with some writers about that stupid idea. Glad it didn't go that way.

eta (and I've been editing this darn post about 4 times already): Is it usually this quiet after an episode? I was expecting a lot more posts from people saying how much they loved it, hated it, loved part of it -but, hated most of it-except, or couldn't care less. Just more talk about it any which way.

michelleb
January 27th, 2006, 07:10 PM
was pete mentioned? i heard he might be

AGateFan
January 27th, 2006, 07:11 PM
was pete mentioned? i heard he might be
Yes, but not in the annoying way it was thought he would be. Not sure if that was a re-write or if the original spoiler was wrong.

Lt. Colonel Ryu Gaia
January 27th, 2006, 07:12 PM
It was slightly predictable, although I expected that as soon as they handed Teal'c the weapon he would go at Ba'al.

Dani347
January 27th, 2006, 07:15 PM
Yes, but not in the annoying way it was thought he would be. Not sure if that was a re-write or if the original spoiler was wrong.

Do you mean Sam saying she might have told him without permission? I remember seeing something like that in the spoilers. I think after they write it where we see Mitchell asking permission first, it made that whole thing moot. Mitchell obviously didn't war with himself about whether or not to tell dying friend (I am so tempted to call him Dead Meat, but feel I might get jumped on for poor taste:D ) without permission. He only warred with himself as to whether or not to ask for permission so he could tell.

Dromag67
January 27th, 2006, 07:17 PM
Fun episode.

The Good:

Some insight into how Cam got into the x302 program.

Lots of Brat'ac!

Brat'ac using the Alkesh bomber.

Sam leading all the troops into an awesome battle.

Great to see the Jaffa finally getting their act together.

More Ba'al!!!!!!!!!!!

Teal'c owns Ba'al!




The not so Good:

The whole dying friend thing wasn't too gripping, although I enjoyed Cam destroying the candy machine.

Cam running around the battlefield like a maniac, your a colonel get your act together.

Cam pushing Teal'c away at the end when he was only trying to help, it could of been a great T&C bonding scene.

Seshat
January 27th, 2006, 07:17 PM
BTW, why do episodes mention having "excerpts" written by RCC? What excerpts? That would have been the fighter sequences flashbacks with Mitchell from Avalon. RCC wrote that.

AGateFan
January 27th, 2006, 07:22 PM
Do you mean Sam saying she might have told him without permission? I remember seeing something like that in the spoilers. I think after they write it where we see Mitchell asking permission first, it made that whole thing moot. Mitchell obviously didn't war with himself about whether or not to tell dying friend (I am so tempted to call him Dead Meat, but feel I might get jumped on for poor taste:D ) without permission. He only warred with himself as to whether or not to ask for permission so he could tell.
Exactly. So they may have re-ordered that from the original script.
Or the spoilers could simply have been wrong.

It would be wrong (and illegal) for either of them to blab without permission and I would think less of either of them if they gave "serious" consideration to doing so (not passing consideration as that is just normal but serious consideration, and then admitting to it later. That would just weaken the character IMHO).

nccjones
January 27th, 2006, 07:24 PM
Cam running around the battlefield like a maniac, your a colonel get your act together.

Cam pushing Teal'c away at the end when he was only trying to help, it could of been a great T&C bonding scene.

I like that comment about getting his act together because he's a Colonel. I felt that scene showed that he was not trustworthy or dependable so early in his introduction. Having a bad day doesn't justify being stupid on the battlefield. He needs to learn to separate his emotions when he's off-world.

You know, I kind of fast-forwarded through the Teal'c and Mitchell moment and I thought it was a bonding moment, so I'm surprised to hear that Mitchell pushed him away. Now how is that supposed to bond him to the team? Is he going to constantly be a brooding character with moments of stupid one line quips the rest of the year? Again, TPTB are really screwing up with this character. It's like they are trying too hard for the fans to like him instead of just letting the storylines flow. I hope we are done with the flashbacks and outside SGC storylines. They wasted precious moments that we could have seen either Sam, Daniel or Teal'c.

Dani347
January 27th, 2006, 07:27 PM
That would have been the fighter sequences flashbacks with Mitchell from Avalon. RCC wrote that.

Thanks.

I've decided (or I've discovered) that I'm a character watcher. I mean, I like a basically good plot, but any episode that has nice character moments already starts off from a solid grounding point for me. And, I thought this had nice moments for all of them. Teal'c seething at the council meeting, and the talk at the end with Mitchell. And, I liked the Mitchell and Sam scene, and the questions it brought up. And, I really liked Daniel and Bra'tac together, and I honestly didn't see anything Jack-like, not even in the "he's spent 8 years working closely with the man, and things are bound to rub off" kind of way. And, it was a tiny little thing, but like I said, I enjoyed the scene with Sam and Daniel. It just felt natural between the two of them. So, just for those moments alone, this episode has enough to make me like it.

But, funny, for an episode that I suppose was a split between a Teal'c and Mitchell episode, I really didn't latch on too much to the main plot of either of their stories. Like I said, the most interesting part of Mitchell's story was him talking to Sam and then Teal'c. Although I did notice when he was playing the video game with his friend and it dawned on him that the friend was tiring out. And, the whole brainwashing torture scenes really didn't grab me.

I also would have done the impatience thing differently. Not only would I not have announced it, I would have maybe shown some small hints of it in earlier episodes.

eta: As much as bonding is great and all, from a character standpoint (and not even Mitchell in particular) I think not opening up to Teal'c or figuratively coming in for a hug (please note the figurative in this sentence. i couldn't think of another way to convey the opposite of pushing him away, but I hope you get my meaning) made sense. A close friend of Mitchell's is going to die, because of actions he did to save Mitchell. And, even though his friend tried to alleviate the guilt, Mitchell does still feel guilty. Both those things would make it natural for anyone to want to brood alone. And, I think Mitchell has a tendency to want to go off by himself when he's feeling guilty. Sort of like in CD, when he was alone in the lockerroom at the end until Landry showed up. I think it's an interesting character trait, and actually I like finding out about that more than the impatience, since it didn't feel telegraphed.

michelleb
January 27th, 2006, 07:32 PM
So what did Sam actually say about Pete?

AGateFan
January 27th, 2006, 07:34 PM
So what did Sam actually say about Pete?
She was trying to console Mitchell because he felt guilty about telling his friend (after he got permission so I am not entirely clear on why)... She said that she told her dad and Pete and Mitchell countered with her dad became a tokra (i think, cant rember) and pete was shot by a goa'uld (do remember this).

michelleb
January 27th, 2006, 07:36 PM
She was trying to console Mitchell because he felt guilty about telling his friend (after he got permission so I am not entirely clear on why)... She said that she told her dad and Pete and Mitchell countered with her dad became a tokra (i think, cant rember) and pete was shot by a goa'uld (do remember this).

thanks. well, i was expecting worse from the pete convo, so that's ok

ToasterOnFire
January 27th, 2006, 07:39 PM
Ba'al + Ori = Great Ba'als of Fire!! :D :D

I'll agree - this is the best episode of the season so far. Granted the Mitch subplot was rather boring and the endless needling from his friend was irksome, but I really enjoyed the Jaffa politics and all the scenes with Ba'al. He's the GQ of the Goa'uld.

I'm having a memory lapse (pun! pun!), but was the machine Mitch gave his buddy from the Collateral Damage planet? Kinda hard to see Mitch being okay about a device that played a role in framing him for murder and watching him kill a woman over and over.

Normal Mitch is much more likeable than one-liner frat boy Mitch. Keep that coming. Always good to see more Teal'c screentime, and anything with Bra'tac is always appreciated. And was it just me, or did this ep seem a little Daniel-lite?

I never get tired of seeing Sam in charge. :D

Seshat
January 27th, 2006, 07:42 PM
So what did Sam actually say about Pete?
Cam: Does this make me a hypocrite? (referring to telling his friend about the SGC et al.)
Sam: I told my dad.
Cam: He was getting a Tok'ra symbiote.
Sam: Pete...
Cam: Got shot by a goa'uld with a laser blaster. That's not really the point. I'm talking about using that thing. I mean after what happened to me I was opposed to anyone ever having anything to do with that technology, and now I'm going out of my way to make use of it...

etc....that's all she says.

Dani347
January 27th, 2006, 07:45 PM
I'm having a memory lapse (pun! pun!), but was the machine Mitch gave his buddy from the Collateral Damage planet? Kinda hard to see Mitch being okay about a device that played a role in framing him for murder and watching him kill a woman over and over.

Yes, it was. And, he did mention that it was hypocritcal (although I think he was also talking about just telling his friend about the program) for him to want to use it.


And was it just me, or did this ep seem a little Daniel-lite?

Didn't seem that way to me. I think it was like Madeleine said in the thread for Collateral Damage. Even if he didn't have a lot of screen time (and I didn't think it was really that little, from my perspective, although it was less than Teal'c or Mitchell) he was still being effective, looking through the reports, figuring things out, being happy about the vote. So, the quality made it good for Daniel. IMO, of course.

BTW, who wrote this episode?

AGateFan
January 27th, 2006, 07:51 PM
WRITTEN BY - Alan McCullough
DIRECTED BY - Peter DeLuise

I think hes the new guy that did prototype.. dissappointing for me as I loved prototype but notsomuch with this one.

Seshat
January 27th, 2006, 07:54 PM
BTW, who wrote this episode?
Allan McCullough, who also wrote Prototype. He's also written the upcoming Off the Grid and Arthur's Mantle.

Lt. Colonel Ryu Gaia
January 27th, 2006, 07:54 PM
He's not that bad. Prototype, although okay, fell a little short of Stronghold, which I thought was great.

Dani347
January 27th, 2006, 08:01 PM
Ah. I didn't think this gelled overall as well as Prototype, but like I said, there were a lot of things I liked about it.

Also nice of a new writer to make reference to old episodes.

FoolishPleasure
January 27th, 2006, 08:01 PM
I rather liked this episode, though there were some "iffy" moments.

Always nice to learn more about Mitchell (Browder did a very good job), and that's what the B plot was for, although I didn't care for his friend needling him for info. I wanted Mitchell to tell him to shut up at one point. And leaving that equipment at the hospital was just stupid. The guy got his joy ride - Mitchell should have taken the case with him when he left.

Our Bra'tac times are such a joy - I love Tony.

Another Ba'al clone bites the dust. Wonder where the next one will turn up. ;)

Overall a nice episode. Anything that followed "Ripple Effect" was going to be a let down. But I give this one a "B".

chocdoc
January 27th, 2006, 08:02 PM
The good:

Sam in charge! Very nice to see. Go soldier sam.

I liked the Sam and Mitchell conversation--a good one between friends (and not at all like the spoilers had suggested).

I like all of Sam and Daniel's looks with each other and one of the last scenes with Daniel bouncing the ball against the wall. I also liked the scene right after with Sam, Daniel, Teal'c and Bra'tac--their excitement and happiness with the Jaffa Council decision.

I liked the faster pace of the episode in the end.



The not-so-good:

I'm just a bit bored with the Jaffa stuff by now, and I'm definitely tired of seeing Teal'c tortured yet again.

The Mitchell story with his friend just didn't do much for me.


The really really not-so-good: Why did Mitchell go storming off on his own on the battlefield! Not a good move by the writers for this character, AGAIN. He was supposed to follow orders on this one---he was not in the lead. I guess this was to show his impulsive and hotheaded side? Not a good idea on the battlefield. It's a good thing Sam and Daniel followed him and saved his butt. It's also a good thing that Sam could make the rings work. In this episode, we are to see once again that Mitchell is a "hero". Not working for me (and I like Mitchell). He was reckless, and was not a team player in this one. This character needs credibility, not less, and his actions here lessen his credibility as a military team leader, IMO.

Dani347
January 27th, 2006, 08:08 PM
The really really not-so-good: Why did Mitchell go storming off on his own on the battlefield! Not a good move by the writers for this character, AGAIN. He was supposed to follow orders on this one---he was not in the lead. I guess this was to show his impulsive and hotheaded side? Not a good idea on the battlefield. It's a good thing Sam and Daniel followed him and saved his butt. It's also a good thing that Sam could make the rings work. In this episode, we are to see once again that Mitchell is a "hero". Not working for me (and I like Mitchell). He was reckless, and was not a team player in this one. This character needs credibility, not less, and his actions here lessen his credibility as a military team leader, IMO.

It did feel like a rickety way of showing his impatient side. I like the idea that they actually wanted to show it, and even that they didn't use flashbacks again, but showed it within the action now, but it still wasn't as effective, because I felt the strings there (we said Mitchell is impatient. Well, these people want to see it, so we have to write a scene where he acts impatient). Although, I wouldn't mind seeing him do something impatient or messing up if it flowed a bit more naturally, and I didn't feel like I was in an editing session.

darman
January 27th, 2006, 08:09 PM
The really really not-so-good: Why did Mitchell go storming off on his own on the battlefield! Not a good move by the writers for this character, AGAIN. He was supposed to follow orders on this one---he was not in the lead. I guess this was to show his impulsive and hotheaded side? Not a good idea on the battlefield. It's a good thing Sam and Daniel followed him and saved his butt. It's also a good thing that Sam could make the rings work. In this episode, we are to see once again that Mitchell is a "hero". Not working for me (and I like Mitchell). He was reckless, and was not a team player in this one. This character needs credibility, not less, and his actions here lessen his credibility as a military team leader, IMO.

The reason he stormed off during the battle I believe is directly related to the conversation he had with his friend. Mitchell felt guilty his friend got hurt because he was impatient, but then his friend told him he shouldn't worry about that due to circumstances of his job and that it's understandable.

tsaxlady
January 27th, 2006, 08:11 PM
Overall I enjoyed the episode.

Liked

Bra'tac - Hoping he is the new head of the Jaffa council
Teal'c - great to see him as more than just Wallpaper
Sam leading the rescue mission
Ba'al - My favorite ex-System Lord - anytime he shows up it's a good thing


Not crazy about the Mitchell B story

binkpmmc
January 27th, 2006, 08:11 PM
I like that comment about getting his act together because he's a Colonel. I felt that scene showed that he was not trustworthy or dependable so early in his introduction. Having a bad day doesn't justify being stupid on the battlefield. He needs to learn to separate his emotions when he's off-world.

You know, I kind of fast-forwarded through the Teal'c and Mitchell moment and I thought it was a bonding moment, so I'm surprised to hear that Mitchell pushed him away. Now how is that supposed to bond him to the team? Is he going to constantly be a brooding character with moments of stupid one line quips the rest of the year? Again, TPTB are really screwing up with this character. It's like they are trying too hard for the fans to like him instead of just letting the storylines flow. I hope we are done with the flashbacks and outside SGC storylines. They wasted precious moments that we could have seen either Sam, Daniel or Teal'c.

To the people who said boring - I agree - I just woke up and watched it on tape and I really had high hopes for this one - once again disappointed.

This pretty much solidified for me that Mitchell is not up to par for this team that is SG1 - again he is shown to lack judgment (in spades this time) and is immature. All I can say is thank God he was not in charge - what a disaster. Lt. Colonel clearly disobeying/ignoring orders (Carter was clearly in charge here) and running off into a firefight and, once again, getting beaten up (that Mitchell in peril bit is reallly reallly getting boring) because he's upset clearly shows a lack of maturity IMO. If he was that upset he should have excused himself from the mission not jeopardized himself and the rest of his teammates with irresponsible behaviour (those Jaffa at the rings should have shot him.) A five year old runs off and slams his fists on the floor when he doesn't get his way - a Lt. Colonel on a rescue mission and involved in a firefight does not run off alone into a battlefield, all the while ignoring orders, over his friends situation, a five year old runs off and ignores his parents orders not a Lt. Colonel even if he is upset. Stay home if you are that upset - don't be a jerk in the field. The thing I finally figured out after asking over and over again what he brings to the team is that what he seems to bring to the team is to get beaten up or to get into trouble so the rest of the team has something to do, besides save the world, etc., they also save Mitchell.

The whole thing with Mitchell going after Teal'c seemed contrived, forced and unnatural - again - but that has become SOP for S9 just like Landry saying Teal'c is family - he's known Teal'c for 14 episodes - it's forced and unnatural. It all seems to me like TPTB trying waaay too hard to get people to like and accept Mitchell by forcing these unnatural and contrived scenes. I have nothing invested in Mitchell so I have less than nothing to care about with this dying friend of his so this whole storyline was a fast-forward situation for me. Mitchell's time would be better spent with the team and trying to show the 4 of them as a team - not that it is working when they are together - but if he spent even a little more time in situations with the team, whether it be firefights where they are a team and not with him running off in a Rambo-like snit shooting things up because he's mad, or just spending time together as a team the way the real SG1 did maybe he would be a little more credible. (That whole scene clearly shows he should not be co-leader of the team - he is not prepared and he is not ready.)

Daniel and Carter good stuff. Carter clearly is the leader of this team - she is kick-a$$ and the SGC knows it - leading the whole shootin match into battle to rescue Teal'c - we need more of that and we should have seen Teal'c, Carter and Daniel together after Teal'c's rescue there has not been enough of that - the 3 original teammates still seem like strangers. They are trying too hard to force Mitchell into a well-rounded, well-oiled machine that is Sam, Teal'c and Daniel and it's not working IMO, it's actually keeping the team apart and distant. Bra'tac - great stuff too. That guy is great - someone else said somewhere that they should have put Bra'tac on SG1 and I agree Bra'tac would have been a great addition over Mitchell.

Oh well - as the saying goes, give it time it's only the 14th episode . . . . Maybe next week will be better - can you see me turning blue?

AGateFan
January 27th, 2006, 08:13 PM
The reason he stormed off during the battle I believe is directly related to the conversation he had with his friend. Mitchell felt guilty his friend got hurt because he was impatient, but then his friend told him he shouldn't worry about that due to circumstances of his job and that it's understandable.
yes, but it is still highly unprofessional response.
I just figured he had the guilt thing going so he was trying to get himself killed.... I know I have seen\heard that on some other show and it seemed like the same thing... Very notsogood for his character.

Siloh
January 27th, 2006, 08:14 PM
Been lurking here for years... time to come out of hiding and comment on an episode. :)

I'm not sure anybody pointed this out, but the Hospital was definately a secure facility.

From season 2's "In The Line of Duty":

"Janet Frasier - In addition to being chief medical officer at the SGC, Doctor Frasier has an office at the United States Air Force Academy Hospital nearby."

It's where they send large amounts of injured off-worlders when the SGC is ill-equipped to handle them.

Was good to see Baal get what was coming to him... again.

The side story was kind-of cliche, but I felt that the guy was a really good character, possibly one of the most "normal" people we've seen in Stargate history (even moreso than the various reporters and red shirts).

So for once we didn't completely cut trade with a world just because of morales. Nice.

A mothership can park on a pyramid? Is this the first time we've seen a full-blown mothership (as opposed to a plain vanilla pyramid ship, like that of Ra or Osiris) land on a pyramid?

Good stuff - 4/5.

EDIT: It was also good to see (hear?) the return of the music sequences from Abyss.

Dani347
January 27th, 2006, 08:16 PM
yes, but it is still highly unprofessional response.
I just figured he had the guilt thing going so he was trying to get himself killed.... I know I have seen\heard that on some other show and it seemed like the same thing... Very notsogood for his character.

Oh, I hope they don't give him some kind of death wish.

ToasterOnFire
January 27th, 2006, 08:23 PM
Yes, it was. And, he did mention that it was hypocritcal (although I think he was also talking about just telling his friend about the program) for him to want to use it.
Thanks for that. :)


The fight scene with Mitch was rather odd - he's a confessed hothead yet he charges right into the battle and leaves everyone behind?

Another thing - I noticed that some of the scenes had a more "wobbly" feel to the camera. Now I know they did some experimenting with this in Collateral Damage during the memory scenes, but I don't really remember them filming this way with normal scenes. Are they taking cues from BSG?

IMForeman
January 27th, 2006, 08:24 PM
Sister Kal'el? Sister Superman? Oh, well.

Baal is so very cool.

Uber
January 27th, 2006, 08:35 PM
Wow.

What a crushing disappointment. Seriously painfully crushing blow.

We won't go into the fact that Mitchell apparently was allowed to leave the alien technology in his friend's room as he ran off to rescue Teal'c (not "help" rescue Teal'c, mind you, or work as part of a team...but actually go in and do it all by himself)...because that deserves a scathing post all of its own.

I liked Mitchell a little with his friend but this "woe is me/i don't deserve anything" attitude is getting old (same 'tude from Collateral Damage as he was reliving killing friendlys). So he feels guilty about what happened to his friend because of his impetuousness and yet apparently has done nothing to change that in himself (reference Mr. "I thought it was a light switch" from Prototype, the poor coffee machine and his incredibly reprimandworthy actions in battle in Stronghold). He learned nothing from his supposed "aha" moment where he acknowledges he cost his friend his life.

So whatever little respect I gained for Mitchell during his time with his friend, I lost ten-fold when he showed what an impetuous idiot he is on the battlefield...ignoring the others, ignoring Sam, who was in charge of the operation. Even when she ordered him to wait for backup, he ignored her and charged head on, forcing Daniel and Sam to abruptly abandon their positions to follow him. In other words, he endangered the lives of his team and the success of the mission because he is too impetuous.

I don't buy that Sam would have allowed him to go up to the mothership alone. That's just stupid. And IF it's because, as she said, she knew she couldn't stop him, that further proves he has no business being on the team. They are a team and they would have gone together to rescue Teal'c. Sam and Daniel would have gone up with him and they would have sabotaged that ring platform to prevent anyone from following. Further they...AS A TEAM...would have worked together AS A TEAM to rescue Teal'c AS A TEAM.

But no. Super!Mitchell (trademark pending) rushes in and takes everyone out on the ground and in the mothership. Did they bother ringing Daniel and Sam to the ship to help out? Who knows? But with Super!Mitchell by their side, Teal'c and Bratac were sure to clear out an entire mothership of Jaffa. By themselves.

So it's not the team...it's all Mitchell. Super!Mitchell goes on his own and takes out all the jaffa? Are you serious? And what, Daniel and Sam are just waiting in the ring room on the ground taking out any incoming Jaffa? Please.

I don't find the impetuousness endearing at all. I do however see it as my last straw with this character, who has proven beyond the shadow of a doubt to me that he has no business being on a team, much less the flagship team, MUCH LESS supposedly "co-leading" said team.

Congratulations to the PTB for successfully sabotaging the Mitchell character to the point where I don't think I'll ever like him. Also, congratulations on taking a pretty cool premise and turning it into an incredible COP OUT.

the fifth man
January 27th, 2006, 08:35 PM
Overall, I really enjoyed this episode. I'd have to give it a three out of four stars. The Jaffa politics don't bother me like they do some people, and of course I loved seeing our buddy Ba'al again. He just gets better and better. I mean come on, admitting that the Goa'uld may have gone a little far in their role-playing as Gods. That alone was priceless.:) I actually liked the Mitchell side-story as well, and the action at the end was great. Nice moment between Mitchell and Teal'c at the end, too.

Bobthespirit
January 27th, 2006, 08:36 PM
Hmm...first off, let me say that I have been watching the Stargates at 11 and 12 because I don't want the commercials for Battlestar Galactica to spoil it for me. So, I've only seen the first 2/3 of this episode.

So far, the episode seems to be a return to being more Stargate-like. The start of the season...Mitchell and Vala didn't seem organic enough; too TV-character-ish. And every episode was about the Ori who were unstoppable at the time, and fairly one dimensional, not to mention the pryors' powers being a hack of the jedi.

But, in this episode, Mitchell is seeming very human and the characters are three dimensional. For the first time this season I find myself interested how the episode will end. Maybe the junk at the start of the season was just a hiccup.

If Stargate stays good like this I'm willing to look at the start of the season as just a 'breaking in period' for Mitchell and the Ori that didn't go very well.

Seshat
January 27th, 2006, 08:40 PM
And what, Daniel and Sam are just waiting in the ring room on the ground taking out any incoming Jaffa? Please. I just have one question...when are the evil Jaffa ever gonna learn how to use tear gas, huh?

AGateFan
January 27th, 2006, 08:42 PM
I just have one question...when are the evil Jaffa ever gonna learn how to use tear gas, huh?
Tear gas? Maybe they could try using one of those magic eight-ball stun grenades they always have when it’s convenient for the plot, but never have when it’s actually needed to win a fight.

the fifth man
January 27th, 2006, 08:43 PM
I just have one question...when are the evil Jaffa ever gonna learn how to use tear gas, huh?

Never. If they were smart enough to, this show would have been over way back in Season 1.:)

Uber
January 27th, 2006, 08:46 PM
The thing is that the cool things of this episode...the battle itself, Sam in command (which felt OH so natural btw)...are completely overshadowed by the massive COP OUT of Super!Mitchell putting his team in danger on the ground, ignoring orders and saving the day all by his lonesome.

The man should be ordered to wear spandex tights and a cape now.

Seshat
January 27th, 2006, 08:48 PM
Never. If they were smart enough to, this show would have been over way back in Season 1.:)
Silly me. I figured Ba'al's evil brainwashed Jaffa would have picked up a new trick or two from the master. :P And I guess the shock grenade factory was closed... :rolleyes:

the fifth man
January 27th, 2006, 08:50 PM
The man should be ordered to wear spandex tights and a cape now.

Funny :) , but a tad extreme if you ask me.

AGateFan
January 27th, 2006, 08:50 PM
Funny :) , but a tad extreme if you ask me.
Well they are going to be wearing leather in a few weeks... maybe they are going for the X-men look.

MasySyma
January 27th, 2006, 08:56 PM
After the disaster that was Ripple Effect, I was worried about this week's episode, but it turned out ok. It's not my favorite of the season, but it deserves an 8.5-9/10.

I usually find the Jaffa plot a bit dry, but tonight it was well done. The writers did an excellent job of incorporating former story lines, and the only thing I missed was Teal'c son. Is the boy still on his honey moon? The cost of leadership and the development of the Jaffa are coming along nicely.

The Mitchell storyline was a bit cliche, but it worked. I agree with the posters who argue that his subsequent behavior evolved from the discussion with his friend. The final scene with Teal'c was well done, and the battle scene was important.

(Please don't flame me for the following statements) :)
The battle scene illustrated the point that Mitchell's friend made: Good leaders sometimes break the rules and "do" instead of "think." Sam is an acceptable team leader, but as we've seen in episodes like Gemini, she is not the best leader. She thinks when she should act sometimes. Mitchell did override her command, but her battle tactics were getting nowhere fast. His actions allowed more soldiers to survive, saved Teal'c, and saved Bra'tac.

Yes, his actions were out of line, but many SG-1 episodes show similar successes for the characters who don't always listen to their superiors: i.e. Carter staying with Cassie; Jack on a regular basis; and Daniel in almost every episode for the first 3-4 years of the show.

Overall, I liked the episode. Not every episode can be 10/10, but the episode handled two plots, character development, and resolution well.

the fifth man
January 27th, 2006, 08:56 PM
Well they are going to be wearing leather in a few weeks... maybe they are going for the X-men look.

As long as Mitchell doesn't pop some claws out of his hands, I'll be ok.:)

chocdoc
January 27th, 2006, 08:58 PM
The thing is that the cool things of this episode...the battle itself, Sam in command (which felt OH so natural btw)...are completely overshadowed by the massive COP OUT of Super!Mitchell putting his team in danger on the ground, ignoring orders and saving the day all by his lonesome.

The man should be ordered to wear spandex tights and a cape now.


I know exactly what you mean. I'm thinking, what in the heck is Mitchell doing!! And Sam and Daniel are wondering the same thing! And really Sam and Daniel are the ones that saved his butt in the end. And Teal'c too, really, because Sam could work the rings in order to get to Teal'c. I thought--what are the writers thinking here to make Mitchell out to be the lone ranger, when this is a team show!! It just seemed irresponible as others have mentioned.

chocdoc
January 27th, 2006, 09:02 PM
After the disaster that was Ripple Effect, I was worried about this week's episode, but it turned out ok. It's not my favorite of the season, but it deserves an 8.5-9/10.

I usually find the Jaffa plot a bit dry, but tonight it was well done. The writers did an excellent job of incorporating former story lines, and the only thing I missed was Teal'c son. Is the boy still on his honey moon? The cost of leadership and the development of the Jaffa are coming along nicely.

The Mitchell storyline was a bit cliche, but it worked. I agree with the posters who argue that his subsequent behavior evolved from the discussion with his friend. The final scene with Teal'c was well done, and the battle scene was important.

(Please don't flame me for the following statements:)
The battle scene illustrated the point that Mitchell's friend made: Good leaders sometimes break the rules and "do" instead of "think." Sam is an acceptable team leader, but as we've seen in episodes like Gemini, she is not the best leader. She thinks when she should act sometimes. Mitchell did override her command, but her battle tactics were getting nowhere fast. His actions allowed more soldiers to survive, saved Teal'c, and saved Bra'tac.

Yes, his actions were out of line, but many SG-1 episodes show similar successes for the characters who don't always listen to their superiors: i.e. Carter staying with Cassie; Jack on a regular basis; and Daniel in almost every episode for the first 3-4 years of the show.

Overall, I liked the episode. Not every episode can be 10/10, but the episode handled two plots, character development, and resolution well.

I see what you are saying, but if Sam and Daniel had not gone after Mitchell, he would be dead by now. He could have easily signalled what he planned to do. You have to act like a team, and I doubt Jack would have done this type of reckless behavior. He would have let the others know what he was doing.

Daniel isn't military, and Carter going back to Cassie was not putting others in danger.

yowo
January 27th, 2006, 09:03 PM
:sam: :jack: :tealc: :daniel:

This episode was OK. "Just trying to stay positive"
Just let me say that every week I watch Stategate and then watch it again when it comes on three hours later. This week I watched Stargate and then Three hours later I started watching Ripple Effect from last week until Sam and McKay came on...
Enough said.

AGateFan
January 27th, 2006, 09:09 PM
I see what you are saying, but if Sam and Daniel had not gone after Mitchell, he would be dead by now. He could have easily signalled what he planned to do. You have to act like a team, and I doubt Jack would have done this type of reckless behavior. He would have let the others know what he was doing.

Daniel isn't military, and Carter going back to Cassie was not putting others in danger.
You rush ahead in an uncoordinated manner in a real battle, you die.
If he wanted to move forward then he should have ordered suppression fire and moved in a coordinated way not just rambo it up the hill. Seriously, if this wasn’t TV they would be pulling his dog tags right now.

Also noted he got owned by the fat jaffa, where’s the Sodan training (and didn’t they teach like calm, discipline in their training?). Lucky that jaffa was as moronic as the rest in this battle and didn’t think of the Zat first. Also lucky that Carter and Daniel did abandon their post to save him, they should have just let him get himself killed if that’s what he really wanted to do.

EDIT: And was it more obvious then in previous eps that the Jaffa were just standing around waiting to get shot? I really, really noticed them just standing there looking at the Alkesh as it mowed them all down.

Dani347
January 27th, 2006, 09:09 PM
I didn't get a superhero feel about Mitchell, because it just seemed like the last part in the whole rescue of Teal'c. Plus, I liked that Sam did react to him racing off. It wasn't "oh, how wonderful that you did, Cam!" She was annoyed. To me, it came off as yes, it worked, but it was written as a flaw. I also agree that they do write the characters doing the wrong thing, acting impulsively, not strictly following the rules for the sake of drama. Which doesn't bother me, because I find it's something that happens in a lot of shows I watch.

binkpmmc
January 27th, 2006, 09:12 PM
You rush ahead in an uncoordinated manner in a real battle, you die.
If he wanted to move forward then he should have ordered suppression fire and moved in a coordinated way not just rambo it up the hill. Seriously, if this wasn’t TV they would be pulling his dog tags right now.


I would love to have seen the reaction if this situation had been turned around between Lt. Colonels . . . .

Lt. Colonel Ryu Gaia
January 27th, 2006, 09:12 PM
EDIT: And was it more obvious then in previous eps that the Jaffa were just standing around waiting to get shot? I really, really noticed them just standing there looking at the Alkesh as it mowed them all down.
Counter-question: considering the "Free Jaffa Nation" movement, how many intelligent jaffa do you honestly think would remain in the service of Lord Baal? Really.

the fifth man
January 27th, 2006, 09:19 PM
Counter-question: considering the "Free Jaffa Nation" movement, how many intelligent jaffa do you honestly think would remain in the service of Lord Baal? Really.

Maybe all had undergone his brainwashing technique. You know, Ba'al himself takes care of the first, and it continues on from there. Just a possibility.

Dani347
January 27th, 2006, 09:22 PM
I would love to have seen the reaction if this situation had been turned around between Lt. Colonels . . . .

For me, if something similar was written in character (I don't know if the same thing would be in character for Sam, but something similar), and there was some indication that it wasn't all okay, that someone didn't like it (I mean on the show) I would be okay. I'd say it was a flaw, but I find it more annoying when people do something wrong and no one on the show seems to act like it.

AGateFan
January 27th, 2006, 09:22 PM
Maybe all had undergone his brainwashing technique. You know, Ba'al himself takes care of the first, and it continues on from there. Just a possibility.
So the brainwashing makes them stupider then normal?

EDIT: BTW I do know that jaffa have always been stupid and have always waited around to be shot so this is nothing new. I dont know if it was the editing or what but in that one scene with the alkesh it just really really stuck out to me this week.

majorsal
January 27th, 2006, 09:38 PM
k, i watched it. good ep! ;)

first off, i really liked mitchell in this ep. he was serious and non-joke cracky. i felt for his situation. (ben's a good actor)



things i didn't care for:

torturing teal'c. why do we have to have a teal'c-torture literally every season. (((teal'c)))

mitchell's friend died. :(



things i'm in between about:

mitchell running off hot-headed in the heat of battle. i understand his feelings, but the writers need to tread very carefully with how mitchell comes off right now. i feel we had enough background on mitchell's state of mind to understand his hot-headedness at the moment, but... i just don't want him coming off bad when they need to show him with leadership material. you know what i mean?



things i liked:

sam leading! :D

seeing bra'tac.

serious mitchell.

i LOVED the reworking of the dialog (spoilers we'd gotten months ago) between sam and mitchell outside the hospital. it did NOT make sam AND mitchell out to be treasonists. YAY!!!


all in all, a good ep. rather mitchell heavy, but it's a good way of getting to know this new character.

now, will i rewatch this ep? yes, but i'll be fastforwarding through some parts to get to the parts i like (sam, sam, and did i mention sam? :p). but that's not against mitchell or daniel or teal'c, etc; that's the way i always am when it comes to my fave characters/storylines.


this ep wasn't anti s/j shippy, so that's GOOD in my book! :p


sally :)

Strix varia
January 27th, 2006, 09:42 PM
But no. Super!Mitchell (trademark pending) rushes in and takes everyone out on the ground and in the mothership. Did they bother ringing Daniel and Sam to the ship to help out? Who knows? But with Super!Mitchell by their side, Teal'c and Bratac were sure to clear out an entire mothership of Jaffa. By themselves.

Then Super!Mitchell goes on his own and takes out all the jaffa? Are you serious? And what, Daniel and Sam are just waiting in the ring room on the ground taking out any incoming Jaffa? Please.


During this scene one of my friends made the comment, "There goes Super Mitchell off to the rescue!" Another friend, "He must be related to Kal'el." I'm not a huge superman fan, so I didn't actually get the reference, and they had to explain the joke to me. But you aren't alone in your thought, Über.

I liked Mitchell for most of the episode, but his rushing off on his own made me groan. Two steps forward, two steps back. Why can't the writers just give me a Lt. Colonel I can respect? God knows he doesn't have to be perfect. But I would like him to be believable.

On the fireground, what Mitchell did is called freelancing. Freelancers rush into burning buildings to save people and end up dying themselves, or get their buddies killed trying to rescue them when they wind up in trouble. They may look like heroes to outsiders, but they're deadly to any firefighting unit. True, not all freelancers end up dead, and sometimes they do save people, but it's still a practice that is actively discouraged and frowned upon.

I seriously doubt if they are regarded any differently by the military.

The man is a Lt. Colonel, and he's supposed to be a leader, not a bad example. This is so cliche as to be painful, but it still applies: There is no "I" in team, but apparently there is in MItchell. ;)

Did anyone else think he seemed to find the torture chamber awfully quickly and easily for someone who has never been on a mothership before?

I have no doubt Ba'al will be back. Why didn't they just zat his damn body three times and be done with it?

Leaving the machine in the hospital room didn't bother me. If it hadn't been the Academy hospital, it would have.

I enjoyed the scenes between Mitchell and his friend. I thought the two actors played it very well. I liked this Mitchell... I liked him much, much better than slapstick, yuk-yuk Mitchell, and OTT CMoH SuperMitchell. This was a caring, concerned, conflicted human being I could really grow to like a lot.

I enjoyed his scene with Sam, and I do like the way they are developing his friendship with her.

I would have liked to see more of Daniel, too, but as somebody else pointed out, at least he was being productive, and I did enjoy his interactions with other characters.

Sam is very believable in command.

Teal'c being tortured... yawn. But... any focus on Teal'c is nice. I didn't believe for a second he would kill Bra'tac. I'm glad they called Teal'c family, and I appreciated that everyone showed concern about his kidnapping.

Landry is growing on me every ep.

Loved Ba'al. I'm not a bit worried we won't see him again.

MoebiusStrip
January 27th, 2006, 09:43 PM
This was a really solid episode. It had a little of everything and it was not rushed at all. I honestly believe this was the best episode for us to get to know Cameron better...better than Babylon personally.

I have a good feeling that Baal will appear again.

But at least we know now that there is still Jaffa in the free nation that still uses symbiotes.

My only knit pic is that the battle scene didn't really flow well...but still great to watch.

Overall: 4/5

ann_sgcfan
January 27th, 2006, 09:47 PM
Wow.

What a crushing disappointment. Seriously painfully crushing blow.

We won't go into the fact that Mitchell apparently was allowed to leave the alien technology in his friend's room as he ran off to rescue Teal'c (not "help" rescue Teal'c, mind you, or work as part of a team...but actually go in and do it all by himself)...because that deserves a scathing post all of its own.

I liked Mitchell a little with his friend but this "woe is me/i don't deserve anything" attitude is getting old (same 'tude from Collateral Damage as he was reliving killing friendlys). So he feels guilty about what happened to his friend because of his impetuousness and yet apparently has done nothing to change that in himself (reference Mr. "I thought it was a light switch" from Prototype, the poor coffee machine and his incredibly reprimandworthy actions in battle in Stronghold). He learned nothing from his supposed "aha" moment where he acknowledges he cost his friend his life.

So whatever little respect I gained for Mitchell during his time with his friend, I lost ten-fold when he showed what an impetuous idiot he is on the battlefield...ignoring the others, ignoring Sam, who was in charge of the operation. Even when she ordered him to wait for backup, he ignored her and charged head on, forcing Daniel and Sam to abruptly abandon their positions to follow him. In other words, he endangered the lives of his team and the success of the mission because he is too impetuous.

I don't buy that Sam would have allowed him to go up to the mothership alone. That's just stupid. And IF it's because, as she said, she knew she couldn't stop him, that further proves he has no business being on the team. They are a team and they would have gone together to rescue Teal'c. Sam and Daniel would have gone up with him and they would have sabotaged that ring platform to prevent anyone from following. Further they...AS A TEAM...would have worked together AS A TEAM to rescue Teal'c AS A TEAM.

But no. Super!Mitchell (trademark pending) rushes in and takes everyone out on the ground and in the mothership. Did they bother ringing Daniel and Sam to the ship to help out? Who knows? But with Super!Mitchell by their side, Teal'c and Bratac were sure to clear out an entire mothership of Jaffa. By themselves.

Then Super!Mitchell goes on his own and takes out all the jaffa? Are you serious? And what, Daniel and Sam are just waiting in the ring room on the ground taking out any incoming Jaffa? Please.

I don't find the impetuousness endearing at all. I do however see it as my last straw with this character, who has proven beyond the shadow of a doubt to me that he has no business being on a team, much less the flagship team, MUCH LESS supposedly "co-leading" said team.

Congratulations to the PTB for successfully sabotaging the Mitchell character to the point where I don't think I'll ever like him. Also, congratulations on taking a pretty cool premise and turning it into an incredible COP OUT.

I soooo AGREE!!! I was looking forward to this episode after last week's previews and can't say how disappointed I was too!! This doesn't help the Mitchell character at all for me. There use to be so much potential. The writers continue to write him as an opposition to the team, not as an asset. The character doesn't have the team mind set that has always driven and created the great chemistry that was SG-1. SG-1 is constantly having to get him out of trouble.

I loved seeing Sam in charge!! The Sam/Cam friendship and Teal’c/ Cam friendship moments were touching. Daniel and Bra'tac looking for Teal'c were good moments. I loved the fact that Teal’c had a bigger part to play in this episode! I loved seeing Bra’tac. I also love Daniel, but when did he pick up Jack’s nervous habit (throwing a tennis ball against the wall?) Since when did Daniel bring toys (other than his books/ journals) to keep him entertained off world. It was odd. I saw Jack at that moment sitting there and not Daniel.

And has the Stargate become common knowledge at some point and I just didn’t see that episode? Why would Mitchell leave the device unattended in a Hospital where doctors and nurses are constantly coming and going?

Michelle05
January 27th, 2006, 09:52 PM
I didn't get a superhero feel about Mitchell, because it just seemed like the last part in the whole rescue of Teal'c. Plus, I liked that Sam did react to him racing off. It wasn't "oh, how wonderful that you did, Cam!" She was annoyed. To me, it came off as yes, it worked, but it was written as a flaw.

I agree. I really enjoyed the episode -- both storylines, all the character moments, the guest characters, and most of all, the writing. After being drowned in exposition and technobabble for several weeks now, it was nice to see entire conversations be about the characters relating to each other instead of 'telling' the plot ad nauseum.

I thought the scene where Mitchell was trying to get the rings to work and the Jaffa came upon him was quite awkward and not a great directorial choice. The Jaffa would have just killed him on the spot. Also surprised he went alone onto the ship, but it worked okay.

I think we have enough Mitchell background now to move forward with the team, and I especially hope we see more of Daniel before the season is out.

I'm very glad Alan McCullough is writing more SG-1 episodes.

majorsal
January 27th, 2006, 09:54 PM
Overall, I really enjoyed this episode. I'd have to give it a three out of four stars. The Jaffa politics don't bother me like they do some people, and of course I loved seeing our buddy Ba'al again. He just gets better and better. I mean come on, admitting that the Goa'uld may have gone a little far in their role-playing as Gods. That alone was priceless.:) I actually liked the Mitchell side-story as well, and the action at the end was great. Nice moment between Mitchell and Teal'c at the end, too.

so did i, and i give credit to good writing and the actors involved.

i'm glad mitchell was allowed to share his memories with his friend, which i think was a LOT better than just telling him about the program. his friend (can't remember his name :o ) didn't just want to know about the truth/program, he wanted to be a *part* of it (and mitchell knew it). mitchell gave his friend a chance to experience the wonders of it all... i wonder if his friend died while watching the memories? i wish mitchell could have been with him.

i think, when i rewatch this ep, i won't be skipping past the mitchell/friend stuff after all. (and that says a LOT)


sally :)

majorsal
January 27th, 2006, 09:56 PM
Tear gas? Maybe they could try using one of those magic eight-ball stun grenades they always have when it’s convenient for the plot, but never have when it’s actually needed to win a fight.

and they can't hit their targets! :p



sally :)

majorsal
January 27th, 2006, 10:04 PM
(Please don't flame me for the following statements) :)
The battle scene illustrated the point that Mitchell's friend made: Good leaders sometimes break the rules and "do" instead of "think." Sam is an acceptable team leader, but as we've seen in episodes like Gemini, she is not the best leader. She thinks when she should act sometimes. Mitchell did override her command, but her battle tactics were getting nowhere fast. His actions allowed more soldiers to survive, saved Teal'c, and saved Bra'tac.



all i'll say is if sam did what mitchell did (in that battlefield), she'd be roasted over the fire (fifty fires with ppl roasting marshmellows too).

i think what mitchell did wasn't good, but we didn't see the ramifications of 'what might' have happened if things had went wrong. but as you've pointed out, everyone on the team has done stupid things at one time or another. i'm not holding this against mitchell (because we didn't see it go bad). it can be a character learning experience for him. (it'll be interesting to see how he handles any further tests on his patience)



sally :)

majorsal
January 27th, 2006, 10:06 PM
I know exactly what you mean. I'm thinking, what in the heck is Mitchell doing!! And Sam and Daniel are wondering the same thing! And really Sam and Daniel are the ones that saved his butt in the end. And Teal'c too, really, because Sam could work the rings in order to get to Teal'c. I thought--what are the writers thinking here to make Mitchell out to be the lone ranger, when this is a team show!! It just seemed irresponible as others have mentioned.

... do you wonder if mitchell was a bit suicidal? i know his strong feelings of guilt were riding him, but... what do others think?




sally :)

Dani347
January 27th, 2006, 10:06 PM
I also love Daniel, but when did he pick up Jack’s nervous habit (throwing a tennis ball against the wall?) Since when did Daniel bring toys (other than his books/ journals) to keep him entertained off world.

Wasn't there a scene in some early episode where he and Jack roled a ball back and forth to each other on a Goa'uld ship? I think I remember it, so him playing with a ball to relieve tension doesn't seem unprecendent, although I still wonder why he brought it. Maybe he just knows from experience that even rescue mentions have their down times and he knew getting lost in a book wouldn't be the best thing, so he took a ball that Jack left as a gift.

Am I working it too hard?



Why didn't they just zat his damn body three times and be done with it?

Oh, we all know that doesn't work anymore;)

Uber
January 27th, 2006, 10:28 PM
I soooo AGREE!!! I was looking forward to this episode after last week's previews and can't say how disappointed I was too!! This doesn't help the Mitchell character at all for me. There use to be so much potential. The writers continue to write him as an opposition to the team, not as an asset. The character doesn't have the team mind set that has always driven and created the great chemistry that was SG-1. SG-1 is constantly having to get him out of trouble.

The Sam/Cam friendship and Teal’c/ Cam friendship moments were touching. Daniel and Bra'tac looking for Teal'c were good moments. I loved the fact that Teal’c had a bigger part to play in this episode! I loved seeing Bra’tac. I also love Daniel, but when did he pick up Jack’s nervous habit (throwing a tennis ball against the wall?) Since when did Daniel bring toys (other than his books/ journals) to keep him entertained off world. It was odd. I saw Jack at that moment sitting there and not Daniel.

And has the Stargate become common knowledge at some point and I just didn’t see that episode? Why would Mitchell leave the device unattended in a Hospital where doctors and nurses are constantly coming and going?I enjoyed the Sam/Cam, Sam/Daniel, Teal'c/Cam friendship moments but they weren't enough to make this episode work.

Also of note, I thought Sam would be in this more than she was...certainly got that feel from the preview clips. But apparently most of Carter's contributions were offscreen and we heard all the stuff she was doing from others "Sam's going here/Sam's planning the rescue mission (that Mitchell compromised with his stupidity). She led the teams through the gate too and that was cool...but these positives are completely overeshadowed by the compulsive need almost to show how wonderful Mitchell is to go off and rescue Teal'c on his own.

Truth is, he should have been sidelined even more so because he was too personally affected by his friend's situation to do his job without, you know, compromising the mission/risking the lives of his teammates.

He should have taken his issues out on a heavy bag and should not have been allowed to go. Further he should be seriously reprimanded for his Rambo routine during the mission.

ann_sgcfan
January 27th, 2006, 11:08 PM
I enjoyed the Sam/Cam, Sam/Daniel, Teal'c/Cam friendship moments but they weren't enough to make this episode work.

Also of note, I thought Sam would be in this more than she was...certainly got that feel from the preview clips. But apparently most of Carter's contributions were offscreen and we heard all the stuff she was doing from others "Sam's going here/Sam's planning the rescue mission (that Mitchell compromised with his stupidity). She led the teams through the gate too and that was cool...but these positives are completely overeshadowed by the compulsive need almost to show how wonderful Mitchell is to go off and rescue Teal'c on his own.

Truth is, he should have been sidelined even more so because he was too personally affected by his friend's situation to do his job without, you know, compromising the mission/risking the lives of his teammates.

He should have taken his issues out on a heavy bag and should not have been allowed to go. Further he should be seriously reprimanded for his Rambo routine during the mission.

I thought Sam would have been in the episode more too from the previews, but at least they were saying something about how she was involved off camera and didn't ignore her or Teal'c completely. Like I said Teal'c was more involved with this one and I enjoyed that (he rarely gets a storyline). I loved seeing Sam in charge.

Yeah I was surprised that they allowed Cam to go through the gate as well without attending the pre-mission briefing. He had no clue what he was getting into. THankfully Sam and Daniel were there to save him. (Sam and Daniel has some good moments I miss that.) Cam didn't even know how to operate the rings so not a well thought out plan on his part on many levels. The bad moments overshadowed the good.

Dani347
January 27th, 2006, 11:19 PM
I don't recall the previews, but I thought the quality of the Sam scenes were good. She was very good in this episode. I can't think of anything off about her.

ann_sgcfan
January 27th, 2006, 11:43 PM
I don't recall the previews, but I thought the quality of the Sam scenes were good. She was very good in this episode. I can't think of anything off about her.

I didn't see anything off with the Sam character either. I thought she had good scenes with the other three costars. I was expecting more. From the previews I was expecting an episode entirely off world like they use too (more old school). You know, Sg-1 leaves through the gate and doesn't return until their teammate was rescued. I thought Sam leads a group along with Daniel through the Stargate to search and rescue Teal'c, while Cam dealt with personal problems. So I was disappointed that they didn’t go off world as a team until the end of the episode.

Battousai the Manslayer
January 27th, 2006, 11:47 PM
... do you wonder if mitchell was a bit suicidal? i know his strong feelings of guilt were riding him, but... what do others think?
I'm going with no. He strikes me as the type to feel that he would owe it to the people he feels guilty about to live with the guilt and shame and not take the easy way out. Or using his life to try to repay them on some level.

Dani347
January 27th, 2006, 11:59 PM
I didn't see anything off with the Sam character either. I thought she had good scenes with the other three costars. I was expecting more. From the previews I was expecting an episode entirely off world like they use too (more old school). You know, Sg-1 leaves through the gate and doesn't return until their teammate was rescued. I thought Sam leads a group along with Daniel through the Stargate to search and rescue Teal'c, while Cam dealt with personal problems. So I was disappointed that they didn’t go off world as a team until the end of the episode.

It was probably because I had read spoilers, so I knew that there was going to be the Mitchell subplot, that it didn't surprise me.

the dancer of spaz
January 28th, 2006, 12:36 AM
I'm with those who thought, "WTF?" when Cameron went all Rambo on those Jaffa. I don't know what that's all about, but it seemed incredibly forced, incredibly immature and ridiculous. Honestly.

I don't think TPTB mean to insult our intelligence - it just happens. Cameron could be an excellent character. But they can't seem to get past how essential it is to beat that potential down our throats, instead of showing us in a realistic manner.

And, once again, though I liked Collateral Damage, this is another moment where the team interaction is sacrificed for Cameron's character development.

Problem One: Teal'c was supposedly the center of the episode here. But why did we only hear about Teal'c getting kidnapped? Why didn't they show it? It's so much easier to tell, eh? Of course. And we saw Teal'c getting tortured a few times, but that's it... I dunno. I just feel like it was misleading. This was supposed to be Teal'c's ep. Cameron's story was (understandably) supposed to be the B plot, but it seemed to kinda overshadow everything else. I mean, at the end, during a moment when we could've had a great "Teal'c Recovers" scene with his teammates, we're dwelling on Cameron's B plot - a good story, but not exactly A Plot worthy, and certainly not enough to take away from TEAL'C'S issues.

Problem Two: Sam was clearly in charge of this mission, and again understandably so. So why did she have to practically babysit Cameron during the firefight? I'm no expert on military missions or battles or showdowns or what have you, but I'm pretty sure the leader of the mission should NOT have to do that. And the fact that she KNEW Cameron would do what he wanted, without her being able to stop him, and the fact that she's just rather resigned to that fact is disturbing. Both she and Daniel should not have to cover Cameron's butt when he decides to go on a rampage. I'm assuming it was meant as making up for his friend because he was just so darn mad, but come on. Let's be real here. How is making THE SAME MISTAKE TWICE gonna help anyone?

I won't even go into how that could possibly translate into Cameron deliberately undermining Sam's authority, because I REALLY don't think they were going that route. Really. Hoping. Bah...

Where, might I ask, is the straight-laced Lt. Colonel who graced Landry's office in "Avalon?" Where is he? Oh, you mean we left him back in "Ex Deus Machina?" Then, by all means, let's get him back, shall we?

Problem Three: At the end, Teal'c and Cameron had what could have been a nice moment, only it was REALLY meant to further glorify Cameron's foolish behavior. Yes, yes, we get it. Cameron's still soul searching, still finding his place - not only on SG-1, but also on this current plane of existence. Great. Fantastic. Can he do it a bit more inwardly, please? His sudden outbursts are getting kinda distracting.

There's no fall-out for what he did. Logically, I highly doubt that Sam or Daniel would tattle on Cameron, but it's bound to show up in the report - all 20 of them. And while I understand that Landry is rather fond of Cameron, you'd think that a by-the-books general like Landry would have issues with that.

Problem Four: The "fancy free tech at the hospital" situation. It was too blatant to mention above, and I've realized that we shouldn't have been too surprised by that move. I can just see it now. The poor bloke flatlines during a particularly heated memory that Cameron unwittingly plugged into the machine. The nurses and doctors rush in to revive the guy, to no avail.

But, of course, seeing as how this is a military hospital, they think nothing of it. Meh. It happens all the time. Let's just wrap it back up and send it to Cheyenne Mountain. No biggie.

Also, evidently, we shouldn't have been too surprised when they had Sam bring up Jacob and Pete as a way to "relate" to Cameron's plight. Because, ya know, it's all the same thing after all. Riiiiight. For all those NEW viewers out there, Sam told Jacob about the SGC because she just felt like she needed to, dang it. And Pete? Well, one day Sam got it into her head that the best way to bring some excitement to their relationship would be to tell Pete about some of her intergalactic travels. See? It's fun to rewrite history, isn't it?

All in all, what could've been a great, classic, old school team ep turned into moments where I seriously had to rewind the ep to make sure I was actually seeing what I was seeing.

And don't get me wrong: I really enjoyed the moments between Cameron and his friend. Those were good, deep moments, and were well done by both actors. MS and TA were great at getting to the bottom of the situation with the brainwashed Jaffa Council Members. I like seeing Daniel play the sleuth opposite Bratac. It's a nice change to his, uh... more cynical roles of late. And, what relatively little we saw of AT/Sam was great, too. Give Sam a P90 (or any other firearm for that matter) anyday and let her fly. Oh yeah, and let her lead a few soldiers through the Gate a few times. Trust me, you'll be happy that you did. :p

And CJ/Teal'c, as always, is highly underrated in my book. No one does unadulterated torture like Judge. ;)

ON EDIT: The episode would've been better for me, had I not been solely banking on a bonafide team ep. My expectations were a bit high, so my take on this episode may be extremely tainted by my scathing disappointment. :o

Dani347
January 28th, 2006, 12:45 AM
Cheyenne Mountain. No biggie.

Also, evidently, we shouldn't have been too surprised when they had Sam bring up Jacob and Pete as a way to "relate" to Cameron's plight. Because, ya know, it's all the same thing after all. Riiiiight. For all those NEW viewers out there, Sam told Jacob about the SGC because she just felt like she needed to, dang it. And Pete? Well, one day Sam got it into her head that the best way to bring some excitement to their relationship would be to tell Pete about some of her intergalactic travels. See? It's fun to rewrite history, isn't it?


For new viewers, Jacob was told because he was getting a Tok'ra, and Pete had been shot with a Goa'uld weapon. Both of which were brought up in the episode.

the dancer of spaz
January 28th, 2006, 12:58 AM
For new viewers, Jacob was told because he was getting a Tok'ra, and Pete had been shot with a Goa'uld weapon. Both of which were brought up in the episode.

Briefly. One liners. ;)

For new viewers, it's still putting them up there with Cameron's decision. And, Pete's, er, unwise behavior aside, it's not quite the same thing.

This was something that wasn't required for the sake of national security. The guy had hunches. Cameron still could've played coy. There's a difference between, "Oh crap, the Tok'ra aren't letting us go unless we bring back a host;" "Oh crap, this idiot followed Sam to a stakeout and got himself shot;" and "Oh crap, I'm feeling really crappy over what might have been."

Dani347
January 28th, 2006, 01:16 AM
Not being a new viewer, I can't say completely 100% how I would react. But, I can say that I'm almost completely 100% sure that one line was all it would take to convey that there were extenuating circumstances to Sam telling. Especially the way it was written, with being Sam mentioning Jacob, Mitchell countering with why, then Sam mentioning Pete, and Mitchell countering why. Case was given, then given again. Plus, the fact that Mitchell had already wondered if he was being a hypocrite also made it seem like he wasn't willing to accept the out in his feelings Sam was trying to give him. "Look, I told two people." "Yes, but this is why that was different from what I'm doing."

Like I said, I'm not new, and I haven't talked to anyone new who viewed it, but it didn't seem obscure enough that a new viewer couldn't grasp it.

And, the whole point in my last post was that I felt they made it clear that it wasn't the same. All I think is, Sam understood his desire to tell. I don't think she would have gone into some long speech about why it was different for her. Permission had already been granted, so there was no good reason to try and talk him out of it, or go into the differences in their situations (I still think they were effectively conveyed). It wasn't that Mitchell's reasons were the same as Sam's, or that it was meant to seem that way. Just that Sam could understand that Mitchell would want to tell. And, that once permission was granted, it doesn't make you a hypocrite for doing it.

But, I'm also someone who wouldn't have minded if they kept in the whole thing in the spoilers where Sam said she didn't know if she would have told without permission. I wouldn't have felt it was terrible, especially since it didn't happen, and I think it would be natural to think after the fact, and after you did have a very good reason and permission, that just maybe a secret like that would be hard to keep.

JayShadow
January 28th, 2006, 01:25 AM
:baal: :baal: :baal: :baal: DisposiBa'als

Just use them up and blow them away :baal: :tealcanime23:

the dancer of spaz
January 28th, 2006, 01:39 AM
Not being a new viewer, I can't say completely 100% how I would react. But, I can say that I'm almost completely 100% sure that one line was all it would take to convey that there were extenuating circumstances to Sam telling. Especially the way it was written, with being Sam mentioning Jacob, Mitchell countering with why, then Sam mentioning Pete, and Mitchell countering why. Case was given, then given again. Plus, the fact that Mitchell had already wondered if he was being a hypocrite also made it seem like he wasn't willing to accept the out in his feelings Sam was trying to give him. "Look, I told two people." "Yes, but this is why that was different from what I'm doing."

Like I said, I'm not new, and I haven't talked to anyone new who viewed it, but it didn't seem obscure enough that a new viewer couldn't grasp it.



Dude, this is such a relatively minute issue of mine that I don't think it really needs arguing. I understand where you're coming from. I really do.

But my issue with moments like this one is the fact that they're rather consistent half-assed attempts at bringing up the past, and giving new viewers - or any viewers who don't watch eps multiple times, for that matter - a self-contained version of the facts.

They have a recent habit of rewriting history on this show, or suggesting aspects of history that never really happened (yep, I'm talking about Orlin and Martouf). Or they're subtlely changing the characters to fit some new version of SG-1 (Daniel the Jaded Skeptic? Sam: The Face That Launched A Thousand Gates? What the heck's that about?).

Again, it's a relatively minute moment in time, but it's stuff like this that seems like it's more of a deliberate attempt to live in the NOW with the values of NOW, instead of staying true to what's been the show's logic for several years.

And basic logic suggests that Cameron really shouldn't have been given the OK to show his buddy that technology - let alone, ya know, loan it out to him for a day without any supervision or non-disclosure agreement. Sam's attempts at justifying it are merely their hamfisted ways of making it seem logical, when it's really, really not.

Dani347
January 28th, 2006, 01:49 AM
Sam: The Face That Launched A Thousand Gates?

Snort.

Okay, more Daniel stuff. I liked him coming up with the idea to do the ritual I won't try to spell on the Jaffa. Also, that the last thing he said was a question.

But, I'm not sure I liked Ba'al dropping the Goa'uld voice. I guess it was a good tactic if he was going for a "let's be friends" vibe, but Ba'al just seems more Ba'al like with the whole Goa'uld voice.

And, I'm sorry, but again I can't believe Dakin Matthews as a Jaffa. It was as unbelievable to me as Wayne Brady.

eta: Sam has a pretty smile.

the dancer of spaz
January 28th, 2006, 01:58 AM
Okay, more Daniel stuff. I liked him coming up with the idea to do the ritual I won't try to spell on the Jaffa. Also, that the last thing he said was a question.

Yep. Daniel's role was consistently good (and productive) in this ep. Like I said, I like him with Bratac. They made a great team. :)


But, I'm not sure I liked Ba'al dropping the Goa'uld voice. I guess it was a good tactic if he was going for a "let's be friends" vibe, but Ba'al just seems more Ba'al like with the whole Goa'uld voice.

Oh, but he's dead sexy when he's not being flanged, you gotta admit. Thank God for cloning machines...


And, I'm sorry, but again I can't believe Dakin Matthews as a Jaffa. It was as unbelievable to me as Wayne Brady.

Hey, he did semi-regular shoutouts to SG-1 without prompting. :) You gotta give the guy some praise for that.

Dani347
January 28th, 2006, 02:03 AM
Oh, but he's dead sexy when he's not being flanged, you gotta admit. Thank God for cloning machines...



I might, but I don't know what flanged means.

the dancer of spaz
January 28th, 2006, 02:12 AM
I might, but I don't know what flanged means.

Goa'uldified voice.

Check the spelling though. ;)

AGateFan
January 28th, 2006, 02:31 AM
I thought Sam would have been in the episode more too from the previews, but at least they were saying something about how she was involved off camera and didn't ignore her or Teal'c completely. Like I said Teal'c was more involved with this one and I enjoyed that (he rarely gets a storyline). I loved seeing Sam in charge.

Yeah I was surprised that they allowed Cam to go through the gate as well without attending the pre-mission briefing. He had no clue what he was getting into. THankfully Sam and Daniel were there to save him. (Sam and Daniel has some good moments I miss that.) Cam didn't even know how to operate the rings so not a well thought out plan on his part on many levels. The bad moments overshadowed the good.
I think that they had maybe sort of implied that the ring controls were somehow kinda damaged and thats why Mitchell couldnt work them.... I think.

Teal'c really only seemed more involved because he was the plot point that the A story revolved around. But honestly did he have any more lines in this ep then any other? Bra'tec had more lines, which is good he needs more lines but for a "teal'c" episode it was certainly quite too Teal'c light for me.

In fact, now that I think about it, it seems like they spent more time on the B story then the A story... so maybe the Mitchell thing was supposed to be the A story and the little 'Teal'c being kidnaped' thing was the B story.:confused: One thing I know for sure. This was NOT a Team story.

Seastallion
January 28th, 2006, 04:05 AM
I liked the episode. :)

Great move on part of the Jaffa. Yay Democracy..! :D

Someone mentioned earlier about a serious security breach, with Mitchell leaving the memory device with his friend. I don't think so... For several reasons. For one thing, the guy is in a military hospital. In fact, it is the one attached to the SGC. The only reason Cam's friend was there, is because Cam got him to go there to get a second opinion. (The same place where the SGC personnel often go for long term care and treatment. Daniel went there when under the influence of Machello's anti-goa'uld device.) As the doctor in this episode said, they have access to a lot of alien medical technololgy that the rest of the world doesn't. All that alone, means that this hospital has extraordinary security in place, as the norm. Also, I highly doubt that the technology was delivered to the hospital without its very own contingent of security personnel to guard it, besides Sam and Cam. When Cam's friend is done with the device, I'm quite sure its guards will be there to take it off his hands.

As to the Ba'al character... I'm reasonably certain it was just a clone. I can't see the real Ba'al putting himself in any unneccesarily risky positions. I'll bet that Ba'al is STILL on Earth taking it easy.

All in all, I think this was very much a prepatory episode. I think it is setting up things for storylines later in the season, and possibly next season as well. Sometimes it is necessary to have prepatory episodes before you get to the really juicy ones. The really juicy ones themselves are very often based on the boring (to some obviously, not me) prepatory episodes. SG-1 still ROCKS..!!! :D

shester
January 28th, 2006, 05:32 AM
Ben just gets better and better. Mitchell is not the "gung ho fan boy". He has such depth we are just starting to discover. I loved when he broke the glass on the coffee machine. He carries his guilt with him. He is impatient and rash. Yes!!! He is not perfect. Wonderful! He will make mistakes just like the rest of the team. Not a perfect one among them. I don't need perfection. I like flaws and can't wait to see how they will get out of the problems this will cause. I, mean, Daniel sent the Ori to us. That is okay. We have something to fight for.
Sybil

Buzz Lightyear
January 28th, 2006, 05:51 AM
Ba'al + Ori = Great Ba'als of Fire!! :D :D

I'll agree - this is the best episode of the season so far. Granted the Mitch subplot was rather boring and the endless needling from his friend was irksome, but I really enjoyed the Jaffa politics and all the scenes with Ba'al. He's the GQ of the Goa'uld.

And was it just me, or did this ep seem a little Daniel-lite?

Daniel might as well have taken a day off because he certainly had no place being part of that rescue mission, especially, not at the vanguard of the force. All his time on SG-1 still doesn't make him qualified to be a commando. His inclusion on the strike force was quite laughable.

The two plots (Mitchell's friend Bryce and Teal'c/Bra'tac) seemed forced to co-exist without any good reason. That one line from Bryce that Mitchell re-used with Teal'c in NOT sufficient justification to link the two storylines.

It's too bad the writer (or writers, if you include the 3 who wrote excerpts) couldn't have expanded just one of the two storylines into the full episode. It would have been more heartfelt to spend more time fleshing out the friendship between Mitchell and Bryce. And surely a confrontation between Baal and Teal'c deserves a bit more screen time than it got.

Even Peter Deluise's direction was not enough to raise it above the mere ho-hum feeling I got.

mindfire
January 28th, 2006, 06:10 AM
I liked this episode, and I think we might see Baal again even if they killed the real one his clones are still out their.

nccjones
January 28th, 2006, 06:12 AM
To the people who said boring - I agree - I just woke up and watched it on tape and I really had high hopes for this one - once again disappointed.

This pretty much solidified for me that Mitchell is not up to par for this team that is SG1 - again he is shown to lack judgment (in spades this time) and is immature. All I can say is thank God he was not in charge - what a disaster. Lt. Colonel clearly disobeying/ignoring orders (Carter was clearly in charge here) and running off into a firefight and, once again, getting beaten up (that Mitchell in peril bit is reallly reallly getting boring) because he's upset clearly shows a lack of maturity IMO. If he was that upset he should have excused himself from the mission not jeopardized himself and the rest of his teammates with irresponsible behaviour (those Jaffa at the rings should have shot him.) A five year old runs off and slams his fists on the floor when he doesn't get his way - a Lt. Colonel on a rescue mission and involved in a firefight does not run off alone into a battlefield, all the while ignoring orders, over his friends situation, a five year old runs off and ignores his parents orders not a Lt. Colonel even if he is upset. Stay home if you are that upset - don't be a jerk in the field. The thing I finally figured out after asking over and over again what he brings to the team is that what he seems to bring to the team is to get beaten up or to get into trouble so the rest of the team has something to do, besides save the world, etc., they also save Mitchell.

The whole thing with Mitchell going after Teal'c seemed contrived, forced and unnatural - again - but that has become SOP for S9 just like Landry saying Teal'c is family - he's known Teal'c for 14 episodes - it's forced and unnatural. It all seems to me like TPTB trying waaay too hard to get people to like and accept Mitchell by forcing these unnatural and contrived scenes. I have nothing invested in Mitchell so I have less than nothing to care about with this dying friend of his so this whole storyline was a fast-forward situation for me. Mitchell's time would be better spent with the team and trying to show the 4 of them as a team - not that it is working when they are together - but if he spent even a little more time in situations with the team, whether it be firefights where they are a team and not with him running off in a Rambo-like snit shooting things up because he's mad, or just spending time together as a team the way the real SG1 did maybe he would be a little more credible. (That whole scene clearly shows he should not be co-leader of the team - he is not prepared and he is not ready.)

Daniel and Carter good stuff. Carter clearly is the leader of this team - she is kick-a$$ and the SGC knows it - leading the whole shootin match into battle to rescue Teal'c - we need more of that and we should have seen Teal'c, Carter and Daniel together after Teal'c's rescue there has not been enough of that - the 3 original teammates still seem like strangers. They are trying too hard to force Mitchell into a well-rounded, well-oiled machine that is Sam, Teal'c and Daniel and it's not working IMO, it's actually keeping the team apart and distant. Bra'tac - great stuff too. That guy is great - someone else said somewhere that they should have put Bra'tac on SG1 and I agree Bra'tac would have been a great addition over Mitchell.

Oh well - as the saying goes, give it time it's only the 14th episode . . . . Maybe next week will be better - can you see me turning blue?

All I can say is well said!

nccjones
January 28th, 2006, 06:30 AM
I also love Daniel, but when did he pick up Jack’s nervous habit (throwing a tennis ball against the wall?) Since when did Daniel bring toys (other than his books/ journals) to keep him entertained off world. It was odd. I saw Jack at that moment sitting there and not Daniel.


I so agree with you on this. When I saw that scene, I felt it should have been Jack throwing the ball and Daniel telling Jack to stop because it was making him nervous. It was totally out of place. I mean, I liked it because it was a cute scene btwn Daniel and Carter, but it was just out of character. What ever happened to Daniel's journal anyway? It seems he never got it back from Jonah.

nccjones
January 28th, 2006, 06:32 AM
all i'll say is if sam did what mitchell did (in that battlefield), she'd be roasted over the fire (fifty fires with ppl roasting marshmellows too).


You are sooooooo on the nose with that. There are other boards right now saying that it wasn't all that bad of Mitchell to do it, but if Sam had done it, the bashing would be out of hand.

BubblingOverWithIdeas
January 28th, 2006, 06:58 AM
This was a good episode.
If I were Baal I would definitely brainwash Cameron.

Strix varia
January 28th, 2006, 08:03 AM
So, if they can use Asgard technology to beam a symbiote out of somebody's head, couldn't they use it to beam a piece of shrapnel out?

cindyz
January 28th, 2006, 08:03 AM
Best thing about this episode...Bra'tac!:)
Mmmmmm, Ba'al...nice.....:D
Cameron, trying too hard to be all sensitive. and he's impatient? did he really have to tell us that when moments later he goes commando on the rescue mission?? maybe stupid as well.:o
Sam, in charge, kicking some @ss!:D
Not enough Daniel.:(
Teal'c very tough. But that's enough torture guys :( ...He can give us so much more than that.
Enough with the Jaffa nation politics already! Boring.......:(
And I do believe we saw Cameron on the phone with Landry, talking about his friend, he did ask permission to use the device.;)

not the best episode, not the worst.;)

just my 2cents...not to be taken internally...harmful if swallowed...

jckfan55
January 28th, 2006, 08:47 AM
Briefly. One liners. ;)

For new viewers, it's still putting them up there with Cameron's decision. And, Pete's, er, unwise behavior aside, it's not quite the same thing.

This was something that wasn't required for the sake of national security. The guy had hunches. Cameron still could've played coy. There's a difference between, "Oh crap, the Tok'ra aren't letting us go unless we bring back a host;" "Oh crap, this idiot followed Sam to a stakeout and got himself shot;" and "Oh crap, I'm feeling really crappy over what might have been."
Good point. After Jacob was a dying friend asking Hammond what daughter was doing as a deathbed request and *George* stood firm until the Tokra thing.

SierraGulf1
January 28th, 2006, 09:07 AM
Everything about this episode was great...except Mitchell's part in it. Most of the things people wanted earlier are coming true...

For one, Carter is now less of a lovesick little girl and we're truly seeing her return to her former self. Teal'c and Bra'tac have always been great, and it was good to see them in action. As for Daniel, maybe he's got separation anxiety from Jack and he's turning into him... I don't mind that too much though, as we'll hopefully see some of old Daniel shine through in Ethon next week.

Unfortunately, all of those great things were overshadowed by the Mitchell plot, and them him running in and possibly jeopardizing everything because he had a "bad day." I agree that Landry calling Teal'c family felt a little off, but if we think about it, 14 episodes is the equilvalent to about nine months, that is, if seasons are still one year.

So, loved Carter, Daniel, Teal'c, Bra'tac, and Ba'al, and I usually like Mitchell, but this episode kind of ruined it. What I don't like is that SG-1 is seeming to be told from the POV of Mitchell, and thus, as previously stated, Daniel and Sam are seeming like strangers.

I'm enjoying S9, and I enjoyed half this episode a lot. I think if they cut Ferguson out of it completely, focused on resuing Teal'c, and had Mitchell, Daniel, Bra'tac, and Carter going up to the mother ship (just like old times), this episode could have been a 10/10.

Oh well, I've heard good things about Ethon.

BlackBaron
January 28th, 2006, 09:12 AM
Stronghold was a great episode! Loved Baal in this one. Not many times a goa'uld make you laugh. :D

One of the best episode this series and I've loved every single one!

keshou
January 28th, 2006, 09:18 AM
I don't have much to say about this one. It was just fair imo.

Enjoyed the Teal'c / Ba'al talk. Ba'al's great, as usual (and yay! we got to hear Cliff Simon's real voice) and I expect we'll keep seeing him getting killed over and over now that there are all those clones around. ;) :)

I always loved the way Ba'al played the "god" with a wink and a nod and it was fun to see him acknowledge that he never believed the schtick. And heck, I thought he made a pretty good argument to Teal'c about teaming up against the Ori. Of course the whole brainwashing/torture thing kind of negated his "good of the galaxy" speech.

Let's see, what else did I like. Seeing the "rings" again. Still the best special effect on Stargate outside of the gate itself.

Otherwise - eh. Just wasn't that compelling. I guess it was interesting to get some more background on Mitchell in the "B" story and Ben played it nicely but I really didn't grab on to his angst over his dying friend. Did like the conversation between Tealc and Mitchell at the end. Wish we'd get more of those one-on-one moments between the team members.

I also didn't really feel the team's intensity and anguish over rescuing Teal'c. As opposed to the Atlantis episode that followed when I really hooked on to Shep, Zelenka and Weir's urgency. Having Landry call Teal'c "family" - well I know they're trying to make all the new characters fit in but it felt "off". The OLD SG-1 always felt like "family". This group just feels like coworkers who wave goodbye at the end of the workweek and don't give each other another thought until they meet again on Monday.

Sam led the mission well and for the second episode in a row I really liked her role. Daniel didn't have much to do but I thought the "ball" thing was cute.

So kind of a letdown after Ripple Effect.

BlackBaron
January 28th, 2006, 09:21 AM
What can I say... Baal seems popular.

I also really like it when Baal said "Can you blame us?" and so on and on. :D

Dani347
January 28th, 2006, 09:39 AM
About the ball thing, I think the reasons for bouncing it would be different with both Jack and Daniel. I imagine that Jack would have done it because he was bored. The rescue had been complete, and the rest of SG1 was superfluous, since they couldn't be part of the voting, or really do anything. Jack would understand the importance of the vote, but I don't think he would fret over it, when there was nothing he could do. So, having all the action gone, and nothing to do, he'd bounce the ball because he was bored.


Daniel, on the other hand was very keyed up. All the ramifications and what would happen if it didn't go through (and maybe even if it did) were swirling through his head. I think if he had a journal, all that nervousness would have made him write one line and then toss it to the side, because he couldn't concentrate. He was bouncing the ball to relieve tension, because of all the thoughts in his head, that needed some sort of physical outlet. I'm thinking the same effect would be given by him pacing up and down, and since they were almost at the end of the council meeting, I could imagine that earlier Daniel had been pacing, was still mentally keyed up, and just needed something to do, that wouldn't involve thinking, which he was doing overtime. And, bouncing the ball would be one thing.

eta: Did Daniel have a whole laundry list of things to do? No, but he did have some significant things. He worked under Bra'tac, and that involved having the records of Jaffa Charleston's previous decisions to give concrete proof that something was off with the sudden turn around. It was sort of like he was playing second chair to Bra'tac. I mean, of course, Daniel would be mostly following. It would be unrealistic and presumptuous of him to take charge here with Bra'tac, Jaffa leader in 2006 (campaign buttons being made) right there. But, the hall of records thing I thought was very good to show he was contributing. He came up with the idea to put the Jaffa through the ritual. He went in the rescue mission (and hasn't Daniel always been a part of those things?) And, there were other things that weren't action related -and by action, I don't mean fighting, but things where he was part of moving the action forward- but were more exposition, but were also very in character. Coming to the conclusion that the Jaffa had been brainwashed, and also that he had removed his symbiote because of shame. I could see Daniel making those connections, and although it wasn't him solving the riddle (because Bra'tac had already known) it was a good way to convey it to the audience. And, aside from bouncing the ball, it was the words, his whole demeanor, about how important the whole vote was. So, I think he did some stuff, he had some character moments, his dialogue conveyed info in a realistic way not only for his character but for the show. I mean, it didn't come off to me as "how do we tell the audience that the Jaffa was ashamed? Lets stick the lines in Daniel's mouth." Even if that was the reason, it flowed like it would have happened in real life. And, Daniel's final lines also brought up the fact that there were still brainwashed Jaffa.

I don't know how that translates in scenes or lines, but I think the quality of what Daniel had to do was very good.

GateLadyM
January 28th, 2006, 09:59 AM
This was a good, solid episode. More info on Cam Mitchell (got a bit of a temper, eh?), but his friend was a bit too much into self-pity. Browder looked mighty fine!

Bra'tac is always a joy to watch, and Ba'al is a hoot. I'm not going to pick at the errors. I was entertained, that's all that matters. :)

golfbooy
January 28th, 2006, 10:29 AM
I'm going to ramble on for a while now. Take cover.

Stronghold actually turned out to be a unique episode, but not for any of the reasons I was hoping. It had so many elements that worked beautifully that I'm absolutely flabbergasted that somehow, some way, TPTB managed to make me completely hate it. I can't ever remember having as visceral a reaction to something done in an episode, ever. And to be fair, I don't hate the entire episode. I actually liked most of it quite a bit. But the final scenes with Mitchell so completely encapsulated all that is wrong with season nine, and I daresay wrong with all Stargate to come, that it completely knocked me out.

To start, I was OK with the Mitchell/dying friend stuff. It finally provided some insight into who he is as a person and how he views himself and his situation. But, I think it was totally, entirely too late in the season (and too late into Mitchell's introduction) for it. This would have been a super storyline if it had been included in one of the first five episodes of the year. It certainly would have gone a long way towards helping Mitchell's integration into the show. It ran on for a few scenes too long, and in the end only managed to result in yet another person telling us how great and wonderful Cam is, but hey, I'm used to that by now. Oh, and TPTB have finally revealed Mitchell's fatal flaw.

I just wish it would hurry up and kill the poor sod. I've been on the fence as far as his character goes all season long, and despite a decent effort on the part of Ben Browder (especially of late), it's Stronghold that makes me absolutely abhor him. It's become readily apparent that Daniel, Sam, and Teal'c (in his own episode no less) have to be sidelined so that Cameron Mitchell can be highlighted as a "hero". It's the saddest thing I've seen in Stargate. Really, I'm not exagerating. I find it remarkable that people are actually trying to rationalize his actions and the writers' decisions. He's the perfect combination of a comic book superhero and your typical Mary Sue. It was downright laughable that he didn't wind up dead after this mission. Talk about unbelievable. Even while I was watching it I was thinking, "OK, this is where he's going to learn from his past mistakes and where all that soul searching is going to pay off." I fully expected him to stop halfway and wait for backup. But no. Then, I thought after he got his ass kicked by Fat Jaffa (and Fat Jaffa so owned him right up until that convenient Jaffa stupidity kicked in and he stood there waiting for Mitchell to pull out the Zat and shoot him) that he was going to stop and wait before going on. But no, he just bounces right back up and rolls on. Then, I thought that after he took out the gun outpost he was finished. But still, no. Then, when the Jaffa captured him at the rings I thought, "Aha, he's where he learns his lesson!" But, amazingly, no. So it's up to the mothership (which he's never been on) without the rest of the team, through an army of Jaffa (they're not so tough) and right to where Teal'c is being held (he must be psychic). No sweat. It was a sequence of events only Kevin Sorbo could love. I thought I was watching Adromeda for a second there. What in God's name was the point of all that Mitchell/dying friend stuff if he's still going to act like a moron on the job?

I find it hard to believe that I'm at this point, but I wish there was a way to get him off the team, off the show. I was sooooooo hoping those Jaffa would just shoot him. Which begs the question, why didn't they shoot him? Oh, because it belongs in the realm of the sane and logical, and we didn't have any of that left for Mitchell's character, I guess. This battle sequence ranks as the worst ever on the show. A special effort has always been made to represent the members of the SGC as competent, trained personnel, especially in combat. Production has always gone the extra mile to make battles as realistic as possible, given the circumstances. From Children of the Gods to Forever in a Day to Full Circle to Heroes, each action sequence has been played out like it was an actual military operation, not just some exercise in ego or Hollywood heroics.

Mitchell's lack of control should have previously and would now disqualify him from a position on any SG team. The fact that I'm supposed to believe that he's capable of co-leading this particular SG team, that I'm supposed to believe that Carter, Daniel, and Teal'c respect Mitchell as a competent, worthy comrade has just left the realm of unlikely and entered the realm of impossible. Whenever SG-1 has had characters doing the sort of thing Mitchell did in Stronghold it was always portrayed as stupid, incorrect, and unacceptable. Remeber the kid from Rules of Engagement, Kyle? He stupidly gets himself shot trying to be the hero. As he writhes in pain on the ground O'neill doesn't even try to hide his disdain, bluntly refusing to comfort the wounded man. Later in the same episode Kyle literally gets smacked upside the head for performing a similiar asinine stunt. And what is the response when SG-1 witnesses Katano take on a group of Jaffa alone in The Warrior? Again, it's to call him "stupid" and galvanize SG-1's mistrust in him. But apparently all of that changes when it's Mitchell who's feeling the need to do it all on his own. No, then it's all OK. I'm just supposed to ignore everything that the show's been about for the last eight years. After all, how else were the writers to prove to us that Mitchell is capable of ground-based combat, how else were they to prove to us that Mitchell is the total, absolute epitome of heroism? I'm sorry, but that final scene was tv writing at its absolute worst.

Aside from all that, I think the rest of the episode was rather good. Never kill Bra'tac. Ever. Tony Amendola simply rocks. The scene where he and Daniel "interrogate" Euken was pure gold. It's nice to see that there's some First Prime of Apophis juice still flowing through Bra'tac's veins. Daniel and Sam were also quite good in this. Perhaps it was a quality over quantity performance for both, but Michael Shanks and Amanda Tapping are undeniably stupendous in their roles. The closing scene at the Jaffa council meeting was awesome. It's scenes like those that have been conspicuously absent from season nine so far.

Carter being in command again in this one worked great. It felt very natural and organic to the story. Carter's coordinated, in control behavior in this one is a stark contrast to the reckless, wacky actions of Mitchell. I think that the writers were trying to make Mitchell look great at the end, but all they did was highlight exactly why he shouldn't be in charge of a military unit. His complete disregard for the safety of his fellow soldiers has cost him an unimaginable amount of respect as far as I'm concerned. Give me Reynolds, Dixon, or even Makepeace watching my back any day. Mitchell will just get me killed.

I think I'm going to stop now because I really could just go on and on here. I am beyond angry as I type this post. I'm angry at Mitchell, and I'm angry at the writers. They have totally killed this character for me in Stronghold. Perhaps Mitchell's inferiority complex is a projection of the writers' own conscious awareness of the character's lack of qualifications. I really am unable to explain why they would write him this way. And worse yet, I don't care anymore. I'm having a hard time not viewing Mitchell as a feckless, self-serving git. He's a liability to SG-1, a liability to the SGC, and most diappointingly, a liability to the quality of the show.

Ethon is up next week. To be honest, I'm not looking forward to it at this point. I've never been as disillusioned with the show as I am right now. And I'm going on record right now as predicting that Mitchell saves the day with his unstoppable prowess as a pilot. Prove me wrong.

Edit: I forgot to mention Cliff Simon above, but his Ba'al is the only Goa'uld to give Apophis a run for his money. The Goa'uld really are great villains, absolutely endearing in our hatred of them.

Skydiver
January 28th, 2006, 10:32 AM
The really really not-so-good: Why did Mitchell go storming off on his own on the battlefield! Not a good move by the writers for this character, AGAIN. He was supposed to follow orders on this one---he was not in the lead. I guess this was to show his impulsive and hotheaded side? Not a good idea on the battlefield. It's a good thing Sam and Daniel followed him and saved his butt. It's also a good thing that Sam could make the rings work. In this episode, we are to see once again that Mitchell is a "hero". Not working for me (and I like Mitchell). He was reckless, and was not a team player in this one. This character needs credibility, not less, and his actions here lessen his credibility as a military team leader, IMO.

yeah. if they're supposed to be making mitch more likeable and respectible they really need to go at it anohter way. cause these kind of scenes do nothing but enforce the opinion of some that mitch is so not ready for command. he's a liability. and, if jack were in charge, someone who'd get left home

Skydiver
January 28th, 2006, 10:38 AM
For new viewers, Jacob was told because he was getting a Tok'ra, and Pete had been shot with a Goa'uld weapon. Both of which were brought up in the episode.
and inboth cases, when sam told jacob and when she told pete, she had permission from her boss to reveal classified info. in fact, george was in the room when sam told dad. and when she told pete, she not only got permission but read him chapter and verse on the treason he'd be committing if he told anyone else.

sam did tell those two men what was going on. after following the proper procedures. and she didn't leave classified tech lying around in a hospital ;)

Dani347
January 28th, 2006, 10:41 AM
I find it remarkable that people are actually trying to rationalize his actions and the writers' decisions.

Not trying to rationalize. To me, that sounds like there's only one way to see it, and any other interpretations must be some mental tap dancing on the part of viewers. It's just possible that people happen to view it differently. If some people see an exaggerated superhero, that's fine. I don't think you're trying to find bad writing in Mitchell. I think that's what you see. And, what I saw, with no rationalizing, was something that didn't strike me as all that superheroic. It was the final piece in the whole rescue. When I looked, I didn't see that Mitchell had done anything so fantastic that no one else could do it, or that would give him a medal or a statue of himself in the SGC. It was such a small thing. And, Sam's attitude where she said she didn't think she could stop him conveyed to me that it wasn't some fantastic thing that she was overwhelmed by him or simpering about how cool it was that he was going to rescue Teal'c.

Of course, I thought the whole battle itself was instrumental to rescuing Teal'c as well as Daniel and Bra'tac gathering intel, and Teal'c not really being brainwashed at all. So, to me, the rescue of Teal'c did not come down singlehandedly to Mitchell. It came down to all of them.

If you see it differently, that's fine. But, I don't think I'm trying to rationalize.

AGateFan
January 28th, 2006, 10:47 AM
and inboth cases, when sam told jacob and when she told pete, she had permission from her boss to reveal classified info. in fact, george was in the room when sam told dad. and when she told pete, she not only got permission but read him chapter and verse on the treason he'd be committing if he told anyone else.

sam did tell those two men what was going on. after following the proper procedures. and she didn't leave classified tech lying around in a hospital ;)
Ok, just because I have said so many negative things about poor old Mitch.....

As far as telling his friend, it appears that he followed procedure correctly.

He also voluteenered to pay for the coffee machine he broke.

And as far as the device being left behind goes. I am going with the "there was someone from the SGC waiting outside the room to pick it up when the guy was done with it" theory. Although the fact that they had a Lt Col (who was going offworld in an hour) deliver it in the first place still confuses me.... but this is the story I am going with on this.

Dani347
January 28th, 2006, 10:48 AM
and inboth cases, when sam told jacob and when she told pete, she had permission from her boss to reveal classified info. in fact, george was in the room when sam told dad. and when she told pete, she not only got permission but read him chapter and verse on the treason he'd be committing if he told anyone else.

sam did tell those two men what was going on. after following the proper procedures. and she didn't leave classified tech lying around in a hospital ;)

I never said she didn't have permission. I said that the writer made a point of saying that her circumstances for telling were different than Mitchell's. I don't know why I'm coming across as saying that what she did was the same as Mitchell or that she didn't have permission (which is a moot point because the question of telling without permission never came up), when I was trying to convey the exact opposite. The permission thing was already taken care of in for both of them. Mitchell and Sam had been given permission. I don't know why Landry was willing, but he was. But, the point I was making was that they did say that Sam had very good reasons for doing so. It wasn't the same thing as Mitchell's reasons, and the conversation was very clear on that. I was not saying Sam did anything wrong. The exact opposite.

Anyway, the post I responded to said that they felt that the writers were trying to say that Sam told Jacob and Pete for a lark, or just because she wanted to, and new viewers would feel it was the same thing as Mitchell telling his friend. And, I was saying that to my view, they specifically did not do that, they instead said right out the reasons why Sam needed to tell them. That new viewers would be able to grasp that it wasn't just because Sam wanted to tell, but that she had two good reasons to do so.

KillerMercury
January 28th, 2006, 11:06 AM
Okay, so here's the highlights of my "review":

*ahem*

-It's good to see the struggle within the Jaffa Council, even though I have no experience in politics, it looked difficult to convince all of them.

-I know she's been there since last season, but come on: Kal'el? Am I the only one who thinks of a certain superhero whenever her name is called? It feels like I'm watching the wrong channel!

-Bra'tac rocks. PERIOD.

-That Jaffa in Ba'al's mothership looks so much like Fanty and Mingo from Serenity. Dunno which one. Either that or I'm hallucinating.

-A hospital just for Stargate-related injuries and illnesses? Cool.

-We learn various things about Cam: he went to the Academy, he's reckless, hot-headed, tends to move from one woman to another, and tends to crack under peer pressure. Even though he could've stood by his case a little bit longer, IMO, it was inevitable for this to happen.

-I love Sam taking charge! YEAH!

All in all, good episode. 8.5/10!

golfbooy
January 28th, 2006, 11:07 AM
Not trying to rationalize. To me, that sounds like there's only one way to see it, and any other interpretations must be some mental tap dancing on the part of viewers. It's just possible that people happen to view it differently. If some people see an exaggerated superhero, that's fine. I don't think you're trying to find bad writing in Mitchell. I think that's what you see. And, what I saw, with no rationalizing, was something that didn't strike me as all that superheroic. It was the final piece in the whole rescue. When I looked, I didn't see that Mitchell had done anything so fantastic that no one else could do it, or that would give him a medal or a statue of himself in the SGC. It was such a small thing. And, Sam's attitude where she said she didn't think she could stop him conveyed to me that it wasn't some fantastic thing that she was overwhelmed by him or simpering about how cool it was that he was going to rescue Teal'c.

Of course, I thought the whole battle itself was instrumental to rescuing Teal'c as well as Daniel and Bra'tac gathering intel, and Teal'c not really being brainwashed at all. So, to me, the rescue of Teal'c did not come down singlehandedly to Mitchell. It came down to all of them.

If you see it differently, that's fine. But, I don't think I'm trying to rationalize.
Nah. I'm not trying to say that there's only one way to see it. And I'm certainly not trying to imply that Mitchell single-handedly rescued Teal'c. I am, however, surprised that Mitchell's behavior during the battle is being interpreted as heroic or praiseworthy rather than dangerous and foolhardy and, you guessed it, rash. Just because Mitchell admits the quality in himself shouldn't excuse the liability of it. If the whole point of the stuff at the hospital (which while being a bit overdrawn, was well done for the most part) with the dying friend was Cam coming to term's with causing his friend's injury, doesn't his behavior at the end undermine any growth he garnered from that experience? Isn't he just as bad, or worse, now for still doing wrong?

Dani347
January 28th, 2006, 11:24 AM
Nah. I'm not trying to say that there's only one way to see it. And I'm certainly not trying to imply that Mitchell single-handedly rescued Teal'c. I am, however, surprised that Mitchell's behavior during the battle is being interpreted as heroic or praiseworthy rather than dangerous and foolhardy and, you guessed it, rash. Just because Mitchell admits the quality in himself shouldn't excuse the liability of it. If the whole point of the stuff at the hospital (which while being a bit overdrawn, was well done for the most part) with the dying friend was Cam coming to term's with causing his friend's injury, doesn't his behavior at the end undermine any growth he garnered from that experience? Isn't he just as bad, or worse, now for still doing wrong?


Would it be realistic for him to have learned the lesson then? I'm thinking it's going to be one of those things about him that will crop up again. It's not something he can just beat. And, it didn't seem like that was the lesson being given by his friend. But, I think the problem -for me- was again, the clunky writing. They needed to show Mitchell being impatient, since they told us that he was.

But, I still didn't see it as being shown as heroic or praiseworthy, and again, I point to Sam's reaction. Well, first of all, I point to the fact that after he had raced off, he needed Sam and Daniel to zat the Jaffa. Then, she didn't act like him going off to find Teal'c was something that only he could do, or that it was super wonderful, but more like it was something that any of them could do (I don't know if that was realistic) and that the only reason he was doing it was because she knew he was going to anyway, and it was a waste of time to argue. In fact, writing this, makes it seem like it was portrayed as even less heroic than before. "Hey, you might as well, since I can't stop you anyway." To me, the actions leading up to him finding Teal'c didn't come across as praiseworthy. And, afterwards, when he did go to get Teal'c was separate, and was part of the plan, and again, was shown more as something that any one of them could do, so not so superheroic or setting Mitchell apart, in my book. And, his actions there (not the running off) did help rescue Teal'c, and I could see Teal'c feeling that part was worth his gratitude, but not the running off without backup.

GateAngel
January 28th, 2006, 11:37 AM
Well Stronghold seems to have some good and bad things going for it.

I'll start with the whole Cameron Mitchell stuff going on in this episode.

Good thing - I really liked the interaction between Cameron and his dying friend. We learned a lot about Cameron as a person. Ben Browder did a great job with this.

The bad thing- Can we stop with the story lines that have Cameron visiting people in hospitals or being in one himself. It seems like Cameron's whole life is defined by sickness and accidents.

All of this character development was all well and good, but it was so disconnect from Stargate SG-1 it's like Cameron isn't even part of the show. Cameron Mitchell desperately needs some development WITH the other characters that creates bonding between them. This feeling of disconnection is not making Mitchell feel like a part of the show to me. Nothing that happened to Cameron in the hospital scenes with his buddy connected to the progress of his role as a member of SG1.

Good Thing- I really liked Dr. Kelly. She had quite a presence and I hope we see her again. I liked Mitchell's friend and I was sad when he died.

Bad thing - why on earth did Cameron leave behind top secret and highly important technology without any kind of guard or protection. Why was Sam carting it around like it was nothing.

Really Good thing - I was so happy to see Sam being the soldier again and showing her competed side again. I had read some thing somewhere that said the issue of who is in command was being resolved by showing Sam leading missions with multiple teams on them and Cameron in charge of SG-1. I can see this working out nicely especially after watching Stronghold and seeing her leading the whole rescue mission and all the SG teams on it. That is the kind of rank Carter would have based on her experience. She did a great job too.

Baal's role in this was absolute genuis on the part of the writers. This is the perfect direction for the Goa'uld to go in and still keep their hands in play. They are scavengers and they have always built their power and position by riding on the shoulders of things created or done by others.

I loved the subtle yet powerful way it was shown that Daniel still misses Jack being there with them. Him throwing the ball back and forth to himself that he and Jack used to throw to each other to keep them from getting restless while waiting was a wonderful touch. It was a great character moment for Daniel.

Teal'c and Bra'tac were very good together as always. CJ and Tony made what could have been boring or stilted dialog and scenes come to life with their very powerful presence. I am glad that Teal'c wasn't wallpaper in this episode. I liked that not all the Jaffa have turned to using Tretonion. That is realistic.

Bad things: Other than that character moment, Daniel was pretty much just wallpaper in the background who stood around with a worried expression on his face. The female Jaffa counsel member finally got a name, but sometimes it sounded like Ka-el and I kept thinking 'but she doesn't look a thing like Superman to me' and sometimes it sounded like Corel. I like her though.

So to sum it up, I really wish that SG-1 had been more of a team in this episode. I wish the 'learning about Mitchell's stuff had been through interaction with his team mates and not so disconneted. While it made me like and understand Mitchell more, it didn't do anything to make me feel like he is a real part of SG1 or even on the same show as the rest of cast. As it is, Mitchell's a good character, he's just not an SG1 character to me quite yet.

gateslacker
January 28th, 2006, 11:42 AM
Hummm...haven't posted in a very long time but I wanted to because I think I viewed Mitchell's actions in the end a little differently. He was rash but all of the team members have been rash in the past and done some rather foolhardy things. ALL of them!!! It's what I like about them. But, I didn't really see his rash behavior as part of his being a hothead or what have you. Neither did I see it as a devious ploy by the writers to make him into a Super Hero. I saw it as Mitchell trying to save one friend because there was nothing he could do to save the other.

I can also cut Mitchell a little slack now and again. He hasn't been fighting intergalactic bad guys for 8 years.

I really enjoyed this episode although I didn't expect to.

Buzz Lightyear
January 28th, 2006, 11:50 AM
I so agree with you on this. When I saw that scene, I felt it should have been Jack throwing the ball and Daniel telling Jack to stop because it was making him nervous. It was totally out of place. I mean, I liked it because it was a cute scene btwn Daniel and Carter, but it was just out of character. What ever happened to Daniel's journal anyway? It seems he never got it back from Jonah.

I agree with you both. They're in a temple on the planet of Dakara and all Daniel can find to occupy his time is bouncing a ball off a wall? You mean they've translated every single inscription on every single wall and artifact in that place?

Dani347
January 28th, 2006, 12:12 PM
Doesn't translating take at least a bit of concentration? When your mind is preoccupied with something as big as whether or not the Jaffa will vote for democracy, translating might not be possible, even for Daniel. I think he needed to do something that didn't require mental processes, because they were already on overflow. Plus, to me, the force that he was bouncing the ball also suggested that his mind was going a mile a minute and he was full of nervous energy. I imagine at that point, any inscriptions on the walls would look like gibberish until they got word that the vote had gone through.

eta: Another thing I liked with Daniel was not only did he come up with the idea of trying the ritual on the Jaffa, but the way he and Bra'tac tag played off each other relaying the info they found to Landry.

chocdoc
January 28th, 2006, 12:42 PM
Hummm...haven't posted in a very long time but I wanted to because I think I viewed Mitchell's actions in the end a little differently. He was rash but all of the team members have been rash in the past and done some rather foolhardy things. ALL of them!!! It's what I like about them. But, I didn't really see his rash behavior as part of his being a hothead or what have you. Neither did I see it as a devious ploy by the writers to make him into a Super Hero. I saw it as Mitchell trying to save one friend because there was nothing he could do to save the other.

I can also cut Mitchell a little slack now and again. He hasn't been fighting intergalactic bad guys for 8 years.

I really enjoyed this episode although I didn't expect to.


And that's the point, isn't it? He hasn't been fighting intergalatic bad guys for 8 years, so why is he co-leading SG-1! I would not have minded Mitchell's behavior on the battlefield at all if he had just communicated to his TEAM members what he was doing! He had no regard for the team or Sam. That is reckless and irresponsible behavior for a lt. Col.. Does this give him character growth? Not to me because I am supposed to believe for 14 episodes now that he is competent to co-lead SG-1. I didn't see that here, and I haven't seen it yet. I saw selfish behavior, and Sam and Daniel had to go cover him. They essentially saved him from his reckless behavior. What plan did he have? If he had asked for backup, it would have been much better. Turns out he needed them to help Teal'c, as you would expect. Only Sam could make the rings work. He should no better as a lt. col.

Dani347
January 28th, 2006, 12:58 PM
Someone mentioned this on another board, but I agree, so I'm mentioning it here. It's a shame that the whole business of female Jaffa having the right to vote was only made by someone who had been brainwashed, and then it wasn't given any more consideration.

warmbeachbrat
January 28th, 2006, 01:00 PM
After watching the show the second time, I had a few more thoughts:

Wow, was it a bad hair day for EVERYBODY? It was most noticeable with Sam and Daniel, but it wasn't a great hair moment for everyone in the episode.

Didn't Ferguson mention something about working on a subcontract with Zephyr? Has that term ever been mentioned in the show before? Just wondering if it's new or if it's been brought up before. It kind of sounded like something out of the eight season, but I can't quite place it.

There was some nice continuity with Ferguson mentioning the building in Seattle and the "flu" pandemic.

I liked the last moments of the show with Mitchell and Tea'lc. Tea'lc felt it was important to connect with Mitchell, and even though Cam wanted to be left alone, he felt that effort and countered with his own effort to reach out to Tea'lc--asking his advice--perhaps it will come in handy someday. Tea'lc doesn't strike me as a toucy, feely type of guy, so I think he knew what Mitchell was getting at and appreciated it. I didn't expect them to get all huggy, weepy or whatever, so I wasn't disappointed with the scene and I didn't feel that Mitchell rebuffed Tea'lc. Anyway, just my opinion.

When Tea'lc first saw Ba'al and said, "You!" did anyone else think Ba'al would make some crack about Lord Yu? THAT would have been funny.

Speaking of Ba'al, I caught Abyss last week and I was struck by how different he was in that episode than how he is now. In Abyss, he had this really menacing undercurrent. That slow, ringing walk into the room and up the steps (without even looking) and a real sense of danger about him (I suppose having knives and acid contributed to that)--even when he was empathizing with Jack (or trying to anyway), he still had that barely leashed, indefinable something that made you know he was BAD. It kind of went away after that episode.

I noticed that Ba'al dropped his flanged voice when Tea'lc accused him of being a false god. He was almost folksy with Tea'lc, and he almost made sense! Hmmmm--so Ba'al knows about Tretonin. I wonder how it would affect a Goa'uld? Anyone notice that Ba'al kept his hand above the button on his wrist in his last scene? I wonder what that was about--it didn't help him much, did it? I don't think he's dead, though, and I really don't think it was a clone, either. I get the impression the clones are on earth, but not elsewhere. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

I paid more attention to what the doctor was saying the second time around, and I realize that this hospital knows all about the Stargate program, so I'm not near as bothered about Cam just leaving the equipment there. They've got it covered, I'm sure.

I thought this was a pretty good episode. There are others I like better, but there are a great many more I like less. I would give it three out of four stars.

chocdoc
January 28th, 2006, 01:10 PM
Someone mentioned this on another board, but I agree, so I'm mentioning it here. It's a shame that the whole business of female Jaffa having the right to vote was only made by someone who had been brainwashed, and then it wasn't given any more consideration.


Yes, that bothered me too. And I didn't know how to take Teal'c's reaction to this right to vote issue. It was frustrating. As a friend of mine said, the only female Jaffa on the council and she has to be brainwashed, and this issue has to be shuffled under the rug, when in fact, it is an important issue for the Jaffa council. I wonder if it will be brought up again, but under better circumstances?

Dani347
January 28th, 2006, 01:11 PM
After watching the show the second time, I had a few more thoughts:

Wow, was it a bad hair day for EVERYBODY? It was most noticeable with Sam and Daniel, but it wasn't a great hair moment for everyone in the episode.

Hmm, I didn't notice anything particularly bad about their hair.


Tea'lc felt it was important to connect with Mitchell, and even though Cam wanted to be left alone, he felt that effort and countered with his own effort to reach out to Tea'lc--asking his advice--perhaps it will come in handy someday.
Very good point. I think sometimes asking for help is a good way to say you appreciate someone's gesture. After the abrupt, but understandable "I would have done it for anyone" it did seem like Mitchell's way of reaching out.




Speaking of Ba'al, I caught Abyss last week and I was struck by how different he was in that episode than how he is now. In Abyss, he had this really menacing undercurrent. That slow, ringing walk into the room and up the steps (without even looking) and a real sense of danger about him (I suppose having knives and acid contributed to that)--even when he was empathizing with Jack (or trying to anyway), he still had that barely leashed, indefinable something that made you know he was BAD. It kind of went away after that episode.

Yes! I did think it was missing in this episode. The whole menace, evil, intimidating guy just seems slimey now.


I noticed that Ba'al dropped his flanged voice when Tea'lc accused him of being a false god.

You know, I never heard the word flanged before this thread. I had always just called it the Goa'uldy voice.

chocdoc

And I didn't know how to take Teal'c's reaction to this right to vote issue. It was frustrating. As a friend of mine said, the only female Jaffa on the council and she has to be brainwashed, and this issue has to be shuffled under the rug, when in fact, it is an important issue for the Jaffa council. I wonder if it will be brought up again, but under better circumstances?

It makes me wonder how Teal'c feels about a woman's place in general. Are Sam and Ish'ta the exceptions, because they've proven themselves as warriors? Does he feel that the matter of female Jaffa being able to vote is a minor issue that should be dealt with, but not at the expense of the larger issue, or does he feel that it's an issue that shouldn't be brought up at all? Does he think they're honored (he did speak of Drey'auc affectionately in Birthright, but not patronizingly) but honored in "their place" and that voting is a men's thing?

And, I hope it is brought up again, although I have my doubts.

jckfan55
January 28th, 2006, 02:47 PM
I have liked the woman Jaffa council member. I hope she recovers and that women's suffrage is okd. Very glad to see Bra'tak is still with us.

majorsal
January 28th, 2006, 03:01 PM
ON EDIT: The episode would've been better for me, had I not been solely banking on a bonafide team ep. My expectations were a bit high, so my take on this episode may be extremely tainted by my scathing disappointment. :o


and see, my expectations were so low that they were almost non-existant. after the ep-after-ep blow that i've taken as a sam fan and s/j shipper, any ep were i'm not left crying or pissed by the end is great. all i knew and 'expected' was sam leading some group of ppl through the gate. i didn't really even know 'what' she was leading this group for.

it seems that all i go into an ep now with is how much i'm going to cringe or come away upset. so if i don't go through either one (whether the ep is good or not) gives the ep a higher mark.

can't say that's the way to judge/go into an ep, but my blood pressure remained the same by the end (you know, no mini strokes or declarations of quitting :p) so yay.




sally :)


ps - ever have the second-day bugs? you know, after recovering from the ep and 'then' seeing it for what it was? reading everyone's views on it (specifically mitchell) has made me look at it a bit closer.

Dani347
January 28th, 2006, 03:10 PM
I have liked the woman Jaffa council member. I hope she recovers and that women's suffrage is okd. Very glad to see Bra'tak is still with us.

I don't know if they could do an entire episode around it, but it would be nice to see it come up in an episode where Bra'tac is elected leader.

majorsal

ps - ever have the second-day bugs? you know, after recovering from the ep and 'then' seeing it for what it was? reading everyone's views on it (specifically mitchell) has made me look at it a bit closer.

For me, seeing other people's opinions have solidified mine. I guess because seeing them, and having them so different from mine has made me really think about why I feel the way I do, and I had to think beyond the first impression, only I found even with reflection, I still feel the same way.

binkpmmc
January 28th, 2006, 03:50 PM
Hummm...haven't posted in a very long time but I wanted to because I think I viewed Mitchell's actions in the end a little differently. He was rash but all of the team members have been rash in the past and done some rather foolhardy things. ALL of them!!! It's what I like about them. But, I didn't really see his rash behavior as part of his being a hothead or what have you. Neither did I see it as a devious ploy by the writers to make him into a Super Hero. I saw it as Mitchell trying to save one friend because there was nothing he could do to save the other.

I can also cut Mitchell a little slack now and again. He hasn't been fighting intergalactic bad guys for 8 years.

I really enjoyed this episode although I didn't expect to.

The problem I have with what Mitchell did is it is a continuation of what I see as bad judgement and immaturity on his part; he is supposed to be co-leader of this team. What I saw last night was a rash, hot-headed individual, not a teammate (there is no I in team) who in no way appeared to me to be someone that should be co-leader of anything especially the elite, front-line team (thank God he was not in charge of this mission - he is a detriment).

If he was on my team I would want him as far away from me as possible he has such a prevelance for getting beaten up, captured and into trouble that I would not want to waste my time and effort, especially when on a mission to save a world or a people or someone else, having to digress from the original mission to save his hot-headed, sorry a$$ like Sam and Daniel had to do last night. Inexcusable and despicable writing. This charater appears to me to be going backwards instead of forwards in his growth on this team.

Buzz Lightyear
January 28th, 2006, 04:08 PM
Doesn't translating take at least a bit of concentration? When your mind is preoccupied with something as big as whether or not the Jaffa will vote for democracy, translating might not be possible, even for Daniel. I think he needed to do something that didn't require mental processes, because they were already on overflow. Plus, to me, the force that he was bouncing the ball also suggested that his mind was going a mile a minute and he was full of nervous energy. I imagine at that point, any inscriptions on the walls would look like gibberish until they got word that the vote had gone through.

eta: Another thing I liked with Daniel was not only did he come up with the idea of trying the ritual on the Jaffa, but the way he and Bra'tac tag played off each other relaying the info they found to Landry.

I'll concede your points but I still think he was out of place on the rescue mission.

Buzz Lightyear
January 28th, 2006, 04:23 PM
I noticed that Ba'al dropped his flanged voice when Tea'lc accused him of being a false god. He was almost folksy with Tea'lc, and he almost made sense! Hmmmm--so Ba'al knows about Tretonin. I wonder how it would affect a Goa'uld? Anyone notice that Ba'al kept his hand above the button on his wrist in his last scene? I wonder what that was about--it didn't help him much, did it? I don't think he's dead, though, and I really don't think it was a clone, either. I get the impression the clones are on earth, but not elsewhere. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

What's the purpose in having clones if you can't use them in risky situations like this? The real Baal could have been nearby monitoring everything aboard a cloaked transport vessel.

Baal only used his host's voice when he was alone with Teal'c, who called him on the whole false-god charade. The pompous Goa'uld voice was back in place when any of his own Jaffa underlings were present.

I believe the button on his wrist was for raising a personal shield but he got distracted by Mitchell, thus allowing Teal'c to blast him with the staff weapon. At first, I didn't think Baal would give Teal'c a functioning weapon and only meant to test whether the brainwashing procedure had worked but if he had a personal shield at his disposal, then he'd feel perfectly secure in handing Teal'c a loaded weapon since only the dispensable Jaffa fodder would be at risk in a firefight.

entil2001
January 28th, 2006, 04:52 PM
I happen to find the evolution of the Jaffa from an enslaved race to a more enlightened nation to be full of potential, so episodes like this are always interesting. Granted, the writers still aren’t taking full advantage of the storytelling possibilities available, but part of that could be attributed to the incursion by the Ori. The typical history for revolutionary movements for independence demonstrates how often success breeds civil war.

Sometimes that happens when the original oppressors come along and attempt to control one emerging faction within the new government. In a very mild sense, that’s what Baal attempts in this episode. (Or one of the Baals, anyway!) It’s closer to the truth to suggest that Baal was trying to take control of the entire Jaffa Nation through subversion of its ruling council. What I find intriguing is the fact that Baal is not completely wrong. He identifies a real concern and acts on it, probably with a great deal of self-interest, but if his methods were more reasonable, wouldn’t he be making a very good point?

On the other hand, this also continues to demonstrate how a beaten foe is not a completely docile foe. The Goa’uld will continue to look for ways to rise again, and the rise of the Ori presents them with opportunity. They have already taken a degree of control over human politics and they are making moves on the Jaffa. Resources that might have been devoted to containing and addressing the Goa’uld are now focused on a greater threat.

I was also a bit more impressed with the Mitchell subplot. Unlike “Collateral Damage”, which attempted to give Mitchell depth through a forced storyline that shoved the rest of the cast into the background. This time, however, the writers made the character development part of a more balanced episode, and I was far more pleased. (OK, it was a bit much for Mitchell to drag alien technology into the middle of a public hospital and then leave it there, but I’ll set that aside for the moment!)

What I didn’t buy was the suggestion that Teal’c was actually considering surrender and that he was ever in any compelling danger. I’m not sure if it was the writing or the editing, but it just didn’t gel. Similarly, the battle sequences were just plain wrong. How many times were people exposed, in the middle of the firefight, and not one shot was taken at them? It just didn’t come together very well.

In terms of the Jaffa election, it’s likely that Bra’tac or Teal’c will be heavily involved in the new government, if not elected to the highest positions. If the Ori become enough of a threat to require a stronger response by the Jaffa, then this would make sense. However, even if this episode had some good ideas in terms of the Jaffa/Goa’uld interaction, I still think the snakeheads need to stay well in the background. It just seems better to keep them out of sight until a strong role can be found for them.

KillerMercury
January 28th, 2006, 05:33 PM
I agree with you both. They're in a temple on the planet of Dakara and all Daniel can find to occupy his time is bouncing a ball off a wall? You mean they've translated every single inscription on every single wall and artifact in that place?

That just shows me how much Jack has rubbed off on him over the years. Daniel's come out of his "geeky shell" and is becoming more of a, dare I say it, normal (or as normal as any person could get). He's become a little bit restless, and it's understandable. Democracy is a big step for Jaffa, so everybody's anxious, that's just how Daniel calms down.

joasia
January 28th, 2006, 05:56 PM
OK, Baal needs to test his cloning facilities. Because it looks that this week's Baal is a bootleg copy of the original or the original is not so intelligent as he would like to be. Why?

The symbiont-removal procedure is known to undo brainwashing for Jaffa.
It worked for Teal'c once.
Because of that Teal's is harder to brainwash.
Teal'c does not have a symbiont anymore.

So Baal's course of action has been the only logical one:

Teal'c will not get another tretonine shot until he will be almost on a verge od death - and if he goes and gets it he will be mine! It has to work! After all not getting his ground goa'uld dose on time is nothing like removing a symbionte (see 1.), right? Right!?

I'm beginning to think that, considering this flawless logic shown above, Baal should change his name a little. To Baal Adder. Or Baaldrick. It has been such a cunning plan after all... :D

Agent_Dark
January 28th, 2006, 06:05 PM
and she didn't leave classified tech lying around in a hospital ;)
Can't really fault Mitchell there. The hospital is fully aware of what happens at the SGC (Mitchell talking with that female doctor confirmed it. She says something like 'we have access to technology that most places dont'). Plus I doubt Sam would have brought the tech over by herself. There would have been Airman that helped her ;)

Agent_Dark
January 28th, 2006, 06:09 PM
You know, I never heard the word flanged before this thread. I had always just called it the Goa'uldy voice.
It's actually the technical term used for that type of audio effect ;)

Agent_Dark
January 28th, 2006, 06:17 PM
The episode was good overall. The Mitchell friend dying plot dragged on a bit, and possibly got too much emphasis while the Teal'c missing plot kinda got shoved over.
The Sam/Cam and Cam/Teal'c moments were good though, maybe the best thing to come out of Mitchell's dying friend plot.
Landry saying the 'Teal'c is family' line was odd - it just didn't come off right. That line made me wish Hammond was back in charge :(
Sam in command - Hooah! The battle sequence was pretty cool for the most part. Bra'tac giving air cover in the Alkesh (though Ba'al's air defences need a little work... ;)), Carter charging up the ramp with the SG teams following and the ensuing gun battle. Mitchell going up to take out the staff emplacement was cool (though why their sniper didn't take it out I don't know...) but his charging off Rambo style was definitely not cool. It screamed 'Hollywood Action Movie' to me, and felt really lame. Probably the biggest downer of the episode.

Also I've noticed their using a few more weapons now... G-36's and DAO-12 Stryker shotguns (Mitchell had one of the Stryker shotguns). I also noticed BSG were using the DAO-12's for a few episodes too.... O.o

LMichelle
January 28th, 2006, 06:21 PM
This ep kind of bored me. It was nice to see someone on SG-1 has a personal life. The SGC seems to frown upon that.

So if I become terminally ill can I find out about the Stargate program, too? ;)

Dani347
January 28th, 2006, 06:43 PM
It's actually the technical term used for that type of audio effect ;)


Now how come everyone knew that but me?

LMichelle

So if I become terminally ill can I find out about the Stargate program, too?

Or, you could get zatted.

BubblingOverWithIdeas
January 28th, 2006, 06:51 PM
Everyone who thinks Cameron would be susceptible to Baal's brainwashing please post so.

betjam
January 28th, 2006, 07:23 PM
I had a hard time with letting Mitchell "tell" his buddy everything.

All those soldiers lined up to go through the gate and into the heat of battle and no helmets for SG-1. (I know, it's a TV show)

I really liked the Jaffa robes and the way they have the draped neckscarves and the big necklaces.

nccjones
January 28th, 2006, 07:28 PM
All those soldiers lined up to go through the gate and into the heat of battle and no helmets for SG-1. (I know, it's a TV show).

Very true. In the early years they always wore their kevlar helmets so I'm not sure why they didn't here. I also miss the original Stargate music whenever they are dealing with the Goua'ld. It would have been nice to hear that nee'eet nee'eet (ok, so I'm tone deaf) like they played alot in the first season. Whenever that music played you knew a system lord was around the corner.

shaqarava
January 28th, 2006, 07:31 PM
Baal admitted he doesn't see himself as a true god, and doesn't care about being worshipped should he take control of the Jaffa nation. Yet why were there Jaffa serving under him? Was all that god thing speech just for teal'c, whilst he still told other stupid jaffa he was still a god? Or were those jaffa brainwashed?

Agent_Dark
January 28th, 2006, 07:33 PM
Very true. In the early years they always wore their kevlar helmets so I'm not sure why they didn't here.
I think its got to do with the filming side of things. The helmets kind of obscure the actor's features making it harder to identify them, especially on wide shots.

Mattathias2.0
January 28th, 2006, 07:35 PM
Great episode, I love both plots, and how they progressed.

I love Bra'tac... and loved him in this episode. It's nice to see how he fits into the Jaffa Nation and Council.

The bit of him using the al'kesh and getting captured by Ba'al-clone was awesome.

Ba'al was also good in this episode. I wondered how he would react in regards to the Ori regarding Jaffa.

Teal'c was great in this episode.

Definately a great episode. Kudos on the person who caught that Jaffa dude who plays a character on Gilmore Girls, I hadn't noticed.

Also, we have seen Ka'lel before, she was in Sacrifices, at the SGC ;) (she's played by Simon Bally).

Mattathias

majorsal
January 28th, 2006, 08:02 PM
and inboth cases, when sam told jacob and when she told pete, she had permission from her boss to reveal classified info. in fact, george was in the room when sam told dad. and when she told pete, she not only got permission but read him chapter and verse on the treason he'd be committing if he told anyone else.

sam did tell those two men what was going on. after following the proper procedures. and she didn't leave classified tech lying around in a hospital ;)

regarding chimera, when *did* sam get clearance to tell pete? just after pete got hurt, sam said, "I promise if you make it through this, I will explain everything".... who gave her that clearance?

(chimera will be my number 1 sore spot forever)



sally :)

majorsal
January 28th, 2006, 08:10 PM
Nah. I'm not trying to say that there's only one way to see it. And I'm certainly not trying to imply that Mitchell single-handedly rescued Teal'c. I am, however, surprised that Mitchell's behavior during the battle is being interpreted as heroic or praiseworthy rather than dangerous and foolhardy and, you guessed it, rash. Just because Mitchell admits the quality in himself shouldn't excuse the liability of it. If the whole point of the stuff at the hospital (which while being a bit overdrawn, was well done for the most part) with the dying friend was Cam coming to term's with causing his friend's injury, doesn't his behavior at the end undermine any growth he garnered from that experience? Isn't he just as bad, or worse, now for still doing wrong?

to be honest, i'm not sure 'what' mitchell's motivations were for charging ahead on his own in the battlefield. i've only seen this ep once and was paying more attention to 'sam leading!:D' than what mitchell was doing, but... you bring up some very good points.

so, for anyone that can answer: why was mitchell so hot-headed in the battle scene? what was he trying to prove?



sally :)

Dani347
January 28th, 2006, 08:23 PM
regarding chimera, when *did* sam get clearance to tell pete? just after pete got hurt, sam said, "I promise if you make it through this, I will explain everything".... who gave her that clearance?

(chimera will be my number 1 sore spot forever)



sally :)

Never on screen, as far as I can remember, but I thought it was one of those things that was supposed to be understood.

Shipperahoy
January 28th, 2006, 08:30 PM
Well Sam told Pete what's the what at the SGC. I don't see her doing that without clearance. However, I still don't see who in their right minds would think it's o.k. to give a civilian cop clearance on top secret military activities just because he's dating a cop. Yeah he got shot at by a Gou'ald by it's not like the military has never made up stuff to cover things up before.:cameron:

As far as Cam telling his buddy I find that slightly more plausible because A)he's actually in the military and B) he wasn't going to be around long enough to tell anybody. I do agree that it felt off to me for Cam to just wheel in the top secret stuff and then saunter out. Was it a military hospital? Was the room guarded? What about the nurses and personnel who come and go from the room? Do they all have clearance? However, it's a fairly small nitpick as far as nitpicks go. I tend to let a lot of stuff slide in the name of artistic license.

the fifth man
January 28th, 2006, 08:41 PM
I watched it again today, and liked it even more than I did on the first pass. Ba'al is such an excellent character. I just can't get over his admitting that the Goa'uld may have gone a little overboard on the whole God thing. That was great. Ptb, please let Ba'al be around to plague us for some time to come.

Skydiver
January 28th, 2006, 08:41 PM
Never on screen, as far as I can remember, but I thought it was one of those things that was supposed to be understood.
since sam was quoting him chapter and verse of what law he'd be breaking and the airman was outside eavesdropping, it's implied that she got permission from hammy to tell him

once he's 'in' and bound by the confidentiality thing, they control him. he keeps digging they can lock his tush up. so telling pete was damage control

Giantevilhead
January 28th, 2006, 08:46 PM
I keep getting distracted by the Jaffa named after Superman.

the fifth man
January 28th, 2006, 08:55 PM
I keep getting distracted by the Jaffa named after Superman.

I know what you mean.:D

DEM
January 28th, 2006, 08:59 PM
All those soldiers lined up to go through the gate and into the heat of battle and no helmets for SG-1. (I know, it's a TV show)
This bugged me too. I spent most of the fight scene muttering, "Where's her cover?" This show has had plenty of battle scenes with the speaking characters wearing headgear; the lack of it here was odd. Then again, that entire scene was poorly directed, IMO.

I know Daniel has "changed and grown" and "picked stuff up" over the years, but I, too, thought he looked out of place as part of the assault force. The handgun and lack of headgear likely contributed to this.

Overall, I was meh about the ep. I'm not particularly disappointed that I didn't record it. Mitchell simply does not work for me, and he works less and less with each passing week. On the upside, Carter was fantastic, and I think McCullough did the best job I've seen this season of making all of the main characters' actions have real worth, including those characters who were barely in the ep. However, I still don't care for this trend; I would prefer true team focus and balanced use of the actors across episodes.

majorsal
January 28th, 2006, 09:07 PM
regarding the baal clones; so the symbiotes are cloned too?


sally :)

majorsal
January 28th, 2006, 09:10 PM
Also I've noticed their using a few more weapons now... G-36's and DAO-12 Stryker shotguns (Mitchell had one of the Stryker shotguns). I also noticed BSG were using the DAO-12's for a few episodes too.... O.o

i notice guns too. except where you name them all, i just know they're guns and bullets come out of them. :p



sally :)

majorsal
January 28th, 2006, 09:13 PM
Everyone who thinks Cameron would be susceptible to Baal's brainwashing please post so.

i do!!

but i also think sam and daniel would. and landry.

baal has his ways. :p



sally :)

majorsal
January 28th, 2006, 09:21 PM
Well Sam told Pete what's the what at the SGC. I don't see her doing that without clearance. However, I still don't see who in their right minds would think it's o.k. to give a civilian cop clearance on top secret military activities just because he's dating a cop. Yeah he got shot at by a Gou'ald by it's not like the military has never made up stuff to cover things up before.:cameron:


and LOOK how he found out about everything! talking spying :rolleyes:



As far as Cam telling his buddy I find that slightly more plausible because A)he's actually in the military and B) he wasn't going to be around long enough to tell anybody. I do agree that it felt off to me for Cam to just wheel in the top secret stuff and then saunter out. Was it a military hospital? Was the room guarded? What about the nurses and personnel who come and go from the room? Do they all have clearance? However, it's a fairly small nitpick as far as nitpicks go. I tend to let a lot of stuff slide in the name of artistic license.

some things passed over me last night because i was so happy to not have sam (and mitchell) come off as treasonists. ;)

i know it kind of makes you scratch your head on just how the device got back to the sgc and such, but i still 'really' liked how mitchell introduced his friend to the realities of alien life and the sgc program. it was a *beautiful* gesture and moment that i'm sure made his friend's last moments wonderful. (just wish his friend hadn't died *and* wish mitchell would have been there with him)



sally :)

majorsal
January 28th, 2006, 09:24 PM
since sam was quoting him chapter and verse of what law he'd be breaking and the airman was outside eavesdropping, it's implied that she got permission from hammy to tell him

once he's 'in' and bound by the confidentiality thing, they control him. he keeps digging they can lock his tush up. so telling pete was damage control

i'm talking about just when pete got hurt and sam started saying she'd tell him everything. as far as i can see, she *didn't* have that permission yet.



sally :)

Dani347
January 28th, 2006, 10:03 PM
Well, if we believe that Sam wouldn't have told if it turned out she didn't get permission, I'd say the worst she would have done was make a promise she wouldn't be able to keep, which would make her overconfident and maybe Pete would feel she might make a pattern of breaking promises. But, since she didn't tell him anything except to tell him that she would tell him everything, I don't think she did anything legally wrong.

majorsal
January 28th, 2006, 10:11 PM
Well, if we believe that Sam wouldn't have told if it turned out she didn't get permission, I'd say the worst she would have done was make a promise she wouldn't be able to keep, which would make her overconfident and maybe Pete would feel she might make a pattern of breaking promises. But, since she didn't tell him anything except to tell him that she would tell him everything, I don't think she did anything legally wrong.

okay, i accept that. :D



sally :)

Quinn Mallory
January 28th, 2006, 10:24 PM
Once again, it was an enjoyable episode.

I was however, quite bothered by Landry saying that Mitchell could have sit out the rescue mission of Teal'c had he wanted. Like Landry said later, Teal'c is family and there is no way that Mitchell should have possibly missed out on the operation rescue Teal'c.

Another thing that bothered me was the number of old, non warrior looking, guys in the Jaffa Senate. Hello? The Jaffas were essentially slaves not so long ago and they need to be fit and warrior liked to achieve any kind of status. I thought it was kind of unbelievable that some of those guys could be Jaffa leaders (they do look much more like our politicians than Jaffa politicians).

I'm on the fence on whether I liked the usage of the memory device from "Collateral Damage."

From the airplane attendant comment, I guess Cam "Shaft" Mitchell can really shaft (but wouldn't memories of this sort had been filtered out...in the Earth version of the machine anyway?).

binkpmmc
January 28th, 2006, 10:37 PM
The more posts I am seeing asking to have the team interact as a team the more worried I get that TPTB will continue to ignore us. Especially in light of Cooper's quote about this issue in a recent article I saw. I also fear for the relationship between the BIG 3 of Sam, Daniel and Teal'c - the more we ask for that the less we see of it as well. They seem to be having fun sticking it to the fans (at least the long time fans) these days . . . .

Shipperahoy
January 28th, 2006, 11:05 PM
I never saw anything wrong with Sam telling Pete about the SGC. I always assumed she'd had clearance. It just never crossed my mind that she would tell him everything without getting permission first. My main problem with Pete being given clearance was HOW he got involved enough to come between the shootout with Osiris. It still bugs me 2 years later that he followed Sam to that stake out. Oh well. Bygones.

It felt much more natural with Mitchell and his friend. Granted it was Sam/Jacob part deux but I liked their rapport and as Sally said it was very poignant the way that Cam showed him his memories and you could tell he was at peace with his imminent death. And it gave more insight into Mitchell's character. I know that a lot of people had trouble with SuperCam but it didn't come off that way to me at all. He was dealing with many emotions at that time and I'm sure he's not the first soldier to get caught up in the heat of battle, nor the last.

Quinn Mallory
January 28th, 2006, 11:31 PM
The more posts I am seeing asking to have the team interact as a team the more worried I get that TPTB will continue to ignore us. Especially in light of Cooper's quote about this issue in a recent article I saw. I also fear for the relationship between the BIG 3 of Sam, Daniel and Teal'c - the more we ask for that the less we see of it as well. They seem to be having fun sticking it to the fans (at least the long time fans) these days . . . .

I think this was supposed to be the season that we see more team interaction since the show is not restricted by RDA's schedule anymore. So it has been a bit disappointing that we don't see SG-1 work together that often. I don't think TPTB is "having fun sticking it to the fans" but instead it's the desire of the writing staffs to tell "bigger" stories that is driving the team apart. In some ways, this does make sense. Teal'c is needed for the free Jaffa nation stuff and really having two Lt. Col. working together is often the case where one is sort of wasted.

rhade
January 29th, 2006, 12:00 AM
I thought that it was obvious that it was a military hospital that had clearance in the first few minutes of the episode and knowing that Mitchell's friend was dying and had exposure to contractors that wroked with the government I thought it was more of fulfilling a last request with the help of a well placed friend than anything else. I hate it when people who watch need that everything has to be spelled out for them, when all you have to do is look a little closer and read between the lines to see what was not said can be just as important as what is.

PG15
January 29th, 2006, 12:23 AM
Overall a pretty solid episode. I like the "un-God-like" Goa'uld angle they played up. Wonderful to see Ba'al basically parodying himself, on purpose!

I liked Mitchell's friend. You know (for sure) you're going to die, so why not just accept it? I kinda like that attitude, which is kinda odd I suppose.

Cool ground battle and music at the end.

I'm REALLY beginning to like Mitchell, he's very consistant. In fact, from his interview, he's not unlike Ben Browder.

Oh, and Bra'tac is freaking intense! Awesome.

Overall 3.5/5


The more posts I am seeing asking to have the team interact as a team the more worried I get that TPTB will continue to ignore us. Especially in light of Cooper's quote about this issue in a recent article I saw. I also fear for the relationship between the BIG 3 of Sam, Daniel and Teal'c - the more we ask for that the less we see of it as well. They seem to be having fun sticking it to the fans (at least the long time fans) these days . . . .

I mean no offense...but fans like us are a very small minority (those that actively participate online and actually tries to speak to TPTB), so it's not really surprising that they ignore us.

I for one will be worried the day they stop.

Also, I really REALLY doubt they are actively trying to screw us. It just doesn't make any sense.

leaper
January 29th, 2006, 02:21 AM
I liked this episode, although, I will be disappointed if that wasn't a Ba'al clone, because it was just waaaay too easy.

I liked how the team worked together, accepting others personal commitments, the backing of Mitchell when he took off ahead, and the acceptance and backing that let him continue on, to get to the ship.
I thought the Mitchell and his dying buddy stuff was important, to Mitchell, its one thing to accept that you yourself are impulsive and/or hotheaded, but as his friend pointed out, it has worked well for him.

Buzz Lightyear
January 29th, 2006, 02:49 AM
regarding the baal clones; so the symbiotes are cloned too?

I don't think the clones need to actually have symbiotes.

Kas
January 29th, 2006, 03:06 AM
From the airplane attendant comment, I guess Cam "Shaft" Mitchell can really shaft

I'm a bit confused about the idea of a flight attendant/stewardess 'quickie' I've seen posted on some boards.

Cam definitely said 'Flt Lt.' as is Flight Leftenant. I took it that it involved an encounter with a fellow officer way back. The age he is doesn't make several encounters impossible in his lifetime. Doesn't mean they are all one-night stands.

AlphaBlu
January 29th, 2006, 05:57 AM
Mitchell was showing initiative. There was a Staff Cannon enplacement pinning the rescue team down and another Jaffa in some hardened cover. Mitchell used the chaos to sneak forward and eliminate both positions. This, in turn, took the heat off the rescue units and they were then able to advance.

He was in a bad mood and was probably more brash than he needed to be, but he was hardly 'disobeying orders' or any other such nonsense.

On a different note, Stronghold was awesome. I really did think that Teal'c would kill Bra'tac, and the battle at the end was cool. The B-plot wasn't about Mitchell's friend dying, it was about Mitchell, and worked in very nicley to his actions at the end.

BYE

The Engineer
January 29th, 2006, 06:17 AM
It was a good episode.

Tok'Ra Hostess
January 29th, 2006, 07:32 AM
Another good ep. Wow, what's this season coming to? :D

I really enjoyed both plotlines, the action, the character building, the guest stars - yup, pretty much everything.

I found it a bit strange that Sam, mission commander at such a crucial stage in mission pre-op(Yeah! Go Sam! :D ), would bring the memory device to the hospital, though. Don't they have Lieutenants for such services? And leaving alien tech lying around in a somewhat public place? With all the possibilities for spies and infiltrators, you'd think Cam would have at least left some trusted Lieutenant to guard access to the room.

Sam and Daniel are gonna watch Cam's back on the surface while he rings up to the ship.... uh.... what? :confused: That made no sense to me, whatsoever. And why didn't they get blasted to bits by Jaffa once the rings - their only cover - disappeared? Okay, so the writers wanted Cam up there by himself, I get that, but the means of getting him there was poorly executed, IMO.

Still and all, a good, rewatchable ep. I did like that they not only had Cam say he was impatient and rash, but actually let him be impatient and rash once he got onto the battlefield. Good character development. Kudos. Please, PTB, do more of this telling with showing.

His buddy was terrific, as was their friendship, banter and Cam's guilt. I really jumped when he hit the coffee dispenser, and I was in tears during the final scene between Cam and Teal'c. I was kinda hoping they'd bring in some beamout tech to get that piece of shrapnel out of dying buddy(sorry, name escapes me). He'd have been up to speed for joining the SGC, too. :) I think he'd have made a fun addition to one of the teams.

I know many here don't care for the whole Jaffa story, but surely this time is different? I've always liked it but especially this ep. And having Bra'tac take such a forward role in the ep was a treat!

And Ba'al.... What can I say; he's a great baddie. He's really embraced the Tauri business/politician mindset, hasn't he?

Rock on, season nine! :D

Strix varia
January 29th, 2006, 08:54 AM
I know that a lot of people had trouble with SuperCam but it didn't come off that way to me at all. He was dealing with many emotions at that time and I'm sure he's not the first soldier to get caught up in the heat of battle, nor the last.
The only problem with that, Shipper, is that in dangerous occupations when your leader/buddy has a bad day and can't control him/herself, people end up dying. It's like football where the players get caught up in the heat of battle... whoops, there's a quick fifteen yard penalty for a personal foul hurting the team. Only in combat, it's whoops, there's a couple people killed or wounded because someone was too stupid to think.

Strix varia
January 29th, 2006, 08:59 AM
Mitchell was showing initiative. There was a Staff Cannon enplacement pinning the rescue team down and another Jaffa in some hardened cover. Mitchell used the chaos to sneak forward and eliminate both positions. This, in turn, took the heat off the rescue units and they were then able to advance.
I think that argument might work up until the point he took off for the pyramid without backup.

On edit: And I blame the writers for this entirely... they could easily have written it to where he didn't do anything wrong. But the fact that they had him cornered by Jaffa at the end sort of indicated to me that they purposefully wanted him to come across as having been out of line. Unfortunately, for me, that didn't help his character.

jckfan55
January 29th, 2006, 09:55 AM
I don't know if they could do an entire episode around it, but it would be nice to see it come up in an episode where Bra'tac is elected leader.

majorsal

Agreed. Not a whole episode, but a minute or 2 of story time perhaps.

Tok'Ra Hostess
January 29th, 2006, 10:57 AM
The only problem with that, Shipper, is that in dangerous occupations when your leader/buddy has a bad day and can't control him/herself, people end up dying. It's like football where the players get caught up in the heat of battle... whoops, there's a quick fifteen yard penalty for a personal foul hurting the team. Only in combat, it's whoops, there's a couple people killed or wounded because someone was too stupid to think.

But wasn't that exactly the point of the b-plot, to show that Cam can be rash under pressure, and others end up paying the price? Didn't Sam call out to him when he dashed off to do what, this time, turned out to be a successful stupid move?

I think there's potential here for Cam to make some rash action that will really put his team in jeopardy. I look forward to it. :D

Dani347
January 29th, 2006, 10:59 AM
Okay, everywhere I go, I read about this episode being Daniel-lite. But, isn't it more Sam-lite? She disappeared from the episode after the briefing, all the way until she came to bring the memory device to Mitchell.

Now, at first, I was just looking at the quality of the Daniel scenes, and wasn't thinking of quantity. The quality was fantastic, imo. (By quality, of course I mean character wise and plot wise) Daniel was Daniel, he contributed, and in a realistic fashion -meaning it was clear that he wasn't in charge, but he wasn't tagging along, either. I felt Daniel was in character throughout the whole thing. So, I would feel it was good for Daniel based on that alone. But, then, I decided to see what the quantity was like. I counted 7 scenes spaced out throughout the episode that he was in. Now, I already knew he wouldn't have the most scenes, but I think 7 is hardly light, or it didn't feel that way to me. Plus, like I said, I felt he contributed or conveyed info to the audience in the majority. I'd say only the very beginning where they found out from Bra'tac that Teal'c was missing, did he not really do much, but since it was just the set up scenes, so I wasn't expecting anything from that. And, I didn't count the battle scene, but I suppose it could count as 8. So, like I said, a Sam-lite episode, yeah. I see that. I don't see a Daniel-lite episode, especially an episode that was more lite for Daniel than any of the others.

binkpmmc
January 29th, 2006, 11:14 AM
But wasn't that exactly the point of the b-plot, to show that Cam can be rash under pressure, and others end up paying the price? Didn't Sam call out to him when he dashed off to do what, this time, turned out to be a successful stupid move?

I think there's potential here for Cam to make some rash action that will really put his team in jeopardy. I look forward to it. :D

This alone indicates he should not be co-leader of this team - he is too emotional and is not ready. If he can be rash under pressure than he has no business co-leading anyone, anywhere until he can control that because he could very well get himself, and worse yet, a teammate injured or killed with his rash hot-headed, emotionally charged stunts, all because he "had a bad day" - that would be the "others end up paying the price" part. No excuse for anyone in the real world in a professional position and no excuse for a supposed military man with a supposed wonderfully mary-sue background who is supposed co-leader of this team.

His behaviour distracts the other team members from the job they are out to do since they have to go off after a half-cocked Mitchell to save his rash, hot-headed a$$ while they're supposedly on a rescue mission for Teal'c - bad form, very bad form. If he wasn't the supposed co-leader this type of behaviour may not be so bad as it could be part of his character as he works with SG1 to "learn from the best" which was the original premise stated in Avalon - maybe then this type of rash, immature behaviour, which IMO shows very bad judgment, would be acceptable and would make sense within the context of the team.

AGateFan
January 29th, 2006, 11:25 AM
But wasn't that exactly the point of the b-plot, to show that Cam can be rash under pressure, and others end up paying the price? Didn't Sam call out to him when he dashed off to do what, this time, turned out to be a successful stupid move?

I think there's potential here for Cam to make some rash action that will really put his team in jeopardy. I look forward to it. :D

You look forward to the team "lead" putting the team in jeopardy? Really?
Ok, so if my disconnect is that great then there is no hope that I will ever enjoy this show.

IMHO the team "lead" should not be the one putting the team in jeopardy, he should be the one pulling the team out of jeopardy when other people do something foolish to put it in jeopardy. So if this is Mitchells role then he should not be the "lead" he should be the new hothead 2ic or something. JMHO.

Tok'Ra Hostess
January 29th, 2006, 11:35 AM
You look forward to the team "lead" putting the team in jeopardy? Really?


I was talking about the potential for good drama, that's all.

I'm not going to enter into any debate over Mitchel's "right to lead." I wouldn't have written him that way, but TPTB have and it's their call to make. So, working with what's been given us, I'm just saying....

:)

Strix varia
January 29th, 2006, 11:42 AM
But wasn't that exactly the point of the b-plot, to show that Cam can be rash under pressure, and others end up paying the price? Didn't Sam call out to him when he dashed off to do what, this time, turned out to be a successful stupid move?

I think there's potential here for Cam to make some rash action that will really put his team in jeopardy. I look forward to it. :D
But nobody paid a price this time. His friend told him he shouldn't change, so he didn't, and he got to go up to the ship by himself, play the hero, rescue Teal'c, and earn Teal'c's undying gratitude for saving his life. Where is the lesson in that? That is telling me that it's okay to be rash and impatient under pressure... you win a few you lose a few, why change?

The writers seem to be telling us we should view Mitchell as a hero most of the time, then a buffoon and comedic relief part of the time, then, I don't know what we were supposed to get out this ep, exactly, except that he's sometimes rash and impatient with mixed results, but maybe that he's going to be true to himself from now on (whatever that means)... and all of that would be perfectly okay, except that he was given the leadership of SG-1. That's my sticking point. For some reason, I have it in my head the leader of Earth's flagship team, a Lt. Colonel in the United States Airforce, should do better than periodically put his team in jeopardy because he's naturally impatient.

On edit: As a junior officer, he'd be a great character, and I wouldn't be discussing this as an issue.

Skydiver
January 29th, 2006, 02:14 PM
On edit: As a junior officer, he'd be a great character, and I wouldn't be discussing this as an issue.

i thnk that's my issue. if cam was a major or captain, he'd be cool. he'd be fun and i could see the flightyness coming into play. he's exhuberant and it shows. and while i do enjoy cam, i find it a bit worrying that the writers, while telling us ad nauseum how great and wonderful and fantastic he is have yet to really SHOW us that he's got the right stuff to be a team leader.


that's gonna be cam's greatest handicap.

as to his brashness getting someone hurt. might happen. but i'm sure he'll either treat us wiht a great angst fest or he'll be absolved with a 'that's ok cam, i know you've had a rough day' cause that seems to be the only way the writers want to treat thier new super hero

nccjones
January 29th, 2006, 03:19 PM
i thnk that's my issue. if cam was a major or captain, he'd be cool. he'd be fun and i could see the flightyness coming into play. he's exhuberant and it shows. and while i do enjoy cam, i find it a bit worrying that the writers, while telling us ad nauseum how great and wonderful and fantastic he is have yet to really SHOW us that he's got the right stuff to be a team leader.


that's gonna be cam's greatest handicap.

as to his brashness getting someone hurt. might happen. but i'm sure he'll either treat us wiht a great angst fest or he'll be absolved with a 'that's ok cam, i know you've had a rough day' cause that seems to be the only way the writers want to treat thier new super hero

I have to agree on this. I don't think his character would bother me as much if he became the 4th on the show and maybe a Capt or Major. Then all of this would make sense and it wouldn't bother me as much. But since it's apparent TPTB want him to be the star and hero of the show, the others are getting pushed aside like when they were by the rings and only Mitchell went up...riiiiiiight, only one could go up because they may not have a way down. That excuse does not fly in my book. I don't recall the team ever letting just one go because they may not get back, they always went as a team. This was purely contrived so Mitchell could go up and be the hero and rescue Teal'c so he'll have his undying gratitude. Gag me with a spoon.

Tok'Ra Hostess
January 29th, 2006, 03:54 PM
On edit: As a junior officer, he'd be a great character, and I wouldn't be discussing this as an issue.

You'll get no argument from me on that point.

Makes me wonder if the screw up that cost Buddy his health, his position on the X303 mission and, ultimately, his life, is a secret only those two shared. Mitchell has an impeccable record. Surely a screw-up would have been noted on his record and General Whatisname would have remarked on it, even called into question Jack's decision to let Cam have command of SG-1.

The way it was presented I can't help but think that it is a secret, but that only serves to diminish the character even more, which I doubt the PTB intended.

PG15
January 29th, 2006, 04:11 PM
Wasn't the buddy injured because he tried to help Cam?

Shep'sSocks
January 30th, 2006, 01:33 AM
Haven't seen all of this episode but I like it heaps, if only because Reed Diamond (squeeee!), Ba'al (in camel suede, squeeeee!) and Mingo. Or possibly, Fanti.

Draugr
January 30th, 2006, 09:09 AM
Am I the only one who wants the Jaffa to submit to Baal?

Also, the little skirmish at the end reminded of the old days when the Goa'uld were in their prime.

valaCB
January 30th, 2006, 09:38 AM
Ben was VERY good when he was with his friend but when he joined to the team...i didn't like it, it's like no chemistry between the main characters

P.S - BEN IS HOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :cameron: WOW!

ChillinTheMost
January 30th, 2006, 09:58 AM
yes, but it is still highly unprofessional response.
I just figured he had the guilt thing going so he was trying to get himself killed.... I know I have seen\heard that on some other show and it seemed like the same thing... Very notsogood for his character.

Maybe, but it pulled the two stories together.


so, for anyone that can answer: why was mitchell so hot-headed in the battle scene? what was he trying to prove?

He wasn't trying to prove anything and he wasn't hot-headed. He was rash and impetuous, but not hot-headed.

Mitchell's friend was dying because he was injured saving Mitchell's life. In Mitchell's opinion, it would have been his friend that would be on the SG-1 team if this had not happened, not himself. I think Mitchell saw that the gunman had to be taken out and ran up the hill without consulting others because at that moment, he felt he was expendible. He felt that he shouldn't be there in the first place and if anybody was going to die doing this, it should be himself that takes the chance. I don't think that he was suicidal, just that he felt expendible. I don't think he was near enough to Sam to tell her what he was going to do [and couldn't hear her holler to stop] and I don't think he radioed her because he just wanted to do it. He wasn't thinking straight, just that if anybody was going to die, it was going to be him, and he wasn't going to watch another friend and team member take his place again. It was wrong not to contact Sam, but, again, I don't think he was thinking straight, just that he was going to do this to try to take the others out of danger. I certainly don't think it was because he in any way doubted that Sam was running this operation. Back in the SGC, when he was thinking more rationally, he joined the ranks following Sam without question or hesitation.

In the ring room, I think he was trying for the old "my calvary is behind you" trick to get the Jaffa to turn around. Of course, this was the old, "'my calvary is behind you' when it really IS behind you" trick that is a stall tactic to make the Jaffa hesitate in shooting while giving Sam and Daniel the second that they would need upon running into the room to size up the situation and shoot the right guys. Sam and Daniel were going to run to the ring room when the coast was clear anyway, that was the mission, so Mitchell running there first did not put Sam or Daniel in any more danger than they would have been if he hadn't done anything. His actions cleared the way, they did not endanger others.

In my interpretation of the scene, I'm not saying that what Mitchell did was right, but I don't think it was done out of disrepect for Sam or her leadership and I don't think it endangered anyone but himself and I think it was directly related to how he felt guilty for his friend's impending death and that maybe he could ease some of the guilt by saving these friends.

Dani347
January 30th, 2006, 11:23 AM
I really didn't get a suicidal or expendable vibe from Mitchell's actions. I think, aside from wanting to give visual confirmation to him saying he was impatient, that this was the result of his buddy saying that this is who he (Mitchell) is, and it's not a bad thing. I think he was saying that it was one of those things that done one way could be bad, but another way could be a good thing. Like, Daniel can be persistant, which is a good thing, but flip it around and the same trait can be stubborness.

I actually think I would have prefered the friend not tell him that this was a good thing. He could still have tried to alleviate the guilt without saying that. Because it made it seem like Mitchell felt that being impatient wasn't such a bad thing after all, and he should just accept that part of himself and use it. I would have prefered that he did it not because someone said it was okay, but because he was still just impatient. Because he hadn't learned the lesson to hold back. But, they never presented that as the lesson, so he didn't have a chance to fail this time at learning it. I wouldn't want him to learn the lesson in one episode by one deathbed visit with a friend. I know this sounds crazy that I would want him to still have this fault when he's supposed to be the team leader, but I'm with Tok'Ra Hostess in the potential for dramatic possibilities. They wouldn't have to have written him showing impatience in the way they did, but I don't want him to just be able to shed his flaws with too much ease. And, if they wrote no one sanctioning it, I think it would have been better. I'm still glad that Sam's attitude wasn't that what he did was okay or right, just that he might as well go ahead and finish the job (not play the hero, not singlehandedly save the day, just be the last piece of the puzzle).

ChillinTheMost
January 30th, 2006, 11:48 AM
Cam didn't even know how to operate the rings so not a well thought out plan on his part on many levels.
They were broken, Sam had to take it apart and play with the crystals or whatever to get it to work. We saw that Mitchell knew how to work the rings in the first episodes.


We learn various things about Cam: he went to the Academy, he's reckless, hot-headed, tends to move from one woman to another, and tends to crack under peer pressure. Even though he could've stood by his case a little bit longer, IMO, it was inevitable for this to happen.
When did we see all this? I'll give you reckless and rash, but hot-headed? Have we seen him lose his temper? Maybe when he broke the glass on the coffee machine, but I saw that as frustration more than a temper. Where did we see that he tends to move from one woman to another? Because he was attracted to one woman in almost a year? When did he crack under peer pressure? I'm totally lost on some of these allegations. Perhaps you can give me some scenes to illustrate your points? I'm willing to be corrected.


I think that argument might work up until the point he took off for the pyramid without backup. But wasn't it taking off? If he had waited for everyone to arrive, the ship might have left before anyone got there. As it was, they did get there, but he didn't take that chance. I do agree that someone should have gone with him onto the ship.

Dani347
January 30th, 2006, 12:28 PM
. Where did we see that he tends to move from one woman to another? Because he was attracted to one woman in almost a year?

I haven't seen that either, and you know my objections to that whole set up. But, as far as we've seen there was no woman that he had moved on from. We got a reference in CD about the difficulties of keeping a relationship going along with work, but no clue as to how long ago possible relationship for him had been.

DEM
January 30th, 2006, 12:34 PM
He wasn't trying to prove anything and he wasn't hot-headed. He was rash and impetuous, but not hot-headed.
:confused:

hotheaded
ADJECTIVE:
1. Easily angered; quick-tempered: a hotheaded commander.
2. Impetuous; rash: a hotheaded decision.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: 4th Ed. 2000.

Strix varia
January 30th, 2006, 12:56 PM
But wasn't it taking off? If he had waited for everyone to arrive, the ship might have left before anyone got there. As it was, they did get there, but he didn't take that chance. I do agree that someone should have gone with him onto the ship.

Let me go back to my firefighting analogy. Yes, you run into situations where time is a factor. If you don't immediately run into the building to rescue the person, they may die. But the operation as a whole has to lean towards the safety of rescuers. Dead firefighters can't save anyone, now or in the future. (Nor can dead soldiers.) Yes, from one perspective it's a heroic thing to do. But from another (the team perspective) it's also really, really stupid. Chances are good that your buddies are going to have to pull your ass out of the fire at great risk to themselves. You have to minimize the risk of becoming part of the problem, rather than the solution. There are ways to achieve the success of an operation, and rarely do they involve a member of a team running into significant danger alone and without backup. I could see situations in the military where it might be necessary, but I really don't think this was one of them.

There is a certain amount of risk/benefit analysis that has to go into it. If Cam were risking himself to save dozens of lives, one could argue that the potential benefit outweighed the risk. But at the point he ran off, he was essentially risking his life for Teal'c's. And both strategically and tactically I would think that he had a better chance of getting onto the ship with the help of his team rather than by himself (as well as a better chance once on board the ship). Thus I call his actions noble, perhaps, but also very stupid, particularly from a team standpoint.

Skydiver
January 30th, 2006, 01:54 PM
Am I the only one who wants the Jaffa to submit to Baal?

Also, the little skirmish at the end reminded of the old days when the Goa'uld were in their prime.
i actually found baal's strategy to be most intrigueing. and i really hope he's not dead. 'enemy of my enemy is my friend' and it's great that baal can think that forward. he's like maybourne, who was a cliche until chain reaction and desperate measures where he started to help the 'good guys'....when the situation warranted it.

all of a sudden harry had depth.

from his very inception baal was scarier than anubis (who was, quite frankly, a joke) and this ability of his to 'switch sides as the situation warrants' makes him unpredictible and interesting.

and, because of that, i really hope he's not really dead. cause if he is then they wasted a good character just as he became interesting

BigBadBob
January 30th, 2006, 02:06 PM
he's like maybourne, who was a cliche until chain reaction and desperate measures where he started to help the 'good guys'....when the situation warranted it.

all of a sudden harry had depth.


he was still an ass. Helped us, but still just an ass.

Shep'sSocks
January 30th, 2006, 03:30 PM
Having watched the rest of the episode, it suffered from being two episodes in one rather than what it should have been, two separate episodes.

The Jaffa story was interesting and became even more so when my beloved Ba'al showed up and again hammered home what a sensible and forward thinking Goa'uld he is. So, one of the clones got dead. Pity, less of them to go around for us, but he can always create another.

The Mitchell story could have been a showcase for Ben Browder who does this tortured soul thing so very well. Lots of flashbacks, etc. Reed Diamond was great, but then he always is. But this suffered greatly from being the B-story. It needed a lot more angst.

Agent_Dark
January 30th, 2006, 05:53 PM
Let me go back to my firefighting analogy. Yes, you run into situations where time is a factor. If you don't immediately run into the building to rescue the person, they may die. But the operation as a whole has to lean towards the safety of rescuers. Dead firefighters can't save anyone, now or in the future. (Nor can dead soldiers.) Yes, from one perspective it's a heroic thing to do. But from another (the team perspective) it's also really, really stupid. Chances are good that your buddies are going to have to pull your ass out of the fire at great risk to themselves. You have to minimize the risk of becoming part of the problem, rather than the solution. There are ways to achieve the success of an operation, and rarely do they involve a member of a team running into significant danger alone and without backup. I could see situations in the military where it might be necessary, but I really don't think this was one of them.

There is a certain amount of risk/benefit analysis that has to go into it. If Cam were risking himself to save dozens of lives, one could argue that the potential benefit outweighed the risk. But at the point he ran off, he was essentially risking his life for Teal'c's. And both strategically and tactically I would think that he had a better chance of getting onto the ship with the help of his team rather than by himself (as well as a better chance once on board the ship). Thus I call his actions noble, perhaps, but also very stupid, particularly from a team standpoint.
That's the best analogy I've heard of it :)

KillerMercury
January 30th, 2006, 05:55 PM
When did we see all this? I'll give you reckless and rash, but hot-headed? Have we seen him lose his temper? Maybe when he broke the glass on the coffee machine, but I saw that as frustration more than a temper. Where did we see that he tends to move from one woman to another? Because he was attracted to one woman in almost a year? When did he crack under peer pressure? I'm totally lost on some of these allegations. Perhaps you can give me some scenes to illustrate your points? I'm willing to be corrected.

Well, it seems that I am the one who needs to be corrected. I just rewatched it just now, and that second time really cleared some things up for me.

He's not hot-headed, as you said. From what I could tell, Cam hates feeling helpless, and will channel that physically. That's why there's a broken coffee machine now in the hospital.

As for the women in his life, I see him as sort of, kinda, maybe a ladies man. Or a potential for being one. Scenes off the top of my head: Jaffa woman that passes him in Dakara in Avalon, Part I; the scientist from Collateral Damage; that "second base" comment he made in Ripple Effect; the flight attendant that he had a private moment with; and the possibility of Cam/Lam said by the official magazine sometime ago. Now, I may be wrong about this, that this is normal, but that's the way it seems to me right now.

The peer pressure is something that, IMO, could've been handled better by Cam. It wasn't necessary to show his friend his experiences while with the SGC at this time. His friend knows all about the cover ups, and doesn't need much convincing that the government is keeping a big secret. Yes, his friend is dying, but he could just hold out for a little longer, right? I guess it depends from person to person.

I never said that Cam can't handle pressure. It's just in this case of peer pressure, he fell a litttle short for me. It would've been more entertaining if his friend would not know now, come back later in another episode, actually DYING, then know the secret.


Disclaimer: All opinions shown in this post can change over time.

ShardsofGlass
January 30th, 2006, 06:09 PM
The peer pressure is something that, IMO, could've been handled better by Cam. It wasn't necessary to show his friend his experiences while with the SGC at this time. His friend knows all about the cover ups, and doesn't need much convincing that the government is keeping a big secret. Yes, his friend is dying, but he could just hold out for a little longer, right? I guess it depends from person to person.

I never said that Cam can't handle pressure. It's just in this case of peer pressure, he fell a litttle short for me. It would've been more entertaining if his friend would not know now, come back later in another episode, actually DYING, then know the secret.


Disclaimer: All opinions shown in this post can change over time.

I have to speak up about the peer pressure. I didn't see the issue as peer pressure at all. Sure his friend was pressuring him in a ribbing sort of way to tell him about his secret job. But the friend was going to die soon -- could be that very day, even. You can't predict when an aneurism will burst. And he had wanted to be in the program that Cam went into, and he'd pieced together enough information to have made a lot of correct guesses.

I guess, I see it as granting a dying friend a last wish. I don't see it as succombing to peer pressure. I see it as being compassionate and being a friend. Landry gave Cam clearance, and the guy was going to go into the program before he was injured anyway, so it's not like Cam downloaded his memories into gossipy Aunt Edna or something. I thought it was a really nice moment when the friend got to really see what it was like to be part of SG-1.

Uber
January 30th, 2006, 06:22 PM
Let me go back to my firefighting analogy. Yes, you run into situations where time is a factor. If you don't immediately run into the building to rescue the person, they may die. But the operation as a whole has to lean towards the safety of rescuers. Dead firefighters can't save anyone, now or in the future. (Nor can dead soldiers.) Yes, from one perspective it's a heroic thing to do. But from another (the team perspective) it's also really, really stupid. Chances are good that your buddies are going to have to pull your ass out of the fire at great risk to themselves. You have to minimize the risk of becoming part of the problem, rather than the solution. There are ways to achieve the success of an operation, and rarely do they involve a member of a team running into significant danger alone and without backup. I could see situations in the military where it might be necessary, but I really don't think this was one of them.

There is a certain amount of risk/benefit analysis that has to go into it. If Cam were risking himself to save dozens of lives, one could argue that the potential benefit outweighed the risk. But at the point he ran off, he was essentially risking his life for Teal'c's. And both strategically and tactically I would think that he had a better chance of getting onto the ship with the help of his team rather than by himself (as well as a better chance once on board the ship). Thus I call his actions noble, perhaps, but also very stupid, particularly from a team standpoint.I figured out who Cam really is.

Remember Proving Ground? Grogan? That's who Mitchell symbolizes to me.

Sam should have reamed him out and if she weren't so dang compassionate for his loss, she would have (I hope).

They're going to gloss everything over I'm sure...but I certainly wouldn't want to have him watching my back.

KillerMercury
January 30th, 2006, 07:14 PM
I have to speak up about the peer pressure. I didn't see the issue as peer pressure at all. Sure his friend was pressuring him in a ribbing sort of way to tell him about his secret job. But the friend was going to die soon -- could be that very day, even. You can't predict when an aneurism will burst. And he had wanted to be in the program that Cam went into, and he'd pieced together enough information to have made a lot of correct guesses.

I guess, I see it as granting a dying friend a last wish. I don't see it as succombing to peer pressure. I see it as being compassionate and being a friend. Landry gave Cam clearance, and the guy was going to go into the program before he was injured anyway, so it's not like Cam downloaded his memories into gossipy Aunt Edna or something. I thought it was a really nice moment when the friend got to really see what it was like to be part of SG-1.

As I said, my opinion might change. For me, it was a bit of peer pressure on Cam. I think I need to watch the episode again. I'l get back to you.

Skydiver
January 30th, 2006, 07:26 PM
i think that sam was exasperated with him...but also knew that a ticked off cam would get teal'c back. and that their plan hadn't considered the hatak taking off

she's well used to the boys doing what they WANT to do

still doesnt' mean that she shouldn't have given cam a rather large piece ofher mind, probably ending with 'you pull that crap again, i am not going to risk other lives bailing out your rambo-immitating tush!' and 'you're lucky that colonel O'neill wasn't here wasnt' here because he'd have you scrubbing the toilets on level 25 for the next month'

then she'd tell him to take as much time as he needed for his friend's funeral and tell him that the little memory vcr better be back at the sgc as soon as possible

Skydiver
January 30th, 2006, 07:29 PM
i'm watching bloodlines right now adn i'm seeing a similarity between cam and daniel.

ok, in bloodlines, when they're at the temple, daniel goes all 'jaffa revenge' and shoots the tank of symbiotes....thus endangering sam and the rest of the team by exposing them.

i'm willing to bet that jack jumped danny's tush once he found out what he did, but we never saw it

it's very similar to what cam did in a way. acted rashly and endangered others

Shep'sSocks
January 30th, 2006, 09:54 PM
I have to speak up about the peer pressure. I didn't see the issue as peer pressure at all. Sure his friend was pressuring him in a ribbing sort of way to tell him about his secret job. But the friend was going to die soon -- could be that very day, even. You can't predict when an aneurism will burst. And he had wanted to be in the program that Cam went into, and he'd pieced together enough information to have made a lot of correct guesses.

I guess, I see it as granting a dying friend a last wish. I don't see it as succombing to peer pressure. I see it as being compassionate and being a friend. Landry gave Cam clearance, and the guy was going to go into the program before he was injured anyway, so it's not like Cam downloaded his memories into gossipy Aunt Edna or something. I thought it was a really nice moment when the friend got to really see what it was like to be part of SG-1.

I saw it as guilt that his friend got hurt and Cameron wanted to do something for him.

majorsal
January 30th, 2006, 10:02 PM
I don't think the clones need to actually have symbiotes.

but how are the baal clone's voices all goauldy-like then?




sally :)

Shep'sSocks
January 30th, 2006, 10:09 PM
One of those voicebox things, maybe?

Nathan
January 31st, 2006, 03:20 AM
Overall good episode. Right amount of angst, and thankfully this episode didn't focus on Sam's love life.

Mitchell's run for it was .... unusual. Especially for a Lt Col. But given his anger at the loss of his friend and the fact that another friend was about to be lost, I can see how anger and a desire to save one friend when he wasn't able to save another can overwhelm his sense of logic.

So far I'm loving Season 9, I hope season 10 maintains this level of great episodes.

Skydiver
January 31st, 2006, 05:37 AM
that's what scares me. ok, so they cloned baal...i don't see how they could have cloned two separate entities in the same body (the host and the snake) which means, at least how i understand things, the clones should be goauldless...which means no flanged voice.

which suggests that the REAL baal was killed. And i sincerely hope that it's just careless production and a plot hole cause i don't want him to be dead. Baal is, to me, the only real classic villian we have left.

the ori are....the oreos ;) and the lucian alliance will jsut set things up for some farscapy leather clad space adventures, probably wtih some space ship i expect them to steal early in s10

baal is the last bastion of classic stargate so i really hope he's not gone

ellenrose
January 31st, 2006, 05:41 AM
Mitchell's run for it - made sense to me ( I am not a military person though). He saw a chance to take out the guy on the hill with the big gun - he checked with the soldiers next to him ( I noted this as just watched the ep) who nodded they would back him up and he took off with them covering him. It was a quickly planned move that worked. Good idea I would say. There was no time to check with Sam for the order as she was on the other side with Daniel.

Liked the scenes in the hospital with Cameron and Fergie. Both actors were very good in those scenes. I have always liked Reed Diamond as an actor. Mitchell smashing the glass worked for me. He was upset plus I am sure that being in a hospital must be very hard for him. He spent a long time in one with his injuries plus all that time visiting his Dad in a military hospital as well. Must have been so hard to visit a dying friend and need to put on a happy sort of face. Cam did not accept his own disability, nor did his Dad but he must accept the fact that his friend who was injured saving him must die. I might smash something too.

We have seen another side of Mitchell now. In Ripple Effect the two Mitchells seemed to like each other/themselves while goofing off like brothers over the silly juice story. In this story Mitchell is not so sure about himself - not so sure he has made the right decisions in the past and yet is suffering the consequences. Plus survivor guilt - as his friend warned him. He must deal with that too.

I wonder if Mitchell will ever let himself get really close to the rest of the team? He may be holding back a bit now. Just a thought.

ChillinTheMost
January 31st, 2006, 09:24 AM
Let me go back to my firefighting analogy. Yes, you run into situations where time is a factor. If you don't immediately run into the building to rescue the person, they may die. But the operation as a whole has to lean towards the safety of rescuers. Dead firefighters can't save anyone, now or in the future. (Nor can dead soldiers.) Yes, from one perspective it's a heroic thing to do. But from another (the team perspective) it's also really, really stupid. Chances are good that your buddies are going to have to pull your ass out of the fire at great risk to themselves. You have to minimize the risk of becoming part of the problem, rather than the solution. There are ways to achieve the success of an operation, and rarely do they involve a member of a team running into significant danger alone and without backup. I could see situations in the military where it might be necessary, but I really don't think this was one of them.

There is a certain amount of risk/benefit analysis that has to go into it. If Cam were risking himself to save dozens of lives, one could argue that the potential benefit outweighed the risk. But at the point he ran off, he was essentially risking his life for Teal'c's. And both strategically and tactically I would think that he had a better chance of getting onto the ship with the help of his team rather than by himself (as well as a better chance once on board the ship). Thus I call his actions noble, perhaps, but also very stupid, particularly from a team standpoint.

I see your point and I don't disagree; I just don't see it as heinous an offense as some others do, probably because I don't think he was risking the lives of others any more than they were at risk for being on the mission in the first place. I don't have every episode memorized, but I'm sure at some point someone yelled, "Cover me!" and ran out into a firefight without giving the team time to discuss it. So, Mitchell didn't yell "Cover me!" but that also means that he didn't expect them to risk their lives laying down cover fire while he did the same thing the person yelling, "Cover me!" did. I guess because I see many westerns/action movies that do this, that it didn't affect me like it did some people.

It wasn't the smartest thing and, yes, he should have radioed Sam to tell her what he was doing, but I don't see it as an egregious offense. He was impetuous, but he saw something that needed doing and he did it. For the record, I would have had no problem if later Sam had told him what he did was wrong.

ChillinTheMost
January 31st, 2006, 09:29 AM
i actually found baal's strategy to be most intrigueing. and i really hope he's not dead. 'enemy of my enemy is my friend' and it's great that baal can think that forward. he's like maybourne, who was a cliche until chain reaction and desperate measures where he started to help the 'good guys'....when the situation warranted it...
I liked Ba'al's strategy, too. He wants to stop the Ori because he has big plans of his own and the Ori could ruin them, but that still makes the Ori the mutual enemy.

I'm not sure I could compare him with Maybourne, though. Maybourne did the wrong things, but I think his reasons were honorable [at least until everything turned against him]. I think Maybourne was doing what he really thought was right for the country. He got greedy when things went bad, but I don't doubt that patriotism was his initial motivation.

About this making him 3-dimensional though, I totally agree.

ChillinTheMost
January 31st, 2006, 09:38 AM
Well, it seems that I am the one who needs to be corrected. I just rewatched it just now, and that second time really cleared some things up for me.

He's not hot-headed, as you said. From what I could tell, Cam hates feeling helpless, and will channel that physically. That's why there's a broken coffee machine now in the hospital.

As for the women in his life, I see him as sort of, kinda, maybe a ladies man. Or a potential for being one. Scenes off the top of my head: Jaffa woman that passes him in Dakara in Avalon, Part I; the scientist from Collateral Damage; that "second base" comment he made in Ripple Effect; the flight attendant that he had a private moment with; and the possibility of Cam/Lam said by the official magazine sometime ago. Now, I may be wrong about this, that this is normal, but that's the way it seems to me right now.

He certainly has the potential for being a ladies' man! LOL. But I don't see it happening on screen, yet. Yes, he's been bold about showing his appreciation for women and made allusions to past encounters [not all successful, it seems], but he's in his late 30's, early 40's and I would expect him to have had a few liaisons. This may be developed in the future and you may well be proven correct, I'm just not seeing it now.


The peer pressure is something that, IMO, could've been handled better by Cam. It wasn't necessary to show his friend his experiences while with the SGC at this time. His friend knows all about the cover ups, and doesn't need much convincing that the government is keeping a big secret. Yes, his friend is dying, but he could just hold out for a little longer, right? I guess it depends from person to person.

I never said that Cam can't handle pressure. It's just in this case of peer pressure, he fell a litttle short for me. It would've been more entertaining if his friend would not know now, come back later in another episode, actually DYING, then know the secret.
I was surprised that this is where they took it [actually showing him the memories], but it wasn't peer pressure, it was guilt. It was because his friend was dying that Mitchell was having these adventures. He wanted to share the memories with the person he felt deserved to have them.


Disclaimer: All opinions shown in this post can change over time.
LOL. That's why I love discussing this stuff on boards! I find my opinions tweaked and I gain an understanding of why people react the way they do. I may not agree, but I can understand why they feel the way they do, and I can respect that.


from another post... As I said, my opinion might change. For me, it was a bit of peer pressure on Cam. I think I need to watch the episode again. I'l get back to you.
And having to watch the episodes again is never a bad thing... :)

ChillinTheMost
January 31st, 2006, 09:44 AM
i think that sam was exasperated with him...but also knew that a ticked off cam would get teal'c back. and that their plan hadn't considered the hatak taking off

she's well used to the boys doing what they WANT to do

still doesnt' mean that she shouldn't have given cam a rather large piece ofher mind, probably ending with 'you pull that crap again, i am not going to risk other lives bailing out your rambo-immitating tush!' and 'you're lucky that colonel O'neill wasn't here wasnt' here because he'd have you scrubbing the toilets on level 25 for the next month'

then she'd tell him to take as much time as he needed for his friend's funeral and tell him that the little memory vcr better be back at the sgc as soon as possible
As much as I'm defending Mitchell, I would have had no problem with this scenerio.

Skydiver
January 31st, 2006, 10:14 AM
even though we didn't see it, i do hope tha sam jumped his tush. while i'm sure seh can sympathize with his personal issues, if he didn't think he coud handle a mission he had no business coming along.

he needs to learn to compartmentalize his feelings, just like sam had to in the beginning

Uber
January 31st, 2006, 11:03 AM
even though we didn't see it, i do hope tha sam jumped his tush. while i'm sure seh can sympathize with his personal issues, if he didn't think he coud handle a mission he had no business coming along.

he needs to learn to compartmentalize his feelings, just like sam had to in the beginningBut we needed to see it Skydiver. Further I don't remember Sam ever EVER endangering a mission or the team because she was having a bad day. I don't remember her ever putting her personal feelings above the team for that matter...nor do I ever remember her disrespecting Jack and disregarding his orders because of her bad mood.

We needed Sam to come up to him and ream him for rushing on ahead and forcing her and Daniel to rush after him because he ignored her and didn't wait for backup. Had it been Jack, he would have come up to Mitchell and smacked him around with his hat yelling at the top of his lungs berating him for his stupidity...and would have lectured him on the difference between heroism and foolishness. I don't think Sam would have been as harsh but I do think she should have said something.

Here's my little scenario as to what to me would have made more sense...

Sam (angry): What the hell were you doing?
Cam: Got us here, didn't I?
Sam: Not the point, Mitchell.
Cam: Sam, I'm not in a mood to...
Sam (interrupting): Cameron, I'm sorry about your friend. I really am. But the next time you unnecessarily endanger yourself, the team and the mission because you're having a bad day...
*Noises from outside*
Cam: Uh Sam...I know I deserve this, but could it wait until we get home?
*Sam finishes with the crystals and glares at him briefly before tempering her emotions*
Sam: If we all go we could be cut off with no way of getting back off the ship.
Daniel: So, business as usual then?
*Cam and Daniel provide cover fire as Sam sets a timed charge on the crystals*
Sam: Okay...let's go!
*the three as a TEAM go on the ring platform and a second or so after they ring up to the ship, the charge detonates...taking out the crystals and the Jaffa who entered the small room. Sam, Daniel and Cam as a TEAM go throughout the ship, taking out the Jaffa until they all come upon Teal'c and Bra'tac and Ba'al...the rest would be essentially the same*

The point is that Mitchell is supposedly a Colonel, supposedly with training and supposedly qualified to be on the frontline team defending earth. He should be able to set aside his personal feelings to get the job done not charge up the hill in hero mode, disregarding the person leading the operation and ignoring common sense all for the sake of showing he's still brash and impetuous.

He proved to me at least he has no business being on any team of this nature...at least not until he can grow up and deal with his issues without endangering the others.

GhostPoet
January 31st, 2006, 11:45 AM
Was what Mitchell did reckless? Yes...but he also saw the opportunity.

If Mitchell hadn't pulled a rambo...Baal's ship would have taken off long before SG-1 (who was pinned down) could have gotten to it in time.

It wwas Mitchell's moving in to take out the gun turrent that allowed for SG-1 to make it to the ship in time. After that there was no time to regroup, they had to get to the ship right away. Not stand around dicussing it. And once the team got there, Sam told him to go.

scifi woman
January 31st, 2006, 12:57 PM
Was what Mitchell did reckless? Yes...but he also saw the opportunity.

If Mitchell hadn't pulled a rambo...Baal's ship would have taken off long before SG-1 (who was pinned down) could have gotten to it in time.

It wwas Mitchell's moving in to take out the gun turrent that allowed for SG-1 to make it to the ship in time. After that there was no time to regroup, they had to get to the ship right away. Not stand around dicussing it. And once the team got there, Sam told him to go.

I agree.

Folks, this is Sci-Fi Channel ENTERTAINMENT -- not the Military Channel.

Cam's actions were a throw-back to all the WWII movies, (John Wayne, Gary Cooper, et al recklessly taking out the machine gun on the hilll....) you know, the "stuff dreams are made of". In this particular case, turning on your TV and watching one hour of WOW entertainment.

Whether he should have made that charge up the hill or not isn't the real question here. This question that the PTB really want to know is:

Were you entertained? Did you enjoy the hour watching our SG-1 team fighting, screwing up, making mistakes, getting caught by the bad guys and getting saved?

I sure was.

Uber
January 31st, 2006, 01:09 PM
I agree.

Folks, this is Sci-Fi Channel ENTERTAINMENT -- not the Military Channel.

Cam's actions were a throw-back to all the WWII movies, (John Wayne, Gary Cooper, et al recklessly taking out the machine gun on the hilll....) you know, the "stuff dreams are made of". In this particular case, turning on your TV and watching one hour of WOW entertainment.

Whether he should have made that charge up the hill or not isn't the real question here. This question that the PTB really want to know is:

Were you entertained? Did you enjoy the hour watching our SG-1 team fighting, screwing up, making mistakes, getting caught by the bad guys and getting saved?

I sure was.I'm glad you enjoyed it. Honestly...not being snarky here.

For me I saw it as yet another opportunity for TPTB to show us how great Super!Cam is, to show us his impetuous nature in action...and it made me cringe. I like my heroes to have flaws and angst, but I don't like it when it threatens the safety of the others because they can't reign it in.

And while it is entertainment, they usually don't allow their leading characters to disregard military protocol and go off half cocked. Never has there been an incident in my memory where a team member ran off and did things his/her way because they were angry at the world and had no regard for orders or the safety of the team.

The show is about the team working together to solve things...not a Lone Ranger going off to take care of business by himself, ignoring the mission leader in the process.

And the idea of him...all by himself...wandering around a Goa'uld mothership taking out all the Jaffa...all by himself...SCREAMS Super!Cam. Further, since when does SG-1 worry that they might be trapped on a mothership? That's what they do. I just don't buy Sam sending a very green Mitchell...all by himself...onto that ship...all by himself...to rescue Teal'c...all by himself.

I can't suspend disbelief that far.

warmbeachbrat
January 31st, 2006, 01:10 PM
But we needed to see it Skydiver. Further I don't remember Sam ever EVER endangering a mission or the team because she was having a bad day. I don't remember her ever putting her personal feelings above the team for that matter...nor do I ever remember her disrespecting Jack and disregarding his orders because of her bad mood.

From the transcript for Paradise Lost (and I'm not passing judgment on whether she is right or wrong in this episode--it's just an example of when her personal feelings were very much involved):

Scene: Ruins

The scientists are packing up. Sam walks in.

CARTER: I covered as much territory as the range of the UAV will allow.

TEAL’C: Have you received word from the Tok’ra?

CARTER: Yeah, they responded and said they didn’t know when one of their operatives with access to a ship would be able to help us.. what are they doing?

TEAL’C: I believe they have completed their analyses.

CARTER: Excuse me? Where’s Colonel O’Neill? I don’t see him, do you? Did you guys find him while I was gone?

LEE: We’ve been here for a week and I’m not sure, but I’m pretty certain we could all spend the rest of our natural lives trying to figure out exactly how this thing works. Do you know what? Even if I could snap my fingers and turn it on right now, I’m beginning to doubt whether it would determine where it sent Colonel O’Neill. I’d bet almost anything that the targeting data is in the artefact that Colonel Maybourne used to open that doorway.

CARTER: I say when we’re done here.

LEE: With all due respect Major, I will submit my report to General Hammond. If he’s prepared to commit to a long term analysis project, I’m happy to come back, with my big suitcase. But until then, if you’ll excuse me?


And if I've read one post, I've read a hundred bemoaning Sam's lack of judgment in the episode Gemini (which I don't share, by the way--what else could she have done?).

I'm not knocking Sam--please don't take it that way--I'm trying to point out that Mitchell, Sam, and actually, probably every single member of the SGC has done something not quite kosher or in the grip of strong emotion. Other people have given quite interesting insights on Cam's actions, so I won't cover territory previously addressed.

Uber
January 31st, 2006, 01:26 PM
From the transcript for Paradise Lost (and I'm not passing judgment on whether she is right or wrong in this episode--it's just an example of when her personal feelings were very much involved):

Scene: Ruins

The scientists are packing up. Sam walks in.

CARTER: I covered as much territory as the range of the UAV will allow.

TEAL’C: Have you received word from the Tok’ra?

CARTER: Yeah, they responded and said they didn’t know when one of their operatives with access to a ship would be able to help us.. what are they doing?

TEAL’C: I believe they have completed their analyses.

CARTER: Excuse me? Where’s Colonel O’Neill? I don’t see him, do you? Did you guys find him while I was gone?

LEE: We’ve been here for a week and I’m not sure, but I’m pretty certain we could all spend the rest of our natural lives trying to figure out exactly how this thing works. Do you know what? Even if I could snap my fingers and turn it on right now, I’m beginning to doubt whether it would determine where it sent Colonel O’Neill. I’d bet almost anything that the targeting data is in the artefact that Colonel Maybourne used to open that doorway.

CARTER: I say when we’re done here.

LEE: With all due respect Major, I will submit my report to General Hammond. If he’s prepared to commit to a long term analysis project, I’m happy to come back, with my big suitcase. But until then, if you’ll excuse me?


And if I've read one post, I've read a hundred bemoaning Sam's lack of judgment in the episode Gemini (which I don't share, by the way--what else could she have done?).

I'm not knocking Sam--please don't take it that way--I'm trying to point out that Mitchell, Sam, and actually, probably every single member of the SGC has done something not quite kosher or in the grip of strong emotion. Other people have given quite interesting insights on Cam's actions, so I won't cover territory previously addressed.Sam didn't disobey orders in Paradise Lost. Sam didn't put anyone in danger in Paradise Lost. She was upset...no doubt...and over the years we've seen all of them go through one emotional roller coaster or another. But she did not do anything that could potentially compromise the safety of her team.

Gemini...there's a great post by golfbooy that I copied to the Gemini thread which lays out pretty clearly that they each responded to the situation presented to them in a typically proactive fashion and weren't as out of character as some people bemoan.

In Stronghold, this was the heat of battle, where you have to have a clear head. You can't afford to be impetuous and hot headed or people die. That's why they're there...because they are the best of the best and should be able to set aside personal issues to do the job.

With Mitchell, the supposed leader or co-leader, we saw a man who was so wrapped up in his anger and grief that he ran off half cocked and disregarded orders and his team in the process. I don't find that heroic or endearing. I find it stupid and irresponsible.

Skydiver
January 31st, 2006, 01:35 PM
while i do think that we should have seen sam jumping cam's tush, on the mission isn't the time or place. after would be better

we will never see it. just liek we never saw her put dr lee back in his place after he disregarded his orders and bailed.

why?

cause the writers don't like dealing with things like reality...not when they get in the way of the story. cam needed to pull a rambo cause, well he is the Hero. he is SuperCam!!! the savior of the show and holder of the almighty ratings god ;)

cam will always get a freebie simply because his name is first in the credits so he's exempt from anything approaching reality.

he's also a marty sue and, well marty sue's that pull rambos are simply patted on the back and welcomed into the club with the cool kids.

For the sake of the character, i really wish the writers would stop doing this to him. stop writing him like a hero, stop making him exempt from the rules and stop adjusting reality to make him fit.

they may be making things easier for themselves in teh short run, but in the long run they're creating a character that's almost comical in teh fact that he's teflon....nothing sticks

whatswiththehairtealc
January 31st, 2006, 01:57 PM
wow, this episode sucks, i watched it twice to make sure, and yup it sucks!! i cant place my finger on it but it was just the most boring episode since s1E2.

warmbeachbrat
January 31st, 2006, 02:04 PM
Gemini...there's a great post by golfbooy that I copied to the Gemini thread which lays out pretty clearly that they each responded to the situation presented to them in a typically proactive fashion and weren't as out of character as some people bemoan.

In Stronghold, this was the heat of battle, where you have to have a clear head. You can't afford to be impetuous and hot headed or people die. That's why they're there...because they are the best of the best and should be able to set aside personal issues to do the job.

With Mitchell, the supposed leader or co-leader, we saw a man who was so wrapped up in his anger and grief that he ran off half cocked and disregarded orders and his team in the process. I don't find that heroic or endearing. I find it stupid and irresponsible.

I totally agree about Gemini--I referenced golfbooy's really wonderful post in the best of tournament when Gemini was in danger of being voted out to try to delay it's exit (to no avail, alas).

Did you see any of the following quotes?


Mitchell's run for it - made sense to me ( I am not a military person though). He saw a chance to take out the guy on the hill with the big gun - he checked with the soldiers next to him ( I noted this as just watched the ep) who nodded they would back him up and he took off with them covering him. It was a quickly planned move that worked. Good idea I would say. There was no time to check with Sam for the order as she was on the other side with Daniel.


I see your point and I don't disagree; I just don't see it as heinous an offense as some others do, probably because I don't think he was risking the lives of others any more than they were at risk for being on the mission in the first place. I don't have every episode memorized, but I'm sure at some point someone yelled, "Cover me!" and ran out into a firefight without giving the team time to discuss it. So, Mitchell didn't yell "Cover me!" but that also means that he didn't expect them to risk their lives laying down cover fire while he did the same thing the person yelling, "Cover me!" did. I guess because I see many westerns/action movies that do this, that it didn't affect me like it did some people.


Was what Mitchell did reckless? Yes...but he also saw the opportunity.

If Mitchell hadn't pulled a rambo...Baal's ship would have taken off long before SG-1 (who was pinned down) could have gotten to it in time.

It wwas Mitchell's moving in to take out the gun turrent that allowed for SG-1 to make it to the ship in time. After that there was no time to regroup, they had to get to the ship right away. Not stand around dicussing it. And once the team got there, Sam told him to go.

I thought these were all good points, that should mitigate a great deal of the criticism towards Mitchell. Another point--Ferguson was pointing out that he wasn't criticizing Mitchell, he was trying to show him that his faults could also be his strengths. That the impetuousness and impatience can sometimes break through paralysis in the heat of battle and win the day.

Also, I totally did NOT get the Supercam vibe that so many are bringing up. I suppose if he'd waited behind like a good little soldier, some would say what use is he, why is he on the team, why doesn't he take initiative like a leader?

Drat! I didn't plan on becoming a Cameron Mitchell apologist, but I'm getting mighty tired of all the piling on. He can do no right in some eyes, and with the worst spin put on any of his actions and behaviors, I just don't think it's being fair to the character.

the dancer of spaz
January 31st, 2006, 02:14 PM
But we needed to see it Skydiver. Further I don't remember Sam ever EVER endangering a mission or the team because she was having a bad day. I don't remember her ever putting her personal feelings above the team for that matter...nor do I ever remember her disrespecting Jack and disregarding his orders because of her bad mood.

We needed Sam to come up to him and ream him for rushing on ahead and forcing her and Daniel to rush after him because he ignored her and didn't wait for backup. Had it been Jack, he would have come up to Mitchell and smacked him around with his hat yelling at the top of his lungs berating him for his stupidity...and would have lectured him on the difference between heroism and foolishness. I don't think Sam would have been as harsh but I do think she should have said something.

Here's my little scenario as to what to me would have made more sense...

Sam (angry): What the hell were you doing?
Cam: Got us here, didn't I?
Sam: Not the point, Mitchell.
Cam: Sam, I'm not in a mood to...
Sam (interrupting): Cameron, I'm sorry about your friend. I really am. But the next time you unnecessarily endanger yourself, the team and the mission because you're having a bad day...
*Noises from outside*
Cam: Uh Sam...I know I deserve this, but could it wait until we get home?
*Sam finishes with the crystals and glares at him briefly before tempering her emotions*
Sam: If we all go we could be cut off with no way of getting back off the ship.
Daniel: So, business as usual then?
*Cam and Daniel provide cover fire as Sam sets a timed charge on the crystals*
Sam: Okay...let's go!
*the three as a TEAM go on the ring platform and a second or so after they ring up to the ship, the charge detonates...taking out the crystals and the Jaffa who entered the small room. Sam, Daniel and Cam as a TEAM go throughout the ship, taking out the Jaffa until they all come upon Teal'c and Bra'tac and Ba'al...the rest would be essentially the same*

The point is that Mitchell is supposedly a Colonel, supposedly with training and supposedly qualified to be on the frontline team defending earth. He should be able to set aside his personal feelings to get the job done not charge up the hill in hero mode, disregarding the person leading the operation and ignoring common sense all for the sake of showing he's still brash and impetuous.

He proved to me at least he has no business being on any team of this nature...at least not until he can grow up and deal with his issues without endangering the others.

Yeah... soooo... This is what's gonna play through my mind every time I think about Stronghold from now on. It's much less offensive to the mind. Thanks! :D

ShardsofGlass
January 31st, 2006, 03:36 PM
Sam didn't disobey orders in Paradise Lost. Sam didn't put anyone in danger in Paradise Lost. She was upset...no doubt...and over the years we've seen all of them go through one emotional roller coaster or another. But she did not do anything that could potentially compromise the safety of her team.

Gemini...there's a great post by golfbooy that I copied to the Gemini thread which lays out pretty clearly that they each responded to the situation presented to them in a typically proactive fashion and weren't as out of character as some people bemoan.

In Stronghold, this was the heat of battle, where you have to have a clear head. You can't afford to be impetuous and hot headed or people die. That's why they're there...because they are the best of the best and should be able to set aside personal issues to do the job.

With Mitchell, the supposed leader or co-leader, we saw a man who was so wrapped up in his anger and grief that he ran off half cocked and disregarded orders and his team in the process. I don't find that heroic or endearing. I find it stupid and irresponsible.

That's one interpretation, but it's not necessarily the correct one. Another interpretation is that Mitchell saw an opening and took it, knowing that the ship was going to take off any moment. What's the point of the mission? Being a team and practicing good communication skills? No, it's to rescue Teal'c.

You can assume the worst of Mitchell, that he was running up the hill to be a showoff or because he can't controle his emotions. Though I'm not sure why anyone would want to assume the worst. Or you could assume that time was of the essence and that he was determined to rescue Teal'c before it was too late. I see it as someone doing what he needed to do.

How do you know that stopping and waiting for Carter and Daniel wouldn't have been the worst possible decision in the world? How do you know that the ship wouldn't have taken off while they regrouped? In battle, I imagine you have to make split-second decisions, which is what Mitchell did. Plus, it's not like he was pursuing his own agenda or something. He was doing what they all wanted to do, which was to get Teal'c off that ship.

KillerMercury
January 31st, 2006, 04:29 PM
He certainly has the potential for being a ladies' man! LOL. But I don't see it happening on screen, yet. Yes, he's been bold about showing his appreciation for women and made allusions to past encounters [not all successful, it seems], but he's in his late 30's, early 40's and I would expect him to have had a few liaisons. This may be developed in the future and you may well be proven correct, I'm just not seeing it now.

I hope they do, sort of how Daniel was getting all the girls the first few seasons.

ellenrose
January 31st, 2006, 05:06 PM
He certainly has the potential for being a ladies' man! LOL. But I don't see it happening on screen, yet. Yes, he's been bold about showing his appreciation for women and made allusions to past encounters [not all successful, it seems], but he's in his late 30's, early 40's and I would expect him to have had a few liaisons. This may be developed in the future and you may well be proven correct, I'm just not seeing it now

ChillinThe Most Good points. Always nice to have a man on a show who likes the ladies. One point about Mitchell's age though. In Collateral Damage he said that he watched the first shuttle launch with his Dad when he was ten. That would make him 35 now as that launch took place in 1981. This may explain why he has a healthy interest in socializing with the opposite sex - as he is not an old guy of 40 ;) .

Of course we all know Ben Browder is 43 - the guy gets younger and younger. Go Ben. :cameron:

KillerMercury
January 31st, 2006, 05:24 PM
ChillinThe Most Good points. Always nice to have a man on a show who likes the ladies. One point about Mitchell's age though. In Collateral Damage he said that he watched the first shuttle launch with his Dad when he was ten. That would make him 35 now as that launch took place in 1981. This may explain why he has a healthy interest in socializing with the opposite sex - as he is not an old guy of 40 ;) .

Of course we all know Ben Browder is 43 - the guy gets younger and younger. Go Ben. :cameron:

I thought he watched the first mission to the moon, which was in 1969.

ellenrose
January 31st, 2006, 06:30 PM
I thought he watched the first mission to the moon, which was in 1969.

I checked just now. Mitchell said in Collateral Damage they watched the "first shuttle launch". That took place in 1981.

Or are you confusing him with John Crichton who watched his Dad go on one of the moon launches as I recall ( scapers rush to correct me now). ;)

Johnquixote
January 31st, 2006, 07:14 PM
Mitchell running into battle, at first I thought he was being rash in impatient to move ahead to Teal'c.
But, after rewatching the episode 3 times, I saw something different. First off, just when Cam is beginning to advance forward to the hill, a man yells "GO GO GO". He had cover fire. Also, I don't see how his actions put others in danger, there were atleast thirty guys out there, and there was a cannon blasting at them. He was the closest, he had suppressive fire supporting him. He took an oppurtunity that he saw, which is what I saw mostly in his friend telling him to be who he was. When Cam sees an oppurtunity, he takes it. Teal'c was in danger, and the rescue force was pinned down by a cannon. I did see impatience through the fact that he did not communicate with Sam. What I saw, was Cameron successfully charge up a hill with suppressive fire supporting him, gain position, and destroy the cannon. Then he charges the mothership, again, taking the oppurtunity, but impatiently, hot-headed-ly. As someone before mentioned, there is an appropriate time for acting quickly when time is of the essence. If it wasn't for the rings not being operable, he would have flawlessly rescued Teal'c. Luckily, he had Sam and Teal'c backing him up.
I found his charging the cannon completely logical.
I found his charging the mothership appropriate due to time.

My first interpretation was that the writers were letting Mitchell charge in like crazy and win, then I thought how bad a decision his charge was, then I considered the circumstances and found his charge right for the situation.
Mitchell does need to improve teamwork in ground combat situations, and improve his impatience, hopefully, his last sentence of the episode, "I'm still working on that," refers to him trying to find himself and correct his flaws.

ellenrose
January 31st, 2006, 08:04 PM
Mitchell running into battle, at first I thought he was being rash in impatient to move ahead to Teal'c.
But, after rewatching the episode 3 times, I saw something different. First off, just when Cam is beginning to advance forward to the hill, a man yells "GO GO GO". He had cover fire. Also, I don't see how his actions put others in danger, there were atleast thirty guys out there, and there was a cannon blasting at them. He was the closest, he had suppressive fire supporting him. He took an oppurtunity that he saw, which is what I saw mostly in his friend telling him to be who he was. When Cam sees an oppurtunity, he takes it. Teal'c was in danger, and the rescue force was pinned down by a cannon. I did see impatience through the fact that he did not communicate with Sam. What I saw, was Cameron successfully charge up a hill with suppressive fire supporting him, gain position, and destroy the cannon. Then he charges the mothership, again, taking the oppurtunity, but impatiently, hot-headed-ly. As someone before mentioned, there is an appropriate time for acting quickly when time is of the essence. If it wasn't for the rings not being operable, he would have flawlessly rescued Teal'c. Luckily, he had Sam and Teal'c backing him up.
I found his charging the cannon completely logical.
I found his charging the mothership appropriate due to time.

My first interpretation was that the writers were letting Mitchell charge in like crazy and win, then I thought how bad a decision his charge was, then I considered the circumstances and found his charge right for the situation.
Mitchell does need to improve teamwork in ground combat situations, and improve his impatience, hopefully, his last sentence of the episode, "I'm still working on that," refers to him trying to find himself and correct his flaws.

Good summary and I agree with you. I did notice the other soldier waving him on but missed the yelling Go Go Go. If you look at the sequence again he was not being reckless - just going in at the right moment to save Teal'c. The others could not as were in the wrong position behind the rock.

It is possible that what he did in the past that required his friend to save him may have been more reckless - we are not told. What is important is that he was able to act and perform in battle in spite of what he had been through in the past.

As for his shoot up on the ship - did any scapers out there have a moment when they wondered where Winona was? I did. :)

PugGate
January 31st, 2006, 08:49 PM
I was reading the review of Stronghold and I noticed something odd. I know its a little nitpicky, but when Livi Dolgin said they should just give Ferguson a Tok'ra symbiote, I think Livi missed one small thing. Ferguson has a chunk of metal stuck in his head and I'm not sure how the whole 'Tok'ra healy thingy' works, but I don't think they can cure him of shrapnel.
With the whole Al'kesh being shot down, when are the Goa'uld going to get a clue and put shield generator or something on their bombers????
I thought Landry's speech was really cool, especially having about half the SG teams going after Ba'al

Chaka's_Mum
January 31st, 2006, 11:49 PM
Wow - what an interesting episode. A bit more background and angst for Cam, and a bit more explanation of who he is and why.

I did feel sorry for that poor, inoffensive coffee machine, though.

There's been so much discussion about Cam's motive for rushing off to take out the staff cannon that I think all I'm about to do is repeat what others have stated already. But I'm going to do it anyway.:)

Yes, it was impetuous and (as I've only seen it once, so far - have to wait until Saturday for a repeat viewing) came across at the first impression as almost arrogantly reckless. Maybe Sam would be perfectly justified in tearing a strip off him when they got back.

On the other hand, there are times - at least in TV shows - when an act of impetuosity under fire is the only way to break the stalemate. (that sounds impressive! I like that!;) ). Ba'al preparing to do a runner in his Funky Space Pyramid was really what threw a spanner into the works and drastically reduced their options - sometimes, no matter how good a plan, the scenario you've planned for changes drastically, and your plan is suddenly no good anymore. If you can't make an 'on the spot' change of plan to counter the changes, then your mission failure rate is going to grab official attention pretty quickly. After all, SG-1 haven't got where they have (or saved the world n-number of times) by sticking rigidly to the mission plan at all costs. Sometimes you just gotta improvise. Cam was in the right position to do a bit of plan changing, so he did. Whether his actions were spiced with angsty elements will always be a matter for debate.

Mind you, I was most impressed with Teal'c's faith in his colleagues. Here he is, pretending to be brainwashed, with Bra'tac in front of him and Ba'al ordering him to fire the staff weapon. How much longer could he have dragged out the 'You are finished, old man and I'm going to off you now' dramatic pause before the Sartorially Impressive One twigged him?

Anyone else would have turned to Cam afterwards and say 'What the $&^$)£**$^ took you so long?????'. Just as well Teal'c is so exquisitely courteous...

Stricken
February 1st, 2006, 12:52 AM
In Stronghold Stargate SG-1 returned to its roots…SG teams killing Jaffa. We had 8 years of it and it’s been something that for me has been sorely missed in Season 9. Stronghold was a Jaffa Politics episode so Peter Deluise will be happy…he loves them. It was about time that we got Bra’tac in an episode for more than five minutes, and he really came into his own, what with his friends being brainwashed and he trying to save their souls.

So the essence of the episode was Jaffa being brainwashed so the Baal and his merry men, the Goa’ulds, could be the leaders of the Jaffa, telling them that he will defend them against the might of the Ori. You have to believe Baal in his plea to Teal’c, if only because his voice changed from Goa’uld to normal. He wanted to protect the Jaffa from the Ori, he didn’t care about the way they led their daily lives, just so long as he was in control of them when the Ori invaded.

Recently Ben has been given a chance to really get to grips with Cameron, and in this episode he had to admit to, perhaps to a stranger, that his friend was a better pilot than him, which makes you think that if Ferguson hadn’t been incapacitated he would have been flying over Antarctica two years ago and then most likely been given a position on a SG team. Cam used his position to help his friend to get him in to the best hospital in the world, one of which uses technologies not currently available to others, most likely Goa’uld but we will never know. Mitchell did the right thing in my book by using the technology they got from “Collateral Damage” to allow Ferguson to see what Mitchell had been up to over the past year or so.

The fact that Bra’tac was unable to trust other Jaffa is a real means for concern, as normally he can find at least one Jaffa who will help. And with Teal’c the strongest warrior in all the Jaffa lands being captured should concern everyone. We finally see the Memory Recall Device again the little piece of technology that caused so many problems several years ago resurfacing again in times of trouble.

The rescue was daring, to say the least and Landry’s line “Teal’c is family…And no one screws with family” which shows us that Landry is starting to become on of the SG family and rallied the troops just like Hammond would have done, like he did when SG-1 was captured several years ago. When on the planet, Mitchell was a man on a mission, he intended on killing the Jaffa, freeing Teal’c and getting home as quickly as possible to get back to his friend. He killed several Jaffa and let rip on the guy on the gun tower, he won’t be worshipping Baal any time soon. Something which got me was that when Bra’tac went down in the Alkesh, no one radioed him to check on him, unless it was cut for time, but it was cleared up when he was bought before Teal’c and Baal.

Just when you think that Teal’c could have turned against everything that he had believed in…again, but then Mitchell burst in zatting all Jaffa in sight and Teal’c swinging the staff round and killing one of the Baal clones, Baal is still out there all 3,4,5 of him but he can wait until next year. Teal’c was only able to stay on our side thanks this “To resist the influence of others, knowledge of oneself is most important” which makes you wonder what Teal’c was thinking.


The one loophole in this episode was the Jaffa catching Mitchell and then saying freeze now I didn’t know that Jaffa said that, only Kree.

Stronghold recieves a S.G.C rating of 8 out of 9 Chevrons!
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Skydiver
February 1st, 2006, 10:24 AM
The one loophole in this episode was the Jaffa catching Mitchell and then saying freeze now I didn’t know that Jaffa said that, only Kree.

Stronghold recieves a S.G.C rating of 8 out of 9 Chevrons!
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sometimes you hit a writer's 'gimme'

such as in BSG last week when the present capt of the pegasus has CUBAN cigars in his stateroom. CUBAN?????? in a galaxy far, far away?????

Elite Anubis Guard
February 1st, 2006, 10:33 AM
Well...I liked all the seperate stories and particulary Cams, but it seems to me..the team was too spread out. I really enjoyed the action as well.

the dancer of spaz
February 1st, 2006, 10:46 AM
sometimes you hit a writer's 'gimme'

such as in BSG last week when the present capt of the pegasus has CUBAN cigars in his stateroom. CUBAN?????? in a galaxy far, far away?????

Bah! That's awesome. :cameron:

Uber
February 1st, 2006, 02:10 PM
I rewatched part of the ending again and what I saw confirmed my original opinion.

I had no problem with him taking out the battery all by himself, although I found the sequence a bit forced. I also got the feeling through the entire ground battle sequence that Sam felt the need to keep checking up on Mitchell...keep an eye on him, for whatever reason.

However, after taking out the battery, Mitchell keeps going up the hill. Sam radios him and orders him to wait for backup.

He doesn't stop and he doesn't respond.

Sam and Daniel look at each other and she signals that they have to follow him.

So like I said before, Mitchell ignored the mission leader's orders to hold back and wait for backup forcing them to rush after him.

gateslacker
February 1st, 2006, 02:24 PM
And that's the point, isn't it? He hasn't been fighting intergalatic bad guys for 8 years, so why is he co-leading SG-1! I would not have minded Mitchell's behavior on the battlefield at all if he had just communicated to his TEAM members what he was doing! .

Well, in the beginning none of them had any experience and I guess the same argument could be said for Daniel re:being on a frontline team when he had no experience whatsoever in military operations. But, I still maintain that they all have made mistakes...and learned from them. Let's hope Mitchell does the same. I do agree he should have communicated what he was doing. Isn't that why they wear those radio thingies :samanime20:

gateslacker
February 1st, 2006, 03:06 PM
Drat! I didn't plan on becoming a Cameron Mitchell apologist, but I'm getting mighty tired of all the piling on. He can do no right in some eyes, and with the worst spin put on any of his actions and behaviors, I just don't think it's being fair to the character.


LOL, I agree. Kindof reminds me of a time long past, sometime around season six, when another new character could do nothing right. Oh, but I am sure that isn't the same thing:jonas18:

I am enjoying the progression of Mitchell, getting to know him. I don't see Super!Cam nor do I see him being the death and demise of the team and the show. But, I suspend disbelief pretty easily(unless it involves medical goofs which I am keen to pick up on) and I tend to actually take all characters and plot lines at face value. I am not a military expert nor do I play one on TV so I really can't critique any sort of military action or expected bahavior on the part of a team leader. I didn't really question Mitchell's actions in the episode. I had to come on here to see his actions could be interpreted differently...LOL.

One good thing I see, at least the show is still inspiring spirited debate. If it didn't then it surely would be dead.:D

ETA: I knew there was something else I wanted to say but forgot. It involves Baal, as in Best. Goauld. Ever. LOL!!!

Mattathias2.0
February 1st, 2006, 03:10 PM
Hasn't O'Neill ignored mission orders before?

Mattathias

jafacakes
February 1st, 2006, 07:27 PM
I quite liked this episode, it felt like one from the earlier seasons.
One thing that is nagging me is, rather than taking the alien memory device to his friend, wouldn't it have been more productive if Mitchell had asked Sam to use the healing device on him? Or sugest he become a tokra?